知名餐饮主理人分享打造成功文化的秘诀

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更多信息请访问hbr.org/innovationsummit。

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我是艾莉森·比尔德。

I'm Alison Beard.

我是阿迪·伊格纳修斯，这里是HBR思想汇。

I'm Adi Ignatius, and this is the HBR Ideacast.

阿迪，当企业规模还小的时候，打造优秀的企业文化感觉相对简单。

Adi, when a business is small, building a great corporate culture can feel relatively straightforward.

你知道，领导者与员工和客户都很亲近。

You know, leaders are close to their employees and customers.

他们能看到一线的情况，一旦感觉不对劲就能及时介入。

They can see what's happening on the front lines and intervene when something feels off.

但是当组织变得越来越大时，会发生什么呢？

But what happens when the organization gets much, much bigger?

这是一个经典的商业难题，我觉得很多公司即使明白风险，也还是会搞砸。

This is a classic business dilemma, and I think a lot of companies get it wrong even though they understand the risk.

对吧？

Right?

他们为了效率和利润做出取舍。

They make trade offs for efficiency and profitability.

他们增加了管理层级。

They add layers of management.

他们忘记了最初让企业与众不同的东西。

They forget about what made the business special in the first place.

没错。

Exactly.

所以今天请到的是丹尼·梅耶，他是一位餐饮企业家，创立并扩展了Shake Shack，还经营着一个备受赞誉的高档餐饮集团，同时也是新书《还能有什么问题？》的作者。

So joining me today is Danny Meyer, the restaurateur who founded and scaled Shake Shack as well as an acclaimed fine dining group and the author of a new book called What Could Possibly Go Right?

《打造持久文化的关键旅程》。

The Essential Journey to Scale an Enduring Culture.

在一个要求极高的行业里，我们说的是从米其林星级的曼哈顿餐厅到全球连锁汉堡店。

In an extremely demanding industry, we're talking about Michelin starred Manhattan restaurants to a global burger chain.

他几十年来一直很成功，但他也坦诚地谈到了自己一路走来犯过并纠正过的错误。

He stayed successful for decades, but he's also really candid about the mistakes that he's made and corrected along the way.

我和他聊了聊打造强大组织文化的基石，他用来确保多元化团队保持一致的那些框架，

I talked with him about the building blocks of a strong organizational culture, the frameworks he uses to ensure that diverse...

以及领导者什么时候该介入，什么时候该退后。

Dispersed teams stay on the same page, and when a leader should step in versus step back.

下面就是我们的对话。

Here's our conversation.

那么，当你刚开始开第一家餐厅联合广场咖啡馆时，你是怎么明确你想要创造的文化，并让团队成功执行的呢？

So when you first started out with your first restaurant, Union Square Cafe, how did you articulate the culture that you wanted to create and get the team to successfully execute on it?

我没有。

I didn't.

我……

I'd...

我从来没跟任何人说过什么，因为我对开餐厅、创业一窍不通。

I never articulated anything to anybody because I didn't know the first thing about opening a restaurant, starting a business.

我只是凭直觉做事，做那些自然而然的事情。

I just did what came naturally to me and what was intuitive.

我觉得随着时间的推移，我开始用语言来表达，就像我们教孩子那样，而不是仅仅试图以身作则。

I think over time, I started to use my words as we used to teach our kids instead of just, you know, trying to embody the behaviors I wanted to see.

我真的很想让人们知道他们是什么样的人，那时候事情才开始变得好起来，因为让团队成员去猜测什么才是真正重要的，这很不公平。

I I really was trying to let people know what they were, and that's when things started to get pretty good because it's not fair to ask your team members to be guessers as to what really matters.

你提到了“开明待客”这个理念。

You talk about this idea of enlightened hospitality.

请解释一下你的意思。

Explain what you mean by that.

其实，“开明待客”这个想法是我开第二家餐厅时想到的，那家是Gramercy Tavern，距离我开Union Square Cafe差不多十年了。当时我觉得那里感觉不对劲，但想不明白为什么。

So the idea of enlightened hospitality, in fact, occurred to me when I opened my second restaurant, which was Gramercy Tavern, almost ten years after opening Union Square Cafe, it didn't feel right to me in there, and I couldn't figure out why.

这是我职业生涯中第一次，不能百分之百地待在一家餐厅的前门。

For the first time in my career, I was not a 100% of the time at the front door in one restaurant.

所以我就在两家店之间来回跑。这么多年下来，如果我对文化有什么领悟的话，那就是文化是当你不在场时发生的事情。

So I was going back and forth, and if I've learned one thing about culture all these years later, culture is what happens when you're not in the room.

而有一半的时间，我都不在场，而且我也没有把文化定义清楚。

And half the time, I was not in the room, and I had not done a good job of defining it.

有一天，一位联合广场咖啡馆的常客来格拉梅西酒馆用餐，吃完后她气冲冲地来找我。

There was one awful day a Union Square Cafe regular dined at Gramercy Tavern, and she came up to me furious after her meal.

她说，你知道吗，我刚才经历的这种事情，在联合广场咖啡馆是绝对不会发生的。

And she said, you know, what what I just experienced never would have happened at Union Square Cafe.

她说的其实是我们在待客方面犯了一个非常严重的错误。

And she was really talking about a horrible lapse in hospitality.

她非常详细地描述了我们的所作所为。

You know, she went into great detail about what we had done.

我对自己感到非常懊恼，因为我意识到，我从来没有真正向格拉梅西酒馆的团队明确过我们的文化。

And I was so upset with myself because I realized I had never really clarified our culture to our team at Gramercy Tavern.

第二天我就召开了全体员工大会，也就是在那时我提出了‘ enlightened hospitality’这个说法。

I hosted an all staff meeting the very next day, and that's when I coined the expression enlightened hospitality.

我说，各位，从这一刻起，我们做的就是 hospitality 的生意。

And I said, guys, from this moment on, we are in the business of hospitality.

对。

Yes.

我们会一直努力把食物做得更好。

We're gonna always try to make our food much better.

我们会一直努力让酒单上的酒更好。

We're gonna always try to have better wines on our wine list.

但当客人在用餐结束时买单，他们付钱买的并不是食物和酒。

But when someone pays their bill at the end of a meal here, what they're paying us for is not the food and wine.

你得假装那些东西都是免费的。

You gotta pretend all that stuff was free.

他们付钱买的是我们带给他们的感受，也就是 hospitality。

What they're paying us for is how we made them feel, hospitality.

对我来说，热情好客意味着什么呢。

Here's what hospitality means to me.

它意味着，接受你服务的那个人，真心相信你是站在他们那一边的。

It means that the person on the receiving end of your service truly believes that you were on their side.

而且，我还要再进一步说，各位。

And I'll take it a step further, guys.

我们的第一位顾客，就是我们自己。

Our first customer is us.

我创造了一个说法，叫做“开明待客的良性循环”。

And I coined the expression, the virtuous cycle of enlightened hospitality.

我还说，我确信，你们彼此对待的方式，会直接影响客人感受到的待遇。

And I said, I know for a fact that the way you treat each other is going to directly influence how our guests feel treated.

如果你们在关心彼此方面有所疏忽，客人是能感觉到的。

And if you have a lapse in how you care thoughtfully for one another, our guests will feel that.

所以，我告诉他们，开明待客，基本上就是把我们的五类利益相关者，形成一个良性循环：先是彼此，然后是客人，接着是我们经营所在的社区，再是我们的供应商，最后是我们的投资者。

And so enlightened hospitality, I told them, was basically taking all five of our stakeholders and creating a virtuous cycle where the input would be one another, followed by our guests, followed by the community in which we do business, followed by our suppliers, followed by our investors.

如果你在任何一环出了问题，整个体系就崩了。

And if you break this anywhere, you break the whole thing.

这一切都是源于前一天我们对待客人太差，我气得不行，才想出来的。

All of that came to me in a fit of anger over how poorly we had treated a guest the day before.

从那以后，我们开的每一家餐厅都遵循这个蓝图，大家不用再猜我到底看重什么了。

That has been the blueprint for every single restaurant we've ever opened since, and people don't have to guess anymore what matters to me.

那你如何把这个理念转化成你希望看到的具体价值观或行为呢？

So how do you translate that ethos into values or specific behaviors that you wanna see?

这个嘛，其实很多年来我在这方面做得并不好。

Well, that's another thing that I didn't do a very good job of for many, many years.

我一直是在实践中不断学习，而很多时候，实践就是跌倒再爬起来。

It was constant learning by doing, and a lot of the doing, was falling down and getting myself back up.

但最初的版本是，我告诉自己，我知道该做什么。

But the first iteration was I said, I know what I need to do.

我需要确立我们的家庭价值观是什么。

I need to establish what are our family values.

然后有个特别聪明的人说，好吧。

And somebody really smart said, okay.

丹尼，这主意不错。

That's a good idea, Danny.

你真的应该从团队那里集思广益，收集这些家庭价值观。

You should really crowdsource those family values from the team.

这样就不是自上而下的，每个人都会有点参与感。

So instead of being a top down thing, everybody will have some skin in the game.

然后我就这么做了，这大概是十五年前的事了。

And so I did that, and this was probably fifteen years ago or something.

我大概收到了60个回答，我们当时特别聪明，做了一个词云，印在咖啡杯上，然后发给了

I got probably 60 answers, and we were so smart we created a a word cloud, printed it on coffee mugs, and gave it

公司里的每一位领导，上面有60个词。

to every leader in the company with 60 words on it.

从热情、社区、精神、季节性，什么都有。

And it was everything from enthusiasm, community, spirit, seasonal.

然后另一位顾问来找我，说，你不能这么做。

And then another consultant came to me and they said, you can't do that.

你不能指望人们记住60个不同的价值观。

You can't expect people to remember 60 different values.

所以我们花了大概三天时间，关在房间里，把这60个价值观归纳成四个。

And so we spent, like, you know, three days locked up in a room bucketing those 60 values into four.

我们最终得出的四个家庭价值观，其实也适用于任何公司，分别是：卓越，就是把你做的事情做到最好，比昨天做得更好一点；热情好客，就是做事的方式让别人感觉更好。

And the four family values we came up with, which could be values for anybody's company, were excellence, doing the thing you do as well as you can do it, a little bit better than you did it yesterday, Hospitality, doing it in a way that made other people feel better.

创业精神，就是在别人发现问题之前发现问题，并提出新的解决方案。

Entrepreneurial spirit, identifying problems before others identify them and coming up with a fresh solution.

诚信，就是即使没人看着，即使可能对自己不利，也要有判断力去做正确的事。

And integrity, having the judgment to do the right thing even when no one else is looking and even when it may not be in your own self interest.

所以我们有了这四个家庭价值观，然后我们迎来了一个非常重要的时刻。

So we had these four family values, and then we had a really important moment.

我们请了一位外部演讲者，一个朋友。

And we had an outside speaker, a guy who's a friend.

他叫多夫·塞德曼。

His name is Dove Seidman.

他是豪研究所的创始人。

He's the founder of the Howe Institute.

对。

Yeah.

多夫来给我的高级领导们演讲，他说，各位，在下一代中成功的公司，不会是那些在竞争中表现更出色的公司。

And Dove came to speak to my senior leaders, and he said, guys, the companies that succeed in this next generation are not gonna be the ones that outperform their competition.

而是那些在行为上更胜一筹的公司。

They're gonna be the ones that outbehave their competition.

我以前从没想过这一点。

And I had never thought about that.

所以带着这个启发，我回到团队里，说，你们知道吗？

So with that, you know, nugget, I went back with my team, and we said, you know what?

我们真应该把家庭价值观给废掉。

We should really scrap family values.

相反，我们应该用期望行为来取代家庭价值观。

And instead we should replace family values with expected behaviors.

这是我们做过的最有力的事情之一，让我们的文化实现了质的飞跃，因为家庭价值观是个大问题。

And this was one of the most powerful things we've ever done in terms of taking a quantum leap forward for our culture was that family values is a big problem.

我们不是一家人。

We are not a family.

我们是一个企业。

We're a business.

我之前说我们是一家人，那是不真诚的。

And it was disingenuous of me to suggest that we were a family.

是的。

Yes.

如果你在餐厅工作过，你会知道有些东西让人感觉很好。

If you've ever worked in a restaurant, there are things that feel good.

你坐下来，和所有员工一起吃所谓的家庭餐。

You sit down and you have something called family meal with with everybody else who works on the staff.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你知道吗？

But you know what?

有时候在生意场上你得开除人。

Sometimes you gotta fire somebody in a business.

你不会开除家人。

You don't fire a family member.

你知道，你那个疯疯癫癫的叔叔还是会被邀请回来吃感恩节晚餐，但在生意场上你不能这么做。

You know, your crazy uncle still gets invited back to Thanksgiving dinner, but you cannot do that in a business.

所以第二个问题，除了说公司是家之外，就是很难让人对某个价值观负责。

And so second problem besides it was family is that it's really hard to hold someone accountable to a value.

然后第三个问题是，我们有的那四个家庭价值观，再说一次，就推动文化而言，可能适用于世界上任何一家公司。

And then third problem was is that the four family values we had, again, this in terms of advancing culture, could have been any company in the world.

谁会反对让你的企业更卓越、更热情好客、更有创业精神，并且体现诚信呢？

Who would argue with wanting your business to be more excellent, more hospitable, better entrepreneurial spirit, and exemplifying integrity.

所以我们做的就是，把我第一本书《Setting the Table》里那些真实故事中体现的期望行为都提炼了出来。

So what we did was we took all of the expected behaviors from stories that were actually in my first book, Setting the Table.

那些故事都是我们独有的，也就是从那时起，我们才真正开始全力推进这件事。

Stories that were uniquely ours, and that's when we really hit go on this whole thing.

那么，从 enlightened hospitality 和家庭价值观中提炼出来的期望行为，能举个例子吗？

So what's an example of an expected behavior distilled from the enlightened hospitality and the family values?

我非常喜欢的一个例子是“把盐罐放正”，这体现了对卓越的坚定承诺。

One that I really love is called center the salt shaker, with an unwavering commitment to excellence.

把盐罐放正，意思就是你要按照应有的方式去做事。

And centering the salt shaker means that you're doing things the way they are supposed to be done.

所以这就是一个例子。

So that's one.

如果我对我们整个公司的任何人提起盐罐，成千上万的人都会知道。

And and if I were to say salt shaker to anyone in our whole company, thousands of people.

再加上 Shake Shack 的话，那人数就更多了，好几万人。

And then if you add Shake Shack in, many, many more thousands of people.

对。

Mhmm.

他们只要看到盐瓶，就能明白那是什么意思。

They will actually be able to look at a salt shaker and know what that means.

所以我想，找到能遵守这些行为准则的人，得从招聘开始吧。

So I imagine that finding people who will adhere to those behaviors starts with hiring.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我们团队的水平，永远不会超过我们招进来的人的技术能力，还有他们的情商。

We will never be any better than the quality and the emotional skills in addition to the technical skills of the people who we've hired to be on our team.

所以我们的配方是，49%的技术能力，加上51%的服务技巧。

And so our recipe is 49 parts technical prowess and 51 parts hospitality skills.

我学到的是，如果我们只招最会做饭的人，但他们在做饭时的为人处世不适合团队，那这就是个失败。

I learned that if we're just hiring the person who's the best cook, but they're not great for the team based on who they are while they're doing that cooking, it's a lose.

而且，你知道，我们都会为那些在专业上很出色但对团队文化不太合适的人找借口。

And, you know, we've all made excuses for people who are great at what they do even though they're not great for the culture.

所以这就是为什么我们招聘时，会非常明确地列出我们寻找的情感技能，因为坦白说，我们在面试时识别这些技能的能力，远比在员工加入团队后试图改变他们要强得多。

So that's why when we hire somebody, we're very specific about what the emotional skills are we're looking for because quite frankly, we're much better at identifying those when we interview than we are at changing them once somebody's actually on the team.

我知道哪些类型的人工作得非常出色。

I knew the kind of people who worked really, really well.

我也知道哪些类型的人表现不佳或者不太适合。

I knew the kind of people that didn't work as well or work out as well.

这其实只是……

And it was really just a matter of...

我人生中第一次对自己说，别再凭直觉做事了，开始有意识地去做每一件事。

For the first time in my life, saying, stop being intuitive about everything and start being intentional about everything.

在联合广场咖啡馆，你曾经有过的最成功的10到20个服务员是谁？

Who are the, you know, 10 or 20 most successful servers you've ever had at Union Square Cafe?

你曾经有过的最成功的10到20个厨师是谁？

Who are the 10 or 20 most successful cooks you've ever had?

他们身上到底有什么特质让我感觉这么好？

And what was it about them that made me feel so good?

他们共同具备哪些情感技能？

What are the emotional skills that they all have in common?

当你把这些都放在一起，它们就构成了我所说的“好客指数”。

And when you put them all together, they added up to something that I named the hospitality quotient.

这些好客指数高的人，其实是在让别人感觉更好的时候，自己也会更开心。

And these are people people who have a high h q are people who are actually happier themselves when they make other people feel better.

这跟是不是好会计、好侍酒师，或者会不会做意大利面，一点关系都没有。

That doesn't say a damn thing about a good bookkeeper or a good sommelier or, you know, do they know how to make pasta?

这完全取决于他们的天性。

It's all about their wiring.

我们开始把这些人称为“51%的人”。

And we started calling those people 51 percenters.

后来我意识到这还不够，因为我们当时……

Then I realized that that wasn't even adequate because we were...

我们在招聘51%型人才方面变得非常非常擅长。

Got really, really good at hiring 51 percenters.

有时候甚至不惜牺牲招聘我现在所说的100%型人才。

Sometimes at the expense of hiring what I now call 100 percenters.

如果招来的人只擅长情感技能但厨艺不精，那也没什么用。

It wasn't doing any good to hire people who were only good at the emotional skills but didn't know how to cook very well.

但现在我们真正擅长的是招聘全面型人才，因为我们希望在测试中拿到100分。

But now what we're really good at is hiring the whole thing, because we wanna get a 100 on our test.

对。

Yeah.

作为一个在99年到2004年间经常光顾联合广场咖啡馆的人，我想说，除了美味的金枪鱼，我印象最深的就是服务员们似乎热爱他们的工作，而且他们做得非常好。

As someone who frequented Union Square Cafe from, you know, '99 to 2004, I will say that the one thing I remember the most, apart from the delicious tuna, is the fact that the servers seemed to love their job, and they were really good at it.

这种待客之道不仅对面向消费者的岗位重要，对在公司办公室里的人也很重要，他们需要……

This hospitality quotient is important not just for people in consumer facing roles, but also for people, you know, in the corporate offices who are...

你知道，需要对同事热情友好。

You know, need to be hospitable to their colleagues.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

任何企业，说到底，成败都取决于它的团队。

Any business on Earth is only as good as its team.

真正的竞争，就是看谁能组建最强的团队。

That's the real competition is getting the strongest team.

而且我真的想不到有谁愿意和那些虽然业务能力强，但让人工作起来不舒服的人共事。

And I just don't know anyone who would rather work with people who, in addition to how good they are at their job, aren't also good for how it feels to work there.

你看，我……

Look, I...

其实我是个体育迷，比如说棒球吧，场上每个数据都被统计得清清楚楚，而棒球队的办公室人员也特别擅长处理这些数据。

I'm actually a a sports fan, and sure, you take a sport like baseball where they measure every statistic of what's happening on the field, and the office staff of baseball teams have gotten really expert at dealing with that data.

但奇怪的是，棒球比赛有一半时间你是在休息区度过的。

But the weird thing is that baseball is a game where you spend half the game in the dugout.

在棒球里，我还没听说过哪个统计数据能衡量你在休息区里的表现，也就是说，你对队友来说是个什么样的人？

There's not one statistic I'm aware of in baseball that measures who are you in the dugout, meaning who are you for the rest of your team?

你的行为是不是真的能让团队里的每个人都发挥出最好的水平？

Are your behaviors actually bringing out the best in everybody else on your team?

篮球里确实有这种统计，挺有意思的。

They do have that in basketball, which is very interesting.

就像你的正负值一样。

It's like you're plus minus.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

当然，绝对是这样。

Well Absolutely.

我明白，我明白正负值，是的。

I do understand I do understand the plus minus Yeah.

就比如说……

In terms of...

嗯，我了解在冰球里，你知道，当你在冰上的时候，你上场时进了多少球，对比你们队进了多少球。

Well, I understand in in hockey where, you know, when you're on the ice, how many goals were scored when you were on the ice versus how many goals were scored on your team.

但我觉得我没见过关于你在替补席上时表现的统计。

But I don't think I've seen that with respect to what happens when you're on the bench.

对。

Yeah.

他们不会衡量谁是更衣室里的好队友。

They don't measure, like, who's a good locker room guy.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我说的。

That's that's what I'm talking about.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

那HQ的六个要素是什么？

So what are the six elements of HQ?

第一个是友善的乐观精神。

The first one is kind optimism.

你可以通过看一个人的眼睛来判断他是否友善，但我也认为乐观，也就是希望的近亲，你希望找到真正相信自己能让事情变得更好的人。

And you can look at someone's eyes and see if they have kind eyes, but I also think optimism, which is a first cousin to hope, you want someone who actually believes that they can impact things for the better.

我们寻找的第二个情感技能是好奇心，也就是好奇的智慧。

The second emotional skill we look for is curiosity, curious intelligence.

我们不想雇那些自以为是、什么都懂的人。

We're not interested in hiring know it alls.

我们喜欢雇那些永远在学习的人。

We love hiring learn it alls.

第三个情感技能是职业道德。

The third emotional skill is work ethic.

我们可以教任何人怎么摆桌子，但大多数人是教不会的，就是怎么用心把工作做到最好。

We can teach anybody how to set a table, but we can't teach most people how to care about doing their job as well as it can be done.

我们寻找的第四种情感技能是同理心，就是那种能设身处地想象别人感受的独特能力。

The fourth emotional skill we look for is empathy, which is having the unique ability to imagine what it might be like to walk in someone else's shoes.

我在圣路易斯长大，从小被教导的黄金法则是：你想别人怎么对待你，你就怎么对待别人。

And I think about, you know, the golden rule that I was brought up with growing up in Saint Louis was always do unto others as you want others to do under you.

这是我学到的黄金法则。

That's the golden rule I learned.

对。

Right.

我的黄金法则，我称之为待客之道的黄金法则，就是：你希望别人怎么对待他们，你就怎么对待他们。

My golden rule, I call it the golden rule of hospitality, is do unto others as you believe they would want done unto them.

这很不一样，因为我们每个人都不一样。

And it's very different because we're all different.

所以我不把我的意愿强加给你。

So I don't impose my wants on you.

作为一个有同理心的人，我会试着去想象，你需要什么？

I try to imagine as an empathetic person, what do you need?

你想要什么？

What do you want?

下一个情感技能是自我意识，也就是今天是什么在驱动我？

The next emotional skill is self awareness, which is what's making me tick today?

我今天起床时心情如何？

What side of the bed did I wake up on?

待客之道是一项团队运动。

Hospitality is a team sport.

所以，要了解自己的个人情绪状态，并确保这种状态对团队有利，而不是对团队不利。

So understanding what my personal weather report is and understanding how to make sure that that works for my team and not against my team.

最后是诚信，也就是在没人看着的时候，甚至在可能对自己不利的情况下，也能做出正确判断的能力。

And then finally, integrity, which is having the judgment to do the right thing even when no one else is looking and even when it may not be in your own self interest.

你之前提到你对于扩张有些犹豫，但你不仅扩张了纽约的更多餐厅，还创立了Shake Shack，现在它已经是一个国际连锁品牌了。

So you mentioned your hesitation at wanting to expand, and you expanded not only to sort of more restaurants in New York, but then Shake Shack, which is an international chain now.

那你为什么，或者说你是怎么做到放心迈出那一步，不用事事都亲力亲为的？

So why did you or how did you get comfortable making that leap and not being absolutely in touch with every part of your business?

我身边有很优秀的领导者，他们一直在推动我成长。

I had great leaders who were pushing me to grow.

而且Shake Shack，头五年我们只有一家店。

And Shake Shack, we only had one for the first five years.

现在全球有700多家，但我当时真的不想扩张，因为我父亲破产的事。

Now there's over 700 in the world, but I just didn't really wanna grow it because my own father's bankruptcy.

我总觉得他的两次破产跟扩张有关，实际上我花了好几年做心理治疗，直到他去世我才意识到，你猜怎么着？

I always associated his two bankruptcies with growth, and it took me several years of therapy actually, and also his dying for me to realize that, guess what?

有很多企业都在扩张，但并不是扩张导致他们倒闭的。

There's a whole lot of businesses that have grown, and that's not what put them out of business.

事实上，他们反而发展得很好。

In fact, they've thrived.

所以这既是我自己内心的成长，克服了那个心结，同时也因为我团队里有那样的领导者。

So it was a combination of my own internal growth and getting over that, but also having the kind of leaders on the team.

特别是有个年轻人，叫兰迪·加鲁蒂，他曾经是我们印度餐厅Tabla的总经理，到26岁时已经是联合广场咖啡馆的总经理了。

One in particular, a young man named Randy Garuty, who had been a general manager of our Indian restaurant, Tabla, and then he was the general manager of Union Square Cafe all by the time he was 26 years old.

他想接手Shake Shack，他看到我们在麦迪逊广场公园只有这一家店，但一直都很忙。

And he wanted to take over Shake Shack, and he saw when we just had this one Shake Shack in Madison Square Park, it was busy all the time.

而且很赚钱。

It was making good money.

那家Shake Shack唯一的问题就是顾客抱怨排队太长。

And the only problem we really had at that Shake Shack was the people complained the line was too long.

兰迪最终说服了我。

And Randy finally convinced me.

他说，有办法可以缩短排队，那就是开第二家Shake Shack。

He said, there's one thing we could do to make the line shorter, and that's open a second Shake Shack.

他大概跟我争论了三年左右，我才最终妥协。

And he probably argued with me to do this for a good three years or so before I finally succumbed.

后来我终于想通了，我说，你知道吗？

And I got to the point and I said, you know what?

我是谁啊？

Who am I?

这门生意对社区有好处。

This business is good for its community.

对供应商也有好处。

It's good for its suppliers.

在那里工作的人，都干得挺好的。

The people working there, people were doing really well.

我们雇了很多第一次工作的人，教他们怎么做一个负责任的团队成员。

We were hiring a lot of people for whom it was their first job ever, teaching them about what it means to be a responsible member of a team.

这是件好事，我就想，我凭什么不把这事儿做大呢？

It was a good thing, and I've said, who am I to hold back more of that?

所以五年后，我们在上西区开了第二家Shake Shack。

So we went ahead and opened our second Shake Shack on the Upper West Side five years after the first one.

但唯一的问题是，第一家店的队伍反而更长了。

And the only problem with that was that the line at the first one only got longer.

所以兰迪当初跟我说的那些话，反而起了反作用，但那时候我就想，哎呀，糟了。

So Randy's primary argument to me had backfired, but that's when I said, uh-oh.

我们现在可真是骑虎难下了。

We've got we've got a tiger by the tail here.

你现在这个位置，怎么保持和基层文化的联系呢？

In the position that you're in now, how do you stay in touch with the culture sort of on the ground?

我会亲自去。

I go.

我会去那些地方，而且我真的很在乎。

I go to the places, and I I care.

我有一句话，就是我觉得一个好的领导者，尤其是在成长阶段，需要停止微观管理，但要在微观关怀上加倍投入。

I have an expression, which is that I think a good leader, especially as she's growing, needs to stop micromanaging, but needs to double down on microcaring.

所以只要哪里有Shake Shack，不管是在国内还是世界各地，我都会顺路去打个招呼。

So I don't travel anywhere in the country or in the world where there's a Shake Shack without stopping in to say hi.

我有所有Shake Shack门店经理的名单，我会直接点名找经理。

I have a list of all the managers at every single Shake Shack, and I ask for the manager by name.

他们很惊讶我会这么做。

And they are surprised that I do that.

他们很惊讶我认识他们。

They're surprised that I know them.

其实这周我刚去了一次，在波士顿。

I just did one this week, actually, in Boston.

哦。

Oh.

那位总经理，她叫芭比，看到我能叫出她的名字，特别惊讶。

And the general manager, whose name is Barbie, was amazed that I asked for her by name.

然后我会花时间和她聊聊。

And then I spend time with her.

我也会和她的团队待一会儿，问问他们，你们觉得我们哪里还能做得更好？

I spend time with her team, and I ask them, you know, what can we do better?

每个人都喜欢被这么问，你猜怎么着？

Everyone loves when you ask them that, and guess what?

我就能得到好点子。

I get good ideas.

所以这一切都始于关心。

And so it starts with caring.

始于亲自到场，但我不是去微观管理的。

It starts with showing up, but I'm not micromanaging.

我不是去告诉任何人该怎么做他们的工作。

I'm not telling anyone how to do their job.

我去那里不是为了玩抓小辫子的游戏。

I'm not going there to play a game of gotcha.

实际上，我去那里是抱着学习的心态。

As a matter of fact, I'm going there to play the game of teach me.

给我展示一下。

Show me.

让我看看你们引以为傲的东西，因为每个人在工作中都有值得骄傲的地方。

Let me let me see what you're proud of because everyone's proud of something in their job.

然后我会回去跟他们的老板再强调一下，那个老板……

And then I circle back and reinforce it with their boss who...

我希望他们的老板不会对他们管得太细，但我确实希望他们的老板能看到他们，并且比我更关心他们。

I hope their own boss doesn't micromanage them, but I do hope that their boss gets to see them and care even more than I do.

对。

Yeah.

在你走访时遇到问题，或者你感觉到整个企业文化在走下坡路的那段时间里，

In periods when you've either encountered problems on those visits, or you've sensed that through the entire corporate culture is slipping.

我记得你在书里把它描述成像是走偏了。

I think in the book you described it as like going sideways.

你是怎么去纠正的？

How do you move to correct it?

如果我去一家不直接向我汇报的餐厅，我唯一会纠正的事情就是，如果我觉得那有危险，或者会立刻让我们失去顾客。

The only things I will correct if I'm visiting a restaurant that doesn't report directly to me is if I think it's either dangerous or it's gonna cost us customers that minute.

所以我走进过Shake Shack。

So I've walked into Shake Shack.

几个月前我去了一家芝加哥的店，周日下午四点左右走进去，你根本不会想到那时候餐厅会忙，但那里还是挤满了人。

I went into one in Chicago a couple months ago, and I walked in on a Sunday afternoon at about four when you would not expect the restaurant to be busy, and yet the place was still packed.

我注意到地上有水洒了，调味台表面也有番茄酱。

And I noticed that there was water spilled on the floor, and I noticed that there was ketchup on the condiment station right on the surface.

我对自己说，这看起来不对劲。

And I said to myself, this doesn't look right.

感觉也不对。

It doesn't feel right.

那时候，我找了经理，打了招呼，介绍了自己，但我带了一种我称之为“善意的假设”的态度。

And in that case, I asked for the manager, said hello, introduced myself, but I brought what I call a charitable assumption.

我没有说这里现在看起来不干净。

I didn't say this place doesn't look clean right now.

我说，看起来你们今天特别忙。

I said, looks like you've had an incredibly busy day today.

所以我就这样开始了整个对话，然后我了解到，那天确实有个大活动，他们一直在忙着补上进度。

So I started the whole conversation with that, And I learned, yeah, there was some big event that day and they were just playing catch up.

然后他说，不知道你有没有十五分钟，如果有的话，这地方马上就能焕然一新。

And he he said, I don't know if you got fifteen minutes, but this place is gonna look like day one if you got fifteen minutes.

我会让你看到的，只是我们现在还在赶进度。

I'm gonna show you that, but we're just playing catch up right now.

对。

Mhmm.

我也遇到过食物味道不对的情况。

I've had an experience where something in the food didn't taste right.

我现在说的不是Shake Shack。

And I'm not talking about Shake Shack now.

我说的是我们另一家餐厅，我跟他们说，伙计们，我们得先把这道菜从菜单上撤下来，搞清楚怎么回事再说，因为它的味道不该是这样的。

I've talked about another one of our restaurants, and I said, guys, we've gotta take that off the menu till we figure out what's going on because that's not how it's supposed to taste.

对我来说，离开那里之前，把盐罐摆正很重要。

It's important for me that when I leave there, we center the salt shaker.

我们要回到正确的做法上，但我也希望人们能感到自豪，因为他们在一个冠军团队里，而最终老板对这件事非常在意。

We we go back to doing it the right way, but I also want people to feel proud that they're on a championship team whose ultimate boss cares deeply about that.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

然后，每次我都会绝对地跟进，不管是好消息还是建设性的意见，我都会去找那个人的上级谈，或者写封邮件什么的。

I then, in every case, I absolutely circle back, whether it's good news or constructive news, to speak to that person's boss or write an email or whatever.

而且我们还有一种文化，就是每当我到我们任何一家餐厅用餐，第二天早上肯定会收到主厨和总经理的邮件，问我反馈意见。

But we also have a culture where whenever I dine in any of our restaurants, I know that the next morning, I'm gonna have an email from the chef and the general manager asking me for feedback.

他们就是想要这个。

They want they want it.

这也是文化的一部分，他们不会等着我说这个好或者那个可以改进。

And that's part of the culture is is that they don't wait for me to say this was good or that could have been better.

我希望他们直接说，把好东西给我们，因为我是站在我们这边的。

I want them literally to be saying, give us the goods because I'm on our side.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们之前聊过，招聘时要看服务意识、技术能力，还有最终要有的良好判断力。

So we talked about hiring for hospitality quotient and technical skills and and ultimately good judgment.

你是怎么把人们融入这种文化，让大家都保持一致，然后又怎么激励他们去遵守呢？

How do you indoctrinate people into the culture so that everyone is on the same page, and then also incentivize adherence to it?

我们从招聘的那一刻起就开始谈论这个。

We talk about this from the minute that we hire people.

我们会告诉人们，当我们说“百分之百的人”时是什么意思。

We tell people what we mean when we say a 100 percenter.

我们会告诉人们，不是每个人都能在这里被录用。

We tell people not everyone gets hired here.

我们非常非常挑剔，我们会告诉人们，我们看中了他们身上的什么，才决定录用他们。

We're really, really selective, and we tell people exactly what we saw in them that made us wanna hire them.

所以从一开始，我们就让人们知道，我们录用你，是因为我们相信你已经具备或者有潜力成为我们付钱让你做的那份工作的高手，但这还不够。

So right from the get go, we're letting people know we hired you because we believe that you either already have or have the potential to be really, really good at the job that we are paying you to do, but that's not enough.

还有另外51%让我们非常想录用你，那就是因为你的为人。

There's another 51% that made us really wanna hire you, and that's for who you are.

我们还会谈论我们正在寻找的六种情感技能是什么。

And we talk about what the six emotional skills are right there that we're looking for.

而且我们会让大家知道，在做绩效评估的时候，我们会讨论你在那49%方面做得怎么样，以及在那51%方面做得怎么样。

And we let people know that when you have a performance review, we're gonna be talking about how you're doing with the 49% and how you're doing with the 51%.

我们在联合广场餐饮集团的所有餐厅里甚至都这样做了。

We even had at Union Square Hospitality Group with all of our restaurants.

当你为我们工作时，其中一个福利就是，无论你什么时候来我们任何一家店，你都能享受51%的餐饮折扣，这就在不断强化什么才是重要的。

When you work for us, one of the benefits is you have a 51% dining discount whenever you come to any of our places, and it's just constantly reinforcing what matters.

而且不仅仅是墙上的标语，我们还会表扬那些做对事情的人，并且非常清楚地指出你具体做对了什么，从而强化了我们的文化。

And then not just words on the wall, but we also catch people doing things right, and we're very, very clear with what you did right that reinforces the culture.

然后，艾莉森，可能最重要的一点是，随着公司成长，获得晋升的人必须是那些最能体现、示范和践行我们期望的行为以及技术表现的人。

And then probably the most important thing, Allison, is that the people that get the promotions as you're growing have got to be the people that best illustrate, exemplify, embody the behaviors as well as the technical performance you want.

而且，不管丹尼多少次谈论对他来说重要的事情。

And it doesn't matter how many times Danny talks about what matters to him.

如果获得晋升和加薪的人与大家从我嘴里或文字中听到的那些话相悖，那几乎比我从一开始就没说过那些话还要糟糕，因为这只会让我看起来好像并不是真心实意的。

If the people getting the promotions and raises are contrary to the words that they hear from my mouth or from my writing, then it's almost worse than if I had never said those things in the first place because it just makes me look like I didn't really mean it.

所以，随着我们发展壮大，推进文化最重要的事情就是确保获得晋升的人是热情好客的典范，他们才是真正的文化传承者。

And so the most important thing we can do to advance our culture as we grow is to make sure that the people getting the promotions are the exemplars of our hospitality, and they are truly the culture carriers.

所以在任何大型组织里，只要有多个业务单元和职能部门，就很容易形成一些小圈子文化。

So in any large organization where you have multiple business units and functions, there is a tendency for sort of microcultures to develop.

所以我在想，尤其是在像你们这样的组织里，在Shake Shack上市之前，业务范围从最高端的正餐一直到你们所谓的休闲快餐，但又是连锁的那种。

And so I'm just wondering, especially in an organization like yours that before the Shake Shack IPO definitely spanned everything from the highest level fine dining to what you call fine casual, but a chain.

你们是怎么防止这种情况发生的？

How did you prevent that from happening?

或者如果真的发生了，又是怎么纠正的？

Or when it did happen, fix it?

我觉得你说的其实是“店的自豪感”和“公司的自豪感”之间的区别。

I think what you're talking about is the difference between house pride and company pride.

尽管我们的文化有共同点，或者说所有门店都应该有共同点。

And as much as there are commonalities to the culture or should be for all of our places.

我把它叫做“指纹”。

I call it the thumbprint.

我们其实很喜欢这些小圈子文化。

We love the microcultures.

我们不喜欢的，是当它破裂时，兄弟般的欢乐变成了兄弟间的竞争。

What we don't love is when it breaks down and sibling revelry turns into sibling rivalry.

我们不喜欢这家餐厅不站在另一家餐厅一边。

We don't like when this restaurant is not on the side of the other restaurant.

我不介意他们为了卓越而互相竞争。

I don't mind that they're competing with each other for excellence.

我觉得这完全不是坏事，但我真的很介意他们做任何有破坏性的事情。

I think that's not a bad thing at all, but I really mind when when they do anything that's in a destructive way.

我们见过一家餐厅内部的兄弟竞争。

We've seen sibling rivalry within one restaurant.

我们以前也见过一家餐厅内部的小文化。

We've seen micro cultures within one restaurant before.

如果问题是，你对此怎么办？

And if the question is, what do you do about it?

你得积极应对。

You gotta lean in.

你得亲眼看看。

You gotta see it.

你得告诉大家，我们这里不是这么办事的。

You gotta tell people that's not how we do things around here.

如果有人不认同这种做法，那他们就不能再留在团队里了。

And if people can't get with that program, then they can't be on the team anymore.

那公司总部的文化，可能更注重盈利，和一线文化，比如在Shake Shack或者高档餐厅，更注重让顾客和团队满意，这两者之间的紧张关系怎么处理？

What about the tension between corporate office culture, which maybe is incentivized to prioritize profitability, and the on the ground culture, whether it's at Shake Shack or the fine dining restaurants, to really care most about pleasing the customer and the team there.

从生意一开始，就有

Since the beginning of business, you've had

对。

Exactly.

销售团队和生产团队，不管是杂志的编辑和出版，还是工厂的制造和销售，在我们这样的集团里都是这样。

The sales team and the production team, whether it's a magazine, editorial, and publishing, whether it's a factory, which is manufacturing and sales in a group like ours.

还有一种是总部或支持部门，和那些做饭、上菜、洗碗的人之间的区别。

Another one could be the home office or the support office and the people who are cooking the food, serving the food, and doing the dishes.

作为公司的领导者，这是我的职责，但也是每个人的职责，我们要意识到我们是一个团队。

And it's my job as the leader of the company, but it's everybody's job to realize we are one team.

我们办公室之所以叫支持办公室，是因为办公室里每个人工作的唯一目的就是帮助一线的人更成功。

And the reason that our office is a support office is the only reason anyone in that office has a job is for the purpose of helping the people in the field be more successful.

我们一直做得很好吗？

And were we always good at it?

当然不是。

Absolutely not.

我的意思是，我见过有些年份，总部的人会召集厨师开会，比如下午两点，而那时候厨师刚结束午餐服务，正在考虑晚餐服务。

I mean, I saw years where someone in the home office would call a chef meeting for, you know, two in the afternoon when the chef is just breaking down lunch service and thinking about dinner service.

不能那样做。

You can't do that.

这类事情就成了让人恼火的地方。

And those kind of things became irritants.

所以，归根结底还是要招对人，让他们明白自己的角色是什么。

So, again, it gets back to hiring the right people who understand what their role is.