Ep: 1 - David Allen talks about the New Edition of Getting Things Done

您正在收听《搞定》播客，这是大卫·艾伦公司官方播客的第一集，我们将与大卫·艾伦进行深度对话。

You're listening to Getting Things Done, the official podcast of The David Allen Company, episode one with our feature conversation with David Allen.

欢迎各位收听《搞定》第一集，简称GTD。本播客旨在帮助您踏上学习无压力高效能艺术的旅程。

Welcome everyone to the first episode of Getting Things Done, GTD for shorthand, and this podcast is all about helping you along your journey learning the art of stress free productivity.

我是安德鲁·杰伊·梅森，我做这个播客的目标是帮助您首先明白，在学习系统化思考方式的过程中，您并不孤单。

Well, name is Andrew Jay Mason, and my goal in this podcast is really to help you first understand that you're not alone in learning the systematic approach to thinking.

我希望这个播客能帮助全球各地的GTD实践者彼此认识，并让我们共同深入思考自己正在思考的问题。

My hope is that this podcast will help introduce, fellow GTDers to each other all around the world, and it'll really help us all think about what we're thinking about.

那么，您能从这个播客中期待些什么呢？

So what can you expect from this podcast?

每一集都将带您近距离接触那些正在一线实践GTD方法的人。

Well, each episode is designed to bring you up close and personal with somebody that's in the trenches practicing GTD.

您将听到一些或许广为人知的人物，也可能是一些不太出名但把GTD实践得非常出色的人。

You're gonna hear from some maybe well known people and maybe also some people that aren't quite as well known but are practicing GTD really well.

此外，这里还将设有问答环节为您解答疑问，并提供大卫和公司最新动态的独家预告。

And it's also going to be a place where you can get some questions answered with a q and a segment as well as find some exclusive previews of what David and the company are up to.

这个播客还关乎那一点额外的优势。

This podcast is also about that extra edge.

很多人没有取得进展，是因为他们不了解所有可用的资源。

A lot of people don't make progress because they aren't aware of all the different resources that are available to them.

例如，你知道有一个名为GTD Connect的志同道合者在线社区吗？

For instance, did you know there's an online community of like minded members called GTD Connect?

这是一个你可以互相支持、获取独家访谈，并提前参与众多对话的地方，包括今天与大卫·艾伦的访谈。

It's a place where you can help each other on your journey, get exclusive interviews, and early access to a host of conversations, including today's interview with David Allen.

如果你想了解更多信息，请前往gettingthingsdone.com/podcast注册，别忘了听到播客末尾关于新会员如何获得大幅折扣的信息。

If you'd like to check it out, head on over to gettingthingsdone.com/podcast to sign up today, and stay tuned to the end of the podcast to hear about how new members can get a significant discount.

它只是帮助你走向GTD精通之路的一个工具。

It's just a tool to help you on your path of GTD mastery.

说到精通，正如我提到的，今天的特别访谈对象就是大卫本人。

Well, speaking of mastery, as I mentioned, today's feature conversation is with David himself.

等到本集发布时，他的《搞定》第二版已经出版了。

And by the time this episode releases, his second edition of the book Getting Things Done will have already been published.

那么，不废话了，我非常兴奋今天我们能与戴维·艾伦本人对话。

And without further ado, I am so excited that we're talking with David Allen himself today.

我觉得，没有什么比与这一方法的创始人对话更好的方式来启动这个播客了。

Figured what better way to launch a podcast than to be talking with the man behind the methodology himself.

谢谢您，戴维，今天能加入我们。

So thank you, David, for joining us today.

嗨，安德鲁。

Hey, Andrew.

一切都好。

All good.

那些长期研究GTD的人可能知道，它最初是属于高管教练以及每天面临成千上万决策的人的领域，但没想到，现在这种情况已经发生在每个人身上。

People that have been studying GTD for some time may know that it kind of started out as the realm and domain of, you know, executive coaching and and those that were faced with thousands of decisions every day, but lo and behold, that's now happening to to everyone.

我知道这很可能是有些人第一次接触GTD，所以我想，站在他们的角度，当有人下载了一个名为《搞定》的播客，发现自己很忙，觉得这听起来像是自己应该做的事情。

So, I knew this could very likely be someone's first exposure to GTD, so I guess, you know, the question standing in their shoes and someone downloads a podcast called Getting Things Done, and you know, I'm busy, that sounds like something I should be doing.

那么，什么是《搞定》？从哪里开始是最好的第一步？

You know, what is Getting Things Done, and and where's a good first place to start?

这是一套最佳实践，是我过去三十年里发现、整理和拼凑出来的，主要是关于如何为你的大脑腾出空间。

Well, it's a set of best practices that I recognized, uncovered, cobbled together, you know, over the last thirty years, basically about how do you get room in your head.

而有了大脑空间之后，大多数人——尤其是刚开始的高管们——需要这片空间来战略性地思考，专注于有意义的事情，摆脱那些占据他们思维和精力的干扰。

And, you know, what you do with room in your head, you know, for most people, certainly for executives to begin with, they need the room to be able to think strategically, to focus on meaningful stuff, to get rid of distractions that were hanging up their mind and their energy.

所以，从我早期被吸引到清空思绪的阶段开始，你是怎么做到的？尤其是在生活变得更加复杂、涉及的事情越来越多的时候，你该如何实现？

So, you know, I guess, you know, from the early days when I was so attracted myself to clear space, you know, how do you get there and how do you do that, especially when your life gets more complicated and so many things involved in it.

因此，这其实关乎如何识别那些在消耗我们精力的事情，以及如何有效地掌控它们，从而对所有这些事情获得恰当的专注。

So, it was really about how to recognize what are the things that, you know, are pulling on our energy, how do we essentially get those things under control and get an appropriate focus about all of those?

大多数人过的生活比他们自己意识到的要复杂得多，那些‘本可以’、‘应该’、‘必须’、‘应当’之类的事情无处不在。

And most people live a much more complex life than they realize, all of their would, could, shoulds, need tos, ought tos, whatever.

所以，这仅仅是一种方法论，帮助你真正识别出这些事情，并在不必完成所有承诺事项的情况下，减轻它们对大脑造成的压力。

So, this was just a methodology about how do you actually both recognize what those things are and get the pressure of those off of your mind without necessarily having to finish everything you're committed to.

但这套实践方法其实并不难操作。

But it's not something with a set of practices that actually are quite easy to do.

它们不是你需要重新学习的新技能，但人们并不是天生就会做这些，也不会自动发生。

They're not like new skills that you need to learn, but people aren't born doing it and they don't happen automatically.

所以你确实需要在这件事上投入一些认知上的专注。

So you do actually have to put some cognitive focus on it.

所以这实际上关乎如何掌控事物，以及如何保持适当的专注。

So it's really about how do I get things under control and how do I stay appropriately focused.

这只是一套切实有效、从不失效的实践方法，能让这一切发生。

And it's just a set of practices that actually work without fail to make that happen.

是的，我喜欢这一点，你明白吗？发现原则，而不是创造产品。

Yeah, I love that, you know, uncovering principles versus, you know, creating product.

只是为了给新手做个倡导，他们可能已经尝试过其他方法或那些承诺能将他们的生产力提升到新高度的产品。

You know, just to be an advocate for the first timer, you know, they they, you know, maybe have tried other methodologies or other, you know, products that are promising to, you know, launch their productivity to a new level.

你提到过这一点，但究竟是什么让GTD脱颖而出？

And you touched on this, but what really does make GTD stand out?

我想关键在于，我意识到当事情奏效时、当事物从我们脑海中消失时，或者当我们状态好时，究竟有哪些行为让我们进入这种状态？

Well, think it is that case that what I did was recognize that what happens when things work, when things are off our mind, or what do we you know, when we're on, what are the behaviors that get us on?

因为我们都有状态更好的日子，你明白吗？是什么让这些日子更好，而其他日子却没那么理想？

Because we've all had better days than others, and you know, what makes for the better day versus those that aren't so so cool.

关键是理解背后的原则。

And it's really understanding the principles behind that.

我的意思是，每个听这段话的人，某时某刻都曾感到过压力或困惑，然后坐下来列了个清单，至少感觉稍微更有掌控感、更专注了。

I mean, everybody listening to this at some point has it, you know, at some point felt overwhelmed or confused, and sat down and made a list, and felt at least a little more controlled and a little more focused.

如果人们真的能逆向分析，弄清楚：这是怎么发生的？

And, you know, if people really reverse engineered, that is figured out, well, how did that happen?

我突然间改善了自己的状况，感觉更有掌控感、更专注了，但外部世界其实没有任何变化。

I suddenly have improved my situation to feel more in control and more focused and yet nothing in the external world has changed.

到底是什么改变了？

What what did change?

改变的是我与这个世界互动的方式，因为本质上，我把事情从脑子里清空了。

What changed was how I am engaged with my world changed because essentially, I got it out of my head.

所以，这些年来，这一切最终归结为一点，而过去十五年来的认知科学已经充分验证了这一点：你的大脑是用来产生想法的，而不是用来存储想法的。

So, you know, over all these years, it's come down to something that now cognitive science has validated in spades in the last ten or fifteen years, is that your head's for having ideas but not for holding them.

它本来就没设计成那样。

It wasn't designed for that.

它并没有进化到能同时追踪超过四个有意义的事物。

It didn't evolve to keep track of more than about four meaningful things at once.

你一直提到空间，以及这一切如何瞬间发生，很多人说，嘿，如果我有更多时间就好了，你觉得真是这样吗？

You keep mentioning space and how this all happens in an instant, and a lot of people say, you know, man, if I just had more time, do you think that's the case?

不是。

No.

如果人们有更多时间，他们只会用更多的焦虑和挫败感填满它，所以这是个好消息。

If people had more time, they filled up with as much angst and frustration as they currently have, so it's good news.

人们每天只有24小时，你知道的。

People only have 24, you know, of that.

你不需要更多这样的时间。

You don't need more of that.

但正如我所说，产生一个好主意、保持专注、充满爱意、创新或创造，需要多少时间呢？

But as I say, I mean, how much time does it take to have a good idea, or to be present, or to be loving, or to be innovative, or to be creative?

零。

Zero.

这些不需要空间。

Those don't take space.

它们确实需要空间，我的意思是，这些不占时间，但需要空间。

They do require, I mean, those don't take time, they do require space.

换句话说，我得在我的脑子里留出空间。

In other words, I gotta I have to have room in my head.

因为即使你有一个空闲的小时，如果你的头脑仍然被那些你还没能掌控或妥善处理的生活琐事塞满并分心，你还是会浪费掉那一个小时，而且感觉更糟。

Because even if you had a free, you know, quote a free hour, if your head is still clogged up and distracted by all of that stuff of life that you haven't yet gotten on top of or managed appropriately, you'll waste that hour and feel worse.

但如果你的生活井然有序、掌控得当，哪怕只有五分钟或两分钟的空闲时间，也能让你有机会产生一个很棒的创意，或者恰当地集中注意力、规划好今天下午的会议，或者安排好这一周的计划。

And yet, if you do have your life under control and are on top of it, you know, a free five minutes or two minutes, you know, can allow you room to have a really cool creative idea, or to be able to appropriately focus or direct yourself, you know, in terms of the meeting this afternoon, or you know, how you're planning the week.

我特别喜欢，就在过去几周，你的书出了新版，我刚开始读。

I love that just over the last couple of weeks, the next edition of your book has published and and have started working my way through that.

当有人听说一本书出了第二版时，我几乎能听到他们心想：‘哦，他发现了更多新原则。’

And and when somebody hears that a second edition of a book's been unpublished, I can almost hear them saying like, you know, okay, he's he's uncovered additional principles.

他们这样想对吗？

Are they right about that?

这些原则有不同吗？

Are the principles different?

还是说其他方面发生了变化？

Or or has something else changed?

不，这些原则完全没有改变。

No, the principles haven't changed at all.

正如我在2190年我们登陆木星时所说的，他们仍然需要某种能起到‘终点篮’作用的东西，仍然需要决定那些可能出现且可能有意义的事情的下一步行动。

As I say in, you know, 2190 when we land on Jupiter, they still need something that serves the function of an end basket, they still need to decide what are the next actions on things that show up that are potentially meaningful.

所以这些原则是永恒的，至少当你成为知识型工作者、摆脱了生存模式之后——那种仅仅为了活着、吃东西、不被吃掉而存在的状态，这正是你的大脑在非洲大草原上进化出来的功能。

So these principles are timeless, at least once you've become a knowledge worker and you've moved out of survival mode where you're just present, you know, just being present to stay alive and, you know, to eat and not be eaten, which is how your brain evolved on the savannah, was to be able to just do that.

而你的大脑对此处理得还不错。

And that's what your brain is okay and does pretty well.

但你的大脑无法有效追踪比这更多的事情。

What your brain doesn't do is keep track of much more than that.

因此，关于如何掌控事务的原则本身，就是那个简单的原则：把事情从脑子里清空，建立一个外部大脑。

And so, the principles themselves about how do I, you know, how do I stay in control of things is, you know, the simple principle called get it out of your head, build an external brain.

任何使用日历的人都已经在这样做了，实际上就是在实践这一原则。

Anybody who keeps a calendar is already doing that, is already, you know, implementing that principle.

所以，天啊，我的大脑根本记不住未来三周日历上这65件事，那我该怎么办？

So, well, wow, my head cannot keep track of these 65 things I've got on my calendar for the next three weeks, so what do you do with it?

你得把它们从脑子里拿出来，放到一个系统化的地方，同时还要养成一种行为习惯：相信自己会在合适的时间去查看它。

You get it out of your head, you park it in some systematic place and you also have a behavior that trusts you're going to look at that at the right time.

这些是基本原理，只是大多数人并没有真正应用这些原则来实现那种掌控感和专注力，这挺有意思的，也有些矛盾——我们其实都在这么做，都知道这一点，每个人在即将放长假前的一周都会感觉工作状态最好，因为他们那时只是在把所有‘应该’、‘可以’、‘必须’、‘需要’的事情都外部化，掌控它们，并与自己和他人重新协商这些承诺。

Well, those are basic principles, It's just that most people don't really apply those principles to achieve that kind of control and focus, which is kind of interesting, and it's somewhat paradoxical that we all do it, we all know it, everybody feels best about their job a week before they go on a big holiday because all they're doing is externalizing all the would, could, should, need tos, ought tos, and they're, you know, getting a handle on them and renegotiating all those commitments with themselves and with other people.

我只是建议人们把这种做法变成日常和每周的习惯，而不是只在每年一次时才做，这样才能获得那种清晰度和专注力。

I just suggest that people do that, you know, daily and weekly, not just yearly, to get get that level of of clarity and focus.

你知道，关于日历这件事，我觉得特别有意思。

You know, it's so interesting to me about, you know, the calendar.

人们对于把大脑的这部分功能外化、放在外部查看这件事，竟然如此接受，甚至觉得完全正常。

People are so okay with, so socially acceptable to be able to keep that part of your brain out of your head and be able to look at it externally.

那你认为，人们在把这种做法应用到生活其他方面时，为什么会感到焦虑呢？

What do you think some of the angst people feel about doing that with the rest of their life?

这从何而来？

Where does that come from?

我不知道，安德鲁。

I don't know, Andrew.

令我感到惊讶的是，三十年过去了，我仍在宣扬这一点，而这个世界依然普遍习惯把事情留在脑子里。

I I it's fascinating to me that I'm still preaching this after thirty years and that the world still has a huge habit of keeping stuff in their head.

我的一个工作假设是，把事情留在脑子里会给人一种虚假的掌控感。

My my my working hypothesis is that it gives people a false sense of control to keep it in your head.

你知道，大多数人并不愿意面对或承认自己与他人之间的所有承诺，所有那些属于自己的事情。

You know, most people don't want to look at or acknowledge, you know, all of their own commitments with themselves and with other people, all of their own stuff, if you will.

也许这正是问题的一部分所在。

Maybe that's part of what, you know, what it's about.

或者，人们只是太习惯于认为自己的大脑没问题，能记住所有需要在正确时间想起的事情，他们只是在这方面养成了坏习惯。

And or, people are just are so used to thinking that my head is fine and it'll remember anything that I need to remember at the right time, and they just have bad habits about that.

你知道，这其中一部分源于我们的社会和文化，至少我可以证明美国社会和文化确实如此，但你提到了一句话：‘你越优秀，就越得变得更好。’

You know, some of it's our society and culture, or at least, you know, I can attest to the American society and culture, but you mentioned the phrase, the better you get, the better you'd better get.

随着人们需要承担越来越多的决策，并处理更广泛的信息，我相信这种思维方式从‘最好有’变成了‘必须有’。

And, you know, as people become more and more responsible for a larger amount of decisions and ranging through larger amounts of information, you know, I'm sure this gap for this style of thinking goes from, you know, nice nice to have to, like, must have.

你认为，在那些不刻意采用这种思维方式的人，和那些真正这样做的之间，会不会出现一个越来越明显的绩效差距？

And do you think there's gonna be a noticeable performance gap that just continues to widen between those that don't intentionally think this way and and those that really do?

我认为会的。

I think so.

这种差距可能不像大多数人想象的那样明显，无论是从赚钱多少，还是物质上的所谓‘成功’来看。

It may not be as obvious or evident as most people would like to think out there, either in terms of people making more money or being more quote successful materially.

但我确信，从存在主义的角度来看，在人们的实际体验中，这是确实成立的。

I think it's certainly true existentially in terms of people people's experience.

换句话说，一天结束时，你感觉有多好？

In other words, how much better do you feel at the end of the day?

我的意思是，你怎么衡量这样一个事实：很多践行GTD方法的人，最终会发现，他们可以安心去看女儿踢足球，而不会沉迷于智能手机。

I mean, how easily do you measure the fact that, you know, a whole lot of people who do this process, the GTD process, wind up going, oh my god, I got to watch my girls play soccer this afternoon without being addicted to my smartphone.

我的意思是，你怎么衡量这一点？

I mean, how do you measure that?

而且，你知道，当你 anecdotal 地说，任何开始实施这种方法的人，都会感到精力大幅释放，有了更多空间去做他们想做的事。比如，对于像埃德蒙·陶布曼费尔德这样的摇滚音乐人来说，他需要的空间用途，和一位53岁的高管完全不同，但他们都需要空间，也都渴望它。

And that, you know, that you So, if you said anecdotally, certain people, anybody who starts to implement this, starts to feel a huge release of their energy, and a lot more room and space to do whatever they're wanting to be doing, you know, for, you know, somebody, a rock musician like Edmund Taubmanfeld to, you know, what he uses space for is quite different than a 53 year old executive, and what they use space for, but they both need space, and they both want it.

而这正是它所提供的。

And this delivers it.

所以这是一种有趣的方法论，无论你身处何地、处于何种境况，应用这些原则都能改善你的状态。

So it's an interesting methodology that no matter where you are and what situation you're in, it improves your condition to apply these principles.

我的意思是，这些做法一点都不会有害。

I mean, none of it hurts.

这可不是拿着剪刀跑步。

It's not like running with scissors.

你只要在床边放个笔记本，就能睡得更好。

You just keep a pad by your bed, you'll sleep better.

你知道，是的。

Know, so yeah.

你知道，人们经常经历的一件事是，一旦他们获得了那种清晰感，体验到了那种空间感，就会开始问：这对我这么有效，那我的老板、同事、妻子或丈夫，我该怎么让他们也这么做呢？

You know, I think something that people very often experience is once they have that clarity, they they taste that space, they start to ask the question, this has worked so well for me, you know, my boss, my coworkers, my wife or husband, how do I get them to do this as well?

因为它让我感到无比自由。

Because it's so freeing for me.

我该怎么让别人也实践这个方法呢？

How do I get somebody else to practice this?

天啊，我不知道。

Boy, I don't know.

这个我也不知道。

I don't know that one either.

正如你所想象的，这是我们商业挑战和模式的一部分，就是要让我们的业务保持可持续性，因为从某种意义上说，这是一个非常简单的理念或概念。

I'd like, you know, as you can imagine, that's part of our business challenge and model to keep our our own business viable, because it in a way is a very simple, you know, IP or concept.

但我们要怎样让人们意识到他们需要这个呢？

But how do we get people to sort of recognize that they need this?

我们解决的是许多人都没有真正意识到自己拥有的问题。

We solve a problem a lot of people don't really recognize they have.

我认为有各种各样的原因。

I think for a lot of reasons.

首先，很少有人有过那种摆脱压力后的体验。

First of all, not many people have ever had the experience of what it's like to get that pressure off their mud.

没错。

That's right.

你知道，鱼最后注意到的才是水。

You know, and the last thing a fish notices is water.

很多人最后注意到的也是他们所处的压力，因为他们每天都24小时身处其中。

And the last thing a lot of people notice is the pressure they're in because they're in it twenty four seven.

哇。

Wow.

等你体验过心中一片空明的感觉就知道了。

Wait till you experience what it's like to have nothing on your mind.

那是一种非常美妙的状态。

It's a wonderful wonderful state to be in.

但要让人们相信，第一，这是可能的；第二，当你这么做时，生活会变得多么美好。

But to convince people a, that it's possible and b, you know, how much cooler life is when you do that.

我认为人们在认知上能理解，但当他们开始说，‘等等，你是说我真的要把所有事情都写下来吗？’

I think people I think people catch it cognitively, but then when they start to say, oh, you mean I actually have to write everything down?

不，你只需要把那些在当下无法立即完成的事情写下来，那些可能是你需要做、处理、思考或做出决定的事情。

Well, no, you've got you just have to write anything down that you can't finish in the moment you think of it, that is potentially something that you need to do or handle or think about or make a decision about.

是的，你确实需要这么做。

Yes, you do need to do that.

你知道，这是一种必需的行为，但我认为很多人只是因为缺乏这种习惯而感到望而却步。

You know, that is a required behavior, but I so, I think it could very well be that a lot of people just feel intimidated by their lack of it.

我还没遇到过多少人会站起来说，‘我对自己的世界完全掌控。’

I haven't met very many people that stand up and say, I am totally in control of my world.

你知道，大多数人对自己落后于人感到尴尬，而每个人都喜欢说，‘哦，我太忙了。’

You know, most everybody feels rather embarrassed about, you know, being behind the eight ball, and everybody loves to say, oh, I'm so busy.

我之前在上一次访谈中问过这个问题，但我绝对喜欢你的回答。你提到过头脑风暴和自然规划法，以及当我们展望未来时，设想辉煌成果的重要性。

You know, I've asked this one before in our last interview, but I I absolutely love the answer, and you know, you mentioned brainstorming the natural planning method and and how important it is that, you know, when we're thinking about the future that we envision, you know, wild success with our outcomes.

就全球采纳GTD而言，你心中宏伟成功的蓝图是什么？

What is your big picture of of wild success when it comes to the world's adoption of GTD?

真正的成功是地球上任何想要使用这种方法的人都能接触到它。

Well, the wild success is that anybody on the planet who could and would want to use this methodology has access to it.

这也是我的希望。

That's my hope as well.

人们之间有什么共同点吗？

Are there any common denominators in people?

我的意思是，现在有如此广泛和多样化的群体在实践这种方法。

I mean, have such a wide range and sampling of people that practice this methodology now.

你是否发现，那些更愿意接受并实践这种思维方式的人之间有什么共同之处？

Do you see anything in common between those that are more willing to accept and practice this way of thinking than others?

你知道吗，安德鲁，我所看到的、吸引人们使用这种方法的唯一普遍标准是：他们相信十八个月后，自己的生活会比现在更好、更充实、更圆满。

You know, Andrew, the only single criterion that I have seen that is pretty universal about people who are attracted to this is people who assume that eighteen months from now, their life is going to be better and more enhanced and fulfilled than it currently is.

这很有趣，因为一位CEO会理解，而他旁边那位背景完全相同的CEO却无法理解。

And it's interesting because one CEO will get it and the person the CEO right next to him with exactly the same profile doesn't get it.

一个12岁的孩子和另一个背景相同的12岁孩子，一个能理解，另一个却不能。

One 12 year old with the same profile as the next 12 year old, one gets it, the other one doesn't.

但我可以保证，这些人的共同点在于，他们某种程度上都是终身学习者，或者有一种感觉：我想获得更多的、更好的、更充实的成果。

But I guarantee the common denominator is there's some version of a sort of lifelong learner or some sense of gee, I I want to get more or better or more enhanced results.

还有更多值得追求的东西，超越我目前所拥有的，这并不是出于负面情绪，而是出于一种憧憬。

There's more to there's more to be had than what I'm currently having, and not necessarily in a negative way, but in an aspirational way.

是的。

Mhmm.

我认为这很有趣，多年来我发现，那些最不需要这种学习方法的人，反而最被它吸引。

And I think that's, you know, it's funny, over the years I've been, you know, interesting to find that the people who essentially need this methodology the least are the most attracted to it.

我曾经苦苦思索了很久，想弄明白这一点。

And you know, I scratched my head for quite a while trying to figure that out.

有一天，我突然恍然大悟，那种‘啊，原来是这样’的顿悟。

One day I had the big blinding flash of the obvious, you know, the big duh.

其实，这种方法真正做的是减轻了系统的阻力。

It's like, oh, well what this what this really does is it relieves drag on the system.

谁最能感受到系统中的阻力呢？

And who's most aware of drag on the system?

那些最强烈地对抗自己系统的人，本质上是最快速的人。

The people who are pulling against their systems most, the fastest people, essentially.

所以，首先是最有生产力的人，他们最能意识到自己被各种事物拖累，因为他们正在奋力对抗这些障碍。

So it's the most productive people, first of all, who are most aware of, you know, of being held back by stuff because they're pulling up against it.

他们也往往是那些最容易让自己失控的人，脱离了他们的抱负、疯狂的想法以及接下来想做的事情。

They're also the people who tend to throw themselves most out of control, Out of their aspirational, you know, their crazy making and their cool ideas and the next thing they want to be doing.

而大多数人，我认为，他们自己的个人系统还没有跟上，无法支持这种状态。

And most people, you know, most of those folks I think have are a little behind the curve in terms of their own personal systems being set up to support that.

所以，随着时间推移，也许这种情况会改变。

So that's maybe over time, you know, maybe that will change.

我们希望，七代人之后，世界会自然而然地以这种方式思考。

We hope, you know, our our hope is seven generations from now, just the world will grow up thinking this way.

是的。

Yes.

因为我们已经发现，孩子们实际上能够这样思考。

Because we've learned that kids can actually think this way.

孩子们不一定非得那么有抱负，我认为他们天生就更有抱负。

Kids don't have to necessarily be that aspirational, I think they're more naturally aspirational to begin with.

如果你只是告诉他们：嘿，你知道吗，这是一个目标篮子，当你五岁或十二岁时，什么是结果导向和下一步行动的思维，现在有些父母正在教孩子这样做，一些学校也在试点尝试解决这个问题。

And if you just tell them, hey, you know, here's an end basket, here's what outcome and next action thinking looks and sounds like when you're five years old or when you're 12 years old, and we've got parents teaching their kids to do that and some pilots work in some schools now, you know, attempting to address this.

但这不会自动发生，所以孩子们并不会自然而然地这样思考，不过他们可以被训练做到这一点，并且很容易被引导走上这条道路。

But this doesn't happen by itself, so this is not an automatic process, you know, to for kids to necessarily think this way, but they can be trained to do it and can be led down that path very easily.

我喜欢这个想法，它有可能成为我们未来的现实。

I love the idea that that is a possibility in our future.

如果你不介意我稍微偏离一下脚本，我想出于我个人的好奇心，向你快速提几个问题。

If if you wouldn't mind me breaking from the script just a little bit, just to for my own selfish curiosity, throw a couple of rapid fire questions your way.

这些问题可能看起来有点奇怪，但是

They might seem distorted, but

尽管说吧。

Go for it.

好的。

Sure.

你有没有特别难忘的记忆，当某个人终于明白了，灵感突然闪现，也许改变了他的生活——这个词可能有点重，但至少他们感受到了某种解脱。

Do you have any favorite memories of when, you know, somebody actually finally, you know, gets it, the light bulb comes on, you know, it, you know, changes their life maybe is a is a strong word, but they they at least experience some level of relief.

有没有哪个具体的例子或时刻，让你印象特别深刻？

Is there any, you know, specific anecdote or specific time that that really just sticks out in your mind from that?

说实话，我没有这样的记忆。

You know, I I have to say not.

这几乎是普遍现象。

It's almost universal.

我的意思是，当我花了数千小时与世界上一些最优秀、最聪明的人面对面交流时，无一例外，每个人都会有类似的经历，这种经历看起来或听起来都像是某种转变。

I mean, when I've I've spent thousands of hours desk side and, you know, with with some of the best and brightest people on the planet, and invariably, everyone has the same kind of experience, which can look or sound somewhat transformational.

我记得有一位高管，我当时是一对一辅导他，第二天我去继续辅导他时，他走进来时有点不高兴、很烦躁，他说：‘大卫，我心想，天啊，出什么事了？'

I mean, I do remember one one executive who, you know, I I was coaching him one on one, and came in the second day to work with him, and he walked in a little bit, you know, miffed and ticked off, and he said, David, I said, Oh God, what happened?

怎么了？

What's up?

他说：‘我昨晚一整晚都没睡。'

He said, I didn't sleep a wink last night.

我惊呼：天哪，发生什么事了？

I went, Oh my God, what happened?

他说：我第一天接受辅导后就兴奋极了。

He said, I was so stoked after just the first day of coaching.

他受到极大启发，脑海中涌现出前所未有的想法，激动得坐立不安，仅仅一天应用这种理念就带来了如此巨大的释放，让他狂热不已。

He was so inspired, he had visions he'd never had before, he was so bouncing off the wall, he was so, you know, crazy enthused with the, you know, with the release that had happened with just one day of applying this methodology.

这可能是其中一个更戏剧性的例子，但几乎每个使用过这种方法的人都会经历类似的情况。

And you know, that was probably one of the more dramatic examples, but that's some version of that is almost universal with people who've done this.

一些公开露面的人，比如美国一些相当知名的艺人，都表示这种方法对他们的创意生活产生了重大改变。

I mean, some people who've gone public, some, you know, fairly well known entertainers in The US anyway, have attributed this to being, you know, contributing to a major change, you know, creatively in their life.

而且我们经常听到这样的反馈。

And you know, we get that regularly, you know.

所以，从某种意义上说，我真不想对此变得麻木，因为这确实很棒，而且具有变革性。

So it's a it's it's in a way, I hate to become blase about it, because it is, it is wonderful, and it is transformational.

我只是不想让自己听起来像个狂热的传道者。

I just like to I don't like to feel like a heavyweight proselytizer about this.

我的意思是，我们希望让人们知道，这是一种简单的方法。

I mean, we like to sort of let people know this is a simple methodology.

你不需要接受任何东西。

You don't have to buy into anything.

它不是一个信仰体系。

It's not a belief system.

你去试试看，去证明它是错的。

You know, test it out, prove it wrong.

你去参与一下，亲自看看结果。

You know, get engaged and see, just see for yourself.

大卫，你在书中提到，我们的大脑中有一部分是聪明的，还有一部分不太聪明，并且你利用一些结构来在你不够聪明的时候保持较高的生产力。

David, in your book, you talk about having a smart part of our brain as well as a not so smart part of our brain, and utilizing structures to kind of keep you at a higher productivity level when you're not feeling so smart.

你能谈谈这个以及你的一些方法吗？

Can you talk about that and some of your structures?

是的，正如我所说，多年来我发现，我的灵感和智慧是随机出现的。

Yeah, well as I say, you know, I discovered over the years that that I'm only randomly inspired inspired and intelligent, you know.

所以，如果你只是偶尔灵光一现、聪明一下，但又像我一样懒惰，同时多少有点儿机智——当你灵光一现、聪明的时候，就要把那些成果记录下来，然后妥善存放在合适的地方，这样当你脑子迟钝、笨拙的时候，也能做出聪明的事。

And so, but if you're, you know, if you're only randomly inspired and intelligent but you're lazy like I am, and and hopefully have a little bit of cleverness to you, you know, when you're inspired and intelligent, you need to capture the results of that and then, you know, park those in appropriate places so that when you are kind of thick and dumb, you know, you do smart things.

所以，当你处于灵感迸发的时刻，比如突然想到：‘哦，我得去浏览这个网站’，或者‘我真想给侄女买这份礼物’，又或者‘这个点子真棒，可以加进我即将做的讲座或演讲里’。

So, know, if you are in an inspired moment, say, wow, you know, here is a website I need to surf, or here is a present I would love to get for my niece, or wow, here's a cool idea I might want to build into a seminar or a speech that I'm giving.

对吧？

Right?

要在有想法的那一刻立刻把它记下来，存放在某个地方，别让这个想法溜走了。

To to be able to capture that when you have that idea, park that some place so that idea is not lost.

很快，你就会重新翻出这个想法，心想：‘好吧，这个该放哪儿呢？’

And, you know, before long, you know, you're gonna pick that idea up and say, okay, where does that go?

我该把它妥善存在哪里？

Where do I park that appropriately?

于是你感到头脑迟钝、昏昏沉沉，早上挣扎着起床，还得准备一场演讲。

So then you're feeling kind of thick and stupid and trying to wake up in the morning and need to work on a speech.

你翻看笔记，突然说：‘哦，对了，这个主意不错。’

You look at your notes, you go, oh, hey, that's a good idea.

是的

Yeah.

我三天前就有过这种经历。

I had that, you know, three days ago.

现在，它就在我需要的地方等着我。

And now here it's now here it's available to me in the right place.

这是一个有点傻但很简单的例子，但非常普遍。

So that's a that's a kind of a silly simple example, but that's pretty universal.

我觉得反而是那些不太聪明的人，他们一直都很聪明。

I think it's the not so smart people that they're smart all the time.

说得很好，非常好。

Well said, very well said.

对。

Yeah.

我们以前曾以不同的方式问过这个问题，你可能已经提到过了，但为了从另一个角度探讨一下，我知道你提到过，我们对压力的个人依赖是我们学习这种思维方式的最大障碍之一。

I've we've asked this question kind of in a different way, and and so you may have already addressed this, but just to attack it from a different angle, you know, I've heard you mention that our own personal addiction to stress is one of the biggest obstacles for us to learning to think this way.

你认为为什么会这样呢？

Have any reasons as to why you might think that is?

嗯，你知道，说成上瘾听起来有点严重，但事实上，它指的是你愿意忍受不去做这件事的状态。

Well, you know, the way I addiction sounds a little tough, but it actually, in a sense, it is, it's your willingness to tolerate not doing this.

以及愿意承受生活中这种程度的压力。

And the willingness to put up with that amount of stress in your life.

我的意思是，每个人在某个时候都会这样，你知道，那是1967年，我21岁的时候，曾经搭便车穿越中东，坐在卡车后厢，住在土耳其、伊朗、阿富汗和巴基斯坦的卡车休息站。

I mean everybody at some point, you know, look, when I was what, this is 1967, so when I was when I was 21 years old, I hitchhiked across The Middle East, you know, in the back of trucks and truck stops in Turkey and Iran and Afghanistan and Pakistan.

我现在还会这么做吗？

Would I do that now?

我想我不会了。

I don't think so.

也许如果非做不可，我知道自己能行，但至少，你会想要一家四星级酒店吧？

Maybe if I had to, I knew I could, I probably could do it, but you know, how about you know, a four star hotel at least?

你知道，标准是会改变的。

You know, so standards can change.

所以有些事情我现在已经无法忍受了，而以前我是可以忍受的。

So there are certain things I'm not willing to tolerate, you know, that I used to be able to tolerate.

我们从实际层面来看，大多数人通常会容忍收件箱里有一定数量的未处理邮件。

And that, you know, let's take it down to the practical level, like most people will tend to tolerate a certain number of unprocessed emails in their in their email application, in their in basket.

你之所以能容忍这些，是因为如果有个好心的仙女出现，把所有人的邮件都清空了，让收件箱归零，那么大约两三周后，他们又会回到和现在差不多的数量。

And the the reason you tolerate that, and you know, if the good fairy showed up and disappeared everybody's emails, so there was no backlog and it was at zero, in about two or three weeks they'd probably have pretty much the same number they currently have.

因为问题不在于他们收到的信息量有多大，而在于他们愿意容忍多少未处理的信息。

Because it's not about the volume of that input they get, it's about their tolerance for how much of that input on process they're willing to tolerate.

我的标准是零。

Mine is zero.

我的收件箱从来不会真正为零，因为总会有新邮件进来。

I mean it's never zero because there's always stuff coming in.

我不会一天24小时都洗澡，但至少每天一次，对吧？

And I don't take a shower twenty four hours a day, but at least once a day, right?

我清空收件箱、每周做一次全面回顾、跟进所有事项，和我刷牙、洗澡是同一个道理。

If I and sometimes I'll go too, but you know, that starts to feel a little grody, but the same reason I empty my in basket, the same reason I do a weekly review of all of my stuff and catch up on everything is for the same reason I brush my teeth and take showers.

你知道，如果我不这么做，脏乱感就会变得太严重。

Know, if I don't, the scuzz factor gets too high.

这只不过是心理上的脏乱，但本质上还是一回事。

It's just psychic scuzz, but it's still the same thing.

所以，你愿意容忍多少心理上的脏乱，才是人们实施这一方法的最大障碍。

So your willingness to tolerate how much psychic scuzz is really the biggest barrier to people implementing this.

这本书和这个方法都叫《搞定》，我们非常兴奋能在第一期节目中与你，大卫，交谈。

Well, the book and the movement are named the same, Getting Things Done, and we are so excited to have talked with you, David, for our first episode.

谢谢你推广这些东西，并将其作为你一生的事业。

So thank you for spreading this stuff and making this your life's work.

这真的很重要。

It does matter.

谢谢你，安德鲁。

Thanks, Andrew.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

很有趣。

It was fun.

嘿。

Hey.

感谢各位收听本期《搞定》。

And thank all of you for listening to this episode of Getting Things Done.

我们非常期待下周的节目，因为我们的特邀对话嘉宾是《销售就是人》这本纽约时报畅销书的作者丹尼尔·平克，我们将讨论信息过载的问题。

We are so excited about next week's episode because our feature conversation is with Daniel Pink, the New York Times bestselling author of To Sell Is Human, and we're gonna be talking about information overload.

这确实是一个巨大的主题，也是当今世界非常相关的问题。

It's definitely a huge subject and something that is really pertinent to our world today.

接下来，我们将分享这段对话的二十分钟片段，但实际的对话内容比我们能在播客中容纳的要更长、更深入。

Now, we'll be sharing a twenty minute portion of that conversation, but it is a much larger and more in-depth conversation than we could just fit in that podcast.

如果您想了解GTD Connect，请访问gettingthingsdone.com/podcast。

And if you're interested in checking out GTD Connect, head on over to gettingthingsdone.com/podcast.

为了享受大幅折扣，请在结账时使用代码podcast。

And in order to receive a significant discount, use the code podcast at checkout.

我们也在收集问题，以便在未来的节目中解答。

We're also collecting questions to be answered on a future episode.

所以，如果你对大卫·艾伦本人、我或者大卫·艾伦公司任何成员有任何问题，请发送邮件至 podcast@davidco.com。

So if you have any questions for David Allen himself or for myself or anybody on the David Allen company, send an email to podcast@davidco.com.

在那之前，我是安德鲁·杰伊·梅森，想问问你们：听完这期播客后，你的下一步行动是什么？

Until then, I'm Andrew Jay Mason asking you, now that you've listened to this podcast, what's your next action?