Sarah Snook

我是埃文·罗斯·卡茨，欢迎收听《回归》官方播客。

I'm Evan Ross Katz, your host for the Comeback Official podcast.

每周，我都会与联合创作者、执行制片人、编剧兼

Every week, I'll be joined by co creator, executive producer, writer,

主演丽莎·库特罗一起登场。

and star Lisa Cutro.

我非常享受扮演瓦莱丽的感觉。

I love being Valerie.

以及联合创作者、执行制片人、编剧、导演和剧集主管迈克尔·帕特里克·金。

And co creator, executive producer, writer, director, and showrunner Michael Patrick King.

来点真料吧。

Here's the real tea.

说吧。

Go ahead.

每一集，我们都会带您幕后探秘，分享我们对瓦莱丽·谢里什的热爱。

Each episode, we'll be going behind the scenes and sharing our love for Valerie Cherish.

作为一个多年来一直喜爱这部剧的人，看到自从我们上次见到她之后世界发生了如此巨大的变化，真是令人震惊。

As someone who has loved this show for years, it's wild to see just how much the world has changed since we last saw her.

而且，当我们知道公司的情况时，总会有争夺成为最受宠孩子的斗争。

And there's always that fight for supremacy to be the favorite child when we know that the company is.

所以，在某种程度上，这就像与魔鬼做交易：如果你能成为公司的负责人，你就能成为最受宠的孩子，因为你将变成公司本身。

And so in some ways, a deal with the devil where if you can be the head of the company, then you get to be the favorite child because you will become the company.

我的意思是，这太令人作呕了。

I mean, that's so sickening.

你将成为这个王国。

You will become the kingdom.

这里是罗杰·贝内特在HBO的《继承之战》播客中，这档节目属于Volta内容农场的一部分。

This is Roger Bennett on HBO's Succession podcast, a show which is part of the Volta content farm.

今天我的嘉宾是目前电视上最具复杂性的角色之一。

My guest today is one of the most complex characters currently on television.

西沃恩·希夫·罗伊，务实、敏锐、尖刻、隐秘、傲慢，热爱非一夫一妻制的关系、无拘无束的权力和无背高领衫，对于一个以武器命名的角色来说，她确实能无情地撕碎一切。

Siobhan Shiv Roy, grounded, astute, acerbic, clandestine, entitled, lover of non monogamous relationships, unbridled power, and backless turtlenecks, fittingly for a character named after a weapon she can savage.

她的兄弟、丈夫，任何威胁她家庭的人，她都如自己所说，是父亲洛根那个厌女警察身边的‘好人警察’。

Her brothers, her husband, anyone threatening her family, she is, as she puts it herself, the good cop to her father Logan's misogynistic cop.

她是这片停滞的、有毒的男性主导池塘中唯一的女性，曾被许诺继承罗伊科帝国的控制权，却发现自己在等待一场老派恐龙式清洗时，锁早已被换掉。

The lone woman swimming in a stagnant cesspool of toxic masculinity, one who was promised the keys had away Star Royco empire, only to discover the locks have been quickly changed as she waits for a good old fashioned dinosaur cull.

他向我提了一个该死的提议，而我打算兑现这张优惠券。

He made me a fucking offer, and I'm gonna redeem that coupon.

扮演希芙的嘉宾来自澳大利亚，如今已享誉国际。

My guest, who plays Shiv, has emerged from Australia to gain international renown.

就连海伦·米伦这样的权威都称她‘极其出色’。

No less an expert than Helen Mirren has held out as, quote, spectacular.

能邀请她加入我，这位‘惊愕侧目女王’，真是莫大的荣幸。

It's a great joy to have her join me, the queen of the astonished side eye.

欢迎，莎拉·斯努克。

Welcome, Sarah Snook.

嗨。

Hi.

这开场真厉害。

What an intro.

天哪。

Jesus.

我累坏了，莎拉。

I'm exhausted, Sarah.

谢天谢地你来了。

Thank God you're here.

你现在在哪里？

Where are we finding you right now?

我在澳大利亚的墨尔本。

I'm in Melbourne, in Australia.

你出生的国家，与推动《继承之战》的曼哈顿0.1%黑暗权谋相比，简直远在天边。

Your country of birth, about as far away from the dark arts Manhattan 0.1% skullduggery that propels succession as is humanly possible.

在阿德莱德山丘长大，是三个热爱冒险的姐妹中最年幼的一个，我对阿德莱德这个城市唯一的了解就是，它是澳大利亚最干燥的城市，拥有19处沉船墓地。

Growing up in Adelaide Hills as the youngest of three adventure loving sisters, the only things I know about Adelaide, a town, is that it's the driest city in Australia, home to 19 ship graveyards.

还有，默多克家族就是从这个小镇开始经营报纸的。

Also, the town the Murdoch's got their start owning newspapers.

跟我们说说你在南澳大利亚长大的经历吧。

Tell us about your world growing up in South Australia.

是的。

Yeah.

那真的非常不同。

It's so different.

我不记得我有没有见过亿万富翁。

I don't know if I've ever met a billionaire.

也许我见过。

Maybe I have.

我不确定。

I don't know.

他们可能比罗伊家族更低调一些，也更有品位。

They probably keep themselves a little more quiet than the Roy's do, a little more classy.

我七岁生日时住在阿德莱德的一个国家公园旁边。

I grew up next to a national park in Adelaide for my seventh birthday.

我妈妈和姐姐在国家公园里办了一场寻宝游戏，把糖果藏在公园各处，用来装满我们的派对包。

My mom and my sister did a scavenger hunt in the national park where they put lollies to fill our party bags all throughout the national park.

我们要读线索，然后根据谜题说：好吧，谜题是这个，接着骑自行车去池塘，找到下一批糖果，那时候我们露营在野外，到处跑来跑去。

Had to read notes and then go, Okay, the riddle is this, and then ride our bike to the pond and find the next lollies of throwing up camping and out in the bush and carrying around.

而且，作为三个孩子中最小的一个，我比他们小十到六岁，所以经常得自己待着，自娱自乐，大部分时间就是到处跑，弄得满身是泥。

And also, the youngest of three, I mean, 10 and six years older than me, kind of had to spend a lot of time by myself, making my own fun, and a lot of that was running around and getting rubby.

你的父母从小培养你冒险的精神，对吧？

Your parents brought you up with the spirit of adventure, right?

他们真的努力把这种精神灌输给你。

They really tried to embed that in you.

是的，每到长周末或假期，我们都会去露营。

Yeah, would go camping every long weekend we had or every holiday.

反正也不是什么五星酒店或私人飞机，我们三个人挤在一辆揽胜的后座，开车十四个小时，去一个朋友的朋友拥有的牧场，打野猪或打兔子，好减少动物数量。

It wasn't five star resorts or private jets anyway, was three of us in the back seat in the Range Rover getting fourteen hour drive to some station owned by a friend of a friend where we would go pig shooting or rabbit shooting to get girls' animal numbers down.

是的，这就像一场车祸。

Yeah, it's a car crash.

想亲身体验一下。

Want to experience.

你大约在2010年在澳大利亚崭露头角，因此在大洋洲成名。

You broke out as an actor in Australia around 2010, which made you Oceana famous.

一个个抢镜的角色接踵而至。

The scene stealing roles kept coming.

2014年出演伊桑·霍克的科幻片《预兆》，2015年饰演史蒂夫·乔布斯中苹果公司 relentless 的公关人员。

A 2014 Ethan Hawke sci fi film Predestination, Apple's relentless PR person in 2015 Steve Jobs.

我特别喜欢你在《黑镜》剧集《人对抗机器》中饰演的风暴兵小队队长这个出色角色。

I loved your terrific role as a stormtrooper unit leader in the Black Mirror episode Men Against Fire.

但当《继承之战》的试镜机会来临时，你人还在澳大利亚。

You were back in Australia, though, when the Succession audition came around.

告诉我们你是何时得知这个机会的，在澳大利亚录制试镜片段时，以及提交试镜时的信心如何。

Tell us when you heard about it, the take you made in Australia, and your confidence levels as you submitted.

由于自信心下降，兴趣水平也随之大幅降低。

Confidence level is well down and also interest level is well down as a result of confidence levels.

如果你觉得自己得不到某样东西，你就会欺骗自己，让自己不再想要它。

There's a way you can deceive yourself into not wanting something if you don't think you're able to get it.

我觉得谢夫在这一点上也有种非常熟悉的感觉。

I think there's something very familiar with Shiv in that sense as well.

是的，我虽然不太情愿，但还是从墨尔本提交了自拍试镜视频，后来被邀请去试镜，当时真觉得自己是个来自大洋洲的黑马。

Yeah, mean, just submitted a self shape from Melbourne reluctantly, but got it done and was flown over to audition and really did think, was like, Well, I'm the antipodeon dark horse here.

我根本没指望能拿到这个角色，或者他们早就内定了别人，只是用我来作为筹码，对抗他们更心仪的那位女演员的经纪人提出的条件。

I'm not gonna actually get the role or they've got someone in line that they want and they want to use me as leverage to counter argument whatever their agent's asking for that much preferred other actress.

太棒了，我就能去洛杉矶度个周末，见见朋友，来去匆匆。

Awesome, I get a trip to LA for the weekend, I'll get to see my friends, get in, get out.

我在那个过程中见到了杰里米。

I met Jeremy during that process.

我们一起试镜了，那场面真够疯狂的。

We did audition together, which was wild.

杰里米·斯特龙。

Jeremy Strong.

是的，他完全掌控了全场。

Yeah, and he totally owned the room.

他知道他在那里要做什么。

He knew what he was doing there.

我完全不知道自己在做什么。

I didn't know what I was doing at all.

我心里想着：闭上嘴，多看多观察，然后继续前进。

I'm like, Keep your mouth shut, keep sort of watching and move on through.

然后我回到澳大利亚，难得地去度假了。

And then got back to Australia and went on a holiday for once.

那时我几乎没怎么休过假。

Very rarely had taken a holiday at that point.

当时我和我的男朋友一起开车环游了新西兰，非常棒。

My boyfriend at the time and I went on a road trip around New Zealand, which was great.

然后杰西和亚当打来电话，说需要开个会。

Then got a call from Jesse and Adam saying they needed to have a meeting.

我当时想：哎呀，我正忙呢。

I'm like, Well, I'm busy.

真的很抱歉。

I'm so sorry.

我真的在忙。

I'm busy.

我在度假。

I'm on holiday.

我们只是在无意识地演绎着希夫的基础性格部分。

We're just like unconsciously playing out foundational parts of Shiv.

他们一定很高兴。

They must have been delighted.

他们挂掉你电话的时候，你还说抱歉，我正忙。

When they put the phone down on you and you were like, sorry, I'm busy.

我们在我自己的时间里做。

We do it on my time.

他们一定对视了一眼，心想：我们找对人了。

They must have looked at each other and been like, we got the right person for the role.

因为通常作为演员，你会觉得：跳。

Because usually as an actor, you're like, jump.

跳多高？这是答案。

How high is the answer?

所以当他们问能不能开个会时，我就说：当然可以，但我得把会安排进我的时间里。

And so when they ask if they could have a meeting, was like, well, yeah, of course, but I need to have it scheduled into my time.

然后我甚至都没意识到，因为这在商务对话中是个再小、再基础、再平常不过的举动。

And then I don't even realize that because it's such a small, basic, regular thing you do in business conversation.

你有空吗？

Are you available?

没空，我们找个更好的时间吧。

No, let's find a better time.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

这是一场应该发生的对话。

That is a conversation that should happen.

但作为演员，每次被要求做事情时，你都会下意识地说好并点头。

But as an actor, end up going yes and nodding every time that you are asked to do something.

这是我第一次举手说：不，不，不。

And this is the first time I was putting my hand up saying, no, no, no.

我们先一起讨论一下。

We'll discuss as a conversation first together.

你是在有意模仿希夫吗，莎拉？

Were you intentionally channeling Shiv, Sarah?

不是。

No.

天啊，不行。

God, no.

我去试镜了，根本完全不像这个角色，我觉得我肯定拿不到这个角色。

I did the audition and was so not this character that I'm so not going to get her.

所以即使当我被提供这个角色时，我的经纪人也说，我们认为你应该拒绝，因为我们觉得可以拿到更好的条件。

So that even when I was offered the role, my agents were like, we think you should say no because we'd think there's a better deal we could make.

你希望这件事就此结束吗？

Are you happy for this to go away?

我当时想，是的，这样也好。

I was like, yeah, that's okay.

我不确定我是不是真的适合演这个角色。

I don't know if I'm really meant to do the role anyway.

所以，我会说不。

So yeah, I would say no.

我们先说不。

We'll say no first.

然后他们又回来了，说：天啊，现在真的非常想做这个角色。

And then they came back and was like, oh my God, really want to do this now.

你是不是觉得这太离谱了，你这个来自阿德莱德的澳大利亚女孩，住在荒野公园，追着人跑的野猫，和希芙·罗伊这个角色相差太远，所以即使角色给了你，你也没当真。

Did you just think it was so far fetched that you, this Australian Adelaide girl Yes.

你是不是觉得你和希芙·罗伊这个角色差距太大，以至于即使角色已经提供给你了，你也没认真考虑过？

From the wilderness park, feral cat chasing human being, were so far away from the Shiv Roy character that you didn't take it that seriously even when the role was offered to you.

自信在其中起着作用，如果你不相信自己有能力做某事，或者觉得自己不配拥有某物，你就会设置各种障碍来阻止自己实现目标。

Confidence plays a role in that, where if you don't think you have the confidence to do something or you don't think you are deserving of something, you will put things that stop you in the way through achieving that goal.

当你极度渴望某样东西时，这在第二季中确实体现出来了——当你如此渴望某物时，你会对它如此轻易地得到心存警惕。

When you want something so much, this certainly comes down in season two, think, for sure, that when you do want something so much, you are wary of it being given to you in a very seemingly otherwise easy way.

对我来说，我想演电视剧，但我只愿意在HBO演那种长期剧集，因为我相信他们的品质，信任他们的用心，也相信这种挑战能让我作为艺术家和演员感到满足。

So for me, I was like, I'd love to do TV, but I'd only like to do TV on HBO in that long running way because I could trust their quality and I can trust their interest and the challenge and keep me satisfied as an artist and as an actor.

我知道这就是顶峰。

I know that's the top.

所以我一直渴望这个。

So I'd wanted that.

被提供这个角色时，我觉得这显然不会发生，因为我还没做过任何配得上它的事情。

Being offered that is like, well, obviously that's not going to happen because I haven't done anything you deserve it.

宇宙就这样把我想得到的东西给了我，爸爸。

Just the universe giving me what I want, dad.

她不相信这一点。

Doesn't trust that.

这是一种迷思。

That's a myth.

生活模仿艺术，艺术又模仿生活，因为希夫这个角色融合了力量与脆弱、自信与机智。

Life imitates art, imitates life because character of Shiv is a mix of strength and vulnerability, confidence and wit.

我们第一次见到她时，她是个准局外人。

When we first meet her, she's a quasi outsider.

她作为一名政治顾问，为一位类似伯尼·布罗类型的民粹主义参议员吉尔达维斯工作，这是对父亲右翼宣传帝国的反抗。

Her profession as a political consultant to a kind of Bernie bro populist, god bless you, senator Gildavis, is an act of rebellion against her father's right wing propaganda peddling empire.

你曾说过，一开始你对希夫·罗伊有点敬畏。

You've said, at first, you're a bit intimidated by Shiv Roy.

为什么会这样？

Why was that?

归根结底还是自信的问题，因为她似乎很清楚自己是谁，并且对此毫不羞愧或尴尬。

Again, it comes back to confidence because she seems to know who she is and is not ashamed or embarrassed by that fact.

但我觉得，更重要的是，别人都很清楚她是谁。

But I think that very much in the sense, it's very much that everybody else knows who she is.

别人都知道她的姓氏，也知道这个姓氏背后伴随的种种特权。

Everybody else knows her last name and knows what sort of trappings come with that.

她自己或许并不清楚在这些光环下真正的自己是谁，但她能轻易扮演好罗伊家的女儿这个角色。

She may not know who she is in amongst that, but can very easily play the role of Roy.

而且，希芙有一种非常自然的、有意识的角色切换能力：肯德尔是这样，罗曼是那个小丑，康纳是沙漠里有点嬉皮士的人，而希芙能扮演的角色，让别人觉得：她是女儿，但也是最聪明的那个。

And also there's a very easy conscious flipping into a character for Shiv that is, Kendall is this particular way, Roman is sort of the clown, Connor is the hippie in the desert somewhat, then the role that Shiv can play, then other people go like, Well, she's the daughter, but she's the smartest.

于是她完全可以闭口不言，让别人以为那就是真相，而事实可能完全不是这样。

Then she can just keep her mouth shut and have other people think that that's the truth, where it may not be the case at all.

这是一种非常狡猾、机敏的策略：少说话，让别人自己去想象他们想相信的东西。

It's very slippery wily cunning that is, say less and have other people think what they want to.

我的人生中也发生过类似的事，人们以为我住在洛杉矶，以为我正在那里追求演员梦想。

And I mean, look, I did that in my own life where people thought that I lived in LA and so I was trying to make it as an actor in LA.

我从未住在洛杉矶，但也没人说我没有。

I never lived in LA, but it didn't say that I didn't.

除非你主动纠正他们，否则人们总会自行做出判断并形成对你的看法，保持沉默往往蕴含着巨大的力量。

People are gonna make their own decisions about and have their own opinions about you unless you correct them, then there's a lot of power in keeping silent.

沉默是一种了不起的超能力，表面上看，希夫非常聪明。

Ellipsis is an incredible superpower, and on the surface, Shiv is smart.

她似乎很清楚自己该怎么做，而且你提到扮演希夫让你开始思考自己的身份，这一点我很欣赏。

She does seem to know what to do, And I love what you've said about how playing Shiv has made you think about your own identity.

你曾说，要允许自己有权利出现在某个地方。

You said to just be allowed to feel like you have a right to be somewhere.

这种力量，是你在前几集中扮演她时所获得的。

That's the power that you took from playing her in the first couple of episodes.

第一季的前五集，我一直觉得自己是个骗子，骗子，骗子。

So the first five episodes of season one, I was like, fraud, fraud, fraud.

他们很快就会发现的。

They're gonna find out soon.

真的到了一个地步，我觉得现在重拍和换演员太贵了。

Really got to a point where I like, well, it's too expensive now to reshoot and recast.

所以要么咬牙忍着，莎拉，好好干你的活，要么就瘫着自怜，办个盛大的同情派对。

So either suck it up, Sarah, and do your freaking job or sit around and mope and have this great big pity party.

我们97%的听众都会点头表示认同。

97% of our listeners will be nodding along.

每个人都曾有过这种感觉。

They everyone has felt that way

是的。

Yeah.

在他们的一生中。

In their lifetime.

谁不喜欢一场精彩的自怜派对呢？

Oh, who doesn't love a good pity party?

但你面临的另一个明显挑战是口音，美国口音。

But another obvious challenge that you had, the accent, an American accent.

你曾承认自己对即兴发挥感到自我怀疑，而即兴发挥正是美国亿万富翁的常用方式。

You've admitted you had self doubt about improvising, which is the succession way in American billionaires.

我必须说，我非常理解。

And I've got to say, I empathize.

我在这个国家已经待了大约一百万年了。

I've been in this country for about a million years.

我现在是美国人了，但我的美国口音依然糟糕透顶。

I'm now American, but my American accent remains bloody awful.

解锁你那种出色的美国口音的秘诀是什么？

What is the secret to unlocking an incredible American accent which you have?

我请了一位很棒的语音教练，杰罗姆·巴特勒，他给了我两三个关键点，让我特别注意舌头中部的口腔动作。

I worked with an amazing voice coach, Jerome Butler, who gave me two or three things that for me needed to work with how my mouth movement was, particularly in the middle of my tongue.

对我来说，我以前说话时太依赖卷舌音，而没有用舌头中部来发音。

For me, the way that I say things, leaning too much on the R and not using the middle of my tongue to do it.

对我来说，这就像找到了一个关键，可以借此解锁口音。

That for me was like, Okay, I can lean on that as a little key to unlock the accent.

本质上就是别阻碍自己。

Was basically getting out of the way of myself.

所以我们做的很多即兴表演，我发现保持场景外的口音更容易。

So a lot of the improvisation stuff that we would do, found it easier to remain in an accent off scene.

所以一旦表演结束，我会稍微保留口音，同时也保留我的澳大利亚口音。

So once the thing was done, remain somewhat in the accent, but also my Australian accent.

于是形成了一种奇怪的混合口音，我既不刻意模仿美国口音，也不刻意保持澳大利亚口音。

So doing a strange hybrid where I wasn't trying to be American, but also not trying to be Australian.

因此，保持在中间位置，让我从原本非常明显的澳大利亚口音过渡到：这就是我，这就是莎拉，现在我也一样。

So sitting right in the middle helped go from otherwise really far Australian and going, this is me, this is Sarah, and now I do the same.

然后再说我的美国口音，不过我现在不会说，因为我会说砸了。

And then do my American accent, which I won't do now right now because I would fail.

这对我来说真的很新奇，希夫，我试图弥合这两种口音之间的差距，让中间的区域变得更模糊，我就处在那个区域。

And this is really new Shiv, trying to reach the gap between those two and make the area a lot more grey that I sat in.

天啊，我对你感到无比钦佩

God, I'm in awe of

你，莎拉。

you, Sarah.

我真的非常钦佩。

I really am.

基兰·麦肯锡在片场毫无保留地即兴发挥，像个疯子一样，而你却专注于舌头的发音位置。

There's Kieran Culkin just unfiltered, improvising like a madman on set, and you're focusing on where your tongue's coming out for your arse.

希芙在两季的过程中经历了非凡的蜕变。

And Shiv has been through an incredible evolution over the course of the two seasons.

我们稍后会深入探讨这一点。

We'll dive into that in a moment.

但首先，我必须问你，这种转变在服装部门是如何体现的，这一点已经被大量分析了。

But first, I've got to ask you how that transformation has been lived out by the wardrobe department, which has been analyzed a ton.

希芙从第一季柔和女性化的造型——长长的波浪状波提切利风格长发，转变为第二季的灰色西装高领衫和‘我是老板’式打理整齐的波波头。

Shiv went from the soft feminine look, long wavy Botticelli hair of season one to seasons two armor of gray pantsuit turtlenecks, and I am the boss blown out Bob.

玛德琳·阿吉拉尔在《纽约杂志》上写道，我非常喜欢这段话。

Madeleine Aguilar wrote in New York Magazine, and I love this.

她说，希夫的裤子比洛根·罗伊的任何一个孩子都更周到、更有能力、性心理更健康。

She said, Shiv's pants are more thoughtful, capable, and sexually well adjusted than any of Logan Roy's children.

这些裤子足以独自策划一次敌意收购，或让你信服媒体垄断的合理性。

These are pants that could single handedly orchestrate a hostile company takeover or convince you of the merits of a media monopoly.

莎拉，你在服装选择上有多少参与度？

How much of a hand do you have in your wardrobe choices, Sarah?

这真是段绝妙的引述。

That is an amazing quote.

我特别喜欢，我作为角色所穿的服装，它的裤子竟然比剧中任何一位实际角色都更有资格继承家族企业。

I love that a costume that I get to wear as a character, their pants are sort of a greater candidate for the family takeover than any of the actual characters in the show.

我确实参与了相关讨论。

I had a hand in terms of it being a conversation for sure.

我们第二季的造型确实基于一种强大的女性轮廓，既不否认女性特质，又兼具实用性。

We certainly based the second season look on strong female silhouette that didn't deny a femininity, but there's a practicality in that.

对我来说，考虑到自己的体型，我有臀部和翘臀，过去我可能会回避这些特征，感到尴尬或不够自信，但第二季的希夫让我学会了真正接纳真实的自己。

I think for me, in terms of my own shape, I have hips and I have a butt and I have those kinds of things in the past, maybe I would have shied away from and been sort of embarrassed about or less confident about, and instead it's about Shiv in the second season and really embracing who she is.

因此，这部分也意味着我在外形上接纳了真实的自己。

So part of that is in a figure embracing who I am in that sense.

同时，我借鉴了凯瑟琳·赫本式的剪裁风格，这种风格与希夫的核心个性相契合——她并不张扬粗俗，而是有一种内在的气质。

And leaning into the Katharine Hepburn tailoring and something about Shiv that is not brash and brashy, but is in her core personality, there's something that is there.

但在她的外在呈现上，她对色调、色彩和剪裁的运用更加克制、更有意识。

But in the way that she presents, there's a lot more control and a lot more consciousness about tone and colors that she uses and the tailoring.

她在选择时尚单品时非常聪明。

She'd be very smart about how she picks her fashion.

她会有一个造型师，就像比利·诺斯那样会有造型师。

She'd have a stylist, like a billy nose would have a stylist.

会有人专门替她去购物，清楚她想要什么，然后把衣服带回家。

They'd have someone going out and shopping for them, knowing what they want and bringing it home.

说实话，只要看起来与众不同，不随大流，她可能根本不在乎自己穿什么。

I think to be honest, she probably doesn't really care what she wears as long as she looks apart, as long as she doesn't fit in.

对我来说，如果参加活动时发现自己是穿得最夸张的那个，我会非常反感。

For me personally, I would hate to arrive at an event and be the most overdressed there.

我宁愿到了现场说：‘哦，我没收到通知。’

I'd much rather rock up and be like, Oh, I didn't get the memo.

不好意思，我穿着旧靴子就来了。

Sorry, I'm wearing my old boots.

我更喜欢这样随意地出现，而不是踩着高跟鞋大摇大摆地进来。

I'm much more comfortable flipping in like that rather than tossing in on heels.

希芙身上也有这种特质，她可能会穿着青蛙鞋或乐福鞋出现，一副歉意的样子：‘哎呀，真抱歉，我没收到通知说这次活动要更奢华一点。’

There's an element of that to Shiv as well that would come in with frogs or with loafers or something that is like, oh, I'm so sorry I didn't get the memo that this was more glamorous.

但你知道这套衣服花了多少钱吗？

But did you know this outfit cost whatever it was?

你知道的，大概一万美元，或者什么离谱的价钱。

You know, like $10,000 or something obscene.

当你是个罗伊家的人时，你就可以这么做。

When you're a Roy, you can do that.

希芙是个老板，但她是个有创伤的老板。

And Shiv is a boss, but she's a damaged boss.

第一季中，我们发现她并没有白吃白喝，这让她与众不同。

Season one, we find her not freeloading, and this makes her unique.

她最初在家族之外从事政治工作，当一个拥有如此财富的人仍然努力工作时，总是令人着迷。

She initially works outside the family in politics, and it's always fascinating when someone who has all that wealth still tries to work.

这是否正是希芙的核心矛盾：她想逃离，却在完全实现自我之前被重新拉了回去？因为血缘、家庭、野心和权力最终对她来说太过上瘾？

And is that Shiv central tension that she wants out but gets sucked back in crucially before she fully self actualizes and blood, family, ambition, power is too addictive for her ultimately?

这种在内部与外部之间的摇摆，是否定义了她？

Is that the toggling between the inside and the outside that defines her?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

我觉得希芙身上有一些非常像她父亲的东西，其中之一就是情绪的不稳定性。

I think there's something in Shiv that is very similar to her father, and part of that is the volatility.

因为洛根·罗伊是掌控者，是族长，处于顶端，但我觉得他之所以能走到这一步，部分原因在于他的情绪波动对他有利，再加上他是男性，身处媒体这个快节奏、不断变化的世界，时而坚持、时而转变，你无法指望他可靠，却能指望他精明。

Because Logan Roy is the controller and he's the patriarch and he's at the top, but I think he got there in some ways because of the volatility that was beneficial to him, and being male and being in that world of media, fast paced, chopping and changing and sticking to something and then changing and not ever being necessarily somebody you could rely on, but you could rely on to be cunning.

我认为希夫就是这种人。

I think Shiv is somebody who is quite like that.

因此，他们之间会产生激烈冲突，彼此都想让对方更可靠、更稳定，但某种程度上，他们正是彼此的镜子。

And so that's where they get into their loggerheads and they get to lock horns with that, where they want the other to be more reliable, more stable, but they are each other's mirror in a sense.

我认为对希夫来说，她很想加入家族企业，但只会以自己的方式加入。

And I think for Shiv, she would love to be in the family business, but will only be in the family business on her own terms.

而洛根也希望她加入家族企业，但只接受他设定的条件。

And Logan would love her to be in the family business, but only on his terms.

最终，这必将引发直接冲突。

And in the end, it's going to be in direct conflict.

在他的播客《追逐生命》中

On his podcast, Chasing Life

我是桑贾伊·古普塔医生。

I'm doctor Sanjay Gupta.

CNN首席医疗记者为您揭示地球上最快乐、最健康人群的秘密，助您活出最佳人生。

CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life.

有些人天生就比别人更快乐吗？

Are some people just born happier than others?

他们可能做了些什么，是我们其他人没有做的？

And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't?

在Apple、Spotify、iHeart播客、Amazon Music或您收听播客的任何平台关注《与桑贾伊·古普塔医生追逐生命》。

Follow chasing life with doctor Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, iHeart podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

您能否让罗伊家族的每个人听起来都像各自独立的易爆化学物质，一旦混合就会产生爆炸？

Could you make them all sound, the Roy family, just like volatile chemical compounds in their own right, which when mixed together is just explosive?

因为这个家庭的动态是节目的核心，而家庭动态本质上就是冲突动态。

Because that family dynamic is the core of the show, And the family dynamic is a conflict dynamic.

第一季中，希夫起初是超然的，一个旁观者，对周围发生的一切带着冷峻的评论。

Season one, Shiv is detached at the outset, an observer, a wry observer, almost a sports commentator on all that surrounds her.

但到了第二季，她已被卷入罗伊家族风暴的中心。

But season two, she's been sucked back into the eye of the Roy storm.

我们看到，尽管谢夫外表坚强、言辞犀利，但她的内心早已支离破碎。

And we see for all of her tough exterior and sharp tongue that Shiv is broken inside.

谢夫·罗伊内心有着可怕的恶魔。

There are incredible Shiv Roy demons.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，你不可能在这样的家庭中长大而不留下创伤。

I think you can't really grow up in a family like that without coming out.

会背负极其复杂的心理负担和心魔，以各种方式纠缠你。

An enormous amount of complexity and demons that will haunt you in different ways.

我认为，一个由白手起家的亿万富翁建立的家庭，是所有孩子必须努力达到的核心标杆。

And I think a family that is built from a self made billionaire, that's the central foundational pole that all the rest of the children have to live up to.

他们必须展现出属于自己的独立成就，我认为这就是谢夫选择从政的原因——她想在家族生意之外，以自己的方式实现价值。

They have to have their own self made quality about them, and I think that's why Shiv went to try and do that in politics, do it on her own terms outside of the family business.

在这样的家庭中成长，不可能毫发无损地走出来。

There's no way of going through that family and growing up in that family and coming out unscathed.

当我们见到卡罗琳夫人，见到哈利·沃尔特作为我们的母亲时，我们就想，当然了。

When we met Lady Carolyn, when we met Harry Walter as our mother, that was just like, Oh, of course.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

当然了。

Of course.

这正是我们一直以来缺失的那块拼图。

That is a piece of the puzzle that we've been missing all this time.

这完全说得通。

That just makes sense.

当然，她就是母亲。

Of course, of course she's the mother.

当然，我们所有人都有着尖刻的言辞和出众的机智，但同时也有一种不真实感，因为这是一部被写出来的剧，角色们常常极其幽默。

Of course we all have this acerbic tongue and this great wit, but there's also the level of unreality and that it is a show that is written and they are oftentimes exceedingly funny.

现实生活中，真的会有人总是那么幽默、聪明、机智吗？

Is that real in real life that people are that funny and that smart and that witty all the time?

但这种特质被放大了。

But there's a heightened quality to that.

但在这里，我认为当有像布莱恩·考克斯和哈丽特·沃尔特这样的父母出演时，效果非常好，因为你会想，确实如此。

But in this, I do actually think it works when you get two parents like Brian Cox and Harriet Walter and the characters that they're in play because you go, Yeah, actually.

如果这个家庭的相处方式就是互相挖苦、攻击、充满机智，那么他们彼此刻薄也就说得通了。

And if that's the way that that family relates to each other, that they deal in barbs and shibs and assault and witticism, then yeah, that makes sense that they're assholes to each other.

然后，这便成了一场持续不断的竞争。

And then it is a competition constantly.

当你和你的母亲莎拉拍摄这些场景时，作为一个人，它们对你来说是令人伤感的，还是只是另一个普通的场景？

When you shoot those scenes with your mother, Sarah, were they melancholy for you as a human being or were they just another scene?

因为正如你所说，他们确实是那个缺失的拼图。

Because they really, as you say, they were the missing piece.

观看他们时，感觉像是肺里的空气被抽空了。

Watching them, it felt like the air was sucked out of your lungs.

对你来说，这只是一个平常的工作日，还是其中蕴含着沉重的情感？

Was it just another day at the office for you, or was there a heaviness involved?

我的意思是，在这个办公室的每一天都不只是普通的一天。

I mean, feel like every day at this office is not just another day at the office.

这个办公室真的很有趣，我从不觉得无聊；他说，但和哈丽特演的那些场景，让我感触最深的，是和洛根之间那种敞开的脆弱时刻，或许是因为我们更常一起探讨主题，频率更高。

It's a really fun office to be at, and I never felt pedestrian, and then he says, But the scenes with Harriet, I think the ones that have affected me more have been the ones of open vulnerability with Logan, perhaps due to the nature of doing more theme together regularly, more frequently.

但和哈丽特的那些场景，不像两只蜗牛不知如何互动，而更像是两块石头彼此凝视，希望理解对方内心的悲伤与脆弱，却几乎做出决定：这永远不会奏效，这永远不会发生。

But the scenes with Harriet, it's less two snails not quite knowing how to interact with each other and two sort of stones just looking at each other, wishing they could understand that there's a sadness there and maybe there's a vulnerability, but there's almost like a decision made of this will never work and this will never happen.

因此，悲伤源于此，而非渴望创造更多；而爆发与冲突则出现在她与父亲的场景中。

So that's where the sadness comes from, not a yearning or desire to create something more where the explosiveness and conflict comes in the scenes with her father.

你被问过最喜欢哪些场景，你说你特别喜欢四个罗伊兄弟姐妹聚在一起的时刻，比如在新墨西哥州的家庭治疗场景，那些孩子们不可避免地彼此撕裂、彻底摧毁对方的场景。

You've been asked what your favorite scenes are, and you talk about how much you love it when all four Roy siblings are placed together, like the family therapy scenes in New Mexico, scenes where the kids inevitably tear each other to shreds, they eviscerate each other.

由于预算限制，电视剧通常一场戏最多只拍两到三个角色。

And for budget reasons, TV's normally shot with two or three characters max in a scene.

《继承之战》却热衷于群像戏，动用多台摄像机环绕拍摄，捕捉大量镜头，这意味着作为演员，即使没有台词，你也必须时刻在线。

Succession revels in the ensembles with a slew of cameras charging round, capturing a ton of coverage, which means as an actor, you gotta be on even if you have no lines.

这感觉更像在拍话剧，而不是电视剧吗？

Does that feel like making theatre more than television?

是的，当然。

Yeah, absolutely.

我从小就在演话剧，所以这对我来说更像家一样。

I grew up doing theatre and so that feels more like a home ground to me.

我非常喜欢。

And I love it.

它让你感觉必须时刻保持奥运选手般的水准。

It makes you feel like you have to be Olympic level all the time.

所以你必须不断思考、创造、想象，并对每件事都有自己的见解。

And so you have to be thinking and you have to be creating and imagining and having an opinion on everything.

我觉得有些日子我虽然很不开心，但还是当了个群演。

I think there are days where I've been upset and been an extra, essentially.

就像个高薪群演，坐在背景里什么也不做。

Was like high paid extra sitting in the background not doing anything.

但总有理由让他们把镜头扫过来、调整焦距，所以我就坐在那儿，享受这个过程。

But there's all reason that they could swing the camera and rack focus and so sit there and enjoy doing it.

我觉得这非常滋养人心，因为你表演是因为你在那里完成一项工作，你当时就在思考、即兴创作，并且这种付出得到了尊重。

I find it so nourishing, really, because you're acting because you're there to do a job and you're thinking about it in the moment and creating in the moment and it's being respected.

这就是不同的地方。

That's the part that's different.

我相信在很多其他剧集中，如果你的贡献不被尊重，最终你会感到疲惫。

I'm sure you can do that on many other shows that if your contribution isn't being respected, then eventually you'll tire of it.

但在这里，我发现我们的贡献，无论多么微小，始终都受到尊重。

Whereas in this, I find that our contribution, no matter how small, is always being respected.

所以这感觉就像完成了一项任务。

And so it feels like a check off, really.

这感觉就像你在《万尼亚舅舅》中演一场戏，也许他整场都在舞台上，却一句话没说，但所有人都看着你，确保他们理解这场戏真正发生的事情。

It feels like you're doing a scene in Uncle Vanya where perhaps he's now on the stage for the entire act and you didn't say anything, but everybody's looking to you to make sure that they understand what's really going on in the scene.

你提到当这四个兄弟姐妹聚在一起时，这部剧对你来说才最清晰，你真正能理解他们彼此之间的关系，因为那些经历在那些时刻才显得合乎情理。

You've said that when the four siblings are together, it's when the show makes most sense to you that you really get to understand who they are with each other because what they've been through makes sense in those moments.

我喜欢读到这一点，因为和另外三位演员在一起时，对你来说感觉如此真实。

And I love reading that, that it feels so real for you to be with the three other actors.

你感觉罗伊的超越性，即使是在虚构中，血浓于水。

You feel like Roy transcendence, that blood is thicker than water even when it's fictional.

是的， definitely。

Yeah, definitely.

他们所有人如何契合在一起，有一种内在的合理性。

And there's something that makes sense about how they all fit together.

他们各自学会了在这样残酷的家庭中生存所需的不同特质。

There's the different elements that they've learned to bring out in themselves in order to survive in this cutthroat family.

希夫学会了更像个观察者，更沉默一些。

Shiv has learnt to be a little more of an observer, be a little more silent.

这就是她学会的生存方式；而基兰和罗曼，我的意思是，基兰天生的才华就是这种毫无保留的天才，他作为罗曼，能够依靠这一点在家庭中生存下来。

That's what she's learnt to survive in the family, whereas Kieran with Roman, I mean, Kieran's natural talent is just this unfiltered genius that he's able to, as Roman, lean on that as the thing that's been able to make him survive as a family.

我们每个人都有这些贡献性的特质，当它们汇聚在一起时，真的会让人感觉完整。

Each of us have these contributing elements that when they come together, really do feel like the whole.

让我们直接深入探讨这些家庭动态。

Let's dive into those family dynamics straight off the top.

我们能澄清一件事吗？

Can we clear up one thing?

希夫无疑是她父亲四个继承人中最合格的，对吧？

Shiv is by far the most qualified of her father's four heirs, right?

你问我，那我当然会说 yes。

You're asking me, so obviously I'm going to say yes.

我会说 yes，但肯德尔说她以前没管理过公司，这话也很对。

I would say yes, but also Kendall's very correct when he says she's not run a company before.

她将接任这个职位。

She would be stepping in.

这涉及大量的任人唯亲，人们会知道她很优秀，但她应该事先接受大量培训。

It's a huge amount of nepotism and people would know that she would be good, but she should do a lot of training beforehand.

她不可能毫无管理公司经验就直接接手一家大型公司的首席执行官职位。

It's not like she can just step into the CEO ship of a massive company with no prior experience to running a company.

但如果她能做好准备，我认为她会非常胜任。

But I think she would be very good at it if she could get it done.

那么洛根相信这一点吗？

So does Logan believe that?

还是说他之所以对希夫感兴趣，只是因为她是在家族之外努力打拼、最难捉摸的那个孩子，像一条抓不住的鱼？

Or is he only interested in Shiv because she's the one kid playing hard to get working away from the family, the uncatch able fish.

他想用一个沉默的誓言来引诱她上钩，承诺让她成为继承人，而这个誓言至关重要的是，她永远不能、也不该告诉任何人。

And he wants to bait her onto his hook with a silent vow to make her his heir, a vow crucially that she can never or she should never tell anyone about.

说实话，我认为两者可能都是真的。

I think both are probably true, to be honest.

我认为他可能确实觉得她在性格上是最合适的候选人，但与此同时，这也隐含着一种威胁——她可能会比他更胜任这份工作。

I think he probably does think that she's the most appropriate candidate in personality wise, but also perhaps in doing that, there's the inherent threat that she could be better than him at the job.

而这同样太过危险。

And that's too dangerous as well.

在生活中，我们常常做事情时，对自己真正的动机和真正想要什么缺乏诚实的认识。

In life, we do things without being honest with ourselves about what our true purpose is and our true desire of what we want out of this, our objective.

在这一点上，事情并不一定是非黑即白的，比如‘我做这件事是因为我想得到那个’。

Things are not necessarily binary in that sense of like, I do this because I want that.

我这么做是因为我觉得我想要那个，但我也想要这个、那个和那个。

I do this because I think I want that, but I also want this as well and that and that.

而这正是那个的结果。

And this comes as a result of that.

我们始终在灵活调整和变化，而希芙与博根之间的不稳定性再次显现。

We're constantly flexible and changing and there's the volatility again of Shiv and the Blogan.

你说一件事，可能在那一刻意味着那个，但不会永远都意味着那个。

You say one thing and it might mean that for that moment, but it won't mean that forever.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，希芙显然也非常渴望它。

I mean, Shiv clearly wants it badly too.

即使不是那个职位，至少也是洛根的认可。

If not the job, then Logan's approval.

她无视所有警示信号：保密性、没有时间表、没有公告。

She ignores all the red flags, the secrecy, the lack of a timeline, an announcement.

是的。

Yeah.

随便吧。

Whatever.

她说自己会随波逐流，一边努力表现出平静，一边抵达威斯特罗伊科的高管办公室，却发现根本没地方可坐。

I'll float, she says, trying to project a calm she doesn't feel as she arrives at Waystar Royco's executive offices and realize there's really no place to sit.

但你也可以认为，这种‘随波逐流’指的是她自己——因为接受了这份工作，她已经失去了自我，曾经拥有的任何道德准则都已彻底粉碎。

But you could argue the floating refers to herself because by accepting the offer, she's lost her sense of self and any moral compass she had is now smashed.

我甚至不会说道德指南针，而是她作为独立个体的身份认同，她一直保持着与家族分离的自我身份。

I wouldn't even say a moral compass, but a Heather as to who she is as an identity, where she's separate from the family and she's always maintained that as an identity as separate.

我不知道希夫的朋友是谁。

I don't know who Shiv's friends are.

我想她 probably 有朋友，因为大多数人确实有朋友，但她们是谁呢？

I think she probably does have them because most people have friends, but who are they?

她们在哪里？

Where are they?

她对家庭有着一种持续的吸引力，既上瘾又厌恶，而被卷入到更深层次地参与家族生意的角色中，无疑具有极大的吸引力。

And there's this constant magnetism back towards the family she both is addicted to and reviled, and then been thrown into that position of being a part of the family in a more meaningful way in terms of the business is undeniably attractive.

但一旦事情没有按照她希望的方向发展，要从这种状态中抽身并维持一个让她自豪的自我身份就变得极其困难。

But as soon as it's not going in the way that she wants, it's very difficult to unpick herself from that and maintain an identity that she's proud of.

因为她完全受制于父亲，而这正是她最想逃离的东西。

Because she's at the whim of her father and that's the thing that she wanted to get away from the most.

是的。

Yeah.

顺便说一句，我能说一下吗？《Shiv的朋友》绝对是个绝佳的衍生剧，必须尽快把它拍出来。

And by the way, can I just say Shiv's Friends is an incredible spin off, which somebody has to make happen sooner rather than later?

忍受不了她。

Detolerate her.

对。

Yeah.

忍受不了。

Detolerate.

在那之前，是的。

Before yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

因为还没等我们反应过来，希夫就在韦斯特罗伊科的游轮部门，以极具威胁的方式劝说一位性骚扰和虐待的受害者不要在国会作证，控诉她的遭遇——这一行为她自己似乎也很厌恶，但并非因为违背了她的价值观，而是因为这项任务被她视为‘软技能、女性职责的脏活累活’。

Because before we know it, Shiv is menacingly persuading a victim of sexual harassment and abuse in Waystar Royco's cruises division not to testify before congress about her suffering, an act she seems to hate, not because she's going against her values, but because the task at hand is, quote, soft skills, lady duty shit work.

你曾对记者说，希夫的崛起引发了你作为演员内心的恐惧，你承认这让你吓得要死，因为你曾说：‘如果我演砸了……’

You told the journalist that Shiv's ascendancy triggered internal fears for you as an actor, admitting that it intimidated the hell out of you because if I bomb, you said.

编剧们可能会说：‘我们得改剧情。’

The script writers might say, we're gonna change the story.

把希夫的戏份减一减吧，因为你演得太差了，莎拉。

Dial Shiv back because you suck, Sarah.

这让我觉得太不可思议了。

Amazing to me.

你的表演如此令人胆寒、非凡，但内心深处，你依然感受到了那些恐惧。

Your performance is so terrifyingly remarkable, but inside, you still felt those fears.