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嘿。
Hey.
在我们深入之前，先简单说一句。
Before we dive in, a quick note.
我在TEDx博尔德的新演讲视频刚刚在YouTube上线了。
The video from my new TEDx Boulder talk just went live on YouTube.
这是在一个被屏幕、机器和AI吞噬的世界里，对手工创作的一封情书。
It's this love letter to making things with your hands in a world that's being eaten by screens, machines, and AI.
我还在演讲中分享了一个从未公开讲述过的故事。
And I share this story that I've never told publicly before.
如果你能去看看，对我来说意义重大。
It'd mean the world to me if you go and check it out.
你现在就可以在YouTube上观看。
You can watch it now on YouTube.
只需打开YouTube搜索Jonathan Fields和TEDx博尔德，或者直接点击节目说明中的链接。
Just open up YouTube and search for Jonathan Fields and TEDx Boulder, or just click the link in the show notes.
你有没有看过《了不起的麦瑟尔夫人》这类剧中那些妙语连珠的快速对话，然后心想：为什么我就不能这么机智、敏捷、风趣或聪明呢？
So have you ever watched those rapid fire witty conversations in shows like the marvelous miss Maison and thought to yourself, why can't I be that clever or quick or funny or smart?
我知道我有过很多次这种想法，而今天对话让我着迷的是——
I know I have so many times, and here's what fascinated me about today's conversation.
我们在屏幕上看到的那些完美打磨的对话，实际上可能阻碍我们进行真正有意义的交流。
Those perfectly polished exchanges that we see on screen might actually be holding us back from having truly meaningful conversations.
而我们正在进行的那些混乱不完美的对话，或许正是我们所需要的。
And the messy, imperfect conversations we're having, they might be exactly what we need.
我是说，如果更好的对话关键不在于更圆滑，而在于真正拥抱真实人际连接自然产生的美好混乱呢？
I mean, what if the key to better conversations wasn't about being more polished, but actually embracing the beautiful mess that real human connection naturally creates?
如果知道这个真相，能否从此改变你今后的每一次互动？
And what if knowing this one truth could transform every interaction you have from this moment forward?
与他人交谈时，我们很多人都觉得自己是唯一会感到焦虑、尴尬或总觉得哪里做得不对的人。
When speaking with others, so many of us feel like we're the only ones experiencing anxiety, awkwardness, or that nagging feeling that we're somehow doing it wrong.
但事实是这完全正常。
But the truth is that's not only completely normal.
这实际上表明你非常在意与他人的连接。
It's actually a sign that you care deeply about connecting with others.
今天的嘉宾是哈佛商学院教授艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯。
My guest today is Alison Woodbrooks, a professor at Harvard Business School.
她教授一门获奖课程《谈话的艺术》，并刚刚出版了引人入胜的新书《谈话：对话科学与做自己的艺术》。
She teaches an award winning course called talk and has just released her fascinating new book, talk, the science of conversation and the art of being ourselves.
她关于对话的开创性研究从《华尔街日报》到《科学美国人》都有报道。
And her groundbreaking research on conversation has been featured everywhere from The Wall Street Journal to Scientific American.
她在我们对话中分享的关于优质对话背后的科学知识，挑战了我很多固有认知。
And what she shared in our conversation about the science behind great conversations, it challenged a lot of what I thought I knew.
而我靠对话谋生已有近十四年了。
And I've been earning a big part of my living in conversation for close to fourteen years now.
比如，了解到面对面交谈产生真诚笑声的概率是数字对话的30倍；或者发现我们极力避免的那些尴尬时刻，可能正是建立真实连接的基石。
Like, learning that face to face conversations are 30 times more likely to generate genuine laughter than digital ones or discovering that those awkward moments we try so hard to avoid, they might actually be the things that are building blocks of authentic connection.
通过她卓越的谈话框架，艾莉森揭示了我们在对话方式上的微小转变，如何能带来人际关系和归属感的深刻变化。
And through her remarkable talk framework, Alison reveals how small shifts in how we approach conversations can lead to profound changes in our relationships and sense of belonging.
等你听到她关于'什么'问题与'为什么'问题隐藏力量的发现时，会更惊讶。
And wait until you also hear what she discovered about the hidden power of what questions versus why questions.
非常期待与你分享这次对话。
So excited to share this conversation with you.
我是乔纳森·菲尔兹，这里是'美好生活计划'。
I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
真的很期待深入探讨这个话题。
Really just excited to dive into this topic.
你知道，这个话题对我来说既有趣又切身。
You know, it's interesting and personal for me also.
我算是那种会举手承认自己性格内向的人。
I am somebody who would sort of, like, raise my hand and and identify as being introverted.
我从小就是个社交谨慎的孩子，总是以审慎的方式加入对话，通常不会第一个开口说话。
I was the kid growing up where I was socially cautious, and I would move into conversations in a very sort of like discerning way often not being the first one to talk.
而如今我却以共同创造对话为生，已经持续了十多年。
And I've now found myself earning my living through co creating conversations for the, you know, over a dozen years.
这种转变很有趣，我一直在思考其中的演变过程。
So it's an interesting sort of like flip, and I've kind of wondered what's been the evolution there.
阅读你的著作让我开始真正理解其中的一些缘由。
So reading your work started to really help me understand a little bit of what was going on.
不过，你探讨的一个观点是：许多人都存在某种形式的对话焦虑。
But, you know, one of the things that you explore is this notion that so many people have some form of conversational anxiety.
是的。
Yes.
你刚才分享了很多内容，我想和你深入探讨一下：从小自认为内向者，到贯穿整个人生，这种自我认同的感受是怎样的？以及随着年岁增长，你在私下和公开场合积累了如此丰富的与人交流经验后，对交谈的内心感受是否发生了变化？
There's so much that you just shared that I wanna unpack with you about what it felt like to be to sort of self identify as an introvert, as a kid, and as a person your whole life, and how your inner feelings about conversation have evolved or not evolved as you've gotten older and as you've gotten so much experience talking to people both privately and now publicly.
当你还是个内向者时，你是否感到社交焦虑？或者在与他人互动时，会担心事情进展不顺利吗？
Did you feel like when you were an introvert, did you feel social anxiety, or did you feel did you worry about things not going well when you interacted with other people?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我是说，小时候我可能不会用'社交焦虑'这个词来形容，但我总觉得自己与众不同——就像很多孩子那样。
I mean, I I don't think as a kid I would have labeled it social anxiety, but I always just I felt other, like so many kids do.
你明白吗？
You know?
部分原因在于我是个用不同视角看世界、以不同方式处世的孩子。我和许多同类人一样，成长在一个与我真正共鸣的家庭文化中，却身处一个并不适合我的社区和同龄人文化里。
And part of that was I was a kid who kinda saw the world differently, moved through the world differently, and I was like so many others again, sort of like being raised in a culture, in a family culture that actually really resonated with me, but in a sort of community culture and peer culture that wasn't really a good great fit for me.
这就好比你要把自己这个圆木桩硬塞进社会文化期待的方孔里——无论是在社交层面还是对话层面。
So it's like you have to fit yourself, your round peg into the square hole or the opposite there of what the culture expects of you, you know, on a social level, on a conversational level.
所以我当时是意识到这点的。
So I I was aware of it.
虽然年轻时我不会用'对话式社交焦虑'这样的标签来形容。
I wouldn't have labeled it, you know, conversational, social anxiety when I was younger.
这种现象你常见吗？
Is this something that you see a lot?
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
事实上，我是一名行为科学家，我最初的研究非常明确地聚焦于焦虑——甚至不是那种人们可能需要药物或大量治疗的重度焦虑，而是大多数人经常体验的中低程度焦虑，比如几乎每天、一天多次，常由社交场合或社交事物触发，害怕受到负面评价，独处时也会产生。
Actually, my I'm a behavioral scientist, and my my earliest research was very squarely focused on anxiety and not not even the very large magnitude anxiety that people might need medication or lots of therapy or something, but the sort of low to medium grade anxiety that most people feel a lot of the time, like most days, many times per day, often triggered by social encounters or social things, fear of negative social evaluation, but also when you're alone too.
还有其他让你感到焦虑的事情。
So other things that make you feel anxious.
我开始在各种不同情境下研究焦虑，比如谈判和意见交流。
And I started studying anxiety in lots of different contexts like negotiations and advice exchanges.
我们会向谁寻求建议？
Who do we go and seek advice from?
我们征求意见时会听信谁的话？
Who do we listen to when we ask for advice?
表演。
Performing.
公开演讲这类焦虑——天啊，很多人对公开演讲和其他类型的公开表演都感到非常焦虑。
So public speaking, that kind of anxiety, which, boy, everybody a lot of people feel a lot of anxiety about public speaking and other types of public performance.
在研究人们所有这些不同行为领域中的焦虑感受时，有一个现象异常清晰。
And in studying people's anxious feelings across all of these different behavioral domains, one resounding thing is so clear.
每个人都会经常感到焦虑。
Everybody feels anxious a lot of the time.
有时这是好事。
And sometimes it's good.
它表明你在乎某件事并希望它进展顺利。
It shows that you care about something and you want it to go well.
这表明你很聪明，你在思考如何为未来可能出现的糟糕情况做计划。
It shows that you're smart, that you're thinking about planning for the future scenarios of how things might go badly.
这也为你进行真正有效的重新构建奠定了基础。
And it also sets you up to do really effective reframes.
比如，如果你关心某件事并思考它可能如何发展，那意味着你也可以思考它如何顺利发展。
Like, if you care about something and you're thinking about how it might go, that means you could also think about how it could go well.
这正是我论文研究的核心——将焦虑重新定义为兴奋，不仅思考事情可能如何出错，还要思考它们可能如何顺利发展。
And that was very much what my dissertation research was about, was about reframing anxiety as excitement and thinking not only about how things might go terribly wrong, but about how they might go well.
这最终体现在皮克斯电影《头脑特工队2》的一个场景中，那些小助手们正在预测主角莱莉可能遭遇的各种糟糕情况。
And it ended up in a scene in the in Pixar's movie Inside Out two, where they're doing these little minions are doing projections about how everything might go badly for the main character Riley.
然后乐乐悄悄出现并说：不，你们需要预测这次冰球选拔赛或学校演出可能会如何顺利进行。
And then Joy sneaks in and is like, no, you need to do projections about how things could go well at this hockey tryout or, you know, at your school play.
这正是我广泛关注对话和社交世界各种现象的切入点——如果每个人都时刻感到焦虑，那么他们其实也在经历其他情绪，比如嫉妒、愤怒、压力和无聊（这是个重要但少有人讨论的情绪）。
And that was really my entry point into becoming very broadly interested in conversation and all things about the social world is like, hey, if everybody's feeling anxious about it all the time, oh, they're also feeling lots of other emotions too, like envy and anger and stress and boredom, which is a very big one that not a lot of people, think or talk about.
这些情绪在我们的日常对话中是如何表现的？
And how do all of those things play out in our conversations with each other?
知道其他人也有这种感觉真好，因为通常当你走进一个房间有这种感觉时，你脑海中的想法之一是：只有我这样。
It's great to know that other people feel this because I think oftentimes when you walk into a room and you feel this, one of the the thought bubbles in your head is, I'm the only one.
你看，其他人看起来都那么自在。
You know, everybody else seems so comfortable.
看看周围，每个人都在进行愉快的交谈。
Everyone, look at all these beautiful conversations happening all around me.
大家都充满活力地讲着故事，他们一定认识了几千年，或者天生就是讲故事的高手，而我是唯一不擅长这个的人。
Everyone's alive and they're telling stories and they must have known each other for thousands of years or like they're they're just natural storytellers and I'm the one who doesn't have that.
事实上，这就是你们谈论和写作的部分内容。
And in fact, so this is some of what you talk and write about.
某种程度上恰恰相反。
It's kind of the opposite.
你知道，就像是在思考这些事情。
You know, like, is thinking these things.
每个人都在思考这些事情。
Everybody is thinking these things.
即使是那些看起来极具魅力和自信的人，也有巨大的进步空间，同样会感到自己像个冒牌货。
Even the people who seem so charismatic and confident have tons of room for improvement are also feeling like imposters.
在我的课堂上，学生们设计了这个练习，题目叫'我是唯一一个...的人'。
In my class, my students designed this exercise where they it was called like, I'm the only one who blank.
他们会各自填上'我是唯一一个...的人'，你知道，可能是关于身份认同的事，或者比如'我是唯一一个不想谈论私募股权的人'。
And they would all fill it in with, I feel like I'm the only one who, you know and it could be something about your identity, but it's or it's like, I'm the only one who doesn't wanna talk about, you know, private equity.
我是唯一一个对喝酒不太感兴趣的人，每个人都可以根据自己的身份和兴趣填写不同的内容。
I'm the only one who's not that interested in drinking alcohol or everybody can fill in that blank with different things about who they are and what they're interested in.
当你感到格格不入，而别人看起来那么自信、口齿伶俐，似乎玩得很开心时，很容易忘记这一点。
And it's so easy to forget that when you feel on the outside and other people seem so confident and articulate and, like, they're having a great time.
很容易觉得自己像个局外人。
It's so easy to feel like you're on the outside of it.
但实际上，每个人都觉得自己像个冒牌货。
But actually, everybody feels like an impostor.
知道这一点其实还挺让人安心的。
It's a little bit it's it's comforting to actually know that.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像，好吧。
Like, okay.
所以实际上，我们都是怪人，这反而让我们都不算怪人了。
So actually, we're all the oddballs, which makes us all not the oddballs.
没错。
Exactly.
当你描述自己小时候时，你说你以不同的方式与世界互动。
When you were describing yourself as a kid, you said you moved through the world differently.
是啊。
Yeah.
而我心里在想，和什么不同？
And in my mind, I thought, different than what?
和谁不同？
Different than who?
他们是以与你不同的方式与世界互动，或许该感到被排斥的是他们。
They were moving through the world different than you, and maybe they should have been feeling othered.
对吧？
Right?
但我认为，你知道，关于谁觉得自己是局内人、谁是局外人，会形成地方性规范，而我们应对这些的方式都大不相同。
But I think, you know, local norms emerge about who feels like they're on the inside, who feels like they're on the outside, and and we all cope with that very very very differently.
我在这些场合中意识到的另一件事是，当你看到别人互动时感到焦虑和无所适从，有个很安慰人的事实是——其实没人真的在进行精彩对话。
The other thing that I've realized in these in these situations when you see other people interacting and you can feel so anxious and ill equipped to deal with it, Something that I think is very comforting to know is, like, nobody's actually having great conversations.
当你观察真实对话时，尤其是大规模对话，我们会一次性查看成千上万的文字记录。
When you look at real conversations, especially very large scale, we look at transcripts of thousands at a time.
它们无一像情景喜剧、电影或甚至播客中那样整洁、迷人、流畅的剧本——因为大多数都经过深度剪辑。
None of them resemble the tidy, charming, smooth scripts that we see on sitcoms or in movies or even that we hear on podcasts because most of them have been heavily edited.
真实的对话非常混乱。
Real conversations are very messy.
每个瞬间都闪现着人们转瞬即逝的念头：啊我刚说错话了、哎呀我们撞车了、哦你没听懂我、你想要的和我不一样、然后我又误解了你。
And in every moment, there are these little fleeting glimmers of people feeling like, oh, I just made a mistake and oh, we just collided and oh, you didn't understand me and oh, you want something different than I and then I misunderstood you.
所以这些小小的碰撞就这样无情地在各处不断上演。
And so it's just all these little collisions unfolding sort of relentlessly everywhere.
真实对话更像是列车失事，而非顺畅的邂逅。
Real conversations are more like a train wreck than a smooth encounter.
我特别喜欢你的描述方式，因为这某种程度上关乎期望管理。
I love the way you described that also because part of this is about expectation setting.
你提到了某种规范。
You mentioned sort of, like, norms.
我们常常看到健身界或时尚界展示的模特形象，那些经过修图软件处理的完美画面。
And we so often, like, we'll look at the fitness world or the fashion world and the models that are being presented and the imagery there and, you know, the airbrushing and Photoshop and all this stuff.
这就像在给人们设定一个不可能达到的标准。
And we're like, this is like we're setting an impossible standard for people to meet.
直到真正思考你研究的内容前，我还在想：我们是否也在给人们设定不可能实现的对话标准？
Until I really started thinking about the work that you're doing, you know, I was like, well, are we actually setting an impossible conversational standard for people?
比如我超爱《了不起的麦瑟尔夫人》这类电视剧。
I mean, I love TV shows like The Marvelous Miss Maisel.
要知道，艾米·谢尔曼-帕拉迪诺的剧本写得如此迅捷，如此机智。
Know, like Amy Sherman Palladino's writing is so quick, so witty.
就像施了魔法一样，让你目不转睛。
It's just like casting a spell that you just don't wanna look away from.
我们经常在那些精心编剧、演技精湛、节奏明快又机智的媒体作品中看到这种魅力。
And we see that in really heavily scripted and beautifully acted, fast paced, witty media all the time.
我们会想，真希望我也能那样对答如流。
We're like, oh, I wish I could relate that way.
真希望我也能那样说话。
I wish I could speak that way.
真希望我也能如此机敏风趣，但现实中没人能做到。
I wish I could be so quick witted and funny, and nobody is.
要知道，这些都是高度编排的，精心设计的。
Like, this is all highly scripted, you know, staged.
编剧可能花了数日、数周甚至数月来打磨这个剧本，然后演员——她叫什么来着？
The writer has spent, like, week days, weeks, months honing this script, And then the actor, what's her name?
瑞秋·布罗斯纳汉？
Rachel Brosnahan?
布罗斯纳汉。
Brosnahan.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
她可能已经拍了大概八条，就为了确保不会说错台词，即使这些优美的词句都是为她精心准备的。
Has probably done, I don't know, eight takes to make sure she's not stumbling over her words, even delivering these beautiful words that have been written for her.
我认为看到这样的对话，听到这样的演讲是如此迷人。
I think seeing conversation like that, seeing speech like that is so enchanting.
而它如此迷人的部分原因在于我们做不到这样。
And part of what's so enchanting about it is that it we can't do it.
我们无法自然地做到这一点。
We can't do it naturally.
我们的大脑不是超级计算机。
Our brains are not supercomputers.
我们无法在即兴时如此完美地组织脑海中的内容。
We cannot curate the contents of our mind so beautifully on the fly.
所以当我们看到虚构世界或虚构人物，比如那些看似机智聪明、妙语连珠的角色时，这对我们来说是种向往。
And so when we see pretend worlds or pretend people, like fictional characters seeming so witty and clever and saying all of these beautiful things, it's aspirational to us.
我给哈佛学生举的一个例子是：当你想到最喜欢的喜剧演员表演单口喜剧时，我们都会想'真希望我在日常对话中也能这么风趣'。
One of the examples that I give to, my students at Harvard is when you think of your favorite comedian and doing their stand up routine, I think when we think of sort of like, oh, I wish I could be that funny in conversation.
我们都喜欢幽默的人。
We all love people who are funny.
但你必须记住，在单口喜剧表演中，他们可能已经打磨那个剧本、那套表演好几个月甚至好几年了。
But you have to remember that in a stand up routine, they've been honing that work, script, that one way show for probably months or years.
他们反复思考过那些笑料。
They've been thinking about those jokes.
他们在无数场演出中反复练习，观察哪些能逗笑观众，哪些不能，效果如何。
They've practiced them across many many shows to see what gets a laugh, what doesn't get a laugh, what lands, how does it land.
如果你看到同一个喜剧演员坐下来做现场采访，尤其是未经剪辑的，你会对他们逗笑对话伙伴的能力大为失望。
If you see that same comedian sit down and do a live interview, especially if it were not edited, you would be far less enchanted with their ability to make their conversation partner laugh.
我们都见过这种情况。
And we've all seen that.
对吧？
Right?
就像，我们都看过深夜秀的采访，然后意识到，哦，确实如此。
Like, we've all seen people interviewed on late night shows and you realize, oh, yeah.
他们可能风趣幽默，但并非持续不断地令人捧腹。
They're like funny and fun, but they're not relentlessly hilarious.
他们也没有一个接一个精心打磨的故事和层出不穷的妙招。
And they don't have these beautiful polished story after story and and move after move.
这非常不现实。
It's just very unrealistic.
在我的书中，我们称之为'自然性神话'。
In my book, we call it the myth of naturalness.
是啊。
Yeah.
你看到其他人显得魅力四射或妙趣横生，看起来那么完美，就像《了不起的麦瑟尔夫人》里的女主角，但那都不是真实的。
You see other people seeming charming or seeming so funny, seeming so polished, seeming like missus May the marvelous missus Maisel, And it's just not real.
对吧？
Right?
要么是经过艺术加工和反复打磨的，要么你会发现那只是整个对话中短暂的一瞬。
Like it's either fictionalized and has been worked on, or you realize, oh, actually that was just like one brief moment in the conversation.
然后接下来的情况就很混乱，他们的笑话没达到效果，而且，你知道，还发生了其他奇怪的事情，他们说了些后悔的话。
And then like for the rest of it, it was very messy and their joke didn't land and, you know, this other weird thing happened and they said something they regretted.
而我们往往倾向于忽视这种混乱。
And we have a tendency to sort of overlook that messiness.
但当我们想到那些非常出色或看起来非常出色的人时，我们会给自己施加压力，要求自己也做到那样。
But when we think of people who are so fabulous or seem so fabulous, we we put pressure on ourselves to be the same way.
没错。
Right.
而这种自我施加的压力是非常危险的。
And that's a very dangerous pressure to put on yourself.
对。
Right.
因为突然间，我们设定了一个不可能达到的标准。
Because all of sudden, we're setting up an impossible standard to meet.
明白吗？
You know?
然后如果我们一直失败的话...是啊。
And then if we just keep perpetually failing at it Yeah.
这就会形成一种恶性循环，让我们感觉更糟，因为我们想着，好吧...
Then it makes it it creates like this negative spiral where we feel even worse because we're like, alright.
我以为也许我可以练习这个，或者，这就是我应该做的，我不断尝试却屡屡失败。
I thought maybe I could practice this or, like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and I keep trying and I'm falling flat and falling flat.
现在，你知道，如果你一开始就有焦虑，随着不断重复尝试永远无法在那个级别上成功的事情，这种焦虑可能会逐渐加剧。
And now, you know, like, if you had anxiety in the beginning, it's just gonna start to probably ratchet up a little bit as you're going because you keep failing repeatedly at something that you will never succeed at at that level.
这根本不真实。
It's just not real.
确实如此。
Exactly.
这不是真实的。
It's not real.
即便是将你脑海中的想法组织成语言的过程，我们也无法流畅地完成。
And even the process of taking the thoughts in your brain and formulating them into words, we're not able to do that fluently.
你在执行一项疯狂的筛选任务。
You're doing a crazy curation task.
你实际上无法说出脑海中所有的想法，当然，你也可能会错误表达你想说的内容和思考的事情。
You can't actually say everything that's in your mind, and, of course, you're gonna misarticulate what you mean to say and what you're thinking about.
所以我们需要对它更宽容些。
And and we gotta go easier on it.
我们需要为自己不够完美而找到宽恕。
We need to find grace for ourselves for not being perfect.
相应地，也要对其他会说大量违心话、后悔话、怪话和开糟糕玩笑的人给予宽恕。
And, you know, as a corollary, find grace for other people who are also gonna say tons of stuff that they don't mean or that they regret and weird things and make bad jokes.
这确实需要一种对话文化中的宽容精神——我担心如今许多对话平台都不是培养宽容与谅解的良好环境。
And it really requires a sort of conversational culture of forgiveness that I I worry that many outlets for conversation these days is not a good environment for fostering forgiveness and grace.
你还提到了一点我认为非常重要，值得强调，就是这种观念：好吧。
You also mentioned something that that I think is really important to highlight, which is this notion that, okay.
所以我们观看的那些对话，它们很有趣。
So those conversations that we watch, they're fun.
它们很有趣。
They're entertaining.
你用的词是迷人。
They're the word you used was enchanting.
对吧？
Right?
我们很喜欢。
And we love it.
我们会沉浸其中。
We get lost in the moment.
很俏皮。
It's playful.
很有趣。
It's fun.
很愉快。
It's delightful.
但你也说过，现实中真正的良好对话并不是这样的。
And but what you said also is that that's not how good conversations actually happen in real life.
比如，我们不会这样与他人建立联系。
Like, we don't connect with other people.
那些你遇到某人的对话，比如晚上8点到凌晨3点，你会难以置信自己才认识这个人8小时，而不是将近25年。
Those conversations that happen where you meet somebody, you know, like, at 08:00 at night and 03:00 in the morning, you just you can't believe that you've known this person for eight hours instead of nearly twenty five years.
这并不是因为对话很完美，或者你们的语言表达精确又快速。
It's not because it was a perfect conversation and you're like the linguistics were precise and fast.
这是因为你们一起磕磕绊绊、手忙脚乱，把事情搞砸了。
It's it's because you're stumbling and fumbling together and messing up.
我是说，我曾经在台上面对数千观众演讲时突然大脑空白，惊慌失措，心想天啊，我现在在台上表现得很糟糕。
I mean, I've been on stage speaking to thousands of people and gone blank and freaked out and being like, oh my god, I'm not perfect on stage now.
然后他转向一位观众说：我完全不知道接下来要讲什么。
And then later he turned to an audience member and said, I have no idea what's next.
我刚才说到哪儿了？
What was I talking about?
而且观众会在台下大声提醒你。
And, like, they'll yell up at you.
我们正在讨论这个。
We're talking about this.
然后突然间，观众其实都站在你这边——只要你放下包袱，展现真实的自己。
And, like and and then all of a sudden, the audience is actually with you until you just let go and be human.
你害怕被人看到那样的状态。
You're terrified of being seen that way.
我懂。
I know.
我觉得我人生大部分时间——相信很多人也是——都在与这种内在的完美主义斗争。
I think I've spent a lot of my life, and I'm sure a lot of people have, of sort of battling this inner perfectionism.
在人生的某个阶段你会意识到，这不仅是错误的目标，更是背道而驰的目标。
And at some point in your life, you realize not only is it not the right goal, it's the wrong goal.
事实上，如果你的终极目标是与人建立连接，完美主义反而会把人们推开。
Actually, if your ultimate goal is to connect with people, perfection actually repels people away.
对吧？
Right?
就是，它没有共鸣感。
Like, it's not relatable.
也不讨人喜欢。
It's not endearing.
当我们想到那些让我们真正爱上的电影主角时，他们总是充满缺点。
When we think about, like, protagonists in movies who we actually fall in love with, they are always so fallible.
对吧？
Right?
他们总在犯错，我们看着他们犯错并产生共鸣，然后就会为他们加油。
They're always making mistakes, and we see them make those mistakes and we can relate to them, and then we're cheering for them.
我们希望看到他们能克服某种挑战或奇怪的困难。
We want them to sort of overcome a challenge or some sort of weird difficulty.
对现实中的人也是如此。
The same is true for real people.
比如，当你看到别人犯错、挣扎、经历成功与失败时，会更容易产生共鸣。
Like, it's much easier to relate to other people when you see them making mistakes and struggling and having triumphs and and losses.
所以我们必须对抗这种'自然性'的迷思，这种我们常常强加给自己的完美标准——尤其在对话中，这根本是不可能达到的。
And so we really have to battle against this myth of naturalness, this sort of perfection standard that we often hold ourselves to, especially in conversation that is it's just an impossible thing to achieve.
这很有趣对吧？因为对话还存在不同场景。
And it's interesting, right, because there are also different contexts for conversations.
比如和朋友闲聊的场景，或者试图结交新朋友的对话场景。
There's, you know, the just hanging out with friends type of conversation or trying to make new friends conversation.
存在潜在的浪漫兴趣情境。
There's a potential romantic interest context.
从工作、职业场景来看，从最初的面试或完全改变现实的面试经历，到进入一个组织后试图理解其文化，比如这里什么是得体的，我该如何融入其中。
There's the work, the professional context ranging from the initial interview or the interview experience where it's a completely altered reality to then being in an organization and trying to understand their culture and, like, what is appropriate here and how do I fit into that.
广告之后我们马上回来。
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
通过你所有的研究和工作中，你实际上已经开发出了一个框架，你简称为'话题、轻松与善意'，这帮助我们理解，好的。
You have through all your research and your work, there's a framework that effectively you've developed that you shorthand as topics asking levity and kindness, which helps us understand, okay.
那么我们该如何以一种感觉良好的方式来做这件事，让我们能够进入所有这些不同的情境，并对我们与他人互动的方式感到满意？
So how do we do this in a way that feels good, that where we can kind of, like, step into all these different contexts and feel good about the way that we're actually interacting with others?
所以我希望能从那个T（话题）开始，稍微详细讲解一下这个框架。
So I'd love to kinda walk through that framework a bit starting out with that t topics.
你认为内容确实很重要。
Content really matters, you argue.
请详细解释一下。
Take me into this.
当然。
Absolutely.
学习关于话题和对话的知识真的改变了我的世界观和思维方式，无论是作为科学家还是作为一个普通人，我希望这对其他人也有帮助。
Learning about topics and conversation has really changed my worldview and my mindset myself both as a scientist and just as a human being, and I hope it's helpful to other people too.
我认为长期以来，我们倾向于在对话层面上思考困难对话。
I think for a long time, we've had a tendency to think of difficult conversations almost at, the conversation level.
对吧？
Right?
比如，哎呀，我得给出严厉的反馈。
Like, oh, I have to give hard feedback.
那将会是一场艰难的对话。
That's gonna be a difficult conversation.
或者，哎呀，我的孩子惹麻烦了，我得和他谈谈这件事。
Or, oh, my kid's in trouble and I need to talk to him about it.
那会很困难。
That's gonna be difficult.
我需要协商我的薪资。
I need to negotiate my salary.
那将是一场艰难的对话。
That's gonna be a difficult conversation.
当你开始查看真实对话的文字记录时，你会发现即使是艰难对话也不会全程都艰难，或者说它们本不该如此。
When you start looking at transcripts of real conversations, what you realize is even difficult conversations aren't difficult the whole time, or they shouldn't be.
实际上，每场对话都像是由一系列主题相关的对话片段组成的瀑布流。
Actually, every conversation unfolds as a cascade of, like, chunks of topics of thematically related turns.
所以我们现在正在讨论这杯茶和谈话框架。
So you and I are now talking about this tea and the talk framework.
之前我们讨论过完美主义在对话中为何如此困难，我们给自己施加了压力。
Before we were talking about how perfectionism is hard in conversation, we put pressure on ourselves.
所以你会发现我们的大脑非常擅长完成这种分块处理任务。
So you can our brains are remarkably good at doing this chunking task.
我们的大脑很擅长说，哦，好吧。
Our brains are good at saying, oh, okay.
我们刚刚讨论了完美主义。
Well, we just talked about perfectionism.
现在我们要进入话题部分，接下来会转向提问环节。
Now we're moving into topics, and then next we're gonna move into asking.
我们可以利用大脑天生擅长的这种组织机制。
And we can use that organizing mechanism that our brains are very naturally good at.
我们可以让它发挥作用。
We can make it useful.
当你想到一场艰难的对话时，我觉得很有力量的是，也许只有一两个话题会比较棘手，因为你们可能对某件事的目标截然不同。
And when you think about a difficult conversation, what I find very empowering is, oh, maybe there's one topic or two topics that are gonna be tricky because you maybe you have very different goals you want from something.
但我们会把这些话题穿插在另外九个很棒的话题中，这样整场对话就不会显得那么可怕。
But we're gonna put that we're gonna couch those topics among nine other really great topics so the whole thing doesn't have to be this horrifying prospect.
当我让人们回顾他们进行过的对话时，如果你让他们像写剧本一样重述，他们是做不到的。
When I ask people to look back at the conversations they've had, if you ask people to rewrite it at like a script, they would not be able to do it.
我们的大脑不擅长记住对话顺序、谁说了什么、具体用词和表达方式，但非常擅长记住我们讨论过哪些话题，就像记住一个要点列表。
Our brains are not good at remembering sequencing or who said what and in what words and in what way, but our brains are very good at remembering what topics we covered, almost like a bulleted list.
因此，在对话展开的过程中，我们可以利用这种分块能力来主动管理话题。
And so while a conversation is unfolding, we can use that chunking ability to actually actively manage topics.
你需要做的是随时把握：这个话题合适吗？
What you wanna do is keep your hand on the pulse of, is this a good topic?
我们是否在共同享受这个话题？
Are we enjoying this together?
我自己是否乐在其中？
Am I enjoying it?
我的搭档享受这个过程吗？
Is my partner enjoying it?
我们取得进展了吗？
Are we making progress?
我们是否在互相学习？
Are we learning from each other?
我们是否投入其中？
Are we leaning in?
我们看起来专注吗？
Are we seeming engaged?
如果你或你的搭档显得不投入，我们应该果断切换到其他话题。
If you don't seem engaged or if your partner doesn't seem engaged, we should assertively switch to something else.
对吧？
Right?
这是个有意义的信号。
That's a meaningful signal.
如果出现长时间停顿、尴尬的笑声或沉默，如果有人开始重复已经说过的话题内容，这些都是该切换话题的可靠信号。
If there are long pauses and awkward laughter, awkward silences, if someone starts repeating things they've already said on that topic, those are all, reliable signs that it's time to switch to something else.
所以这次谈话的主要收获就是：要更果断地切换话题，直到找到让双方都真正投入的内容，感觉‘啊，我们现在真的聊得很投机’。
And so the that's the main takeaway from this tea is for topics is just to switch topics more assertively until you find something that really makes both people lean in and feel like, oh, we're really getting this right right now.
另一个实用技巧是：话题分块的启发式方法，你可以在对话开始前就运用它。
Another helpful tip is that this chunking heuristic of topics, you can use it before the conversation begins.
这某种程度上呼应了‘自然性’这个迷思。
And this sort of calls back to this myth of naturalness.
很多人认为好的对话需要现场即兴发挥，应该是在当下自然产生的。
A lot of people think that good conversation needs to be constructed spontaneously on the spot and that it should just sort of come to you in the moment.
但你会发现，正因为它如此混乱和困难，提前稍作准备能带来很大帮助。
What you realize though is that because it's so messy and hard, a little bit of forethought can go a long way.
所以提前准备几个话题，特别是在你提到的某些场景中，比如第一次见新朋友、参加工作会议、见到许久未见的老友或不那么熟悉的人时，预先想好两三个可以聊的小话题会带来诸多好处。
And so prepping a couple topics ahead of time, especially in some of the scenarios you mentioned, Jonathan, like meeting new people for the first time, going into a work meeting, seeing an old friend you haven't seen in a while or someone you don't know that well, thinking about two or three little bullet points of thing topics you could raise with them does so many good things.
这会让你感觉不那么焦虑，因为你总是知道对话可以往哪个方向进行。
It makes you feel less anxious because you always have an idea of where the conversation can go next.
它能减少表达不畅。
It reduces disfluencies.
比如口吃、嗯、啊、长停顿这些都会减少，因为当你知道话题走向时，就能更流畅地过渡到下一个主题。
So stutters, ums, uhs, long pauses, those go away a bit because you're much smoother moving on to the next topic when you know where you can go.
它能避免脱口而出。
It reduces blurting.
很多时候我们在对话中其实有些事想保密，但有时会不小心说漏嘴。
So a lot of the time when we go into conversation, there actually are things that we wanna keep to ourselves, and sometimes we sort of just blurt them out.
但如果提前考虑过，你就能更好地准备分享那些愿意透露的内容，同时避免说出不想说的事。
But if you think about it ahead of time, then you're better prepped to disclose the things you feel comfortable sharing and and and not disclose the things that you don't want to.
所以话题准备确实很有帮助。
So topic prep can be quite helpful as well.
我很喜欢这个建议。
I love that idea.
我顺着这个思路想到的是，我完全能理解它的价值所在。
And where my brain is going with it also is I I absolutely see the value of it.
我觉得，你知道，如果你觉得没问题的话。
And I think, you know, if you're like, okay.
我要去参加一个活动。
So I'm going to an event.
我要去参加一个关于x、y和z的会议。
I'm going to a conference, and the conference is about x, y, and z.
也许我可以准备一些关于x和z的话题，但可能也会涉及其他方面。
And maybe I can prep some things to talk about in the context of x, and z, but also maybe even outside of that.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know?
不过我的疑问是。
Here's my curiosity though.
有没有过度准备的风险？
Is there a risk of over prepping?
是否存在对准备内容过于执着的风险？
Is there a risk of actually being too committed to your prep?
当你描述这个时，我脑海里突然想到的是，我正在研究一个多年来研究采访者的人，那些传奇的采访者。
And and what was popping into my mind as you were describing this is, you know, I'm studying somebody who who has studied interviewers, legendary interviewers for years.
拉里·金是历史上最传奇的采访者之一，他以所谓的'刻意保持天真'而闻名。
Larry King is one of the most legendary interviewers in history, and he was he was famous for what he called being intentionally naive.
他会开始一场有时持续很久的对话，对象是世界上最重要的人物——这些人物被地球上所有人采访过，或者是他知之甚少的人。
He would enter a conversation that would sometimes last for a really long time with the highest profile people in the world that had been interviewed by everyone on the planet or just by people who he knew very little about.
他不想了解太多关于他们的事，因为他觉得那样就不像是自然的对话了。
He didn't wanna know a lot about them because he felt like it wouldn't be a natural conversation.
你知道吗？
You know?
我在准备对话时采取了一种折中的方式。
And I sort of have a middle ground in the way that I prepare for conversations.
我不把这类事情称为面试，因为我更喜欢自然的交谈。
And I don't call things like this interviews because I really just prefer to have a natural conversation.
随着时间推移我学到，对我来说话题准备有一条界限，越过它反而会破坏轻松有趣的对话。
I've learned over time that there's a line of preparation for me in terms of topics where if I go past it, it's not constructive for just a fun and engaging conversation.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
准备过度就会变成写剧本，而不是话题准备了。
You can go so much you can it becomes scripting rather than topic prep.
精彩的对话是深思熟虑、专业知识和经验的平衡。
The great conversation is a balance of forethought and expertise and experience.
对吧？
Right?
即使你没有专门为某次对话做准备，但如果你过去有过类似对话，某种程度上那也是准备。
Like, even if you're not prepping specifically for that conversation, if you've had conversations like that in the past, in a way that's prep also.
对不对？
Right?
这就是重复训练。
It's a reps.
这就是练习。
It's it's practice.
这是前期准备与真正临场发挥的结合。
It's a combination of that prep and then really being present.
对吧？
Right?
这样你才能灵活应变、富有创意，真正倾听伴侣当下的心声，并对他们给予的反馈做出真实回应。
So you can be flexible and creative and really listen to your partner in the moment and really be responsive to what they're giving you.
因为过度准备会让你死守剧本，导致无法真正回应伴侣即时的互动。
Because of course you could over prepare and then stick too tightly to your script, which would lead you to not really be responding to what your partner is giving you in the moment.
爵士音乐家查理·帕克有句名言：'你必须尽可能多练习、练习、再练习，但登上舞台时就要全部放下，尽情释放。'
The jazz musician Charlie Parker has this great quote where he's like, you know, you gotta practice, practice, practice as much as you can, but when you get up on the stage, you just let it all go and just wail.
我认为对话也是如此。
And I think that's true for conversation too.
就像，准备、准备、再准备。
Like, prep, prep, prep.
但一旦身处其中，就要全然放下，真正聚焦于伴侣，时刻感知情绪温度。
But once you're there, let it all go and really focus in on your partner and keep your hand on the temperature gauge.
他们感受如何？
How are they feeling?
他们在想什么？
What are they thinking about?
他们对什么显得兴奋？
What do they seem excited about?
你自己又对什么感到兴奋？
What are you feeling excited about?
他们觉得无聊吗？
Are they bored?
你需要向前看吗？
Do you need to move on?
这些认知非常重要，而且实际上更容易做到。
Those perceptions are so important, and they're actually easier to do.
如果你不必担心接下来要说什么，就能更轻松地倾听和关注伴侣。
It's easier to listen and pay attention to your partner if you're not also worried about what you're gonna talk about next.
对吧？
Right?
这叫做认知卸载——你把对话中需要耗费的部分脑力提前处理好了。
So you're not it's called cognitive offloading when you take some of the mental effort that you have to do during a conversation and do it beforehand.
因为这样能让你在当下更好地享受共处时光。
Because in the moment, then it allows you to have a better time together.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得这非常有道理。
That makes a lot of sense to me.
我们刚才其实已经涉及到你缩写词的第三部分了，不过让我们稍微退回来一点。
And we kinda dipped into the third part of your acronym, but but let's back up a little bit.
我们待会儿会重新回到这个话题。
We'll we'll move back into it.
所以第二个字母A代表询问（asking）。
So the second letter is a for asking.
这实际上关乎质疑，关乎提问，我发现这既能引人入胜，又充满风险。
And this is really about about questioning, about asking questions, which can be really engaging but also fraught, I found.
请再详细说说这一点。
So take me into this a bit more.
是的。
Yeah.
提问是我们转换话题最常用的方式。
Asking questions is the most common way that we switch between topics.
比如我想开启新话题时问：你看过《权力的游戏》吗？
So if I wanna move to a new one and I say, have you seen Game of Thrones?
对吧？
Right?
突然间，我们就转向了另一个方向。
Like, all of a sudden, we're off in another direction.
通过追问，我们也能更深入地探讨某个话题。
They're also the way that we get deeper on a certain topic by asking follow-up questions.
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它们非常强大，乔纳森，这你是知道的。
They're so very powerful, Jonathan, which you know.
这某种程度上利用了只有实时对话才能实现的互动力量。
It is sort of tapping the power of interactivity that's only possible in live conversation.
这确实是了解对方观点的唯一方式。
It's really the only way to tease out your partner's perspective.
行为科学中有大量研究表明人们在换位思考方面表现得多糟糕。
There's so much work in behavioral science showing how bad people are at perspective taking.
这种认为我能猜透你想法或感受的想法。
This idea that I could guess what you're thinking or feeling.
最好的方法其实是直接问你，你想聊些什么？
The best way to do that is actually to ask you, what would you like to talk about?
你感觉怎么样？
How are you feeling?
你想吃午饭吗？
Do you want lunch?
你饿了吗？
Are you hungry?
人们可以直接告诉你。
And people can just tell you directly.
所以最直接的反馈就是多提问。
So the sort of top line feedback is just to ask more questions.
理想情况下，不要在一场对话中一个问题都不问——这种情况比我们愿意承认的要常见得多。
Ideally, don't walk away from a conversation having asked zero questions, which happens much more often than we'd like to admit.
我有个职业红娘朋友，她说过：千万别做零提问者。
I have a professional matchmaker friend that I've worked with who she said, just don't be a ZQ.
这就像约会时一个问题都不问的人，尤其是在约会时。
This is like a a zero questioner on a date, especially at a date.
对吧？
Right?
你们明明有那么多需要互相了解的地方。
Like, you have so much to learn about each other.
所以不问问题其实是个非常严重的失礼行为，一个大大的错误。
And so not asking questions is is a really huge faux pas, a big a big error there.
但一旦你掌握了'多提问'这个首要建议后，如何有效提问其实还有很多细微差别。
But then once you get past this top line advice of asking more questions, there's a lot more nuance about how to do that well.
提问是有技巧的。
There are great question types.
有些提问模式很出色，也有些提问方式不太理想，我想你刚才也略有暗示。
There are great patterns of questions, and there are less great patterns of of question asking, which I think you were hinting at a bit.
这很有趣。
It is interesting.
对吧？
Right?
因为我想稍微探讨一下以确保理解，你说的是我们提问有助于建立融洽关系，从而为信任和敞开心扉打开大门。
Because in part of what I wanna tease out a little bit to make sure I understand, like, what you were saying is that, yeah, we wanna ask questions because that's part of what helps build rapport, and then that opens the door to, you know, like, trust and vulnerability.
正是这些建立了人与人之间的联系。
That's what builds the connection.
但与此同时，如果我们不问问题，就是在做假设。
But at the same time, if we're not asking questions, we're making assumptions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这些假设往往大错特错。
And oftentimes, those assumptions are just really, really wrong.
这时就存在两种对话：未说出口的内心对话，和实际发生的言语交流。
And there's a conversation that's going on that's not spoken, and then there's the spoken conversation.
我在想，某种程度上这种渴望是否就是要将那些东西合为一体。
I wonder if sort of like part of the aspiration is to bring those into the same thing.
你知道，就是真正把脑海里的想法泡泡拿出来，让它们成为实际对话的一部分，而不是仅仅因为我是八十年代的孩子就默认存在这些想法。
You know, like, just really take the thought bubbles out of your head and make them a part of the actual spoken conversation instead of just assuming there's because I'm a kid of the eighties.
有一部经典电影叫《Better Off Dead》，约翰·库萨克主演的。
There's this iconic movie called Better Off Dead with John Cusack.
如果你从没看过这个片段，你一定会为它着迷的。
If you've never seen this clip, you would geek out over this.
大概就三十秒长。
It's like thirty seconds long.
快去查查。
Look this up.
《Better Off Dead》。
Better Off Dead.
直接谷歌搜索，比如'尴尬对话场景'或'尴尬野餐场景'。
Just Google, like, the awkward conversation scene or the awkward picnic scene.
我等不及要看了。
I can't wait.
场景就是，你知道，他和另一个人面对面坐在野餐桌旁，然后开始出现他们想象对方通过摸鼻子之类动作想要传达的想法泡泡。
And it's just like, you know, him and this other person sitting across from picnic table from him and starting to have the thought bubbles of what they're thinking the other person is trying to transmit to them by like rubbing their nose or doing this.
一定要看看那个场景。
And it's like, watch that.
你会觉得，我们每天都在和人这样互动。
You're like, we're doing this all day every day with people.
我们以为正在进行的对话，其实根本不存在。
And the conversations that we think we're having, we're just not.
我们以为他们在想的事情，其实他们并没有在想。
The things we think they're thinking, they're not.
如果我们把所有事情都摊开来说会怎样？
And what happens if we just lay it all out there?
嗯，我们可以试着把所有事情都摊开来说，但即使你做到极致，每次说话都提问并得到回答，我们仍然无法完全了解一个人的生活。
Well and we can try to lay it all out there, but, like, even if you take it to an extreme, even if you're asking a question every time you talk and they're answering it, we still cannot get close to having full information about somebody's life.
对吧？
Right?
我有一个同卵双胞胎姐姐，我对她生活中的经历知道得很多。
I have an identical twin sister, and there's so much I know about what she's experienced in her life.
我经常能预感到她的感受或她会做出什么决定，因为她在很多方面和我有着相同的大脑和身体，但我仍然经常猜错。
There's so much I can anticipate about how she's feeling or what her decisions are gonna be because she has the same, like, brain as me in in many ways, same body as me, but I still get it wrong a lot of the time.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我根本不可能知道她开车来我家的路上差点撞到一只火鸡，或者那天她在工作中过得很糟糕，因为她的某个同事做了一件微妙的事情。我们就是无法了解每个人的一切，无论问多少问题。
Like, I can't possibly know that she almost hit a turkey on her drive over to my house or that she had a really bad day at work that day, and because of this subtle thing that one of her colleagues did, like, we just can't know everything about everybody no matter how many questions we ask.
所以我们只能试着更接近完全了解对方，才能真正认识彼此。
And so we should we kinda we just gotta try and get a little bit closer to having full knowledge really to know each other at all.
否则，这只不过是共同理解的极端错觉罢了。
Otherwise, it's just this extreme illusion of shared understanding.
是啊。
Yeah.
让我们来点实际的。
Let's get a little bit practical here.
我们该如何提出好问题？
How do we ask good questions?
首先，我们已经在这方面做了大量实验。
The first thing is we've so we've done a lot of experiments with this.
我们如何让人们提出更多问题？
How do we get people to ask more questions?
真正带着这种心态告诉自己'多提问'，确实会引导人们提出更多问题。
And truly going in with a mindset of just telling yourself, ask more questions does lead people to ask more questions.
这是我们提供的众多干预措施或建议之一，表面上看非常简单。
It's one of these many of the interventions or sort of advice that we give in conversation on its surface seems very simple.
因为实时对话的认知负荷已经很重，试图给出非常复杂微妙的建议会让你在对话的混乱中难以应对。
Because the cognitive load of having live conversation is already very heavy, trying to give very complicated nuanced advice is too much to handle while you're also in the chaos of conversation.
所以实际上，你首先应该尝试的就是：好吧，我要在生活中试着多提问。
So really, the first thing you should try is just, okay, I'm gonna try and ask more questions in my life.
就这样。
That's it.
比如，我至少要问一个，至少两个问题。
Like, I just I gotta ask at least one, at least two.
不要一个问题都不问。
Like, don't leave asking zero.
这就是最重要的建议。
So that's the top line advice.
不过更具体地说，当你磨练提问技巧时，会出现一些超级问题类型。
To get more tactical, though, as you're honing your question asking skills, there are some superhero question types that emerge.
第一种就是追问式问题。
The first of which is follow-up questions.
追问式问题可以针对对方说过的任何内容进行跟进，无论是对话中的前一轮、更早的对话阶段，还是你们关系发展中的早期阶段。
Follow-up questions can follow-up on anything that your partner has said, either in the previous turn of the conversation or earlier in the conversation or earlier in your relationship.
追问式问题之所以神奇，是因为它们能快速获取更多信息。
Follow-up questions are so amazing because they get more information quickly.
对吧？
Right?
它们能帮助澄清你可能误解的内容。
They help clarify if you misunderstood something.
对方可能和你分享了一些事，但你可以问：哦，但你为什么会有那种感觉呢？
They might share something with you and you but you could say, oh, but why did you feel that way?
比如：再多说点。
Like, tell me more.
听起来你小时候确实很焦虑。
It sounds like you were really anxious as a kid.
最让你害怕的是什么？
What scared you the most?
如果不问这个追问问题，我只知道你感到焦虑，但不知道原因、时间、对象或具体情境。
Without asking that follow-up question, I knew that you felt anxious, but I don't know why or when or with whom or in what community.
所以追问式问题能帮助我们深入挖掘某人生活经历中的那些具体细节。
So follow-up questions help us get digged down into that sort of detailed nitty gritty of what someone's lived experience.
所以后续问题是超级英雄般的存在。
So follow-up questions are superhero.
它们还能向对方表明你一直在倾听他们。
They also show your partner that you were listening to them.
没错。
Right.
我之所以能跟进那个焦虑孩子的故事，是因为我一开始就认真听了，并且关心这件事。
I can only follow-up on those that anxious kid story because I actually heard it in the first place, and I care about it.
而且在过去的十分钟里，我一直在思考这件事。
And I was thinking about it for the last ten minutes in the intervening time.
所有这些特质都是我们钦佩他人的品质。
And all of those things are are attributes that we admire about people.
就像是说，哦，你居然在听我说话？
It's like, oh, you listen to me?
你在乎我？
You care about me?
你竟然能记住这些内容并在之后重新提起？
You're smart enough to hold that in your head and then bring it up later?
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
所以说后续问题就像超级英雄。
So follow-up questions are superheroes.
我们有一组精彩的速配约会者数据。
We have an amazing dataset of speed daters.
大约是900次快速约会。
It's about 900 speed dates.
平均而言，提问更多的人会获得更多第二次约会的机会。
And people who ask more questions get more second dates on average.
多到让你想象一下参加了20次约会。
So much so that, like, imagine you went on 20 dates.
如果你在这20次约会中每次只多问一个问题，就能将其中一次约会转化为第二次约会。
If you ask just one more question on each of those 20 dates, you'll convert another of the dates into a second date.
每次对话只需多问一个问题。
Just one question per conversation.
想象一下如果你问了五个、十个问题会怎样。
Imagine if you asked, you know, five questions, 10 questions.
这个效果非常显著。
It's very strong effect.
这种效果几乎完全是由后续问题驱动的。
That effect is almost entirely driven by follow-up questions.
如果你带着多提问的目标进入对话，我们往往会自然而然地提出更多后续问题。
If you go into a conversation with the goal to ask more, we tend to naturally ask more follow-up questions.
你会有种'哦，对'的感觉。
You're sort of like, oh, yeah.
他们刚和我分享了某件事，而因为我要尝试多提问，我就能对他们刚分享的内容进行更深入的探讨。
They just shared a thing with me, and now I know because I'm gonna try and ask more questions that I could dig deeper on the thing they just shared with me.
这是个很好的本能反应。
And that's a good that's a good instinct.
所以后续问题非常棒。
So follow-up questions are great.
我们一直在研究的另一种类型是开放式问题与封闭式问题。
The other type that we've been studying are open ended questions versus closed questions.
我们都知道这两者之间的区别。
We all know the difference between those.
开放式问题类似于：你童年最喜欢什么？而封闭式问题则是：你喜欢你成长的地方吗？
Open ended would be like, what did you like about your childhood versus did you like where you grew up?
对吧？
Right?
是或不是。
Yes or no.
开放式问题确实都有在对话中重要的用途。
Open ended questions are really they both have, important purposes in conversation.
开放式问题有助于将话题切换到新内容上。
Open ended questions are helpful for switching topics to something new.
对吧？
Right?
就像它开启了一个我们可以探索的新空间。
Like, it opens this new space where we can now explore.
我真的很想听听你成长的地方，而不是简单的'是'或'不是'，然后我们可能会想，接下来该聊什么？
I would really love to hear about where you grew up rather than yes or no, and then we kinda, oh, where do go from there?
当你构思一个开放式问题时（平均而言，这类问题能让对方说的话是封闭式问题的两倍，所以非常有意义），我们发现提问的方式也很重要。
And when you're formulating an open ended question, which on average elicits, like, twice the word count as a closed ended question from your partner, so it's very meaningful, what we find is the way you phrase the question can matter as well.
那么有什么问题呢，比如你早餐吃了什么？
So what questions, like what did you have for breakfast?
你喜欢松饼的哪些方面？
What do you love about muffins?
你吃牛油果吐司的时候会想些什么？
What do you think about when you're eating avocado on toast?
这会让你联想到什么？
What does it make you think of?
这类问题往往能在社交效果上达到最佳平衡点，比如提升好感度和促进信息交流。
These tend to hit the sweet spot in terms of social outcomes like likability and information exchange.
相比之下，以'为什么'开头的问题，比如'你为什么喜欢牛油果吐司？'
Compared to questions, for example, that start with the word why, like, why do you like avocado toast?
你为什么不吃鸡蛋？
Why don't you eat eggs?
你为什么不吃早餐？
Why don't you eat breakfast?
'为什么'类问题可能会让人感觉带有指责意味。
Why questions can feel accusatory.
没错。
Right.
就像在评判别人。
Like judgy.
爱评判的。
Judgey.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且他们立刻就变得很爱评判。
And they're like immediately judgy.
那些'如何'的问题，比如'你怎么做牛油果吐司？'
How questions, like how do you make avocado toast?
你喜欢怎么做的鸡蛋？
How do you like your eggs?
这些问题可能还行，但有点过于技术性了。
They can be okay, but they get a little bit too, like, technical.
所以这些问题也有点太...提问者把你往一个非常特定的方向推，而'什么'类问题会给回答者留出更多空间，让他们往自己真正感兴趣的方向发挥。
So they're also a little bit too, the person asking the question is pushing you in a very specific direction, whereas what questions leave a lot of space to the person who's answering to take it in a direction they're actually excited about.
比如'你怎么做牛油果吐司？'
Like, how do you make avocado toast?
对方就不得不回答：'好吧，我把面包放进烤面包机，然后涂黄油，再把牛油果捣碎抹上去'
Now they're required to say, well, I put bread in a toaster, and then I I do put butter on it, and then I smash the avocado.
但如果我问'你最喜欢的早餐是什么？'
Whereas if I said, what's your favorite breakfast food?
对方就能往更有创意、可能也更有趣的方向发挥。
They can take that in so many more creative and possibly interesting directions.
所以跟进问题、以'什么'开头的开放式问题才是我们的制胜法宝。
So follow-up questions, open ended questions that start with what are our winners.
喜欢这些策略。
Love those strategies.
我也很喜欢你提到的这一点，在对话中之所以如此吸引人，部分原因在于它表明你正在专注倾听。
And I also love how you describe that there's part of the reason that this is really compelling in a conversation is that it shows that you're paying attention.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
这表明你在倾听，你在真正接收和理解对方所表达的内容。
And that you're listening, that you're seeing and hearing what somebody is offering up.
这在当今社会实在太罕见了。
And that's so rare these days.
你知道，我们都习惯了生活在一个充满干扰的世界里。
You know, we're so used to living in a world of distraction I know.
所以当有人能给予你哪怕只是部分关注时，你就会觉得：等等——
That when somebody actually gives you any form of, like, even partially divided attention, you're just like, wait.
还要更多。
More.
想要更多这样的关注。
More of that.
就像在说：谢谢你。
Like, thank you.
非常感谢你这样做。
Thank you for that.
这实在太难能可贵了。
It's so appreciable.
感觉就像黄金一样珍贵。
It feels like a gold.
就像是，天啊，你是真实的吗？你是在和我说话吗？
It's like, oh my are you real are you talking to me?
你有在听吗？你听到我说的话了吗？
Are you list did you listen to what I said?
这是最珍贵的礼物。
It's the ultimate gift.
我一直认为这是份很棒的礼物，但在我们注意力如此分散的当下，它显得更加珍贵和有价值。
I think it's always been a great gift, but it just feels even more precious and valuable now that our attention is so fragmented.
我让学生们做一个对话审计练习，让他们记录二十分钟内通过所有通讯方式（短信、邮件、电话、Zoom、面对面、Snapchat、私信等）收发的一切信息。
I have my students do an exercise that's a sort of conversation audit where I have them record all of the incoming and outgoing messages that they send and receive on every across all modes of communication, text, email, phone, Zoom, face to face, Snapchat, whatever, DMs, whatever, for, like, twenty minutes of their life.
任何人都可以做这个练习。
And anyone can do that exercise.
它以不可否认且生动的方式真实展现了我们的注意力如今有多么分散和碎片化。
What it really shows you in a very undeniable and vivid way is how very distracted and fragmented our attention is now.
而且，你知道，这让我们能同时联系到比人类历史上任何时候都多的人。
And, you know, it it allows us to be in touch with more people at once than ever before in human history.
这有其积极面。
And that has upsides.
这带来了很多机会。
That has lots of opportunities.
我们可以与更多人保持联系。
We can be more connected to more people.
但我的学生们回顾他们的审计时，常常会说，其实只有面对面的交谈才感觉真实。
But when they look back on their audit, my students often say, well, really only the face to face conversations felt real.
而我真正记得的，是那些面对面交流中的神奇时刻——当有人也全神贯注于我时，那些充满意义、扎根现实、让我们真正连接的瞬间。
And I'm really only remembering those sort of magical moments from those face to face connections where someone was also paying attention to me that felt meaningful and felt grounded in reality and, like, we were really connected.
而其他几乎所有互动都显得如此事务性，虽然这也有其好处。
And almost everything else feels so transactional, which has its own benefits.
但这还揭示了一点：当你同时面对混乱的邮件、短信、群聊、来电和Zoom会议时，我们其实在不断选择优先处理谁和哪些话题。
But the other thing that it shows is, like, as you're looking at a mess an email, a text, a group text thread, a phone call is coming in, you're on Zoom all at once, we're making lots of choices about who to prioritize and which topics to prioritize.
这就像在判断什么最值得我关注。
It's sort of like which deserves my attention most.
因此当你把注意力给予某个人或某个话题时，这强烈表明你确实在乎他们。
And so when you do give that attention to someone and to a certain topic, it says a lot about that you actually do care about them.
他们对你很重要，那一刻那个话题对你也很重要。
They mean a lot to you, and that topic in that moment means a lot to you.
是啊。
Yeah.
这话听起来太真实了。
I mean, that lands as being so true.
赞助商信息后我们马上回来。
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
我很好奇，顺着这个话题延伸——
I'm curious also, like, building on that.
很多人应该都接触过亚瑟·艾伦的研究，大约十年前《现代爱情》专栏刊登的'36个让你爱上任何人的问题'就源自他的实验室工作——让两个陌生人用45分钟互相提问，问题设计得逐步深入且更具脆弱性。
I think a lot of people were exposed to the work of Arthur Irons, back when you know, I think it was a decade ago when the modern love column came out, like, 36 questions to make anyone fall in love with you, which took his his work in a lab designing, you know, like taking two strangers, putting them together for forty five minutes, and having them each ask each other a series of questions that took them slowly deeper and deeper and were more vulnerable.
其中一部分是这样的，记得多年前我读到那项研究时，他们试图找出究竟是什么让人在与陌生人相处45分钟或1小时后，感觉比认识多年的人更亲近。
And part of that, you know, when I read that research years ago, and they're trying to figure out what literally made people feel like they were closer to these strangers after forty five minutes or an hour than they were to people they'd known for years.
而且你可能比我更了解这项研究的最新进展。
And you you're probably more up to date on the research than I am here.
就像，我记得读到过关键在于相互性，是一种渐进式的相互脆弱性。
Like, you know, but I remember reading that it it was the mutuality, and it was like mutual progressive vulnerability.
所以我在想，在当前情境下，当你坐在这里说'好的'时。
So I'm wondering in in this context, when you're sitting here and saying, okay.
我要开始提问并真正倾听、真正投入关注。
I'm gonna start asking questions and really listening and really paying attention.
如果这种互动得不到回应，如果缺乏相互性，对话是否仍会失败？
If that's not reciprocated, if there's no mutuality there, does the conversation still fall apart?
是的。
Yeah.
这是个非常重大且关键的问题。
It's such a big and important question.
我在哈佛的好友莱斯利·约翰——她也是位行为科学家，专门研究自我披露，尤其是相互披露。
My bestie at Harvard, Leslie John, who's also a behavioral scientist, studies disclosure and importantly, like mutual disclosure.
这会产生什么效果？
And what does that do?
有哪些利弊？
What are the pros and cons?
在她职业生涯早期，曾研究过隐私问题。
Early in her career, she studied privacy.
这简直让我难以置信，人们在网上彼此分享的信息量如此之大。
And so it was almost sort of like, I can't believe how much people share with each other online.
随着时间的推移，她逐渐接近亚瑟·阿伦的观点，正如你刚才精彩描述的那样——风险其实不在于分享过多信息（TMI），而在于彼此分享的信息过少（TLI），因为后者才是真正让人感到被了解、相互理解，并以现实方式建立深层连接的关键。
And over time, she got to this point that's much closer to Arthur Aaron and what you just described so beautifully of like, oh, the risk isn't really about TMI sharing too much information, but actually sharing too little information with each other, TLI, because that is the root of feeling known and knowing each other and feeling really connected in a realistic way to anyone.
而提问恰恰是实现这一目标的绝佳方式，事实上也是唯一途径。
And and question asking is such a fabulous way really the only way to do that.
但随之而来的问题是：如果我不断提问且对此有意识，也从对方那里获得很多信息，但他们却从不反问，该怎么办？
But then this question comes up of like, well, what if I'm asking lots and lots of questions and I'm aware of it and I'm getting lots from them, but they're not asking anything back?
我的学生们在完成大量提问练习后，总会提出这个问题。
And my students ask this all the time after we've gone through so many exercises to practice question asking.
我的回答通常是这样的——虽然不确定是否特别鼓舞人心——但对话是共同构建的。
And my answer is usually this, and I don't know if it's particularly uplifting, but conversation is co constructed.
你只能控制自己的思想和行为。
You only have control over your own thoughts and behaviors.
你只能控制提问的决定、转换话题的决定、开玩笑或最终离开的决定。
You only have control over the decision to ask a question, the decision to switch topics, make a joke, ultimately leave.
你无法控制他人说什么或做什么。
You don't have control over what people other people say and do.
如果你发现自己在和一个不提问的人交谈，可以尝试一些方法，比如主动透露些事情，看看能否引起对方的兴趣。
And if you find yourself talking to somebody who's not asking you anything, you can try some approaches like, oh, well, I'm just gonna disclose things and see if that piques your interest.
对吧？
Right?
开始讲故事，主动分享一些事情。
Start telling stories, start sharing things unsolicited.
这是触发相互敞开心扉的一种方式。
That's one way that you might trigger mutual disclosure.
或者如果这个人长期不提问确实让你困扰，你可以直接给出反馈。
Or if over time it really is bothering you that this person isn't asking questions, you could deliver that as direct feedback.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果你和这个人很熟，你可以直接说，不。
If so if you're if you know this person well, you could say, no.
比如，我或者递给他们一本我的书说，看。
Like, I or, you know, hand them a copy of my book and say, look.
你必须多提问。
You have to ask lots of questions.
你觉得我们俩相处得怎么样？
How do you think we're both doing?
但归根结底，我们在对话生活中能控制的就是选择交谈对象和自身行为。
But ultimately, what we have control over in our conversational lives is who we talk to and what we choose to do.
所以如果有人持续不向你提问且这确实困扰你，我认为这完全有理由降低他们在你生活或社交圈中的优先级。
So if someone persistently is asking you nothing and it really bothers you, I think that is a legitimate reason to sort of deprioritize them in your life or in your social portfolio.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且也许他们并非心怀恶意，可能只是他们不是你的同类人，这也没关系。
And and maybe it's not that they're ill intended or, you know, like, what it's just it's maybe they're just not your people, and that's okay.
确实如此。
Exactly.
你知道吗？
You know?
或者说，也许就像那些正在被探讨的话题，或者正在发生的能量，或者就是没发生什么，这都没关系。
Or maybe it's like the whatever the topics that are being explored or the energy that's happening or it's just not happening, and that's okay.
你知道，说'还有其他人'是可以的。
You know, it's okay to say, like, there are other people.
对话是为了满足彼此的需求。
Conversation is about fulfilling each other's needs.
如果长期反复地有人无法满足你的需求，那也没关系。
And if your needs are not being fulfilled by someone repeatedly over long periods of time, that's okay.
那可能就不是对的人。
Then it might not be your person.
是啊。
Yeah.
让我们进入你框架中的'l'，轻松感。
Let's drop into the l in your framework here, levity.
再次强调，这就是当你尝试把幽默或趣味带入对话时，可能会取得惊人效果的那个要素。
And, again, this is the one where when you try and bring humor or playfulness into a conversation, it can go phenomenally well.
或者不会。
Or not.
也可能像你知道的，比如你会想'哦，我有这个挖苦的想法，这个特别搞笑的台词或这个笑话或这个有趣的故事'，然后讲出来却换来一片死寂。
It can also like you know, like you're like, oh, I have this snarky thought, this really funny line or this like joke or this funny story, and I tell it and it's complete silence.
鸦雀无声。
It's cricket.
你会觉得，呃，这对谈话毫无帮助。
You're like, oh, that was not helpful in this conversation.
带我了解下我们如何看待对话中的轻松氛围。
Take me into how we think about levity in conversations.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
你的描述方式非常准确。
The way you describe it is so is exactly right.
尤其是对于幽默而言。
The there especially for humor.
对吧？
Right?
尝试幽默需要极大的勇气，就像这些微小的冒险时刻。
Humor attempts take tremendous courage, and it is like these little tiny moments of risk.
比如，我现在要冒这个险吗？
Like, am I gonna take this risk right now?
而且它可能以多种方式失败。
And and it could fail in many different ways.
人们没有笑。
People don't laugh.
人们不觉得好笑。
People don't think it's funny.
他们不认为这合适与否。
They don't think it's appropriate or not.
我要把它藏在心里吗？
Am I gonna keep it to myself?
我想很多人会对我职业生涯中，尤其是早期阶段的那种感受产生共鸣——我感觉自己像是被困在一个牢笼里，不得不长期在所有人面前隐藏自己的傻气，因为你总是在判断什么是得体的，人们会如何看待这些尝试。
I think a lot of people would commiserate with the feeling that I experienced in so much of my career, especially early on is like, I felt like in this prison of having to, like, hide my silly from people, from everyone for so long because you're constantly making these judgments about what's appropriate and how people are gonna view these attempts.
但让我退一步说。
But let me back.
我先宏观地讲一下。
I'll zoom out for a second.
谈话中的轻松氛围。
Levity in general in conversation.
这很有趣。
It's so funny.
我认为我们自然会把幽默和温暖视为对话中额外的奖励性要素，是叠加在真正工作内容——生产力、学习、实质内容之上的重要部分。
I think we naturally think of humor and warmth as these sort of, like, extra bonuses important parts that are on top of the real work of conversation, the productivity, the learning, the content.
偶尔有人说了句俏皮话，你就会想：哦，真有意思。
And some every once in a while, someone said something funny, and you're like, oh, that's so fun.
好耶。
Yay.
然后继续工作。
And then back to work.
你懂吧？
You know?
就是，回到正事上来。
Like, back to the real stuff.
当我们研究对话中的轻松氛围时，很快就能清楚地发现：它并非重要交流之上的额外赠品，而是相互关注的核心决定因素。
When we study levity in conversation, it becomes quite clear quite quickly that it's not actually this extra bonus that lies on top of the important work, but, actually, it is a core determinant of mutual attention.
因为对话需要所有参与者持续投入，优质对话的沉默杀手往往是无聊与冷漠。
Because conversation requires sustained engagement from both people, from everybody involved, the quiet killer of good conversation is often boredom and disinterest.
我们在谈论一个我根本不想聊的话题。
We're talking about a topic that I don't wanna talk about.
我的思绪会比平时更加游离。
My mind's gonna start to wander even more than it already does.
我会开始对你失去兴趣。
I'm gonna start to lose interest in you.
我会开始对这个话题失去兴趣。
I'm gonna start to lose interest in this.
我会想要转身离开。
I'm gonna wanna walk away.
这种情况经常发生。
And that happens a lot.
我认为当想到糟糕的对话时，人们容易联想到争吵、对抗和敌意——这些都是喧嚣的杀手，像持刀威胁般扼杀对话。
I think when we think of bad conversations, it's easy to think of arguing, fighting, hostility, which are very loud killers, kinda kill conversation at knife point.
但无聊和冷漠才是更常见、更悄无声息的对话杀手。
But boredom and disinterest are quiet, much more common killers of conversation.
就像用安眠药让对话在沉睡中死去。
Sort of kills it with this sleeping silent sleeping pill.
而轻松氛围就是解药。
And levity is the antidote.
轻松的时刻能将我们的注意力重新拉回彼此身上。
Levity moments of levity pull our attention back into each other.
无论是通过幽默，那些转瞬即逝的笑声、欢乐和愉悦，还是单纯的温暖。
And whether it's through humor, that's these fleeting moments of laughter and joy and mirth or just warmth.
比如表达感激、给予赞美、切换新话题、关注对方而非自己。
So things like expressing gratitude, giving compliments, switching to a fresh topic, focusing on the other person rather than yourself.
有太多轻松的技巧可以帮助重新吸引人们的参与度。
There are so many levity moves that can help pull people's engagement back in.
而轻松带来的效果其实相当重要。
And that effect of levity is quite serious.
对吧？
Right?
就像，你需要这种双向互动来实现对话中的所有目标，而不仅仅是为了单纯的娱乐。
Like, you need that mutual engagement to achieve any of the goals that you wanna achieve in a conversation, not just to have fun on its own.
是啊。
Yeah.
我非常欣赏你刚才对'轻松不等于幽默'的明确区分。
I so appreciate how you made the distinction there also that levity is not always humor.
没错。
Yeah.
其实还有很多其他因素能为对话注入一种——该怎么说呢——轻盈感。
There's a whole bunch of other things that can go into this that just create a certain I mean, a lightness to the conversation.
我有时会想，那些让对话陷入僵局的原因，是不是也包括对话变得过于沉重。
I wonder sometimes if some of the like, of the conversation killers also is just conversations start to get really heavy.
好沉重啊。
So heavy.
你可以用多种不同方式围绕大脑打转。
You start circling the you can circle the brain in so many different ways.
如果你在一个话题上停留太久，如果话题太严肃，如果意见不合，如果感到无聊，就会开始觉得非常沉重，这时需要些活力来提振，这就是轻松感。
If the if you stuck on a topic for too long, if the topic's too serious, if you're disagreeing, if you're bored, and it just starts to feel really heavy and it needs that fizz to bring you back up, and that's that's levity.
是啊。
Yeah.
我很喜欢这点。
I love that.
这就引出了我们谈话框架中的最后一个K——善意（kindness）。
And and that brings us to k in the final in the in the talk framework here, kindness.
你把善意列为关键因素我觉得很有意思，因为我想应该有很多人经历过感觉不到善意和慷慨、但却非常精彩的对话。
I thought it was it was really interesting that you were licking this as as a really critical factor because I would imagine there are probably a lot of people who have conversation where they feel like there was no sense of kindness, of generosity in this conversation, but it was a phenomenal conversation.
请再详细说说善意在优质对话中的作用。
So talk to me more about the role of kindness in good conversation.
我对善意的定义很简单：关心对方并在对话中表现出来。
So the way that I define kindness is just caring about another person and showing it during the conversation.
有时这种关怀对话伙伴是看不见的。
Sometimes that care is invisible to our conversation partners.
所以你可能会觉得，哇。
And so you might just feel like, wow.
刚才的互动真的很有趣。
That was really fun engaging.
我学到了很多。
I learned so much.
我们真的感到彼此相连。
We really felt connected.
但如果你回顾那些精彩的对话，他们可能做了很多并非只为自己利益考虑的事。
But if you look back on those great conversations, they were probably making lots of moves that didn't just serve their own interests.
比如，如果你只考虑自己想谈论什么、用什么方式谈论来帮助自己，那这场对话成功的几率会非常非常低，因为对话是深度共创的，每个人都有各自的需求和愿望。
Like, if you're only thinking about what you wanna talk about in the way you wanna talk about it to help you in some way, the chances are that that conversation goes well at very, very low because it's just so profoundly co created and each person has their own set of needs and desires.
如果一个人完全只顾自己的利益，通常结果不会好。
And if one person's completely acting in their self interest, often, it's just not gonna work out.
善良很有趣。
Kindness is funny.
这是我们从小就被教导的一种美德。
It's this thing that we learn about as children as a virtue.
而我花了人生大部分时间思考：这究竟意味着什么？
And I spent, like, most of my life really thinking about, like, what does that actually look like?
那些真正善良的人，他们都在想些什么？
Like, people who are really kind, what are they thinking about?
他们是如何时刻关注他人、真正关心他人、满足他人需求的？
What are they doing from one moment to the next to truly, like, pay attention to other people, actually care about them, serve other people's needs.
在对话中，这常常意味着有时要把对方的偏好置于自己之前。
And often in conversation, that means sometimes prioritizing the other person's preferences before your own.
比如我们必须聊你喜欢的话题，而我乐意这么做是因为我在乎你，希望你觉得这次交流很有收获。
Like, we have to talk about something that you love, and I'm excited to do that because I care about you, and I want you to find this interaction rewarding.
这真是太循环了。
And it's so circular.
对吧？
Right?
如果你觉得这种互动有回报，那对我而言也是一种回报。
If you find the reaction rewarding, that's going to be rewarding to me.
所以这是一种相互的推拉关系。
And so it's this sort of reciprocal push and pull.
通常这种互动会通过全神贯注地倾听对方来体现。
And often the way that plays out is through really engaged and attentive listening to the other person.
我喜欢这个观点。
I love that.
它衔接得很巧妙。
It tethers nicely.
我经常思考对话的意义，以及我称之为慷慨或善意的意图所扮演的角色——我觉得这和我们现在讨论的内容本质相同。
I mean, I've often thought about conversations and the role of what I would call generous or benevolent intent, which I think is kind of the same thing we're talking about here.
确实如此。
Definitely.
是啊。
Yeah.
你懂我意思吧？
You know?
就像，我参与这场对话时，我在你身上看到了这种特质。
It's like, I'm coming to this conversation, and I see in you.
如果你在对话中表达某些内容，而这些内容可能有多种解读方式时，我会倾向于以善意的初衷来理解——怀着慷慨、友善的意图，而非预设破坏性的动机。我会保持一种包容的态度，表达‘我理解你’的立场。
If you say something, if you offer something into the conversation and it can be interpreted in different ways, I'm gonna step into like, my assumption is going to be benevolent intent or benevolent intent, know, generous intent, kind intent, rather than assuming something destructive and just trying to hold a container that says, you know, like, I see you.
我尊重你。
I respect you.
我把你视为有尊严的个体。
Like, I hold you in in dignity.
那么，是的。
And and let's yeah.
让我们在那个层面上展开对话。
And let's have that that conversation at that level.
你觉得这种情况罕见吗？
Do you find that that's rare?
是的。
Yes.
这很罕见，因为这需要努力，而且不幸的是，这违背了人类的天性。
It's rare because it's effortful, and it goes against human nature, unfortunately.
我们的大脑天生就是以自我为中心的。
Our brains were designed to be egocentric.
我们拥有完整的自我认知，天生就为生存而设计——保护自己、延续生命和繁衍后代。
We have perfect full self knowledge, and we were designed for survival to protect ourselves and to survive and procreate.
我们无法完全了解他人的视角。
We don't have complete knowledge about other people's perspectives.
从本质上说，我们就是自我中心的生物。
Just by nature, we're egocentric beings.
我们思考自己视角的频率远高于他人。
We think about our own perspective much more often than others.
这样做更容易。
It's easier to do that.
因此我们必须与这些自我中心的直觉作斗争，真正不懈地推动自己保持这种慷慨的意图，尽可能多地了解他人，真正迫使自己不对他们做出负面评判、不感到受威胁或不草率下结论。
And so we kind of have to battle against those egocentric instincts and really relentlessly push yourself to have this generous intent, to learn as much as you can about the other person, to really push yourself not to judge them negatively or feel threatened by them or jump to conclusions.
带着这种善意行走于世，人们很容易认为这样会让你成为一个好人。
That walking through the world with this benevolence, I think it's easy to think that's like, oh, that's makes you a good person.
不。
No.
这更可能让你成为一个勤奋的人。
It makes you it's probably makes you a hard worker.
你在不懈地努力优先考虑他人、关心他人、不对他们做出负面评判、不总是本能地关注自己。
You're working really hard relentlessly at trying to prioritize other people, care for other people, not judge them negatively, not instinctively focus on yourself all the time.
我认为书中关于善良的部分，重点不是说你要永远优先考虑他人，或者你应该讨好别人，或者某种利他主义。
I think in the kindness part of the book, the point is not to say that you're always going to prioritize other people or that you should be a people pleaser or that some sort of like altruism.
而是说，要想以慷慨的意图行走于世并真正善待他人，唯一的机会就是你必须不断与自我中心的直觉作斗争。
It's saying the only chance you have of ever being able to walk through the world with generous intent and and really be kind to other people means that you're gonna have to fight against your egocentric instincts constantly.
你不可能总是做对，也不必总是优先考虑他人，但你必须保持这种对他人不懈的关注，才有机会成为一个仁慈的人。
You're not always gonna, like, get it right, and you don't always have to prioritize other people, but you do have to kind of have this relentless focus on on other people to have a fighting chance of being able to be benevolent.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这很有道理。
I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense.
我也很好奇，你在探讨对话中的情感话题时，会稍微提及这一点。
I'm curious also, and you speak to this a bit and when you you sort of, like, you explore the topic of emotions in conversation.
如果我们更广泛地讨论对话中除语言之外的所有组成部分。
If we go even broader and we talk about the part of the conversation that is everything but the words that are being spoken.
有些研究经常被人错误引用，比如声称85%或90%的交流都是非语言的。
Certain studies that people just like perpetually misquote about, you know, like 85 or 90% of all communication is nonverbal.
但当你真正查看研究数据时，会发现这种说法完全错误。
And then when you actually look at the research, you're like, it's completely wrong.
那么，在实际使用的语言之外，其他因素在共同创造神奇体验中究竟扮演什么角色？
What's the reality here about the role of everything outside of the actual language that's being used in co creating something magical?
所以关键结论是这样的。
So here's the bottom line.
问'哪个更重要'本身就是个错误的问题。
It's the wrong question to say which matters more.
我们是同时运用所有这些因素的。
We do all of them.
正确的问题应该是：它们之间如何相互作用？
So the right question is, how are they interacting with each other?
我喜欢把它们分成三类。
I like to think of three buckets.
第一类是我们对彼此说的话，即语言内容，也就是词语的含义。
The first is the words that we say to each other, verbal content, so the meaning of our words.
第二类是非语言交流，包括所有通过视觉接收的信息。
The second bucket is nonverbal, and that's everything that comes in through your eyes.
这是他们的肢体语言。
It's their body language.
这是他们穿的衣服。
It's the clothes they're wearing.
这是他们的面部表情、手势动作和鞋子。
It's their facial expressions, their hand gesticulation, their shoes.
还包括他们周围环境中的一切。
It's everything in their environment that's around them too.
对吧？
Right?
所有这些视觉信息。
So all of that visual information.
第三个维度是听觉信息。
And the third bucket is acoustic.
这是通过耳朵接收到的所有非语言内容。
It's everything that comes in through your ears that is not the words.
包括他们的声音、语速、音调、声带摩擦音等等。
The sound of their voice, the how fast they're speaking, their tonality, their vocal fry, all of it.
对吧？
Right?
这三个维度都至关重要。
So those three buckets all matter profoundly.
而我们科学家才刚刚开始大规模研究语言维度——真实对话的文字记录。
And we've only as scientists started to study the words bucket, the transcripts from real conversations at large scale.
我们真正开始研究这个领域，大概也就是最近十年左右的事。
We've only started studying in the last, like, ten years.
所以争论哪个因素更重要其实有点荒谬。
And so to make arguments about which one matters more is a little bit crazy.
我认为对话科学的未来方向，实际上是要尝试解析那些声音线索。
I think where the future of conversation science is headed is actually towards trying to parse out those acoustic cues.
比如我们的声音特质、说话方式、口音、表达节奏、停顿时机，所有这些韵律线索，还有那些我们发出'哦'、'嗯'之类的反馈信号——这些元素到底在起什么作用？
Like, what is it about our voices and the way we speak to each other about accents, about delivery and timing and pauses and all those prosodic cues, all those back channel feedback things where we go, oh, yeah.
这些因素究竟在发挥什么功能？
Like, what are those things doing?
它们何时才真正重要？
When do they matter?
我们如何能更好地运用这些技巧？
How can we do them better?
并观察这三个维度如何相互作用。
And seeing how all three of those buckets interact.
还有关键一点：由于我们在不同沟通模式（面对面、电话、短信、邮件、视频等）间切换，除面对面外，所有沟通方式都在某种程度上限制了这些线索的传递。
There's also an important point that because of how we toggle across different modes of communication, face to face, on the phone, texting, emailing, calling, every mode of communication except face to face limits those cues in some way.
因此，只有面对面的互动才能完整呈现语言、非语言和声音信息的全部丰富性。
So, like, only face to face in person interaction has the full richness of verbal, nonverbal, and acoustic information.
这正是为什么面对面交流感觉最真实。
And that's why it feels the most real.
我们当面交谈时发笑的概率要高出30倍。
We are 30 times more likely to laugh in person.
我们面对面交流时的说服力是其他方式的34倍，因为我们在现场能获取的信息量远超其他任何渠道。
We are 34 times more persuasive in person because we're getting so much more information there than anywhere else.
我觉得我们凭直觉知道这点，但某种程度上低估了其影响程度。
And I think we we know that intuitively, but we kind of underestimate the scale of it.
我们知道这是最好的方式，但也会觉得，视频通话确实也很方便。
We know that it's the best, but it's like, oh, you know, Zoom calls are really convenient too.
但问题是，视频通话的便利性真有面对面交流的30倍吗？
But you're like, is it are they 30 times more convenient?
当你在生活中设计和他人对话时，需要时刻牢记这些不同类型的信息是如何以不同方式受到限制的。
And it's just something to sort of keep in mind as you go through the world and design your conversational life is thinking about how these different types of information are limited or constrained in different ways.
确实。
Yeah.
最后这点也让人不禁思考，随着越来越多互动转移到虚拟领域、数字领域，我们究竟失去了什么。
And that last point also really makes you wonder what we're losing as so much of our interaction moves into the virtual domain, into the digital domain.
由于疫情等特殊环境，我们转向虚拟互动的速度远超所有人预期，后来这竟成了默认模式。
Like, we all went there far faster than anyone ever imagined we would because of circumstances or the pandemic, and then it became the default.
你明白吗？
You know?
我们不再质疑这种模式，现在看到人们在工作场所应对复工令时的挣扎很有趣，大家都在试图找到平衡。
We just stopped questioning that, and it's interesting to see now people grappling with, you know, like, in the workplace, you know, like, return to work orders and, like, how people are trying to figure out.
但即使在个人层面，正如你描述的，如果我们的某种能力在面对面时是其他方式的34倍，那么友谊呢？
But even on a personal level, you were describing, if we're 30 times more this or 34 time more times this, like, what about when we talk about just friendship?
当我们谈论爱情感受时又会怎样呢？
What about when we talk about just, like, loving feelings?
你知道，我们是什么，那些就像是生命精髓的东西？
What are we you know, like, all these things that are kinda like the marrow of life, you know?
是的。
Yes.
所有那些东西会变成怎样？
What happens to all of that?
对啊。
Yeah.
当我们觉得通过虚拟对话或技术支持的对话就能获得所需时，就会默认将其作为主要对话模式。
When we feel like we're getting what we need through virtual conversations or through technologically enabled conversations, and we default to that as the primary mode of conversation.
我们实际上在失去什么？
Like, what are we actually losing?
我想我们短期内不会知道答案，但当我们知道时，我敢打赌那会非常发人深省且令人担忧。
I imagine we're not gonna know the answer to that for a while, but when we do, I would bet it's gonna be pretty eye opening and concerning.
我认为科学家通常会把这类损失归入无形或主观结果的类别。
I think scientists often will use bucket those losses into a category that that they may call, like, intangibles or, like, subjective outcomes.
是的。
Yeah.
有时我会突然恐慌：难道生活中98%重要的事不正是这些无形或主观衡量的东西吗？
And I sometimes I have this little panic where I'm like, but isn't 98% of what matters actually the intangibles or, like, the subjectively measured things about life?
比如，你如何量化被爱的感受与电子邮件传递的信息之间的重要性差异？
Like, is how could you ever, like, measure the magnitude of importance of feeling loved compared to, I don't know, any sort of information exchanged through email.
这是让我深感忧虑的事，尤其作为一个母亲。
It's a profound thing that that I worry about, especially as a mom.
我在想我们的孩子长大后，这个世界会变成什么样子？
I thinking of our kids as they grow up, like, what's the world gonna look like?
什么才是真正重要的？
What's gonna matter?
在这个日益分散注意力、数字化和人工化的世界里，我们还能保持真实的爱与连接的感觉吗？
Can we preserve the feeling of real love and connection as the world becomes increasingly attention fragmented, digitized, and artificial.
在一个大部分都是人造的世界里，什么是真实的？
What's real in a world that's so largely artificial?
是啊。
Yeah.
尤其是当AI已经开始接管我们周围发生的很多事情时。
Especially when AI is gonna start to take in so much of what happens around us already is.
我们已经讨论了很多，有太多丰富的想法和值得思考的东西，策略和技巧。
We've talked about so much, and there's so many rich ideas and things to think about, strategies, tips.
我相信每个听众都在点头，想着：我也希望能经常在世界上自如地展开精彩对话。
I'm sure everyone listening along is sort of sitting here nodding and say, like, I would love to be able to move through the world and just have great conversations on a regular basis.
我也能想象，肯定有些听众会暗自思忖：这感觉要求好多啊。
And I also would imagine that some folks certainly joining us are thinking to themselves, this feels like a lot.
有没有可能让那些没有专门研究这个的普通人，也能在相当规律的基础上达到这种状态，让你觉得这并不沉重？
Is is there a world where the just the average typical human being who's not devoting themselves to this can kind of like on a fairly regular basis get to a point where you're like, it's not heavy.
这并不技术化。
It's not technical.
这种流畅感让人感到舒适自在。
There's a fluency that feels like this I feel comfortable.
我感觉不错。
I feel good.
某种程度上，我相当有信心能经常性地创造出还算不错的对话。
Sort of like being, like, and confident that I can kind of fairly regularly create like a half decent conversation.
是啊。
Yeah.
有一种观点认为，精彩的对话是生活中最美好的事情。
There's one school of thought that's like great conversations are the best thing about life.
我确实认为这是真的，但这种情况并不常见。
And I do think that is true, but it doesn't happen very often.
我希望人们从我和我的课程、我的书中获得的是：我感到自信。
What I hope people take from me and my course and my book is more like I feel confident.
我明白这里发生了什么。
I understand what's going on here.
我知道这很混乱、很困难，而且很少会变得精彩。
I understand that it's messy and hard and very seldomly going to be amazing.
但我感到自信、有力量且舒适，了解其中的运作机制让我觉得自己能更专注当下，更能倾听他人，并让我有机会在运气来临时，邂逅那些真正神奇的瞬间或对话。
But I feel confident and empowered and comfortable and knowing how the sort of mechanics of it work make me feel like I can be more present, that I can listen more to other people, and puts me in a position to maybe when I get lucky to have those moments that are really magical or those conversations that are really magical.
但大多数时候，生活就是这样，知道不会事事完美。
But most of the time, just go through life knowing that not everything's gonna be perfect.
它会很混乱，有时我们会在伟大面前跌跌撞撞。
It's gonna be messy, and sometimes we're gonna stumble on on greatness.
这几乎像是：降低你的期望，但实际上提高你对一个低期望对话能带给你的收获的预期。
It's almost like part of that is lower your expectations, but actually increase your expectations about what a lower expectation conversation would actually give you.
是的。
Yes.
降低期望，但或许可以提升对可能之事的抱负或希望。
Lower your expectations, but maybe raise your aspirations or hopes for what's for what's possible.
喜欢这个说法。
Love that.
感觉这也是我们圆满收官的好时机。
Feels a good place for us to come full circle as well.
那么在这个'美好生活项目'的框架下，如果我提出'过好生活'这个短语，你会想到什么？
So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
接纳。
Acceptance.
接纳自己，接纳他人，并接纳当你与其他人的思想互动时，不可能做到完美。
Acceptance of yourself, acceptance of other people, and acceptance that when you interact with other human minds, it's not going to be perfect.
但偶尔，这种互动会非常美妙。
But every once in a while, it'll be pretty great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
非常感谢你，乔纳森。
Thank you so much, Jonathan.
这次对话非常愉快。
This was totally delightful.
嘿。
Hey.
如果你喜欢这期节目，那你很可能也会喜欢我们与普里亚·帕克关于如何让不可能对话成为可能的对谈。
If you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Priya Parker about making impossible conversations possible.
你可以在节目备注中找到那期节目的链接。
You can find a link to that episode in the show notes.
本期《美好生活计划》由执行制片人林赛·福克斯和我——乔纳森·菲尔兹共同制作。
This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
剪辑协助来自亚历杭德罗·拉米雷斯和特洛伊·杨，主题音乐由克里斯托弗·卡特创作。
Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.
当然，如果你还没关注，请务必在常用的收听应用或YouTube上关注《美好生活计划》。
And, of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
如果你觉得这次对话有趣、有价值或鼓舞人心——你还在听就说明确实如此。
If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here.
请帮我个私人小忙，只需七秒钟：把它分享给一个人就好。
Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person.
如果你想分享给更多人那更棒，但哪怕只分享给一个人也行。
And if you wanna share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even.
然后邀请对方与你探讨你们的新发现，重新连接并探索真正重要的想法——因为这就是我们共同觉醒的方式。
Then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together.
下次见，我是乔纳森·菲尔兹，代表《美好生活计划》与你暂别。
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
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