乔恩·哈姆

没错。

Right.

你直接就一头扎进洛杉矶了。

You kind of go cold into LA.

一到就落地开工。

Like come in, arrive.

我当时就认识一个人，就是保罗。

I knew one person, Paul.

就他一个。

That was it.

我还有个叔叔阿姨住这儿，所以有地方落脚。

And I had an aunt and uncle that lived out here so I had a had a place to to stay.

是的。

Yeah.

后来我就搬了，找了个公寓，在西尔弗湖住下来，那时候那儿可真是城市拓荒地。

And then I moved, you know, I found found an apartment, found a house to live in out in Silver Lake, which was very, you know, urban pioneering back then.

那会儿可不酷。

Wasn't cool.

我的意思是，挺酷的，但那地方特别边缘。

I mean, it was cool, but it was very out on the edge.

是的。

Yeah.

你从原来的地方跑到这儿来，这转变真让我佩服，你小时候认识什么演员吗？

The swing you took to come out here is very impressive to me because it is like did you grow up knowing any actors?

你认识谁是演员吗？

Did you know anyone that was an actor?

不认识。

No.

你上高中的时候呢？那时候有参加过戏剧吗？

And did you when you were in high school and like like when did you did you do plays?

你该不会是那种爱演戏的运动小子吧？

Were you like were you like the jock that did plays?

是的。

Yeah.

我高中就是那种特别棒的地方，学校鼓励你什么都去尝试。

My high school was one of those magical places that you were just encouraged to do everything.

不会把你局限在某个标签里。

You weren't siloed.

就算你是体育生，也不只是个体育生。

If you were a jock, you weren't just that.

对。

Yeah.

学校不大，但大家都互相认识。

And it was small, but everybody kind of knew each other.

我们毕业班一共才95个人。

My graduating class was 95 kids.

没错。

Yeah.

所以我认识班上所有人，我们几乎都混在一起，你会跟拉小提琴的那孩子做朋友，也会跟那个古怪又漂亮的艺术家做朋友，甚至那个16岁就能唱美声的家伙。

So I knew everybody in my class and we we were kind of all friends like you were friends with the violin kid and you were friends with the weird beautiful artist and the kid that could sing opera somehow at 16.

那儿真是人才济济。

Know, was a lot of talented kids there.

事实上，我学校出来的艾莉·肯珀

And in fact, from my school, Ellie Kemper

对，我知道。

Yes.

我回去教书的时候，她就是我的学生。

Was one of my students when I went back to teach.

是啊，我听说过。

I know.

太棒了。

It's so great.

还有希瑟·戈德恩赫斯特，那位托尼奖提名的女演员，斯坦菲·桑迪茨，莱斯利·史蒂文斯，还有莎拉·克拉克，她跟我一个班，演过《24小时》，还跟保罗·路德谈过恋爱，你敢信？

Heather Goldenhurst who was Tony nominated actress, Stephanie Sanditz, Leslie Stevens, all these kids that Sarah Clark who was in my class who was on 24, who dated Paul Rudd, believe it not.

所以

So

我们那会儿有种特别奇怪但充满创造力的氛围，而且大家都被鼓励着去发挥。

we had this kind of weird concentrated energy that was very creative, but we were encouraged.

我那时候根本不认识什么演员，但我就想，为啥不能是我呢？

So it was I didn't know any actors, but I thought, well, why not me?

他们就说：咱们得找个威利·洛曼。

And they were like, we need a Willy Loman.

找个疲惫的推销员。

Need a tired salesman.

找个十八岁、背负着全世界重量的威利·洛曼。

We need an 18 year old Willie Lohman with the weight of the world on his shoulders.

哈姆来演最合适。

Ham will do it.

你有没有觉得，你以前是不是也特别擅长某项运动，曾经也幻想过自己能当运动员什么的？

Do you ever feel though that you like could have been a were you ever good in a sport enough that you had like dreams like every

我当时觉得自己可能会当运动员，因为我的成长另一半，是我最好的朋友约翰·西蒙斯。

I thought I was gonna be a I thought because also the other half of my growing up was my best friend John Simmons.

他爸是职业棒球选手。

His dad was a professional baseball player.

所以我当时就想，

So I was like,

所以你知道这人是职业棒球运动员？

So you knew this a is professional baseball player.

我可不认识什么职业棒球手。

I didn't

我压根没见过职业棒球选手。

know a professional baseball player.

我就想，总有一天，我和约翰·西蒙斯一定要去红雀队打球，说不定还能上大联盟。

And I was like, man, one of these days, me and me and John Simmons, we're gonna be we're gonna play for the Cardinals, Kaya probably.

你打什么位置？

What position did you play?

我当捕手。

I was a catcher.

你当捕手？

You were a catcher.

是啊。

Yeah.

我总以为捕手都是那种矮矮壮壮的类型？

I always think of the catchers as the little little Stocky guy?

不是的。

No.

我嘛，一直都是这样子的身材。

I was kind of the I was always I was always this shape.

我从小就特别瘦高。

I was always lanky.

对。

Mhmm.

瘦高个儿？

Lanky?

对啊，没错。

Yeah, right.

你不觉得我长得瘦高吗？

Wouldn't you say I'm lanky?

有点儿瘦高吧。

Kind of lanky.

我的意思是，我不是想跟你讨论你的身材，但‘瘦高’这词儿我真用不上。

I mean, I don't want to describe your body back to you but I wouldn't use lanky.

我觉得自己就是瘦高啊。

I feel lanky.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是不是用错这个词了？

Maybe am I using that word wrong?

就是四肢修长吧

Well, limbed and

我懂

I will

扛得起全世界的重量

carry the weight of the world.

得装进你的公文包里

Need it for your briefcase,

我那两个样品箱，天哪

both of those sample cases that I, oh, God.

好吧

Okay.

我说啊，我以前打垒球，所有位置里我最喜欢的就是捕手和二垒手

So catcher, which I have to say in all of I used to play softball and all the positions I my two favorite positions were catcher and second base.

挺有意思

Interesting.

当捕手是因为我觉得捕手就是要接球啊。

Catcher because I felt like catcher catcher is catching.

每一场都参与。

Play.

是的。

Yeah.

你参与每一次进攻，简直就像个教练一样。

You're in every play and you're just like you're kind of like a coach in a way.

对啊。

Yeah.

有一点吧。

A little bit.

你指挥大家往哪儿跑，整个场地都由你掌控。

You tell everyone where to go and you're running the running the room.

这正是我喜欢的

That's what I liked about

二垒呢，原因几乎正好相反，我本来以为你负责这个位置的。

it And second base for almost the opposite reason, which is you're like, I I don't I thought you had it.

二垒嘛，有点像是……没人想管的角落。

Like, second base is a little bit like Not a not a over here.

就在这儿。

Right here.

是个软肋。

Soft spot.

就是说，你心里其实想接这个球。

Like, you know, you're just like, I want

说实话，在谁该喊接高飞球的顺序里，二垒是最没话语权的。

And honestly, in the hierarchy of who gets to call like a pop up, second base is like the last.

对。

Yeah.

二垒就是那种，我其实很想接的球。

Second base is like, I wanted to get it.

我就觉得那球早就该接到了，结果没接到。

I just it was over It was

离你更近一点。

closer to you.

不过你在二垒的时候倒是可以随便聊。

But you can chat.

在二垒待着，聊天的机会可多着呢。

You can chitchat a lot on second base.

而且传球距离短。

And a short throw.

传到一垒就几步的事。

Short throw to first.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

我是真没那臂力。

I mean, I didn't have the arm.

我臂力是不行，但嘴皮子可不弱。

I never had the arm, but I had the mouth.

我信。

I bet.

没错。

Yeah.

瞧见没？

See?

行吧。

Okay.

当时有个派对，我就说我要去当红雀队的捕手。

So so so there was a party that's like, I'm gonna catch for the cardinals.

然后——

And then

对啊。

Yeah.

但说真的，我其实早在高中时就明白了，有些人在这方面的本事比我强太多了。

And then I but here's here's what it really was, is that I realized probably even when I was still in in high school, I was like, oh, there's people that are way better than me at this.

真的，强到根本没法比。

Like like way way way better than me at this.

是啊。

Yeah.

对啊。

Yeah.

所以我很早就打消了这个念头。

And so I kind of like I was early disabused of that notion.

没错。

Yeah.

就是这么回事，说白了就是那样。

Very very just it was kind of like, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且我现在也明白了，我身边好多朋友都是职业运动员，说白了，这真就是一份工作。

And also I realized that and I have a lot of friends now that are that are professional athletes and you're like, it's a job.

是的。

Yeah.

那可太对了。

Big time.

全天候的，24小时不停歇。

It's twenty four seven.

对。

Yeah.

就算休赛期，你也在训练、训练，你要是不爱这行，根本撑不下去。

Even in the off season, you're training, you're training, you better love it.

我懂。

I know.

我就挺喜欢的。

And I was like, I like it.

是的。

Yeah.

我不喜欢它。

I don't love it.

我知道。

I know.

至于运动，我以前看运动或者自己打球的时候，根本没想过这能当一辈子的事。

And with sports, when I watched sports or when even when I played sports, I was I didn't feel like I was playing or watching to like know how to do it for life.

你就是享受其中。

You were enjoying it.

对。

Yes.

就当个爱好而已。

It's like a hobby.

但看电视和电影，我真是看得特别认真。

But with television and film, I definitely watched it very intently.

我也是。

Oh, me too.

对。

Yeah.

所以总结一下，我以前对那些事根本谈不上热爱到想当职业干，但现在我超爱我这份工作。

So to to put a point on the end of that story of like not loving not loving it enough to want to do it professionally, I love what I do now.

对。

Yeah.

我是真这么觉得。

I mean I really do.

是啊。

Yeah.

能做《周六夜现场》这种项目，还能当制片、搞创作，真的太棒了。

And getting to do things like SNL and getting to produce and develop stuff Yeah.

而且能拥有这么长、这么丰富的职业生涯，回头一看，真觉得自己挺了不起的。

And getting to have this kind of length and breadth of a career that you can look back on and go, man, I'm I'm pretty proud of that stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我超喜欢这个。

I love that.

你演过莎士比亚吗？你在舞台上演过莎士比亚吗？

You did Shakespeare and do you do you do Shakespeare in theater?

对。

Yeah.

上大学的时候。

In college.

嗯。

Yeah.

你能看懂莎士比亚吗？

Do you understand Shakespeare?

那里面讲的是啥啊？

What's happening there?

我以为念法是哈姆雷特。

I thought it was pronounced Hamlet.

结果人家说其实是哈姆内特。

Apparently, it's Hamnet.

对。

Yes.

我还以为就是哈姆内特呢。

I just thought it was Hamnet.

不是。

No.

我确实读过。

I I did.

我特别喜欢读书。

I really loved reading.

那时候我慢慢意识到，自己可能要当演员。

Is part of when when I kind of figured out maybe I was gonna be an actor.

我小时候特别爱读剧本，简直是个书呆子。

Is that I would read plays as a little I read like a bananas weirdo when I was a kid.

因为你是个单亲妈妈，

You were a Because I was a single mom

是的。

Yeah.

而且我还是独生子女。

And an only child.

家里只有书。

There's Books.

就这么回事。

That was it.

那时候没网络，也没手机。

There were no internet, there were no phones.

电子游戏还很原始。

Video games were rudimentary.

是的。

Yeah.

所以那时候我就是爱读书，家里到处都是书。

So it was about reading and we had tons of books everywhere.

我还办了图书馆借书证。

And I had a library card.

我就去图书馆借书，还借喜剧唱片。

So I would go to the library, I would check out books, I would check out comedy records.

对。

Yes.

我就靠这两样东西打发时间。

Those are the two things that I got.

你都借了些什么？

What did you check out?

还记得吗？

Do you remember?

我是七岁小男孩，居然有理查德·普赖尔的唱片，想想真疯狂。

I mean, it was bananas that I was a seven year old boy and I had like Richard Pryor records.

是啊。

Yeah.

那名字我就不当众说了。

The name of which I will not say out loud.

对。

Yeah.

不过你去查一下就能知道叫啥。

But you can find out what it's called.

对。

Yeah.

还有史蒂夫·沃伦、鲍勃·纽哈特、乔治·卡林那些，反正图书馆有啥我就拿啥。

But also like Steve Warren, Bob Newhart, George Carlin, like just the stuff that was whatever was there.

那你常看的系列是哪些？

And what were your series?

你那时候读什么书？

What books were you reading?

小时候特别喜欢哪套系列丛书？

Like what kind of series did you love as a kid?

我倒是读过一些，但真不记得有什么特别出名的书了。

I read, there wasn't really I don't I don't remember there being like You, you know, stuff like that.

也不是那种……

It wasn't really like

我觉得《草原上的小木屋》那套书，对我们来说还挺经典的。

I mean, I I feel like Little House in the Prairie was for us kind of like of.

是啊。

Yeah.

那套书我其实没怎么读过。

Which I didn't really read.

感觉那主要是给女孩看的。

It was kind of for girls.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道这是给女孩看的。

I know it's for girls.

但我确实读过。

But I read

男孩也可以看。

It's for boys too.

这是适合所有人的。

It is for everyone.

这是一个很棒的故事。

It's a lovely story.

对了，我其实读过那些书。

And by the way, did I did read I did read those.

我读的是戏剧。

I read plays.

那时候我也不知道为啥，就是特别被它们吸引。

And it was it was something that I would I don't know why I was attracted to them or whatever.

你之前说过，看电视剧是为了了解它，我那时候也是这么想的。

Think I was you said earlier about watching TV and like watching it to learn about it.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得那些剧本就是那样的东西。

And that was what I thought the plays were.

我就一遍遍地读，还大声念给自己听。

And I would read them and I would read them out loud to myself.

对。

Yeah.

我妈就说：你这孩子真怪。

So my mom was like, you're a weird kid.

但现在回想起来，我觉得那是我第一次真正冒出念头：也许我想干这行。

But it was I would that was the looking back, I think that was the first time I would think, oh, maybe I want to do this for real.

你妈妈在你十岁的时候就去世了。

Your mom passed away when you were young, when you were 10.

她是个什么样的人？

What was she like?

她是个职业秘书。

She was a professional secretary.

她特别有本事，特别优秀。

She was a very accomplished lady.

她是六个孩子里最大的。

She was the oldest of six kids.

说不上来，反正就是那样。

She was, I don't know.

她就是我妈妈啊，你知道的。

She was just she was my mom, know.

就是那种……我特别爱她。

It was like one of those I loved her.

我们关系特别好。

We had an amazing relationship.

我经常跟别人这么说。

It's I say this to people all the time.

失去父母，从来都没有合适的时候。

There's never a good time to lose a parent.

真的特别难受。

It stinks.

就是这么回事。

It just does.

我十岁没了妈妈，二十岁没了爸爸。

I lost my mom when I was 10, my dad when I was 20.

但现在跟我同龄的朋友，也有刚失去父母的，一样痛不欲生。

But I have friends that are our age now that just lost their parents that are just as devastated.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以那段关系虽然短暂，但特别重要。

So it was it was brief but it was significant.

是的。

Yeah.

我和她的关系。

My relationship with her.

现在我身边最亲近的家人，就是我姑姑和她妹妹。

And and I still have probably the closest family member in my life is my aunt and her younger sister.

是的。

Yeah.

她是我眼中的酷姑姑，因为她搬到了加州。

Who was the cool aunt because she moved out here to California.

对。

Yeah.

你刚来这儿的时候，就是跟她住一起的吗？

And that's who you lived with when you came out here?

是的。

Yeah.

我姑姑苏。

My aunt Sue.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

因为说实话，你很多作品和你做的事，核心主题都是找家人、收拢家人、选择家人、组建家人，而你所在的行业本身也是这样。

Because I mean, it feels like ham bones the theme of a lot of your work and the things you do is like, like finding your family, like collecting them, choosing them, making it like, and you're in a and you're in a business that does that too.

没错。

Yeah.

就像马戏团来了，你一下子就结识了一群新朋友，咱们俩都长期待在一个节目里，不就是这么回事嘛。

You kinda you know, it's like the circus comes to town and you make new friends and you know, being on a show as we both were for an extended period of time.

是的。

Yeah.

你肯定会建立起一些特别牢固的关系，你知道吧？

You definitely you definitely forge relationships that are that are pretty solid, know?

而且就算马戏团走了，这些关系也不会轻易散掉。

And and and don't really dissipate once the once the circus moves on.

是的。

Yeah.

你要是够幸运的话，确实如此。

I know if you're lucky.

你要是够幸运的话。

If you're lucky.

这正好就是你之前说的，关于人这一块——咱们其实都是些怪咖，各有各的本事。

And that's the that's the thing you were talking about I think with the people part of it is like, you know, you meet we're all kind of crazy weirdos, you know, with different talents.

但当你看到某些人出现在你生命里，你就会想：天啊，这人真牛！

But boy, when you see when certain people come through your orbit and you're like, man, that that person's amazing at that.

那你肯定也有这种感觉吧？我的意思是，你有没有过这种体验？

Well, you must feel that way about people too because I mean, do you ever get this feeling?

我经常有这种感觉，就是遇到一个人，总觉得好像以前在别的地方认识似的。

I get this feeling a lot where like I meet somebody and I'm like, oh, I you know, we've known each other before in another way.

对吧？

Right?

真的特别多。

A lot.

我总觉得斯拉蒂利就是这样，你有没有这种感觉？

And and I can't Am I wrong that Slattery feels like Yeah.

就是那种

That for

他简直就是我大哥。

That's my big brother.

我要是有个大哥，肯定就是他。

If I if I had a big brother, it would be him.

是的。

Yeah.

我刚才就在看。

I was I was just watching.

我早就没再看过《广告狂人》了。

I had I have not watched Mad Men back since

我刚看完。

I just finished.

我有时候在这播客里提到，认识其他演员的好处之一，就是能发消息跟他们说：我正在看你的剧呢。

And I've been and I think I say sometimes on this podcast, the best thing about knowing other actors is sometimes you get to text them and be like, I'm watching your show right now.

你演得太棒了。

You're so good.

我最近刚给你发过这条消息，因为我们刚一起看了。

And I think I just did that to you recently because we watched it.

你肯定就是让我重新看下去的原因了——我老婆安娜和我早就没再看了，现在刚看到第五六集，我立马就给你发消息问：后来呢？

Well, must have been the impetus for me starting it because Anna, my wife Anna and I had hadn't really hadn't watched it back since And the first so we're on like episode five or six now and I and I texted immediately What happens?

别剧透啊。

Don't tell me.

我给斯拉特利发了条消息，还拍了张照发给他。

I texted Slattery, took a picture of it and texted Slattery.

我就跟他说：还记得这一天吗？

Was just like, remember this day?

那是我们第一天拍戏的日子。

It was the first day we shot.

那时候的点点滴滴我都记得清清楚楚。

And I just remember all that stuff.

那场面真是疯了。

And it was wild.

简直太疯狂了。

It was very wild.

那都得是十五年前、二十年前的事了。

Obviously, that was twenty years ago, fifteen years ago.

准确说是二十年前。

Twenty years ago.

其实我一般不会在播客一开始就说这个，但今天我觉得有必要提一下。

Well, we I don't usually bring this up early in the in the in the podcast, but I will now because it makes sense.

你知道我们老喜欢在背后聊人，今天我们就聊了Slattery。

So you know we do this thing where we talk well behind somebody's back before and we talked to Slattery today.

他超棒的，而且特别喜欢你。

And he's the best and, and he loves you.

我们聊到这个，挺有意思的，我问他：‘你是不是觉得像Jon的大哥？’他用一种特别大哥的语气说：‘我觉得我们是平等的，我从Jon身上学的东西，不比他从我这儿学的少，我根本不是在教他，就觉得我们俩是互相影响。’

And we talked about just that about and it's funny because I said, Do you feel like a big brother to Jon and he said, in a very big brotherly way, he was like, I feel like we're equals, I feel like I learn as much from Jon as he learns from me I feel like I'm not teaching him things I just feel like we're.

但这话本身，其实就很像大哥会说的。

But that's also a very big brother thing to say,

对啊。

by Yeah.

说起来也挺有意思，我记得拍第一季的时候，他儿子Harry才六岁，Kiernan——就是演我女儿Sally的那个演员——也才六岁。

I mean, part of it was you know, it's funny for me too because I remember the first couple episodes or the first season of shooting the show and his son Harry was six as was Kiernan, played my daughter on the show, Sally.

现在他们都26岁了。

And now they're 26.

是的

Yeah.

突然间就冒出来这么个闪电和瓶子的事儿。

This lightning and bottle thing that just all of a sudden happens.

我一想到《广告狂人》，就觉得：我可是拼了命才挤进那个房间的。

I point to Mad Men and and think like, I worked very hard to get in that room.

嗯，很多人都知道这事。

Well, I think a lot of people know this.

你确实很拼，那阵子真是没日没夜地干。

You worked hard and you grind you were really grinding.

没错。

For sure.

你那时候估计干了快十年，干过各种各样的活儿，而且……

Like you you were you were working probably for ten years in diff in a lot of different things and

还没到十年，但当演员正经干了六七年是有的。

Not quite ten, but but solid six or seven years as as a working actor

是的。

Yeah.

都是些没人看的片子。

On stuff that nobody watched.

你有没有试过差点就拿到角色的？

Did you ever get close to stuff where you were

全都试过。

Everything.

我就是每部剧里那个配角。

I was the other guy in every thing.

其实我拿到《广告狂人》那年，试镜足足试了七次。

And in fact, the year I I got Mad Men, I had I had tested when we used to do that seven times.

每次都走到最后一步，就是签约前的那轮面试。

I'd gone to the network, the last step before you get hired seven times.

七个不同的项目？

For seven different projects?

七个不同的项目。

Seven different projects.

四十七次。

O four seven.

你还记得其中一些是啥吗？

What do you do you remember what some of them

不记得了。

I don't.

是啊。

Yeah.

都是一些情景喜剧之类的。

They were like sitcoms and

乱七八糟的东西。

Stuff.

对。

Yeah.

你懂的吧？

You know?

对啊。

Yeah.

你知道的，以前呢，现在感觉啥东西都一股脑儿拍出来。

That you know and then and then the old days, now it just feels like everything gets gets produced.

是啊。

Mhmm.

以前呢，

In the

那时候他们先拍个试播集，测试一下效果，行就留，不行就走人，我就被开过好几次。

old days it was like they do a pilot, they test it, they'd see if it worked, maybe you get fired, which I did on several occasions.

这方法简直疯了，但那时候就是这么干的。

And and it's it's such a bananas way to do it, but that was the that was how it was.

你提过好多次《广告狂人》的试镜，那过程真是够折腾的。

And the Mad Men audition process you've talked about many times, but it was arduous.

可真够折腾的。

Arduous.

我一开始是从最底层做起的。

Started I started at the very very bottom.

第一次试镜就是和选角导演对稿子。

The first audition was a pre read just reading with the casting directors.

他们根本不了解我的作品，也没指望他们了解。

They didn't know my work, not that they would.

试镜在圣莫尼卡，我住西尔弗湖。

And it was in Santa Monica and I lived in Silver Lake.

对。

Mhmm.

周五下雨天，从这边赶到那边得花一个半小时。

So it was like an hour and a half to get across town in the rain on a Friday.

我到了那儿，等候室里还坐着个小伙子。

And I met them and there was another kid sitting in the waiting room.

他说那孩子看起来也就十六七岁吧。

And he was like it's like a 16, 17 year old kid.

我当时就想，我是不是走错地方了？

And I was like, man, right place?

他问我：‘你是来试牙膏广告的？’

What's he goes, are you here for the toothpaste to add?

我回他：‘啥？’

I go, what?

不是。

No.

我心里嘀咕：牙膏广告？什么牙膏广告？

Then I was like, what what toothpaste?

他们在找一个人。

They're looking for somebody.

一个年纪大点的男的，肩上扛着世界，布里吉特团队。

Like an older guy, the world on shoulder, Bridgette team.

其实他们是在另一个房间试镜广告，结果我们这边还在这儿，他们就说：‘不不不，我们在这儿呢。’

And it was literally they were casting a the other room was a casting a commercial and and this was they were like, no no no, we're in here.

嗨。

Hi.

不好意思。

Sorry.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我就说：‘嗨，很高兴认识你。’

And I was like, hi, nice to meet you.

哇哦。

Wow.

第二天又是这么回事。

The next day was another one of those.

过了几天，等的人越来越多，你开始认出一些签过名的人，心里就想：‘这人名字我好像在哪见过。’

A few days later was then more and more people are in the waiting Then you start to see people that have signed up, you're like, recognize that guy's name.

他上了体育夜场，估计能成。

He was on sports night, he'll probably get it.

对。

Yeah.

就这么反复了六七次，整整八回。

And it was that that that that that six, seven, eight times.

最后，我总算到了纽约。

And then then finally, I got to New York.

他们用别人的里程积分给我订了飞纽约的机票。

They flew me to New York on somebody's miles.

哇。

Wow.

而且……

And

你去参加最后一次面试的时候，

When you went in for that last one,

最后一场面试是见高管们。

did you The last one was was was meet the executives.

马修·韦纳特别厚道，他跟我说：‘你是不是已经拿到这份工作了？’

And Matthew Weiner to his great credit, he goes, I go, do I have this job?

我简直搞不懂这是怎么回事。

Like what's happening?

他们还专程用别人的里程把我飞到纽约。

You're flying me to New York.

是啊。

Yeah.

他说：‘我带你逛一圈制片办公室，然后介绍你就是唐·德雷珀，你就当自己已经入职了。’

He goes, I'm gonna walk you around the production office and I'm gonna introduce you as Don Draper and you're gonna act like you have the job.

天哪。

Oh, god.

这简直太

That's giving

搞得我紧张死了。

me anxiety.

行吧。

Okay.

他跟人说：‘这位就是我们的唐·德雷珀。’

And he's like, hey, this is our Don.

你知道的，其实是乔恩。

You know, it's Jon.

他让我跟服装设计师、发型师、化妆师这些人都打个招呼，然后就开始了。

Say hi to the cat the costume designer and the hair and makeup and we're gonna do this.

他带着我到处转，我心里直打鼓：我可还没收到任何官方消息呢。

And he's walking me around this whole thing and I'm like, I've not heard officially from anybody anything.

天哪。

Oh my god.

接着我们就去见AMC的四位年轻高管。

So then we go to to meet the executives from AMC who are these four very young executives.

是的。

Yeah.

AMC那时候还是一家新公司。

AMC was a young company.

完全是新成立的。

Brand new.

刚起步不久。

Brand new.

啥也没干过。

Hadn't done anything.

我们过去喝了几杯，我和马特、斯科特·霍恩巴赫这两个制片人，还有那三位高管，我手里拿着酒，心里直打鼓：这到底在搞什么？

We go and we have drinks and we're having a drink and I'm with Matt and Scott Hornbach are the two producers and and and the three executives and kind of holding my drink and I'm like, what what are we what is this?

我们到底来这儿干嘛？

What are we doing?

如果这是个恶作剧，那也太费劲、太狠了点吧。

Is this like this is if this is a prank, this is the most elaborate, meanest Yeah.

恶作剧。

Prank.

对啊。

Yeah.

所以我们一边喝着酒，他们就说：为这部剧干杯。

And so we're having drinks and they're like, here's to the show.

我就跟着说：对，为这部剧干杯。

And I'm like, yeah, here's to the show.

我一口喝掉，然后我们往电梯走，我心里还在嘀咕：我们这是干嘛呢？

And I drink the drink and we go and and and and I'm like, we get it into the elevator.

可他们一直啥也没说。

They still haven't said anything.

最后那位负责的女士终于转过身来，跟我说：你知道你被录用了，对吧？

And and and the lady who's in charge finally turned to me and she goes, you know you got the job right?

天哪。

Oh my god.

没有。

No.

我没喝。

I didn't.

要是早一点在举杯庆祝的时候，我说‘我们没喝’，那才好玩呢。

This would have been way more fun earlier when we were having drinks to toast and do and I said, no, we didn't.

我刚走进电梯，电梯门一开， Maritime 酒店大堂里挤满了上千个狗仔队。

I've been and if we go down the elevator and the elevator doors open up, there's a million paparazzi in the in the in the lobby of the Maritime Hotel.

天哪。

And I'm like, oh my god.

哇，这速度也太快了吧。

Like, wow, that's that was fast.

我的天啊。

Like, holy shit.

但他们说的全是德语。

But they're all speaking German.

我没瞎编，真的。

I'm not making this up.

电梯里跟我一起的，是位特别有名的德国足球运动员，弗朗茨·贝肯鲍尔，或者德国德甲的那些大腕儿之一。

In the elevator with me was a very famous German football player named Franz Beckenbauer or one of the like lions of the German Bundesliga, what have you.

我当时就想，哦，原来这阵仗是冲他来的。

And I was like, oh, it's there for him.

你跟他们说：别挤了别挤了。

You're like, guys guys guys

现在还不能接受采访呢。

are not giving interviews yet.

还没到时候。

Not yet.

让我先说一句

Let me get to

啊？德语？

Oh, the in German?

是啊。

It's yeah.

就是他。

That's him.

好的。

Okay.

就问几个《广告狂人》的问题。

Just a few Mad Men questions.

我知道，你知道，那部剧啊，我就是想说Jon。

I know, you know, the show is I just Jon.

那个部分，你的编剧，那部剧，绝对是殿堂级的。

That part, you, that writing, that show, that show is hall of fame.

谢谢。

Thank you.

殿堂

Hall

殿堂级的表演。

of fame performance.

我完全同意。

Don't disagree.

我觉得这剧真的特别棒。

I think it's a it's a great show.

我重看的时候还挺惊喜的，没觉得尴尬到想钻地缝。

I was I was I was pleasantly surprised watching it back to to not be mortified.

听到你这么说我真的太开心了，这剧简直完美，你的表演太到位了，克制又精准，剧中每个人物的崩塌都恰到好处。

I'm so happy to hear that because it is just pristine and your performance is so good, so measured, so controlled, and it like all the characters in the show starts to unravel in It the perfect

一切都值了。

does pay off.

我觉得这剧最棒的地方就在于，随着剧情慢慢揭开，每个人都能得到一个特别解气的结局。

That's what's really I think really nice about the show is that as it does unravel, it kind of is a satisfying payoff for kind of everybody.

从主题上讲，乔恩·德雷珀这个角色被塑造成这样，就像我们对任何广告、对任何虚构人物那样，把一堆东西都投射到他身上。

Thematically, this idea that like, the character of Jon Draper is being presented in this way, which we like project all this stuff on him just like we would any ad, any version of like a person.

然后我们才意识到，他其实也和我们普通人一样，只是——

And then we realize he is a person like we all are like, but-

缺点一大堆。

Heavily flawed.

缺点一大堆。

Heavily flawed.

但我特别喜欢这部剧的一点是，人物确实会变，但变化也不大。

But yet what I love about the show is people change but not a lot.

对。

Yeah.

所以从来不会出现像马特那种——

So there's never like Matt

马特说过，我觉得这话说得特别好。

Matt has said, and I think it's a great way to describe it.

他说，他希望观众能感受到，这些角色到了最后，只是稍微好了一点点。

Said, I want people to realize that the characters are are going to be just a little bit better at the end.

就一点点。

Just a little bit.

对。

Yeah.

你

You

知道的，一点点改变。

know, a little change.

还有唐，天啊，整个最后一季的剧情就是他一点点放下一切——家庭、工作、身外之物。

And and Don, my God, you know, the whole arc of the final season is him sort of shedding everything, his family, his job, his stuff.

是啊。

Yeah.

最后他跑到大陆的尽头去了。

And he ends up on the end of the continent.

对。

Yeah.

就在大陆的最尽头，他突然意识到：等等，我其实特别擅长这份工作。

At the very end of the continent and that's kind of when he realizes like, oh wait, I'm really good at this job.

我还不如干脆回去，做我真正擅长的那份工作。

I should probably just go back and do the job that I'm really good at.

我问你啊，你重新看过了吧？不知道你还记不记得，最后你演的道恩放下了所有东西。

And my question to you is having rewatched and I don't know if you remember, but at the end, your Dawn lets everything go.

你能跟我讲讲那个团体治疗的场景吗？就是那个特别棒的客串演员——抱歉我记不起他名字了——他崩溃了，因为他觉得自己被忽视了。

Can you just tell me about the scene in the group, the group therapy scene where that wonderful day player, sorry I don't know his name, actor breaks down because he feels invisible.

你能说说那天拍那场戏的感觉吗？毕竟这是第七季的最后一集，你要跟一个不是常驻演员的人演这么重的一场戏，你也不

Can you tell me about that day And reading that because that's a big scene to do at the end of seven seasons with someone who's not I you don't

我也没想到，那整个下半季对我来说，就是离开了所有一起拍了

don't I don't that was the whole last half of that season for me was being away from everybody that I had spent

没错。

That's right.

九十多集的伙伴们。

90 other episodes with.

没错。

That's right.

对啊。

That's right.

斯拉特利和我拍了最后一场戏。

Slattery and I did our last scene.

说真的，就是个特别普通、没啥特别的场景。

It's kind of a it's kind of a weird little nothing scene.

就我们俩在酒吧里闲聊点事儿。

It was just us in a bar talking about something.

我就跟他说，哎，这可是咱们最后一场戏了。

And I said, you know, this is our last scene together.

他愣了一下，说：‘啊？’

And he goes, what?

因为那时候离剧集结束还早着呢，才差三集。

Because it was like three episodes before we were done.

他说：‘不是这样的。’

He's like, no, it isn't.

我说：‘是啊。’

I go, yeah.

他接着说：‘不是。’

He goes, no.

我又说：‘是啊。’

I go, yeah.

但恰恰就是这个瞬间，特别棒。

And it was it's kind of great that it's just that moment.

事情就是这么简单。

It's just that's what it is.

之后你就再也没见过这个人了。

And then you don't see that guy.

对我来说，这种片段特别多，很多都特别难熬。

So there was a lot of that stuff for me a lot of a lot of it was tremendously difficult.

是的。

Yeah.

因为那阵子我生活中一堆乱七八糟的事，简直一团糟。

Because I was handling a lot of personal mishegoss in my life, lot of craziness.

而且长时间待在一个节目里，

And just being on a show for that long

对。

Yeah.

压力真的很大。

Is a lot.

还要跟它告别，

And saying goodbye to it.

告别它，那是一种哀伤，一种失去的痛，你肯定懂。

Saying goodbye to it, it's a grief, it's a grieving process, you know it very well.

所以那个场景，我们是跳着拍的，根本不是最后拍的，这你明白。

So that particular scene and we were we shot out of order, that wasn't the last thing we shot, obviously.

但我们当时是在外景地拍摄。

But we were on location.

我们在比格苏尔那边。

We were up in Big Sur.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们连大部分摄影棚和设备都远离了。

So we were even physically separated from most of the stages, all the stuff.

我们的房车，我当时住酒店，一连四五天都待在那儿。

Our trailers, I was living in a hotel like it was it was so it was like four or five days in a row up there.

那段时间压力特别大。

And it was heavy.

工作强度真的超高。

It was super heavy work.

是的。

Yeah.

我深深感受到这部剧收官的压力。

You I very much felt the weight of the end of the show.

那种责任，就是千万别搞砸了。

And the responsibility of like, don't fuck this up.

别的地方出错都行，唯独这个不能出错。

You can fuck anything else up, but you cannot fuck this up.

这可是个超长故事的最终章。

This is the end of a very, very, very long story.

要是这儿搞砸了，大家记住的就全是这个污点。

And if you shit the bet on this, it's not gonna that will be what you are known for.

但我记得当时就在想，这孩子简直太棒了。

But I do remember that thinking that this kid is killing it.

他表现得特别出色。

He was wonderful.

而且当时剧组里有很多编剧，

And everyone in the there were a lot of like writers,

那些从来没看过《广告狂人》的人，这一段就别听了。

interspersing And for those people that have never watched Mad Men, don't listen to this part.

不过呢，有个场景我得提一下——虽然剧都播了二十年了，但为了没看过的观众我也不多剧透——就是约翰他……

But it is there is a moment, not to give too much away for people that haven't seen it but I mean it has been twenty years but the where we're

剧透警告，就是后来……

past the spoiler Where

约翰 basically 跑去一个类似埃塞伦人的静修地，说白了，他啥都没了，去了个类似团体治疗的早期形式，这辈子头一回真正坐下来，面对自己的情绪。

John is like gone basically to like an Esselen like like retreat, and to basically like to your point he's lost everything and he's in what is an early version of group therapy and the closest he's ever had to actually really truly sitting in his feelings.

然后有个他根本不认识的男人，说出了约翰一听就懂的那番话。

And a man, another man who he doesn't know is expressing this thing that Jon understands really well.

深深的不满，对，就是那种……怎么说呢？

Deep dissatisfaction, deep what's the right word?

觉得自己不够好。

Unworthy.

就是一种不配感。

Unworthiness.

是的

Yeah.

也许只是

Maybe it's just

被看见，却没人爱。

seen and not being loved.

你之前说的那种隐形感，还有那个冰箱什么的。

Invisibility you said earlier that whole kind of thing and this refrigerator and all this.

这真是一段写得特别美的文字。

It's like it's a beautiful piece of writing.

这不仅对这个男人来说是个特别触动的时刻，对唐娜也是，他们之间有种特别的联结。

And it's it's incredibly emotional moment not only for this man but for Dawn and there's a there's a connection that they have and

明白。

Okay.

不过咱们慢点说，因为我习惯跟电视里的人聊天。

Well, want to slow it down because, you know, I like to talk to the TV.