美国表示对伊朗的战争不会"无休无止"

这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

这并不是我们被承诺的未来。

This is not the future we were promised.

比如，这个作为节目的标语怎么样？

Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

来自BBC，这里是《界面》，一档探索科技如何重塑你的一周和整个世界的节目。

From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

这与季度收益或科技评测无关。

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

它关注的是技术实际上如何影响你的工作、政治和日常生活。

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

以及人们使用互联网的各种奇特方式。

And all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.

在bbc.com或你收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是来自BBC世界服务的全球新闻播客。

This is the global news podcast from the BBC World Service.

我是塞莉亚·哈顿，今天是3月2日星期一，格林尼治时间16:00，以下是我们的主要新闻。

I'm Celia Hatton, and at sixteen hundred GMT on Monday, March 2, these are our main stories.

美国、以色列与伊朗的战争进入第三天。

The US Israel war with Iran enters its third day.

冲突正在扩大，以色列对伊朗支持的武装组织黎巴嫩真主党发动了袭击。

The conflict is broadening with Israel striking the Iran backed militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon.

美国国防部长佩特·海格塞斯表示，美国正在执行一项毁灭性任务，美军正试图摧毁伊朗的安全基础设施。

The US defense secretary Pete Hegzeth says The US is carrying out a devastating mission with US forces trying to destroy Iran's security infrastructure.

伊朗官员仍态度强硬。

Iranian officials remain defiant.

伊朗最高国家安全委员会主席表示，伊朗将坚决自卫，并让其敌人为自己的误判感到后悔。

The head of the country's supreme national security council said Iran would fiercely defend itself and make its enemies sorry for what he called their miscalculation.

本播客中还提到，随着伊朗的报复，该地区多个首都城市都听到了爆炸声，包括阿布扎比、科威特城和多哈。

Also in this podcast, explosions have been heard in capital cities across the region, including Abu Dhabi, Kuwait City, and in Doha as Iran retaliates.

我们经常听到空中爆炸声，因为卡塔尔方面正在拦截导弹和无人机。

We do hear regularly explosions in the air as the Qataris intercept missiles and drones.

由于坠落的碎片，已造成一些损坏和数人受伤。

There's been some damage and several injuries as a result of falling debris.

在伊朗境内，红十字会表示，已有555人在袭击中丧生。

And inside Iran, the Red Cross says five hundred and fifty five people have been killed in the attacks.

我们一直在接收来自现场的消息。

We've been receiving messages from those on the ground.

人们同时感到焦虑和兴奋。

People feel anxious and elated all at once.

每次爆炸发生时，一些人会从窗户里欢呼庆祝。

With every explosion, some shout with joy from their windows.

我们此次全部报道都聚焦于美国、以色列与伊朗的战争。

We're devoting all of this addition to The US Israel War with Iran.

如今已是第三天，冲突不断升级，影响了该地区众多国家。

Day three now, and the conflict has been broadening, affecting a whole list of countries in the region.

在伊朗境内，空中袭击仍在继续。

And inside Iran, the aerial assaults are continuing.

不久前，美国国防部长佩特·海格塞斯和参谋长联席会议主席丹·凯恩将军在五角大楼举行了新闻发布会。

A short while ago, The US Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Kane, gave a news conference at the Pentagon.

海格塞斯先生表示，美国正在执行他所描述的一次毁灭性任务。

Mister Hegseth says The US is carrying out what he described as a devastating mission.

这可不是伊拉克。

This is not Iraq.

这也不是没完没了的战争。

This is not endless.

我亲身经历过那两场战争。

I was there for both.

我们这一代人更清楚，总统也明白。

Our generation knows better and so does this president.

他称过去二十年的国家建设式战争是愚蠢的。

He called the last twenty years of nation building wars dumb.

他说得对。

And he's right.

这恰恰相反。

This is the opposite.

这次行动是一次明确、毁灭性且果断的任务。

This operation is a clear devastating decisive mission.

摧毁导弹威胁，摧毁海军，不使用核武器。

Destroy the missile threat, destroy the Navy, no nukes.

以色列也有明确的任务，我们对此心怀感激。

Israel has clear missions as well for which we are grateful.

与许多传统盟友不同，他们总是手足无措、大惊小怪，对使用武力犹豫不决。

Unlike so many of our traditional allies who wring their hands and clutch their pearls, hemming and hawing about the use of force.

美国，无论所谓国际机构如何说，正在以我们自己的方式、最大限度的授权，发动历史上最致命、最精准的空中打击行动。

America, regardless of what so called international institutions say, is unleashing the most lethal and precise air power campaign in history, all on our terms with maximum authorities.

没有愚蠢的交战规则。

No stupid rules of engagement.

没有国家建设的泥潭。

No nation building quagmire.

没有民主建设的演练。

No democracy building exercise.

没有政治正确的战争。

No politically correct wars.

我们的北美记者是海伦娜·汉弗莱。

Well, our North America correspondent is Helena Humphrey.

她对我们提供了关于皮特·赫格塞斯和丹·凯恩将军所言的评估。

She gave us this assessment of what Pete Hegseth and general Dan Cain had to say.

这次新闻简报是一个非常关键的时刻，因为这是我们四十多小时以来首次听到特朗普政府在直播场合发声，记者们得以提问，包括关于这场军事行动的战略。

This press briefing was a really key moment because this was the first time that we're hearing from the Trump administration in a live setting in over forty eight hours, that chance for reporters to ask questions, including about the military strategy in all of this.

我认为国防部长皮特·赫格塞斯的语气体现了特朗普政府的坚定决心。

I think the tone from the defense secretary Pete Hegseth was one of absolute resolve, determination from the Trump administration.

他明确表示，我们正在毫不道歉地打击伊朗。

He had said that we are hitting Iran unapologetically.

正如你所说，我们还听到了凯恩将军表示，他们并肩站立，称已经打击了1000个目标。

We also heard from general Kane, as you were saying, there standing shoulder to shoulder saying that we have hit 1,000 targets.

他还表示，在此过程中，美军已成功在伊朗上空取得制空权。

And he said that in doing so, US forces have been able to achieve air superiority over Iran.

我之前提到过，自这些空袭启动以来，周末以来记者们提出的一些问题，包括这场冲突的规模和范围。

Now I was mentioning some of those questions that reporters have had over the weekend since these strikes were launched, including the length and breadth of this conflict.

特朗普总统曾致电媒体人士，暗示这场冲突可能需要四到五周时间。

President Trump had been, calling members of the media, and he had been sort of saying this could take four to five weeks.

随后，我们听到了国防部长海格塞斯表示，关于时间表，实际可能提前或延后。

We did then hear the, defense secretary, Hegsef, saying that actually when it comes to the timeline, it could move up, it could move down.

这取决于特朗普总统。

It's up to president Trump.

他表示自己拥有全部自主权。

He has said that he has all of the latitude.

他还对那些大声质问‘这会是一场无休止的战争吗？’的媒体说道。

And he said to the media who are screaming, could this be an endless war?

他说这不是伊拉克，而且政府表示他们正在完成这项任务。

He said this is not Iraq and that the administration says that they are finishing the job.

关于时间表，没有任何明确信息。

No real clarity on timelines.

我们对这场战争的目标以及美国希望实现什么有了更清晰的认识吗？

Are we any clearer on what the goal of this war is and what The US wants to achieve?

嗯，我认为你提出这个问题是正确的，因为上周末，我们再次听到了一些前后不一的目标表述。

Well, I think you're right to ask that question because over the weekend, again, we've had kind of oscillating aims stated.

我们再次听到了国防部长佩特·海格塞斯的说法，他说：‘这不是一场政权更迭战争。’

We heard from Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, once again on that point saying, quote, this is not a regime change war.

他反而表示，这还涉及通过地区代理势力消除导弹威胁。

He had said instead that, you know, this is also about disabling missiles, a threat through, proxies across the region.

他重复了上周末总统特朗普呼吁伊朗人民起义的那番话。

And he was repeating that line that we'd heard from president Trump over the weekend calling on the Iranian people to rise up.

当然，许多军事分析人士指出，仅靠空中支援和空袭，很难实现政权更迭。

Now, you know, of course, many men military analysts will point out that it is difficult to see regime change when you just have aerial support with an air campaign.

关于这场冲突的正当性，佩特·赫格塞斯表示，他们试图通过欺骗手段获得核武器。

In terms of a justification for this conflict, Pete Hegseth said, that they are trying to they had tried to lie their way to a nuclear bomb.

而政府方面的论点基本上是，伊朗在‘午夜锤行动’和六月的空袭之后，并未在核协议谈判中秉持诚意。

And, essentially, the argument from administration is that Iran was not negotiating in good faith on a nuclear deal following operation Midnight Hammer and those strikes in June.

海伦娜·汉弗莱采访雷吉娜·韦达亚坦。

Helena Humphrey speaking to Regina Vaidyanathan.

现在来看黎巴嫩，它正被卷入伊朗冲突之中。

To Lebanon now, which is being pulled into the Iran conflict.

昨晚，总部位于黎巴嫩的伊朗支持武装组织真主党向以色列的海法市发射了导弹。

Overnight, the Iran backed militant group Hezbollah, which is based in Lebanon, fired missiles into Israel towards the Israeli city of Haifa.

该组织表示，此举是为了报复伊朗最高领袖的遇害。

The group said this was to avenge the killing of Iran's supreme leader.

以色列随即回应，对全国范围内的真主党目标发动了空袭。

And Israel responded, launching strikes on Hezbollah targets across the country.

自清晨以来，贝鲁特首都不断传来爆炸声，成千上万的人逃离了家园。

Since the early hours of the morning, explosions have been rocking the capital Beirut, and thousands of people have fled their homes.

以色列国防军发布声明称，真主党情报总部负责人侯赛因·马克拉德在周日的空袭中被击毙。

The Israel Defense Forces released a statement saying that Hussein Maklid, the head of Hezbollah's intelligence headquarters, was killed in Sunday's strike.

纳达夫·肖沙尼是以色列国防军的发言人。

Nadav Shoshani is a spokesman from the Israel Defense Forces.

夜间，以色列国防军对黎巴嫩境内多个真主党目标进行了报复性打击，包括指挥控制中心、发射阵地和高级恐怖分子。

Overnight, the IDF carried out retaliatory strikes against several Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, including command and control centers, launch sites, and senior terrorists.

我们早有准备。

We were ready for this.

作为对伊朗行动准备的一部分，以色列国防军提前应对了真主党的袭击，从而能够迅速作出回应。

As part of the preparations for our operation in Iran, the IDF prepared for an attack from Hezbollah, allowing us to carry out a swift response.

真主党正步入一场战斗。

Hezbollah is entering a fight.

它无法获胜。

It cannot win.

黎巴嫩卫生部报告称，至少已有31人丧生。

Lebanon's health ministry reported that at least 31 people have been killed.

该国总理宣布，政府已禁止真主党的武装活动，这是对真主党权威最明确的挑战之一。

The country's prime minister has announced that the government banned Hezbollah's armed activities, marking one of the clearest challenges to the group's authority.

我们的记者莉娜·辛贾布从贝鲁特发来关于以色列空袭的最新报道。

Our correspondent Lina Sinjab gave us this update from Beirut about the Israeli strikes.

就在真主党发动袭击报复伊朗最高领袖哈梅内伊遇害之后，以色列立即展开了空袭。

It was immediately after Hezbollah launched an attack into Israel in retaliation, they say, for the killing of the supreme leader of Iran, Ayatollah Khamenei.

以色列在贝鲁特南部郊区、黎巴嫩南部以及贝卡谷地发动了空袭。

Israel launched its strikes, you know, here in the southern suburb of Beirut, in the South South Of Lebanon, and in the Beqa Valley.

就在大约一小时前，巴勒贝克和黎巴嫩南部以及这里的郊区又发生了新的空袭。

And just to, like, an hour ago or so, there were more strikes in Baalbek and also in the South Of Lebanon and here also in the suburb.

当我跟你说话的时候，你可能还能听到背景中以色列无人机飞回的声音，它们正在黎巴嫩和贝鲁特上空进行侦察。

And as you I'm talking to you, probably you can hear in the background the sound of the drones that is coming back as well by Israeli drones, you know, surveying, over, the sky of Lebanon and over Beirut.

这一切都让人想起十八个月前持续了三个月的那场战争，当时以色列暗杀了真主党的高层领导，重创了其力量，并摧毁了他们许多据点。

And this is all of a reminder of, you know, a three months long war that took place eighteen months ago where Israel, you know, assassinated the top leadership of Hezbollah, crippled its power, and, you know, left many of their strongholds in destruction.

我们今天所看到的，不过是那场战争的重演。

And what we're seeing today is just a deja vu of a war that happened.

家庭再次逃离。

Families are fleeing again.

你知道，贝鲁特的街道上挤满了试图寻找避难所的家庭的汽车。

You know, the streets of Beirut are filled with cars for families trying to find shelter.

没有人想再次经历这场战争。

No one wanted to live this, war again.

他们曾警告真主党不要卷入，但真主党做出了这个决定，许多黎巴嫩人认为，真主党更像是伊朗的代理人，而非维护国家利益。

They have warned Hezbollah not to get involved, but they took the decision, and many Lebanese, they feel that Hezbollah is acting as a a proxy to Iran rather than defending national interest.

这正是今天政府刚刚宣布禁止真主党任何活动、任何军事行动的原因，要求真主党仅保留其政治角色，并指示军队全面接管真主党的军事权力，将其完全交由正规军掌控。

That's what led the government today to announce just a short while ago that they are banning any Hezbollah activity, any military activity by Hezbollah, and that Hezbollah should be restricted to its political role and that the army is instructed now to implement all the details of handing over military power of Hezbollah to be solely in the hands of the official army.

莉娜·辛贾布。

Lina Sinjab.

在过去一小时里，美国驻贝鲁特大使馆呼吁其公民不要前往黎巴嫩，并敦促已在该国的公民趁商业航班尚可使用时立即撤离。

In the last hour, the US embassy in Beirut has called on its citizens to not travel to Lebanon and has also urged those already in the country to depart now while commercial flight options remain available.

黎巴嫩许多人认为，由德黑兰资助的真主党将伊朗的利益置于黎巴嫩人民自身利益之上。

Many in Lebanon feel that Hezbollah, funded by Tehran, has prioritized Iranian interests over those of Lebanon's own people.

让我们更多地谈谈对那里发生之事的政治反应。

So let's talk more about the political reaction to what's going on there.

加桑·哈兹巴尼是黎巴嫩前副总理，也是黎巴嫩力量党的现任议员，该党是议会中最大的政治团体。

Ghassan Hazbani is Lebanon's former deputy prime minister and is a sitting MP for the Lebanese Forces Party, the largest political grouping in parliament.

这正是我们长期以来一直警告的情况：真主党脱离了黎巴嫩政府的控制，将黎巴嫩卷入了一场与黎巴嫩本身毫无关系的地区冲突，并且日复一日地证明他们直接隶属于并受伊朗现政权操控。

It's exactly what we've been warning against for a long time that Hezbollah is acting outside the control of the Lebanese government, basically bringing Lebanon into a regional conflict that has nothing to do with Lebanon specifically and still proving day after day that they are directly linked and controlled by the Iranian current regime.

最大的担忧是，黎巴嫩大多数民众反对真主党的行为，而黎巴嫩政府已明确决定遏制真主党的活动，并拆除其在黎巴嫩境内的军事基础设施。

The biggest concern is that Lebanon and its majority rejects the acts of Hezbollah, and the government of Lebanon has taken a clear decision to curb the activities of Hezbollah and dismantle the military infrastructure of Hezbollah in Lebanon.

这一过程一直进展缓慢，但最终导致了我们今天所处的局面。

This has been a slow process, which has actually led to where we are today.

我们希望黎巴嫩仍能避免卷入这场地区冲突，希望政府能加快行动，掌控武器、独揽战争与和平的决策权，并统一管理全国的武装力量。

We do hope that Lebanon can still avoid being part of this regional conflict and that the government can expedite its activities in terms of controlling weapons and having exclusivity over war and peace decisions and holding and carrying, arms across the country.

然而，这场冲突无疑正在扩大，没人知道它会持续多久。

Yet this conflict is, expanding, no doubt, and nobody knows how long it will be for.

但毫无疑问，黎巴嫩不应成为其中一部分，也无力再承受进一步的冲突和破坏。

But definitely, Lebanon should not be part of it and is not capable of handling further conflicts and further devastation.

我们有民众离开家园。

We have people leaving their homes.

我们有人丧生，今天还有大量人员受伤，而经济本就十分脆弱，我们正努力应对这场经济危机。

We have people dying, lots of people injured today, and the economy is already very fragile with an economic crisis that we're trying to address.

因此，黎巴嫩无力再承受任何进一步的冲突。

So Lebanon is not in a position to withstand any further conflicts.

来自黎巴嫩力量党的加桑·哈兹巴尼。

Ghassan Hazbani from the Lebanese forces party.

现在让我们关注伊朗境内发生的情况。

And now let's focus on what's happening inside Iran.

那里的民众已经经历了第三天的空袭。

People there are experiencing their third day of aerial attacks.

伊朗红新月会表示，自周六以来已有超过550人丧生。

The Iranian Red Crescent says more than 550 people have been killed since Saturday.

尽管尚未公布遇难者身份，但目前尚不清楚他们是平民伤亡还是安全部队成员。

Though it hasn't disclosed who the victims are, it's not clear whether they're civilian casualties or members of the security forces.

在正常情况下，要从伊朗获取信息就已经很困难了。

It's difficult to gather information from Iran at the best of times.

该政权严格限制允许进入报道的人员。

The regime strictly limits who's allowed in to report.

而现在间歇性的互联网中断使得联系普通民众变得更加困难。

And now intermittent Internet blackouts there make it even harder to reach ordinary people.

但我们的BBC波斯语服务收到了一些来自德黑兰当地人士的消息。

But our BBC Persian service has received some messages from those on the ground in Tehran.

以下是我们的制作人录制的一些内容。

Here are some voiced by our producers.

人们同时感到焦虑和兴奋。

People feel anxious and elated all at once.

每次爆炸发生时，一些人从窗户里欢呼庆祝。

With every explosion, some shot with joy from their windows.

周六晚上也是同样的情况。

It was the same on Saturday night.

街上有很多人跳舞庆祝。

So many people were out on the streets dancing and celebrating.

庆祝活动在他们听到空袭的那一刻就开始了。

The celebrations began the very moment they heard the strikes.

人们非常高兴。

People were incredibly happy.

我认为哈梅内伊死亡的官方电视公告是刻意安排的。

I think the timing of the announcement of Khamenei's death on state television was deliberate.

他们很可能想阻止人们涌上街头抗议。

They likely wanted to prevent people from pouring into the streets to protest.

他们在清晨礼拜召唤前宣布了这一消息。

They announced it just before the call to prayer in the early hours of the morning.

当我与街上的民众交谈时，他们说他们很好。

When I speak to people in the streets, they say they're fine.

当然害怕导弹，但不知怎的又感到高兴。

Frightened of the missiles, of course, but happy somehow.

他们最担心的是美国可能会达成协议，而当局再次开始镇压人民。

Their main concern is that The US might make a deal and the authorities begin oppressing people all over again.

我个人认为，美国和以色列不会在伊斯兰共和国垮台之前结束这一切。

Personally, I don't think The US and Israel will bring this to an end until the Islamic Republic is gone.

我认为他们期待人们走上街头抗议，而我也准备亲自参与。

I do think they expect people to take to the streets and protest, and I'm prepared to do so myself.

之前，我采访了我们波斯语频道的戈彻·哈比比·阿扎德。

Earlier, I spoke to Ghonche Habibi Azad from our Persian service.

我首先问她这些信息是否准确反映了伊朗国内大多数人的感受。

I began by asking her about those messages and whether they were an accurate depiction of what most people were feeling inside Iran.

目前由于互联网中断，很难确切了解伊朗国内民众的真实想法。

It's very difficult right now with the Internet outage to know exactly how people think inside the country.

但与此同时，我们在伊朗媒体上也看到，一些亲政府的人也在街头为最高领袖阿亚图拉·阿里·哈梅内伊的去世哀悼。

But at the same time, we have seen on Iranian outlets that some people, some pro establishment people are mourning for the death of supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on the streets as well.

对他们来说，气氛非常沉重。

The mood is very grim for them.

与此同时，官员们表示，最高领袖的道路将继续，但我们也听到了那些反对政权的人的声音，他们非常担忧。

At the same time, the officials have said that the path of the supreme leader will continue but at the same time, the voices that we just heard are from people who are opposed to the establishment and they're very worried.

目前，我从德黑兰首都以及附近的城市卡拉奇那里听说，人们听到了强烈的轰炸声，首都的物价已经上涨，并且他们收到了伊斯兰革命卫队（IRGC，即伊斯兰革命卫队）发来的短信，警告他们不要上街抗议。

At the moment, I'm hearing from people in Tehran, the capital and in sitting nearby Karachi that they have heard some heavy strikes and they have said that the prices have increased in the capital and they have been sent a text by the IRGC, is Islamic Revolutionary God Course, warning them not to go out to the streets and protest.

我看到了那条短信，人们对互联网中断感到非常愤怒。

I have seen that text And people are really angry about the internet outage.

要了解正在发生的事情非常非常困难。

It's very very difficult to have a sense of what's going on.

据他们告诉我，街道上非常安静。

Streets are quiet from what they have told me.

面包店和加油站很繁忙，有些人已经逃离了首都。

Bakeries and petrol stations are busy and some have fled the capital.

所以你显然正在获取一些零散的信息。

So but you're obviously getting some bits and pieces of information.

所以我想知道，你能否将当前情况与一月份抗议活动及镇压期间大规模通信中断时的情况进行对比？

So I wonder if you can contrast that with the time when there was a massive communications blackout during the time of the protests and the crackdown against those protests in January.

我的意思是，我们能收到更多消息和信息，这正常吗？

I mean, is it unusual that we're getting some more information, some more messages out?

他们传递信息的方式之一是通过卫星互联网Starlink，这在最近的抗议活动中也被用来向外传递信息，而那次抗议导致了数千人死亡。

Well, the methods that they have been sending information is one via the satellite Internet Starlink, and that has also been a method that people have sent out information during the recent protest, which which led to thousands getting killed as well.

目前还不清楚国内究竟发生了什么。

And it's it's not known what's going on inside the country.

我们无法掌握完整的情况。

We can't have the full picture.

BBC的巴黎记者不允许在伊朗境内报道，但我们必须观察接下来会发生什么，以及如何监控这一局势。

BBC Parisian journalists are not allowed to report from inside Iran, but we have to see what's gonna happen and how we can monitor the situation with this issue.

BBC波斯语频道的贡塞·哈比比·伊扎特。

BBC Persian's Ghonse Habibi Ezzat.

本播客后续还将报道：伊朗袭击多个海湾国家。

Still to come in this podcast, Iran attacks several Gulf states.

我们将探讨这一战略的连锁影响。

We'll explore the ripple effects of that strategy.

我们还将听到以色列总统艾萨克·赫尔佐格的说法，他认为中东的未来取决于伊朗在战争中失败。

And we'll hear from Isaac Herzog, Israel's president, who says the future of the Middle East hinges on Iran losing the war.

这并不是我们曾经被承诺的未来。

This is not the future we were promised.

这作为节目的标语怎么样？

Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

来自BBC，这是《接口》节目，探讨科技如何重塑你的每周生活和整个世界。

From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

这与季度收益或科技评测无关。

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

这关乎科技实际上如何影响你的工作、政治和日常生活。

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

以及人们使用互联网的各种怪异方式。

And all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.

在bbc.com或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是全球新闻播客。

This is the Global News Podcast.

我们一直在讨论这场冲突如何扩大。

We've been talking about how this conflict is expanding.

伊朗再次袭击了多个海湾国家。

Iran has again attacked several Gulf states.

包括阿布扎比、迪拜和科威特城在内的地区首都都听到了爆炸声。

Explosions have been heard in capital cities across the region, including Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and Kuwait City.

记者芭芭拉·普拉特·厄舍从多哈为我们发来了报道。

A correspondent Barbara Platt Usher spoke to us from Doha.

在这里，卡塔尔非常安静，因为人们大多待在室内。

Here in Qatar, it's very quiet, because people are mostly staying indoors.

他们通过手机收到警报，被要求或建议这样做，以避免伊朗来袭的火力威胁。

They have been told, in, in in alerts on their mobile telephones to do that or advised to do that because of the danger of incoming fire from the Iranians.

我们经常听到空中爆炸声，因为卡塔尔方面正在拦截导弹和无人机，但也有碎片坠落造成了一些破坏和人员受伤。

We do hear regularly explosions in the air as the Qataris intercept missiles and drones, and but there's been some damage and several injuries as a result of falling debris.

所以街道上基本空无一人，不是完全没人，但大部分是空的。

So the streets are largely empty, not completely, but largely.

我们昨天在开斋时去了市场，开斋是穆斯林结束斋戒的时间，通常市场会非常热闹，但那天却异常冷清。

We went to a market yesterday during, Iftar, which is when the Muslims break the fast of Ramadan, and usually the market would be buzzing, and it was really dead.

店铺是开着的，但几乎没有人。

The the shops were open, but there was almost no one there.

因此，这正在产生重大的经济影响，如果这种情况持续一段时间，肯定会造成更大影响。

So it's having a significant economic impact or certainly will do if it continues for a period of time.

芭芭拉，你能提醒我们一下伊朗最近与海湾邻国的关系如何吗？

Barbara, can you remind us of the recent relationship that Iran has had with its neighbors in The Gulf?

这些袭击让这些国家感到意外吗？

Have the attacks taken these nations by surprise?

管理阿拉伯海湾国家的保守逊尼派君主制与伊朗——一个由革命性什叶派运动主导的国家——一直存在紧张关系。

Conservative Sunni monarchies that run the Arab Gulf States have had a history of tensions with Iran, which is a revolutionary Shia movement run by a revolutionary Shia movement.

但许多国家已经找到了务实的方式来应对这种关系。

But many of the states have found pragmatic ways to deal with that.

近年来，沙特尤其采取了措施试图改善关系，尤其是在十月战争爆发后，他们逐渐与以色列保持距离。

And in recent years, the Saudis had especially had taken steps to try to improve relations, think especially after the October war started and they were pulling back from Israel.

我认为他们可能对伊朗的攻击如此激烈感到有些意外，因为伊朗不仅针对散布在海湾地区的美国军事基地，还袭击了民用基础设施。

I think they were probably a little taken aback by just how aggressive it's been because the Iranians have been targeted not just The US military bases that are scattered across The Gulf, but they've also hit civilian infrastructure.

他们使用能够突破防空系统的无人机，这些无人机已瞄准机场，这对海湾地区来说是个大问题，因为这里是重要的交通枢纽。

They're using drones that can get through air defense systems, and these drones have been targeting airports, which is a a big problem for The Gulf because it's a it's a hub for travel.

海湾合作委员会于周日召开会议，称伊朗的袭击是背信弃义的，并表示海湾国家保留采取行动的权利。

The Gulf Cooperation Council on Sunday met and called the Iranian attacks treacherous and said that the Gulf countries reserve the right.

如果他们认为有必要进行自卫，就会采取回应措施。

They would take action or or respond if they felt they needed to in self defense.

我的意思是，他们是否会采取行动，我认为很大程度上取决于这场冲突持续多久以及升级到什么程度。

I mean, whether they will or not, I think, depends a lot on how long this goes on and how much it continues to escalate.

那么，您认为伊朗为何要针对这些海湾国家？

So what's Iran's thinking, do you think, in targeting these Gulf States?

这难道不是一种高风险的策略吗？会制造新的军事敌人。

Isn't that a risky strategy creating new military enemies?

分析人士认为，伊朗的战略是试图对美国施加最大压力，迫使其撤回军事打击，而这一策略的一部分是通过扰乱服务和经济等方式在海湾地区制造巨大痛苦，因为海湾国家以稳定著称，其经济命脉依赖于石油出口等产业。

According to analysts, they believe the strategy is that Iran is trying to create as much pressure as possible on The United States to pull back from the military strikes, and part of that would be creating a lot of pain in The Gulf through disruption of services and the economy and and so on, because The Gulf prides itself with its stability and is needed for the for its economic, ventures through oil exports and and the like.

我认为，如果海湾国家感到被逼到墙角、必须做出回应，这将非常困难。

I think that it's difficult for the Gulf States if they feel that they have got their back against the wall and they need to respond in some way.

例如，如果感到被逼迫，他们可能会允许美国利用其基地对伊朗发动攻击。

They may, for example, they feel pushed, allow the Americans to use their bases for attacks on Iran.

在此次战争爆发前，他们曾公开表示，不会允许美国从其国家的基地攻击伊朗。

They did very publicly before this war started, say that they would refuse to let the Americans attack Iran from the bases in their countries.

所以，他们可能会改变这一立场。

So maybe they would change that.

我知道，特别是有人会谨慎对待攻击伊朗，因为他们不想被看作是参与以色列对其邻国的行动，尤其是在十月战争爆发以来。

I know that, I think someone in particular would be careful about attacking Iran since they have they don't want to be identified with an Israeli venture against their neighbor, especially since, the beginning of the October war.

所以，这很困难。

So it's it's difficult.

这其中涉及许多复杂因素。

There are a lot of complexities involved.

而且，你知道，海湾国家的本能是降低紧张局势，因为稳定对他们来说很重要。

And, you know, the instinct of the Gulf States is to deescalate because stability is important to them.

但同样地，如果伊朗继续升级，他们可能会决定需要其他选择。

But, again, if the Iranians continue to escalate, they might decide they they need other options.

芭芭拉·普拉特·厄舍。

Barbara Platt Usher.

毋庸置疑，现在是一个危险的时刻。

Well, it goes without saying that this is a dangerous moment in time.

以色列总统艾萨克·赫尔佐格告诉BBC，中东的未来取决于伊朗在这场战争中失败。

The Israeli president Isaac Herzog has told the BBC the future of the Middle East hinges on Iran losing the war.

他刚刚接受了安娜·福斯特的采访。

He's been speaking with Anna Foster.

我们正处在一个历史性的转折点，中东的未来取决于这次行动、这场战争的成功，因为呈现在我们眼前的是两个长期以来一直存在、为所有关注中东的人所熟知的联盟。

We are in a historic juncture where the future of the Middle East depends on the success of this operation, this war, because what emerges in front of our eyes are two coalitions that have been there and known to all of us, those who deal with the Middle East, for the last twenty years.

但现在它们已经浮出水面。

But now they've come above board.

一方是来自德黑兰的邪恶帝国，制造混乱与恐怖；另一方则是希望在中东向前迈进的国家联盟，当然得到了美国、以色列及其海湾邻国的支持，共同迈向该地区不同的未来。

One is the Empire of Evil from Tehran, spreading havoc, terror, And on the other hand, a coalition of nations who wants to move forward in the Middle East, of course, supported by The United States Of America, Israel and its neighbors in The Gulf, moving forward towards a different future in the regions.

问题是，第一个问题是否成立。

And the question is, one no.

因此，这取决于两件事。

It depends on, therefore, two things.

能否削弱伊朗发展核武器和弹道导弹的能力，从而阻止其制造混乱与恐怖。

Can one undermine the capability of Iran to develop nuclear arms and ballistic missiles and pro will create bring forward havoc and terror.

另一个问题是，政权是否会更迭。

And the other issue, of course, whether the regime will be changed.

一年前，我们被告知伊朗的核计划已在十二天的战争中被彻底摧毁。

We were told a year ago that Iran's nuclear project had been sent to oblivion during the twelve day war.

这是以色列对伊朗发动的第二次先发制人战争。

This is the second preemptive war that Israel has launched on Iran.

核计划是否

Was the nuclear program

时间。

time.

你知道吗？

You know?

为什么我们被告知

Why why were we told

更糟了？

it worse?

与美利坚合众国联手，因为信息很明确，而且他们还有其他方面。

In conjunction with The United States Of America because the information was clear, and they had other sides.

我们对此心知肚明，并且也与许多合作伙伴共享这一信息。

And we know that and we share this information also with many of our partners.

如果你试图在中东实现和平，当时正在进行谈判，就像去年十二天战争爆发时一样。

If you're trying to achieve peace in The Middle East, there were negotiations going on, the same as there were last year when the twelve day war started.

当时正在进行谈判。

There were negotiations happening.

几天前在日内瓦举行了一次会议。

There was a meeting in Geneva just days ago.

伊朗外长阿巴斯·拉吉吉表示，双方离开日内瓦时达成共识，认为下次会面时就能达成协议。

Abbas Raghji, the Iranian foreign minister, said that both sides left Geneva with an understanding that we would seal a deal the next time we meet.

他提到特朗普先生最终下令轰炸了谈判桌。

He talked about mister Trump ultimately ordering bombing of the negotiating table.

为什么要发动战争？这完全不可能发生？

Why start a war It's an absolute were happening?

好的。

Okay.

这是彻头彻尾的谎言。

It's an absolute lie.

我亲自与在场的人交谈过。

I spoke myself to people who were in the room.

他们告诉我的，我只举一个例子。

And what they said give you just one example.

伊朗人说：‘当然，我们愿意限制我们的浓缩计划，不会朝核武器方向发展，但我们要求的条件远超几年前达成的协议，浓缩度远高于20%，这对任何了解核浓缩的人来说都是荒谬可笑的。’

The Iranians said, oh, we are willing, of course, to put a lid on our enrichment program, and we won't move towards the bomb, but we need all sorts of requirements would have brought them to five times the agreement that was done a few years back, way above 20% enrichment, which is a farce and a joke to every every anyone who understands a nuclear enrichment.

以色列总统艾萨克·赫尔佐格。

Israel's president Isaac Herzog.

在这期播客中，我们一直在讨论这场冲突似乎正在升级。

Throughout this podcast, we've been talking about how this conflict seems to be escalating.

随着美国和以色列持续轰炸伊朗，德黑兰则对海湾地区的多个目标实施报复性打击，而以色列也在真主党袭击以色列后，对黎巴嫩的真主党目标发动了袭击。

As the Americans and the Israelis continue to bombard Iran, Tehran is retaliating with strikes on targets across The Gulf, and Israel has struck Hezbollah targets in Lebanon after Hezbollah attacked Israel.

这是一幅复杂的图景。

It's a complex picture.

我们的首席国际记者莉兹·杜塞特分享了她对中东局势的观察。

Our chief international correspondent, Liz Doucette, shared her reflections on what's happening in The Middle East.

这充满风险。

It is fraught with risk.

每当战争爆发，它就会获得自身的动力并脱离控制，往往变得不可收拾。

Whenever a war is unleashed, it takes on a power and, control of its own, and often it is out of control.

这场战争从最初几分钟就开始升级了。

And this is a war which has escalated from the very first minutes.

周六清晨，德黑兰第一波袭击就一举消灭了最高领袖哈梅内伊、四大安全主管以及众多其他人。

The fact that in the first wave of strikes early in the morning in Tehran on Saturday eliminated the supreme leader Ayatollah al Khamenei, the top four security chiefs all in one swoop as well as many others.

我们目前仍不清楚所有遇难者的名字。

We still don't have all the names.

这一行动向伊朗伊斯兰共和国及其掌权者传递了一个明确的信息。

A message was sent to the Islamic Republic Of Iran and those in charge.

这是关乎存亡的。

This is existential.

我不断回想起今年二月在德黑兰与副外长的那次访谈，当时我问他，你们会如何报复？

And I I keep remembering the interview I did with the deputy foreign minister in Tehran earlier in February, and I said, what will you vowed retaliation.

他说，是的。

He said, yes.

如果这是关乎存亡的，我们将以前所未有的方式回应。

If it's existential, we will respond like never before.

我说：‘你这话是什么意思？’

And I said, well, what do you mean by that?

他说：‘我不想细说。’

And he said, I don't want to go into the details.

而我们现在正看到这一点。

And we're seeing this.

他们正在倾尽全力，试图提高美国、以色列以及整个阿拉伯地区国家的成本——这些国家曾昼夜不停地努力避免战争，如今却突然被卷入其中，正如伊朗此前警告的那样。

They are throwing everything at it, trying to increase the price for The United States, for Israel, and for countries across the Arab region who had been working around the clock to try to avert a war and now suddenly found find themselves drawn into it as Iran had warned.

当我们谈论伊朗时，我们往往觉得伊朗在这场冲突中是孤立的，只有一些代理力量支持。

When we talk about Iran, we talk about Iran sort of being alone in this conflict in some ways, you know, with with some proxies.

但它在外交上并不是孤立的，对吧？

But it's not alone diplomatically, is it?

就在过去几个小时，中国已表态支持伊朗。

We have had China come out just in the past few hours with support of words for Iran.

它还与俄罗斯有着密切的关系。

It also has close ties with Russia.

我的意思是，这些与大国的关系在当前对德黑兰来说有多重要？

I mean, how much do these ties with major powers matter at this moment for Tehran?

中国和俄罗斯都置身事外。

China and Russia are on the sidelines.

俄罗斯担心自己在乌克兰的战争。

Russia is worried about its own war in Ukraine.

它担心自己在战争中高度依赖伊朗生产的无人机。

It's worried about the production of drones that it is dependent on Iran so much to fight its own war.

你知道，中国不想卷入别人的战争。

China, as you know, doesn't want to get involved in other people's wars.

在委内瑞拉发生的事情之后，它也担心从伊朗获得的石油。

It's also worried about its oil that it gets from Iran after what happened in Venezuela.

这场不断升级的冲突牵涉到许多利益，每个人都在考虑自己的利益。

There are a lot of interests in this escalating conflict, and everyone is thinking of theirs.

局势非常不可预测。

It is very unpredictable.

这非常危险。

It's very perilous.

我们不知道它会如何收场。

We don't know how it's going to end.

更令人担忧的是，我们真的不知道特朗普总统希望它如何结束。

And what is even more worrying, we really don't know how president Trump wants it to end.

我们的首席国际记者，莉兹·杜塞特。

Our chief international correspondent, Liz Doucette.

以上就是我们目前的全部内容。

And that's all from us for now.

如果您想与我们联系，可以发送邮件至 globalpodcast@bbc.co.uk。

If you want to get in touch, you can email us at globalpodcast@bbc.co.uk.

您也可以在 X 平台关注我们：BBC World Service。

You can also find us on X at BBC World Service.

请使用标签 #global news pod。

Use the hashtag global news pod.

别忘了我们的姊妹播客《全球故事》，它将深入挖掘并超越头条新闻，聚焦一个重大事件。

And don't forget our sister podcast, the Global Story, which goes in-depth and beyond the headlines on one big story.

本期《全球新闻播客》由尼克·兰德尔剪辑。

This edition of the Global News Podcast was mixed by Nick Randall.

编辑是凯伦·马丁。

The editor is Karen Martin.

我是西莉亚·哈顿。

I'm Celia Hatton.

我们下期再见。

Until next time.

再见。

Goodbye.

这并不是我们曾经被承诺的未来。

This is not the future we were promised.

比如，这作为节目的标语怎么样？

Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

来自BBC，这里是《Interface》节目，探讨科技如何重塑你的每周生活和整个世界。

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

这并不是关于季度收益或科技评测。

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

而是关于科技究竟如何影响你的工作、政治和日常生活。

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

以及人们使用互联网的各种奇特方式。

And all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.

在bbc.com或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.