伊斯兰教如何传入伊朗

从久已失落的维京船只和埋葬在意外地点的国王，到关于谋杀、权力、信仰以及中世纪欧洲及更广阔地区普通人生活的传说。

From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond.

加入我，马特·刘易斯博士。

Join me, Matt Lewis, Doctor.

埃莉诺·亚纳格，以及世界顶尖的一些历史学家，我们将让历史上最引人入胜的故事鲜活呈现，尽在History Hit频道。

Eleanor Yarnager, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on History Hit.

通过您的订阅，您将解锁数百小时的独家纪录片，每周推出全新内容，探索从古代世界到第二次世界大战的方方面面。

With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War two.

只需访问 historyhit.com/subscribe。

Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe.

你好。

Hello.

我是马特·刘易斯。

I'm Matt Lewis.

欢迎收听History Hit出品的《穿越中世纪》，这档播客将深入探索人类历史上最伟大的千年。

Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history.

我们揭示了从维京人到印刷术、从国王到教皇再到十字军东征的最引人入胜的谜团、令人震惊的细节和最新的突破性研究。

We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the Crusades.

我们跨越世纪与大陆，深入探究叛乱、阴谋与谋杀，挖掘那些或大或小却能告诉我们如何走到今天的故事。

We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots, murders to find the stories big and small that tell us how we got here.

通过《去往中世纪》，了解我们真实的样子。

Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

欢迎收听《去往中世纪》的特别加更集。

Welcome to this special extra episode of Gone Medieval.

仅仅两个月前，数百万伊朗人走上街头抗议，而最近几天的事件不断升级，再次将伊朗推上媒体聚光灯下。

Only two months ago, millions of Iranians took to the streets to protest, and events in recent days have spiraled, putting the country once again in the media spotlight.

尽管这似乎是一场由当下政治、经济制裁、现代不满以及伊朗所谓的核野心引发的危机，但伊朗的紧张局势远比过去五十年要深远得多。

And while it may seem like this is a crisis born of the present moment of politics, economic sanctions, modern discontent, and Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions, tensions in Iran run deeper than the last five decades.

几个世纪以来，伊朗人民一直在与权力、信仰和身份进行斗争。

The Iranian people have been wrestling with power, faith, and identity for centuries.

要理解今天伊朗的伊斯兰教为何呈现如此面貌——为何被接受、被质疑、被重塑、被抵制——我们必须回溯，不仅跨越几个世纪，更要回到一千多年前，那个世界曾称之为波斯的土地。

To understand why Islam in Iran looks the way that it does today, why it's embraced, contested, reshaped, and resisted, we have to travel back, not just centuries, but more than a millennium, to the land the world once called Persia.

在成为伊斯兰国家之前，中世纪的伊朗——也就是我们所说的波斯——并不是一个等待被改造的文化边陲。

Before it was Islamic, medieval Iran, or Persia as we call it, was not a cultural backwater waiting to be transformed.

它是古代世界的重要瑰宝，文明发达、多元包容，并对自己的身份深感自豪。

It was one of the great prizes of the ancient world, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, and fiercely proud of its identity.

到了七世纪，来自阿拉伯的军队带着一种新的信仰——伊斯兰教——到来。

Then in the seventh century came the armies from Arabia, bearers of a new faith, Islam.

在几十年内，强大的萨珊帝国覆灭，波斯被卷入了一个诞生于其疆域之外的宗教体系。

In a matter of decades, the mighty Sassanian Empire fell, and Persia was drawn into the orbit of a religion born far beyond its borders.

但征服从来不只是关于刀剑和旗帜。

But conquest is never just about swords and banners.

它还关乎记忆、适应与抵抗，关乎人们如何逐渐将一种外来信仰转化为自己的信仰，或予以抵制。

It's also about memory, about adaptation and resistance, about how people take a foreign faith and over time make it their own or resist it.

今天，在《Gone Medieval》节目中，我们将回溯到那场碰撞的时刻——阿拉伯穆斯林对波斯的征服。

Today on God Medieval, we're going back to the moment of that collision, the Arab Muslim conquest of Persia.

为了帮助我们理解塑造今日伊朗的中世纪世界，我邀请到了科哈德·雷扎哈尼博士，这位研究公元500至1000年间中亚与西亚全球晚期古典与早期中世纪历史的学者。

To help us understand the medieval world that shaped Iran today, I'm joined by doctor Khodad Rezakhani, a historian of global late antiquity and early Middle Ages with a focus on Central And West Asia between 05/2007 hundred CE.

我们将探讨伊斯兰教如何首次在伊朗土地上扎根，伊斯兰教到来前后中世纪波斯的面貌，以及这些早期接触如何至今仍影响着伊朗人对伊斯兰教的态度。

We'll explore how Islam first took root on Iranian soil, what medieval Persia looked like before and afterwards, and how those early encounters still echo in Iranian attitudes towards Islam today.

热烈欢迎来到《中世纪上帝》节目，霍达达德。

A very warm welcome to Gone Medieval, Khodadad.

很高兴你加入我们。

It's great to have you with us.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

我也是。

Same.

能和你们在一起我非常高兴。

I'm very happy to be with you.

我也很期待了解更多关于这个话题的内容。

I'm looking forward to finding out more about this topic too.

所以我们将会谈论在古代被称为波斯的地区。

So we're going to talk about the area that would have in ancient times been known as Persia.

当我们进入早期中世纪初期，大约从公元三世纪开始，也就是我们通常认为尚未进入早期中世纪之前，该地区存在的帝国是萨珊帝国。

And when we get to the beginning of the early medieval period, so from around the third century, so just before we would think we've moved into the early medieval period, the empire that exists in that region is the Sassanian Empire.

所以，你能否为我们简单介绍一下他们？

So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about them.

他们是如何在该地区掌权的？

How did they come to power in that region?

非常好。

Very good.

如果我可以从你使用的‘波斯’一词谈起，这个词在当今可能听起来非常政治化，因为现在某些具有特定政治倾向的人倾向于使用‘波斯’和‘波斯人’来指代，而‘伊朗’和‘伊朗人’则另当别论。

If I might start with your use of the term Persia, which might, in this day and age, sounds very political and politicized because now certain people with certain political leanings tend to use Persia and Persian as a designation, then Iran and Iran.

我不会完全深入这个话题。

And I'm not going to purely get into that.

我只是想澄清一下，‘波斯’是一个他称，是外部人给这个地区起的名字。

I'm just going to clarify that Persia is an exonym, is an external name given to the region.

它具体源于我们所讨论的更大区域中的某个地方。

It specifically comes from an area of the greater region we are talking about.

而本地名称，即内部称呼，始终源自‘伊朗’这个词的词根，这个词本质上意思是‘人民’，就像其他一切一样。

And the endonym, the internal name was always something derived from the term or which is the root of the word Iran, which essentially means the people, really, like everything else.

你知道，我们是人民，其他所有人都是，嗯，别的东西，野蛮人之类的。

You know, we are the people, everybody else is, you know, something else, barbarians or whatever.

所以‘air’这个词，以及作为其复数形式的‘Iran’，一直是该地区的自称。

So the word air and the the combination Iran, which is a substantive sort of plural of it, was always the exonym of the area.

因此需要澄清的是，从某种意义上说，‘波斯’仍然是一个有效的术语。

So this should be clarified that Persia in a sense is still a valid term.

这就像‘荷兰’和‘尼德兰’的关系，荷兰是尼德兰的一部分，但许多世纪以来，整个地区都被称为荷兰，因为那是重要的政治中心。

It's sort of like Holland and The Netherlands, where Holland is a part of The Netherlands, but for many time, many centuries, the entire area was known as Holland because that was the important political area.

所以这一点就说明到这里。

So that's for that.

而这个帝国实际上自称‘伊朗沙赫’，即伊朗帝国或艾尔帝国的统治者。

And specifically for the empire, which actually calls itself the ruler of Iran Shah, the ruler of the empire of Iran or empire of air.

也就是说，中古波斯语中的‘airan shah’就是萨珊帝国。

That is, you know, sort of the middle Persian term air on shaft is the Sasanian Empire.

萨珊帝国可以说是一种典型的晚期古代帝国，因为它兴起于我们所谓的晚期古代的最早阶段，并在我们或许稍显宽泛地认为是晚期古代末期的时候结束。

Sasanian Empire is a you could say in a sense a quintessential late antique empire in the sense of it comes up towards the earliest part of what we call late antiquity and ends around the time that we maybe with a bit of a stretch imagine to be the late end of late antiquity.

晚期古代是一个非常模糊的术语，实际上是近半个世纪才创造出来的概念。

Late antiquity being a very fluid term and being sort of a creation of the last half a century.

在三世纪，安息帝国经历了长达半个多世纪的危机，我们如今意识到，这是一场深刻的社会与经济危机，以及严重政治和王朝危机，同时面临外部威胁——最广为人知的是来自罗马一方，还有来自东方的多个势力，包括贵霜帝国，它们不断从东部边境施压。

So in the third century there has been over half a century of crisis in the arsassid empire, they had been dealing with what we now realize is a social and economic crisis, a serious political and sort of dynastic crisis, and threats from outside, both from, well, the most well known Roman side and also from the East where various powers in the East, including the Kushan empire had been pushing against them from their eastern borders.

安息人实际上已经开始瓦解。

And the Parthians had really have started breaking down.

就在三世纪，一个新兴的地方势力——来自国家南部佩尔西斯省的统治者——突然崛起，因此得名波斯帝国。

And all of a sudden in the third century, this upstart power local ruler of a province in the south of the country called Persis hence the Persian empire.

阿尔达希尔迅速崛起，推翻了所有安息统治者，建立了这个帝国，并迅速塑造出一个高度统一且稳固的帝国形象。

Rutan comes up very quickly removes all the arsusetts establishes this empire, has a very uniform and very, very quickly forming solid image of an empire.

我们通过使用‘崇拜阿胡拉·马兹达的国王’这一说法，看到了这种稳固形象的体现，阿胡拉·马兹达是琐罗亚斯德教的神明。

So we see this solid image in expression of some sort of a divine grace given to them by use of the word, Mazda worshiping Ahura Mazda, the god of Zoroastrian, Mazda worshiping king.

他们开始使用‘伊朗’这一术语，很快，伊朗、伊朗、伊朗就广泛流传开来。

They start using the term Iran and very soon Iran and Iran and Iran.

他们自称‘沙汗沙伊朗’，即伊朗之王，统治伊朗人和非伊朗人。

They call themselves Shahan Shah Iran or an Iran, king of Iran, Iranians and non Iranians.

他们开始发行硬币，这种硬币在整个四百多年统治期间保持高度统一：背面是火坛，正面是国王肖像，很快便成为整个东方银币体系的基础，一直延续到中世纪伊斯兰时期，甚至可以说延续到蒙古时期及以后。

They start issuing these coins which stay pretty uniform throughout the entire four hundred and more year of the rule with a fire alter in the reverse of the coin, the face of the king on the obverse of the coin very quickly recognizable really becomes the basis of all the eastern silver coinage up to the medieval Islamic period up to even you could say the Mongol period and even beyond.

这种硬币极具标志性，图案和文字都极具代表性。

Very iconic coinage, very iconic image, very iconic words.

突然间，这个帝国有了清晰的东、西边界，权力中心逐渐向南迁移，位于现代巴格达以南35公里的泰西封成为宏伟的首都，其规模可与罗马或君士坦丁堡相媲美。它由五六个相互连接的小城组成，成为该地区犹太学术的中心，也成为东方牧首区的中心——这个牧首区至今仍存，并保留着原名：‘塞琉西亚-泰西封牧首区’。这座城市被称为泰西封，是帝国权力的核心，经济体系通过货币及其他物证清晰可辨，当然，还有持续不断的冲突。

It all of a sudden becomes a very discernible empire with eastern and western borders, they more and more move towards the center, that center in Tassifon 35 kilometers south of modern Baghdad becomes this grand capital very comparable to Rome or Constantinople, it's made up of five or six little cities that are attached to each other, it becomes the center of the Jewish learning in the region, it becomes the center of the patriarchate of the east which still exists and bears its name, it's still called the Patriarchate of Seleucia Ctesiphon, the city is called Ctesiphon and very much an imperial center, imperial power, an economy that is very easily identifiable through this coinage and through everything else, and of course, constant conflicts.

我们能否明确地指出，如果把这个帝国叠加到现代地图上，它的地理范围具体是怎样的？

Can we just pin down kind of exactly geographically what this empire looks like if we were to overlay it onto a modern map?

显然，它会涵盖今天的伊朗。

Presumably, it would incorporate Iran.

你提到首都位于巴格达以南不远的地方。

You've mentioned the capital is not far South of Baghdad.

它是否也包括今天的伊拉克？

Does it include Iraq, modern Iraq as well?

它还覆盖其他地区吗？

Does it cover other areas too?

帝国的核心领土包括现代伊朗、现代伊拉克、现代土耳其的部分地区、相当大一部分现代阿富汗、现代土库曼斯坦和乌兹别克斯坦的部分地区。

There is a core territories of the empire, which is really modern Iran, modern Iraq, parts of modern Turkey would be parts of a whole lot of modern Afghanistan, places that would be modern Turkmenistan and parts of modern Uzbekistan.

在高加索地区，基本上包括阿塞拜疆、亚美尼亚和格鲁吉亚东部，以及阿拉伯半岛的南部或东部地区。

And then in the Caucasus, basically, essentially Azerbaijan, Armenia, and parts of Eastern Georgia, as well as the Southern or the Eastern part of the Arabian Peninsula.

也就是现代沙特阿拉伯、卡塔尔、巴林、阿联酋、阿曼，而在大部分时期，特别是最近一百年，也包括也门。

So modern parts of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Oman, and in a good part of it, particularly in the last hundred years, Yemen.

在大约十五到二十年的时间里，他们还统治了现代土耳其全境、叙利亚、黎巴嫩、约旦、以色列、巴勒斯坦以及整个埃及。

There is also a period of about fifteen to twenty years where they also rule over all of pretty much modern Turkey, all of Syria, all of Lebanon, all of Jordan, all of Israel, Palestine, and all of Egypt.

因此，在七世纪时，他们实际上已经推进到非洲，并几乎抵达欧洲的边界。

So in the seventh century, they actually managed to push into Africa and pretty much to the borders of Europe as well.

但这只是短暂的时期。

But that's only like towards for a short while.

所以我认为这些并不属于核心领土。

So I would say those are not the core territories.

核心领土大致以幼发拉底河的可达性为界定，即从阿富汗到伊拉克，以及伊拉克西部，从格鲁吉亚，比如说，一直到那里。

The core territory loosely is defined access to Euphrates, meaning sort of Afghanistan to Iraq and Western Part of Iraq, and from Georgia, let's say, to yeah.

从东部阿拉伯半岛到，比如说，阿联酋。

Eastern Arabia to to, let's say, United Arab Emirates.

萨珊帝国的贵族有多强大？

How powerful is an aristocracy in the Sasanian empire?

从贵族阶层往下，整个帝国的社会结构是怎样的？

And how is society kind of structured throughout the empire from the aristocracy down?

一个多世纪以来，甚至更久，东方学家们基于印欧理想化社会的视角，以及琐罗亚斯德教文本等，推广了一种理想化的版本，设想了一个高度分层、甚至带有种姓制度的体系，国王位于顶端。

There is an ideal version of that that has been promoted for more than a century and even more by orientalists, particularly who had been looking at these things from the point of view of Indo European idealized society, the point of view of Zoroastrian texts, so on and so forth, which imagines a very stratified and even caste based system in which the king goes on top.

存在一个贵族阶层。

There is an aristocracy.

存在一个宗教贵族阶层。

There is a religious aristocracy.

存在一个城市精英群体。

There is a urban elites group.

然后是生产者，还有农民。

Then there are producers, and then there are the farmers.

你知道的。

You know?

这种情况正在下滑。

And this is going down.

越来越多的证据表明，这并不真实。

More and more shows that it's not real.

我们真正的问题在于，贵族议题被过度聚焦，而其他相关观念却被搁置了。

Our problem really is that the issue of aristocracy has just been focused on and they are deferring ideas on them.

有一种观点认为，存在一组显赫的家族。

There is the idea that there was a set set of high families.

这是十九世纪由著名东方学家西奥多·诺尔德克提出的，他列举了七个统治帝国各地广阔领土的萨珊王朝贵族家族。

This is something that was already set in the nineteenth century by the great orientalist Theodor Noldeke who provisions seven noble families of the Sasanian Empire ruling over various grand territories around the empire.

因此，这些是大地主，他们与中央皇室达成某种协议进行统治。

So these are the large landowners, and they are ruling in some sort of an agreement with the central sort of imperial family.

我猜想萨珊王朝拥有各种类型的贵族，包括血统贵族、军事贵族、经济贵族和精英，以及宗教精英。

I would imagine that Sasanians had various types of aristocracy, including genealogical aristocracies, including military aristocracies, including economic aristocracies and elites, religious ones.

我认为，总体上我们应该把这一切作为一个整体来考虑。

And I think as a whole, we should consider this entire thing together.

我正试图就此写一些东西。

And I am trying to write something about that.

但我对这个问题还没有清晰的想法。

And I don't have clear ideas about it yet.

所以，对于这个简单的问题，我的复杂回答是：我们还不知道。

So my complicated answer to a simple question is, we don't know.

但当然，它确实存在贵族。

But of course, it has aristocracies.

它拥有精英阶层。

It has elite.

他们究竟是什么样的，我们仍在探索过程中。

What they are, we still are in the process of finding out.

我们之前稍微谈到了该地区的政治结构及其变化。

We've talked a little bit then about the political structures of the region and how that is changing.

我想知道我们是否也能谈谈宗教状况。

I wonder if we could talk a bit about the religious situation too.

萨珊王朝正在推行一系列集权化的政治改革。

The Sassanians are bringing about all of these centralizing political reforms.

他们是否也进行了宗教改革？

Do they make any religious reforms?

萨珊帝国的主导宗教是什么？

What is the dominant religion in the Sassanian empire?

毫无疑问，我们所谓的琐罗亚斯德教，实际上是对一系列宗教信仰的后期正式化。

There is no doubt that some sort of what we call Zoroastrianism for all practical purposes is a much later formalization of a series of religious beliefs.

所以，把它想象成英国殖民前的印度教。

So think of it more like pre British Hinduism.

存在某种我们称之为琐罗亚斯德教的宗教认同，尤其是在伊朗高原、中亚地区，最初甚至包括高加索地区。

There is some sort of a religious identity which we recognize as Zoroastrianism and certainly in the lands of the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia and initially even in the Caucasus.

我可以称之为一种主导的信仰体系。

This is a dominant belief system, let me call it.

我对‘宗教’这个词过敏。

I am allergic to the term religion.

从阿尔达希尔一世开始，这位首位皇帝就在钱币上自称‘马兹达的崇拜者’，即崇拜马兹达的主。

The emperors certainly from Ardashir the first, from the very first emperor or Ardashir the first Under coinage called themselves Mazdas Nbag, so the Mazda worshiping lord.

因此，与阿胡拉·马兹达——琐罗亚斯德教的至高神——的这种认同确实存在，但我们会遇到‘什么是琐罗亚斯德教’这个问题，我可不想让你为此头疼。

So this identity with Ahura Mazda, the great god of Zoroastrianism is certainly established, but we run into the problem of what Zoroastrianism is, I wouldn't give you a headache on that.

从第二位皇帝开始，我们看到了一种新宗教的支持，它似乎是各种基督教派别与地方仪式和崇拜信仰的混合体，这种宗教被称为摩尼教，你可能听说过，你的听众或许也知道。

From the second emperor, we have a support for a new religion which seems to be a hybrid of various Christian oriented cults mixed with various local ritualistic and cultic beliefs that gets the title of Manichaeism you might have heard of your listeners might know of.

这种宗教在西方被广泛宣传为圣奥古斯丁的原始信仰。

This is sort of popularized in the West as being the original religion of Saint Augustine.

圣奥古斯丁最初是摩尼教徒，后来改信基督教，并实际上写过反对摩尼教徒的作品。

Saint Augustine is originally a Manichaean then becomes a Christian and writes something against the Manichaeans actually.

因此，这种宗教在萨珊帝国中心的美索不达米亚地区诞生了。

So this religion comes to existence in the center of the Sassanian empire in Mesopotamia.

该宗教以先知曼尼命名，他来到沙普尔一世——阿尔达希尔一世之子、第二位萨珊皇帝的宫廷，并用中古波斯语撰写了一本书以示敬意，阐述了他的宗教信仰。似乎在沙普尔及其子霍尔木兹的统治期间，该宗教曾获得某种程度的王室保护。

The the Prophet Mani, after whom the religion is named, comes to the court of Shapur the first, the second Sassanian emperor, the son of Ardashir the first, and writes a book in his honor describing in Middle Persian, describing his religious beliefs and it seems that for at least the reign of Shapur and his son Hormuz the religion is given some sort of a royal protection.

我们不清楚曼尼教最初传播的范围有多广，但曼尼教最终在中亚一直延续到十一世纪，其影响远至西藏、中国西部和蒙古地区，那里曾存在一个帝国。与此同时，基督教在二三世纪开始传入，甚至早在二世纪初，伊朗就已经出现了基督教派别。

How widely it spreads initially we don't know Manichaeism eventually survives until the eleventh century in Central Asia and we have it going all the way to Tibet and you know Western China, Mongolia and there's an empire over there and then we obviously have Christianity that starts coming in in the second and third century and even towards the beginning of the second century, we already have Christianities in Iran.

因此，基督教的出现早于萨珊王朝的兴起。

So it predates the coming of the Sasanians.

曼尼本人深受各种基督教派别的影响。

Mani himself is very much influenced by various Christian cults.

甚至有推测认为，萨珊帝国境内的基督徒数量曾一度与罗马帝国境内的基督徒数量相当。

There is even speculation that at one point, there was as there were as many Christians in the Sassanian empire that were in the Roman empire.

直到今天，伊朗南部仍保留着那个时期的教堂遗迹。

We have churches in Southern Iran today, even from that period.

因此，基督教曾非常普及。

So Christianity is very widespread.

当然，也不能忘记犹太教，尤其是在美索不达米亚地区，犹太教非常广泛且流行。

And of course, not to forget Judaism, in particularly Mesopotamia is very widespread, quite popular.

因此，犹太教至少在帝国的西部地区非常重要，规模庞大。

And so Judaism was at least in the western part of the empire, important, very big.

所以从宗教角度看，这是一个非常非常有趣的帝国。

So actually religiously, it's a very, very interesting empire.

在许多方面，它比罗马帝国更加宽容，因为这些宗教似乎都没有一种宗教必须取代其他宗教的排他态度。

And in many senses, is much more tolerant than the Roman empire because all of these religions are actually, they seem not to have an attitude of supercession of religions that one religion has to dominate everything else.

与你在罗马皇帝狄奥多西之后看到的情况不同，萨珊王朝似乎并没有确立一种官方宗教的理念。

Unlike what you see, for example, after emperor Theodosius in Rome, there doesn't seem to be a Sausanian idea that there should be an official religion.

因此，尽管皇帝显然是琐罗亚斯德教徒，但他支持基督教教会，并迎娶了一位基督教皇后。

So while the emperor is obviously Zoroastrian, he supports the Christian church and marries a Christian queen.

看来他们对宗教信仰持更加开放的态度。

So it seems to be that they're much a lot more open towards religious beliefs.

是的。

Yeah.

令人着迷的是，这种多样性与宽容性如此显著，因为你可能会认为，一个高度集权的帝国会希望也控制宗教。

It's fascinating how diverse and tolerant it is because you would tend to think that a really centralizing empire is going to want to also control the religion.

如果琐罗亚斯德教是国教的话，我猜他们会尽可能地推行它。

And if Zoroastrianism is kind of the state religion, I guess, that they would be looking to to enforce that as much as they could.

但看起来他们并没有这样做。

But it seems like they're not.

我的意思是，这种宽容是吗？

I mean, is that kind of toleration?

这是琐罗亚斯德教的一部分吗？

Is that part of Zoroastrianism?

我对琐罗亚斯德教其实了解不多，所以我理解你不想给我们详细讲解这些信仰体系之类的。

I actually don't know too much about Zoroastrianism, so I understand you don't want to give us a big detailed breakdown of the belief systems and everything else.

但琐罗亚斯德教本身是一种特别宽容的宗教吗？

But is Zoroastrianism a particularly tolerant religion?

别怪自己。

Don't blame yourself.

没人对琐罗亚斯德教了解很多。

Nobody knows a lot about Zoroastrianism.

我是

I'm I

我知道这个名字。

know the name.

我知道琐罗亚斯德这个名字。

I I know the name Zoroastrian.

我以前见过这个名称。

I've come across it before.

是的。

Yeah.

但我对琐罗亚斯德教徒的信仰了解不多。

But I don't really know too much about what Zoroastrians believe.

在英国，这个术语可能更常被称为印度的帕西人。

In Britain, probably the term would be better known under the name Parsis of India.

所以英国有很多帕西人。

So we have a lot of Parsis in Britain.

帕西人会非常喜欢这一点，因为帕西人、祆教社群最具代表性的人物就是弗雷迪·默丘里。

Parsis would love it because the the biggest representative of the Parsis Parsis, Zoroastrian community is Freddie Mercury.

所以，你知道，弗雷迪·默丘里的宗教，这么说吧。

So, you know, Freddie Mercury's religion, let's say.

祆教本身似乎并不特别包容其他宗教，或许有一种观念认为，宗教属于特定人群，不同的人群拥有不同的宗教。

Zoroastrianism, I don't think is particularly itself tolerant of other religions, is that possibly there is an idea that religions belong to groups of people and that different groups of people have different religions.

如果这些人想要拥有这种宗教，那就意味着他们不是我们。

So if those people want to have that religion, it just means that they are not us.

因此，存在一种伊朗人或任何你所指的人与非人之间的区分，正如我所说，这种区分体现在他们的钱币上。

So there is this idea of Iranian or whatever you wanted, people and non people, which as I said, on their coins.

萨珊王朝自称是‘万王之王，天之子’。

Sausanias called themselves the king of kings of air and an air.

看来祆教是‘天’的宗教，而其他一切宗教都是‘非天’的宗教。

And it seems that the Zoroastrianism is the religion of air and everything else is a religion of an air.

所以，并不是祆教本身特别宽容。

So it's not that Zoroastrianism itself, it's very tolerant.

萨珊帝国皇帝自视为两者之王。

It's that the Sasangan emperors consider themselves the king of both.

而且它并不是一种传教性质的宗教。

And there is no it's not a a missionary.

它不是一种传教的宗教。

It's not an evangelizing religion.

它并不试图使任何人皈依。

It doesn't try to convert anybody.

在现代印度版本中，尤其是禁止他人皈依它。

Well, in modern Indian version of it, particularly, it's actually banned to convert to it.

你不能皈依它。

You can't convert to it.

它很像正统犹太教。

It's much like Orthodox Judaism.

它如今已演变为现代意义上的族群宗教。

It has become now an ethnoreligion in the modern sense.

我们并没有理由认为当时它是一种族裔宗教，这只意味着他们并不像罗马世界中我们所习惯的那样，将宗教与帝国概念紧密联系在一起。

There's no reason that we believe that it's an ethnoreligion back then, it but just means that they don't think of religion as that closely connected to the idea of the empire, the way we are used to in the Roman world.

这意味着在萨珊世界中，宗教的政治用途比我们所认为的帝国蓝图——而这种观念其实是错误的——要有限得多。

It just means that the political use of religion is much more limited in the Sasanian world than it is in what we what we think as the blueprint of empire which is wrong.

内战、弑君和克伦威尔共和国之后，君主制恢复了。

After civil war, regicide, and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned.

但英国再也回不到从前了。

But Britain would never be the same.

我是苏珊娜·利普科姆教授，本月在《不只是都铎》节目中，我们将回到复辟时代的王室，从查理二世到安妮女王，见证帝国的诞生。

I'm professor Susannah Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of restoration royalty from Charles the second to Queen Anne and the birth of the empire.

欢迎收听来自History Hit的《不只是都铎》，无论你在哪个平台听播客。

Join me on not just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

随着我们继续推进，你提到萨珊帝国在七世纪左右衰落。

As we move through, you've mentioned that the Sassanian Empire kind of falls in the seventh century.

因此，当我们接近这一时期时，将会有新的政治与宗教力量进入该地区。

So as we move towards that, there is going to be a new political and religious power move into the region.

在阿拉伯入侵前夕，萨珊帝国处于怎样的状态？

On verge of the Arab invasion, what kind of state is the Sassanian Empire in?

我们已经看到它具有很强的中央集权特征。

We've looked at it being quite centralizing.

我们还谈到它正处于扩张时期，鼎盛时覆盖了广大的地理区域。

We've talked about it being going through a period of expansion too and at its height covering this huge geographic area.

到七世纪时，它是正在衰落，还是实际上正处于其权力的巅峰？

Is it waning by the the seventh century or is it actually at the peak of its powers?

它正处于权力的巅峰，这正是它消亡的讽刺之处。

It is at the peak of its powers and that's the irony in its disappearance.

我解释它为何在巅峰时期崩溃的原因是，我们必须将萨珊王朝的覆灭与其所建立的帝国的灭亡区分开来。

My answer to why it falls in the peak of its power is that we have to separate the fall of the Sasanian dynastic rule separately as the fall of the empire they created.

我半开玩笑地称之为‘帝国超越了王朝’。

I semi humorously call it the empire outgrows the dynasty.

王朝已经尽了最大努力。

The dynasty has done its best.

帝国已经超越了王朝的管理能力。

The empire has now outgrown and the dynasty is incapable of managing the empire.

从各方面来看，帝国在伊斯兰崛起前夕似乎正处于鼎盛时期，因为在过去的几十年里，它的势力范围取得了惊人的扩张；而在此之前约四百年间，它一直以幼发拉底河为界，与罗马对峙。

The empire in by all means seems to be at the height of its power in the sense that right prior to the rise of Islam, it actually has had a couple of decades of amazing expansion of its power while for about four hundred years it has stayed at the other side of the Euphrates and has set up Euphrates as its border with Rome.

在那里，双方维持着一种均势：罗马人偶尔占领几座城市，萨珊人则反过来夺取几座城池。

And there is a sort of a status quo there where, you know, Romans come and take over a couple of cities here and the Sasanians go and take over a couple of cities over there.

一切还算平稳。

Things are okay.

但从六世纪初开始，萨珊人似乎发起了一场大规模的征服行动。

All of a sudden from the beginning of the sixth century, there seems to be on part of the Sasanians a grand effort to actually go and conquer.

在六世纪，萨珊皇帝甚至攻抵了东罗马帝国的重镇安条克。

In the sixth century, the Sassanian emperor actually reaches Antioch, the grand city of the Eastern Roman Empire.

他并非只是掠夺贡品后便撤退。

And he just doesn't go and extract tribute and go back.

他花时间逗留，前往海边，在地中海游泳，向太阳发泄不满，然后跨上马背，从容不迫地返回。

He actually takes his time, goes to the sea, swims in the Mediterranean, does frustration towards the sun, and then gets on his horse and very calmly comes back.

而罗马方面的记载告诉我们，这一过程并未伤害任何人。

And as the Roman sources tell us doesn't hurt anybody in the process.

对我来说，这象征着萨珊皇帝向罗马人宣告：我们现在已经到了。

And for me, this is a symbolic sort of Sassanian emperors telling the Romans, we are now here.

我们已经抵达了。

We have arrived.

萨珊人现在要来了，我们会来到这里。

The Sassanians are now we are gonna come here.

在6月10日至6月28日之间，他们真的到达了那里。

And then between 06/10 and 06/28, they actually get there.

他们实际上控制了整个东地中海地区。

They are actually controlling entire Eastern Mediterranean.

他们掌控了从现代安纳托利亚全境，一直延伸到君士坦丁堡城墙，再往南到达利比亚，整个东地中海如今都成了他们的领土。

They control anything from all of modern Anatolia, they reach the walls of Constantinople and down there they reach Libya And all of Eastern Mediterranean now becomes their territory.

帝国迅速扩张，皇帝霍斯劳二世，正是这位皇帝主导了这一切。

The empire very quickly, the emperor Khodad the second, the one who actually does this.

是的。

Yes.

在6月28日，他被宫廷政变推翻，他在美索不达米亚北部的军队在几场战役中败给皇帝希拉克略，这引发了一系列连锁反应，导致皇帝被废黜，王朝陷入巨大混乱。

In 06/28 is defeated basically is removed through a coup d'etat in his court and his troops in Northern Mesopotamia lose a couple of battles to emperor Heraclius which causes this domino effect of removal of the emperor which causes a lot of chaos in the dynasty.

三年内换了五位皇帝，你知道，事情开始分崩离析。

You have replacement of five emperors within, like, three years, you know, things start falling apart.

但在他去世不到十年后，穆斯林就已经抵达了。

But less than ten years after the man's death, Muslims are there.

他们占领了泰西封。

They have taken over Ctesiphon.

他们已经夺取了他此前征服的几乎全部领土。

They have taken over now pretty much everything that he conquered.

他们直接接管了他的帝国。

They just take over his empire.

他曾经征服的地区，如今穆斯林已控制了东地中海和埃及，并正向君士坦丁堡的城墙推进。

The one he conquered, the Muslims are now in Eastern Mediterranean and Egypt and are pushing against the walls of Constantinople.

所以，他十年前所做的事，在他死后十年到十五年内再次重演。

So exactly what he was doing ten years ago gets repeated within ten, fifteen years after his death.

因此，从某种意义上说，萨珊王朝在七世纪释放的力量，其根源可追溯至六世纪，最终在穆斯林手中达到顶峰。

So in a sense, you could say that the power that the Sausanians sort of unleash in the seventh century with its roots in the sixth century really comes to culmination under the Muslim.

所以我非常支持将伊斯兰征服置于此前的萨珊征服背景中看待，将它们视为始于610年的整体进程。

So I'm very much of a fan of putting the Islamic conquests in context of the Sasanian conquest that preceded it and see them as a collective effort that starts in 06/10.

因此，从某种意义上说，这或许颇具讽刺意味：伊斯兰征服始于610年，我甚至开玩笑地称霍斯劳二世为第一位穆斯林哈里发。

So in a sense, you could say could be ironic and say that Islamic conquest starts in 06/10, and I jokingly have called Khodad the second the first Muslim caliph.

正是他真正开启了这一切。

He is the one who really starts this whole thing.

但此时，它正处于鼎盛时期。

But, it's at the height of its power.

没有任何等待。

There is no waiting.

事实上，国库似乎是满的。

There seems to be actually the treasury is full.

士兵们就在那里。

The soldiers are there.

一切进展顺利。

Everything is happening well.

没什么真正出错的地方。

Nothing is nothing is really wrong.

它引发这一切这一事实，说明了后来所有征服背后的动力，这让我觉得事情还算顺利。

And the fact that it causes this is the impetus behind all of this later conquest tells me that things are okay.

只是这个王朝本身根本不好，

It's just that the dynasty is not very okay at all,

而且已经灭亡了。

and it's gone.

当穆斯林，阿拉伯穆斯林开始到来时，尽管萨珊帝国看似强大，他们是否轻易就接管了它？

And when the Muslims begin to arrive, the Arab Muslims begin to arrive, is it easy for them to take over the Sassanian Empire despite its kind of strength?

还是说这是一个比这更渐进的过程？

Or is it a more gradual process than that?

美索不达米亚非常容易。

Mesopotamia is very easy.

看起来非常容易。

It seems to be very easy.

所以美索不达米亚，以及他们征服的其他地区。

So Mesopotamia and then the rest of these areas that they have conquered.

因此，大叙利亚和埃及等地的占领进展得非常迅速。

So the greater Syria and Egypt and so this goes very quickly.

到六月时，最后一位萨珊皇帝亚兹德格德三世不得不在如今的伊朗西部地区与穆斯林开战。

So by June, the Sassanian emperor, remaining Sassanian emperor, Yazgur the third, has to put up a fight against the Muslims in what is essentially now Western Iran in June.

因此，在他祖父被杀十四年后，登基仅仅九年，他就已经在伊朗西部被迫迎战。

So what fourteen years after his grandfather was killed, only nine years after he supposedly ascends the throne, he has to put up a fight already in Western Iran.

美索不达米亚，萨珊帝国的首都，这片地区在中古波斯语中被称为伊朗帝国的心脏。

So Mesopotamia, the capital of the Sassanian empire, the area of Mesopotamia in middle Persian is called the heart of the empire of Iran.

伊朗帝国的心脏地带，也就是泰西封这座都城，迅速沦陷了。

So the heart of the empire of Iran, that capital city of Tassifon, that area falls very quickly.

征服其余地区大约花费了一个世纪。

The conquest of the rest takes about a century.

因此，穆斯林直到八世纪初才真正抵达萨珊帝国本身在奥克苏斯地区的边界。

So Muslims really reach the borders of Sasanian Empire itself in the Oxus region only in the early eighth century.

是的。

Yeah.

在这一过程中，纳哈万德战役有多重要？

And how significant in that process is the battle of Nahavan?

我们有这场标志性战役。

We have this this set piece battle.

那是一个转折点吗？

Is that a turning point?

纳哈万德很有趣。

Nahavan is interesting.

通常，霍达迪西耶被称为转折点，因为那是阿拉伯穆斯林首次据说击败了萨珊大军。

Usually, Khodadisiyah is called the turning point because that's the first time that supposedly Arab Muslims managed to defeat a Sasanian grand army.

但这更像是后世历史学家的一种文学创作。

But that seems to be a lot more of a literary creation of later historians.

而拉马丹地区是阿拉伯穆斯林首次正面迎战萨珊军队、征服他们，并开始威胁萨珊帝国中心的地方。

And Ramadan itself is the place where Arab Muslims have now faced the Sasanian troops, are conquering them, and are now threatening the center of the Sasanian empire.

因此，从士气层面来看，这场战役意义重大。

So it is significant very much in, I would say, morale way.

对萨珊人来说，正是在这里，他们才真正意识到自己正在被征服。

For the Sassanids, this is when they actually are they real they realize they are being conquered.

在此之前，他们或许还可能认为这不过是某种区域性的劫掠或冲突。

Before this, they probably could have thought of this as some sort of a regional raid or conflict.

不，不行。

Here is no, oh, no.

我们正在遭受攻击。

We are being attacked.

我们真的正在被征服。

We are actually being conquered.

从这个意义上说，这非常重要。

So in that sense, it is very important.

因此，那些成功击败萨珊帝国的阿拉伯穆斯林，很可能继承了这种中央集权的政府和权威。

And presumably then the Arab Muslims that arrive having managed to break the power of the Sassanian empire, they acquire this kind of centralized government and authority.

这是否使过程变得相当顺利？

Does that make it fairly smooth?

因为与琐罗亚斯德教不同，他们打算将该地区皈依伊斯兰教。

Because unlike Zoroastrianism, they are going to look to convert the area to Islam.

这种中央集权的政府是否使萨珊领土上的皈依过程平稳而一致？

Is that process made smooth and even across the Sassanian lands by this kind of centralized government?

还是我们看到该地区伊斯兰化过程中出现了大量抵抗？

Or do we see lots of resistance to the the Islamization of the region?

这是一个很难回答的问题。

That's a very sort of hard question to answer.

我们其实并不清楚大多数人口何时皈依伊斯兰教，但几乎可以肯定的是，这并不是在穆斯林刚进入时就发生的。

We don't really know when the majority of the population converts to Islam, but it's almost certain that it's not as the Muslims come in.

一般来说，我们所了解的图景主要基于后来的叙事性资料，因为需要注意的是，我们所拥有的伊斯兰征服叙事往往是在事件发生一百五十年到两百年，甚至更久之后才写成的。

Generally, the picture we have which is based on mostly later narrative sources because you have to notice that the narratives of Islamic conquest that we have often come from things that were written between one hundred and fifty to two hundred and even more years later than the events.

如果世界历史中有一个令人惊讶的事实，那就是七世纪是一个我们几乎拥有编码、几乎拥有现代书籍的时代，但我们对征服过程的记载却非常少，或者我们之前没有注意到，因为我们一直在不断谈论。

If among the surprising facts of world history is that seventh century is the time that, you know, we almost have codec, we have modern books almost, but we have very little about the conquest or we have had little that we have noticed because we keep on talking.

这是史学的偏见。

This is the bias of historiography.

我们通过自己熟悉的语言来阅读历史。

We read history through the languages we know.

到目前为止，我们一直阅读的是拉丁语、希腊语和阿拉伯语，也许还有波斯语。

So so far we have been reading Latin, Greek and Arabic and maybe Persian.

而这些资料通常对七世纪的记载都不够充分。

And these sources generally did not reflect enough about the seventh century.

现在我们有了叙利亚语资料、亚美尼亚语资料，我们正在越来越多地了解这些材料。

Now we have Syriac sources, we have Armenian sources and all of these things that we are learning more about them.

现在我们还拥有了中古波斯语的原始文献，例如来自伊朗中部和北部的文献，我们仍在研读，因为这是中古波斯语，也许我们应该专门探讨一下这个问题。

And now we have primary middle Persian documents, for example, from Central Iran and from Northern Iran, which we're still reading because what it's middle Persian, maybe we should have an excursus into that.

中古波斯语的书写方式太糟糕了，文字系统极其难读。

What a horrible writing, terrible writing system middle Persian has makes it really hard to read.

因此，我们对这些事情的了解更少。

So we knew less about all of these things.

征服的过程尚未被充分理解。

So the process of conquest is ill understood.

我们有关于军事征服的传说，但对它的文化、经济、社会等其他方面几乎一无所知。

We have tales of military conquest, but we know really little about its cultural, its economic, its social, you know any other aspect of it.

即使在政治层面，它也鲜为人知。

Even politically it is little understood.

通常我们认为，皈依发生在伊斯兰统治的第三个世纪，也就是公元九世纪。

Generally we think that the conversions happen about the third century of Islamic rule so in the ninth century of the common era.

因此，早期的情况并非如此：穆斯林军队入侵、征服，随后所有人便纷纷改信伊斯兰教。

So coming in early on, it's not like that Muslim armies come in conquer and then behind them everybody is converting to Islam.

甚至连他们自己都没有做出这样的主张。

Even they don't make these claims.

他们说，我们抵达城市时，会提出和平条件：接受我们、安置我们、不要从背后攻击我们，并向我们缴纳贡品，这样我们就不会打扰你们；否则就与我们开战，如果我们征服了你们，我们会俘虏你们，榨取你们所有的钱财，并强迫你们改信伊斯兰教。

They say that we arrive at cities, we offer terms of peace, which is often accept us, quarter us, don't attack us from the back and pay us tribute and we leave you alone or fight us and if we conquer you, we are going to take you prisoners, extract whatever money we want and force you to convert to Islam.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你知道，就连他们自己也不声称他们将所有人都绝对地转化为伊斯兰教徒。

So, you know, even they don't claim that they are converting everybody absolutely to Islam.

但我们确实知道，他们并没有这么做。

But we certainly know that they didn't.

他们也做不到。

They couldn't.

伊斯兰教本身并不是这样——尽管后来的文献描绘了截然不同的形象，但早期的伊斯兰教显然并非多数人的宗教。

It's not it's not Islam, despite the picture that obviously later sources give of it, obviously, the beginning is not an religion of the majority.

关于它是否将自己理解为一种统一集中的宗教，还存在巨大争议。

There's an entire controversy about if it understands itself as a common centralized religion even.

所以，仅需指出的是，早期几乎没有证据表明穆斯林到来后，所有人都成了穆斯林。

So just to be said that early on, there is little evidence to think that Muslims come in and everybody becomes Muslim.

你必须考虑到，在穆斯林国家，皈依过程从未完全完成，因为这些国家至今仍存在原生的非穆斯林群体。

And you have to consider that in the Muslim countries, the process of con conversion is never complete because there are still native non Muslims in the Muslim countries.

伊朗仍有琐罗亚斯德教徒居住。

We have Zoroastrians living in Iran.

巴勒斯坦有原生的基督徒。

We have native Christians in Palestine.

埃及有原生的基督徒。

We have native Christians in Egypt.

摩洛哥有原生的犹太人，而且几十年前，整个中东地区几乎到处都有犹太人；伊朗也有原生的犹太人，伊拉克南部有原生的曼达教徒，伊拉克北部有原生的雅兹迪人，还有各种各样的群体——有趣的是，伊斯兰教并没有让所有原生的罗马异教徒消失。

We have native Jews in Morocco and, you know, up to a few decades ago everywhere else in The Middle East and we have native Jews in Iran, we have native Mandaeans in Southern Iraq, we have native Yazidis in Northern Iraq, we have you know all sorts of so interestingly enough Islam doesn't become a religion that is there are no native Roman pagans remaining.

甚至连原生的立陶宛异教徒也不存在了，而立陶宛人直到七百年前才皈依基督教。

There are not even any native Lithuanian pagans remaining, and Lithuanians converted to Christianity only seven hundred years ago.

但基督教是一种取代性宗教。

But Christianity is a supersessionist religion.

当你去到某个地方并成为信徒时，所有人都会变成基督徒。

When you go somewhere and you become thingy, everybody becomes Christian.

对吧？

Right?

欧洲已经没有任何原住民了。

There are no native anything left in Europe.

但中东各地仍存在原生宗教。

But there are native religions all over Middle East.

我也不太清楚。

Even I don't know.

直到五十年前，布哈拉（乌兹别克斯坦）还有犹太人居住。

There were Jews living in Bukhara until fifty years ago in Uzbekistan.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们到处都有。

They are all around.

所以某种程度上，可以说伊斯兰教从未完全同化被征服的人群。

So in a sense, you could say that Islam never completely converse the conquered population.

但就宗教而言，我认为我们必须非常谨慎。

But so as far as religion goes, I would say that we have to be very careful.

至于抵抗方面，同样地，这一过程仍不被充分理解。

As far as resistance goes though, again, the process is ill understood.

但根据这些文献，我们可以说，在伊朗核心地带，即美索不达米亚地区，这一过程似乎进行得相当顺利。

But yes, from these documents, we can say that it seems like that in that center, that heart of Iran chart, in that Mesopotamia, it goes pretty smoothly.

当他们进入伊朗境内时，实际上并没有统一的模式。

When they get inside Iran, it's really there is no uniform pattern.

存在抵抗。

There is resistance.

也有合作。

There is cooperation.

在中伊朗地区，似乎存在合作。

In Central Iran, it seems to be that there is a cooperation.

在东部，抵抗非常强烈，有趣的是，早期的穆斯林从未进入过阿富汗。

In the East, there is great resistance in the way that the east reverend reverend, you know, interestingly enough, early Muslims never get into Afghanistan.

你知道，我们现在想到塔利班，但阿富汗实际上是抵抗时间最长的地区。

You know, we now think of Taliban, but Afghanistan is actually the area that resists the longest.

阿富汗真正被征服并皈依伊斯兰教是在十世纪。

Afghanistan really gets conquered and converted to Islam in the tenth century.

实际上，是通过邻近伊朗边境的地方势力完成的，一位名叫亚古布·伊莱斯的中世纪伊朗统治者征服了喀布尔，推翻了当地的印度教沙希王朝——喀布尔的印度教国王，并使当地人皈依伊斯兰教。

And actually by the local powers, like people just across the border near Iran And a medieval Iranian ruler called Yaghub Elais is the guy who actually conquers Kabul and removes the local Hindu Shahi, the Hindu kings of Kabul, and converts the locals to Islam.

对吧？

Right?

所以在东部，似乎伊斯兰教的传播从未超出现代伊朗和阿富汗的边界。

So like in the East, there seems to be like it really doesn't go beyond the borders of modern Iran and Afghanistan.

在伊朗北部，由于阿尔布尔兹山脉和里海南部地区的地理条件，他们从未成功征服。

In the North Of Iran, they never managed to conquer because of the geography of the Algurs Range, Southern Caspian region.

穆斯林从未能翻越山脉到达另一边并使当地人皈依。

Muslims never managed to pass the mountains and go to the other side and convert people.

北部地区人们的皈依是通过完全不同的机制实现的，甚至皈依了另一种伊斯兰教派——你知道的，不是主流的正统伊斯兰教。

And the conversion of the people in the North really happens through completely different dynamics and even to another version of Islam, you know, not the majority Orthodox Islam even.

所以存在抵抗。

So there is resistance.

亚美尼亚人显然从未被征服，尽管他们属于帝国的一部分。

Armenians obviously never conquered despite the fact that they are part of the empire.

存在抵抗。

There is resistance.

存在地方性的抵抗。

There is local resistance.

同时也存在地方性的合作，这是一种渐进的政治过程，某种意义上的渗透。

There is local cooperation, gradual political, I would say, process of osmosis in a sense.

最终，当地人加入了一个更大的权力体系，同意缴纳贡赋，同意各种和平条约，从而成为伟大的伊斯兰历史学家马歇尔所称的‘伊斯兰世界’的一部分。

And then at the end is just the locals joining a greater power, agreeing to pay tribute, agreeing into various peace treaties that makes them part of what the great Islamic historian Marshall has called the Islamicates world.

因此，我们不应当将这一过程视为持续不断的征服。

So we shouldn't think of this as a process of constant conquest.

征服、抵抗、合作，以及征服进程的完全停止。

Conquest, resistance, cooperation, complete stopping of the process of conquest.

所有这些都属于我们所讨论的这个游戏的一部分。

All of these are parts of the game that we are talking about.

内战、弑君和克伦威尔共和国之后，君主制复辟了。

After civil war, regicide, and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned.

但英国再也回不到从前了。

But Britain would never be the same.

我是苏珊娜·利普科姆教授，本期《不只都铎》将带您回到复辟时代的王室，从查理二世到安妮女王，见证帝国的诞生。

I'm professor Susannah Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of restoration royalty from Charles the second to Queen Anne and the birth of the empire.

欢迎收听来自History Hit的《不只都铎》，无论你在哪个平台收听播客。

Join me on not just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

我认为，如果我们观察今天的现代伊朗，会看到一个国家——尽管阿拉伯语在其他大多数地方变得无处不在，伊朗却依然保持了自己的语言，保留了波斯语，以及大量与琐罗亚斯德教等相关的故事和联系。

I think if we look at modern Iran today, we can see a country there that, you know, despite the fact that Arabic becomes ubiquitous in most other places, Iran is a place that maintains its language, that retains Persian and retains an awful lot of its stories and its connections to Zoroastrianism and things like that.

所以我想知道，你是否认为波斯或波斯社会经历了一种伊斯兰化的过程，还是当伊斯兰教传入时，反而被波斯文化所影响了？

So I wonder whether you feel that it's a case that Persia undergoes or Persian society undergoes a form of Islamization or does actually Islam undergo a bit of Persianization when it arrives there?

我喜欢这个问题，这是一个非常聪明的问题。

I love this question and it's a very smart question.