为什么讲故事在改变公司文化时很重要

欢迎收听《哈佛商业评论》领导力系列。

Welcome to HBR on leadership.

本系列节目精选了全球顶尖商业与管理专家的案例研究和对话，旨在帮助您激发身边人的最大潜能。

These episodes include case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you.

我是《哈佛商业评论》执行编辑艾莉森·比尔德。

I'm HBR executive editor, Alison Beard.

故事与叙事是企业世界诸多方面的核心。

Stories and storytelling are at the core of many aspects of the corporate world.

想想一个出色的品牌营销活动，或者在求职面试中如何成功推销自己。

Consider a great brand campaign or the ability to sell yourself in a job interview.

对于希望赢得对新战略和举措支持的管理者来说，这也是极其重要的技能。

It's also an extremely important skill for managers who want to win support for new strategies and initiatives.

在2023年这一期《哈佛商业评论》IdeaCast节目中，杰伊·巴尼教授解释了为何善于进行恰当叙事的领导者更能实现变革性转变。

In this HBR IdeaCast episode from 2023, professor Jay Barney explains why leaders who engage in the right kind of storytelling are more successful in achieving transformational change.

他还概述了最有效的策略，用以构建和传播能够促成真正文化变革的叙事。

He also outlines the tactics that work best for developing and circulating a narrative that prompts true cultural shifts.

欢迎收听哈佛商业评论的HBR IdeaCast。

Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review.

我是库尔特·尼凯什。

I'm Kurt Nikesh.

许多优秀的企业都致力于转型自己的业务。

Many great companies set out to transform their businesses.

它们会制定新的战略。

They come up with new strategies.

它们进行重组，甚至改变行业，实现数字化。

They restructure, maybe even change industries, go digital.

但很多时候，这些深思熟虑的努力最终收效甚微。

But many times, those well thought out efforts end up falling flat.

为什么？

Why?

是公司文化。

The company culture.

如果它不符合新战略，你就完蛋了。

If it doesn't fit the new strategy, you're toast.

所以显而易见的做法是改变文化。

So the obvious thing to do is to change the culture.

对吧？

Right?

但我们知道，这真的很难。

Well, we know that's really hard.

这比CEO的影响力还要大。

It's bigger than a CEO.

这并不是HR文件上写下来的东西。

It's not about what is written down on paper in HR documents.

很难定义，更不用说改变了。

It's not easy to define, much less change.

但今天的嘉宾研究了那些成功调整文化以适应新战略的领导者。

But today's guest has studied leaders who were able to change their culture to fit a new strategy.

关键在于他们如何通过讲故事来强化这种转变，这些故事在他们的工作场所中广泛流传，因为文化很大程度上是由员工和管理者之间彼此以及对公司和公司所做事情的交谈方式所塑造的，也就是他们讲述的故事。

The takeaway is how they told stories to reinforce that shift, stories that circulated around their workplaces, because a lot of what creates a culture is the way that employees and managers talk to each other about each other and about the company and what it does, the stories they tell.

杰伊·巴尼将为我们进一步讲述。

Jay Barney is here to tell us more.

他是犹他大学埃克尔斯商学院的教授，也是我的母校。

He's a professor at the Eccles School of Business at the University of Utah, my alma mater.

他与马诺埃尔·阿莫林和卡洛斯·朱利奥合著了《文化变革的秘密：如何构建能转变组织的真实故事》一书。

He is a coauthor along with Manoel Amorim and Carlos Jullio of the book The Secret of Culture Change, How to Build Authentic Stories that Transform Your Organization.

他们还撰写了《哈佛商业评论》文章《创造改变公司文化的故事》。

They also wrote the HBR article, Create Stories that Change Your Company Culture.

杰伊，很高兴你来参加我们的节目。

Jay, glad to have you on the show.

我对此非常兴奋。

I'm very excited about it.

你采访了数十位首席执行官，包括那些文化变革失败和成功的人，听起来这不仅仅是运气或偶然的成功。

So you spoke to dozens of CEOs, some who failed at changing their culture, those who succeeded, and it sounds like it's more than just luck or random success.

是的

Yeah.

我不会否认这些事情中确实有一点运气和时机的因素。

I wouldn't discount that there is a little bit of luck and timing in these things.

总有一些运气成分在内。

There's always some that goes on.

但我们发现，我们所访谈的许多商业领袖都具备这种能力。

But we found there are many of the business leaders we talked to.

他们中的许多人是首席执行官。

Many of them were CEOs.

有些人则是工厂经理、部门总经理或大型办公室的经理。

Some were, like, plant managers or division general managers or office managers of large offices.

其中一些人具备一种反复重塑组织文化的模式，这表明这不仅仅是运气，而确实是一种技能。

Some of them have a pattern of being able to change organ their organizations' cultures that they repeat over time, which suggests that it's not just luck, that there's actually a a skill involved.

我们的任务就是试图理解这些使他们能够实现文化变革的技能组合。

And our task was to try to understand what those set of skills were that enabled them to make culture change happen.

这很有趣，因为你面对的是一个非常棘手的问题，却有一个非常简单的解决方案。

Well, it's really interesting because you have this very hard problem, and then you have a very simple solution.

是的。

Yes.

你想改变文化，于是说要创造故事，这听起来很简单。

You wanna change the culture, and you say create stories, which seems easy.

让我先举个例子。

Well, let me let me start with an example.

我的合著者在巴西电信公司Tell SP的经历，当时这家公司处于高度监管的环境中，正准备进入一个去监管的环境，同时面临全新的竞争对手和技术。

And, my co author's ex experience at Tell SP, which was a Brazilian telecom that was operating in a highly regulated environment, was about to move into a deregulated environment facing whole new competitors and whole new technologies at the same time.

而且所有这些变化都将同时发生。

Also, all that was gonna happen at once.

他们形成了非常、非常自上而下的文化，一种极具权威性的自上而下文化。

They had developed a very, very top down culture, aggressively top down culture.

以至于，举个例子，公司的文化价值观之一是：组织内没有人能和CEO同乘一部电梯，这听起来确实有点奇怪，我承认。

So much so, for example, that one of the cultural values was that no one in the organization could ride with the CEO in the same, elevator car, which is, like, sort of bizarre, I admit.

但无论如何，这恰恰象征着该组织已经变得多么等级森严，尽管它很成功。

But nevertheless, that was sort of the symbol of of just how top down that organization had become, but successful.

所以，是的，你正从一种在受监管垄断环境中合理的自上而下文化，转向另一种环境。

So, yeah, you're going from a top down culture, which makes sense in a world where, you know, you're you kinda have a regulated monopoly, essentially.

当然。

Sure.

这基本上就是实际情况。

That's basically what it was.

而你将进入一个仍然受监管但更具竞争性的市场，在那里，更快、更具创新性的公司可能会让你惨败。

And you're going to a much more still regulated but competitive market where, you know, faster, more innovative companies could eat your lunch.

对吧？

Right?

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

垄断者在更具竞争性的市场中能够存活下来，这根本不是板上钉钉的事。

Not a slam dunk at all that you would be the that the monopolist would be the the survivor in a much more competitive market.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，马诺埃尔做了什么？

So what did Manoel do?

首先，你必须改变你的战略。

Well, the first thing is just you have to change your strategy.

你不能只关注满足政府设定的目标。

You can't be just worrying about addressing government defined goals.

你必须转向一种重视客户服务、重视满足和超越客户电信需求的文化。

You basically have to go to a culture that values customer service and that values satisfying, delighting customers on their telecommunications needs.

他具体做的一件事是，采购了公司即将推出的一项新技术和新产品，那是一项新技术。

So the specific thing that he did, he bought a new technology, new product that the company was coming out with, and it and it was a new technology.

但它表现得并不好。

It didn't work very well.

于是，他拨打了客服热线，接通了一位兼职的客服人员。

And so, he called the helpline, where so he got on the line with a, you know, part time worker at the helpline.

顺便说一下，过去按照旧的文化，有两个客服热线，一个是给公司高管的，另一个是给其他所有人，也就是普通消费者的。

Now previously, by the way, consistent with the old culture, there had been two helplines, one for senior managers in the firm and one for everyone else, all well, consumers.

所以他做的第一件事就是取消了给高管的热线，说：嘿。

And so the first thing he did is he eliminated the one for senior managers and said, hey.

我们遇到了技术问题。

We got problems with technology.

我们必须使用其他人使用的那个客服热线。

We have to go to the helpline that everyone else has to go to.

于是他和这个年轻人进行了长达两小时的对话，但仍然没有取得成功。

So then he is in this two hour conversation with this young man, and they're still not not having success.

所以最后，在两小时后，他说：我想让你知道。

And so finally, after two hours, he says, I wanna let you know.

我是这家公司的首席执行官。

I'm the CEO of the company.

当然，对方根本不相信他，所以花了几分钟才让他相信。

And, of course, the the guy doesn't believe him, so it takes a few minutes to convince him.

然后发生了什么，埃马纽埃尔问：为了能解决我这个技术问题，你需要知道些什么？这个年轻人列出了14项内容。

And then what happens is, he asks Emmanuel asks, so what would you needed to know in order for you to be able to solve my technical problem with this And this this young man generates a list of 14 things.

我们需要这些，还有这些，到目前为止，你有多少信息是可以获取的？

This this this we need these this and how much how much of this information do you have access to at this point?

答案是只有两到三项。

And the answer was two or three things.

接下来事情变得有趣了。

And then it gets interesting.

然后埃马纽埃尔说：你愿意带着几位同事来参加我们下次的执行委员会会议吗？

And then then Manoel says, would you be willing with a couple of your colleagues to come to our next executive committee meeting?

这是公司里一个高级别的团队。

This is a senior group in the organization.

向他们解释这14项需求，以及我们需要做些什么来支持这项新的产品技术。

And explain what those 14 things are and what needs to be done in order for us to support this this new product technology.

记住，这是一个等级森严的组织。

Remember, this is deeply hierarchical organization.

就是这样。

It's just Right.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

这跳过了好几个层级。

This is skipping a few levels.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

哦，只是几个而已。

Oh, just a few.

这个家伙根本不是TELUS B的员工。

It's this is this guy is not even an employee of TELUS B.

他是个外包员工。

He's an outsourced employee.

他是兼职的。

He's a part time.

结果发现他是个大学生。

He's it turns out he's a college student.

不管怎样，他和同事们来参加这次会议，说了一下我们需要做什么。

Anyway, he and his colleagues come to this meeting, sort of here's what we need to do.

这是我们要解决的问题。

Here's here's the problems.

这里有14件事。

Here are the 14 things.

马诺埃尔向他表达了感谢。

Manoel thanks him.

他们离开了房间。

They leave the room.

他转向那些人，说：好吧。

He turns to the the people and says, okay.

所以情况是这样的。

So here's the deal.

两周内，我们会制定出一个计划。

In two weeks, we're gonna have a plan.

我们会把计划规划好并准备就绪，以便收集支持这款产品所需的全部14项信息。

We're gonna have it planned and ready to execute that will help us collect all 14 bits of information we need to support this product.

在我们拥有这个计划之前，我们将暂停销售这款产品，因为一家以客户为导向的公司不会销售无法支持的产品。

Till we have that plan, we're gonna suspend the sales of this product because that's a customer oriented company doesn't sell a product they can't support.

然后你要向我们提交一个计划，说明我们如何获取所需的信息。

And and then then you're gonna present a plan for us about how we're gonna, get this this information that we need.

你不是要向我们提交这个计划。

You're not gonna present it to us.

你要向我们刚刚提到的呼叫中心的那些人提交这个计划。

You're gonna present it to these these people from the call center we just talked to.

所以你要向呼叫中心的员工汇报。

So you're gonna be reporting to the call center employees.

两周后，果然发生了。

And, two weeks later, sure enough, it happens.

他们准确地收集到了信息，产品最终取得了巨大成功。

They get the information right, and the product turns out to be very, very successful.

所以这全是好消息。

So it's all good news.

是的。

Yeah.

但从文化角度来看，这真正彻底改变了我们对组织文化、谁负责以及我们在公司中重视什么的思维方式。

But from a cultural point of view, it just literally is a a revolution in the way of thinking about organizational culture, about who's in charge, about what we value in this company.

它关乎重视客户和客户关系。

It's about valuing customers and customer relationships.

它不是关于等级制度、向老板低头或盲目服从老板的命令。

It's not about hierarchy and bowing to the boss and and doing whatever the boss has to say.

所以。

So.

明白了。

Gotcha.

现在，你刚刚把这个故事讲给了我——CRAIG：而且

Now, you have just told this story to me -CRAIG: and

但对我们观众来说，在这个故事里并没有发生任何叙事，对吧？

to our audience, but in that story, there was no storytelling happening, right?

-就像

-Like,

不，你说得对。

No, that's is right.

只是

Just

没错。

That's correct.

有行动发生。

There was action.

有事情被做了。

There was something that was done.

也许方式不同。

Maybe differently.

这是有效的，因为它是有策略的。

It was effective, because it was strategic.

但故事讲述的部分体现在哪里？

But where does the storytelling part of it come in?

在哪里

Where does

不。

the No.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

是的

Yeah.

所以你所做的就是采取行动，而这些行动会创造出其他员工会分享的故事。

So what you do is you engage in actions, and the actions create stories that other employees share.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

随着时间推移，你可能会回来一遍又一遍地讲述这个故事。

Over time, you may come back and actually tell the story again and again.

所以这可能在之后发生。

So that may happen later on.

但当你最初在创造这个故事的过程中，你会付诸行动。

But when you're in the process of creating the story in the first place, you act.

你会做一些与旧文化不一致、但与某种新文化一致的事情。

You do things that are inconsistent with the old culture but are consistent with some new culture.

这是我们判断一个故事是否成功的标准之一。

That's one of our criteria for being a successful story.

它与过去决裂，同时指向未来。

It's got a break with the past with a path to the future.

这个例子正是这一类的典型，明确地与过去划清界限。

And this example is just a classic of this, a clear break with the past.

我们没有看到任何例子。

We saw no examples.

我们采访了大约60位来自多个行业、多家公司的商业领袖。

We interviewed 60 or so business leaders across multiple industries, multiple firms, etcetera.

我们没有看到任何例子，零个，文化成功变革是从宣布我们要改变文化开始的。

We saw no examples, zero, where culture successful culture change started with the announcement that we were gonna change our culture.

这不过是空谈。

It's it's just cheap talk.

这只不过是又一件无关紧要的事。

It's just like just another thing.

来了。

Here it comes.

CEO想改变企业文化。

CEO wants to change the culture.

好的。

Okay.

每个人都说，当然可以。

And everyone says, sure.

我们会改变企业文化，先生。

We'll we'll change the culture, sir.

但没人相信这是真正的承诺。

But no one believes that it's really a commitment.

没人相信，因为这只是空话。

No one because it's cheap talk.

轻易就能退缩。

It's easy to back off of it.

但行动比言语更难撤回、退让或反悔。

But action is much harder to to back down, back off of, walk back, than words.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，没错，你要先行动。

So, yeah, you act first.

故事随后才会出现。

The stories then follow.

但这些商业领袖并不会把故事写下来。

But these business leaders don't write down the stories.

他们也不会详细规划或做类似的事情。

They don't plan them out in detail or anything like that.

它们以一种真实的方式浮现，因为它们反映了他们对组织需要做什么的根深蒂固的信念。

They they they emerge in authentic way because it reflect their deeply held beliefs about what the organization needs to do.

然后这些故事开始被传播。

And then those stories start getting shared.

结果就是，支持新文化的这些新故事取代了支持旧文化的旧故事。

And what happens is those new stories that support a new culture replace the old stories that supported the old culture.

当这些故事在组织中逐渐传播开来时，我们就看到了文化的变革。

And then as that diffuses out the organization, that's how we see culture change.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果你想改变‘我们这里不是这样做事的’这种说法，就得用不同的方式去做，然后人们就会说‘我们这里就是这样做事的’。

I mean, if you wanna change the story of that's not how we do things around here, you do it differently, and then people say this is how you do things around here.

没错，正是这样。

That's that's exactly right.

所以，似乎非常重要的一点是，不要编造故事，而是要创造故事。

So it seems very important not to make up the story, but to make the story.

对。

Yeah.

这必须是我们最初的准则之一。

It's gotta be, one of the our first criteria.

我们研究了足够多的案例，因此能够真正描述出那些确实促进文化变革的故事，以及那些没有效果的故事。

We we what we did, we studied enough of these so we could actually describe stories that seem to to to actually facilitate cultural change and those that don't.

第一个标准是，这个故事必须符合讲述者本人的真实情况。

And the first criteria is that the story, has to be authentic to the person who's building the story.

例如，如果你作为一名企业领导者的价值观并不以客户为中心，却说我们要建立一个以客户为中心的文化，没人会相信你。

So for example, if your values as a as a business leader are not customer oriented and you say, we're gonna build a customer oriented culture, no one's gonna believe you.

员工能从很远的地方就嗅出虚伪的气息。

Employees can smell hypocrisy from miles away.

这第一个标准是，这些故事必须真正契合你的个人价值观，也契合你对组织所面临战略挑战的理解。

The first criteria for this is that these stories have to be really authentic both to your personal values and also to your understanding of the strategic challenges facing the organization.

你刚才提到了个人价值观。

Now, you mentioned personal values there.

比如，对于组织领导者来说，让第一人称参与进来有多重要？

Like, how important is it to bring, like, the first person into it for organizational leaders?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我们的第二个标准是，企业领导者必须亲自出演这个故事。

So our second criteria is they have to the business leader has to star in the story.

我知道在管理学和组织变革文献中，关于自上而下和自下而上有很多讨论。

I know there's a lot of discussion in the management, organizational change literature about top down versus bottom up.

我想再强调一次，我们没有看到任何成功的文化变革案例，零个，这些变革都不是从高层开始的。

And I I just wanna say again, we saw no examples, zero examples of successful culture change that did not start at the top.

这并不意味着这些领导者不与组织的其他成员互动。

That doesn't mean that that these leaders don't engage the rest of the organization.

他们显然会这样做。

They clearly do.

但变革必须从高层开始，并且当这种变革是真实的——当一位业务领导者以打破过去、为新文化指明方向的方式行事时，而这位领导者正是自己故事中的主角。

But it starts at the top, and it starts when that's authentic, when a business leader behaves in in ways that break with the past and give guidance to a new culture, and that individual stars in their story.

当然，其他人也会参与进来。

Now other people will be there.

所以马诺埃尔在LSP发起了这个故事，嗯。

So Manoel started the story Mhmm.

但在LSP，整个高管团队都在场。

At at LSP, but the whole executive team was there.

那些人创造了这些故事。

Those are the people who create the stories.

他们讲述这些故事。

They they they tell the stories.

如果你被要求在自己的故事中成为主角，不管你喜欢与否，作为组织领导者，你就是故事中的一个角色。

Now if you are supposed to feature yourself in your stories, you know, if you like like it or not, you know, as an organizational leader, you are a character in the story.

当然。

Absolutely.

这会不会显得自夸？

Can that come off like bragging

会的。

Sure.

这会损害你的努力吗？

That is going to hurt your efforts?

不会。

No.

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

所以这里有个问题，就是我如何能在自己的故事中成为主角，同时保持谦逊和开放？

And so there's a there's a question of, you know, how can I star in my story and still be humble and open?

嗯，有几件事你需要明白。

Well, there's there's a couple things to realize this.

首先，你是一位商业领袖。

The first is you're a business leader.

人们会深入关注你的所作所为，无论你是否希望如此。

People are watching what you do in-depth, and they do that whether you want them to or not.

所以你已经自然而然地成为了故事的主角。

So you are already starting in the story.

关键在于，你打算构建怎样的故事？

It's the question is what story are you gonna build?

对吧？

Right?

第二点是，你必须明白，虽然文化变革的过程从顶层开始，但让这种变革在整个组织中扩散开来同样重要。

The second thing is you have to also understand while the culture change process starts at the top, it's important that they diffuse throughout the organization.

而实现这一点的方式，是业务领导者再讲几个故事。

And and the way that happens is a business leader builds a couple more stories.

只讲一个故事时，人们仍然持观望态度。

With one story, people are still cautious.

这到底是真的吗？

Is this real or not?

但如果你能做两到三件如此激进的事情，人们就开始明白其中的意义了。

But you do two or three of these kinds of really radical things, and people start getting the idea.

然后，组织中的其他人也开始感受到一种力量，意识到自己也可以创造属于自己的故事。

And then other people in the organization start feeling empowered by, the possibility, that they could build their own stories.

有时候，这种现象会发生在组织内的其他高级经理或业务领导者身上。

Sometimes that happens with other senior managers, business leaders in the organization.

顺便说一句，作为业务领导者，你是能够看到这一点的。

And you can by the way, as a business leader, you can see that.

你可以去找另一位业务领导者，说：听我说。

You can go to, another business leader and say, listen.

我想请你做一件事，讲一个与新文化一致的故事。

I'd like you to do something that builds a story that is consistent with the news culture.

我不能告诉你这个故事具体是什么，因为它必须对你而言是真实的，但我确实能感觉到这种变化正在发生。

Now I can't tell you what that story is because it has to be authentic to you, but I can I can sort of see that happen?

让我再给你一个非常棒的例子。

Let me give you another really, great example of this.

实际上，在犹他州有一家公司叫Traeger。

There's a company actually here in in Utah called Traeger.

你知道Traeger烤炉吗？

You know Traeger Grills?

我相信你一定知道。

I'm sure you do.

是的。

Mhmm.

负责特雷格公司的杰里米·安德雷斯曾是特雷格的投资者，他逐渐意识到特雷格有潜力颠覆一个实际上已经非常成熟的市场——户外烹饪市场，比如烧烤架和烟熏炉之类的产品。

The person who was running Traeger, Jeremy Andres, was an investor in Traeger for a while, became convinced that Traeger had the potential for disrupting what was an actually a very mature market, which is the outdoor cooking market, you know, barbecues and smokers and things.

但他所继承的组织文化却非常有毒。

But the organization that he sort of inherited had a really toxic culture.

他基本上关闭了原来的公司运营地点，并将公司迁到了犹他州。

He basically closed up, the organization where it was and, moved it here to Utah.

他从零开始建立了一种全新的企业文化。

Basically, built a new culture from scratch.

他所强调的这种新文化中的一个关键价值观，他通过自己的行为来示范，并围绕它构建故事，那就是客户服务——客户服务没有上限。

And one of the critical values of this new culture that he talked about, he tried to show in his own behavior, build stories around, had to do with customer service, sort of, there was no limit on customer service.

他周一来上班时，销售副总裁进来对他说：你听说罗布周末做了什么吗？

He comes in working on Monday, and his, sales VP comes in and says, did you hear what Rob did over the weekend?

罗布是谁？

Who's Rob?

罗布是个一线员工。

Well, Rob's this first line employee.

他有一些职责，但那时他还不是高级经理。

He has some responsibilities, but he's not a senior manager then.

他只是一个在办公室努力工作、做自己事情的普通员工。

He's just a he's just a guy in the office working hard, doing his thing.

显然，罗布接到了一位特雷格客户的电话，这位客户住在西雅图。

And apparently, Rob somehow got a phone call from a customer, a Traeger customer in Seattle.

他的特雷格烤炉坏了。

His Traeger grill is not working.

这位客户是西雅图地区一家好市多的销售经理。

Now this customer was a manager, a sales manager at one of a Costco up in in the Seattle area.

好市多当然是特雷格的重要客户。

And Costco, of course, is an important customer for Traeger.

于是罗布听完电话后，诊断出问题，去办公室取了所需零件，登上飞机飞往西雅图，换上零件修好了设备，帮那位顾客腌制了牛胸肉，然后搭飞机返回。

So this Rob listens to the phone call and diagnoses the problem, goes to the office, picks up the part that's needed, gets on an airplane, flies to Seattle, fixes the part, fixes the machine with the part, helps the guy, season his brisket, okay, gets back on the airplane, flies home.

他周一早上照常来上班，觉得这根本没什么大不了的。

And he comes in to work on Monday morning, and it's no big deal.

就好像他只是坐在电脑前做自己的工作。

It's like he's just sitting at his computer doing his work.

当然，那位 Costco 的销售经理把特瑞格公司、罗布所做的事情告诉了他的老板，也就是那家 Costco 商店的经理。

Well, of course, the the sales manager at that Costco tells his boss who is the the the Costco the store manager what Traeger did, what Rob did.

然后这位经理又打电话给 Costco 总部的首席采购官，后者又联系了特瑞格的销售副总裁，最后销售副总裁告诉了特瑞格的首席执行官：你知道你们的员工做了什么吗？

And that guy then calls the head merchant at Costco corporate who then calls the VP of sales at Traeger who then tells the CEO of Traeger, did you know what your guy did?

这太棒了。

This is awesome.

这是一种难以置信的高水平服务。

This is an unbelievable level of quality of service.

杰里米·安德森的回应是：是的。

And Jeremy Anderson's response was, yes.

这种文化正在形成。

The culture is happening.

这是一个自己创造故事的人。

This is a guy who is building his own stories on his own.

对许多公司来说，文化就是他们所处的状态，以及人们如何协同工作。

For many companies, culture is, you know, where they are, how people work together.

如果你谈论的是在茶水间流传的故事，人们彼此传递这些故事，我不禁想，在后疫情时代，更多人远程办公、在家工作的情况下，

And if you're talking about stories circulating at the at the water cooler and people passing these stories on, I wonder in a post COVID world and where there's much more working remotely, working from home Yeah.

更多虚拟工作方式，会如何影响这些故事的效果及其传播范围。

Much more virtual work, how that affects the efficacy of these stories and just the distribution of these stories.

我最近刚参加完一家知名咨询公司管理层的一次会议。

So I I recently came from a meeting with a with a group of managers at a well known consulting firm.

我只是在倾听，听那些首席执行官和其他高级经理谈论他们面临的挑战。

And I was just listening, and I was listening to the CEOs and other senior managers talk about the challenges they're facing.

我离开时心想，这些人所说的其实是：我们的组织文化已经支离破碎。

And I came away saying, what these people were saying was was our organizational cultures are in tatters.

它们已经支离破碎。

They are in tatters.

它们正在瓦解。

They're falling apart.

我们有充分的理由，我不是在反对疫情期间在家工作。

We have for good reasons, I'm not saying I'm not, arguing against going home during COVID.

显然，那是必须的。

Obviously, that was a requirement.

但这非常困难。

But it's very difficult.

当所有人都在家工作时，有两件事特别困难。

Two things are very difficult where everyone's working from home.

第一件事是，很难创造新的故事，因为新的故事是在一群人面对真正考验他们旧有价值观的情境时产生的。

The first thing is it's very hard to build new stories because new stories are created when groups of individuals confront situations that actually test their old values.

因此，很难创造新的故事，也很难传播这些故事。

And so it's very hard to build new stories, and it's very hard to communicate those stories.

Zoom 和相关技术仍然是一个不错的媒介。

And Zoom and related technologies is still a cool medium.

我们无法读懂肢体语言。

We we can't read the body language.

我们在大型会议中看到的画面只有两英寸见方。

The picture we see is two inches square in a in a large meeting.

我们不了解当时的背景情况。

We don't know the context.

人们因为无法读懂肢体语言而互相打断对方。

People are interrupting each other because they can't read the body language.

然后他们还会上线又掉线，狗还跑来跑去。

And and then they're dropping off and coming on and and the dog's running through.

我的意思是，所有这些因素都让事情变得困难。

I mean, all these things make it difficult.

所以这使得视频会议成为一个很特别的媒介，难以传达讲述这些深刻故事时必须伴随的真实情感和情绪。

So it makes it a cool medium, makes it difficult to to get the really emotion and affect that has to be associated with with telling these stories that are really profound in many ways.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，基于这两点，我认为现在很多公司都在召员工返岗，说该重新聚在一起了，但人们对此有所抵触。

And so between those two things, I think a lot of firms now are calling people back in saying it's time to get back together and there's resistance to do that.

但其中一个考虑如何将他们召回的原因，是为了重建那些支离破碎的文化。

But one of one of the reasons to to think about how to bring them in is to recreate these culture the cultures that are in tatters.

你刚才谈到了情感，对吧，它在视频会议中无法传达。

Now you talked about the affect, right, not coming across in Yeah.

比如视频会议就是这样。

You know, video conference calls, for instance.

你的研究中提出的一项建议是，组织领导者需要具有表演性。

One of the recommendations that came from your research is that organizational leaders need to be theatrical.

你所说的‘表演性’是什么意思？

What what what do you mean by that?

是的。

Yeah.

这不是很惊人吗？

It's amazing, isn't it?

我觉得你刚才说得比我原本想表达的要更强烈一些。

I I think you've said it a little too little stronger than I would say.

结果发现，许多关于文化变革的故事都带有很强的戏剧性元素。

It turns out that many of the culture change stories that were created had a very theatrical element to them.

我会这么说。

That's how I would say it.

并不是所有的故事都如此。

Not all of them.

那么，什么是戏剧呢？

And what is theater?

这变化很大。

It varies a lot.

但让我给你举一个非常简短的例子。

But let me give you a really short example of one.

这是书中我最喜欢的故事之一。

This is one of my very favorite stories in the book.

这是我的朋友杰夫·罗迪克几年前担任Hyperion公司CEO时发生的事。

This is, by a friend of mine named Jeff Rodec, who was the CEO of Hyperion, a few years ago.

当时公司业绩一直不错，但市场却出现了大幅下滑。

This is during a time when the company had been doing fairly well, and there was a big downturn in the market.

他与一家咨询公司合作，制定了新的战略。

And, he develops the new strategy in, in consult with a consulting firm.

他们制定了一套新战略，并计划召开一次高层管理团队会议，讨论该战略及其影响，其中一项重大举措将是大规模裁员。

They put together a new strategy, and they're gonna have a big meeting with among the top management team to sort of talk about the strategy and its implications, one of which is, gonna be a pretty significant layoff.

他们正准备召开这次会议，结果发现他们的规划人员早已预订了旧金山一家非常豪华的酒店作为会议场地。

So they're getting ready to do that meeting, and it turns out that they had already, their planning people had already booked a a meeting room at a very, very fancy hotel in San Francisco.

杰夫说，我们绝不能在那家酒店召开会议，来决定裁掉公司很大一部分员工。

And and Jeff says, we cannot have a meeting to decide to lay off a very large percentage of our employees at that hotel.

是的。

Yeah.

这完全不合适。

It's just it's just not right.

他的助理说，对。

And his assistant says, yeah.

我们已经付了酒店的费用。

We we've already paid for the hotel.

于是他说，我们要换地方开会。

So he says, we're gonna change the meeting.

于是所有人都来参加会议，他们走进餐厅，一切如你所料。

So everyone shows up to the meeting, they and they can come into the dining room, and it's exactly what you'd expect.

桌上全是精美的瓷器和高脚杯。

It's all fancy china and stemware.

然后他们坐下吃晚餐。

And and then they sit down for dinner.

第一道菜是面包和水，只有面包和水。

And the first, the first course is, rolls and water, bread and water.

第二道菜端上来，也还是面包和水。

And then the second course comes out, and it's also just bread and water.

第三道菜上来，依旧是面包和水。

And then the third course, it's just bread and water.

然后他站起来说：听着，我们不配在这里享用这么丰盛的晚餐。

And then he stands up and says, listen, we don't deserve to celebrate with a fancy dinner here.

我们只配吃面包和水。

We only deserve bread and water.

这太有戏剧性了。

That is so theatrical.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

没错。

Right.

然后他谈到了战略和成本。

And and talks about the strategy then and the cost.

最后他结束会议时说：我将把这个会议室预订到一年后，到时候我们再真正庆祝一下。

And it says ends the meeting by saying, I'm gonna schedule this room this meeting room for one year from now, and we're gonna have a real celebrate before dinner.

我们配得上庆祝，因为今晚，我们只配吃面包和水。

We're gonna deserve it because tonight, all we deserve is bread and water.

我保证，那个房间里没有人会忘记这段经历，正是因为它的戏剧性。

I guarantee there's not a person in that room who forgets that experience because of of the theatricality.

我们知道那句老话：得人心者得天下。

We know the old saying hearts and minds.

对。

Right.

你如何创造既能打动人心又能说服理智的故事？

How do you create stories that that appeal to both?

因为这些故事会一直被传颂下去。

Because the stories, you know, will go on being told.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且它们也会不断演变。

And they evolve too.

但我们先从理性入手。

But we'll start with the head.

我们通常说头和心，但你提到的是心与思想。

We had heads and hearts is how we use it in the in the language, but you're about hearts and minds thing.

这让人想起越南战争，所以我对此有点担心。

That harkens back to Vietnam, so I'm a little worried about that.

显出我的年纪了。

Show my age

有一点。

a little bit.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

不。

No.