Ep: 17 - Ten Common Questions About GTD

您正在收听《搞定》播客，这是大卫·艾伦公司官方播客，本期特别对话嘉宾为里克·坎托、大卫·艾伦和玛丽安·贝特曼，主题为《关于GTD的十个问题》。

You're listening to Getting Things Done, the official podcast of the David Allen company with our feature conversation between Rick Kantor, David Allen, and Marian Bateman entitled 10 questions about GTD.

欢迎收听《搞定》的又一期节目，简称GTD。

Welcome to another episode of Getting Things Done, GTD for shorthand.

我是安德鲁·杰伊·梅森，这个播客致力于帮助您在学习无压力高效能艺术的旅程中前行。

My name's Andrew Jay Mason, and this podcast is all about helping you on your journey learning the art of stress free productivity.

最近，我们为本播客新增了一个名为《与大卫的一问》的环节，我们觉得不妨用一整期节目来集中回答一系列GTD问答。

Recently, we've introduced a new segment of this podcast entitled One Question with David and we thought it would be fun to take an entire episode loaded with GTD Q and A.

今天，我们将与里克·坎托进行一场特别对话，他向大卫·艾伦和玛丽安·贝特曼提出了十个关于GTD的问题，包括如何设定优先级？

So today, have a very special conversation with Rick Kantor asking David Allen and Marian Bateman 10 questions regarding GTD, including how do you set priorities?

当您不断被打断时，您会怎么做？

What do you do when you're interrupted constantly?

或者，如果您错过了每周回顾，有什么建议能帮助您重新上轨道？

Or do you have any tips for staying on track after falling off the weekly review wagon?

如果您刚刚加入本播客，我们建议您回听几期过往节目，嘉宾包括查尔斯·杜希格、丹尼尔·平克，以及《辛普森一家》的编剧团队。

Now if you're just joining us on this podcast, we encourage you to go back and check out a few of the previous episodes with guests like Charles Duhigg, Daniel Pink, and The Simpsons writers.

如果我不告诉你们，GTD Connect 上还有数百场其他访谈可供收听，那就太疏忽了。

Now I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that there's literally hundreds of other interviews available as part of GTD Connect.

所以，请前往 gettingthingsdone.com/podcast，点击 GTD Connect，今天就开始聆听并从社区中学习吧。

So head on over to gettingthingsdone.com/podcast and click on GTD Connect to start listening and learning from the community today.

别走开，等到本集播客结束时，你会获得一个加入时的大幅折扣码。

And hang out until the end of this podcast for a significant discount code when you decide to join.

闲话少说，接下来是 Rick Kantor、David Allen 和 Marian Bateman，他们将围绕 GTD 回答十个问题。

Without further ado, here's Rick Kantor, David Allen, and Marian Bateman for 10 questions about GTD.

你好。

Hi.

我是 Rick Kantor，今天我们来与《高效能人士的七个习惯》的作者 David Allen 以及 Marian Bateman 对话。

I'm Rick Kantor, and we're here today to talk with David Allen, the author of the best selling book, Getting Things Done, The Art of Stress Free Productivity, and Marian Bateman.

欢迎你们两位，Marian。

Welcome to both of you, Marian.

谢谢。

Thank you.

很高兴能在这里。

Delighted to be here.

我也是。

Me too.

今天，我们将探讨一些关于生产力和实现工作生活平衡的最常见问题。

Today, we're gonna go through some of the most often asked questions about productivity and achieving work life balance.

这些问题是由使用‘要事第一’系统的人们，以及那些只是寻求方法来缓解生活中压力和过载感的人们提出的。

These questions have been compiled from people, both those working with the Getting Things Done system and people out there who are just looking for ways to control some of the overwhelm and overload sense they have of their lives.

我们最常听到的一个问题是这样的。

One of the questions we hear most often is something that goes like this.

我的工作和生活发生了变化，我感到不知所措。

Things have changed in my work and life, and I feel overwhelmed.

还有希望吗？

Is there hope?

你会怎么回答这个问题？

How would you answer that?

嗯，既然我从事这个行业，当然有希望。

Well, since I'm in the business, of course, there's hope.

我的意思是，我必须让别人知道这一点。

I mean, I have to, you know, I have to let people know that.

事实上，真的有希望。

And, really, there really is hope.

好消息是，确实存在一些明确的行为和可操作、可实施的技术，这些并不难做到，能让我们感受到对局面的掌控，而不是被它压垮。

I think the good news is is that there actually are definable behaviors and definable and doable and implementable techniques that are not hard to do, that actually give us a sense of sort of getting in control of this instead of feeling buried by it.

这些方法都是可以做到的。

And, those can be done.

我们并不是天生就会这些事情。

We're not born doing those things.

它们需要被学习和练习，但实施起来很简单。

They do need to be learned and need to be practiced, but they're easy to implement.

从我的角度来看，压力感源于你没有明确界定自己与自己的约定。

Overwhelm, from my point of view, comes from not having your agreements defined with yourself.

所以会发生的情况是，你会感到信息量过大。

So what happens is you have a sense of being flooded with information.

你不太清楚什么该先做，什么该第二，什么该第三。

You're not really sure what's first, what's second, what's third.

各种事情从各个方向涌向你，你却不知道该从哪里开始。

You've got stuff coming at you from every corner, and you have no way of knowing where to begin.

GTD或学习《搞定》的妙处在于，它为你提供了一个结构。

The beauty about get GTD or Learning Getting Things Done is it provides a structure for you.

哇，真的如此。

It's like, wow.

我可以从感到不知所措，转变为对自己的工作和生活充满掌控感。

I can turn from feeling overwhelmed into feeling in charge about my work and my life.

这是一个巨大的突破。

This is a big win.

所以你说，即使事情多到做不完，任务多到堆成山，也未必会感到压力山大？

So you say you can actually have too much to do, too much on your plate, but still not feel overwhelmed?

我觉得总感觉要做的事情永远多过我们能做完的。

I think that there's a sense of of always more to do than we can do.

如果你仔细想想，这要么是无限的机会，要么是无限的压力。

If you think about it, it's like, well, that's either infinite opportunity or infinite stress.

这就像杯子是半空还是半满一样。

It's kind of half empty, half full as the glass.

因为无论如何，你一次其实只能做一件事。

Like, you can only really do one of those things at a time anyway.

所以，你有多少未完成的事情其实并不是关键，只要像玛丽安说的那样，你正在做那些在所有选项和可能性下你本该做的事情。

So how many undone things you have is really not the issue as long as you're, as Marian said, on doing sort of what you know you should be doing, given all those options and all the possibilities.

我认为大多数人最大的问题在于，无法识别压力的来源。

I think the biggest problem that most people have is identifying where the stress is coming from.

正如我们所发现的，有必要去揭示、发现、澄清并明确——换句话说，我的承诺是什么，以便我能迅速看到它们。

And as we've uncovered, the necessity to uncover and discover and clarify and codify, if you will, what are my agreements so I can see them very quickly.

然后我才能开始识别压力的来源。

Then I can start to identify where the pressure is coming from.

正如你所知，摆脱这种困境的终极方法是能够重新与自己协商协议，审视一切并说：现在不做那600件、200件或800件事也没关系，但你必须清楚那些事情具体是什么。

And as you know, the ultimate way out of this is to be able to renegotiate your agreements with yourself, look at it all and say, that's okay that I'm not doing those 600 or 200 or 800 things right now, but you better know what those what those are.

你知道，任何一位优秀的治疗师都会遇到来访者泛泛而谈，比如‘一切都糟透了’。

You know, any good therapist will people show up and generalize, I'm you know, things are awful.

那么，到底什么是糟透的呢？

Well, what exactly is awful?

那么，你该如何识别出具体是哪些事呢？

So how do you identify what that is?

但如果你没有一套良好的系统来管理你的承诺并保持这份清单，要做到这一点会非常困难。

But that's very difficult to do if you haven't got a good system in place to manage your commitments and keep that inventory.

将你的思维外化这一方法仍然很新颖，但确实有效——能够将你所有的成功成果清晰地呈现在眼前，会带来极大的自由。

It's still brand new that it really works to have your thinking externalized, that there is great freedom in being able to see all of your successful outcomes in front of you.

然后我就能随时转身，重新协商我的协议，回归中心，重新开始。

And then I can turn on a dime and renegotiate my agreements, come back to center, start again.

根据你生活中意外事件的多少，你可能需要一遍又一遍地启动这个过程。

And you may begin that process over and over depending on how much what the surprise factor is in your life.

但拥有一个能让你快速有效应对的系统，确实能带来这种自由感。

But having a system that enables you to respond quickly and effectively sure creates that sense of freedom.

别误会我们的意思。

And don't get us wrong.

你并不能通过实施一个好系统就消除生活中的挑战和问题。

You don't get rid of challenges and problems in your life by implementing, you know, a good system.

它的作用是明确这些问题所在，让你能够恰当地与它们协商、绕过它们。

What it does is it clarifies what they are so that you can negotiate with them through and around them appropriately.

所以，你并不想摆脱挑战。

So you wouldn't wanna get rid of challenge.

本质上，人们会说：‘大卫，无压力的高效能？’

Essentially, people say, gee, David, stress free productivity.

你真的能做到无压力的高效能吗？

Can you really have stress free productivity?

答案是：嗯，是也不是。

And the answer is, well, yes and no.

不，你不可能在那种意义上实现无压力的高效，因为每当你想做一件以前从未做过的事时，你都会在生活里制造出一种不协调、压力或张力。

No, you can't have stress free productivity in the in the sense that anytime you wanna do something that hasn't been done yet, you've created a dissonance or a kind of a stress or a tension, if you will, in your life.

我想离开这个房间。

I wanna be out of the room.

但我还没离开这个房间。

I'm not out of the room.

这就会产生张力。

That's gonna create tension.

或者我想拥有十亿美元，但我现在一无所有，还欠着债。

Or I wanna have a gazillion dollars, and I've owned and I'm in debt.

这也会制造张力。

That creates tension.

这种张力是正面还是负面，取决于你是否正以适当的方式朝着你承诺要完成的目标前进，是否让你感觉自己正朝着既定方向前进。

Whether that's a negative tension depends on whether you're sort of moving appropriately toward what it is that you're committed to finish or complete in a in some way that you feel like I'm on in terms of where I'm going.

因此，你生活中的这种张力实际上会带来拓展、表达和成长。

And so that that kind of tension in your life actually creates expansion and expression and growth.

所以你并不想消除这种压力。

So you wouldn't wanna get rid of that.

但问题在于，人们常常无法清晰、有效地朝着这个方向协商，反而觉得自己被太多事情压垮了，因为他们根本没有掌控住自己真正该做的事。

But the the problem, though, is that people oftentimes can't negotiate toward that cleanly and clearly and feel sort of victims of too much because they didn't just haven't gotten control of what it is.

所以，即使列出了长长的清单并理解了自己所有的承诺，生活也不会因此变得轻松。

So having a big list and understanding what all you're committed to doesn't suddenly make life seem easy.

但你也不希望生活是那种样子。

But you wouldn't want it that way.

但它确实让事情变得可以协商了，我认为这才是关键。

But what it does is it makes it negotiable, and I think that's a big key.

这引出了第二个问题，人们经常问：当我把所有事情都列出来、写在清单上时，你说你会发现自己大约有70到100个项目和120个下一步行动。

Well, that brings us to the second question, which people often ask, which is when I get everything out and on my lists, and I think you say that you'll find that you have something like 70 to a 100 projects and a 120 next actions.

当他们把所有这些都摆出来时，却不知道该如何优先处理。

When they get all that out there, they don't know how to prioritize.

我知道，‘要事第一’系统明确不使用A、B、C优先级编码。

And I know that Getting Things Done System specifically does not use an a b c priority code, for instance.

所以人们常问的问题是，我该如何为手头上的事情排定优先级？

So the question that comes to people is, how do I prioritize what's on my plate?

这确实是个大问题。

Well, that's a big question.

事实上，我最近刚开发了一个完整的研讨会，专门探讨如何管理多重优先级，内容丰富到足以撑满一整天，涵盖我们需要审视的所有不同方面。

As a matter of fact, I've just been working on a a whole seminar just simply about managing multiple priorities, and it's a whole day's worth of information to look at all the different things that we need to look at.

这没有简单的答案。

It's not a simple answer.

我们不使用A、B、C分类的原因是，这种做法过于简化了评估优先级的背景情境。

The reason we don't use a, b, and c is that's to oversimplify the context for how to evaluate your priorities.

你知道，当你去睡觉的时候，你就已经做出了一个决定——比起和配偶聊天或制定战略计划，照顾好自己的身体更重要。

You know, as soon as you go to sleep, you just said taking care of the health of your body is more important than anything else in your life because you decided to go to sleep instead of have a conversation with your spouse or work on your strategic plan.

所以，每次你选择做不同的事情时，你其实都在做出优先级的判断。

So every time you do something different, you're making a priority decision.

关键在于，你要对自己所做的选择感到安心，确信那是恰当的决定。

The trick is is to feel comfortable that what you decided to do was the appropriate thing.

因此，要理解你是如何设定优先级的，首先必须具备战略性的眼光，明确我们的方向是什么、我们在做什么，以及在个人和职业多个时间维度上，什么对我们最重要。

So understanding how you set priorities, you have to, first of all, have the appropriately strategic perspective, where are we going, what are we doing, what's important to us at multiple horizons of that, both personally and professionally.

但这也要求你具备我所说的战术智慧。

But it also requires you to be, what I call, tactically intelligent.

你需要说：好吧，我正在为朋友的婚礼做组织工作。

You need to say, well, look, I'm organizing my friend's wedding.

我是否掌控住了？

Do I have it under control?

我是否以某种有条理的方式规划了这个项目，从而清楚自己该怎么做？

Have I organized this project, essentially something that has my attention in some coherent way, so I know what to do about that?

你不仅需要战略性的眼光，判断这个项目有多重要，还需要战术上的智慧，即是否已充分思考过这个项目；但除此之外，你还必须在日常生活中建立一套工作流程，以便在一天中保持清晰的专注力，并能无缝执行。

And then not only do you have strategic perspective, call how important is that project, and tactical intelligence called have I thought through that project appropriately, But then you need to have the workflow process set up in your life so that you can maintain a clear focus as you're going through your day, and you can also execute seamlessly.

我需要知道所有这些项目接下来该做什么，并能全面看到这些信息。

I need to know what's next on all of these projects, be able to see all of that.

所以，哇。

So I wow.

我没电了。

I'm out of phone.

我还有五分钟。

I have five minutes.

我现在能做什么？

What could I do right now?

如果你有一份清单，列出了所有你能用手机完成的、只需五分钟的事项，而这些事项都源于你之前的思考，那么你大概会很信任自己的安排。

If you have a list of every single thing you needed to do that you could do at a phone that would only take five minutes that have come out of all of that thinking, you probably pretty much trust what you do.

但如果你没有这样的清单，如果其中有任何遗漏，你就很难相信自己的判断确实是你真正该做的事。

But if you haven't, if any of that's missing, pretty hard to trust that your your judgment call is what you really need to be doing.

所有这些都说明，决定我当前优先事项的标准涉及大量变量和复杂性。

All of that's to say there's a lot of variables and complexity that go into, you know, the the the criterion that we would use to decide, you know, my priorities right now.

但事情并没有那么简单，不像一个良好的简单结构可能让你以为的那样。

But it's it's just not that simple, like a good simple structure might lead you to believe.

所以这要复杂得多。

So it's much more complex.

所以并不是我们不指导或教授优先级。

So it's not that we don't coach or teach priorities.

我们所做的只是确保你不会以错误的方式过度结构化你真正的优先级，以及在任何时刻做出判断时涉及的各种变量。

What we do is just make sure that you don't try to overstructure in a false way what your priorities really are and all the different variables that come into play when you have to make a judgment call at any moment about what to do.

话虽如此，如果我是个新手，听了这个解释，我可能会想，天啊，我不确定自己是否能理解这个，或者它听起来太庞大、太复杂了。

That said, if I was brand new and I was listening to that explanation, I might think, wow, I don't know that I could ever, you know, understand this, or it sounds too big or too complex.

大卫所描述的实际上是我们所有人时刻都在进行的自然过程。

What David is describing is actually a natural process that we all do all the time.

不过，我们通过GTD方法所能做的，是创建一个非常具体的结构，让你能够以非常循序渐进的方式完成他刚才所描述的这个过程。

What we've been able to do, though, in the GTD methodology is really create a very specific structure that allows you to go through that process that he was just describing in a very step by step way.

这样，当你学会这种思维方式时，就会自然而然地做到这一点。

So that when you learn this thinking, you automatically do that.

这只不过让过程变得有意识了。

It just makes it conscious.

因此，你从无意识、无觉察的状态，转变为有意识、有觉察地对待你原本自然的行为。

So you're moving from unconscious and unaware to conscious and aware about what you do naturally.

这并不是简单的ABC，因为我们本身并不简单。

It's just not as simple as ABC because we're not that simple.

我认为，我们在指导人们时强调的一个关键点，是让优先事项变得更容易确定，那就是把所有事情都从脑子里拿出来，摆在眼前。

I think a big thing that we coach people on that's a bit that takes a big step in making it a lot easier to set priorities is just getting everything out of your head and getting them in front of your face.

我的意思是，人们并不笨。

I mean, people aren't stupid.

我的意思是，如果每个人都真正列出自己一生中所有需要打的电话，那么几乎每个人都不需要超过十秒，就能判断出哪个电话打出去能带来最高的个人回报，而不是列表上的其他电话。

I mean, if you if you if everybody truly looked at a list of every single phone call they needed to make in their life about anything, it probably wouldn't take anybody longer than ten seconds to decide which of those calls would give them the highest personal payoff if they made that call versus some other call on that list.

所以，我认为我们并不缺乏做出优先级判断的智慧。

So I don't think that we lack the intelligence to be able to make priority decisions.

但一开始，如果你没有把所有选项都摆在面前，就很难真正信任自己的选择。

But right to begin with, if you don't have all the options out in front of you, it makes it a lot tougher to really trust your choices.

因此，我们对新人的初期培训，主要是确保所有这些事情都从你脑子里拿出来，变成某种客观的形式。

So a lot of our initial training of people is just to make sure that all this stuff gets out of your head and in some objective format.

这样就能让你大大向前迈进。

So that's going to move you way forward.

这并不是说我们不需要更多的细致思考，去深入思考我们的战略是什么、我们想去哪里、生活中什么是核心价值观。

Now that's not to say that there's not a lot more sophistication that we all could use to think at all what are we what's our strategy, where are we going, what is core values in our life.

而这些价值观是变化的，因为随着我们所有人逐渐成熟，我们的价值观，或者对它们的觉察，也会随之成长和变化。

And those are changing because as we all mature our values, I think, or our awareness of them changes and matures.

因此，要不断改进，更好地判断哪些电话是最重要该打的，这就像一场不断变化的游戏。

So there's gone it's a constantly shifting game out there to get better and better about deciding which of those phone calls is the most important call to make.

所以，仅仅把事情列出来并不能简单地解决所有问题，但它确实是奠定重要基础的关键一步。

So it's not that you just solve all the problems simply by getting them out, but it's an important laying of the groundwork.

而这本身就能带来巨大的改变。

And that that just makes a huge difference just right there.

那么，第三个问题实际上与外部化过程相悖，你说的是把事情从脑子里拿出来，以便能看清它们。

Well, the third question we have kind of goes in the face of the externalizing process, what you say is getting it out of your head so that you can look at things.

这个问题是：我总觉得我已经把一切都规划好了、井然有序，可一进办公室，就完全无法接触到我的清单、待办事项和项目，因为不断有人打断我。

And that question is, I feel like the fire hose of reality that I have everything all planned out and in order, and then I go into my office and suddenly I can't get to my lists, I can't get to my to dos and my projects because I'm interrupted constantly.

那你怎么

What do

你该怎么处理这种情况？

you do about that?

实际上，你并不想消除干扰，因为干扰往往是创造性、自发性、新且真正重要优先事项的来源或种子，通常以意想不到的形式出现。

Actually, you wouldn't wanna get rid of interruptions because, interruptions are oftentimes where the the great source or seed of creative, spontaneous, new, and really real priorities oftentimes come in the unexpected, forms like that.

非常成功的高级管理人员几乎不会谈论自己被干扰。

Very successful senior executives off will hardly talk about being interrupted.

他们实际上正是通过这种方式来操控和管理自己的世界：下一件意想不到的事情，无论是电话里打来的，还是有人走进门，都是一个绝佳的机会。

That's actually how they manipulate and manage their world is the next thing they don't expect coming out of on the phone or walking in their door, and it's a great opportunity.

因此，正是出于这个原因，这些高级管理人员会非常注重保持干净整洁，确保工作台清晰，确保没有太多事情牵扯他们的精神，以便他们能自由地给予这些干扰应得的关注。

That's why, though, those kinds of senior executives will get very, pristine about making sure there's no residue, making sure the deck is clear, and making sure they don't have a lot of things pulling on their psyche so they are free to give that interruption the attention it deserves.

所以，我想这就是为什么实施一个良好的收集、处理和组织系统的原因之一——它能让你在面对突然出现的事物时，拥有更多的自由去自发应对。

So I guess that's one way of saying one of the reasons to implement a good, you know, collection processing and organizing system is so that you it allows you a lot more freedom to then engage spontaneously with things coming towards you.

换句话说，如果你的工作台清晰，处理干扰就会容易得多；反之，如果你有一大堆积压的事情牵扯你的精力，那就很难应对了。

In other words, it's a lot easier to deal with an interruption if you got a clear deck than if you got a bunch of backlog that's pulling on your psyche.

我认为，如果你没有类似GTD这样的系统，每次被打断时，你都在重新发明轮子。

One of the problems, I think, with if you don't have a system like GTD is every time you're interrupted, you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

所以你又回来了。

So you're coming back.

你又开始把所有事情都记下来了。

You're writing everything down again.

你正在一遍又一遍地重新塑造你的生活和工作。

You're you're literally reinventing your life and your work over and over again.

拥有一个有结构的系统的好处在于，你可以真正地创建一个占位符，然后转向当下最重要的事情。

So the beauty about having a system where there is a structure is that you can literally create a placeholder and move to what is important in the moment.

无论你的工作是在家还是在职场，意外总是层出不穷，它们是生活的一部分。

And whether your work is in whether your work is at home or whether it's in the workplace, surprises happen all the time, and they're a part of life.

因此，它让你能够即时决定什么是最能有效利用你时间和精力的事情。

So it gives you the ability to decide in the moment what's the best use of your time and energy.

里克，关于打断的这个问题其实很有趣，因为它凸显了我们所教授的最平凡却最关键的技巧。

And, Rick, that question of interruptions is really it's interesting is that it brings to the fore one of the most mundane techniques that we teach is the most critical for that.

玛丽安刚刚提到了，那就是管理占位符的能力。

Marian just mentioned it, and that's being able to manage placeholders.

在低科技层面，很简单的方法就是在桌上放一个实体的收件篮，旁边放上便签纸。

The very simple thing at the low tech level of having a physical endbasket on your desk and having pads of paper right there.

所以当你正在做事时，如果电话响了，你决定接电话而不是继续手头的工作，就把你正在做的事放回收件篮，接起电话，并确保记下通话内容。

So when you're working on something, if the phone rings and interrupts you and you decide to pick up that phone instead of whatever you were doing, you just throw what you were doing back into your end basket, pick up the phone, make sure you're taking notes on the phone call.

挂断电话后，有人推门进来打断你，就把电话记录拿起来，放进收件篮。

When you hang up the phone, somebody walks in your door, interrupts you, take the notes from the phone call, throw them in your end basket.

人进来了，假设你知道如何处理收件篮——这是另一个话题，而且假设你确实会处理收件篮，让它每24到48小时清空一次——这也是另一个话题。

The person walks in, and assuming that you know how to process your end basket, which is another story, and assuming that you actually do process your end basket, so it gets to zero every twenty four to forty eight hours, which is another story.

但如果这些行为已经养成，那么你内心的一部分就会觉得：‘这种干扰，我能应对。’

But if those if those behaviors are in place, then some part of you, interruptions is like, I can handle that.

我能应对。

I can handle that.

我能应对，因为我为这些干扰设置了暂存点，我可以轻松放手，心理不会被干扰打乱，因为我知道我随时可以回来，从我离开的地方继续处理它们，按自己的节奏解决。

I can handle that because I've got placeholders for them, and I can turn and walk free and clear with my psyche not being disturbed by that because I know I can pick where I'll pick those things up where I left off and then deal with them in my own timing.

如果你没有一个值得信赖的系统，每一个你明知还需要处理的干扰，都必须在它发生时立即处理，因为你不相信系统能帮你保存下来。

If you don't have a system you trust, every interruption that you know you still need to do something about tends to have to be handled in the moment it came to you because you don't trust your system will hold it for you.

所以你知道你必须处理它，但你知道你本该做别的事。

So you know you have to deal with it, but you know you should be doing something else.

于是你去处理这个干扰，然后感到沮丧，因为你明明知道本该做别的事。

So then you go deal with the interruption, and then you feel frustrated because you know you should be doing something else.

而掌握如何为事情设置临时存放点的简单方法，我是认真的——只需几张纸、一支笔和你的收件篮，这就是你的救赎。

And the simple technique to know how to grab placeholders for things truly, and I'm quite serious, just with pieces of paper and a pen and your end basket is your salvation.

那么，一个相关的问题，也许你已经回答过了，但我还是问一下，因为这里提到了：我知道你曾指导过一些国内和全球顶尖的首席执行官以及高级管理人员。

Well, a corollary question, and maybe you've answered it, but I'll I'll ask it because it's here is, I know you coach some of the top CEOs in the country and the world and some very senior executives.

他们有哪些行为表现？

What behaviors do they perform?

他们做的是哪些我做不到的事？

What do they do that I don't do?

他们是如何管理多家公司以及如此多的优先事项和项目，而我却做不到？

How are they able to manage multiple companies and the number of priorities and projects they do that I can't do?

你能告诉我，那些具体的行为或态度是什么吗？这就是我的问题。

Can you tell me what those specific kinds of behaviors or attitudes are was the question.

我知道，可能有人对这些行为的研究比我还深入、更系统。

I know people have probably done more studying rigorously in terms of some of those behaviors that I have than than I have.

我的经验是基于轶事的，但我确实阅读过相关资料，并且通过我与这些高层人士合作的亲身经历，验证了这一点：这些人倾向于在前期就对事情做出决策，然后把决策的结果交托给值得信赖的人或系统。

I can mine is anecdotal, and I certainly read about it and seemed validated from from my own experience in working with the senior people that I work with, is that those people have a tendency to make decisions about things on the front end and then park or place the results of that decision making into trusted people and systems.

他们常常有专门的工作人员，可以做出决策后直接交办下去，他们信任自己的团队，也信任整个系统。

Oftentimes, they'll just have staff where they can make a decision handed off to staff, and they've got people that they trust and, you know, a system that they trust.

但我觉得一个共同点是，他们不会让大量非决策性事务堆积在脑子里，造成困扰。

But they but I think a common denominator is that they don't allow a lot of non decision stuff to lie, clog up their psyche.

他们几乎毫不留情地把事情从脑子里清空，通过快速做出决策，明确它们该去往何处，然后放进系统里。

That they're they're there's a they're almost ruthless with how they get stuff off their mind and into the system by making decisions about it and what it where it needs to go.

我的意思是，这往往是一种倾向。

I mean, that tends to be a tendency.

这种自我管理的高管风格是：一旦有事情进来，我就尽快做出决定，然后把结果放到一个可靠的地方，这样我就不用一直纠结，而别人却在试图吸引我的注意。

That that sort of self management executive style where I something comes in, I make a decision about it sooner than later, and then I park that result into some good trusted place so I don't have to sit there and be chewing about it while somebody else is trying to get my attention.

这种保持思维自由、无残留、在前端快速决策的能力，我认为是其中真正关键的一环。

And that ability to stay free, no residue, front end decision making, I'd say, is probably a real a real critical piece of that.

话虽如此，我知道我们曾与许多非常成功的首席执行官和高管合作，他们并不一定认为自己在工作中表现得特别出色，但却承受着巨大的压力。

That said, I know that we've worked with a lot of very, very successful CEOs and, you know, c level people that do not necessarily think they're terrific at what they do, but they have a lot of stress doing it.

即使你已经达到了那个层级，也不意味着你不需要学习和提升工作中的技巧。

Even though you've arrived at that level doesn't necessarily mean that there's not an art of work that you could benefit from learning.

我经常说，成功的高管是那些解决的问题比他们制造的问题更大的人。

I often say the definition of a successful executive are those who solve bigger problems than they create.

但有时候，这个等式可能会受到质疑。

But sometimes that equation can be can be in question.

但你知道吗？

But you know?

因此，他们中的许多人在这方面仍有很大的提升空间。

So there's many of them still have a big improvement opportunity in terms of how well they do that.

有条理并不是成功的本质。

And being organized is not the essence to success.

我认为，追随内心、直觉，做出出色的判断，在正确的时间和地点出现，我不知道，也许是好运，不管是什么原因。

I think following your heart, your intuition, making great judgment calls, being at the right time and place, I don't know, good karma, whatever it is.

还有很多其他因素可以被称为成功。

There are a lot of other factors that could be what one would call success.

如果你说的是保持一种可持续、轻松且高效的生活与工作方式，我会说，这在我眼中正是成功的很大一部分。

If you said maintaining a sustainable, relaxed, productive life and work style, I would say to that, to me, is a large format of what I would call successful.

这些正是我们辅导和协助人们培养的行为模式，比如捕捉、澄清、整理，建立一套系统化的方法来管理所有事项的清单，做到零残留，对承诺保持彻底的严谨和干净利落。

And those are the kind of behaviors that would the kinds that we that we coach and work with about, you know, capturing, clarifying, organizing, you know, having good systematic approach of managing the inventory of all of those things and no residue and being ruthless essentially with being, you know, seamless and squeaky clean about commitments.

我注意到，在你列出的捕捉、澄清、整理中，你停在了下一个问题即将引出的地方——那就是使用‘要事第一’系统的人，这个系统特别强调每周都要进行一次周回顾，以检视你在生活和工作中所有的承诺。

Well, I noticed, in your list of capturing, clarifying, organizing, you stopped before what the next question brings up, which is somebody who, employs the Getting Things Done system, which specifically talks about every week having a weekly review so that you're reviewing what your commitments are in your world and in your life.

有个人写道：我似乎总是无法每周都完成我的周回顾。

And this person writes, I don't seem to be able to accomplish my weekly review every week.

你有没有什么系统或方法，能帮我重新回到正轨，坚持做我的周回顾？

Do you have a system or some way that I can get back on track with doing my weekly review?

你知道吗，里克，这可能是人们一旦开始体会到‘要事第一’方法强大之处后，最常见的困扰，而不是抱怨——任何真正能减轻压力、让你感觉更专注的好系统，都是如此。

You know, Rick, that is probably the most common, not so much a complaint, but the most common frustration for people once they begin to catch how powerful implementing the getting things done methodology is and probably any good system that really sort of relieves the pressure and lets you feel more focused, etcetera.

但要维持这些系统，需要持续的行为习惯。

But they require behaviors to maintain them.

其中一个要求是，你必须回来反思和审视你的系统，照顾并维护它，确保它保持最新。

And one of the requirements is that you have to come back and reflect and review on your system and care and feed it and make sure that it stays current.

你看，高效能工作法的很大一部分价值在于，能够把记忆和提醒的任务从你的大脑中卸载出去。

See, a lot of the value of getting things done methodology is being able to offload off your psyche the job of remembering and reminding.

但要做到这一点，你不能欺骗自己的大脑。

In order to do that, though, you can't fool your own mind.

你的大脑知道，你是否按需查看了所有需要查看的内容。

It knows whether or not you've looked at what you need to look at as often as you need to look at it.

如果你没有这样做——这不仅仅是每周回顾，还包括如果你没有每天查看日历，而你知道自己应该这么做——那么你内心的一部分就会一直为此感到不安。

And if you're not doing that, and that's not just the Weekly Review, but if you're not looking daily at your calendar and you know you need to, then some part of you is gonna be bothered by that all the time.

这就是为什么我说，你需要训练自己，有一些行为能让你的大脑停止那种‘我应该想想’的感觉。

That's why I say, you know, you have to train yourself that there's there are behaviors that you do that then get your mind to stop that sense of, gee, I should be thinking.

我应该想想。

I should be thinking.

我该想些什么？

What should I be thinking about?

很多人在思考他们应该如何思考自己需要思考的事情，因为他们实际上没有完成这个练习。

A lot of people are thinking about how they need to be thinking about what they need to be thinking about because they actually don't finish the exercise.

我们弄清楚了你真正可以做的、能完成这个练习的方法。

And we figured out what you actually can do that finishes that exercise.

你需要把战略计划从脑海中移开。

You need to get the strategic plan off your mind.

你需要把你的项目从脑海中移开。

You need to get your projects off your mind.

如果你没有在做这些事，仅仅让它们停留在脑海中，大部分情况下只会成为干扰。

If you're not working on them, just being on your mind, for the most part, is gonna be a distraction.

这不会带来帮助。

It's not gonna be a help.

但要想把它们从脑海中移开，你必须把它们摆在眼前。

But in order to get it off your mind, you've gotta put it in front of your face.

主动出击，保持更新。

Step up to the plate and get current.

话说，我在这方面进展到哪了？

Say, where am I about that?

哦，那下一步就是这个。

Oh, that's the next step.

哦，得等他们回我之后我才能做。

Oh, I can't do anything about it till they get back to me.

没关系。

That's fine.

把它放下吧。

Put it to bed.

这些事光靠在脑子里想是解决不了的。

And that just won't happen in your head.

生活实在是太复杂了。

This life is much too complex.

所以我觉得，如果我们生来就会这些行为就好了，但事实并非如此。

So I think it's it'd be nice if we were born doing those behaviors, but we're not.

我们必须训练自己，更加意识到两点：第一，我们确实存在这些压力和紧张；第二，那些反思和回顾的行为正是消除它们的关键。

We have to train ourselves to become much more aware of, a, that we have those pressures and tensions and, b, that those kinds of reflective and reviewing behaviors are the ones that get rid of it.

在学习进行每周回顾时，有一些方法可以骗过自己。

There are some ways you can trick yourself to when you're learning to do a weekly review.

我总是建议把每周回顾和你喜欢的事情结合起来。

I always suggest marry it with something that you enjoy.

如果你喜欢听音乐，可以为自己创造一个舒适的环境；如果你知道有其他人也在进行每周回顾，可以邀请他们和你一起互相督促。

So if you like listening to music, if you can create a beautiful environment for yourself, if you know someone else that's trying to do their weekly review, ask them to buddy up with you.

甚至一些实际的做法也适用，比如你要去锻炼时，至少先把运动服穿上，这样你就更有可能出门去运动。

So even the practical things that it's like if you're going to exercise, if you just at least put on the clothes, you're more likely to go out and do it.

所以在刚开始的时候，给自己许可，去使用这些小技巧和方法。

So give yourself permission to those little use those tips and tricks when you're beginning.

有一件有趣的事，这不仅仅关乎每周回顾。

There's a funny thing, and it's not just about the Weekly Review.

这其实关乎如何持续坚持整个系统，但这一点同样适用于每周回顾的行为和习惯。

It's really about staying on with the system, but it applies to this to to to the Weekly Review behavior and habit as well.

如果你仍然依赖你的大脑，而不是你的系统，你就不会愿意去做这件事。

And that is if you're still trusting your mind, not your system, then you won't be motivated to do it.

所以，世界上最好的一个技巧就是彻底跳出去，把所有事情都放进系统里。

So one of the best tricks in the world is to truly jump off the end of the pier and put everything in the system.

因此，你必须去查看系统，才能知道该做什么。

So you have to go look at the system to know what to do.

我们判断你是否已精通这套完成任务和工作的‘武术’的一个指标是：你需要查看你的通话列表才能知道该给谁打电话，因为那件事已经不在你的脑海里了。

One of our indicators of you being black belt in this martial art of getting things done and the martial art of work is when you have to look at your calls list to know who to call because it's not on your mind.

但接着你得去拿起电话。

But then you have to go look at I'm at a phone.

我该给谁打电话？

Who do I have to call?

如果你的大脑里还记着那张清单，你就不会愿意去采取行动维护它。

If your mind has still got that list, you won't be motivated to go do what you need to do to maintain it.

所以，把记忆和提醒的任务交给系统，直到你开始信任它、必须信任它，这种行为的转变可能需要一段时间。

So offloading the job of remembering and reminding to your system and then, you know, enough so that you then start to trust it and then have to trust it, that change in behavior can take a while.

所以，人们需要放松一点，不要觉得‘我知道这件事很容易做，我应该去做’，实际上要达到那种状态需要相当大的习惯改变。

So, you know, people need to lighten up a little bit and not and feel like, I because I know this is easy to do and I should be doing it, it takes quite a bit of habit change to get to that place.

如果你现在只是在做月度或周度回顾，那你已经远远领先于大多数人了。

If you're at the place where you're just doing a monthly, weekly review, you know, you're way ahead of the planet.

所以你只需持续下去，越来越多地信任系统，而不是依赖你的内心。

So you just keep going and keep going and just more and more start trusting the system instead of your psyche.

你这样做的越多，这种习惯就越能更快地稳固下来。

And that will then the more you do that, then it'll speed up the process of that sticking.

稳固下来。

Sticking.

我知道，大卫，你跟我分享过一件事，对我自己的周度回顾实践帮助最大，我想你可能还记得。

And I know, David, one of the things you shared with me, which I found most helpful in my own Weekly Review practice was I don't you'll probably remember this.

你提到过，如果我不做周度回顾，我会付出什么代价，以及我实际上多久做一次。

You said something about the price I pay if I don't do the weekly review, how often I'm actually doing it.

你能再重复一遍吗？

Can you repeat that?

是的

Yeah.

问题是，如果你没有真正进行每周回顾，你其实一直在做每周回顾，但从来都没有真正完成。

Well, the the problem is if you're not really doing a weekly review, you're doing a weekly review all the time, but you're never really doing it.

你只是知道你应该做，于是你一直在想你该想什么、该想什么，除非你真正坐下来完成思考，否则你无法摆脱这个心结。

You just know you should be, and so you're sort of thinking about what you should be thinking about, what you should be thinking about, and you you can't get that monkey off your back until you actually sit down and finish the thinking.

所以，如果你没有真正回顾这些事项，你其实一直在回顾它们，但只是表面功夫。

So it's it's like if you're not reviewing any of these things, you're reviewing them all the time, but not really.

你并没有真正彻底地完成它。

You're not fully doing it.

如果你不建立一个系统性的方法来完成它，你就会一直觉得自己在失败，因为你明明知道应该如何思考，却没能做到。

So you're sort of being a failure all the time at what you know you should be thinking about the way you should be thinking about it if you don't build a systematic approach that gets it done.

对。

Yeah.

这真是促使我真正去做的绝佳动力。

That was a great incentive to actually do it.

我有个问题，关于《搞定》方法论和个人家庭生活。

I have a question here about, getting things done methodology and personal home life.

在你的系统中，你并不区分工作和家庭的待办事项和行动清单。

In your system, you don't differentiate between workplace and home to dos and action lists.

为什么这样设计？

Why is that?

因为你的大脑并不会把这些事情区分开来。

Well, your mind doesn't separate those things.

我经常说，如果你在凌晨两点被惊醒，你的大脑不会想：‘不好意思，我就不叫你了。',

You know, I always say, well, if you're gonna be woken up at 02:00 in the morning, your mind doesn't go, well, I'm so sorry.

这是个私事。

I won't wake you up.

所以，允许自己完全整合生活，这意味着通常只需要一个系统。

This is a personal item.

所以，允许自己完全整合生活，这意味着通常只需要一个系统。

So give yourself permission to integrate your life completely, and that means usually one system.

允许自己将整个生活的思考外化，而不仅仅是生活的一部分。

And allow yourself to externalize your thinking for all of your life, not just part of your life.

我们在系统中确实会区分你希望在何处收到提醒。

We do make distinctions in the system about where you want to be reminded about things.

换句话说，除非我在家，否则我不需要被提醒那些只能在家做的事项。

In other words, I don't need to be reminded about things to do at home that I can only do at home unless I'm at home.

因此，我确实不希望时刻面对我生活中所有需要完成的事情。

So, indeed, I don't wanna be having in front of my face all the things I need to do in my life all the time.

事实上，我们教导人们恰恰相反的做法。

As a matter of fact, we coach people exactly the opposite.

实际上，你面前应该只保留那些你现在就能做的事情。

Actually, you should only have in front of you only the things you could possibly do right now.

问题是，你很可能在任何地方都会想到这些事情中的任何一件。

The problem is is that you're likely to think about something about any of these things anywhere.

因此，你需要一种捕捉能力，能够随时随地记录你生活中的任何事项，因为这些事情正是在这些时候浮现的。

So you need a capture capability, you know, about any of your life anywhere because that's that's where these things show up.

当你处理并组织好这些事项后，如果你只想高效地完成那些可能做的事情，就需要被提醒。

And then once you process and organize them, then you need to be reminded of things if you just wanna be efficient where you could potentially do those.

当你外出办事时，你需要被提醒去完成那些杂务。

You need to be reminded of your errands when you're going out for errands.

如果你的老板就在你面前，你就需要被提醒要和他谈的事情。

You need to be reminded of things to talk to your boss about if they're sitting in front of you.

但如果他们不在，就别把这些事摆在我眼前。

But if they're not, get those out of my face.

我们已经够忙的了。

We've got enough to deal with.

因此，多年来我们发现，这其实不是关于个人事务与工作事务的区别。

So we've discovered over the years that it's not about really personal versus professional.

关键是，你在哪里能以最少的努力管理这个想法？你需要被提醒的是什么？

It's just like, look, where can you, with the least amount of effort, manage this thought, And what do you need to be reminded of?

比如，你在上班时，根本不需要被提醒在家要付的账单。

Like, you don't need to be reminded of the bills you need to pay at home when you're at work.

只要你在家有一个系统，那你回家后就直接在那里处理。

As long as you've got a system at home, then you just go home, and that's where you do it.

但你知道，重点并不在于有一个将它们合并的系统。

But, you know, again, that it's so it's not so much that there is a system that combines them.

而在于我们的系统性方法：这个想法在哪里？

Just it's our systematic approach that says, look, where's the thought?

这意味着什么？

Where does that mean?

你如何才能不让这个想法重复出现？

How can you not have that thought more than once?

你最需要被提醒的是什么，才能最高效？

And what do you need to be reminded of the most efficiently?

你在哪儿需要看到它？

Where do you need to see it?

是的。

Yes.

让我澄清一下。

Let me clarify that.

我不是说你需要有一个系统，而是强调你是一个完整的人，而不是半个的人，你可以选择自己的组织方式。

I wasn't saying you need to have one system, but the just the concept that you're a whole person, not a half person, and you can choose your organizational preference.

把所有事情从脑子里清空，这具有巨大的价值。

It's just there's tremendous value of getting it all out of your head.

我们在辅导时经常说：你是希望100%信任自己，还是只信任80%？

One thing I say when we're coaching is, would you like to trust yourself a 100% or 80%?

正如玛丽安所提到的，很多人并不习惯在心理上把这些事情整合起来。

And to Marian's point, many people are just not used to combining those things in their psyche.

我的意思是，我们辅导过的许多高管，在和我们合作后，才终于允许自己回家后，以与职场同等的严谨程度，为自己建立一个处理所有事务的系统。

I mean, many executives that we coach, their big ahas to give themselves permission after we work with them to go home and create a system at home for all the stuff with the same kind of rigor that they've set up their professional worlds.

因为很多人个人生活已经一团糟，正是因为忽视了个人生活。

Because a lot of them, their personal life's kind of gone to hell in a handbasket because they didn't focus on their personal life.

许多人拥有非常成功的行为模式，但他们自己并没有意识到这些行为，因此无法将它们应用到生活的其他领域。

Many people have very successful behaviors, but they're not aware of those behaviors, so they can't translate them to other areas in their life.

所以，很多人在工作中有高效的行为，但却没有把这些行为应用到个人生活中。

So, you know, many people are have successful behaviors at work, but they don't apply those into their personal life.

但正如玛丽安所说，这些行为和你所处理的事情都是普遍适用的。

But as Marian said, we you know, those behaviors and those things you work with are universal things.

一旦你意识到这一点，你就会获得自由，而且很可能就会想要这么做。

So once you catch that, then you have the freedom, and you probably would want to.

很多人会非常兴奋地回家，打造一个家庭办公室，认真管理所有事务，因为这些事情同样在困扰着他们，把它们从脑海中清除出去，和做其他任何事情一样重要。

A lot of people get very excited to go home and create a a home office and to manage all their stuff, really, because all of those things are as much impinging on them, and get getting their those off their mind is as important as anything else as well.

下一个问题是，这个人觉得自己的组织系统已经完善了。

This next question, the person feels like they have their organizational systems intact.

他们已经实施了很多《搞定》方法论，但却始终无法进入创造阶段。

They've implemented a lot of the getting things done methodology, but they just don't ever seem to be able to get to the creative part.

他们似乎总是抽不出时间来进行创造性工作或战略规划。

They they don't seem to be able to make enough time to be creative or do the strategic planning.

你有什么建议，能帮助他们最好地腾出时间来做这些事吗？

Do you have any coaching on how best to be able to find time for that?

这些年来，很多反馈是，即使人们开始实施我们的方法，建立起良好的日常个人执行系统，开始处理事务，列好清单，日常事务在脑海中变得清晰。

A lot of the feedback over the years has been even if people start to implement our stuff and get really get a good personal tactical system on a daily basis, starting to work the thing, and they've got their list, and their head is pretty clear with the day to day.

但他们的下一个层次，就是你所提到的。

But their next level would be what you're talking about.

我该如何进一步提升，确保自己关注的是二万、三万、四万英尺高度的事务，就像我关注其他事情那样？

How do I now move up to make making sure that I'm looking at twenty, thirty, 40,000 foot kinds of things like I'm looking at the other stuff?

这更加微妙。

It's more subtle.

当我们谈论那些你尚未澄清、分类并妥善存放的事项时，随着你提升关注的层次，这些事项会变得更加微妙。

Know, when we when we talk about stuff, meaning the things that you have attention on that haven't been clarified yet and sorted and parked in the appropriate places, as you move up the horizons of focus, they get more subtle.

如果我问你，你的健康状况如何？

If I say, how are doing about health?

你的关系状况如何？

You know, how are you doing about relationships?

你的育儿状况如何？

How are you doing about parenting?

你对自己的资产状况怎么样？

How are you doing about your assets.

人们会说，哦，是啊。

People go, oh, yeah.

哦，这件事一直让我烦心，但我没把它写在清单上，因为没那么明显。

Oh, that's been bugging me, but I didn't write it down on the list because it wasn't that obvious.

然后，你知道，你会上升到思考什么对你真正、真正、真正重要，或者五年后你真正想成为的样子。

And then, you know, you get up to, well, what's really, really, really important to you or where you really wanna be five years from now.

当你开始在这些层面思考时，就会出现更微妙的未完成事项，如果你愿意这么说的话。

You start to think at those levels, and it's subtler kinds of open loops, if you will.

它们仍然是同一种未完成事项，如果你掌握了GTD方法论，一旦你意识到它们，就能立刻捕捉到。

They're still the same kind of open loops that if you catch the GTD methodology, you would have caught them as soon as you were aware of it.

因此，通常需要一些成熟度、一些 sophistication，以及一些对这个过程的经验，才能开始识别那些更微妙、值得你去抓住的事物。

So oftentimes, it takes a little maturity and a little sophistication and a little experience with the process to start recognize those more subtle kinds of things that you would wanna grab.

比如，我需要更有创造力。

Like, well, I need to be more creative.

关于什么？

About what?

你知道的。

You know?

哦，对了。

And, oh, yeah.

你知道，我需要更多时间来种植。

You know, I'd like I need more time to plant.

对。

Right.

那么，你的下一步行动是什么？

Well, so what's your next action?

所以你要开始为你的创造力构建实际的行动和具体的形式，就像其他任何事情一样。

So you get down to actually starting to structure real actions and real formats for your creativity, just like anything else.

我们还使用'心理图谱'这个术语。

We also use the term psychogram.

换句话说，你可用的资源是有限的。

In other words, well, you only have so much available.

如果你觉得自己被邮件淹没，或者被身边的便签纸和会议记录压得喘不过气，那就很难再想：‘我真希望能规划一下X、Y或Z活动。’

And if you feel like you're drowning in emails or those pads of paper around you or the meeting notes, it's pretty hard to think, well, I'd sure love to plan x or y or z activity.

所以我们采取的一种方法是，先把所有这些东西收集起来，然后进行处理和整理，对它们做出决策。

So one of the approaches that we take is to collect all of that, then to process and organize it, make decisions about all of that.

这能释放你的创造力。

That results in freeing up your creativity.

因此，你内心会腾出更多空间，甚至能开始进行你真正想进行的那些讨论。

So you have more space internally available to even begin to have those discussions that you'd want to want to have.

我觉得这还涉及个人层面的问题。

I think there's a personal thing too.

我觉得不同的人有不同的个人风格。

I think people different different people have different personal styles.

就我而言，我花了好几年才明白，我需要在每天结束时留出一些时间，什么也不做，漫无目的地走走，这种无所事事、无意图的专注，是我创意过程中的一个重要部分。

I know for me, it took a number of years to learn that I need to give myself time at the end of the day to do nothing and wander around with no agenda, that there's a part of my creative process that ties to that kind of nonactivity and and nonintentional focus.