“硬分叉”直播第二部分：Dylan Field 谈如何在人工智能时代脱颖而出

本期《Hard Fork》由我们的2026年现场活动赞助商倾情呈现。

This episode of Hard Fork is brought to you by our Hard Fork Live twenty twenty six sponsors.

首席赞助商：IBM。

Premier sponsor, IBM.

联合赞助商：Ever Pure、Pure Leaf 和圣母大学；支持赞助商：Atlassian。

Associate sponsors, Ever Pure, Pure Leaf, and the University of Notre Dame, and supporting sponsor, Atlassian.

欢迎回来，各位《Hard Fork》的听众。

Welcome back, Hard Fork listeners.

本周，我们将为您带来更多精彩来自《Hard Fork》现场的访谈，还有一场特别的音乐演出。

This week, we are bringing you more interviews from Hard Fork Live and a special musical performance.

今天，我们邀请到了Figma的首席执行官迪伦·菲尔德进行对话，同时还有丹·鲍威尔的音乐表演——他是《纽约时报》的音乐人和作曲家，长期为本节目创作，也在旧金山的现场活动中担任DJ。

Today, we are featuring an interview with Dylan Field, the CEO of Figma, as well as a musical performance by Dan Powell, one of the New York Times musicians and composers who works on the show and who was there in San Francisco at the live event as our DJ.

是的。

Yeah.

这一系列内容非常精彩，既有与Figma的迪伦·菲尔德的深度对话，又有丹·鲍威尔的传奇演出，他可是我们最喜爱的人之一。

This is a really fun collection of segments, fascinating conversations with Figma's Dylan Field, and a just legendary performance from Dan Powell, who is one of our favorite people.

在这里工作最有趣的一点，就是能听到这么酷的音乐。

And one of the most fun things about working here is getting to hear dance cool music.

我们

We'll be

周五还会带来更多精彩内容，包括和丹尼尔·科卡泰洛、夏什·卡普尔的对话，还有和德瓦克什·帕特尔的聊天，并且现场回答观众提问。

back with more Hard Fork live on Friday, including a discussion with Daniel Cocatello and Syash Kapoor, a hang with Dwarkesh Patel, and we'll take questions live from the crowd.

这些内容之前都审核过吗？

Now have those been screened in advance?

不是。

No.

好的。

Okay.

他们说话太随意了。

They're firing from the hip.

我给我弟弟订了一份《纽约时报》的订阅。

I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.

她给我订了一年的订阅，所以我能玩所有游戏。

She sent me a yearlong subscription so I have access to all the games.

我们会玩拼字游戏、迷你版和拼写蜜蜂。

We'll do Wordle, Mini, Spelling Bee.

这让我们之间有了更紧密的联系。

It has given us a personal connection.

我们会互相分享文章。

We exchange articles.

既然读了同一篇文章，我们就能一起讨论。

And so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

报道的内容、选择的多样性，这不只是新闻。

The coverage, the options, it's not just news.

真是份特别贴心的礼物。

Such a diversified gift.

我特别高兴送他一个《纽约时报》烹饪订阅，这样我们就能一起分享菜谱。

I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes.

前几天我们还分享了一个食谱呢。

And we even just shared a recipe the other day.

《纽约时报》让我们的相处时光更有质量。

The New York Times contributes to our quality time together.

所有这些信息都触手可及。

You have all of that information at your fingertips.

它丰富了我们的关系，也开阔了我们的视野。

It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons.

这份礼物既贴心又特别。

It was such a a cool and thoughtful gift.

我们在看同样的内容。

We're reading the same stuff.

我们在做同样的菜。

We're making the same food.

我们的想法完全一致。

We're on the same page.

更深入地与你关心的人建立联系。

Connect even more with someone you care about.

了解更多关于将《纽约时报》订阅作为礼物送出的信息，请访问 nytimes.com/gift。

Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes.com/gift.

今晚我们还有更多精彩内容等着你。

Well, we have so much more to come tonight.

你可能难以置信，但我们对下一位嘉宾特别期待。

I know it's hard to believe, but we are so excited for our next guest.

我们的下一位嘉宾是 Figma 的首席执行官，这是一款成立于2012年的基于人工智能和网页的设计工具。

Our next guest is the CEO of Figma, an AI and web based design application founded in 2012.

他就是戴伦·菲尔德。

It's Dylan Field.

戴伦，欢迎你。

Dylan, welcome.

你好。

Hey.

大家好。

Hey, guys.

很高兴见到你。

Nice see you.

嗨，戴伦。

Hey, Dylan.

嗨。

Hey.

戴伦，我想先读一段我2009年8月5日收到的Facebook私信给你。

So, Dylan, I wanna start by reading you a Facebook message I got on 08/05/2009.

嗨，凯文。

Hey, Kevin.

我最近读了你的书。

I recently picked up your book

是在图书馆借的。

at the library.

只是想告诉你，我真的很喜欢这本书。

Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed it.

总之，祝你未来一切顺利。

Anyway, best of luck with your future endeavors.

今年秋天我要去布朗大学。

I'm going to Brown this fall.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

也许有一天我在普罗维登斯能遇见你。

Maybe I'll meet you in Providence someday.

这条消息是一个叫戴伦·菲尔德的少年发的，我首先得向你道歉。

That message was sent by a teenage boy named Dylan Field, and I wanna just, first of all, apologize.

我从不回这种消息。

I never respond to that.

所以你能解决这个问题。

So You can fix this.

你能想象吗？你写了一本书，突然有个大学生给你发邮件，你心里就想，是啊。

Can you imagine you write a book and a college student emails you out of the blue, you're like, yeah.

随便吧。

Whatever.

你知道的，那阵子事情太多了。

It was, you know Get a lot going on.

2009年的时候，事情真是一堆接着一堆。

Lot going on in 2009.

总之，对不起没回你消息。

Anyway, I'm sorry for ghosting you.

其次呢，

And second of all

那本书写得真不错。

It was a good book.

你真该读一读。

You shall read it.

你大学一年级过得怎么样？

How did your freshman year of college go?

特别棒。

It was awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我还见到了你。

And I got to meet you.

对。

Yeah.

我不知道你还记不记得，你当时参加的那个无伴奏合唱团，你作为超龄学长回来过。

Because I don't know if you remember, but for the acapella group that you were in, you came back as a super senior Mhmm.

大概是想跟大家聚一聚吧？

To hang out with everyone, I guess?

是的。

Yeah.

包括那些新生吗？

Including the new freshmen?

是的。

Yeah.

结果你那年过得太好了，干脆退学搬去硅谷闯荡，一路走来确实不简单。

Well, it was it went so well that you dropped out and and moved to Silicon Valley to seek your fortune here, and it's been quite a run for you.

Figma去年上市了，经历了一段惊心动魄的旅程，我想先跟你聊聊AI，听说你已经深度入坑了，我还在你的社交媒体上看到你一直在折腾各种AI小项目。

Figma went public last year, has had a a wild ride, and I want to talk to you first about AI because I have heard that you are quite AI pilled, and I have seen on your social media accounts that you are constantly experimenting with AI, doing all these AI side projects.

你具体在搞些什么？你不会已经得了AI妄想症吧？

What are you doing, and then do you have AI psychosis?

我觉得与其让妄想症悄悄找上门，不如主动迎上去，早点适应。

I I think it's best to front run the psychosis rather than like have it sneak up on you.

直接跳进去，一次性搞定它。

You just gotta dive right in and you get it over with.

不过我有时候也会问自己，现在看来，应该还没到那一步。

But, yeah, I ask myself sometimes and I don't think so right now.

我觉得我对模型擅长什么、不擅长什么，有着比较合理的看法。

I think I've got a pretty reasonable take on what models are good at, where they're not so great.

不过，看到这些新功能确实很有意思。

But it's it's really interesting to see the new capabilities.

我现在正在做氛围映射。

Right now, I'm vibe mapping.

什么是氛围映射？

What's vibe mapping?

其实就是用AI来做数学题。

Well, it's basically where you do math but with AI.

而且，你

And, Are

是在证明费马大定理吗？

you proving Fermat's last theorem?

没有，我才没做那个呢。

What are No, I'm not.

我觉得最有趣的是看AI是怎么解决这些问题的。

Basically, I think it's just interesting to see how AI attacks these problems.

这跟Figma完全相反。

It's the opposite of Figma.

在Figma里，我们是个设计平台。

In Figma, we're a design platform.

我们经常在评估这些模型，看它们在设计方面表现如何，哪些功能值得用，哪些该放进产品里，让用户去体验——但这种评估根本没法验证。

We often are evaluating the models, trying to see how good they are at design, what we should use, what we should put in our product, expose users, and it's like the opposite of verifiable.

你和我看到一件东西，可能会对它的设计好坏有不同看法，但像数学、计算机科学这些领域，答案就是对或错，没得商量。

You and I can look at something and disagree or agree on the merits of it and the design merits of it, but, you know, there are some domains like math, some aspects of computer science where things are correct or they're not.

所以我特别觉得有意思，能看到这种差异——在那些能明确验证的领域，AI的表现真的很强。

And so I I think it's really cool to see that range and the verifiable domains models are very good

现在是这样。

at now.

Casey读高中的时候，就是靠‘ vibe 数学 ’混过来的。

Casey vibe mathed his way through high school.

他们让他挂科了，不过很高兴看到你现在进展得不错。

They flunked him, but I'm glad it's going better for you.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我没什么结果，所以得说清楚一点。

I don't have any results, so just be very clear.

我想多了解一下，你在做这些项目的时候，是怎么运用人工智能的？

I I wanna hear a little bit more about, like, what direction you are taking all of your AI use in as you sort of, you know, pursue these projects?

听起来你做的这些都像是个人兴趣，纯粹图个乐子。

This sounds like a lot of sort of like personal stuff that you're doing for fun.

这纯粹是终身学习者的好奇心驱使，还是你有什么特别想找到的东西？

Is that just sort of like the curiosity of a lifelong learner or is there something specific that you're trying to find?

我发现，只要你支持某项技术，哪怕不清楚它最终会带来什么回报，往往会在意想不到的地方派上用场。

I find that just in general, the more that you like you're supporting technology, don't you know how it's gonna pay off or what benefit it will have, but ends up having some benefit in weird ways you can expect.

我早期对NFT特别感兴趣，结果它们现在变成了这样。

I was very excited about NFTs early on and they became what they are now.

那时候还不叫NFT。

They weren't called NFTs then.

那时候叫加密收藏品，因为那听起来挺酷的。

They're called crypto collectibles because that was a cool phrase.

但不管是一开始的加密收藏品，还是后来的WebGL，最终催生了Figma，我总是喜欢深入探索这些技术，弄清楚它们能做什么，因为总能找到用得上的地方。

But, you know, it was like, whether it's that or, you know, WebGL, which led to Figma, I I just always try to explore stuff and, like, go deep on it, figure out the capabilities because you can find ways to use them.

我有个想法想跟你聊聊，现在硅谷的每个初创公司创始人、CEO都着迷于‘氛围编程’。

I have a theory that I wanna run past you, is that, you know, that now you can't every startup founder, CEO in Silicon Valley is obsessed with vibe coding.

他们都在周末做这个。

They're all doing it on the weekends.

到了周一，他们就会说，我们到底为什么要开发这个东西？

They come in on Mondays and then, you know, they say, why what you know, why are we building this thing?

以前得五十个人才做得出来。

50 people used to build this thing.

我一个周末就搞定了。

I just built it in a weekend.

这快把员工逼疯了。

It's driving their employees crazy.

但我对这事有个看法，那就是这让他们想起了当年做工作还挺有意思的时光。

But I have I my theory about this is that this is this is reminding CEOs of what it was like when their jobs were fun.

你认同这个说法吗？

Do you agree with that statement?

你说你对这个感到害怕。

Said you're fearful of that.

不，那是我的观点。

No, that's my theory.

哦，观点啊。

Oh, theory.

明白了。

Okay.

不好意思，刚才听错了。

Sorry, misheard you.

我觉得人们天生喜欢创造东西，喜欢设计，喜欢把自己的想法以更具体的方式带到现实中。

I think that people like to make things, and they like to design stuff, and they like to actually put their ideas out in the world in a more tangible way.

我觉得未来这种趋势会越来越普遍，不只是 CEOs 周末找点乐子而已。

And I think we're just gonna see more of it from everyone, not just CEOs trying to have fun on the weekend.

说到动手做东西，Figma 最近推出了一则广告，专门调侃‘设计已死’这种说法。

Speaking of making stuff, Figma recently launched an ad campaign organized around the idea sort of making fun of the idea that design is dead.

这种观点在人工智能时代可能更常见了。

It's sort of a more common sentiment maybe in the era of AI.

你能不能帮我们论证一下，在我只要在框里打个字就能生成想要的应用程序的今天，设计为什么还没死？

Make that case for us that design is not dead in a world where I can just sort of, you know, type what kind of app I want into a box.

从我2009年在Facebook上发的那条消息到现在，这段经历简直像坐过山车一样。

This is a real roller coaster from my 2009 Facebook message now to Design

我这可是全面覆盖了。

Is I'm covering it all.

现在又转向另一个方向了。

It's taking a turn.

你看啊

Look,

网上现在到处都是各种极端观点。

think that there's so many hot takes online.

我猜你每小时都能收到好几条。

I'm sure you get a few of them an hour.

没错。

Sure.

我觉得每次新模型发布，大家都会急着找点东西说它完蛋了，因为现在社交媒体上，非黑即白，要么是彻底回归，要么就是彻底完蛋。

I think when new models drop, everyone's looking for something that they can say is dead because on social media now, it's like either you're so back or it's over.

我更愿意相信它是回归了。

I prefer to be back.

不过说到重点，看到大家终于跟上技术的进展，确实挺有意思，你也确实做了不少事。

But no, mean in terms of the case, it's interesting to see folks catch up to the capabilities and it's like, yeah, you do a lot.

但平均来看，AI的回应——不管是写作领域还是别的——我现在的看法是，真正懂写作、会深入思考写作的人，现在正是最好的时候。

But the average response from AI, whether it's a domain like writing, my hot take right now would be, I actually think that people that know how to write and actually engage in critical thinking around writing, it's a good time for them.

现在对他们来说正是好时候。

It's a good time for them.

对。

Yeah.

你之前跟我说过，我也这么觉得。

Well, you told me, but I think so.

对。

Yeah.

一半的观众都在鼓掌，可他们自己也不确定。

It's like half the audience is applauding, they're like, I don't know.

我们该不该这么做呢？

Should we should we not?

这会不会太讨好人家了？

Is it too, like, are we sucking up?

我

I

我的意思是，写作能体现一个人的批判性思维能力，这一点上，拥有出色的批判性思维确实很有优势。

mean, I think I think, like, you know, to the extent that writing is a showcase for your critical thinking abilities, like, yes, like having great critical thinking skills are always like a a boon.

但这更多是风格的问题。

Like, is the But it's style.

最近怎么样？

What's up?

这是一种写作风格。

It's a style of writing.

当然。

Sure.

如果你幽默，有自己的表达方式，有独特的语气，那就会不一样。

Like, if you're funny, if you've got an actual, like, way you phrase things, if you have voice.

现在这种情况比几年前更明显了。

And think it's especially true right now in a way that wasn't a few years ago.

三五年前，我总说，天啊，社交媒体上好多人都在写特别有意思的东西。

Three, five years ago, I always said, Oh man, there's a lot of people on social media that are writing really interesting things.

我们现在生活在一个有Substack的世界里，很多人在那里发布内容，而且质量都很高。

We're in this world where there's sub stack and people are putting content there and it's really good.

现在我一看，就觉得这东西真是参差不齐。

Now I look at that and I'm like, Man, it's a lot of clod.

也许我对那些明显用AI写作的人太过敏感了。

Maybe I'm over rotated even on identifying people that are basically using AI to write.

设计领域也是同样的情况。

Same thing is true for design.

人们看网站或应用时，往往只注意到那些平庸的普遍风格。

Folks are basically looking at these websites or applications and seeing the average.

他们可能还过度放大了这种现象。

Maybe they're even over identifying it.

但我觉得，无论写作还是设计，只要你有独特的创意表达，敢于展现自我、承担风险，现在正是时候。

But I think if you have a creative voice writing or design, you put yourself out there and you like take a risk, this is a good time to do that.

这种做法一定会得到回报。

It's something that's going to be rewarded.

是的。

Yeah.

我能想象，在你看来，也许正因为能用AI工具快速做出一个设计，我会更想真正把本事练好，而不是满足于第一版。

And I can imagine, you know, maybe in your view, there's a world where the fact that I can use an AI tool to quickly whip up a design might make me more interested in actually getting good, right?

不会止步于最初的那个版本。

And sort of like not settling for the first generation.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

关键是怎么不满足于初稿、第一版输出，而是去打磨、雕琢，把它推向更高的水平。

It's like how do you not settle for the first draft, the first thing out there, the first output, and actually mold it and craft it and push it further.

我觉得你越能这么做，发布的作品就越多，也越能脱颖而出。

I think that the more you can do that, the more you'll send out and also the more you'll be differentiated.

最近我们看到一些数据，关于App Store里的应用数量。

Think that there's going to be, we saw the data recently on the number of apps in the App Store.

应用数量暴涨了不少，但真正被频繁使用的应用数量却没怎么变。

It went up a ton, but the number of apps actually being used and getting frequent traffic is still the same.

所以现在你处在一个极其竞争的环境里，必须做出区别。

So you're basically this hyper competitive environment now where you have to differentiate.

你得真正投入进去，找到属于自己的独特声音和视角，就像写作一样，不能只靠平庸的表达。

You really have to lean in and figure out how to have a unique voice and a unique take and you get point away from view just like writing.

现在旧金山最火的词就是‘品味’。

The the big buzzword in San Francisco right now is taste.

大家都在说，品味是抵御被AI取代的最后一道防线。

Everyone's talking about taste as the the sort of bulwark against being replaced by AI.

只要你有品味，就不用担心。

If you have taste, you'll be fine.

我觉得这还是头一回，品味在旧金山成了这么热门的话题。

It's the first time taste has ever been a big subject in San Francisco, I think.

没错。

Yes.

这座城市从一开始就让所有东西都显得毫无品味。

This is a city that made all birds a

自1821年以来就以毫无品味著称。

Proudly tasteless since 1821.

我听过一些人说，其实‘品味’这个词，只是我们用来形容那些模型还做不好的部分。

And then I've heard some people argue that, actually, taste is just the word we give to the stuff that the models aren't very good at yet.

以前AI研究人员总说：‘模型可没有品味。’

You know, researchers in AI used to say, oh, but they don't have taste.

可后来模型进步了，大家才反应过来：等等，不对劲。

And then the models got better, and it was like, oh, wait a minute.

也许模型也能搞定所有需要‘品味’的工作。

Maybe they can do all of the taste parts of the job too.

所以，把‘品味’当成关键能力来捍卫，可能只是还没用过好模型的人的自我安慰。

So is defend the concept of taste as being either important or cope from people who just haven't used the good models yet.

说到底，规律就是：新模型一出来，你总觉得它无所不能，等发现它的局限后，才明白生活照常继续。

I mean, the cycle seems to be the model comes out, you think it can do everything, you discover the limits, and then you realize that life goes on.

将来某一天，这种情况会不会有所不同，从而以另一种方式影响世界？

Will at some point that be different and affect the world in a different way?

也许吧，时间会告诉我们。

Perhaps, we'll see.

但到目前为止，大家似乎都在适应，而适应的一部分就是意识到模型正在推出的新常态。

But so far it seems like everyone's adapting and part of the adaptation is realizing the sort of new average that's being put out by the models.

我觉得根本没必要为‘品味’这件事辩护，也不用争论人到底有没有品味。

And I think it's not even you don't even have to defend taste and people having taste because then we'd argue about do they?

只要承认人们可以挑战这种平均值就够了。

To just recognize people can attack the average.

他们可以拿这些输出结果，然后大胆地做出更多突破。

They can take that output and they can dare to do more.

但我确实相信，现在是个特别适合创作的时代。

But I also do believe that this is a great time to be creative.

我觉得模型产出的东西越多，就越符合它的训练分布，这是由模型的训练方式决定的。

I think that the more the models put out, that's in distribution because it's how the models are trained.

它们是基于数据的分布来训练的。

They're trained on distribution of data.

如果你只是停留在主流范围内，没有去突破边界，那你的状态其实比那些敢于探索人类知识、创造力的前沿，去创造真正新颖东西的人要更被动——因为那才是你真实的表达。

If you're in distribution and you're not actually pushing the bounds, think that you're in a worse shape than if you're actually going and exploring the frontier of human knowledge, creativity, and what you can put on the world and making something that's finally new is an expression of yourself.

所以我对这一点特别兴奋。

So I get excited about that.

我特别兴奋的是，我们在Figma，或者我们所参与的这些地方，有机会成为让人真正释放创造力的平台，打造能赋能人们的工具。

I get excited about our opportunity to be the place where people can really unlock their creativity at Figma and or one of the places that we many and just like creating tools that can empower people.

我想知道，你有没有注意到艺术和设计界对人工智能的反应？是什么样的？

I'm curious if you're seeing a reaction in the world of art and design to AI and what that looks like.

确实如此。

Right?

回想一下，照相机的发明催生了印象派。

You think back and the invention of the camera gets us impressionism.

对。

Mhmm.

现在AI让设计更容易上手了，设计界有没有出现类似的现象呢？

Do we have an analog for that yet in the design world now that AI makes design easier to access?

我觉得挺有意思的是，我们似乎在营销和广告领域看到了一些这样的反应。

I think it's interesting how we're seeing some of that reaction maybe in the world of marketing and advertising.

我不确定艺术界是不是也有类似的情况。

I don't know if maybe it's Appian and the art world.

我本来以为现在会有很多人热衷于雕塑，或者对质感特别感兴趣，但事实好像并不是这样。

Like I would have expected by now that people be really into sculpture in a way that they're not or just things with textures.

这要是我写艺术论文的题目，估计没人会请我当艺术顾问。

That'd be my like art thesis, know, so probably don't hire me as an art advisor.

但我觉得，这种趋势其实很自然——人们会更倾向于拥抱那些非数字化的东西。

But like, you know, I I think that that's probably natural reaction is like lean into the things that are not digital.

而在广告领域，我们现在看到很多品牌在努力证明自己的真实性，强调自己做的东西不是AI生成的。

Whereas I think in advertising now we're seeing ways to prove authenticity, to prove that you are actually making something that is not generated by AI.

有些公司正在大力推动这一点。

Some companies are really going for that.

在设计领域，我觉得我们正在看到，而且也会越来越多地看到——互动性更强、创造力更丰富，人们正把软件变成真正的创意媒介。

In the world of design, think that what we're going to see and what we are starting to see, a lot more interactivity, a lot more creativity, people really making software more of a creative medium.

我想起互联网刚起步的时候，那真是特别有意思。

I think back to the early days of the Internet and it was so fun.

说实话，过去十五年左右，也就是我们做Figma的这段时间，设计圈有点陷入僵局。

I feel like the last fifteen years or so, basically the time we've been working on Figma, we've been in a bit of a rut honestly.

设计风格和表达方式都太单一了，几乎是一种文化垄断。

A lot of very monoculture takes when it comes to design and the way it expresses.

那些总想在观众面前抛出惊人观点的人，会说这都是Figma的错。

The people that are trying to do hot takes in the audience will be like, In Figma's to blame.

根本不是这么回事。

Not.

你这样想可不对。

Shame on you.

对，就是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

凯西说了算。

Casey said it.

不过我觉得，如果我们能做得更多，让人能更进一步，创造出真正动态的界面，还有整体的营销和媒体内容，那就再好不过了。

But no, I think that the more we can do to make it so that people can push further and actually create really dynamic interfaces as well as marketing and media in general, the better.

你有没有看到过设计或艺术领域里由AI生成的作品，觉得特别出色的？

Have you seen anything that's been AI generated in the realm of design or art that you think is really good?

比如凯西推荐我看了《水果爱岛》，现在它成了我

Like, Casey turned me on to Fruit Love Island, which is now my

你们都看过吧。

You've all watched it.

我最爱的电视剧兼TikTok系列，但你有没有见过明显是AI生成的，却让你觉得挺有趣、挺有意思的东西？

My favorite TV show slash TikTok series, but is there anything that you've seen that is clearly AI generated where you're like, oh, that's actually kind of fun and interesting?

说实话，有，但这种新鲜感来得快去得也快。

You know, yes, and also it wears off fast.

我觉得这跟任何风格都一样。

I think it's just like any style.

《水果恋爱岛》第三季。

Season three of Fruit Love Island.

好吧。

So Okay.

没问题。

No problem.

还没消退呢。

Worn off yet.

还没。

Not yet.

他们搞在一起了。

The had an affair.

木瓜和香蕉要搭上线了。

The papaya and the banana are about to hook up.

太棒了。

It's great.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

听起来真诱人。

Sounds tantalizing.

我今晚一定得看看。

I'll have to watch it tonight.

我想回头聊聊你之前提到的写作的事。

I I wanna come back to something that you were saying about writing earlier.

自从你提起之后，这件事就一直在我脑子里转，因为你说到现在有了Substack，越来越多的人在写作，这点我完全同意，确实很棒。

It's just sort of been on my mind ever since you brought it up because you were bringing about the fact that, you know, we have Substack now and a lot more people are writing, which I agree with you is super cool.

之前萨蒂亚来的时候，提到他今天在Substack上读到的一篇文章。

When Satya was here earlier, he brought up post that he had read that was on Substack today.

我刚好也看了那篇，因为它是登在Techmeme上的。

I happened to read the same post because it was on Techmeme.

我看了之后，就想直接说一下。

And I read it, and I'm just gonna say it.

那篇文章是AI生成的。

It was plot generated.

明白吗？

Okay?

这让我挺不舒服的，因为我一直想让自己的文章登上Techmeme，可现在读到的却像是随便输个提示词就出来的内容。

And it irritated me as somebody who's always trying to get my stories on Techmeme because I'm like, I'm just reading like the output of a prompt.

所以看到这篇，我真心觉得，这对我们这一行不是好事。

And so when I read that, my my honest feeling is like, this is not good for my profession.

我们的职业正变得越来越像垃圾堆。

Like, my profession is starting to look more and more like slop.

我就在想，现场有没有设计师？你们是不是也有同样的感受？看到满大街的设计，心里清楚那不过是点一下按钮生成的。

And so I just wonder, like, if there are designers in the in the audience, if they're having a similar feeling when the, you know, they're they're looking at the designs that they're seeing everywhere and they're just knowing that it was outputted with the touch of a button.

其实，写作者和设计师都有一种共同的特质，就是自我怀疑。

Well, I mean, one quality that writers and designers also share is impostor syndrome.

确实如此。

Yeah.

给它贴个标签挺好的，这样你知道它在那儿，也不用每天都被它困扰，或者少受点影响。

And it's good to label it so that you know it's there and you don't have to deal with it every day or as much.

但我认为，设计师在科技行业里其实处于一个相当有利的位置。

But I I think it's designers are arguably in one of the best roles in technology.

我经常跟公司、客户聊天，他们都说现在在招设计师，有时候甚至不招其他人。

And I'm talking to companies all the time, customers, they're telling me that they're hiring designers, sometimes they're not hiring others.

设计是公司里最优先招聘的岗位之一。

But design is one of the most prioritized places in the company where they're hiring.

总的来说，大家还是在大量招人。

Overall folks are still hiring a lot.

这让我也挺困惑的。

This also perplexes me.

现在人人都说工作要被取代了，可转头又说，赶紧找几个顶尖工程师来加入我的团队。

We're in a world where folks are saying that all the jobs are gonna get replaced and they're then turning around and they're like, oh, let me call the really good engineers so I can get them to join my team.

目前来看，这逻辑上说不通，但我对设计这个角色充满信心，相信它会进一步推动公司发展。

So it just doesn't make sense to me right now in general, but I am very very bullish in design and the role it'll play in accelerating companies further.

所以你觉得两年后，拥有‘设计师’这个头衔的人会比现在多吗？

So you think like two years from today, like there are more people whose job title is designer than are than they have it today?

几年？

How many years?

就说两年吧。

Say two?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得会的。

I think so.

我觉得可能会多很多。

I think probably significantly more.

很多做其他工作的人，我觉得也会开始称自己为设计师或创意人员。

And a lot of people that are doing other jobs I think will start calling themselves designers, creatives.

总的来说，我们正看到越来越多的人感到自己必须成为一个通才。

You know, I think in general we're seeing more of this kind of generalist vibe that people are feeling like they have to embody.

有一件事挺有意思的，很多工程师就像你说的那样，开始踏上设计之路，因为他们做出了一个很大的东西，然后就问：接下来怎么办？

One thing that's been interesting is a lot of engineers, kind of like you're saying, getting started on their design journey because they make something so vast and they're like, now what?

这够好吗？

And is it good enough?

也许我该再深入一点。

Maybe I should push it further.

于是他们开始琢磨，该怎么做到呢？

And then they kind of are trying to figure out, okay, how do I do that?

所以我也对这部分特别感兴趣。

So I'm pretty excited about that part too.

我会让更多人以设计师的身份加入进来。

I'll bring more people in as designers.

今晚在观众席里有个朋友是产品经理，他原本不是技术背景，但现在能用先进的AI工具做出非常棒的原型。

I have a friend in the audience tonight who is a product manager who started out as a nontechnical person and is now able to create really amazing prototypes just you with the advanced AI tools.

我觉得未来，设计也会成为这种能力组合的一部分。

I can see a world where design gets added into that portfolio as well.

我觉得，这份工作最后可能不叫产品经理了。

Think that at the end of that job probably has a different name than PM.

不是每个人都能做出出色的设计，但只要你开始认真思考自己在做什么，敢于尝试并把它做出来，这本身就是设计。

Not all of will be great design, but the act of considering it and being thoughtful what you're doing and then actually putting it out and taking risk, man, it's design.

迪伦，咱们这话题也太高深了吧。

Dylan, this is a lot of high minded conversation.

咱们聊点八卦吧。

Let's gossip.

行啊。

Okay.

聊什么？

About what?

今年早些时候，

Earlier this year,

迈克·克里格，前Figma董事会成员、Anthropic的产品负责人、Instagram的联合创始人，突然辞去了你们董事会的职务，没过几天，Anthropic就发布了Clawd Design，这感觉跟Figma挺沾边的。

Mike Krieger, former board member at Figma, a product lead at Anthropic, cofounder of Instagram, was sudden he suddenly resigned from your board, and just days later, Anthropic announced Clawd Design, which feels a little Figma adjacent.

那到底发生什么事了？

So what the heck happened there?

你的故事都讲完了。

I mean, you just told a story.

不过我得说清楚一点。

But, I mean, let me be clear.

迈克人真的很好，我真的很在乎他。

Like, Mike Mike is a a great dude, and yeah, he's one I I really care about.

你以后还会让其他AI公司的高管加入你的董事会吗？

Would you let another AI lab executive onto your board in the future?

这事儿发展成这样，主要是因为突然冒出些意料之外的产品，所以还得看对方的野心有多大。

Well, I mean, saw how that went in terms of like, you know, unexpected products rolling out and so probably depends on what their ambitions are.

对。

Yeah.

等等。

Wait.

从普遍意义上说，你可不是在八卦。

In a in a general sense, you're not gossip.

你忘了那些人其实都在场。

You forget these people are there.

就咱们自己人聊聊罢了。

It's just us just us birds.

抱歉，各位。

Sorry, y'all.

就咱们自己人聊聊罢了。

Just us birds.

一般来说，我觉得很多首席执行官都担心AI实验室会越来越垂直整合，比如直接收购保险公司或者会计事务所。

In a general sense, I think a lot of CEOs are worried about the AI labs sort of integrating more vertically, like, you know, taking over insurance companies or accounting firms.

我们已经开始看到这种情况了，这些实验室正不断扩展到周边行业，给那些原本就在这些领域运营的公司带来巨大压力。

We are starting to see some of that happen where these labs are just kind of expanding into all the adjacent industries and really creating tough times for the companies in those industries already.

你认为这种情况还会继续下去吗？

Do you expect that to continue?

这些实验室是不是就会一直这样不断扩张，变成一团模糊的庞然大物，给那些领域的初创公司带来一堆麻烦？

Are these labs just kind of gonna continue to grow and grow and grow and just become these, like, amorphous blobs that just, you know, create havoc for all the the smaller startups in those fields?

不如我们来讲讲两个AI实验室的故事吧。

Well, I mean, let's tell a tale of two AI labs.

你看OpenAI和Anthropic，OpenAI就走过了这么一段路。

You know, you got OpenAI and Anthropic, and OpenAI kind of went through that journey.

他们推出过很多产品，甚至还有社交平台，比如Sora，我特别喜欢。

They launched a lot of stuff, social network even, Sora, which I really enjoyed.

我知道你也喜欢，Casey。

I know you did too, Casey.

那确实挺有意思的。

That's some fun.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不过话说回来，说到AI生成，我确实挺享受看自己跳霹雳舞的那段。

Anyway, so, you know, speaking of AI generation, I mean, I did enjoy watching myself breakdance.

你等下今晚还能再看到他跳一次。

And you'll see him do it again later tonight.

和机器人一起。

With the robot.

但不管怎样，我觉得他们最终决定关停这个项目、集中公司资源，这个决定很难做，但我很佩服他们做了这个选择。

But anyway, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, then they've made the hard call of actually shutting that down and focusing the efforts of the company, And that's a hard call to make, but respect that they did it.

另外，我觉得Anthropic现在正处于扩张阶段，一直在推出各种新东西。

Then also I think, you know, you've got Anthropic is kind of in its arc of being more expansionary, they're thinking, launching all the stuff.

你能看到哪些东西有效、哪些没效，然后过一年再回头看会发生什么。

And I think you see what works and what doesn't, and then you see a year later what happens.

我觉得更有趣的问题是，一两年后，他们还会在哪些领域继续活跃？

I think the more interesting question is a year or two years out, where will they be playing still?

不是每件事都能成功。

Not everything works.

做产品并推向市场真的很难。

It's hard to build product and get out in the world.

你觉得他们会尝试哪些但最终失败的事情？

What are some things that you think they will attempt and fail at?

哎呀，我也不清楚。

Oh, I don't know.

安全方面？

Safety?

开玩笑的。

Joking.

说得很好。

Very good.

这可能是《Hard Fork Live》里最棒的回答了。

That might be the best answer of Hard Fork Live