皮特·多赫蒂：“我被看作一个烂醉的人！”新闻标题背后的真相

这在过去。

This in the past.

我感兴趣。

I'm interested.

我对所有这些都感兴趣。

I'm interested in all of it.

我觉得这是一种非常了不起的状态。

I think that's a really brilliant place to be.

我觉得这是因为别人一直告诉我我是成瘾者，你知道，在这些不同的治疗中心里，你一遍又一遍地被告诉你有一种状况，一种叫做成瘾的疾病，最终你无法再只是娱乐性地使用，你不能偶尔用一用。

I think because I've been told that I'm an addict, you know, you get told time and time again in these different treatment centres that you've got a condition, you've got an illness called addiction where you can't, in the end, you can't just do it recreationally, you can't, you know, do it once in a while.

所以接受这一点对我来说是个不小的冲击，这花了我很长一段时间，真的。

So coming to terms of that was a bit of a shock to the system, and that's taken me a while, really.

那么，你现在觉得这个标签适合你吗？

And do you feel like that label is appropriate to you now then?

因为我觉得，如果你当时并不觉得如此，这个标签可能曾经让你感到不匹配。

Cos I'm sure it felt maybe misaligned before if you weren't

陷入其中，就是如此。

going into it's it or on.

我不知道，我不是医生，但如果成瘾是一种精神疾病，可能吧，你知道，五十年后人们才会这样看待它。

I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but if addiction is a mental disease, which probably, you know, probably in fifty years, that's when it will be seen at.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，他们不会再把人关进监狱了。

You know, they won't be locking people up.

对。

No.

你知道，如果我吸食快克可卡因，他们会怎样，我不知道。

You know, if I smoke crack, they'll be I don't know.

这是一个相当复杂的话题，不是吗？

It's quite a complicated subject, isn't it?

但我认为这是一种疾病，明知道会给自己带来毁灭，却依然为此牺牲一切。

But but I think it's an illness, the need to do that to yourself, knowing the destruction you're causing and still sacrifice everything for it.

所以，既然你已经做出了这个决定，我相信我以前听过你说，你妻子在促使你做出这些决定、获得清晰认知方面起到了关键作用，给了你某种程度的最后通牒。

So so since you've made that decision that and I'm sure I think I've heard you say before your wife was pretty instrumental in giving you somewhat of an ultimatum to make these decisions and to get clarity with that.

那感觉怎么样？

What has that been like?

因为即使那不是全部，它显然与你的艺术、你的身份、你向公众展现的个性紧密相连。

Because if it was even if it wasn't the be all and end all, it was obviously hugely wrapped up in your art, who you were, your personality that you were, you know, expressing to the public eye.

失去生活中这部分、你日常的仪式和习惯，感觉如何？

What's that been like losing that part of your lifestyle and your, the rituals in your day and your life?

是的，我和卡蒂亚的关系是随着时间慢慢演变的，我们越亲近，相处时间越多，我就越不需要那样做了。

Yeah, this is my, with me and Katya, it's just evolved over time, our relationship, and the closer we've got and the more time we spend together, the less I've needed to do.

我想，当我一个人的时候，比如我们刚做朋友，或者还没一起住的时候，我可以见到她，然后去忙自己的事。

I think when I was on my own more, you know, like when we were just friends or before we were living together, I could see her and then go off and do my thing for a bit.

我觉得我们在一起的时间越多，而她又不使用，你明白我的意思吗？

I think the more we were together and she didn't use, you know what I mean?

所以我渐渐学会了没有它的生活，虽然很长一段时间都很不情愿，你知道的？

So I just sort of somehow learnt to live without it, like reluctantly for a long time, you know?

而且，是的，她只是到了一个阶段，我们彼此相爱，我爱着她，而她发现她更喜欢我不吸毒的样子。

And just, yeah, well, she just, I think she just got to the point where we were in love and I'm in love with her and she turned out she preferred me not on the drugs.

而我也更喜欢她喜欢的我，你知道吗？

And I preferred it when she liked me, you know I mean?

我们当时正试图一起建立生活，你知道的？

And we were trying to build a life together, you know?

有没有过一些时刻——当然，这在我们每个人身上都会以不同方式出现，总会有一些触发因素。

Were there moments of and this is, you know, obviously prevalent for all of us in different ways and we'll have things that will trigger it.

这些年来，无论你是否在吸毒，有没有出现过自我厌恶的时刻？这种感觉是因吸毒而引发的，还是源于对过去的回顾，或者说是遗憾？

What have there been moments over the years whether you were drug taking or not of self loathing creeping into play where it was either that was, you know, brought on because of the drug taking or looking back at the past or, I don't know, regrets?

是的。

Yeah.

自我厌恶是一种很沉重的感觉。

Self loathing is quite a heavy one.

我不确定是不是自我厌恶，但有时候会感到尴尬和恐惧。

I don't know about that, but but but embarrassment sometimes and fear.

我不认为自我厌恶一定与事件直接相关，因为我曾经为一些毫无意义的事情自我厌恶，就像别人会说：‘你干嘛为这个烦恼？’

I don't self I don't think self loathing is necessarily I don't think it directly correlates to the event because I've self loathed over fuck all, like things that people would go, why you worrying about that?

我确实曾直接陷入自我厌恶。

And I have literally just dived into self loathing.

我觉得这并不相关，更多是关于你自己以及你如何看待自己，这其实是你的自我价值，对吧？

I don't think it correlates I think it's more about it is more about you and how you perceive well, it's your self worth, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

我想，这源于什么。

And what that derives from, I guess.

对。

Yeah.

我可能会对这个问题想得太多，而持谨慎态度。

I'd probably be quite tentative about, think about it too much.

我可能真的自我价值很低，常常反思自己对自己做过的事。

Probably I had to probably I've got very little self worth, really, and I think about what I've done to myself.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我还没准备好去想这个问题。

I wasn't ready to think about that.

也许我会听你的，去见个心理治疗师，是的。

Maybe I'll get you said you see a therapist, like Yeah.

我只是不想再重演了。

Just don't think I'm reliving

去面对它。

to it.

它改变了我的整个人生。

It's changed my whole life.

真的吗？

Really?

我断断续续地做了好多年，但去年我遇到了一个特别合得来的人。

I I've mean, done it on off for years and years and years, but I found someone that I just really have clicked with in the last year.

而且是的，我认为尤其是在看待自我价值时——我当然远未做到完美，我觉得也没几个人能做到——这对我审视自我价值、弄清楚自己在想展现给别人的那一面之外究竟是谁、并接纳那个真实的自己至关重要，这真的非常好，非常好。

And yeah, I think especially when looking at self worth, which I've by no means nailed, I don't think many people have, it's been completely vital in looking at that and working out who the hell I am outside of the bit that I wanna show people and liking that bit of myself and it's been really good, really good.

你有没有做过？

Have you ever done it?

没有，还没有在那种一对一、定期见面或定期交谈的层面上做过。

No, not on that like one to one level with someone who you see regularly or talk to regularly.

我想过去我在治疗中心的时候——通常都是被迫去的——我确实和某些人产生了共鸣，但我其实不太深入。很容易轻描淡写地谈论过去，或者讲些轶事，但真正去分析自己、深入谈论内心，我做不到。

I think in the past when I've been in treatment centres, normally against my will, I've clicked with certain people, but I don't really get too much into it's easy to sort of breezily talk about the past or, you know, anecdotes and but we're actually getting into analyzing myself and talking about someone.

我觉得我做不到。

I don't think I'm capable of it.

我觉得我太……太脆弱了，根本承受不了。

I think I'm too, I'm actually too fragile to do that.

我觉得我一旦开始，就会彻底崩溃，可能得花一个小时才能停止哭泣，你懂我的意思吗？

I think it would take me like, I think I'd just break down and it'd take me an hour to stop crying, you know what mean?

然后，我可能需要好几年才能把自己重新拼凑起来。

And then it'd be years to put myself back together from that.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

不过这是可以做到的。

It's doable, though.

我做过。

I've done that.

我曾经哭了好几个小时。

I've had good old cry for hours and hours.

这可能很好。

Could be good.

是的

Yeah.

我也有这种感觉，只是我现在太忙了。

I got this too I'm too busy at the moment.

要做的事情太多了。

There's too many things to do.

我有这个，你知道的，我得照顾孩子，也许等她十六七岁的时候，我才会关注一下自己。

I've got this, like, you know, I've got the baby to look after, and maybe when she's 16 or 17, I'll have a look at myself.

电视上也有很多好东西。

And there's loads of good stuff on the telly as well.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

就像一遍又一遍地重看《辛普森一家》，而不是像

Just like rewatch The Simpsons again and again rather than like

我的意思是，这本身就是一种疗愈。

I mean, that's therapy in itself.

我觉得如果你在笑某件事，那就是一种治疗。

I think if you're laughing at something, that's therapeutic.

你会说，不必深入探讨这个，因为你刚刚已经说了，这确实是个大事。

Would you say, mean, don't have to dive too deeply into this because you've just said that's, you know, it's a big deal.

但今天，你能说你喜欢自己吗？

But today, could you say you like yourself?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我发现自己很难用第三人称来谈论自己。

Don't I can't I find it difficult to talk about myself in the third person like that.

喜欢或不喜欢自己，我不知道该怎么去这样思考。

To like or not like myself, I don't know how would go about thinking like that.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得很好奇，因为我认为每当有人的作品公之于众时，你可能会开始探究：这其中有多少是纯粹的自我表达——我必须创造、必须制作一些东西，又有多少是出于对他人认可的需求？

Guess I'm intrigued because I think whenever anyone's had their work put out publicly, you know, I think you can start to dig around in how much of that is pure expression I have to create, I have to make something, And how much of that is I need validation from other people?

你有没有想过，这些年来在你的作品中，这两者的比例大概是多少？

Do you know that in terms of, like, the ratio in your own work over the years?

你有多需要别人说你

How much have you needed other people to say you're

他妈的棒极了？

fucking great?

这是一些你不会太在意的事情。

As starts something that you don't think about too much.

就像是一种写作或作曲的爆发，那种东西很纯粹，你没有过多地思考或分析它。

So it's like a burst of writing or songwriting where something's pure and you haven't thought about it, analysed it too much.

但当你开始进入录音室、合作或发布作品时，你就开始更在意别人会怎么想。但在最纯粹的形式下，比如，我做过一个小刊物。

And then when you start moving into the studio and collaborating or putting things out, then you start worrying more about what other people are going to think and But in its purest form, like, I've so I've done a little fanzine.

我不知道你管这种小刊物叫什么。

I don't know you call a fanzine.

写一本关于自己的小刊物真是够烂的。

It's a crap to do a fanzine about yourself.

但去年在自由人乐队巡演时，我让一位泰国作家上了巡演巴士，我只是把它留在那儿，让卡尔和其他人写点东西。

But I put I put a Thai writer on the tour bus last year for the Libertines tour and I just left it there and got Carl and whoever to write stuff.

里面有些内容出来时，你会想：这是什么？

Some of the things in there come over, like, what's this?

哦，你醒啦，格拉迪斯。

Oh, you've woken up, Gladys.

嗨，宝贝。

Hello, babes.

当我沉思时，我的思绪转向了更阴暗的轮盘。

When I wonder, my mind turns its darker wheeled.

我为灵魂设置了导航，目的地是你唯一称之为‘我’的地方——那个无法被绅士化的角落，那里租金不会上涨，因为你无法转租自己的心灵。

I set the sat nav controls of the soul for the only place you ever called I am, the place they couldn't gentrify, where the rents don't climb because you can't sublet the mind.

它无法将我驱逐出自己的记忆。

It can't evict me from my own memory.

在无限的领域里，旋律不是重罪。

A melody is not a felony in the realms of infinity.

崭新而从容的进步模式，将欢愉注入你曾经沉重的心。

New and unrushed patterns of progress, carrying jubilation in your once heavy heart.

接纳成瘾是一种医学状况、一种病痛，而非道德抉择，应给予深思的同情，而非审判。

Welcoming the recognition of addiction as a medical condition, an affliction, not a moral decision, to be given considered compassion, not facing conviction.

焦虑像社会地下奔涌的河流，我们正被淹没，它正如海啸般袭来。

Anxiety runs like an underground river of society, and we're flooding, and it's coming, like a tsunami.

如今的年轻人无法在数字荒原中找到自己的方向。

Young minds today can't find their way through the digital wasteland.

社交媒体加剧了你的狂躁，变得越来越诡异， Artificially deeper。

Social media feeding your frenzy, getting creepier, artificially deeper.

算法断言你会入狱，遭遇速成课式的碰撞，那些经过精心演练的定罪行为，把一个早已身处地狱的病人关进牢房，你却以为他能康复。

The algorithm says you'll go to prison, suffer from the crash course collision, the conviction acts of well practiced precision, lock a sick man already in hell in a cell, and you think he's going to get well.

你不需要同行评审的研究来告诉我们，这个系统本可以是一双治愈之手，却偏偏像一记重拳。

You don't need peer reviewed research to teach us that the system acts like a fist when it could be a healing hand.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

这真不错。

This is nice.

我不知道是谁写的。

I don't know who wrote it.

我不确定这是否是卡尔写的。

I don't know if this was Carl.

你

Did you

写了最后一个吗？

write that last one?

最后一个是我写的，是的。

That last one I did, yeah.

我非常喜欢这个。

I love that.

我听了这段，为了感受一个在众多表演者中涂着特定妆容的小丑，他们迎合模棱两可的赞美，偏爱一块破碎的砖头而非坚守阵地的砖头，打碎鸟食器、腐烂的木板和其他各种垃圾，盯着后退的发际线，却忍不住垂涎发亮的黄牙和泥泞的裤子，把他拉到桌子左下方一点，厌恶地盯着太阳为何如此温暖，竭尽全力奉承你水泥墙里的蟑螂，搭配你最得体的西装、最愚蠢的鞋子和最差的衬衫，却怎么也掩盖不了你长不出胡子的事实。

I listened to this, to feel a clown in a field of entertainers who paint their face a certain way, to cheers ambiguities and favor a brick that's broken over one that holds the fort, breaking bird feed, rotten planks and other various items of crap, to look at receding hairlines with impulse to slobber over gleaming yellow teeth and muddy trousers, embracing him there down a bit to the left of the table, looking disgusted at the sun for being so warm, attempting all you can at flattery to win over the cockroaches in your mortar, aligning your best suit, stupidest shoes, and worst shirt in harmony, not being able to quite reach the bit needed to disguise the fact you can't grow a beard.

喷够须后水，你已经痒了。

Splash aftershave enough, you're already itchy.

一张等待回收的灯芯绒沙发。

A corduroy sofa left for collection.

那在彻底煮沸之后可能就没问题了。

That might be okay after a thorough boil.

Facebook自动更正把‘fat bastard’当成亲昵用语了。

FB autocorrected to fat bastard as a term of endearment.

这他妈太棒了。

That's fucking great.

我超爱这个。

I love that.

我它。

I it.

这太黑暗了，老兄。

That's darkness, man.

关于胡子的事，那就像。

About the beard as well, that was like.

我爱这个，因为我的意思是，再说一遍，我相信写作是一种某种形式的心理疗愈，是我们每个人都能做的。

I I love this because it's I mean, again, I believe writing is a therapy of sorts and something that we can all do.

我们都可以醒来，把脑子里正在发生的事情写下来，无论是诗歌，还是只是盘旋在脑海中的思绪。

We can all wake up, and we can just write down what's going on in our heads, whether it's poetry or just something that is spinning around our minds.

这真的很有疗愈作用。

It's really therapeutic

我真的很喜欢读诗，我喜欢阅读。

to I do love reading poetry, I love reading.

所以这里有一个地址。

So I've got an address here.

这是埃切韦拉的雷昂维尔特酒店，如果有任何人有诗歌、短篇小说、歌词或其他任何作品，都可以寄到那里，这是给你们 Strap 粉丝们的主意。

It's the Rayon Vert hotel in Echeverta and anyone got any poetry, short stories, lyrics or anything, they can send it to That's you on Strap fans the idea.

嗯，这正是我想表达的。

Well, that's what I'm trying to

我非常喜欢这个。

I love that.

而且这是复古的风格。

And it's old school.

我们在用邮寄的方式。

We're using post.

我们来这么做吧。

Let's do this.

我们去弄个邮票吧。

Let's get a stamp out.

我总是丢手机，所以现在没手机了。

Well, I keep losing my phone, so I don't have a phone anymore.

就从那里发吧。

Just do it from there.

这真是太美了。

It is is so beautiful.

因为我想聊聊这个话题

And because I wanna talk to about this

因为今年

because the year

和年。

and year.

天哪。

Oh my god.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我爱这个。

I love that.

太酷了。

That's so cool.

我会发一首诗给你。

I'll send you a poet.

我会是是的？

I'll be yeah?

我爱写诗。

I love writing poetry.

我会让你兑现的

I'll hold you to

那。

that.

我经常写诗。

I write poetry all the time.

我这么说吧，写诗就像绘画一样。

I it is, again, like writing poetry, painting.

我非常热爱艺术。

I'm big into art.

我画肖像。

I paint portraits.

回顾你这些年来的作品，以及你如此高产的创作，无论是作词还是

Looking at your work over the years and how prolific you've been, whether it is songwriting

我能听一首你的诗吗？

Can I hear one of your poems?

我现在身上没带，也绝对记不起来，但我一定会发一首给你。

I haven't got one on me now and I definitely can't remember them, but I'm I'm gonna post you one.

好的。

Alright.

我会做的。

I'm gonna do it.

我用手机给你看看我的画作。

I'll show you my paintings on my phone.

好的。

Alright.

我超爱绘画。

I love painting.

我觉得，从外部来看——这么说可能听起来有点做作，但艺术对你而言，是一种生存必需。

And I think it feels to for me looking from the outside, art without this sounding completely wanky, but art feels like for you, it's a matter of survival.

你必须去创作。

Like, you've got to create.

你必须去做，无论是写歌、写诗，还是绘画、素描。

You've got to do this, whether it's song or poetry or drawing, sketching.

你会这么说吗？

Would you say that?

我们不得不，对吧？

We have to, don't we?

确实如此。

We do.

人类必须如此。

Mankind has to.

人类，全人类。

Mankind, humankind

但我想，我们已经集体遗忘了这一点。

But we've forgotten that collectively, I think.

但我们确实会偶尔重新记起，你知道的？

But we have bursts of remembrance, you know?

就像当你看到那个‘我爱这个想法’的时候，苏格拉底或柏拉图是谁，但洞穴背面的影子这个概念。

It's like when you see the I love that idea then who is Socrates or Plato, but the idea of the shadows at the back of the cave.

我一直对这个图像着迷，你知道吗？

I've always been hypnotised about the image, you know?

你会看到这些旧石器时代或新石器时代的洞穴壁画，有人用动物的血，在洞穴里——你知道，猎人们回来后，把肉放在火上，部落的人都在，突然有个人第一次把图像泼洒在墙上，画着公牛或者带箭的人，你可以想象那些孩子，就像在语言出现之前一样，抬头看着这些画面，而今天也是如此。

You get these paleolithic or neolithic cave paintings, you know, where someone's got the blood of an animal and just in this cave where, you know, the hunters have come back equipped and putting the meat on the fire and the tribe's there and someone's splashing, I don't know, for the first time, someone's splashing images up on the wall of an ox or a man with an arrow and you can imagine those children, know, just like played before language, looking up, seeing that and it's the same today.

对今天的孩子来说也是一样的。

It's the same for children today.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

孩子的想象力，你知道，它依然存在于我们所有人身上，我们都是这样

The the child's imagination, you know, it's still there in all of us, you know, we're all like

你的这种能力得到了充分施展，因为正是它推动你去创作专辑、巡演、持续创作并制作你的音乐。

I mean, you get to flex that muscle a lot because that's that's driving you to then write albums, to tour, to keep creating, and keep making your music.

你觉得今天是什么在驱动着这一切？

What would you say is driving it today?

这和写第一张自由人乐队专辑时有什么不同吗？

Does it differ from writing that first Libertines album?

是什么驱动了这些歌词？

What's driving those lyrics?

是什么在激励你，让你感到兴奋并想要创作？

What what's inspiring you and getting you feel buzzed up to write stuff?

是它让我感到兴奋并想要创作。

It's getting me buzzed up to write stuff.

或者，比如你正在做的这张专辑——

Or even, like, with the album that you're

真的别去想它。

Just don't even think about, really.

有些东西必须被表达出来，是的。

It's just something needs to be Yeah.

有些东西需要被说出来或唱出来，你知道的，感觉对了，你也不介意再唱一遍。

Something needs to be said or sung, you know, and it feels right, and you don't mind singing it again.

我也喜欢听别人唱歌。

I like to hear people sing as well.

我喜欢那种集体合唱的感觉。

I love, you know, communal singing.

就是这样。

That's what it is.

集体合唱，集体跳舞，真的。

Communal singing, communal dancing, really.

就是那种律动，还有那些不断变化的身体，不断变化。

Just that movement and, you know, all that morphing bodies, morphing.

哦，对，人们坐着听歌，轻轻打拍子。

Oh, yeah, just people sat down listening, tapping their foot.

那也很棒。

That was cool too.

是啊，人们聚在一起，无论是什么场合，足球赛场、音乐现场、市场。

Yeah, people coming together, anything, football crowds, music crowds, markets.

我想他们可以

I guess they could

当我告诉我爸爸我在采访你时，他说：‘你一定要告诉他我是QPR的球迷。’

When I told my dad that I was interviewing you, he was like, oh, you must tell him that I'm a QPR fan.

我当时说：‘我会的。’

I was like, I will.

我爸爸出生在那个地区，所以他家 literally 就在QPR旁边。

My dad well, he's born in that area, so he was, like, literally next door to QPR.

所以，是的，我哥哥他们都是QPR的球迷。

So, yeah, my brother, all they're all QPR fans.

西伦敦人？

West London boy?

我当时说：‘别担心。’

I was like, don't worry.

我会跟他说，爸爸。

I'll tell him dad.

好吧。

Alright.

所以在你刚刚读的那段小文字里，写得非常美，你提到了焦虑，显然你从一种集体的角度谈到，我们所有人都处于一种潜在的焦虑之中，而这种焦虑每天都被我们所接触的新闻、社交媒体等不断加剧。

So in that little piece you wrote that you just read out, which is so beautiful, you you touch on anxiety and obviously that was referenced in a sort of collective sense that we're all sort of there's this undercurrent of anxiety and it's ramped up daily by everything that we're imbibing, news, social media, etcetera.

你现在焦虑在哪里？

What where's your anxiety at?

这是

This is

奇怪的地方。

the weird thing.

奇怪的是，我之前回避了你关于什么让我兴奋的问题，因为这正是我现在的困境——我其实并不想诚实地回答，但我有个坏习惯，就是总是说实话。

This is the weird thing that I I sort of evaded your question before about what gets me buzzed up because and this is the dilemma I'm in, which I didn't really want to answer honestly, but I have this habit, really bad habit of telling the truth.

那就是，当我吸毒的时候，尤其是在那种亢奋的状态下，独自一人抱着吉他，常常会引发极度的焦虑感。

And that is that when I was taking drugs and I was in those moments, especially alone with the guitar in that fevered state, often it would lead to extreme, you know, surges of anxiety.

这些感觉不会持续太久，但正是在这些时刻，我总会想：天啊，这就是了。

They wouldn't necessarily last, but and they were the moments that always created this, like, so that fuck, this is it.

我要走了。

I'm going.

我现在得写一首杰出的歌。

I've got to write a brilliant song right now.

你说的走，是意思我要死了吗？

I'm going as in I'm going to die?

是的，就是现在了。

Yeah, this is it.

现在我已经无法再走这条钢丝了。

There's no way forward now that I can't walk this tightrope anymore.

然后我就得做点什么。

And then I'd have to do something.

我得写一些极其美丽而完美的东西，只是为了我自己。

I'd have to write something so beautiful and perfect that just for myself.

然后我就能抵达另一端了。

And then I'd make it through to the other side.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

心脏会慢下来， blah, blah，药物已经没了。

The heart would slow down and blah, blah, the drugs are gone.

我有了这首歌，你知道的，这种事情经常发生。

And I've got this song and, you know, that would happen a lot.

然后你最终会围绕这些——你知道的，两三个强烈而奇特的时刻——构建整张专辑，这些时刻可以成为你继续创作的基石，或激发别人写出一段旋律或不同的歌词。

And then you end up building whole albums around those, you know, two or three weird intense moments that then you can build on or inspire someone else to write a riff or different lyrics.

如果没有这些，我可能根本不会去想写歌这回事。

Without that, I might have asked really about writing a song.

我的意思是，我热爱音乐，也一直喜欢演奏音乐，但那种想要创作和写作的冲动，某种程度上是由焦虑和黑暗驱动的。

I mean, I love music and I've always loved playing music, but that need to write and create, it was sort of fueled by the anxiety and darkness.

但那并不总是药物造成的，你明白我的意思吗？

Now, it wasn't always the drugs that created that, you know what I mean?

年轻的时候，十几岁到二十几岁，我本来就挺忧郁的，而且在很多方面都很愤怒。

As a young man, sort of teens and twenties, I was pretty melancholy anyway and angry in a lot of ways.

但那些焦虑的亢奋状态，和迷幻的愉悦一样常见，你懂我的意思吧？

But those, you know, those fever states of anxiety were just as common as psychedelic bliss, you know what I mean?

而且当时我就在小威尼斯的运河边，拿着一把原声吉他，弹着一首旋律优美的民谣，所以那真是种奇怪的来回切换，你懂我的意思吧？

And being by, you know, the canal of Little Venice with an acoustic guitar right here, a melodic folk song, like So it was a real strange back and forth, you know what I mean?

所以其实我也不知道灵感会从哪儿来。

So I don't know where it's gonna come from, actually.

说不准，得亲眼看到才行。

Don't know, seeing it.

不如干脆试着写个广播剧什么的。

Might as well try and write a radio play or something.

我一直都想试试这个。

I've always wanted to do that.

去做吧！

Do it!

我超想看这个。

I'd love that.

那太棒了，就像新的拱门一样。

That'd be great, like the new arches.

但我试过在这里写一个，结果变得特别傻气又粗俗。

But they always, I tried writing one in here, but it's, it ended up really silly and vulgar.

那是一个我写过的短篇故事。

Like, it was a short story I wrote.

真的特别蠢。

It's really stupid.

但是

But

你已经让我感兴趣了。

You're selling it to me already.

这就是为什么我把它放在这里了

That's why that's why I've put

就放在这里，所以才

it in here that's why

我用这么小的字体写在这里，只是为了让你想象有人正在读这段文字。

I put it in here in such small type because it's just so you can imagine someone reading this.

首先，他们得能

First of they'd have to they'd have to

看得清这么小的字。

be able read tiny.

我看不清这个。

I can't read that.

保拉把拇指竖起来，毫无意义地比划着，麦纳马拉店里寥寥几位顾客立刻从她独特而决绝的说话方式和手势中，意识到这姑娘出事了。

Half a side of mister, Paula put her thumbs up meaninglessly, and immediately, the few customers in McNamara's knew from the decisively peculiar way she spoke and moved her hands that there was trouble with this lass.

起初，杯中剧烈沸腾，泡沫迅速喷涌，气泡翻腾。

There was at first tremendous excitement in the glass, a rapid explosion of froth and bubbly effervescence.

它似乎要溢出来，得赶紧擦干净。

It seemed to want to spill over and need some mopping up.

但突然间，随着气泡声调微微一变，苹果酒平静下来，泡沫在杯中坍塌了。

But all at once, with a slight change in the pitch of the fizz, the cider relented and the breaker collapsed inside the beaker.

保拉睁大眼睛盯着杯子，看着，坐着，再看着。

Paula's wide eyes looked at the glass and looked and sat and looked.

苹果酒冒了一会儿泡，保拉坐着，苹果酒继续冒泡，保拉继续坐着。

The cider bubbled a while, Paula sat, and the cider bubbled, and Paula sat.

三镑五十，亲爱的。

Three pounds fifty, my love.

酒保从下巴上拂去面包屑。

The barman brushed breadcrumbs from his chin.

保拉平视着杯沿，久久凝视。

Eye level, Paula looked long at the rim of the vessel.

她眯起眼睛，仿佛一艘微型模型船，漂浮在气泡中，而气泡则在逐渐平息的海面上飘荡。

In a squint, she was a tiny model boat adrift in a bubble, in a bubble in an increasingly flat sea.

我不是你的亲爱的。

I am not your love.

她发出有节奏的、闷闷不乐的喘息声。

She grunted in measured, sullen breaths.

沉闷而有节奏的呼吸。

Measured, sullen breaths.

那会更多。

That'd be more.

我不是你的爱人。

I am not your love.

她发出沉闷而有节奏的呼吸声。

She grunted in measured, sullen breaths.

那可不是你喘气时说的。

That's not what you grunt up.

所以我不是你的爱人，她沉闷而有节奏地喘着气。

So I am not your love, she grunted in measured sullen breaths.

那膏药抚平了最后一块干硬的面包屑，融入了他的回应，他毫无笑意地说着，嘴角却裂开一道宽宽的缝隙。

The balm afflict one last crusty loaf lingering and lent into his response, which he delivered humorlessly but with a broad gap to smile.

但还是三镑五十便士。

But it's still three fifty.

她带着不满和恶意放了个屁，一个头小个子高的男人从填字游戏中抬起头，试图憋住笑声。

She farted with petulance and malevolent intent, and a tall man with a small head looked up from his crossword and tried to subvert a giggle.

哦，天哪，麦卡。

Oh, Jesus, Macca.

你难道还不觉得够了吗？看在上帝的份上！

Won't you be having enough of that for fuck's sake?

他一口喝完最后一口黏糊糊的健力士啤酒，然后走进隔间，继续填他的字谜。

He swelled down the last swallow of sloppy Guinness, and he moved into the snug and resumed his crossword.

宝拉环顾四周，神情像一个刚意识到一件极其重要的事、急着要与人分享的人。

Paula looked around with an air of someone who has realized something of great importance she needed to share.

只要你能给我买苹果酒，我愿意为任何人口交，甚至咬下来。

I'll suck anyone's dick to bite it off if you can pay for me cider.

她大声狂笑，又放了个屁。

She cackled loudly, farting again.

一对沉迷于廉价葡萄酒的年轻情侣突然爆发出一种像病毒一样传染的笑声，宝拉很快也加入了进来。

A young couple heavily into a bottle of cheap wine burst into the kind of laughter that acts like a virus, and Paula soon joined in.

吧台服务员也是如此，尽管不太情愿。

So too for the barman, though reluctantly.

就在笑声达到顶峰并逐渐消散时，酒吧里的情况，是的，就这样持续了一阵子。

Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon anyway, yeah, it goes on like that a bit.

我爱保拉。

I love Paula.

我已经投入其中了

I'm already invested in

她接下来会怎么样？她自己都吓坏了。

what's She gonna happen to shits herself.

显然。

Oh, clearly.

然后那个做填字游戏的人说：啊，对了。

Then the guy doing the crossword went, ah, that's it.

他填完了填字游戏。

He filled in his crossword.

是的，就是这样。

It was yeah.

填字游戏的线索是腹泻。

The crossword clue is diarrhea.

对。

Yeah.

哦，天啊，糟了。

Oh, it's Oh, no.

等一下。

Hang on.

不。

No.

又进来一个男人。

There's another guy who comes in.

好吧。

Alright.

就在笑声达到顶峰并渐渐消散时，酒吧的门被推开，一个身材矮小、脑袋硕大的家伙穿着全套亮绿色阿迪达斯运动服，脚踩绿色阿迪达斯桑巴运动鞋走了进来。

Exactly as the laughter peaked and rolled away, the saloon doors opened and in stepped a small, large headed chap in a two piece lime green Adidas tracksuit green Adidas samba sport shoes on.

他背心上印着‘小猪’字样。

On the back of his bonds was purged small pork by hat.

酒保稳了稳神，点头打了个招呼。

The barman composed himself and nodded hello.

马可，你这个该死的混蛋。

Marco, you terrible asshole.

你们笑什么？

What's all the laughing for?

算了。

Never mind.

不过还是祝你好运。

Good luck to you anyway.

我笑了，今天所有人喝酒都算我的。

I'm smiling and it's drinks all around.

来吧，现在。

Come on now.

他挥舞着信用卡，朝酒架开玩笑。

He waved his credit card in the air and jested to the shelves of drinks.

不用了，谢谢，亲爱的，宝拉说。

Not for me, thanks sweetness, said Paula.

这饮料让你获得城市鱿鱼。

This gives you this this soda gives you the city squids.

酒保抗议道。

The barman protested.

他根本没碰过一滴酒。

He had not even touched the drop.

她一口那苹果酒都没碰过。

She never touched the drop of that cider.

这可不是苹果酒的问题。

It's not the cider.

嗯，看起来已经够糟了。

Well, it looks bad enough.

确实如此，贝拉，那个绿皮肤的家伙。

That's sure enough, Bella, the green chap.

宝拉往苹果酒罐里扔了四欧元硬币，微笑着。

Paula dropped €4 pieces in the pot of cider and smiled.

再见。

Cheerio.

她挥了挥手，走出酒吧，走路的样子就像屁股被马鞍磨得生疼，黄色的污物从她白色内裤里渗出来。

She waved and left the pub walking like she was saddle sore with yellow shit streaming down the inside of her white sides.

在她牛仔裙下，那个绿皮肤的男人没注意到那些偷偷渗出的污渍。

Beneath her denim skirt, the green man didn't see the shit stains trickily.

她离开时，他自个儿笑了，对所有人说：哇哦。

He smiled himself as she left and said to everyone, woah.

她身材真棒，对吧？

She's fit as fuck, no?

从休息室里，那个脑袋小小的男子喊道：就是它了。

From the snug, the small headed man exclaimed, that's it.

D I a r h e a。

D I a r h e a.

明白了。

Gotcha.

他带着满足的微笑填完了填字游戏的空格。

He filled in his crossword boxes with a contented smile.

我

I

我的意思是，我们为什么不把它改编成广播剧呢？这才是问题所在。

mean, who why are we not making that into a radio play is the question.

现在就有人去委托制作吧。

Someone commission it now.

我想知道保拉和她那破内裤接下来会发生什么。

I wanna hear what happens next to Paula and her shitty knickers.

我能想到保拉的，你知道的，那个凯瑟琳·塔特演的护士？

I can see Paula's, you know, the Catherine Tate nurse?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道那个护士吗？

You know that nurse?

凯瑟琳·塔特演这个角色简直太合适了。

Catherine Tate would nail that.

对。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个点子。

I like it.

她演护士时那个表情，简直就像‘他真是个该死的贱人’。

The face she does for the nurse is like He shits me a little bitch.

我

I

太喜欢了。

love it.

但我的意思是，我听过你说你想写一本小说。

But, I mean, I've heard you say you wanna write a novel.

你说过别人问你关于写作的事。

You've got you said you're asked about writing.

这显然是你必须去做的事。

This is clearly something you need to do.

这显然是你内心涌动着想要完成的事。

This is clearly something you it's it's pouring out of you.

不。

Nah.

现在因为有了孩子，我和我妻子分工平等，她上学的时候我们俩都在场。

It's just time at the moment with the baby because me and my missus are making, you know, everything's fiftyfifty and we're both there when she starts school at the time.

但目前呢，我的意思是？

But at the moment it's, you know I mean?

你看，有了这些屏幕，太简单了。

See, with the screens and that, it's so easy.

你只要放个动画片，她就安静了，但猫这儿不行。

You could just put cartoons on and she's gone, but cat here doesn't.

她觉得这会把宝宝的脑子搞坏。

She thinks that rots the baby's brain.

你知道我的意思吧？

You know I mean?

还有平衡。

And balance

我看得出屏幕太多不行。

in can see that one too many screens.

关键就是陪她玩。

It's all about basically just playing with her.

如果我能让她听我讲故事或者弹吉他，那就好了，但你知道我的意思吧？

And if I could get her into listening to me writing stories or play guitar, we'd be away, but, you know what I mean?

你会做到的。

You'll get there.

她只是

She's just

你会在这件事上做到的。

You'll get there with that.

目前，她就是那样，你知道的，她都20岁了，你知道的。

At the moment, she's just like, you know, she's 20, so, you know.

我记得那个年代。

I remember that era.

那真是全情投入。

It was full on.

你有孩子吗？

You got kids?

是的。

Yeah.

我有一个12岁的孩子和一个9岁的孩子。

I've got a 12 year old and a nine year old.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

我有一个。

I've got one.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我还记得那段有幼儿的时光，那时你什么都做不了。

But I remember that era of toddlers and you can't do anything.

做不了，等他们开始走路时，你就麻烦了，因为你得时刻盯着他们。

Can't and then when they start walking, then you're in deep trouble because you just have to keep an eye on them the whole time.

德鲁，我想再回去说一下。

Drew, I wanna go back on.

你提到在吸毒时会有那种极端焦虑的爆发，你的大脑可能在警告你：‘我要死了’，这背后有一种特别吸引人的地方。

There's something so interesting about you saying, you know, you have these or you would have had when on drugs, these bursts of extreme anxiety where you you your brain is maybe signaling, I'm going to die.

我必须立刻创造点什么，然后你就真的去做了。

I need to create something ASAP and you do it.

我一直很好奇，我之所以有强烈的绘画、写书和创作的驱动力，到底有多大的成分是源于此。

And I've always wondered that about how much I, you know, I have a real drive to paint and to write books and to make stuff.

如果我长时间没有创作，就会感觉平淡、情绪低落。

And I feel a bit flat and a bit blue if I constantly.

我必须不断有想法，并把它们写下来。

I have to have to have ideas, write them down.

即使只是采访，我也觉得，构思问题、写下来、用笔和纸记录下来，这个过程的最终产物对我而言至关重要。

Even if it's an interview, I feel like there's something tangible at the end of that process of thinking up the questions, writing it down, how it's and putting it in a notepad, pen, paper, really important to me.

我常常在想，任何热爱创作的人——我们每个人都有创造力，但那些痴迷于创作的人，他们的动力在多大程度上源于一种深藏于潜意识中的、对死亡的恐惧，以及想要留下些什么的渴望。

And I wonder constantly with anyone who is you know, we're all creative, but anyone that is obsessed with creativity, how much of that is driven by a very subterranean subconscious fear of dying and needing to leave something.

我们不想就此消失。

We we don't wanna not exist.

我们想留下一些东西。

We wanna leave something behind.

你觉得这在其中起作用吗？

Do you think that plays a part in any of it?

即使现在你戒了毒，不再吸毒。

Even now you're clean and you're not taking drugs.

你有多需要留下一些东西？

How much of you need to leave something?

我不太这么认为。

I don't really.

某种程度上，我是在为自己留下东西，但不是为了来世。

I'm leaving things for myself in a way, but not to do with the afterlife to do.

所以，一年半前，我经历了一次疯狂的创作爆发。

So I'd say nine, a year and a half ago, had a mad burst of creativity.

我写了很多歌，也就是我现在发布的这张个人专辑。

I wrote a load of songs, which is what is the album, the solo album I've done now.

同时我们还在制作The Libertines的专辑。

And we were doing The Libertines album at the same time as well.

所以这些歌都出来了。

So all these songs came out.

我只是在想，刚才的问题是什么来着？

Just trying to think what was the question again?

我是否想在死后留下些什么？

Am I leaving something for after I'm gone?

哦，只是你希望留下一部分自己，或者把它们释放出来。

Oh, it's just you want to leave a part of yourself or play it out.

你

You

想

want to

留下？

leave?

感觉像

Feel like

但我确实已经做过了。

I've done that though.

我觉得我做过一些让我非常自豪的事情，如果在我离开后，它们依然能触动他人，那就太棒了。

Feel like I've done things that I'm really proud of and that if they're still reaching people and touching people where I'm gone, then that's ace.

但要真正感受到自己所做事情的满足感和成就感，一直都很困难，你懂我的意思吗？

But it's always been tricky to just feel true satisfaction and accomplishment from something you've done, you know what I mean?

然后想，好吧，这就是全部了。

And think, right, you know, that's it.

永远不会有那么一个时刻，觉得事情还没做完。

There's never a point where it's an unfinished thing.

它永远不会真正结束，而这正是它如此神奇的一半原因，不是吗？

It doesn't it never finishes, which is really half the magic of it, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what mean?

你会说你在工作中是个完美主义者吗？

Would you say you're a perfectionist with your work?

比如这张专辑《Calvados》，你就是觉得，这正是我想制作的东西。

You know, with this album, with Calvados, you're like, that is exactly what I wanted to make.

我完成了。

I've done it.

有时候吧。

Sometimes.

最近我听了几次《Calvados》这首歌。

I've heard that Calvados song a few times recently.

一开始我不打算把它放进专辑里。

I didn't want it on the album at first.

它本来只是一首随手写出来的歌，但我现在挺喜欢的。

It was sort of a throwaway song that just came out, but I'm quite into it now.

然后我看了YouTube上关于这首歌的评论，有人留言说：‘呸，真正的皮特·多赫蒂早就消失了。’

And then I was looking at the comments on YouTube of it, and someone wrote, Pish, the real Pete Doherty is long gone.

这就像一个苍白、失败的模仿，真的深深刺痛了我，尽管还有很多善意的评论。

And this, like, pale, failed attempt to, and it was just, it really, like, really hit me hard, even though there was loads of nice comments as well.

总是那种糟糕的评论。

It's always the shit one.

是的，我的意思是，但某种程度上它也让我笑了，你懂我的意思吗？

Yeah, I mean, but it kind of made me smile in a way as well, you know what I mean?

因为过去我可能会找朋友去查出这个人住哪儿，你懂我的意思吗？

Because there probably would have been a time when I would have got, you know, a hack a mate to find out where this person lived, know what I mean?

然后烧了他和他全家的房子。

And burned him and all his family's houses down.

但现在它只是让我微笑，我想，这真是件美好的事，你知道吗？

But now it just sort of makes me smile and I think, what a lovely thing to do, you know,

能这样评论的人一定是个快乐的人。

They to go in must be a happy person.

但后来发现，其实现在根本没人看YouTube了，据说如此。

But then it turns out, right, people don't really watch YouTube now anyway, apparently.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do know what I mean?

现在全是Spotify和TikTok。

It's all Spotify TikTok.

还有别的东西。

And different things.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what mean?

是的。

Yeah.

那么你平时

So what do

你的画都怎么处理呢？

you do with your paintings then?

目前什么都没做。

Nothing at the moment.

我得想想该怎么处理它们。

I need to work out what to do with them.

我故意没把它们和工作联系起来，因为觉得它们太美好了，不想轻易展示出来。

I've sort of kept it away from work because it feels too lovely to then put out there.

所以我偶尔会发到Instagram上，但其实没怎么真正做过什么。

So I sometimes put them on Instagram but I haven't really done anything.

你有多少幅？

How many you

得了？

got?

我的意思是，年轻时我二十多岁经常画画，后来有了孩子，就整整十年没画了，现在又重新拾起来了。

I mean, the years, I sort of used to paint a lot when I was in my twenties and then had kids and then didn't paint for like a decade and I'm back into it.

所以我也没多少幅，大概三十来幅吧，但我希望能画更多，改天给你看看。

So I haven't got that many, maybe 30 something like that, but I'd like to do more, but I'll show you.

你觉得自己是在为别人留下些什么吗？

You feel like you're leaving something for people?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得这甚至不是一种有意识的、必须留下些什么的想法。

I don't think it's even a conscious thing of I need to leave it.

我认为，有一种内在的驱动力，让我觉得既然活着，就必须创造些什么。

I think there is something inherent about feeling like I've gotta make something whilst I'm here.

我甚至不知道该怎么表达，但当我画画或写作时，尤其是画画时，我会感到非常兴奋。

I don't even know how to articulate it, but I'm definitely I when I paint or write, especially painting though, I get really high.

就像我充满活力。

Like, I'm buzzing.

当我完成一幅画时，我会持续兴奋至少四十八小时。

And when I finish the painting, I am buzzing for at least forty eight hours.

简直睡不着觉。

Like I can barely sleep.

这种感觉如此令人振奋，其他任何事都无法带给我这种体验。

So electrifying and nothing else does that for me.

写作也有点像这样，但我觉得程度没那么强，因为写作更枯燥缓慢，而我认为绘画可以更自由、更混乱。

And it's a it's a bit like that with writing but I'd say less so because it's more plodding and slow and I think painting can be more free and chaotic.

如果你要采访自己，你会问自己什么问题？

If you were to interview yourself, what would you ask yourself?

我的意思是，我可能会问自己所有那些我们在这段对话中会深入探讨的问题，关于自我价值，因为我总是在反复思考：在这所有事情背后，我究竟是谁？我喜欢这个人吗？

I mean, I would probably ask myself all those questions that we would sort of dissect in the middle of this about self worth because I think I'm constantly going back to that and looking at it and looking at who the hell am I behind all of this stuff and do I like that person?

是的，但你有没有足够长的时间不去做这些事？

Yeah, but do you go long enough without all this stuff?

我的意思是，你有没有一段时间

I mean, do you have time

我现在有。

I do now.

你有没有连续几周或几个月不

Do you have, like, weeks or months where you're not

不是真的。

Not really.

比如，做公开的事情，还有

Like, doing public stuff and

这种变化让我在这个环境中更能做自己，而不是一味地迎合别人期望我做的事。

The change has been allowing myself to be more me in this setting rather than I better do what everyone wants me to do.

所以大家都喜欢我。

So everyone likes me.

什么是让人接受的？

What's palatable?

人们希望怎样听这个播客？

What how would people like to hear this podcast?

我该说什么？

And what should I say?

嘉宾会有什么感受？

And how will the guest feel?

嗯，不只是客人会不会感到舒适，因为那本来就是我想要的，但客人会喜欢我吗？

Well, not even how will the guest feel comfortable because that's a given, I want that, but will the guest like me?

你知道吗，我以前真的很渴望这个，就是客人离开后会不会觉得这次经历很愉快之类的，而我现在想做的，是把在家做自己的我，和这一切——有人收听、有人评论——融合在一起。

You know, I think I used to be desperate for that, you know, will the guest walk away and think that was enjoyable or whatever and I think what I'm trying to do is integrate the just me me at home with all of this craziness and people listening to it and people having opinions about it.

有

Have

你有不错的粉丝群体吗？

you got a good following?

你有不错的粉丝群体吗？

Have you got a good following?

比如

Like

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

在播客中，我们有很多可爱的听众，他们会非常喜欢这一切。

On the podcast, we have lots of lovely listeners who'll be loving all of this.

它的意义是什么。

What it's for.

当你和人们建立了这种关系时，你知道，他们就在那里。

You've got this when you've got this relationship with people, you know, they're out there.

也许有人会给你留一条小评论，但这其实并不重要。

Maybe someone leave you a little comment, but it doesn't really matter.

你知道你拥有，你知道，这种与

You know that you've got, you know, this relationship with

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，和我过去做的那些事情相比，比如我以前上《流行音乐排行榜》之类的，那时我只是在念台词。

I think, you know, the difference with this in comparison to what I used to do back in the day, like, I was doing Top of the Pops or whatever, which was me reading lines.

但《流行音乐排行榜》还是很酷的，对吧？

But that's pretty cool still, Top of the Pops, isn't it?

意思是这太酷了。

Mean That's very cool.

我记得我盘腿坐在电视前看大家。

I remember sitting cross legging in front of that everyone.

我记得我主持过那次，你当时和Baby Shambles一起出现。

Well, I remember I've hosted it when you were on it with Baby Shambles.

我记得那件事。

I remember that.

是基里马扎罗那期吗？还是哪一期？

The Kilimanjaro one or the, which one was it?

不是那个我们不得不暂停拍摄、观众群里发生打斗的那期吗？是那一期吗？你当时在场吗？

Not the one where we had to stop filming it, where there was a punch up in the crowd, was it that one or were you there for that?

是的，我当时在场。

Yep, I was there for that.

对，就是那个巨大的

Yeah, there's that massive

你扔了那堆垃圾，然后就打起来了。

Gave in the you shit and then there was a fight.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我主持了那场活动。

I I hosting that.

是的。

Yeah.

我没忘记那件事，因为那真是个重要的时刻。

I I haven't forgotten that because it was quite a moment.

但我认为，我们现在的对话或许能让人感到振奋，或者减轻他们对过去某些事情的担忧，不管是什么。

But I think this feels like, hopefully we're making conversations that will make people feel boosted or maybe less worried about their own things in the past or whatever it might be.

这正是这一切的意义所在。

That's the point of all of it.