克莱尔·丹妮斯

你发现自己像是，我的意思是，我们认识彼此，但并不真正了解对方。

you find yourself to be like a I mean, we know each other, but we don't know know each other.

而且我有幸经常和你在一起，非常欣赏你的作品，我。

And I've had the pleasure of being around you a lot a lot, and a humongous fan of your work, I of

那样的。

like that.

谢谢。

And thank you.

我们非常高兴你今天答应了。

And we were very excited that you said yes today.

你觉得你是个有条理的人吗？

And do you think you're a organized person?

比如，你是个有条理的

Like, you an organized

随着时间推移，我变得更有条理了。

I've gotten much more organized over time.

但我真的很喜欢容器商店。

But I do love The Container Store.

我爱容器商店。

I love The Container Store

太喜欢了。

so much.

一个好的收纳盒能改变你的生活。

A good container will change your life.

珍娜，为什么

Jenna, why

珍娜，你为什么笑？

are you laughing, Jenna?

你为什么笑得这么厉害？

Why are you laughing so hard?

而且，我特别喜欢思考这些东西在你生活中意味着什么？

But, and what I love about the when when I love the idea of figuring out what things what are what do things mean to you in your life?

因为这其实是个悖论。

Because they actually it's a paradox.

是的。

Yeah.

它们本身没有意义，却又意义重大。

They don't mean anything, and they mean a lot.

它们可以成为非常有价值的工具，我认为它们确实承载着能量。

They can be really valuable tools, and I think they do carry energy.

我是真的这么相信的。

Like, I really do believe that.

它们能带你穿越。

And they can transport you.

它们可以

They can

成为小小的时光机。

be little tiny time machines.

是的。

Yes.

但好吧。

But okay.

当然，你是个组织者。

Of course, you're an organizer.

当然，你是处女座。

Of course, you're Virgo.

当然，你是白羊座。

Of course, you're Aries.

当然，你是八号。

Of course, you're an eight.

克莱尔·丹妮斯在这里。

Claire Danes is here.

我的意思是，克莱尔，如果我之前还不爱你的话。

I mean, Claire, if I did not love you already.

我的意思是，我觉得今天的主题是，我一直觉得你和你的作品都走在了时代的前列。

I mean, the theme of I feel like the theme of today is I've always felt like you and your work were ahead of its time.

这真是太好了。

That's very nice.

这真是太、太好了。

That's very, very nice.

你一直让我这位艺术家进入了一些我从未意识到自己已经准备好的世界。

You've always brought me as an artist into worlds that I didn't know I was ready for.

你是一个充满求知欲的人，对有趣的事物感兴趣，因此你自然而然地被这些事物吸引，就像卡通人物看到窗台上的派一样。

You're an intellectually curious person who's interested in interesting things, and therefore you kind of, you're drawn to those things almost like, you know, like the cartoon character when the pie's on the windowsill.

我觉得和你在一起就是这样。

Like, I feel that with you.

你总是被有趣的事物吸引。

You're drawn to interesting things.

我是的。

I am.

确实如此。

That's true.

谢谢你这么说。

Thank you for saying that.

你这样说真的非常感人且有意义。

That's actually very, very touching and meaningful that you say that, really.

我能从你作为艺术家所做的选择中感受到这一点。

Well, I can sense it from the choices you made as an artist.

就像《我的人生》《国土安全》《坦普尔·葛兰汀》和《我体内的野兽》这些作品，你总是引领我们进入一些新的领域，对你自己而言也是如此，这非常令人兴奋。

And, you know, it is like My So Called Life and Homeland and Temple Grandin and The Beast in Me, like all these projects and the way you you're kind of leading us into some new territory always, it feels like, and new territory for you too, which is very exciting.

当然，你是九型人格中的八号挑战者，你太棒了。

Of course, you're an Enneagram eight year challenger, you're incredible.

但不好意思，我们是最好的，但我们就是。

But we're I'm sorry that we're the best, but we are.

也向其他所有数字道歉。

And I'm sorry to all the other numbers.

但就像，我真的想说，当我们终于开始这件事时，你作为演员有能力保持在自己的身体里，同时活在自己的头脑中。

But but like it and and I just wanna say this as we, like, or as we get this this thing started finally, which is you have the ability to, as an actor, to stay in your body and be in your brain.

这两件事都很难做到。

Those are two very hard things to do.

这真是太好了。

This is so nice.

克莱尔，你真是

Claire, you're

太聪明了。

so smart.

这真是太好了。

This is so nice.

这真是太好了。

This is so nice.

但你真是

But you're

但要平衡身体和大脑这两件事很难。

like But it's hard to balance those two things, body and brain.

这就是为什么我对你热爱跳舞这件事如此着迷。

And I that's why I'm obsessed with the fact that you love to dance.

我确实喜欢跳舞。

I do love to dance.

我爱跳舞。

I love to dance.

我也是。

Me too.

对我来说，跳舞能让我释放出来，是的。

And for me, it gets me out Yeah.

我的

My

是的。

Yeah.

哎呀，真巧。

Jinx.

是的。

Yes.

我跳舞的次数没有以前多了，现在跳得不够了。

And I don't dance as much as I I don't dance enough anymore.

前几天晚上，我一个人在浴室里好好跳了一番。

I had a good wiggle the other night all by myself in my bathroom.

我真的需要这样放松一下。

I really needed it.

对。

Yeah.

我最常看到你的地方，大概就是舞池了。

And that's where I've seen you probably the most is on the dance floor.

对。

Yeah.

我们朋友拉希达是个非常棒的舞者。

Well, where our friend Rashida is a pretty great dancer.

她办过一些派对，我们曾一起穿着睡衣跳舞。

She's had some parties, and we've danced in our pajamas together.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得在一些颁奖典礼上，我们也曾在舞池里跳过，那种舞蹈真的让人沉浸其中。

And I feel like there's there's been some award shows where we've been on the floor, like where dancing regulates.

它对你有什么作用？

What does it do for you?

它对你的身体有什么影响？

How does it what does it do for your body?

天啊。

Oh god.

这太搞笑了。

It's so funny.

嗯，因为今天是我儿子的生日。

I well, because it's my son's birthday today.

我大儿子刚满13岁，这对我来说就像一种超能力。

My eldest son, he's turned 13, and it's like a superpower I have.

我只是在公共场合稍微晃动一下。

I to just like a little tiny wiggle in public.

他会穿过街道。

He's he will cross the street.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

只是，没错。

It's just but yes.

我能在一瞬间让他尴尬到极点。

I could mortify him within a millisecond.

嗯。

Mhmm.

更糟的是，你还会停下来，说：我是个很棒的舞者。

And even worse is you stop and go, I'm a good dancer.

人们以为我是个很棒的舞者。

People think I'm a good dancer.

他们就会说：妈妈，求你了。

And they're like, mom, please.

天哪。

Oh my god.

妈妈。

Mom.

妈妈。

Mom.

大家都在看你跳舞。

Everyone's watching your dance.

是的。

Yeah.

但这对我有什么好处呢？

But what does it do for me?

我的意思是，最好的状态就是你进入那种心流状态。

Well, I mean, the best is when you enter that like flow state.

当你——

When you yeah.

当那种状态下，你完全不需要思考，只是与通过耳朵传入的任何声音完全同步。

When it's when it's there's no thought and you're just totally synchronized with whatever sound is coming into, you know, through your ears.

我喜欢看幼儿跳舞。

I love watching toddlers dance.

你知道的，当他们跳起来时，会做那个动作。

You know, when they jump, they do that thing.

他们会做那种弹跳的动作。

They do the bouncing thing.

这确实没错。

That's so true.

是的。

Yeah.

他们都

They all

我们都这样。

we all do it.

而且，谢伊，我的宝贝，她总是沉浸在自己的世界里，很梦幻，有时候会跳这种舞。

And, Shay, my my baby, she had she's very kind of in her head and dreamy, and sometimes she'll do this kind of dance.

我觉得这太棒了。

I'm like, that's so fabulous.

Anyway，她多大了？

Anyway How old is she?

她两岁半。

She's two and a half.

是的。

Yeah.

我听说了一件很神奇的事，就是三岁到四岁或三岁到五岁的孩子，就像吃了迷幻蘑菇一样，他们觉得地板是熔岩。

I heard something that's amazing, which is that kids from three like, from three to four or three to five are consider them, like, on mushrooms, like hallucinogenic mushrooms because they're like, the floor is lava.

而且，我能感受到音乐。

And like, I'm feeling the music.

他们会问：为什么我们会死？

And they're like, why do we die?

而你呢

And you're

哇哦。

like, woah.

你正在幻觉中。

You're tripping.

那个年龄段确实如此。

And it's so true that age.

没错。

True.

她真的很有意思。

She's really fun.

哦，你真是个舞者。

Oh, you're a real dancer.

但可不是那种受过正规训练的舞者。

Well, but never not like a formally trained one.

我在这里的城市遇到一位很棒的老师，名叫艾伦·罗宾斯。

I had this amazing teacher here in the city, a woman named Ellen Robbins.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她非常出色。

And she was great.

从四岁开始，我就一直跟她学习。

And I like for I from the age of four on, I worked with her.

我这么说是有意的。

I say that, like, intentionally.

听起来很荒谬，因为我当时是个小孩子，但她真的非常认真地对待每一个孩子。

It sounds ridiculous because I was a tiny human, but she really took every kid very seriously.

在一年的时间里，你会逐步创作属于自己的舞蹈作品，并自行选择主题和音乐。

And over the course of year, you would work towards choreographing your own piece, and you would choose the theme and and the music.

有一年，我扮演了一只飞蛾扑火。

And I was a moth to flame one year.

是的。

Yes.

我确实是。

I was.

那种情况很多。

There was a lot of it.

非常多，非常多那种情况。

A lot of a lot of that.

收拢、再展开，找到自己的光芒。

Closing up and opening again and finding your light.

做。

Do.

四岁时在舞蹈课上的小克莱尔。

Little Claire in dance class at four.

你是个纽约孩子。

You are a New York kid.

是的。

Yes.

我真的很感兴趣那些在纽约长大的孩子。

I'm I'm really always interested in kids that grew up in New York.

对。

Yeah.

索霍区当时是什么样子？你小时候在纽约的版本是什么？

What was Soho, what was your version of little kid in New

很酷。

It was funky.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道的，有点粗犷。

And, you know, a little rough.

是的。

Yeah.

我出生于1979年。

I was born in '79.

我的父母是艺术家。

My parents were artists.

他们在六十年代末搬到了鲍厄里街。

They moved to the Bowery in the late sixties.

我父亲的母亲，克莱尔，也就是我名字的由来，在他还是孩子时就去世了。

And my dad my dad's mom, Claire, who I'm named after, died when he was a kid.

然后我想他终于有了这笔钱，于是和另一对夫妇一起买下了一栋楼，那栋楼至今仍归他们所有，位于克罗斯比街，我就在那里长大。

And then I guess he he kind of had this money finally that, and they bought a loft building with another couple that they still own on Crosby Street where I was growing up.

所以呢，我们有一个秋千。

So it was you know, we had a swing.

我们还有一个单杠。

We had a trapeze.

我会滑旱冰。

I would roller skate.

你知道的？

You know?

是

Was

这有点像我们想象中的样子

It's kind of how we picture It

就像一个溜冰场。

was like a roller rink.

生活着。

Be living.

我对此也感到有些羞愧，我有一些住在郊区的表亲，我只想要住在环形巷里，有个地下室，地板上铺着地毯。

I had some shame about it too, and I had cousins who lived in the suburbs, and all I wanted was to be in a cul de sac and have, like, a basement and carpet on the floor.

我们在小时候就想要这些。

And get that when we're little.

我们不想显得与众不同、有趣。

We don't wanna be different interesting.

我们只想和别人完全一样。

We wanna be exactly the same.

但你知道，那也很酷，因为巴斯奎特就住在我们的楼里，是的。

But it, you know, it was it was it was also very cool and, you know, Basquiat lived in our building and, you know, like, yes.

你见过他吗？

Like Did you meet him?

我记得他。

I I remember him.

我记得自己还很小的时候，他为人非常友善。

I remember being really little and he, you know, he was kinda he was very sweet.

他非常

Like he was very

有魅力？

Charming?

有魅力而且

Charming and

有点温柔。

kind of tender.

这就是我对他在电梯里的印象。

That's what I remember about him in the elevator.

哇。

Wow.

那段时间到处都能听到，是的。

That's hearing was just around and yeah.

但那时候也很暴力，黑手党依然存在。

But there was it was also violent and the mafia still existed.

所以我们当时在克罗斯比和王子街，就在拉斐特街的另一边，那是一个完全不同的世界，感觉非常活跃。

So we were on Crosby And Prince, so just on the other side of Lafayette, that was the different world and felt quite active.

而且

And

你当时变得很警觉吗？你是个警觉的人，还是个警觉的孩子？因为

Did you become a vigilant are you a vigilant person or a vigilant kid because

其中一个是

On of the

街道上？

street?

没有。

No.

就像，是的。

In Like Yeah.

因为那样，你是否变得过度警觉？

Was there some hypervigilance that was created because of that?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Mhmm.

因为纽约。

Because of New York.

而且我也有很多，比如，

And also I have very, like,

古怪又随性的艺术家父母。

funky Groovy artist parents.

父母。

Parents.

完全如此。

Totally.

所以当时形成了一种刻板性。

So I there was a rigidity that developed.

是的。

Yes.

说的正是我的话。

Speaking my language.

是的。

Yes.

还有一种极度敏锐的观察力。

And, like a hyper observance.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

For sure.

所以你去看了《法律与秩序》，作为一个年轻人，说到警觉和极度敏锐的观察力。

And so you go and speaking of vigilance and hyper observance, you were on law and order as a young person.

我是。

I was.

你当时多大？

How old were

吗？

you?

我12岁。

I was 12.

你能

Can you

告诉我关于确信的事吗？

tell me about Sure.

我扮演过少年杀手。

I played teenage murderer.

太棒了。

Was amazing.

那太棒了。

It was amazing.

我扮演了一个少年杀手。

And I played a teenage murderer.

是的。

Yeah.

我妈妈是一名高端妓女，她的皮条客一直在培养我做同样的事，但他却把自己包装成一名模特经纪人。

My mom was a prostitute, like high end, and her pimp was grooming me to basically do the same thing, but he was kind of presenting himself as modeling agent.

他拍了一些我的照片。

And he was, you know, and he took these photos of me.

典型的法律与秩序，轻松题材。

Typical law and order, light fare.

我妈妈发现了这件事，她介入并阻止了，我当时非常愤怒。

And my mom found out about it, and she inter you know, intercepted, and I was furious.

我从暗房里拿了剪刀，刺了他。

And I took the scissors from the dark room and stabbed him.

我想那就是当时的情况。

I think that's what it was.

天啊。

God.

我真希望能成为那样的连环杀手，我太想这么做了。

I would have killed to have been that was what I wanted to do so bad is be a team murderer.

是的。

Yeah.

在《法律与秩序》里。

On Law and Order.

然后我和另一个男孩约会，他也是个小孩演员。

I then dated a boy by another guy, a kid, another kid actor.

我们在试镜时认识了，他也曾在《法律与秩序》里演过少年杀手

We met an audition who also had been a teen murderer on Law

和秩序。

and Order.

那

That

这就像我们的甜蜜故事。

was like our cute story.

现在休也在《法律与秩序》里了。

And now Hugh is on Law and Order.

我知道。

I know.

这太疯狂了。

Which is wild.

我知道。

I know.

我们有很多很好的周边商品，比如《法律与秩序》的纪念品。

And we have so much good, like, gear, like swag, Law and Order swag.

我们有一个很大的徽章，孩子们特别喜欢，但有时候我们得藏起来。

We have a giant button that goes that that the kids really, really like, and we do have to hide sometimes.

但是

But

嗯，这个剧首先就雇佣了这么多演员。

Well, that show is and it's just in first of all, it just employed so many actors.

而且至今仍在继续。

So and still does.

它完全是个制片巨头。

It's a total producer.

播出后的第二天，还举办了一场放映派对。

Was also very sure the day after it aired, there was, like, a screening party.

那会儿我觉得坐地铁会很麻烦，因为我得做些事情。

It was That, like, it was gonna be a problem for me to ride the subway, like, because I was gonna do some things.

但其实没什么问题。

And it was fine.

大家都挺好的。

Everybody was fine.

每个人都不是。

Everyone was No.

对我来说，还是挺舒服的。

It was it was pretty comfortable, still for me.

你提到了《人生》这部剧。

You brought up Mentico called Life.

你 audition 那部剧的时候多大？

When how old were you when you auditioned for that?

我拍试播集的时候13岁。

I was 13 when I did the pilot.

天啊。

Dang.

然后它没被选中。

And I was and then it didn't get picked up.

是的。

Yeah.

我一辈子都上公立学校，但后来靠这些演戏工作赚了钱，就能负担得起送自己去私立学校。

And I'd gone to public school my whole life, but then like had made money from these acting jobs and, could afford to send myself to private school.

所以我去了道尔顿学校。

So I went to Dalton.

但没错。

And but yeah.

就在我的新生学年开始时，我们接到一个电话，说：‘哦，不。’

Then but in, like, the very start of my freshman year, we got this call saying, oh, no.

他们决定要拍这部剧了。

They are going to pick it up.

所以我只在那里上了半个学期，然后我们就去了洛杉矶。

So I was only physically there for a semester, and then we were off to LA.

哇。

Wow.

从那时起，我就主要是接受家教辅导。

And was kinda tutored from that point on.

现在，我知道你已经反复谈过拍那部剧的经历了，但那部剧至今依然极具时代精神。

Now, I mean, I know you've talked ad nauseam about the experience you had making that show, and it is still so zeitgeisty, that show.

那确实是一件非常特别的事情。

It's really it was a very special thing.

当你在拍摄时，感觉它就像一件闪耀而独特的事物。

When you were making it, it felt like a special sparkling thing.

我记得在试镜前读过试播集，那时我有了非常深刻的体验。

I I remember reading the pilot, I guess before the audition and and and and just having a very profound, you know, experience.

能有一位女性编剧如此精准地表达出我内心的世界，这真的非常有力量。

And it was really powerful to have some woman, some writer person so perfectly articulate my internal life.

那位就是温妮·霍尔茨曼，对吧？

And that was Winnie Holtzman that

你提到的那位。

you mentioned.

霍尔茨曼，她至今仍然是我非常亲密的朋友，是一位极具灵感又幽默的人。

Holtzman who who who's still a dear, dear friend and just a wildly inspired, hilarious

人们应该知道这个人。

And people should know person.

写了《女巫前传》。

Wrote Wicked.

《女巫前传》。

Wicked.

是的。

Yes.

就这个小小的独立剧目叫《女巫前传》。

Just this little indie called Wicked.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这基本上是关于少女的故事。

Which is basically about like teenage girls.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

还有她们之间的亲密关系和友谊。

And and their their intimacies and and their their friendships.

是的。

Yeah.

她，还有温妮是我的。

She's And Winnie was mine.

温妮是这个节目的创作者。

Winnie was the creator of the show.

她是，是的。

She was yes.

她是这个节目的创作者。

She was the creator of the show.

而且我们都工作得非常拼命。

And and we were both working so hard.

我们几乎见不到面，但你知道，我们在精神上有着非常深厚的关系，嗯。

We barely saw each other, but we were, you know, in this very deep relationship Mhmm.

在我们的想象中。

In our imaginations.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

你和杰瑞德·莱托试过化学反应吗？没有。

Did you chemistry read with Jared Leto for No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

他刚被录用，然后你们就得想办法建立默契。

He just got hired, and then you guys had to kind of get find find the chemistry there.

他当时在妙而舒的广告里出现。

He was, like, in the Noxzema commercial.

那非常令人兴奋。

That was very exciting.

是的。

Yeah.

他太帅了。

He was so hot.

天哪。

Oh my god.

天哪。

Oh my god.

他太搞笑了。

He was ridiculous.

他是在逗我。

He was kidding me.

你知道吗，乔丹·卡塔诺已经成了那种

You know, Jordan Catalano has, like, become It's also one of

总是让人惊叹的名字。

those names that's always Incredible.

那个

The

全名。

full name.

是的。

Yeah.

乔丹·卡塔诺。

Jordan Catalano.

还有一个叫蒂诺的角色，但你从未在剧中见过。

Also a character in the show called Tino that you never saw.

总之，有

Anyway, there

这么多，但你有什么理论吗？

are so many But I but do you have a theory?

因为现在有了 hindsight，你觉得是什么依然与安吉拉的……嗯，它依然很激进。

Because you know now with perspective, like, what what do you think resonates still with with Angela's, like, Well, it's still radical.

是的。

Yes.

它超越了时代。

It is ahead of a time.

我认为它至今仍超越这个时代。

I think and it remains ahead of this time.

为什么呢？

Like, why?

为什么？

Why?

它本不该被制作出来。

It shouldn't have been made.

它好几次都差点没被制作出来，但它就是凭着意志力自身实现了。

It it it almost wasn't made many times, and and it just willed it wills itself into existence.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我们很少会花那么多时间，如此亲密地关注一个少女。

It's not very often that we spend that much time, intimate time with a teenage girl.

确实没有。

Not really.

是的。

Yeah.

确实没有。

Not really.

从她的视角、真正通过她的眼睛来看这个世界，而她正如此真诚地与重大议题搏斗，你知道吗？

Seeing the world from her from inside of her, and really through her vantage point when she's and she's so earnestly wrestling with big stuff, you know?

而且这真的很棒，是的。

And and it's I yeah.

它只是如此平衡，如此贴合她的特质，你知道，但其中也有一些犀利的台词。

It's just so well balanced and it's so it's so of her, you know, but it's there's some zingers.

有一些非常精妙的反转。

There's some really well crafted blinds.

你知道，

You know,

我重新看了那个场景，就是那个每天都在TikTok上被反复播放的美丽时刻，因为它总出现在我的推荐页上。

I was rewatching that moment, the, like, beautiful moment where that is played over and over again on TikTok every day of my life because it's on my FYP.

就是当乔丹走到安吉拉面前，说：我们能去个地方吗？

But of when Jordan comes over to Angela and says, can we go somewhere?

然后你说：当然可以。

And you say, sure.

你和他一起离开，当着所有人的面牵起他的手。

And you walk off with him and he takes your hand in front of everybody.

这种在公众面前被选中的感觉，是一件非常重要的事。

And that feeling of being chosen publicly is a big Major.

对年轻男女来说，这都是件大事。

Major deal for a young woman and young man.

但我觉得这部剧与其他剧集不同的地方，还在于叙事上，我们清楚地知道那一刻其他角色的感受。

But why the show I think separates itself from others is also editorially, we know what all the other characters are feeling in that moment.

比如，是的。

Like Yes.

我们切到其他每个人的反应。

We cut to everyone else's Yes.

他们对于没有被选中的感受，是的。

Feeling about not being chosen Yeah.

或者选错了人。

Or the wrong person being chosen.

每个人都有种感觉，是的。

Like, everyone's having a feeling like Yeah.

我们能感受到每个人的痛苦，精神上的痛苦，是的。

We're we're feeling everybody's pain, psychic pain Yeah.

或者喜悦，是的。

Or joy Yeah.

就在那一刻。

In that moment.

太棒了。

It's so good.

说得非常好，是的。

That's a very well stated, yeah.

这是一个分析得很好的场景。

It's Well well analyzed scene.

我替你看了，没有。

Watched it for you No.

很多

Many

是的，就是这样。

It and it yes.

我觉得自己非常幸运，那是我的起点。

It was it was I feel wildly fortunate that that was my entry point.

你从小就和我想象中那些非常有趣、复杂，有时甚至很难相处的人合作过。

And you've worked with what I imagine, only imagine are really some very interesting, complicated, and maybe at times difficult people at a young age.

我对你有一种推测，你需要学会保持自我，做自己的艺术家，保护自己，同时又要融入这些复杂的成年人之中。

I project on you that you have to like figure out how to be self possessed and be your own artist and your own, you know, like protect yourself and also be among these like really complicated adults.

你觉得有没有某种内在的‘克莱尔特质’帮助你度过了那些早期的困难？

Do you feel like there was some inner Claire thing that helped you navigate all that early stuff?

我觉得孩子们本来就在不断做这样的事。

I feel like kids are doing that all the time anyway.

并不是每个孩子都这样。

Not every kid.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，我觉得这

You know, I think this is

我不知道。

I don't know.

我也记得，我从不觉得自己是个孩子。

I also, I remember people I never felt like a kid.

而现在，当我成为父母，有了真正的孩子时，我想：是的。

And now now that I am a parent and I have actual children, I'm like, yeah.

不。

No.

我肯定是个孩子。

I for sure was a kid.

这不可能

There's no

方式 做

way Do

你觉得你会吗？我有时候觉得，我也从来没觉得自己是个孩子。

you think you're gonna I sometimes think I've I never felt like a kid either.

不。

No.

当我八九岁的时候，我就觉得，我才是说了算的。

When I was about eight or nine, I was like, I'm in charge of this.

我确实是。

I did.

我当时就觉得，这些人啊，我只记得自己在想：不，我才是那个掌控局面的人。好吧。

I was like, these people like, I just remember being like, nope, I'm in Okay.

我最早的记忆，我不知道是不是真的，当然也不确定，但那是语言能力形成之前的事。

My first memory, I don't know if it's real or not, obviously no idea, but was pre verbal.

那时我还是个婴儿。

Was an infant.

我记得我当时在哪里，我在我们克罗斯比街阁楼的窗户旁，俯瞰拉斐特街。

I remember where I was, I was by my the windows on our in our loft on Crosby Street, overlooking Lafayette Street.

当时我被交给了一些我不太熟悉的成年人，他们也不知道怎么抱小孩。

And I had been handed to some other adults that I didn't know very well, and they didn't know how to hold a baby.

我记得我当时就想，好吧。

And I remember having I'm just like, okay.

这些大人里有一个根本不知道该怎么做的。

This is one of those grown ups who don't know how to do this.

他们很不自在。

They're uncomfortable.

哇。

Wow.

我对此无能为力。

There's nothing I can do about it.

我只能耐心等着熬过去。

I'm just gonna have to wait it out.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

然后我记得我的第二个，嗯。

Then I remember my second my yeah.

卢里。

Lurie.

然后我的第二个记忆是在厨房操作台上，我当时刚开始学说话，但还说不太清楚。

And then my second memory was being on the kitchen island, and I was just about I just was starting to have some language, but not quite enough.

我和妈妈玩猜谜游戏，我想去厨房的另一边，也就是操作台的另一端。

And I was kind of playing charades with my mom, and I wanted to get to the, to the counter, like the other side of the kitchen.

她非常沮丧，我和她都感到很无奈，我特别能理解我们俩的感受。

And she was really frustrated, and she and I and I felt such empathy for both of us.

我当时想，这种情况再这样下去可不行。

And I was like, this week, this cannot continue.

我真的、真的需要攻克语言这个问题，因为，天哪，我们太难了。

Like, I really, really need to crack this language thing because, I mean, poor us.

这太难了。

This is too hard.

太棒了。

Amazing.

是的。

Yeah.

是啊，一直都是这样。

Yeah, it was like that always.

人们总会说，像你这么小的年纪就能演出，真是太了不起了。

And people would say like, how, you know, you know, it's so remarkable that you can deliver performances at such a young age.

你在说什么啊？

I was like, what are you talking about?

我觉得我好像已经在这儿待了整整一辈子。

I feel like I've been here for this has been an eternity.

我的意思是，十一年真的好长，感觉特别丰富。

Like, eleven years is so many years, and it felt very rich.

我当时就想，我积累的素材够用上四辈子了。

I was like, I've got enough material for four lifetimes.

这对我来说完全说得通，因为当你演《小妇人》、快要死去的时候，我觉得她以前来过这里。

It makes total sense to me because when you're in Little Women and you're dying, I was like, she's been here before.

我不得不重拍那场戏。

I had to reshoot that scene.

我都不知道说什么了。

I can't even.

就只是我这边。

Just my side.

因为很明显，我对临终的喘息声太激动了。

Because apparently, I got too excited about the death rattle.

因为，当然了，我读了五种临终阶段。

Because, of course, I read, like, five stages of dying.

我喜欢并深入研究了贝丝所患的任何疾病。

I like and really studied whatever illness Beth had.

当然。

Sure.

我有点过于投入了。

And I got a little carried away.

你让马修·里斯有点紧张，他叫我‘临终喘息’丹妮丝。

You rattled a little too to Matthew Reese, and he calls me death rattle Danes.

但导演吉莉安·安德森骗了我。

But but Gillian Anderson, the director, lied to me.

我直到去年才了解到这一点。

I only learned this, like, last year.

哦。

Oh.

真的。

Literally.

她说可乐洒在了胶片的底片上，所以我们需要重拍。

And said that that Coke had spilled on the negatives of the film and that we needed to reshoot.

哦，这真是个不错的主意。

Oh, that's a nice thing

这么做。

to do.

真的，因为她需要稍微平复一下那种临终喘息的感觉。

Really because she needed to, like like, calm the death rattle down a little bit.

我得到了肯定的答复。

I got yes.

所以这是一个冷知识。

So that's a factoid.

到你20岁的时候，你已经出演了13部电影。

By the time you were 20, you were already in 13 movies.

那可不少，太多了。

That's a few that's a lot.

你还说，我不知道这件事。

And you went I did not know that.

好的。

Okay.

去上学，上了耶鲁。

Went to school, went to Yale.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你在那儿学了什么？

What did you study there?

我本来以为自己会主修心理学，但后来发现那需要很多实验工作。

I thought I was gonna be a psychology major, and then it ended there ended up being like a lot of lab work involved with that.

这可不是我的意思。

That's not what I meant.

是的。

Yeah.

最后，我想我本来不会完成学业，也从未需要正式选定专业。

Eventually, I think I would have been I didn't complete my time, and I never had to declare a major.

但如果我选了，我想我会选英语专业，这正是我想表达的。

But if I had, I think I would have been an English major, which is what I meant.

你懂的？

You know?

我没想让它成为科学……是的。

I I didn't Yeah.

我不希望它变成科学，科学部分对我来说不如人物研究有趣。

I didn't want it to be the sci I the science part was less interesting to me than the character studies.

你有没有一种‘滑门’式的幻想，觉得在另一个人生里你会成为一名治疗师？

Do you have a bit of, like, a sliding doors fantasy that you would be a therapist in another life?

我从九岁起最好的朋友，也是全世界最好的朋友，就是一名治疗师。

Well, my best friend in the whole wide world from the age of nine on is a therapist.

恭喜。

Congrats.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我表现得不错。

I did pretty well.

最好的朋友在

Best friend in

那位治疗师。

the therapist.

我九岁时选得真好。

I chose well at nine.

而且，事实上，这真的很有趣。

And and, actually, it's really fun.

我们确实会一起玩芭比娃娃，用我的角色。

We do kind of play Barbies together with my characters.

比如，当我开始一个项目时，我们会用那种正式的方式去思考，她会为她做诊断。

Like, if I'm starting a project, we'll think about it in those kind of formal terms, and she'll diagnose her.

是的。

And Yeah.

酷。

Cool.

这实际上非常方便。

It is it's actually very handy.

是的。

Yeah.

而且偶尔在午餐时，我会看到她从阿里埃尔切换成另一种状态，然后她会问。

And occasionally at lunch, like, I'll see her kind of it'll be I see her shift from Arielle, you know, into and she'll ask.

她会说：现在我可以正式进入治疗模式和你聊聊吗？

She'll say, is it okay if I, you know, go into actual formal therapy mode with you now?

然后说：拜托，做个梦吧。

And be like, a dream, please.

做个梦。

A dream.

所以，是的。

So so yeah.

我的意思是，好吧。

I I I mean that so okay.

从五岁起，我就想当演员。

So I'd wanted to be an actor from the age of five onwards.

然后人们会告诉我，大多数演员其实赚不了多少钱。

And then people would tell me, you know, most actors actually don't make that much money.

这是一个相当不稳定的，这是真的。

It's a fairly insecure Which is true.

职业选择。

Career choice.

而且继续去并且成为

And continues to And be

我也有务实的一面。

I had a practical side.

我当时想，好吧。

And I thought, okay.

行吧。

Alright.

好吧。

Fine.

我要当一名治疗师。

I'm gonna be a therapist.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我要住在郊区。

And I'm gonna live in the suburbs.

我打算住在爱丽尔隔壁。

I was gonna live next door to Ariel.

我们打算共用一个泳池，各自院子里都装一个滑梯，通向同一个泳池。

We were gonna share a pool, and we would have two slides in our respective yards that would go into the same pool.

我会成为一名治疗师，并举办表演工作坊。

I would be a therapist and do acting workshops.

是的。

Yes.

来滋养灵魂。

To, like, nourish the soul.

那就是我为美好一年所制定的计划。

And that was my plan for a good year.

有一天晚上在餐桌上，我正式宣布了这件事，我说：‘听着，各位。’

And I made an actual announcement one night at the dinner table, and I said, look, guys.

我到底在骗谁呢？

Like, who am I kidding?

根本没有B计划。

There is no plan b.

我就是一个演员。

I am an actor.

有钱没钱，这都是我的天职。

Money or no money, this is this is my calling.

我父母就说，嗯，是吗。

And my parents like, uh-huh.

当然。

Sure.

我当时非常认真。

I was so serious.

这太荒谬了。

It's ridiculous.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

但是

But

我喜欢那个人，因为那个人在做出一种宣言。

I love that person because that person's making a declaration.