莉娜·邓纳姆

你就是最差的那类人。

Like you have the worst.

对。

Yes.

光给好处，不提要求。

Treats without the trick.

要求呢，宝贝？

Where's the trick, babe?

要求呢，宝贝？

Where's the trick, babe?

根本没什么要求。

There is no trick.

他还说， spoiled pig syndrome 的问题就在于，到最后你养出一头骄纵的猪，这全怪你自己。

And he said also, it's the thing about spoiled pig syndrome is at the end of the day you have a spoiled pig, and it's nobody's fault but your own.

哦，最惨的就是这点。

Oh, that's the worst part.

我懂。

I know.

说到底，这事儿总归绕不开。我觉得过了四十岁，你就越来越没法把责任推给别人了，你心里清楚，自己其实更明白。

Is it always comes back to I mean that, I would say that is the one thing about being over 40, is there's just less and less ability to kind of put the blame externally like you're like, oh no, I know better.

幸好我知道得更清楚了，可现在知道了，真让人头疼。

Thank God I know better but fuck now I know better.

你花了八年时间才写完这本书。

Okay, it took you eight years to write this book.

你怎么知道什么时候才算写完了？

How did you know when it was done?

真是个好问题。

Really good question.

非常好的问题。

A really good question.

我的编辑安迪·沃德是我最欣赏的人之一。

There was so my editor Andy Ward is one of my most favorite people.

我们特别喜欢安迪·沃德。

We love Andy Ward.

我们简直离不开他。

We live for

安迪·沃德人真的很好，是个靠谱的人。

Andy Ward and he's just a good he's a good man.

我平时不太喜欢用‘女儿爸’这个词。

He's I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot.

我不太认同这个说法。

I don't love it.

但他确实是个女儿爸。

But but he is he is a girl dad.

对我们所有人来说，他都是个女儿爸。

He's a girl dad to us all.

他还是个作家型的父亲，简直无可挑剔。我特别欣赏的是，在这个圈子里，很多人遇到这种情况可能会想：算了，八卦够多了，说不定《人物》杂志都该来报道了。

And he's a writer dad and he's just the greatest and he what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe People Magazine would

写够足够的引语，这样就能把内容发布出去了

write enough quotes that we Yeah, can get that out

我们能把这个传出去。

we can get that out there.

好了，准备好了。

Okay, it's ready.

他真的很用心。

And he really cares.

他还一直鼓励我，你知道吗？我刚从康复中心出来三个月就开始写这本书了。

And he really pushed me to, you know, I started the book when I was three months out of rehab.

我当时就想，随便记下一些经历，等写完就彻底放下了，再也不用去想这些事。

And I just thought like, I'll jot off some of these experiences and then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again.

是的。

Yeah.

结果就像你说的，不得不直面自己。

And it ended up sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself.

我当时就想，如果我不仅要讲这个故事，还得弄明白自己是怎么走到这一步的，那这东西要是不真诚，根本值不上印它的那张纸。

I was like, this isn't going to be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on if I don't if I have to tell the story, and I also have to try to understand how I got there.

结果发现，这真得花时间。

And it turns out that takes time.

你提到过，书里涉及好多事，比如感情破裂，还有大量关于如何在这个系统里生存——它怎么帮你，又怎么拖你后腿的内容。

And you know, you've talked about there's, there's so many things in the book there's about, there's relationship breakups, there's tons of stuff about figuring out, like you spoke of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you.

也写了不少关于你同事的私事。

And there's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with.

但我还特别想了解一点，就是你提到的，向年纪大一些的女性寻求智慧这件事。

But I'm also interested in a couple of things but but I'm also interested in the way you speak about like, looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older.

我真愿意读上一百万页关于你和诺拉·艾芙隆的故事。

I was really, I want I could have read a million pages about you and Nora Efron.

我们这个播客里经常聊到她。

And we talk about her on this podcast a lot.

我从来没机会见过她。

I never had the pleasure to meet her.

你们俩要是认识，肯定特别合得来。

But you two would have really had a ball.

谢谢你这么说，我真的很想见她一面。这问题可能不算深奥，但感觉上又像是挺重要的——她给了你不少生活上的建议，比如怎么布置家。

Thank you for saying that I would have loved to have met her and I guess it's not really deep question but it kind of feels like it is like she gave you tips, decorating tips.

确实给了，但那种感觉特别像妈妈般的关怀。

She did, but it that feels very just like very maternal.

其中一种方式是，

One of

她脑子里有个超棒的联络簿，知道哪儿买贝果、哪儿吹头发、该找谁刷墙。

the ways that she showed care was she had this like incredible mental Rolodex of here's where you get your bagels and here's where you blow your hair out and here's who should paint your walls.

刷墙的师傅和刷地板的师傅根本不是同一个人——她把所有让你生活得更好的资源都帮你安排好了。

But the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors like giving you all the tools to live well.

她跟我说过，拍电影没这件特定的巴塔哥尼亚轻量羽绒服可不行。

She said to me, you cannot shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight.

她还说，别选中等厚度的，一定要选轻便的拉链式羽绒背心。

She was like, don't get the medium weight, get the lightweight zip puffer cardigan.

你知道吗，这些东西都是她告诉我的，她在这儿待了很久，慢慢摸索出了一套自己的生活方式。

You know, these things are she's like, I have, I've been here for a while and I figured out she's curated her life.

她把自己的生活打理得井井有条。

She's curated her life.

确实就是这样。

It was exactly that.

对。

Yeah.

我和她都觉得，我有多幸运啊，能成为她愿意把这么多智慧和经验都分享给我的人。

And she and I felt like I how lucky am I to be the person that she has chosen to give this all of this incredible wisdom and information to.

她去世的时候，天哪，有成百上千的人，她居然都抽时间一一叮嘱过。

And when she died, I mean, are hundreds of us somehow she found the

时间来做到这些。

time to do this.

她只要看到一个人，就会想，是觉得这人挺有意思，愿意留他在身边，还是单纯觉得这人需要帮助。

She would just see someone and think, I don't know if she thought, you know, they amused me enough that I can stand to have them around or if she just thought they seem like they need it.

但她以一种令人震惊的方式，为其他年轻女性挺身而出。

But she showed up for other women, younger women in this way that was so mind blowing.

我觉得她这么做，部分原因是因为这让她自己也感觉很好。

And I think part of why she did it was because it, it also made her feel good.

现在 millennials 也慢慢变老了，欢迎加入这个俱乐部，millennials！我想说，其实也没那么糟。现在他们纷纷迈入四十岁，也开始成为导师，身边肯定有不少门生吧。

Well now that you're like now millennials are getting older and welcome to the club millennials I'm here to say it's not so bad, but now millennials are turning 40 like and they're like you're becoming men, a mentor you have mentees I'm sure.

我很喜欢你书里提到的一点：你尽量不给太多建议，只是简单地说，我在这儿，随时都在。

And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice where you just try to say like, I'm here and I'm available.

是的。

Yeah.

学会做一个好导师，真的很有意思。

Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting.

我很好奇，因为我总怕自己陷入一种误区，觉得我比他们更懂。

And I'm curious, because I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do.

比如看到有人在做一件事，我觉得这会害了他们、让他们受伤，这时候我就想伸出手，像系安全带一样拉他们一把。

Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's going to really hurt you and damage if I'm like have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seatbelt.

但与此同时，我不会

But at the same time, I don't

我那时候要是听到这些话，也听不进去。

think I could hear it when I was that age.

打个比方说，这不是我的事，我也管不着。

So like, to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm.

你没法救一个人，除非他自己想被救。

Like, you can't save anybody from themselves.

我的意思是，咱们现在聊的这些，都是些很实际的人生经验。

I mean, you know, this is some code code y stuff we're talking about.

当你看到别人正要犯错，你心里肯定想：别干这事儿。

Like, I know when you see somebody it's like, what are you going to be like, don't do it.

你肯定会说：别去那家公司，别接那个活儿。

Like, what are you gonna say don't do that job, don't take it.

别跟那个人谈恋爱——可谁没走过弯路呢？你劝的时候，人家根本听不进去。

Don't date that guy like we all have to make these mistakes and nobody listens when you

反正我也管不了。

do anyway.

如果有人有问题，而我能帮上忙，我特别高兴。

If someone has a question, and I can answer it, I am delighted.

我也总是说，然后你就完全按自己的想法来。

And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want.

我会在这里为你加油。

And I will be here

说到你书里对生产力神话的剖析，真的深深触动了我这个X世代的人。我们那一代人成长时，看到的是《上班女郎》，地铁里穿着运动鞋拼命奔波，还有麦当娜的纪录片里说‘我要忍着痛继续演’，而Lady Gaga的纪录片里说‘我有纤维肌痛，真的很痛苦’——完全是两种不同的状态。

cheering Speaking you of that, the way you talk about the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a Gen Xer so my Jen grew up with like working girl and you wear your sneakers in the subway and like hustle like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm going to play through the pain, and Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I'm, I have fibromyalgia and I'm really suffering, totally different.

但这两者都展现了一种如何熬过艰难时刻的方式。

And both showed this like version of like how to get through what you're getting through.

但我们被灌输了这样一个观念：如果你不产出，你就没有价值。

But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile.

我知道你也曾深受这种想法的困扰。

And I know you struggled with that too.

你对这个怎么看？

What can you say about that?

或者，写这本书的过程中，或者在生活中，你对这一点有什么新的体会？

Or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through like living life?

当我看到《五英尺二》这部关于Lady Gaga的纪录片时，那是我印象中最触动的一次，我不断倒回去重看，因为我以前从没在镜头前见过这样的画面。

Well, when I saw Five Foot Two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most emotional I remember I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before.

我一直觉得，如果人们知道我身体背后的真实状况，就会觉得‘这个人有问题’。

And I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes, so they'd be like, well, this one's defective.

他们想要换一个更好的。

We want a new one.

我的意思是，好莱坞从来就没让我们觉得这种想法是错的。

I mean, yeah, and Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't that's right, the approach.

也许我们能稍微提一提，但制作人可能不会直接说‘这个人不行’。

I mean, we maybe can can speak about things a little bit, maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud that one's defective.

他们想要换一个，但这种行为模式根本没变。

We want a new one, but the but the behavior remains the same.

所以我不断提醒自己，别人对有价值的生活、如何安排时间、如何平衡健康与工作、健康与宣传行程的看法，都不一定非得是我的标准。

And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of what, what of the right way to spend your time of how to prioritize your health versus the work your health versus a press junket.

对，这些不必成为我的准则。

Yeah, didn't have to be mine.

我记得有一次，快去工作前，他们问我：‘你通常提前多久能感觉到自己要生病了？’

I remember once before a job, them going, so how do you how long before you get sick do you usually know that it's going to happen?

我当时就说：‘我压根没想过这问题，有时候连自己什么时候开始生病都不知道，真不知道该怎么回答。'

And I was like, it never even occurred to me that I was like, sometimes I don't know, like when it starts, I don't I don't know what to say.

总有一种错觉，好像能提前安排好身体崩溃的时间似的。

There was this idea that you could almost like schedule your body's collapse.

你这么说挺有意思，因为这本书让我开始反思——我觉得好文字就是这样，它让你停下来想：我到底是怎么看待这个世界的？就像你说的那样。

It's funny you say that because my brain like what this book did is it like, which I think good writing does is it makes you think about, like, wait, how am I thinking about the world, and to your point.

现在我意识到，我想进一步延伸这个话题，就是去问别人：你是怎么建立自己的系统？你是怎么运作它的？

Now what I'm realizing is that what I want to do to extend the conversation is be like, ask people how did they do their system, how do they work it.

你跟制片人之间的那种对话，真的很有帮助。

So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful.

我以前总以为，自己是唯一一个会这样想的人——年轻的时候，四处张望，觉得别人表面的样子就是他们真实的生活。

I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only thing that, you know, part of being young and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on.

花了好一阵子我才明白，一个人穿着崭新的露露柠檬运动服，刚洗完澡，手里拎着大杯咖啡，不代表他生活就有多完美。

Like it took me a while to go, Oh, just because somebody shows up in just showered in Lululemon sweat clothes with a big cup of coffee.

我曾经觉得，自己永远都不会成为那种女人：自己煮咖啡，倒进保温杯，准时上班，还说‘因为我喜欢早上这么干’。

For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in a thing in a thing in a Yeti cup and got to work and was like, Oh, because I like to do this in the morning and it

我呢，每次都是做造型，我总会问：你什么时候做的发型？

was always a blowout like I was like when did you get a blowout.

谁给你做的？在哪儿做的？你是自己去Dry Bar吗？

Like, who did it, who did it, where did you go, did you go to dry bar yourself.

你家有个人，连第三天发型都还保持着，专门上门帮你打理。

Yeah, you have someone who comes to your house day three of your blowout.

这些啊，确实都是问题。

These are, yeah, these are questions.

有些事，我们看着别人，心里就想：我永远都不会那样。

There's these things where we look at me and go, I will never

就是有这回事。

be has it.

确实有这回事。

Has it.

我们每个人都有这种情况。

We all have it.

后来我才明白，这不过是他们应对生活的方式。

And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing.

我有个特别疯狂的待办事项清单。

Like I, I keep a really psychotic to do list.

我有一套非常具体的待办系统，细节就不多说了，但为了找到这个适合我的方法，我花了好几年。

Have this very specific to do list system that is I won't belabor but it's taken years for me to find a system that works.

我超爱我的这套系统。

I love my system.

每完成一件事，我都会在旁边加个奖杯表情。

When I finish something I put the trophy emoji next to it

为了

for a

一点小奖励。

little treat.

是啊，我给自己一点小奖励。

Yeah, a little my little treat.

你完成了一个任务。

And you did a trick.

是的，我会有奖励。

Yeah, I get a treat.

我的奖励就是那个奖杯表情。

And my treat is that trophy emoji.

对。

Yeah.

到了晚上，我会把没完成的事情挪到明天。

And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen.

有时候你得换一个表情符号，表示我再也不做这件事了。

And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says actually I'm not going to do that anymore.

这事就从清单上删了，之类的。

That's off the list or whatever.

我

I

我确实想聊聊你的床，你在床上干了太多事了，你特别喜欢你的床。

do want to talk about your bed, you create so much in your bed, you love your bed.

我超爱我的床。

I love my bed.

我也超爱我的床。

I love my bed too.

我有点担心你的睡眠。

I'm worried about your sleep.

跟我聊聊你的睡眠吧。

Talk to me about your sleep.

你是夜猫子吗？

Are you a night owl?

这得扯点历史了，我们打小就有一种天生的恐惧，一种根深蒂固的恐惧。

So this is going to be involve a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital terror, we have a congenital.

小时候，睡觉和死亡在我们心里就划了等号，我爸爸有，我妈妈也有，也许正因如此他们才相爱了。

It's something where sleep and death get equated early in childhood, my father had it, my mother had it, maybe that's why they fell in love.

然后这恐惧就传给了我和我弟弟。

And they passed it down to my brother and me.

我们小时候，下午四点就开始害怕上床睡觉了。

And as children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4PM.

所以直到今天，

So still today,

很多人也一样，一想到自己还没睡着就特别焦虑。

a lot of people have that that they are very stressed about the fact that they haven't been asleep.

是啊，我通常三点钟就开始琢磨：咱们几点该换睡衣了？

Yeah, it would be I would start around 3PM to start to say, Okay, what time do you think we're gonna put pajamas on?

你觉得睡前我们通常会做什么？

What do you think we're going to do right before bed?

我爸爸得过来跟我说，他得陪我，然后我会问：今天是穿袜子的日子吗？

Then my father would have to tell me, right, he'd have to take me and I'd say, it a sock night?

还是今天不穿袜子？

Or is it not a sock night?

因为我担心半夜脚会冷醒过来。

Because I was concerned, maybe I'll wake up in the night with cold feet.

可要是醒过来发现脚太热，那不更糟吗？

But wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm?

对了，我好想念珍娜·魏斯-伯曼的笑声。

Then, yeah, my I miss Jenna Weiss-Berman's giggle.

我知道。

I know.

真是太棒了。

Greatest.

然后我会问，你能告诉我明天要做的事吗？让我有点期待。

Then I would say can you tell me a list of things we're going to do tomorrow to look forward to?

因为我觉得，要是没什么可盼着的，我可能睡着睡着就没了。

Because I thought if I didn't, yeah, have things to look forward to I might just pass away in my sleep.

是啊，我真想帮你训练睡眠习惯。

Yeah, I would love to sleep train you.

我真想在你家待上一星期。

I would love to have a week in your house.

我会穿着护士服出现，到时候就说：该睡觉了，该起床了，你得开始打理你的事了，得挑袜子了。

I'm going to wear a nurse's you what I'm gonna go it's time I'm gonna go and I'm gonna and you're gonna start your business, you're gonna say what kind of socks.

我会说：不行不行，别磨蹭，赶紧的。

What I'm gonna go no no no chop

要我说说我在床上到底怎么回事吗？书堆得老高，各种灯照着我，小动物在周围乱窜，还有噪音——每晚两次，我的兔子会猛地跳起来，直接砸在我身上。

chop if I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of the book, the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the noise, I mean, twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly Let's on my stop at rabbits.

咱们先说说兔子吧。

Let's start at rabbits.

咱们问问兔子吧，它们

Let's ask the rabbits if they

能不能睡在床边。

can sleep next to the bed.

兔子呢，说真的，关于兔子你可能不知道。

The rabbits also you know the thing about rabbits is they're don't know the thing about rabbits.

其实兔子是晨昏性动物，也就是说，它们在黎明和黄昏时最活跃，我可能

Don't know the thing is that they are crepuscular which means that they are most awake at dawn and at dusk, I might

睡得比较传统，但我确实觉得，我为自己做的最重要的一件事，就是把睡眠卫生看得和别的事一样重要。

have an old fashioned version of sleep but I do think that one of the best things I did for myself is make sleep hygiene as important as other things.

真厉害。

Wow.

这很难做到，就像你一样，我小时候完全不讲究，总想熬夜，房间里还放着电视，觉得熬夜是种本事。

And it was very hard because like you, I grew up with a total like, I wanted to stay up late I like I would have a TV in my room like staying up late felt like something I was good at.

我也是这么想的。

I felt the same way.

我当时在《周六夜现场》里演了个吸血鬼。

And I had SNL and I was a vampire.

那时候我总想着，别管我这事儿了。

And it was like, don't my thing

我十几岁的时候，《周六夜现场》的重播会在午夜在喜剧中心频道播出。

when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight.

所以我总会偷偷看，我爸妈不知道，我的房间在楼下。

And so I would, my parents, my bedroom was downstairs.

我们住的地方挺特别，在布鲁克林，房子上面是公寓，下面是车库，旁边有个没窗户的小房间，那就是我的卧室。

We lived in this weird place in Brooklyn that was above a garage, but there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room.

房东JP是个独居男人，他留下的东西里头，有一台1993年最时髦的电视。

And the landlord, JP had left his like single guy.

那台电视，就是当年最潮的了。

It was like the most modern TV of 1993.

对。

Right.

我就用美国航空的耳机，凑得离电视特别近，一边看《周六夜现场》一边做笔记。

And I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL.

哦，莱娜。

Oh Lena.

真让人心疼。

So sad.

我是说，喜剧真的特别重要。

I mean comedy is so important.

你别难过。

You're not sad.

我的意思是，这就像运动员练投篮一样。

I mean that's I mean that's like an athlete like just you know, shooting hoops

我2004年从高中毕业的。

I in graduated your from high school in 2004.

所以有一件事我做过，是在圣...

So one thing that I did was at St.

那时候我们都有学生证，规定是必须年满16岁或者18岁才能去领《周六夜现场》的票，到底是哪个年龄来着？

Ann's we had student IDs and the rule was that you could not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were was it 16 or 18?

我不太记得了，好像是16岁吧。

I don't it was I think it might be 16.

就是16岁。

It was 16.

对，我当时才15岁，特别想去。

Yeah, so I was 15 and wanted to go.

所以我想了个办法，假装弄丢了学生证，让他们重新办一张，然后说你们把我的出生年份打错了，让他们把年份改一下。

Yeah, so I came up with a scheme which was I was going to go to act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong, and then have them move the year.

结果他们真给办了。

And they did.

但我后来觉得太对不起人了，就主动坦白了。

Then I felt too guilty and I confessed.

那会儿我还没来得及去呢。

That's before I could ever go.

我当时就开始想

I was like started to think about

这顺利得有点过头了。

like this worked too well.

对啊，

Yeah,

这实在太容易了。

this was too.

我可能会上瘾，再这样下去，迟早要去佛罗里达骗钱，还给人打针让人睡过去——我不能走这条路了。

I could get addicted to this And pretty soon, I'm going to be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection, I can't be on this path.

你说2001年都已经是二十五年前了，真是让人难以置信。

I mean you're speaking of like the fact that 2001 is twenty five years ago is insane.

太不可思议了。

It's insane.

你的作品，尤其是《女孩们》，还有你所有作品的影响力，现在正经历一场惊人的复兴，人们和它们的互动方式也发生了很大变化。

There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work.

你觉得是不是这样，人们写东西的时候，总喜欢把它跟一种更大的怀旧情绪联系起来。

Do you think it is like this, I mean, it's like people write I don't know, people attach it to this bigger idea of nostalgia.

但现在你有没有感觉到，到底是什么原因让人们回头去看这部剧，去感受那个年代的情绪？

But what do you have a sense now of like what it is like why people are going back to that show to you to the feeling that that time?

你有没有想过这个问题？

Do you have

你觉得是什么原因呢？

a sense of why?

说来有意思，我其实并不觉得自己的二十岁出头是那样的时光。

Well, you know, it's interesting because I know that a lot I don't equate my early 20s.

等人们读了这本书，就会明白为什么了，当然，有些特别的时刻除外。

And I think when people read the book, they'll understand why with the exception of some very specific moments.

我从不觉得二十岁出头是充满喜悦和自由的阶段，恰恰相反，那是成人世界的责任和压力突然压下来的时刻。

I don't like equate my early 20s with like a sense of jubilance and freedom just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended.

所以这挺有意思的。

So it's interesting.

而且特别温馨。

And it's cozy.

我想放松的时候就会看《公园与游憩》，我老公管它叫《公园与游憩们》。

Like when I want to be cozy, I watch Parks and Recreation, or as my husband calls it Parks and Recreations.

哦，你加了个S。

Oh, with an s.

他就爱这么叫。

And he that.

我曾经跟他说过，结尾根本没S，你错了。

And once I said, you know, there's no s on the end, you're wrong.

而且我知道我爱上他，是因为有次我拍戏那天，把狗留给他照看，而不是找宠物保姆——那对我来说可是件大事，我心想：好吧，这次就信你一回，看看会怎样。

But and I knew that I, I think maybe I've told you this but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set and it was a big thing for me to be like okay I'm gonna leave her with you not with this dog sitter let's see what happens.

我后来还发消息去问情况，他说：我们正看着《公园与游憩》呢。

Yeah, and I checked, texted to check-in and he said, we're just watching some parks and recreations.

她特别喜欢约翰·拉菲奥。

She loves John Ralfio.

我就说，好吧。

And I went, okay.

好吧。

Okay.

真是个好人。

That's a good guy.

你留下吧。

You stay.

你可以留下。

You can stay.

我本来是想看《公园与游憩》来放松的，但一想到那些女生，我就觉得像踩了压力炸弹一样。

I would watch Parks and Recreations to relax, but the idea that and to me, I'm like girls is like a stress bomb.

就像看个‘好吧’一样。

Like it's like watching Okay.

咱们聊聊这个吧。

Let's talk about this.

我同意。

I agree.

女孩子确实会让人

Girls can be a

看《女孩》简直像在经历一场压力爆炸。

Girls is a stress bomb.

这剧太让人紧张了。

It's stressful show.

我每次看《女孩》，都觉得像在看一部有人只有十分钟时间拆弹的电影。

I feel like when I'm watching Girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like ten minutes to disseminate a bomb.

就是，这剧但

Like, it's But it

其实能让人特别放松。

really, really relaxes people.

它让人想起自己的过去，也让人想起剧中人物的那段时光。

It and and I think it reminds them of time, it reminds them of time in their lives and a time in the characters lives.

而且一个

And a

很多上了年纪的人，尤其是四十多岁的人，会跟我讲：我23岁的时候，住在洛里默站附近，和两个大学最好的朋友一起住。现在，其中一个已经去世了，另一个成了共和党人。他们是在怀念那段曾经让他们感觉充满活力的美好时光。

lot of people say to me, people who are on the old on the more 40 end will go like I lived in, I lived off the Lorimer stop when I was 23 with my two best friends from college and you know, now one of them is dead and one of them is a Republican, you know, like they are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them.

是的。

Yeah.

我很喜欢他们觉得《女孩》这部剧很温馨，仿佛主角就是他们的朋友。

And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends like that.

是的。

Yeah.

其实我当初只想拍点东西，总觉得自己这辈子不可能做出那种让人想窝在沙发上、感到温暖的剧。但如果它真能带给观众这种感受，那我也觉得挺好。尽管这部剧里有社交媒体，尽管第一集里就有相关对话——不过我从剧集完结后就再也没看过《女孩》。

And also all I ever wanted to make, I always was sad like, I'm never gonna be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone wanna curl up and but so if it is that for people, I also think there's something even though the show does have social media, even though the show, you know, there's there's like a conversation in the first episode, and I've never watched Girls since we finished.

真的吗？

So I Really?

你从来没重看过？

You've never done a rewatch?

我从来没重看过。

I've never done a rewatch.

我从来没重看过。

I've never done a rewatch.

我只是总在想，你呢，你有没有

I just guess I'm always thinking and I don't know do you

会回头再看一些剧吗？

ever watch things.

我和孩子一起重看过《公园与游憩》。

Rewatched Parks and Recreations with my kids.

他们特别喜欢。

They love it.

我建议你哪天也重看一遍《公园与游憩》，还有《女孩》——这真的能让你对自己更温柔一点。那些你曾经挑剔的地方，突然就不重要了，至少对我是这样。你只会想起那种感觉，连剧情都记不清了。

I would suggest someday you do rewatch Parks and Recreations rewatch girls because it is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself like you just all the stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away, at least it did for me and you just remembered the feeling like, I didn't even remember what happened.

我当时都想不起来这剧讲啥了。

I was like what happens here.

莱斯利最后赢了吗？我都记不清剧情了，但那种拍戏时的感觉我还记得，像是身体里的一种感受，让我特别感恩。

Does Leslie win like I couldn't even remember the plot, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes like the, the it was like a body feeling, and it made me feel grateful.

真的让我特别感恩。

It made me feel really grateful.

我一直在想，真希望你也能有这种体验。

And I wonder I hope I would wish that for you.

不确定你能不能感受到，但我总觉得……

Don't know if you will feel that but maybe maybe I think

我是真的喜欢那些人，也喜欢那种氛围。安德鲁·雷诺兹看完书后说，他有些难过，因为他觉得我们当时玩得那么开心。

I mean I love those people and I love that and there were so many wonderful times you know after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like, he was like it was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so fun.

但我看完书后，完全没觉得你们玩得开心。

And then I read it and didn't feel like you were having fun.

我当时就想，不对啊，我们在镜头前的时候明明很开心。

I was like, no, when we were on screen.

那才是最棒的时刻。

That was the best thing ever.

那是我逃离内心所有纷扰的出口。

That was my like that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind.

我总觉得自己能推开一扇门，变成那些人。

I always felt like I could open a door into being those people.

我记得那种感觉，而且那是我唯一一次有这种体验，因为我并不是那种有灵性气质的演员。

And I remember feeling like this, and it's only time I really felt this way, because I'm not like a mystical actor in this way.

但我就觉得，不管莉娜有什么烦恼，全都消失了。

But I just, I felt like my whatever Lena's problems are go away.

那些特定人物的烦恼，说到底其实挺轻飘的，可它们却占据了我全部心思。我始终觉得，和你们在一起的时候，我满心欢喜。手牵着手，一起做这件事，所有伴随而来的感受，都让我无比满足。

And like the problems of these particular people, which feel sort of light and inconsequential at the end of the day, took over and so I was like no, I always felt joy when I was with you I always felt joy when I was do it linked hands linked with these people doing this thing it was everything that came with it.

是啊，那确实不容易。

Yeah, that was hard.

你觉得那些写女孩故事的人，错在哪儿了？

What do you think people who write about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it?

那时候，大家的看法走两个极端：有人觉得我们根本没意识到这背后是在开玩笑。

At the time, it was like there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all.

大家以为我们拍的是一部关于美国最弱势群体困境的严肃电影，其实完全搞错了方向。

Like that we were thought that we were making like, you know, a pressing film about like the concerns of America's neediest population, and that we just were really missing the mark.

没错。

Right.

还有人觉得我太懂这个梗了，我记得有些保守评论员说，这根本就是在讽刺觉醒的千禧一代，把他们狠狠地嘲讽了一番。

And then there were the people who thought that I was like so in on the joke that I remember there being conservative commentators who were like, actually, this is a, you know, this is she's ignoring woke millennials, and she's taking them down.

但其实，真相完全在两者之间——我们真的把这一切当回事。

And I was like, actually, something can live totally between those places, which is, we take them totally seriously.

同时，我们也完全明白其中的幽默之处。

And we totally get what's funny about it.

是啊。

Yeah.

人们总是低估年轻女性。

People underestimate young women all the time.

对。

Yes.

那还挺搞笑的。

And it was funny.

要是没人喜欢这节目，责任全在我。

It was like, if if they people didn't like the show, it was my fault.

要是有人喜欢，那责任就得别人来背。

If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else.

就是这么回事，对。

It was just- Yes.

现在回头想想，

It was and really looking back.

现在经常有人来找我，说有人在网上骂我。

Now, if somebody people come to me a lot, we'll go like someone saying something mean about me on the Internet.

我该怎么办？

What do I do?

我就跟他们说，别去看就行了。

And I was going, just don't look at it.

是的，别去看就行了。

Yeah, just don't look at it.

但我就是没法听进去这建议。

But I couldn't take that advice.

当然了，这也就是你刚才问起，我怎么看待谈这本书这件事的原因。

Of course, that's why it's when you were asking, like, how do you like talking about the book?

你怎么会不喜欢谈这本书呢？

How do you not like talking about the book?

后来我就绕开这个话题了。

And then I circled away from that.

我回头再想，有时候别人会问我，你觉得人们为什么会对你有这种看法？

I'm going to circle back is sometimes people will ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about you?

或者为什么你觉得人们……

Or why do you think people?

为什么人们会对你的反应这么强烈？

Why do you think people had a strong reaction?

我就说，归根结底，这真不关我的事。

And I go, it's ultimately like, not really my problem.

这不光不关你的事，根本就轮不着你管。

Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business.

这话怎么说？

How about that?

别人怎么看你，根本就不用你操心。

That's way people think about you is none of your business.

这真不是你该管的。

It's not your business though.

这真不是你该管的。

It's not your business.

真的完全不是。

It's truly not.

就像我住酒店时用的名字，就叫‘不关你事’。

It's just like and that is I'm checking into the hotel under the name, none your business.

而且

And

所以有一本书是一个阵营的人写的。

so a book written by one of the sides.

当你在塑造那些女性角色的时候。

When you're when you're writing the characters for girls.

你有没有觉得这是一部关于女性友谊的剧？

Did you think it was a show about female friendship?

我觉得是的，我觉得这确实是一部关于女性友谊的剧。

I thought yes, I thought it was a show about female friendship.

但我后来意识到，这部剧真正讲的是，女性友谊本质上就是得弄清楚什么该管、什么不该管。

But I was like, it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually until you figure out what's is and isn't your business.

这是一片错综复杂的泥潭。

It's a thorny torture scape.

因为关于女性这件事，我特别着迷。

And because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them.

我这么着迷她们，部分原因也是因为我怕她们，她们太聪明了。

And part of why I'm obsessed with them is also because I'm scared of them because they're too smart.

我明白。

I see.

你懂我的意思吧？

Do you know what I mean?

你可能没这种感觉。

You might not kind of feel that way.

我没有，但我懂你的意思，确实如此。

I don't, I don't but I understand what you mean because it is.

我觉得，能提到这一点很坦诚：复杂又有趣的人，往往带来复杂又引人入胜的关系。

I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that complicated people, interesting complicated people often provide complicated interesting like relationships.

有时候我看《女孩》这部剧，就会想：她们真的是朋友吗？

And there were times when I would watch girls and I'd be like, Are they friends?

答案常常是否定的。

The answer was often no.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他们只是紧抓着一个想法不放。

I mean, they were holding on to an idea.

他们能成为朋友，部分原因在于，年轻人有时候会留住某些朋友，不是因为对方带给他们快乐，而是因为和对方在一起，能让他们觉得自己高人一等，或者觉得自己赢了。

Part of the reason they were friends because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feelings they give them, but because they get to feel superior or they get to feel yes.

他们觉得，和漂亮的人站在一起，自己就显得更耀眼，不管是什么原因吧。

They get to feel like in contrast, they're winning, or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is.

可你才二十多岁，离高中毕业也没多久呢。

And you're still like, you're not when you're your 20s, you're not even that far out of high school.

对，你根本还没来得及放下那些东西。

Yeah, you don't even haven't even yet let go of all that stuff.

不过我这么说，并不是因为我自己有多了不起。

And now this isn't to say I'm I have amazing.

我的女性朋友都非常出色。

My female friends are incredible.

我不怕她们。

I'm not afraid of them.

但我也觉得，女性之间那种彼此看透、互相了解的方式，有时候会让人特别坦诚，甚至有点暴露。

But I also in my there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other that can feel very exposing.

真正好的是，现在我的大部分女性关系都变得轻松了，有天早上我突然意识到，我已经很久没跟人发过那种沉重的邮件了。

And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships have there was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while.

我甚至想不起来，二十多岁时跟闺蜜吵过架。

Like I haven't had to remember once having a fight with a girlfriend in, in our 20s.

以前我们总是一来一回地较真，现在如果有人提意见，我不会再像以前那样逐条回应了。

And we were like going back and forth in these long point to point now, I will not if someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points like I'm not going.

你不是在逐条强调重点。

I'm not you're not bolding the points.

然后我再一条条给你回复。

And then here are my responses to the points.

我又不是律师，不会对着你的电子签名文件逐条批注再发回去。

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not going to make notes on your DocuSign and send it back to you.

事情根本不是这样。

That's not what's happening.

但我们以前确实这样过。

But we were doing that.

我记得曾把这事儿给前男友看，他都气坏了。

And I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outraged.

他说：我根本不知道自己想表达什么。

And he was like, I don't even know what I mean.

你们俩就像在参加学术写作比赛，各自拼命写长文，论证对方有多不配当朋友，如果你们真有这种感觉的话。

It's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend if you feel this way.

可没过一会儿，大家又都道歉了，说：我刚才那话不是那个意思。

Then, and then moments later, everyone's apologizing going, I didn't mean any of that.

可这得耗费多少精力，就为了搞这么一场创意十足的闹剧啊。

And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expend on this creative

就像孩子们说的：少说点。

writing Say like the kids say say less.

不用说了。

Say less.

说吧。

Say

最近有人跟我说，如果有人给你发消息，你有没有见过那种表情包，别人发什么‘恭喜’或者‘听说你遇到这事真遗憾’。

Say Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean, you ever seen that meme where someone's like, congrats or sorry that happened to you.

我也不清楚。

I don't know.

我不想看那么多。

I'm not trying to read all that.

有人回了个‘嗯’，我真的不知道。

Somebody writes Yes, someone I really I don't know.

我不想

I'm not trying

看那么多。

to read all that.

是的，我真不想读那么长的一大串。

Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that.

奥布瑞·普拉扎在《公园与游憩》片场的时候，我正给谁发消息，她就拿走我的手机，把内容删掉，然后只回一个‘不’。

Aubrey Plaza on the set of Parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone and she would erase it and then just write no.

我当时就想，哦，我也可以这么回啊。

And I'd be like, oh, I guess I could say that too.

我就直接回个‘不’就行了。

I could just say no.

我哥哥教过我一个原则：别回的行数比对方发的还多。

Well, there's a big thing which is my brother taught me, he's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you.

挺有意思的，你父母，你在书里提到过，你爸妈都是特别成功的艺术家，活在那个艺术圈里，那种地方说话都特讲究。

It's funny, your parents, you know, you talk about it in your book, you have really successful art artist parents who are in that art world which is talk about it like in the rooms that are small.

就是那种高定圈儿。

I mean, there's like high fashion.

还有那种特别深奥的智识圈。

There's like hyper intellectualism.

还有他们俩所处的那个艺术圈，

There's, and there's the art world that they both live in,

要是说更小的圈子，比如接触即兴舞蹈圈，那还是从欧柏林学院出来的，我和詹娜就上那儿念的书。

it can only get smaller if you're like, well the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College where Jenna and I went.

接触即兴舞蹈啊，宝贝，那可是谁都能进的。

Improv contact dance, babe, that is wide open.

谁都可以参与进去。

Anybody can get in there.

接触即兴就是整个过程里，身体之间必须始终保持至少一个接触点。

Improv, just gotta keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time.

我那次可真是过足了瘾。

I had such a purr fest.

只要是得跟人身体接触的事儿，

Like anything that's like we have to touch each other.

你都会想，干嘛非得这样？

You're like, why?

我记得我在欧柏林的时候去过一堂课，因为我当时给《欧柏林葡萄》写专栏，在这里向所有《葡萄》的编辑们致敬。

I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin because I used to do like a column for the Oberlin grape shout out to all you to all you grape writers out there.

我会去尝试校园里的一些活动，

And it was like, I'd go and try things on campus,

看看我对此有什么看法。

see what I thought

对它们的看法。

of them.

哦，我今天打算做点有意识的即兴。

Oh, I'm going do cap aware today.

我去体验了接触即兴。

And I went and did contact improv.

基本上我的论文主题就是关于变态之类的，因为我还记得当时老师说，好，现在大家脱掉一件衣服，然后大家都开始脱裤子，你知道的，场面就

And basically my thesis was like, perverts, like that was I Because I remember they were like, okay, now everybody remove one article of clothing of And your everyone was like pants, you know, it was

立刻变得很尴尬。

right away.

我的意思是，2000年代就是这样，回头一看，你几乎觉得随便给什么事贴个标签，都能说人家是怪人。

I mean, that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like perverts.

对啊。

Yeah.

不过在我们聊别的之前，说到杰莎背叛汉娜那事儿，现在想想真是挺让人意外的。

But before we get off girls when now we're getting into the weeds but now when Jessa betrayed Hannah.

是啊，那确实挺难的。

Yeah, that was hard.

对很多人来说都很难，杰米玛自己也不愿意这么做。

That was hard for a lot of people that was hard for Jemima didn't want to do it.

我猜杰米玛心里肯定在说：别逼我干这事儿。

I bet Jemima was like, don't make me do this.

这招真是典型的反派操作。

Bet it's a real villain move.

但这件事也让编剧有机会，让我们前所未有地看清了汉娜。

But what it allowed us I think in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这也标志着一段故事的终结。

And also was just like the end of a cycle of story.

我觉得她当时之所以能说服自己这么做，是因为她觉得汉娜从来没怎么体谅过她，可能汉娜自己心里也这么想。

I also think that part of the reason that the way she justified that to herself in the moment, is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me and she might have had Hannah might have this idea.

真正的朋友是不会这么做的。

Here's what friends don't do.

朋友不会跟你的男朋友、前男友上床，也不会……

They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex boyfriend and they don't.

不会把你推到车前头，其他的事儿倒还都能商量。

Don't know, you know, they don't sleep with your ex boyfriend, they don't push you in front of a car and everything else is fair game.

可她觉得，你早就用这些小动作一点点毁掉了我们的友谊。

And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all of these other little moves.

另外一点是，汉娜从不觉得自己有力量，她根本没意识到自己其实有能力伤害别人的感情。

The other thing is because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power, she doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings.

她总觉得生活是在对她发生。

She's the world is happening to her.

对。

Yes.

我希望她长大后能明白，其实很多时候，是她在影响这个世界。

And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world.

我想特别夸你一下，那个情节不仅大胆，还很好地推动了故事发展。

And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing, just good moving the story forward.

而且我们一直在关注杰莎和汉娜。

But we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah.

我们真正关心的就是她们两个人。

Like that's who we It's were caring

真的很棒。

really nice.

我和杰妮玛从十一岁就认识了。

And it's, you know, Jemima and I have been friends since we were 11.

所以，当我们能一起深入探讨故事时，总是特别有意思。

So it was, it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together.

对。

Yeah.

因为很多时候，我们就是……你知道的，对。

Because often we were just, you know Yeah.

在同一个派对上，对同一件事挑眉表示惊讶。

In the in the same room at the same party raising our eyebrows at the same thing.

当我们一起拍那些情感浓烈的大段落时，效果真的棒极了。

And when we got to do those big chunky emotional scenes together, it was amazing.

但我记得当时我指导她和亚当第一次接吻那场戏，她特别紧张，我能看出她很慌乱，因为那完全违背了她对行为举止的本能认知。

But I do remember her when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed for the first time, she was really I could see her panic because it went against every instinct she had about behavior.

我当时得跟她说，他其实

And I had to say, I'm not he's

并不是我男朋友。

not really my boyfriend.

我真不会生你的气。

I'm not really gonna get mad at you.

对。

Right.

他其实只是在演戏。

He's actually just Acting.

演戏而已。

Acting.

我们也是。

And so are we.

说到底，其实都是演的。

And at the end of the day Yeah.

我们俩都没跟对方的前男友接吻，所以没什么大不了的。

Neither of us kissed each other's ex boyfriend, so we're gonna be fine.

是的。

Yeah.

而且就算我们当中真有人亲了对方的前男友，我们也会没事的。

And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex boyfriend, we'd be fine.

你还让我穿上这件巴塔哥尼亚轻薄外套。

And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight.

穿上。

Put

这件轻薄外套。

this lightweight.

叫这个人来帮你刷墙，我们都会没事的。

Call this man to paint your walls we're gonna be And we're

我们会没事的。

gonna be fine.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我想听听你对几件事的真看法。

I want to get your hot takes on a few things.

好的，没问题。

Okay, great.

这些都是一些随机的话题，但我感觉你对它们都有很鲜明的观点，我特别想听听。

These are completely random things but I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about.

好的，没问题。

Okay, great.

没有对错之分。

And there's no right or wrong.

行。

Okay.

TikTok。

TikTok.

我在TikTok上看到你，觉得你太棒了。

I spent you're amazing on TikTok

谢谢。

And thank you.

欢迎来到抖音。

Welcome to TikTok.

我看过你的抖音视频。

I've seen your TikToks.

我的推荐算法显然很了解我，好多视频都来自你的账号。

My algorithm knows who I am obviously and a lot of them are from your bed.

我喜欢抖音的一点是，虽然整个网络文化都在变，但我觉得它让很多人找到了志同道合的人，比如我常看到一个女人独自在农舍里用锅喂棕熊，她居然找到了自己的圈子，这一点我很欣赏。

But what I like about TikTok, I mean I'm sure like everything in the culture is changing but what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like minded folks and to find people who are I always see like a woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends and that I

找到了同好，而且我觉得上面的喜剧内容也特别棒。

like found your friends and also I think there's just good comedy there.

确实有很棒的喜剧内容，真的挺有意思的。

There's I think there's good comedy, there's good comedy.

还有很多优质的教育类内容。

There's good educational content.

你知道吧，我不希望看到有人给我推销什么雀斑笔，但以前我的TikTok推荐里全是女人和猪的视频。

And, you know, I don't want to be watching someone like, sell me a freckle stick, but I do I mean my tick tock algorithm when I still had it was women with pigs.

在澳大利亚，性工作是合法的，我特别喜欢看那些女人数钱、聊自己的经历。

And I like when there's us were in Australia where sex work is legal I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences

还有她们数钱的样子。

and and their money counters.

是的，我就爱看这个。

Yeah, I love that.

还有那种ASMR的指甲音效，太棒了。

Love that ASMR nails.

我还喜欢那些在脱衣舞俱乐部前台工作的女人，你看不到顾客，但能看见她们在挑谁进房间。

Also I like the women who work at like exotic dancing clubs and are at the front and they're and you don't see the patrons, but you see them deciding who's going to come in.

对，我也特别喜欢这个。

Yes, I love that too.

我特别欣赏女性工作时的样子，真的超爱。不过有时候看久了，发现一个人一开始特别真实，后来慢慢就有点变味了——毕竟，一点小名气就能让人迷失。

I love women at work when I love women at work and all the way I love and sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic and then sure you see like a little taste of I mean, was a time of like a little taste of fame makes us all sick.

不是这样的。

It's not.

确实如此。

It's very true.

简单点问，健怡可乐，要还是不要？

Shorter question Diet Coke, yes or no.

你知道吗

Do know

孩子们管它叫‘冰箱烟’。

the kids, the kids have been calling it fridge cigs.

是的，我喜欢这个叫法。

Yeah, love it.

我超爱健怡可乐。

I love Diet Coke.

我觉得这不该当成日常饮品。

I don't think it's an everyday thing.

我同意。

Agree.

我妈妈觉得这是种犒赏。

My mother, it's a treat.

你要是表现得好，就能得到一瓶健怡可乐。

If you do a trick, you do a trick, you get a Diet Coke.

我妈妈每次去做乳腺检查，从40岁开始，每次做完都会吃一根纽约热狗，再配一瓶健怡可乐——就是那种汤水浑浊的热狗，配上健怡可乐，这已经成了她的习惯。

When I, my mother every time she gets a mammogram and since she was 40 she every time she gets a mammogram she gets a New York City hot dog and a Diet Coke, dirty water hot dog and a Diet Coke so it's her.

对，我明白，她这是……

Yes, I see She

做完一次成功的乳腺检查，就来全套致癌物大餐。

has the full carcinogens package after a successful mammogram.

梅格·斯塔尔特，哦，玛丽。

Meg Stalter Oh Mary.

我太兴奋了。

Oh, I'm so excited.

我们真的很喜欢梅格。

We love Meg.

我太期待了。

I'm so excited.

她特别搞笑。

She's so funny.

那个节目里的那位女士，真是个特别有幽默感的人。

It will be that I mean that show that woman, she's such a funny special person

没错，她真的太逗了。

she is, she is hilarious.

我有幸和她合作过几次。

I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times.

我也特别喜欢她聊成名经历的方式。

Also I'm loving how she's interacting, talking about like fame and found her way.

真的很有趣。

Something really interesting.

目前最不喜欢的时尚潮流。

Least favorite current fashion trend.

我一直说，我的风格就像个拿着信用卡的调皮五岁小孩。

I've always said that my style is like bratty five year old with a credit card.

哦，这说得通。

Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

你是不是也有同感？

You feel that right?

就像有个小女孩，她爸爸给了她一张卡，说想买什么都可以，于是她真的什么都买，因为很多东西我小时候根本不想穿，但爸妈品味好，总说：‘你才不要那个呢。’

Like it's like a girl who's like my dad gave me this and he said I can get whatever I want And then you, you just can because so many of the things that also because my parents have good taste when I was a kid a lot was like, you don't want that.

你才不要那件亮片豹纹绒面长袍和配套的腿套呢。

That's not you don't want that sparkly leopard velour tunic and matching leg warmers.

我就要。

Yes I do.

现在我长大了，自己赚钱，想买什么就能买什么。

And now I'm an adult who makes my own money and I can

我能从你身上感受到这种高低搭配的风格，你对那些备受尊敬的艺术家和作家特别了解，但完全不会让人觉得你高高在上。

have I get that vibe from you it's you're very high low in that way like, I love that you like you know a ton about really like, esteemed artists and writers and then also, you like, you don't feel like a snob about it.

这挺难的，因为纽约长大的孩子有时候资源太多，容易让人觉得他们不配进这个圈子，但你完全不是这种感觉。

It's hard because you know New York kids can sometimes like have access and to then, you know, people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room, and you do not give off that

我真的超爱真人秀节目。

I like, I mean I love, I love reality television.

对。

Yeah.

你现在还喜欢真人秀吗？

Do you still love reality television?

我不看了，但我以前看吗？

I don't but I, I Do you used to?

我不爱看《主妇》系列，那玩意儿让我神经紧张。

No, I wasn't a housewife's fan because it fucks with my nervous system a little bit.

我懂。

I get it.

人们总是争论，还互相误解。

The way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other.

我确实喜欢《甲板之下》。

I do enjoy a below deck.

我喜欢那种以工作为主题的节目。

I enjoy jobs based.

我们也喜欢以工作为主题的内容。

We like jobs based programming.

我要说一句英国的好话，那里有很多不靠剧本、看了让人放松的节目。

And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing.

比如，你特别想看一位打扮得体的女历史学家带你参观威尔士最古老的城堡，就是玛丽·比尔德，我们太爱她了。

There's a lot of like, you like to watch this, this very well decorated female historian take you on a tour of the oldest castle in Wales Mary Beard, we live for you.

或者像《英国烘焙大赛》这样的节目，你也知道。

And, or would we like to, you know, I mean, Great British Bake Offs an example

但那不算真人秀。

which but that's not reality.