修复你的心态：Les与Leslie Parrot博士对谈

我们这些爱耶稣的人，对吧？

Those of us that love Jesus, right?

没有定罪。

And no condemnation.

内疚就是自我定罪、自我惩罚。

That's, guilt is all self condemnation, self punishment.

但是要

But to

回答你的问题，你不必为感到内疚而内疚。

answer your question, you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling guilty.

是的。

Yeah.

你只需要意识到，有一扇恩典之窗，你可以走出去

It's just that you should feel like there's a window of grace I can step out

。

of.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

就像在接受治疗时，我积累了大量的内疚感，回想起童年时期，我想：天啊，这就是我为什么会有这种感觉的原因。

Like being in therapy, I had so much guilt and going back to when I'm a child, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is why I feel this way.

这简直太疯狂了。

And it just, it's insane.

但这就是为什么我说内疚是自己滋生的，对吧？

But that's why I say guilt is homegrown, right?

你的良知是被灌输了什么就编程成什么的。

Your conscience comes programmed with whatever was put into it.

它不是来自圣灵，也不是来自上帝，对吧？

It's not from the Holy Spirit, it's not from God, right?

所以我们学会了该为哪些事情感到内疚。

And so we learn what to feel guilty about.

我们感到内疚的一些事情其实是虚假内疚的结果。

And some of the things that we feel guilty about are the result of false guilt.

这并不真实。

It's not true.

你不应该为一些你正在内疚的事情感到内疚。

You shouldn't be feeling guilty about some things that you're feeling guilty about.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

所以，第一章的核心就是让你从自我谴责中解脱出来。

So that's what this whole first chapter is about, is to free yourself from that self condemnation.

因为当你步入恩典时。

Because by stepping into grace.

没错。

Yes.

我觉得我过去就是这样，因为我已经克服了内疚的良心，我的也是，我们俩的都源于童年时期的经历。

I feel like I have in the past, because I have really overcome like guilty conscience and mine also, both of ours comes from like childhood stuff.

我觉得你们常常会知道，这种内疚感往往是在一种责备环境中滋生和形成的。

And I feel like you guys would know this oftentimes that's bred and born in an environment of like a blame system.

比如，你的父母责怪你，你的兄弟姐妹责怪你，每个人都互相指责。

Like, your parents blame you, your siblings blame you, everyone's just blaming each other.

所以你学会了感到内疚。对我来说，过去——你知道的，在我开始做这项工作之前的许多年里，感到内疚反而让我觉得自己还不错，你知道吗？

So you learn to just feel guilty And all the I think for me, the past, you know, however many years of my life until I started doing this work, it would make me feel good about myself to feel guilty, you know?

我觉得这好像是一种正义感什么的。

I Feel like it's righteous or something.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我觉得自己是个好人，我长久以来都这么觉得。

And like, I'm, oh, I'm a good per I felt that for so long.

我觉得自己是个更好的人。

Like I'm a better person.

我做了伤害别人的事，但我是个好人，因为我狠狠地责备自己。

I've done something that's hurt someone, but I'm a good person because I'm beating myself up so badly.

所以这简直像是一种自我保护机制。

So it's almost like this self protecting thing.

但当你遇见耶稣时，他赐给你恩典的礼物，让你明白，正如你所说的，没有定罪。

Whereas you meet Jesus and then he allows you to the gift of grace where you realize, like what you said, no condemnation.

感到内疚对任何人都没有帮助。

You don't feeling guilty does nothing for anybody.

对。

Right.

它既不能解决你的问题，也不能解决别人的问题。

It doesn't fix anything for you or the other person.

所以我喜欢我们讨论这一点。

So I love that we talk about that.

如果你长时间紧抓不放，它就会变得僵化。

And if you hold onto it long enough, it petrifies.

它会变成羞耻。

It turns into shame.

是的。

Yeah.

你不仅仅因为做过的事感到内疚，而是因为你是谁而感到内疚。

You don't just feel guilty about something you've done, you feel guilty about who you are.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这真的很有害，

And that's really toxic,

当然。

of course.

是的。

Yeah.

呃。

Ugh.

让我们从内疚中解脱吧。

Let's get free from guilt.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

你觉得

Do you think

内疚和强迫性思维是根本问题。

that guilt and obsessive compulsive thinking are the Great question.

是的，

Yeah,

绝对如此。

absolutely.

是的，你知道强迫症很复杂，但其中有一方面是：只要我做得完美，一切就会好起来。

Yeah, you know that OCD is complex but there is a facet of it that is if I just do it perfectly, everything will be okay.

上帝治愈了我，因为我从小就有严重的强迫性思维，以至于我内心备受折磨，不断反复回想各种情境，长期承受着巨大的内疚。

Which God heals because I growing up had major obsessive compulsive thinking to the point where like, I was so tormented in my mind, replay situations over and over, lived with an immense Yeah.

整天反复思虑，充满巨大的内疚。

Ruminate all day, immense amount of guilt.

我从那种状态中得到了极大的医治，我从未想过自己会得医治。

And I have been healed so much from that where I never thought I would be healed.

我以为我这一生都得与之共存，还得靠药物维持。

I thought I'd have to live with this for the rest of my life and be on medication.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

多么美好的见证啊。

What a beautiful testimony.

是的。

Yeah.

恩典的见证。

Of grace.

嗯，是恩典。

Uh-huh, of grace.

嗯。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

所以第一个负面想法就是，你知道，认为内疚是我必须背负的东西，哇。

So that's the first bad thought, you know, is that this idea of thinking that guilt is something that I need to carry around Wow.

而且我

And I

已经释放了那么多人。

just freed so many people.

因为我觉得我们所有人，是的，对内疚都有误解，而且

Because I think we all, yeah, have misconception about what guilt is and

嗯。

yeah.

在基督里的人就没有定罪了，所以第二个是讨好病。

No condemnation for those of us that are in Christ So the second one is about the disease to please.

你有没有患过取悦症？

Have you ever suffered from the disease to please?

我从来不是个讨好别人的人。

I've never been a people pleaser.

是的。

Yes.

取悦症是怎么得上的？

Disease How do get

很多。

a lot

乐趣？

of fun?

取悦症。

Disease to please.

我觉得我都有这些。

I think I have all of those.

所有人都会，这是事实。

All do, that's the truth.

我们在某种程度上都会这样。

We do to some degree or another.

但取悦症的核心在于，我们都渴望被接纳。

But the disease to please is all about being we all want to be accepted.

我们都希望被接纳，因此，任何可能招致他人拒绝的行为都令人恐惧。

All want to be And so to do anything that would risk that, to be rejected by somebody, is scary.

事实上，当犹大和我刚开始从事这项工作时，他第一个表现出来的就是根本说不出‘不’字。

And so, in fact, it was the very first thing that Judah and I, when we got into this work, that he was just, he couldn't say no.

他根本无法设立界限。

He just could not set a boundary.

他无法对任何人说‘不’。

He couldn't say no to anybody.

他本人也会第一个承认这一点。

He- He would be the first to admit that.

哦，是的，他确实在这本书中承认了这一点。

Oh yes, well he admits it in this book, for sure.

而且，你知道，我们在治疗他取悦他人的疾病，但当我们患有这种取悦症时，我们就不再真实了。

And, you know, so we work on curing his disease to please, but what happens is when we have this disease to please, we are no longer authentic.

我们活在了宜人镇。

We're living in Pleasantville.

一切都很好，我们压抑所有负面的东西，任何可能引发摩擦的事情，我们都想把它扫走，只保持表面的和谐。

Everything's just fine, and we bury everything that's negative, and anything that is, you know, possibly going to cause friction, we just wanna kind of sweep that away and just keep it pleasant.

而你不可能拥有真正的关系，因为关系只停留在这个深度。

And that you can't have an authentic relationship because it's only this deep.

所以，我们以前谈过，冲突是我们为更深层次关系所付出的代价。

And so, you know, we've talked before about how conflict is the price we pay for a deeper relationship.

而冲突正是这种取悦症患者所极度厌恶的。

And conflict is something that people that suffer from this disease, so please abhor.

完全厌恶。

At all

成本。

costs.

对，

Right,

而且我认为我们也稍微谈过依恋风格的力量。

And I think we've also talked a little bit about the power of attachment styles.

当你对依恋感到焦虑时，你会觉得如果我不让你满意，我就会失去你。

And when you're anxious about attachment, it feels like if I displease you, I will lose you.

哇，是的。

Wow, yeah.

而这正是让我们深受这种取悦症困扰的一部分原因。

And that's part of what makes us suffer from this disease to please.

我们必须拥有真正的关系，其中必须有脆弱性。

We have to be, you know, have a real relationship, there has to be vulnerability.

而脆弱性有时会让对方感到害怕，因为你说了些他们不想听的话。

And vulnerability sometimes is scary to the other person because you're saying stuff that they don't want to hear.

如果你患有取悦症，你不会那样做，那你又会做什么呢？

And if you suffer from the disease to please, you don't do that, what do you do?

你戴上了一副面具。

You wear a mask.

你变成了一个不是你自己的人。

You become something that you're not.

于是，你表现得一切都很美好，而实际上并非如此。

And so you act like everything's good when it really isn't.

于是，这仅仅变成了一种虚假的关系，一种伪关系。

And so it just becomes a pseudo relationship, a false relationship.

我非常喜欢这一点，因为耶稣讲过一个关于取悦症的故事。

I love this because there is a story, a parable Jesus told about the disease to please.

故事里有两个兄弟，父亲问他们：你们愿意为我完成这个任务吗？

They're the brothers and the dad asked two brothers, will you do this assignment for me?

其中一个回答：当然，我会去做。

And one of them said, absolutely, I'll do it.

另一个兄弟说：不，我不会做。

And the other one said, nope, not gonna do it.

但那个说不的兄弟后来想了想，又回去做了。

But the brother that said no, thought about it later, went back and did it.

而那个出于取悦的欲望、本能地答应的兄弟，却根本没有兑现承诺——太多‘是’并不是发自内心的。

And the brother that said yes out of a desire, reflexive desire to please just didn't follow through too many yeses didn't come from authenticity.

哇。

Wow.

然后

Then

耶稣说：谁真正取悦了父亲？

Jesus said, who pleased the Father?

对。

Right.

我认为我们也是如此。

And I think that's what happens to us.

你知道，我们只是本能地想说正确的话，但内心可能并不真诚，也可能做不到，因此这并不是一种真正的爱的举动。

You know, we just reflexively want to say the right thing, but our heart might not be in it, we might not be capable of it, and so it doesn't turn out to be a genuine, you know, act of love.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们拥有的每一段关系，刚开始时都只是停留在表面，当我们刚刚认识某人时，对吧？

Every relationship that we have starts at a really surface level, just when we're getting to know somebody, right?

这是一种印象管理。

And it's impression management.

我们试图表现出某种样子，让对方喜欢上我们，对吧？

We're trying to look a certain way, come across in a way that they'll like us, right?

这很肤浅。

It's shallow.

这很

It's

非常肤浅。

Very shallow.

有点虚假。

Kind of pseudo.

虚假，没错。

Pseudo, yes.

而你这么做，就像你在教堂门厅里跟某人聊天，那种你只是偶尔见到的人。

And how you do, it's like the conversation you might have with somebody in the church foyer, you know, that you just see every once in a while.

你最近怎么样？

How you doing?

哦，很棒。

Oh, great.

嘿，高尔夫打得怎么样？

Hey, how's that golf game going?

哦，棒极了。

Oh, it's fantastic.

你呢？

How about you?

哦，还不错。

Oh, it's good.

我们改天一起去吧。

We ought to go together sometime.

是啊，就这么说定了，对吧？

Yeah, let's do that, right?

好的，再见，老兄。

Okay, see you, man.

就是这样，对吧？

That's it, right?

这只不过是一英寸深。

That's just an inch deep.

哦，没什么要

There's Oh, nothing to

严峻地且

grimly and

不错，是的。

nice yeah.

而且

And

但假设同一个人，如果他今晚开车从洛杉矶出发去波士顿，这种假关系能维持多久？

But let's say that same person, if he got in a car and drove from Los Angeles to Boston starting tonight, how long would it stay at that pseudo relationship?

不会太久。

Not long.

如果你是真心的，对吧？

Not if you're real, right?

如果你有取悦别人的病，这种关系会贯穿整个国家，但最终，如果你是个真实的人，你会想：嘿，我不太喜欢我们听的这种音乐。

If you have the disease to please, it stays there clear across the whole country, But eventually, if you're a real person, you go, Hey, I'm not crazy about this music that we're listening to.

我能换台吗？

Can I change the channel?

你知道，或者，你介意我开一会儿车吗？因为，你知道的，随便什么理由。

You know, or, do you mind if I drive for a little while because, you know, whatever.

你昨晚开车时特别在意自己的驾驶方式。

You were so self conscious about how you were driving last night.

你在开车时也有取悦他人的倾向吗？

Do you have the disease to please when it comes to driving your car,

对吧？

don't you?

是的，因为我了解自己在洛杉矶的驾驶风格，那真的很艰难。

Yeah, because I know how I drive in LA and it's tough.

而且我感受到了。

And I felt that

你从来没坐过我丈夫开的车。

You've never ridden with my husband.

我知道。

I know.

你坐过。

You did.

所以我们所有人坐车时都会缩一下。

So it's because we all flinch when we're in the car.

所以我们就这样。

So we go like this.

阿里简直会避开路缘。

Ari literally closes the curbs.

当我开车时，阿里会闭上眼睛，这让我对自己的驾驶技术非常不自信。

Ari closes her eyes when I drive, and that's made me very insecure about my driving.

每次和她一起坐车，我都觉得自己的寿命缩短了好几年。

I like lose years off my life every time I get in a car with her.

这就是为什么你今天在演播室见这里吗？

Is that why you met here at the studio today?

我们一起开车吧。

We'll drive together.

嗯。

Yeah.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我们会一起开车。

We'll drive together.

我不能。

I can't.

所以是伪关系。

So pseudo relationship.

如果你们在一起足够久，开始变得真实，事情就会有点混乱，对吧？

If you're together long enough and you start to get real, things get a little chaotic, right?

然后你会觉得，哇，接下来会发生什么？

And it feels like, oh wow, what's gonna happen here?

这太尴尬了。

This is this is awkward.

这里失去了平衡，完全没有协调。

This is, there's disequilibrium here and there's no balance.

别把这个问题看成神学问题，我觉得。

Don't see this theological issue, I'd say,

或者

or

政治观点，或者我们不想在同一个地方吃饭。

political perspective, or we don't want to stop at the same place for food.

不管是什么，总会有一些我们看法不一致的地方，对吧？

Whatever it is, there's going to be something that we don't see eye to eye on, okay?

而这种小小的混乱，通常会在关系中的一方放下改变对方的执念时得到解决。

And that little bit of chaos gets resolved generally when one or the other people in the relationship kind of empties themself of their need to change that person.

他们会说：好吧，我不太喜欢墨西哥菜，但如果你想要，我可以接受。

They go, Okay, I'm not crazy about going to Mexican food, but if that's what you want, I can do that.

我们就这么办吧。

Let's do it.

对吧？

Right?

我会放下非要去吃意大利菜之类的执念，你知道，这很荒谬

I'm going to empty my need to go to Italian food or whatever, you know, it's silly

例证。

illustration.

这不好吗？

Is that bad?

不。

No.

哦，这并不是讨好别人，对吧？

Oh, that's not people pleasing, right?

但这取决于你是否一直这样生活，从不表达自己的愿望、观点或任何东西，那就是个问题。

Well, it depends if that's your lifestyle of doing that where you never want to exert your own desire and your own or your own views or whatever, that's a problem.

这是一种取悦症。

That's the disease to please.

好的。

Okay.

对吧？

Right?

很高兴你指出了这一点

I'm glad you made that

区别。

distinction.

是的，这真是一个

Yeah, that's a really

很好的观点。

good point.

那不是他要表达的

That's not what he's

意思。

talking about.

这是一个很好的澄清。

That's a great clarification.

我所说的是，要建立深厚的关系，必须放下自我，去改变对方。

What I'm talking about is in order to get to a deep relationship, there has to be some sense of emptying yourself to change the person.

但你必须冒着做真实自己的风险，混乱才可能显现出来。

But you had to risk being authentic for the chaos to even reveal itself.

是的，嗯。

Yeah, well.

顺便说一下，有时候当我们放下想要改变他人的需求时，不妨想想你现在生活中一段重要的关系——所有正在听我们讲话的人，都有一段重要的关系。

And by the way, sometimes the things that we empty ourselves of our need to change in another person, like just think of an important relationship to you right now, everybody that's listening to us, of an important relationship.

你可能心里想着：‘真希望他们能换种方式做这件事。’

There's something that you probably are thinking, Man, I wish they would do this differently.

对吧？

Right?

如果你放下想要改变这一点的需求，给予对方一点宽容，干脆说：‘我不会再对他们的X、Y、Z行为说什么了。’大多数情况下，那个让你烦恼的事情，反而会变成让你真正喜爱他们的原因。

You emptied yourself of your need to change that in them, if you offered them a little grace and just went, I'm not going to say anything about how they do X, Y, Z, More often than not, that thing that irritates you has the opportunity to literally become the thing that endears you to them.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

这是一种奇怪的心理，而且

It's a weird psychological And

我认为是精神层面的。

spiritual, I think.

我认为这其中有一种神秘的恩典成分。

There's this, I think a mystical grace component to it.

因为当你接纳一个人当下的样子，接纳他们与你的不同和缺点，并给予恩典时，这种恩典是具有转化力量的。

Because when you accept someone right where they are with their differences from you, their flaws, and you're offering grace and that grace is transforming.

确实是。

It is.

我知道。

I know.

是啊。

Yeah.

我突然想到一个滑稽的比喻来说明这一点。

I have a silly illustration of this that just came to mind.

我很久没想过这件事了。

I haven't thought about this for a long time.

我们刚结婚的时候，莱斯利，我记得我走进厨房，她正在切胡萝卜，她切胡萝卜的方式特别慢。

When we first got married, Leslie, I remember I came into the kitchen and she was cutting carrots and the way that she was cutting the carrots just was long.

我

I'm

是左撇子。

left handed.

我也是。

I am too.

我

I

我知道。

know.

我不按常规方式做事情

I don't do things the normal

就是这样，对吧？

way, right?

但看起来简直让我想说，天啊，你这样切胡萝卜肯定会割到手的。

But it just looked like, oh man, you're gonna I just said, you're gonna, you know, cut yourself the way you're cutting carrots like that.

你应该这样切。

You need to do it this way.

就像我在教她怎么切胡萝卜。

Like I'm teaching her how to cut carrots.

应该是这样

This is

说的就是你和我。

literally me and you.

我知道。

I know.

不是。

No.

这其实特别搞笑。

It's actually hilarious.

实际上是我和阿里。

Actually me and Ari.

会完全是这样，

Would literally be like,

我需要

I need

教你如何切胡萝卜。

to show you how to cut the carrots.

会说，莱斯莉想让我开心，所以她按照我的方式切胡萝卜，她也很配合，但一周后我再回来，她又回到原来那种切法了，你知道吗？

Would say And Leslie wants to please me, so she cuts carrots the way and she's receptive, but then I come back a week later and she's cutting carrots their same old way, you know?

因为我会在你看着的时候为你这么做，但之后我就不会想着这件事了，我

Because I would wanna do it for you while you were watching, but later I wouldn't be thinking about it and I

只是又回到原来的样子。

just Just revert back to whatever.

而且

And

所以不管怎样，这种情况持续了一段时间，最后我干脆接受了，这就是她切胡萝卜的方式。

so anyway, this went on for a while and finally I just kinda got to a place where I just went, Hey, that's just how she cuts carrots.

你知道，就是这样，我要放下了。

You know, that's just, I'm gonna empty myself.

我并没有有意识地说过这句话，但你懂我的意思吧？

I didn't consciously say that, but you know what I mean?

奇怪的是，在我们婚姻的某个阶段，如果她不是按照自己的方式切胡萝卜，我反而会觉得失落。

The strange thing is that somewhere in the course of our marriage, it's almost like I would be disappointed if she wasn't cutting carrots

她的那种方式。

her way.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

就像，这就是我妻子莱斯利切胡萝卜的方式。

Like, that's how my Leslie cuts carrots.

你知道吗？

You know?

这只是一个可笑的比喻。

It's just a silly illustration.

就像，知道莱斯利怎么切胡萝卜。

It's like, know Leslie cuts carrots.

不。

No.

不过我们确实也有类似的事情。

We do have things like that though.

我们确实有。

We do.

比如，我能说一个吗？

For example, can I say one?

我最大的烦心事，不是最大的烦心事，但确实，当我第一次认识阿里时，我一直不明白为什么。

My biggest my biggest pet peeve in the world not my biggest pet peeve, but yeah, I guess, was always when I first met Ari, I couldn't understand why.

我们做朋友的头两年几乎住在一起，直到我搬走。

And we practically lived together for the first two years that we were friends until I moved.

阿里打开番茄酱或蜂蜜之类的东西，但就是放在那儿，不把盖子盖回去。

Ari opens like ketchup or honey or something, but like the just like leaves it there and doesn't put the top back on.

这样方便多了，实在太方便了。

It's way more convenient that It's so convenient.

当我刚和她成为朋友时，这简直让我抓狂，我会告诉她

And when I when I first became friends with her, I it would make me like lose my mind and I would tell

她会说

her like

快疯了。

Tweak out.

这并不

It not

甚至不是我家。

even my house.

这甚至不是我的房子。

It's not even my house.

我会说，你不能这样。

And I'd be like, oh, you can't do this.

你不能这样。

Like, you can't do this.

我可不是在开玩笑。

And I'm not even kidding.

随着时间推移，我就在我们家，或者说我昨晚就住那儿了。

Over time, I was just at our house yester or, yeah, I stayed there last night.

我半夜回家时，看到你家台面上有东西开着，我就想，我太爱她了。

I saw something open on the counter when I got home at your house at midnight, and I go, I love her so much.

我本来会想，我太爱她了。

I would have thought I love her so much.

而且有点

And kind

如果那里没有，我会感到失望。

of be disappointed if it wasn't there.

是的。

Yeah.

太好笑了。

So funny.

这是我最近对莱斯利的新做法。

Here's my new thing with Leslie.

是什么

What is

？

it?

你可能会很惊讶。

You're gonna be surprised probably.

所以，你来过我们家，而且是黑灯瞎火的。

So we have dark you've been in our home.

我们家有深色木地板，而且

We have dark wooden floors and

嗯，我觉得这不会让人惊讶

Well, I don't think this is gonna surprise

这头金发

This this blonde hair

哦。

Oh.

可以

Can be

到处都是。

Everywhere.

我掉头发掉得像在羞耻。

I shed like I'm a Shame.

嗯。

Yeah.

知道吗？

Know?

嗯。

Yeah.

但我有一个，那个叫什么来着？

But I got a, what's the name of that?

戴森。

Dyson.

我有一个

I got

我有一个戴森

a I have a Dyson

换一下。

change.

我

I

有人意思是，是的。

somebody mean, Yes.

带着灯的。

With the light on it.

带着灯的。

With the light on it.

所以你

So you

看得一清二楚。

see everything.

好的。

Okay.

等等。

Wait.

你在说那个不错的发型，这很好。

You're talking about the hairstyle, which is good.

但他谈的是吸尘器。

But he's talking about a vacuum.

你在谈吸尘器。

You're talking about a vacuum.

好的。

Okay.

Dice Ariel，你觉得谁有这种碎发造型。

Dice Ariel, you think who has this dice bangs.

这就像一种修剪工具。

It's like a a thing to cut

剪你的头发。

your hair.

不。

No.

这就像一款漂亮的造型吹风机。

It's like a beautiful style dryer.

我离开我的办公桌了

I'm out of my desk

到这个时候了。

at this point.

我不知道。

I don't know.

他在切碎东西。

He's dicing.

是的。

Yeah.

所有

All

我只知道，一个月前我们买了这个吸尘器，它有个灯，我当时就想，天啊，你得多梳梳头，因为我喜欢吸走头发

I all I know is that when we got this vacuum a month ago and it has this light, I'm like, man, you need to brush your hair more because I love vacuuming up

你的头发。

your hair.

等等。

Wait.

不过那真的很真实。

That's so real, though.

试试

Try

不要

not to be

满意因为那正是

satisfied because that's

怎么回事。

what's going on.

只是，主啊，请赐予

Just, Lord, please bring

我一个能从那种事中获得快乐的人。

me someone that, like, takes joy in that.

这真的很温馨。

That is really sweet.

这很温馨。

That's sweet.

嗯，约翰最近告诉我，有一件事让他特别感动，因为我搬家了，所以买了所有新家具，但我这个人有个习惯：买一件家具后，得让它在我家放几天，然后十次里有九次我都会退掉。

Well, John told me recently his he he told me recently that something that's been really endearing for him because I moved and so I got all new furniture, but I'm somebody who I have to have a piece of furniture and then let it sit in my house for a couple days and then nine out of 10 times I'll return it.

所以这就

And so that's

你是在买这个神秘的东西吗？

Are you buying this mysterious.

不是。

No.

所以我要承认，一开始，

So I admit at first at first,

他开始有点

he was starting to get a

有一点，因为我当时

little bit because I'd

我会说：宝贝，你能过来一下吗？

be like, baby, can you please come?

对不起啊。

Like, I'm so sorry.

这是一个大箱子，你能把它送到UPS帮我退回去吗？

It's a big box and can you come bring it to UPS and send it back for me?

头几次他都说：什么？你没必要这样。

And the first couple of times, he's like, what is like, trying to change be like, you don't need to do that.

你没必要试用这个。

You don't need to try out that.

你就在网站上看看喜不喜欢就行了，没必要非得拿回家试用。

Just see if you like it on the website, and you don't need to, like, audition it in your home.

但我就是觉得：不，我就是要。

And I'm like, yes, I do.

我必须知道它是否能放进那个空间。

I have to know if it fits in the space.

他最近告诉我，他和朋友聊天时说，是啊，安吉拉做很多奇怪的事。

And he told me recently, he was talking to his friend and was like, yeah, Angela does a lot of weird things.

比如，她喜欢买家具，然后两天内就退掉。

Like, for example, she loves buying furniture and then returning it in two days.

我得走上她的楼梯，把东西打包好，再提下楼，然后支付80美元

And I have to walk up her stairs, box it up for her, walk it downstairs, and then pay $80

为她寄出去。

to ship it out for her.

他问我，我能面带微笑做这些吗？

And he's like, can I do it with a smile on my face?

因为这就是她的风格。

Because it's just like that's her.

真美好。

That beautiful.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

她太完美了。

She's perfect.

我的天。

Oh my god.

这真温馨。

That is sweet.

不过这是真的。

It's true though.

当我们放下想要改变彼此的念头时，是的。

When we empty ourselves Yeah.

放下我们想要改变对方的需求，我认为这是很深的，没有圣灵的帮助，我觉得你做不到。

Of our need to change each other, which I think is a deep I don't think you can do it without the Holy Spirit.

正要说呢，

Was about to say,

是的，这让我们进入了真实的状态。

yeah, that moves us into genuine.

真实的关系，在这种关系中你可以放松。

Genuine relationship where you can like just relax.

你可以只是，就像坐在一张大大的皮质扶手椅里。

You can just, it's like sitting in a big leather easy chair.

现在处于这种关系中真的非常舒适，因为我可以畅所欲言。

It's just like, this is so comfortable to be in this relationship right now because I can say what's on my mind.

我不必害怕被评判。

I don't have to be afraid of being judged.

我知道即使我说得不够好，你也会接纳我。

I know you're going to accept me even if it comes out the wrong way.

这是一种难以置信的安全空间。

And that's an incredible safe space to be in.

但你无法通过取悦的疾病达到这种状态。

But you can't get there via the disease to please.

是的，因为你从不为了被接纳而冒险展现真实自我，所以你最糟糕的

Yeah, because you never risk the authenticity to be accepted in So your worst

人们必须看到你的阴暗面。

people have to see your dark side.

为了真正被爱，人们必须看到那些你不想让他们看到的你的部分。

People have to see, you know, parts of you that you don't want them to see in order for you to really be loved.

否则你只是到处戴着面具，每个人都只是爱你所呈现的印象。

Otherwise you're just wearing a mask all over the place and everybody's just loving the impression that you give.

哇，

Wow,

这太棒了。

That's great.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是第二章。

So that's the second chapter.

治愈疾病，以取悦他人并培养真实的关系。

Cure the disease to please and cultivate authentic relationships.

好吧。

So, alright.

所以第一个是内疚。

So that's the first one, guilt.

第二个是取悦症。

Second one, disease of pleas.

你想继续聊这个吗？

You wanna keep going on this?

当然。

Absolutely.

当然了。

Oh yeah.

这太完美了。

This is perfect.

好吧。

All right.

来吧。

Come on.

我可以在每一个上花上几个小时，配上例子。

I could spend hours on each one like with examples.

我们应该试着为它们举一些例子。

We should try to give examples on them.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为对我而言，这有帮助。

Because for me it helps me.

尽管每个人可能都懂。

Even though everyone probably understands.

我知道。

I know.

你是说你知道你

Are you I know what you

有时候可以做什么。

could do sometimes.

你知道你可以做什么吗？

You know what you could do?

读这本书。

Read the book.

嗯。

Yeah.

你可以读

You could read

这本书。

the book.

她读了那本书。

She read the read the book.

抱歉啊。

Sorry about that.

佩妮正在想象你的

Penny's picturing your

你那些没盖子的容器和打包好的家具。

your capless containers and your boxed up furniture.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

多好的例子啊。

Such good examples.

没错。

That yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

我们确实赢了。

We do get winning.

所以

So

第三章是消除自我怀疑，重燃你的勇气。

chapter three is extinguish self doubt and rekindle your courage.

消除自我怀疑。

Extinguish self doubt.

我们来谈谈这个。

Let's talk about that.

给我们举个例子。

Give us an example.

所以自我怀疑。

So self doubt.

你有没有怀疑过自己？

Well, have you ever doubted yourself?

有。

Yeah.

我们都这样。

We all do.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Yeah.

我们会有不安全感和无助感。

And we have feelings of insecurity and helplessness.

而且我觉得我做不到，什么都没有，我能做什么？

And like, I don't think I can, there's nothing, what can I do?

对吧？

Right?

我们失去了所有的勇气。

And we lose all sense of our courage.

你听说过马丁·塞利格曼这个名字吗？

Have you ever heard the name Martin Seligman?

他是一位心理学家，可能是当今最有影响力的心理学家。

He's a psychologist, probably the most influential living psychologist these days.

他曾一度担任美国心理学会的主席，具有相当大的影响力。

He was like the president for a while of the That American Psychological kind of influence.

他是一位重量级的心理学家，来自宾夕法尼亚大学。

Big, big time psychologist, University of Pennsylvania.

但作为一名研究生时，他进行了一项开创性的研究，听起来有点残酷，但我会解释这其实并非如此，这项研究涉及一些狗。

But just as a graduate student, he did this groundbreaking study that sounds a little cruel, but it's, I'll explain it's not, but it had to do with some dogs.

在那个时代，你听说过B。

And during the time, you've heard of B.

F。

F.

斯金纳的行为主义，是那个吗？不，不是。

Skinner behaviorism, is that, no, no.

不，我们可能不太了解你提到的大多数人

No, we probably don't know most of the people you

人们希望我们做的。

guys wish we do.

所以，但B。

So, but B.

F。

F.

斯金纳提出了整个行为主义理论，以及一种关于人们如何通过强化来塑造自我的哲学。

Skinner came up with this whole thing called behaviorism and kind of a philosophy of how people learn to be who they are by getting reinforcement.

并通过

And getting

奖励或强化，你就会更倾向于重复那种行为。

reward or reinforcement, you tend to do that thing more.

是的。

Yeah.

总之，这在他七十岁时非常流行。

So anyway, that was really popular in his seventies.

马丁·塞利格曼在那时刚读研究生。

Martin Seligman kind of came through graduate school at that time.

所以他当时在做一项关于行为主义和奖励的实验，对象是狗。

So And he was doing this experiment with these dogs on behaviorism and rewards and so forth.

他用了一个叫作‘穿梭箱’的装置。

And so he had this thing called a shuttle box.

那只是一个内部有隔板的箱子，狗会被关在里面。

It was just a box that the dog would be in with a little partition.

他让狗坐在穿梭箱的这一侧。

And what he was doing was have the dog sit on this side of the shuttle box.

你知道吗，有时候冬天摸门把手会被电一下，那种电击很轻微，但足以让人想避开它。

And you know how like sometimes when you touch a doorknob on a winter day, it can shock you, a pretty mild shock, but enough that you want to avoid it.

他会在箱底安装金属板，狗的爪子会感受到这种程度的电击。

He would have a little metal plate in the bottom and their little paws would feel that level of a shock.

大多数狗都会跳过那个小隔板，跑到另一侧。

And most dogs just jump over the little barrier and go to the other side.

所以他只是在测量狗需要多少次尝试才能做到这一点，哦，好吧。

So all he was doing was measuring how many trials did it take for him to do that, for the dog Oh, okay.

去做

To do

嗯。

Yeah.

然后我就不会再被电到了。

And then now I won't get the shock.

对，然后它们就会把这种感觉和蜂鸣声、铃声之类的东西联系起来；即使没有电击，只要听到铃声，它们也会跳过去，这只是一个标准的心理学实验。

Right, and then they would associate it with a buzzer or a bell or something like And then even without a shock, just hearing the bell, they would go over, it's just a kind of standard psychological study.

但在实验过程中，他发现有一小部分狗并没有跳过屏障，经过三、四次、十次、十二次尝试后还是不跳。

But in the course of the study, he discovered there was a handful of dogs that weren't jumping over the barrier, three, four, ten, twelve trials.

它们只是坐着，一次又一次地承受电击。

They would just sit down and take the shock again and again.

他感到非常困惑，不明白这些狗怎么了。

And he was like, could not understand what's wrong with these dogs.

直到另一位实验者介入并说：‘马蒂，这些狗之前参加过一个实验，那时它们无法跳过屏障。’

And it wasn't until another experimenter kind of entered the scene and said, Oh, Marty, he said, these dogs were used in an experiment a while ago where they couldn't jump over the barrier.

它们当时不被允许跳过屏障，整个过程持续了很长时间。他意识到，这些狗陷入了他所说的‘习得性无助’。

They weren't allowed to jump over the barrier, it was for a whole And different what he realized is these dogs had fallen victim to what he called learned helplessness.

哇。

Wow.

习得性无助。

Learned helplessness.

这是一个革命性的观点：我们可能会学会变得无助。

And this was a revolutionary thought that we can learn to be helpless.

如果你仔细想想，另一个例子发生在二战末期的集中营：当人们进去营救那些处境悲惨的囚犯时，他们发现……

And if you think about it, another example, toward the end of World War II in concentration camps, what they discovered, they went in to rescue all these prisoners that, you know, were just in dire straits.

他们意识到，那时囚犯们其实完全可以轻松逃出集中营。

And what they realized is they could have easily walked out of the camps at that stage.

但他们没有逃，因为他们已经学会了：你无法逃脱，对吧？

But they didn't because they just learned you can't escape, right?

习得性无助。

Learned helplessness.

所以这些是身体上的例子。

So those are physical examples.

但我们经常在心里对自己这样想。

But we do that in our head all the time.

对自己。

To ourselves.

是的，对自己，这就是为什么这是一种有毒的想法，因为它摧毁了我们生活中拥有勇气的能力。

Yeah, to ourselves, that's why it's a toxic thought, is that, and it dismantles our capacity to have courage in our lives.

因为，‘我家里没人上过大学，所以我也不能上大学。’

Because, Oh, nobody in my family's ever gone to college, so I can't go to college.

我们只是给自己设定了界限，认为做不到，而其实并非如此。

You know, we just put perimeters on ourselves and think it's impossible to do when it's not.

我们只是学会了无助。

We've just learned to be helpless.

哇。

Wow.

而且因为

And Because

我们觉得我们自己有问题，这种情况永远不会改变。

we feel like something's wrong with us, it will never change.

然后我们把它当成个人问题。

Then we take it personally.

是的，如果你把事情当成个人问题，这里有三点，顺便说一下，这也会导致抑郁。

Yeah, and if you take something personally, there's three things and this goes to depression too, by the way.

这就是临床抑郁的成因。

This is the making of clinical depression.

你把事情当成个人问题，认为它普遍存在且永久不变。

You take something personal, you believe it's pervasive and it's permanent.

如果你相信这三点，你就会陷入抑郁。

You believe those three things, you're gonna get depressed.