EP002 - Tennis Australia's Physical Performance Coach, Andrew Furner, Unpacks The Key Factors Holding Athletes Back And The Process Of Building Fast Twitch

实际上，这关乎韧性，我们是否在培养运动员的身心韧性，使他们能够达到那个水平并参与竞争？

Effectively it's resilience, are we developing physical and mental resilience in our athletes to get to that point and be able to compete?

如果我们没有做到，那我们就遗漏了某些东西。

And if we're not, then we're missing something.

如果我们做到了，那我们就做对了某些事。

If we are, we're doing something right.

但说实话，我认为这也与环境有关。

But I think that has something to do, to be honest with the environment as well.

比如，在网球界，欧洲经常讨论他们在欧洲所做的事情。

Like if there's a lot of talk in tennis around Europe, what they're doing in Europe.

我想，虽然我没有亲身体验过，但我的印象是，那几乎是一种弱肉强食的环境。

And I guess like, not that I've experienced, but my impression is it's like almost dog eat dog.

竞争如此激烈，每个人都愿意将自己推向极致，因为如果你不这么做，几乎就没有机会了。

Like it's so cutthroat and everyone's just willing to drive like the absolute extreme because if you're not, you've almost got no chance.

欢迎来到《职业之路》播客的另一期节目。

Welcome to another episode of Going Pro Podcast.

今天我们要邀请一位特别嘉宾，安德鲁·弗纳，他今天和我们在一起。

And today we have a special guest, Andrew Furner who is with us today.

他目前是澳大利亚网球协会的体能教练。

He is the physical performance coach in Tennis with Tennis Australia currently.

他在这一领域拥有长达十五年的丰富而广泛的经验。

He has a diverse and broad background over fifteen years in this area.

他从小在健身行业长大，你的父母和你一起经营过健身房，还开发过健身器材，这些我们待会儿会详细聊聊。

He's grew up in fitness industry, your mom, your dad, you've owned gyms together, you've been, you've like developed fitness equipment, which we're going to dive into.

所以可以说，这早已融入你的血脉之中。

So you could say that it's just been in your blood really.

后来你创立了Fast Twitch，我非常期待聊这个话题，因为对你在阿德莱德来说，这是一次巨大的突破，带来了完全新颖的理念，将力量与体能训练提升到了前所未有的新高度，我们之前从未见过。

This has moved into starting fast twitch, which I'm super keen to talk about because growing up that was a massive revelation for Adelaide in terms of just like innovation, bringing a completely new concept and just taking strength and conditioning and performance to a new level here, which we hadn't seen.

所以我非常期待听听这方面的分享。

So super keen to talk about that.

你获得了体育管理硕士学位和创业学MBA。

You've completed a Master's in Sports Management and MBA in Entrepreneurship.

你对自己和他人的高绩效充满热情，能够融合多个学科，从不同角度看待问题。

You have a passion for pursuing high performance for yourself and others, you tap into multiple disciplines so that you can look at situations from a number of different perspectives.

我认为这正是优秀教练的标志——能够从多个角度看待问题，并根据面前的人选择最合适的方法。

And I think that's just a sign of a good coach, someone that can look at things from a number of different perspectives and then utilize the right approach depending on who's in front of you.

欢迎安德鲁，感谢你来到这里，我们非常感激。

So welcome Andrew, thanks for being here with us, we really appreciate it.

谢谢，老兄。

Thank you, mate.

很高兴能来这里。

Good to be here.

当然。

Absolutely.

我迫不及待想聊聊Fast Twitch的经历。

So I'm just itching to get into the Fast Twitch journey.

我想对于很多可能从未听说过Fast Twitch的人来说，你能描绘一下它是如何起步的，以及在最初阶段是如何发展并真正启动的吗？

So I guess for a lot of people who maybe never heard of Fast Twitch, like can you paint a little bit of a picture of how that started and what that was like in the initial phases building up and then actually just getting it started?

那当时是什么样子？这一切是怎么发展起来的？

How did that look and how that all eventuate?

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

所以我们从2009年开始，但我想，就像任何创业旅程一样，实际上在真正实现之前就已经酝酿了多年。

So we began in 2009, but I guess like any business journey, actually start years before it actually comes to fruition.

这与我父母涉足健身行业有关，从小我就目睹了他们所做的一切。

So it does crossover into having my parents into or involved in the fitness industry and being involved in that and seeing what they did when I was young.

然后，当你到了二十岁、二十多岁的时候，你会想：嗯，也许我可以尝试一下自己还算擅长的事情。

Then, obviously, you turn 20 and you in your mid twenties, and you're like, well, you know, I guess I can have a crack at something I'm reasonably good at.

于是，你把自己推到台前，勇敢地去尝试。

And, you know, you so as you put yourself out there on the line and you have a go.

而且，这确实是一段极其精彩的旅程。

And, yeah, it was definitely one hell of a ride.

这么说没错，这是一段美好的经历，一路上收获了很多宝贵的经验。

Can say that, but a good one and a lot of good experiences along the way.

当然。

For sure.

所以你父亲参与了这种健身器材的开发，这项专利属于他。

So your dad was part of building this fitness equipment that was patent from him.

在当时，这是一种全新的设备。

It was new equipment for the time.

你能稍微解释一下，基于你们当时拥有的这种设备，FastSwitch有什么独特之处吗？

Can you explain a little bit about what made FastSwitch different based on this equipment that you had there?

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

这种设备经过长时间的演变和创新。

So the equipment had evolved and was innovated over a long period of time.

到了某个阶段，我们觉得拥有了一个非常棒的产品，它具有创新性，运动员使用它会受益。

It got to the point where we felt like we had this really cool product and it was innovative and athletes could benefit from using it.

但我们要怎么把它送到运动员手中呢？

But how do we get it in their hands?

这很可能催生了快肌这个概念。

And that's probably what's born the fast twitch concept.

因此，这几乎意味着能够使用这种设备，同时将力量训练引入阿德莱德——你可以去一个专门的设施，如果你在当地的足球俱乐部打球，就可以来体验力量训练究竟是什么。

And so it was almost like the integration of being able to use this equipment, but also then bringing performance training to Adelaide where you could go to a facility and if you played at your local football club, you could come in and experience what performance training is all about.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

但我想当时独特的是，2009年的时候，像这样的东西在阿德莱德根本不存在，虽然我确信其他地方可能有。

But I guess what was unique in at that time, we're going back to 2009 is nothing really like that existed, particularly in Adelaide, I'm sure there was other place.

我知道在美国有一些类似的地方，但在当时澳大利亚的阿德莱德，这可能算是非常超前的了。

Well, I know in The US there were places around, but it was probably pretty out there in AustraliaAdelaide at the time.

是的，没错。

Yeah, sure.

那么你能解释一下这种设备到底是什么吗？

So can you explain what this equipment actually was though?

它是一种液压泵。

Like it was a hydraulic pump.

它真的有效吗？

Did it actually work?

然后它会给你反馈。

And then it gave you feedback.

你能再详细解释一下吗？

Can you explain that a little bit more?

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

我想你可以把设备分成不同类别，但这种被称为冰动力训练，对于那些技术专家来说，可能更接近伪冰动力而非纯粹的冰动力。

I guess you can classify equipment into different categories, but this was what's called ice kinetic training and probably more pseudo ice kinetics rather than the pure for those technical wizards out there.

是的，液压技术有效地控制了你的移动速度。

Yeah, the hydraulic technology effectively controls the speed you can move.

如果你试图推得更快，它就会产生更大的阻力。

If you try and push faster, it's going to create more resistance.

因此，这是一种独特的力量训练方式。

So that's a unique way of utilizing resistance training.

而且我认为，对于想要在表现上取得优势的年轻人来说，这是一种非常安全的方式。

And I guess for youngsters looking to, I suppose, get an edge in their performance, it's a really safe way of doing it.

是的，这正是

Yeah, that's

我第一个想到的就是保护关节，避免以一种可能对关节造成严重损伤的方式施加负荷。

exactly the first thing that came to my mind is just protection of the joints, not loading the joints in, I guess a really damaging way.

这些设备能让人们在输出大量力量时非常安全，同时感觉不会受伤，并且还能通过计算机系统获得可测量的训练成果。

These machines would have made it really safe to actually output a lot of force and feel like you're gonna be okay while doing that while getting measurable results that you can test on and see through the computer system.

然后你可以追踪，在大约八周或几个月的时间内，看看自己取得了多少进步，这将会非常棒。

And then from there you can actually track over the course of like, I guess maybe like eight week period or like over a couple of months and see how much progress you're making, which would have been awesome.

对于那些前来训练的人来说，这会是绝佳的方式，让他们在不给关节带来太大压力的情况下，看到自己在这段时间内的成长。

Like it would have been great for people coming in to actually see how they were evolving in that time without putting too much pressure on their joints.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, 100%.

而且因为你每完成一次重复动作都能获得反馈。

And because you're getting feedback on every repetition that you're doing.

所以你实际上会做一组10次，比如，在进行过程中你可以看到每一次重复的表现，同时也可以回头查看整组的表现情况。

So you literally will do a set of 10, for example, and you can see each rep as you're going, but then equally look back at the set and see how you perform.

就像你所说的，你可以一组一组、一 session 一 session 地进行，这成为了一个非常棒的训练反馈工具，帮助你识别出力量和爆发力表现中可能存在的弱点。

Like you're saying, you could, or you're doing that set by set and then session by session, it became really good training feedback tool to identify where maybe some weaknesses were in your, I suppose, strength power profile.

这将会非常有洞察力。

That would have been really insightful.

然后你可能会和你所指导的人一起分析这些数据，向他们解释说：‘比如，你的右髋关节这里没有很好地发力，你需要更多地通过脚部发力’，你还可以进一步深入细节。

And then you would have, I guess broken that down with the people that you're working with and explained it to them and saying, okay, maybe your is not your right hip is not working that well here and you need to push through your foot a little bit more and you could have maybe gone into more details.

这种指导方式有咨询性质吗？

Was it consultative like that in any way?

是的，100%。

Yeah, 100%.

在运动表现中，一个关键原则就是特异性。

And I mean, of the key principles in sports performance is specificity.

因此，速度是其中非常重要的一部分，因为随着运动水平的提升，无论什么项目，节奏都会变得更快——除非你从事的是射箭这类运动之类的

So speed is a really large or big component of that because sport, the higher you go in sport, like the faster it becomes, it doesn't really matter what sport it is unless I'm doing archery or something like

就是这样。

that.

长传。

Long balls.

但没错，无论是网球、足球还是其他运动，随着年龄增长，速度都会变得更快。

But yeah, you're doing tennis football, soccer, whatever like, it gets faster as you get older.

因此我们在训练人员时需要牢记这一点，但要达到这个目标，必须先打好基础。

So we need to keep that in mind when we're training people, but the process in getting them there is you need to build foundations.

我想，要高质量地训练速度是很难的。

And I guess like it's hard to train speed with quality.

所以，像你所说的，设备在某种程度上帮助我们实现了这一点，并且还能进行分析。

And so again, the equipment like enabled you to do it to some extent and then profile like you're saying.

因此，你可以分析出一个人的力量曲线，判断他们是需要更多速度，还是需要在训练中增强力量。

So you could profile where someone's power curve was essentially and kind of identify if they needed more speed or if they need a bit more strength in their training.

这非常棒。

And that was pretty cool.

是的，这太棒了。

Yeah, that's sick.

这样你就能更清晰地为每个人制定训练计划。

Then you can actually target a program more clearly for someone.

没错。

That's right.

太厉害了。

That's amazing.

是的，我很认可这一点。

Yeah, I rate that.

我想了解更多关于这个业务的结构。

I'm curious to know more about the structure of the business.

你们有团体课程吗？

Did you have group classes?

健身房里有不同的训练项目吗？

Were there different sort of disciplines that you had in the gym?

只是这些等速机器吗？

Was it just these iso kinetic machines?

Fast Twitch 的结构是怎样的？

What was the structure at Fast Twitch?

是的，

Yeah,

对。

yeah.

那每周的时间安排是什么样的？

And the schedule, what it looked like in a week?

是的，这是个很好的问题，因为当你刚开始时，你对自己想做什么有很清楚的想法，但当你推向市场时，会不断收到反馈。

Yeah, that's a great question because when you first begin, you've got a pretty good idea on what you wanna do, but when you bring it to the market, you're getting feedback all the time.

所以我们最初的位置和最终的位置几乎是两个不同的地方。

So where we began and where we ended were like kind of two different spots.

就为市场提供服务而言，我们最初确实是以 Ask 和 Eddy 的设备为中心的。

As far as providing like a service to your market, we were definitely orientated around the Ask and Eddy equipment to begin with.

我们当时做了很多团体训练。

We did a lot of group training around that.

说实话，我们发现这种训练方式太激烈了，人们体内乳酸堆积，开始感到恶心之类的反应。

And to be honest, what we found, it was such a hardcore way of training that people would get some lactic buildup in their body and start feeling nauseous and this type of thing.

我认为，这在运动界是一个非常重要的概念：什么时候该真正突破极限，以及如何管理运动员的训练负荷，这些都很关键。

I guess, and this is a really important concept in the athletic world is when should you really push those limits and managing someone's load and these types of things quite important.

我想，当年我们经验还比较少，训练时把人逼得挺紧的，虽然效果不错，但后来我们逐渐改进，开始引入更多性能训练中常见的其他训练方式。

I suppose being a bit greener back in those days, we're pushing people pretty hard, which was cool and they were getting good results, but then we sort of like evolved and started introducing a lot of the other training modalities that you do in performance training.

是的，那具体包括哪些内容呢？

Yeah, so what sort of things was that?

有涉及瑜伽或者其他类型的灵活性训练吗？

Were there like yoga involved or any other kind of like mobility classes?

你们都安排了哪些项目？

What sort of things did you have?

是的，我们基本上制定了一套每周训练计划，针对的是跨多项运动的青少年运动员，我们安排了力量训练或力量与爆发力课程，另外还单独安排了一些等动训练课程。

Yeah, so we basically created a weekly schedule and I guess we were targeting like an adolescent athlete across multiple sports, we were doing strength classes or strength power classes and then some ice kinetic classes separately.

然后就像你说的，恢复性瑜伽，我们把它归为一类。

And then like you're saying like recovery yoga, which we kind of put into one bucket.

你会把瑜伽动作、泡沫轴或好的活动性训练动作都归入这一类，以促进恢复。

You would sort of take yoga moves and get your foam rollers or good mobility moves and put into that bucket and try and drive some recovery.

是的，这很酷。

Yeah, that's cool.

我只是回想起2009年，那时候这已经相当超前了。

I'm just thinking back 2009, that would have been quite cool for the time.

所以说到现在，你会怎么做得不一样？

So like bringing it to now, how would you do it differently?

因为在这方面的力量训练领域已经有了大量发展，

Because there's been so much involvement in that space in terms of strengthening,

是的，说真的，我们作为公司创始人的独特经历之一就是我们真的非常拼命工作。

Yeah, mean, one of the unique parts of the journey, which we experienced as suppose, the founders of the business is we were working really hard.

就像你创业时一样，你会投入无数个小时。

As you do, when you start your own business, you're putting in like countless number of hours.

我觉得现在回头看，你会从错误中学习，但如果你早知道如何做得更好，本可以省去一些弯路。

I think like looking back now, like, you learn from your mistakes, but you would shortcut a few things knowing in hindsight, how to do things better.

对我来说，现在运动员的评估是核心，因为有了评估，你总能设定目标，作为教练和运动员都需要有明确的方向。

For me now, the athlete, I guess profiling the athlete is kind of front and center because with a profile, you can always have targets and you need to have something to aim for as a coach and equally as an athlete.

我经常对训练的孩子或运动员说，一旦你给他们设定了目标，他们会更加努力，真正投入进去，从而取得更好的成果。

I think, I say it all the time with the kids I train or the athletes I train, like once you give them a target, they're gonna strive much harder and kind of their heels in so to speak and get better outcomes.

所以我认为，引导这条路径的责任在于教练。

So I think it's the onus is on the coach to kinda lead that path.

但确实，我们从一开始就这么做。

But yeah, think that's something we definitely do from the beginning.

然后更多地像对他表示一点歉意，但更需要进行一次深入的咨询，真正弄清楚他们想达成什么目标？

Then More like a bit more sorry about him, but a bit more of like a consultation to really figure out what are they trying to aim for?

他们所从事的运动项目，最终想走向哪里？

Where are they going with whatever sport discipline they're doing?

所以接下来

So then

你们可以更清晰地针对他们和你们的目标进行规划。

you can actually target things a little bit more clearly with them and you guys.

我觉得，没错，就是这样。

I think, yeah, that's right.

有时候如果你问运动员，他们想要什么？

Like sometimes if you ask an athlete, well, what do they want?

他们的目标是什么？

What are their goals?

他们会告诉你他们知道的东西，但他们并不了解我们所知道的。

They're gonna tell you what they know, but they don't know what we know.

所以我觉得，倾听他们并获取一些反馈是好的，但同样，我们也要推动这个过程，以促进他们的成长。

So I think, yeah, it's good to listen to them and get some feedback, but equally, we wanna drive that process for their betterment.

这是一个有趣的动态，因为通常涉及运动员、家长和教练，还有SNC教练参与决策，但并非所有人都能达成一致。

And it's an interesting dynamic because you've got the athlete often the parent and the coach, and then you've got the SNC coach involved in making those decisions and not everyone sees the eye to eye.

如果从我的角度来看，当在体能发展方面获得良好支持，且教练、家长或运动员之间没有太多障碍时，你就能取得非常好的成果。

Guess if you're looking at it through my lens, when you get good buy from the physical development point of view, and there's not many barriers with whether it be the coach or the parent or the athlete, you get really good outcomes.

你一开始也想了解整个局面。

You kind of want to understand the landscape to begin with as well.

是的。

Yeah.

但我见过一些非常好的例子，比如克雷格·古德温，他特别让我印象深刻，因为他愿意努力工作。

But there's some really good examples that I saw, Craig Goodwin is a really good one that sticks out in my mind where he was just prepared to work.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

看看他现在的样子，这在他早期就打下了坚实的基础。

Look at him now, that would have built a base for him early days.

没错。

Absolutely.

才能达到他如今的成就。

To get to where he's at now.

对。

That's right.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

我们曾有不少澳式足球运动员来寻求被选中，他们最终被选中了，我认为这些成功晋升到下一阶段的球员都有一个共同点：他们始终怀有强烈的愿望和动力去实现目标。

And if I, we had a number of AFL boys come through who were looking to get drafted and then got picked up and I guess the general rule across those players who pushed to that next level is they've always got this desire and drive to get there.

因此，他们是主动推动自己的进程，而不是被动地被推着走。

So they're much driving their own process as opposed to being forced to the order.

是的，这种人正是你希望合作的对象，也是你希望拥有的客户。

Yeah, they're the sort of people you wanna work with, they're the sort of clients you wanna have.

当你遇到这样的人时，整个过程会变得非常愉快、轻松，你会充满动力去全身心投入。

When you have that, it's just the process is just extremely enjoyable, Very easy and you're motivated to really get stuck in.

并不是说必须强迫别人去努力就有什么不对，但我不希望仅仅当一个健身教练，只会大声命令别人动起来、做这个做那个。

Not that there's anything wrong with having to really drive it, but like, I don't necessarily wanna be a personal trainer just like barking at someone telling someone to move and do this.

我希望合作是双向的，我会尽我的责任，当对方也积极投入时，我们就能共同朝着某个特别的目标努力。

Like I want it to be collaborative and I'll do my part and it's nice when the other person does their part and we can really work towards something special together.

没错。

That's right.

我现在正在讨论的问题是，一个职业球员在青少年时期会是什么样子，比如莱伊，他出生并成长于南澳，肯定会疯狂地抓住每一个机会。

I'm having the conversation at the moment is, what would a pro be like at a junior level when like Lay knew it comes to mind because his SA born and bred, he would be frothing at the mouth, just like trying to eat up anything he could get.

是的。

Yes.

我当时不在场，所以不能这么说，但我可以想象。

So I wasn't there to say that, but I would imagine.

那就是他会那样。

That's what it would

根据我听到的所有关于他当时身边人的故事，都是一样的说法，就是对这个过程日复一日地全身心投入和努力。

have From all the stories I've heard from people that were around him at that time, it's always the same thing, just absolute dedication and hard work to that process day Yeah, in, day

没错。

that's right.

因此，对于这一代人来说，这是一个挑战，在某种程度上，因为他们所面对的外界因素与我年轻时所经历的不同。

And so it's a challenge, particularly with this generation to some extent because they're contending with other different forces than what I contended with when I was their age.

我认为我们作为教练需要关注这一点，关注技术的影响、他们的思维方式、专注力，以及他们是否愿意深入投入工作，坚持完成这个过程并最终取得成果。

I think there's a lot of room and we need to be paying attention to that as coaches and just the influence of technology and where their mindset is and their ability to concentrate and focus and really like anything, delve into the work and be willing to go through that process and come out the other side.

是的，说得太对了。

Yeah, spot on.

因为我觉得你比我大一点，但在我成长的过程中，仍然被灌输了更多传统价值观，比如努力工作。

Because I feel like you're a little bit older than me, but I felt like when I was growing up, still had those more traditional values instilled just about like hard work.

我成长的过程中，科技逐渐进入了我的生活。

I had technology come in as I was growing up.

所以我并没有受到太大影响。

So I wasn't really as affected by it.

我们仍然会到外面去玩，自己编游戏。

We still went outside, we still play, we still made up our own games.

我们没有像现在这样深受社交媒体和社会压力的影响。

We weren't as affected by social media and those social forces as much.

所以我觉得我在某种程度上拥有了两全其美的经历。

So I feel like I got the best of both worlds in a way.

我觉得我们已经失去了一些那种传统价值观——真正努力工作、经历过程，明白事情不会轻易得到，必须耐心等待，日复一日、年复一年地重复练习，才能达到你想要的目标。

I feel like we've lost a bit of that, those traditional values to really work hard and go through the process and realize that things don't come easy and you have to be patient with it and you have to repeat the process over and over again, day after day, over the course of months, years to really get towards somewhere that you wanna get to.

因为我们现在已经习惯了随时随地拥有的一切。

Because we're so used to having everything at our fingertips right now.

当这些不再奏效时，就会想：天哪，为什么这个不管用了？

And when that doesn't work, it's like, oh my God, why is this not working?

我只想现在就看到结果。

I just want it to happen now.

但事实是，这需要一些时间。

It's like, no, it takes some time.

所以我的问题是，你觉得我们是否需要稍微回归传统、更注重艰苦努力的方式，来教会孩子更有韧性？

So my question is, do you feel we need to go a little bit more traditional old school, bit more like kind of hard work to teach kids to be more resilient?

那这里的平衡点在哪里？

Where's the balance at there?

因为我们不想走得太远，变成一味地对孩子大喊大叫。

Cause we don't wanna go too far away to just like, yelling at kids all the time.

但我们需要稍微往那个方向调整一下吗？

But do we need to go a little bit more that way?

我支持回归传统方式。

It's my back to the old school.

是也不是，这绝对是灰色地带，我认为这可能部分取决于你所合作的对象。

Yes and no, it's definitely shades of gray and I think it probably depends partly on who you're working with.

我脑海中确实有一个模型，我知道如何进行过渡，他们称之为从初级比赛向精英成年比赛的过渡。

There's definitely like a model, like I've got in my mind where I know like to transition and they call it a transition from basically junior competition to elite adult competition.

这是一个巨大的飞跃。

That's a big jump.

如果我们正在培养运动员，我们是否在为他们应对这一飞跃做准备？

If we're preparing athletes, are we preparing them for that jump?

我认为，唯一的方法是通过身体和心理上的准备。

And I think the only way to prepare them is physically and psychologically.

所以让他们变得坚韧，我们圈子里常用的一个术语是‘坚韧不摧’。

So they become resilient and one of the terminologies we use in our world is resilient unbreakable.

所以我认为，当他们进入运动生涯的这一阶段，试图向顶级环境迈进时，他们能承受得住这些考验吗？

So I think if they're entering that stage of their sport and they're looking to push into that environment at the top level, are they gonna withstand the rigors?

别忘了，这不仅仅是身体或技能的问题，还有一场完整的心理较量在进行。

Let's not forget that it's not just the physical or the skill, there's a whole psychological battle going on as well.

比如，我配得上在那里吗？

Like, do I belong there?

当我到达那里时，我是去争取自己的位置，还是坚定地守住它？

When I get there, am I gonna like compete for my spot or am I gonna stand my ground?

这种情况确实会发生，对吧？

This plays out, right?

我认为，正是在这种地方，旧式理念才派得上用场，因为它依然是一种强者生存的逻辑。

So I think that's really where a bit of the old school mentality fits because it's somewhat of the survival of the fitter still.

我认为，如果你在培养阶段庇护孩子，不让他们经历这些，将来可能会害了他们。

I think if you're sheltering kids in the development environment from that, you're probably doing them disservice later down the track.

在你看来，这种心理训练是什么样的？

What does that psychological training look like to you?

我们究竟该如何训练孩子，来提升他们的心理能力？

How do we actually train kids to work on the psychological side?

因为这是我所看到的方面。

Because that's the side that I see.

我们需要在这一方面下最大的功夫。

We need the most work on it.

根据我的观察，目前很多孩子在这方面的表现都很挣扎。

So a lot of kids are struggling with that side at the moment from my observations.

是的，内在动机，也就是来自内心的动机，我认为是其中的关键。

Yeah, intrinsic motivation, which means motivation from within, I think is a key feature of it.

我想这又回到了休伊特的例子，他当时很枯燥。

And I guess that just goes back to Hewitt example is he was like dry.

是的，他背后确实有其他因素在推动，但归根结底，如果他不是自己想走这条路，我认为一切都会崩塌。

Yes, there was other influences behind what he was doing, but ultimately if he wasn't driving where he wanted to go, like it would have crumbled down in my opinion.

这又回到了了解你的为什么。

It comes back to knowing your why.

如果你清楚自己为什么忍受这些艰难时刻，我认为这能帮助你度过那些难关。

Like if you have your purpose in your why as to why you're enduring some hard things and I think it can get you through those moments.

那是

That's

对的。

right.

当光线稍微暗一点的时候。

When it is a little bit darker.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，有一个叫做刻意练习的概念：如果你谈论的是年轻运动员，尤其是青春期前的孩子，你实际上希望他们广泛接触各种不同的活动。

And so there's this concept of deliberate practice where if you talk about a younger athlete, pre adolescents, you actually want quite a broad base of stimulus or exposure to different activities.

我认为网球很有趣，因为人们谈论早期接触，你几乎是在获得一系列广泛技能，但你也需要相当快地聚焦到某一领域。

I think tennis is interesting because they talk about early exposure and then you're almost getting a bit of a broad base of skills, but you actually kind of need to kind of like narrow into it pretty quickly as well.

所以这就有了所谓的早期专项化运动和晚期专项化运动。

So you've got like what they call early specialization sports and late specialization.

比如田径运动就是晚期专项化，通常要到二十多岁才能达到顶尖水平。

So athletics, for example, is a late specialization, not becoming like top level until you're probably mid 20s.

而网球的情况发生得要早一些。

Whereas tennis, like that happens a little bit earlier.

另一个例子是体操，这种情况甚至更早发生。

And again, another example is gymnastics, that happens even earlier again.

所以这些动态正在发生，无论我们是否意识到，关键在于获得一些理解，以及在外界普及相关的认知和教育，了解它们的含义，以及在你发展的不同阶段该如何应对。

So these dynamics are going on whether we realize it or not, it's a matter of, I guess, getting some understanding and I suppose some awareness and education out there around how or what they mean and then obviously what you do about it through different stages of your development.

但再次回到刻意练习这个概念，最核心的是反馈。

So, but again, circling back to this deliberate practice concept, me, like what's front and center is feedback.

我一直说，运动员可以分为三种类型。

And I've always said like, you've got three types of athletes.

有一种运动员讨厌接受反馈。

You've got the athlete who hates getting feedback.

比如你给他们的反馈，他们就会翻白眼、转过身去，诸如此类。

Like we'll just give you nothing like roll his eyes, turn away, whatever.

然后是态度中立的运动员，还有一种是主动寻求反馈的运动员。

Then the athletes sort of impartial in between and then there's the athlete who seeks that feedback.

我认为这是一个很好的指标，可以判断他们是否真正投入、充满热情，并渴望推动自己的表现以实现最终目标。

And I think that's a good barometer around whether they're really into it and passionate and wanting to drive their performance to, I guess their end outcome.

说了这么多，对我来说，从心理角度来看，反馈可能是最重要的概念，因为如果你身边都是优秀的人，你就会获得优质的反馈，而这将对你达成目标起到关键作用。

So in saying all that, feedback to me is probably the most important concept from a mental point of view because if you're surrounding yourself with good people, you're going to get good feedback and that will be instrumental to taking it where you wanna go.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, for sure.

而且你会对这些反馈保持开放态度。

And then you're gonna be open to that feedback.

没错。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我想谈的一件事是你提到了内在动机，它源自内心。我认为这可能是点燃激情、激发内在动力、让你开始相信自己能够做到的最重要因素。

One thing I wanted to talk about was you touched on intrinsic motivation and that coming from within, I think that's got to be probably one of the most important things to get the kindling of the fire going to start that internal fire, to start to believe that you can do things.

你认为这是一种任何人都可以通过练习自我对话来掌握的技能吗？当你在网球场上时，真正开始意识到自己内心的对话，因为我们每个人都会陷入一种消极的思维循环，一旦陷入就难以摆脱，最终导致一场灾难性的训练或比赛。

Do you think it's a skill that anyone can learn when you just practice self talk when you're on the tennis court and you really actually start to become aware of the inner dialogue you have because we all have this just negative feedback loop of thinking that just comes up that we can just get stuck in and then we kind of spiral and vortex down and then it's almost like impossible to get out of and then you've had a disaster session or disaster match.

所以，这是否就是关于开始真正意识到内心的对话，并用你与自己交谈的方式去取代它，激励自己，从而获得不同的结果？

So is it all about starting to really just be aware of the inner dialogue and just replacing that with the way you talk to yourself, pumping yourself up, actually motivating yourself to do something to get a different outcome.

你是这样看待的吗？

Is that how you see it?

是的，我认为你的表现会给你反馈。

Yeah, I think like your performance gives you feedback.

所以，假设你对自己说一些消极的话，这对你有帮助吗？

And so I guess that, say you are talking negative to yourself, is that working for you?

如果确实有用，那很好，表现应该以结果来评判。

And if it is like great, the performance should be judged on essentially results.

如果它有效或无效，我认为这就是你开始评估自己状态的地方。

And so if it is or it isn't working, think that's where you start to assess where you're at with it.

但就我个人而言，我经常用一个比喻，尤其是在网球中，我觉得很多时候你会陷入一种对抗状态，既有身体上的较量，也有心理上的博弈。

But as far as, I suppose in my opinion, like I've often used the analogy of particularly in Tennis, I feel like often at times you get into this grappling situation, and there's this physical battle and there's this psychological battle going on.

你确实能看到网球选手崩溃，因为他们陷入了心理上的拉锯战，几乎没有任何工具或技巧能摆脱这种困境，我认为网球正是把你置于这些情境中的运动。

And you literally see, as tennis players implode, because they're in this grapple mentally and almost have no tools or skills to be able to get out of that lockdown maneuver, and I think Tennis puts you in those scenarios.

我认为这正是这项运动的本质。

Think that's kind of the nature of the game.

我相信，积极地与自己对话是过程的一部分，但只是其中一部分。

I do believe like, talking positive to yourself is part of the process, but it's a part.

我觉得还有其他方面，比如保持专注。

Like I think there's other aspects of it around maintaining focus.

所以如果你看一下压力模型，每个人大概都有一个压力阈值。

So if you look at like the stress model, like everyone has, I suppose a threshold of stress.

当你被推超这个阈值时，就会进入战斗或逃跑反应。

When you get pushed beyond your threshold, you're effectively gonna go into a fight or flight response.

如果你有办法摆脱过度压力或过度刺激的状态，可能就不会把你推向那条路。

If you've got tools to get out of like an overstressed or overstimulated situation, it probably wasn't push you down that path.

所以如果比较运动员A和运动员B，他们各自的阈值可能不同。

And so I guess if you compare athlete A and athlete B, one's probably got a different threshold or they've got different thresholds to one another.

在我看来，这正是真正发生的事情。

So that's really what plays out in my opinion.

是的，你需要这些工具来应对这些压力情境。

Yeah, you need those tools to handle those, handle the stressful situation.

对于那些不了解网球、觉得它很简单的人来说，真正打过一段时间、对这项运动有基本理解的人，才能逐渐明白它的复杂性，尤其是在你达到一定水平后，每个人都能打得很接近，这时心理和情绪层面的因素就开始起作用了。

And I think for people who don't know tennis and just think it's easy, people on the inside who've played enough and have an idea of the game, you can start to understand how complex it is, especially once you get to a reasonable level where everyone can kind of play where their mental and emotional side comes in.

而这完全是另一个层面的问题。

And that is just a whole nother realm.

如果你从小没有接触过应对压力的工具，也没有成长在父母或周围人能帮助你应对压力的环境中，

And if you haven't grown up having tools or being in an environment where like maybe your parents or people around you have just helped you navigate stressful situations.

当你突然被抛入这种高强度的环境中时，你就根本无法应对。

You're gonna be thrown into this really intensity and you just won't be able to handle it.

那么你所说的这些工具，对我而言，比如呼吸法、一些固定的流程和仪式，是这样的吗？

So what are some of these tools that you're talking about for me, like breathing comes to mind, some sort of routines and rituals.

你提到的工具，是指这些方面吗？

Is that where you're thinking in terms of tools?

还有没有其他我们应当了解的工具？

Are there other tools that we should be aware of?

所以，我最近更关注的一种方法叫做正念接纳与承诺疗法。

So, I mean, one of the methods I've picked up on more recently is called like mindfulness acceptance commitment.

据我理解，我认为我们的身体在与正念教练合作时就是在使用这种方法。

And from my understanding, I believe that's what our body was using with her mindfulness coach.

但我的理解是，我们通常的表现能力其实是平均表现，而不是巅峰表现。

But my interpretation of that is, we're often, our ability to perform is often the average of our performance as opposed to the peak.

所以我认为运动员们往往会设定目标，试图一直保持巅峰状态，而不是意识到他们的平均水平才是真正的能力所在。

So I think athletes definitely set expectations around trying to live at peaks rather than understanding that their average is really actually where their levels at.

因此，期望往往会成为你的阻碍。

So I guess expectations get in your way.

所以，能够超越期望，不让它们把你压垮，是很重要的。

So being able to move beyond expectations and not let them kind of drive you into the ground.

我认为这是接纳过程的一部分。

I think it's part of the acceptance process.

但这就像是从一个宏观的角度看待自己，能够看清你所处的处境。

But it's almost like having that top down view of yourself and being able to see the situation you're in.

我认为如果你能做到这一点，你就拥有了某些工具或能力，可以专注于那些能让你摆脱困境的因素。

And I think if you can do that, then you've got, I suppose some tools or the ability to focus on what can drive you out of that.

我认为这能带来清晰度。

I think it creates clarity.

所以这是一个非常重要的点。

So that's a big one.

是的，这正是其中承诺部分的体现。

Yeah, and that's where the commitment part of it is.

也就是说，你真正承诺的是什么？

It's like, if you're, what are you committed to?

有时候，是的，我们都想要成功，但推动成功的根本原因是什么？我们之前在一个关于里基·庞廷的研讨会上讨论过，他说过，只专注于球。

Like sometimes, yeah, we all want success but what is driving success behind it all and often just, that's something we spoke about in a workshop around Ricky Ponting used to say, just focus on the ball.

所以我觉得这一点很好，因为我们脑海中总在上演各种故事，比如‘我能’或‘我不能’做这件事之类的，但归根结底，球总会打到你的拍子上，而那里没有故事。

So I think that's a good one in the sense that we have these stories playing out in our minds about, I can or I can't do this or whatever, but end of the day, that ball is going to come onto your racket and there's no story in that.

你只需要好好击中它，或者击不中，就是这样，对吧。

It's just, you're going to hit it sweet or you're not like and yeah.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

我觉得你正在触及一些宝贵的观点。

I think you're touching on some gold here.

你必须接受你所处的境况，无论它是好是坏。

You have to accept the situation you're in, whether it's good or not good.

如果你做不到，我觉得你会陷入你所说的那种思维循环中。

And if you can't, then I feel like you're gonna get stuck in that story mode with the loop of thinking that you're talking about.

所以，如果处境不好，你也必须接受它本来的样子。

So if it's a bad situation, you have to accept it for what it is.

现在发生的就是这样。

That's what's going on right now.

你不能欺骗自己。

You can't lie to yourself.

这就是现实。

That's the truth of the situation.

所以一旦你接受了这一点，你就能真正看清正在发生的事情，并希望开始实施一些改变和解决方案。

So once you're accepting that, then you can actually start to have a view of what is going on and then hopefully start to embed some changes, some solutions.

但如果你不给自己这样的时刻，我觉得我完全有罪。

But if you actually don't give yourself that moment, I feel like I'm completely guilty.

只是陷入其中。

Just get stuck in.

我们会。

We will

做它。

do it.

是的，在那种应对模式下，一切都会变得令人不知所措，你无法清晰思考，你只需要暂停一下。

Yeah, in that match mode, just it gets all overwhelming and you can't think clearly and you just need to take that pause.

你开始匆忙行动，我知道我有急躁的倾向，所以我得拉住自己，给自己时间，停下来，重新调整，问问自己：现在到底发生了什么？

You start rushing, I know I have a rushing tendency, so just pulling myself and giving myself time, just to pause and reset, just go, what is going on right now?

接下来我该怎么做？

And what's my next play?

我该如何尝试找到一条不同的路径，而不是继续走这条行不通的路呢？

How do I maybe try to find a different avenue here that's not working?

网球的本质就是如此，有些日子表现得好，有些日子则不然，但你必须学会换个思路去应对，这正是解决问题的关键。

That's kind of tennis in a nutshell is some days it's gonna work, it's not, but you've got to try to navigate away in a sense and that's kind of the problem solving.

这都是你所需要的。

It's all

你需要的。

you need.

我认为这需要经验和实践，不是光靠理论就能掌握的，你必须真正去尝试并付诸实践。

I think it's something you've got to get experience and practice, it's like not something you theorize about, like you've got to actually try and put it into practice.

当涉及到心理和情绪管理时，这确实非常困难，因为管理情绪本身就相当棘手。

And that's a really difficult thing when it's like mental, emotional, managing emotions can be pretty tricky.

没错，确实如此。

It's true, it's true.

你可以在训练场上在一定程度上练习这种能力。

Like you can practice it on the training court to a certain extent.

我认为任何尽可能模拟比赛场景或以多种方式模拟比赛的训练都是有帮助的。

I think any training that replicates a match as much as possible or in many different ways is helpful.

但同样，比赛场地才是所有事情真正发生的地方。

But again, like the match court is where it's all done.

是的，但我觉得正念就在这里与这个概念产生交集，因为从本质上讲，你会随着时间产生神经生理上的变化。

Yeah, but I think this is where the mindfulness intersects in this concept because effectively you're getting like a neurophysiological change over time.

我认为重要的是要认识到，通过投入努力进行练习，身体层面确实会发生变化。

And I think it's important to recognise that in the sense that things are actually changing on physical level by putting effort into that practice.

因此，当你处于那些情绪高涨的时刻时，你可能已经具备了更好的能力来重新掌控局面，是的，

And so, I guess when you're in those moments where you experience these heightened emotions, you've probably got better ability to wrestle back control so to Yeah,

我明白你的意思，因为如果你长期练习正念，它不会立刻产生变化，可能要几个月你才能察觉到。

I know what you mean because if you practice something like mindfulness over the course, it's not gonna change like that, it's gonna take months before you even maybe notice it.

而且这很难衡量。

And you it's hard to measure.

它不像那些眼睛连接的机器，能提供明确的反馈数据。

It's not really like something you can track like these eyes are connecting machines, they have a pass to which that shows you clear feedback.

这更像是以前会让你特别沮丧的事情，但突然间你妈妈说的那句话不再让你生气了，你反而变得非常平静。

It's more like something that used to really frustrate you, but maybe that your mom said to you all of a sudden didn't frustrate you and you're really calm about it.

这正是正念在起作用。

That's mindfulness actually working.

你可以在网球场上看到这种变化的轨迹：过去那种会让你心理崩溃的挑战性情境，突然间你没有崩溃，反而更冷静，处理得当，并且能够顺利度过。

And it's, you can see that tracking over time on the tennis court where like some challenging situation that you would normally mentally crumble in, all of a sudden you didn't crumble and you were calmer and you handled it and you are able to move through it.

没错。

That's right.

这些就是你的胜利时刻。

Which is like, they're the wins that you have.

我想人们可能不太相信，因为当他们尝试一次后，发现很难衡量效果。

That's like, I guess people maybe don't buy into it as much because it's not so measurable when they try it once.

他们会说：哦，没用。

It's like, Oh, it didn't work.

所以这有什么意义呢？

So what's the point kind of thing.

没错。

That's right.

我想今天早上进行这场对话时，我觉得人们往往喜欢 mindfulness 这个概念，因为它与他们自身可感知或有益的东西相关。

I think as I having this conversation this morning around, I think people tend to like the concept of how mindfulness connects to something tangible or beneficial for themselves.

所以我觉得 mindfulness 这个概念其实挺熟悉的，我们大概都想过‘也许我该试试看’，但好处到底在哪呢？

So I guess like it's pretty familiar or we're familiar with the concept of mindfulness and I assume we're kind of all gone, maybe I should do a bit of it, but what's the benefit?

为什么呢？

Like why?

我觉得我知道原因，是因为情绪智力这个方面。

And I think I know it's because of that emotional intelligence aspect.

你是想说，当那种愤怒、内心的火焰突然升腾起来时，你能够应对它，对吧？

Are you saying like, I suppose those red, that fire in the belly starts to really rise up to your mind, you're able to, I suppose, deal with that.

这种状况会发生在生活的方方面面。

And that happens in all areas of life.

这不仅仅是在网球场上，也不只是网球运动。

It's not just definitely on the tennis court, but it's not just the tennis court.

不，绝对不是。

No, absolutely not.

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

但我认为运动员需要理解为什么正念会帮助他们，尤其是在早期阶段，当他们还是青少年时，可能会想：‘我为什么要干这种无聊的事？’

But I think for athletes, they need to have that understanding of why something like mindfulness is gonna help them, especially in the early phases when they may be adolescents and they're like, Oh, what am I gonna do this rubbish for?

是的，没错。

Yeah, that's right.

这就像，将会

It's it's like, gonna

帮助我提升表现并保持冷静。

help me perform and stay calm.

我当时想，哦，原来如此。

I was like, oh, okay.

哦，我试了一下，做完一些呼吸练习后，我确实感觉平静了不少。

Oh, and I tried it and I felt actually quite calm after I did like some breathing exercises.

嗯，这真的很有趣。

Well, like that's really interesting.

有些人可能会忽视它，但那些将其与表现联系起来、明白它如何提升场上表现的人会不同。

Some people are gonna brush it aside, but the people that are maybe linking it to performance and how it's gonna better them on court.

对。

Yep.

在我的球杆里。

In my stick.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

对我而言，它自然而然地来了，比如我有运动和生理学的基础知识，战斗或逃跑反应是一个很好的指标，能反映你的心理状态。

And it just comes like for me, like having, I suppose a foundation in exercise and physiology and that sort of stuff like the fight or flight response is a pretty good indicator where your head's at.

再者，如果你回到压力模型，就会明白：我感到不堪重负，因为迎面而来的各种事情让我压力巨大。

And again, if you bring that back to the stress model, which is, I'm getting overwhelmed because whatever's coming at me is like really stressing me out.