001. 与情感疏离者共事：从复杂性创伤后应激障碍的视角出发

你好，你好，你好，你好。

Hello, hello, hello, hello.

欢迎回到CPTSD医学播客。

And welcome back to the CPTSD Medicine podcast.

我叫坦纳。

My name is Tanner.

我是CPTSD医学的创始人，如果你是第一次听这个播客，第一次收听，我非常感激算法让我们相遇，或者你被推荐到了这个播客。

I'm the founder of CPTSD Medicine and this is if this is the first time you've ever listened to this podcast, you've ever tuned in, I am so grateful the algorithm connected us or you were given a referral to this podcast.

如果你从未见过我，也不了解我的故事，我曾是一名应用发展心理学的副教授。

If you've never met me before and you don't know my story, I'm a former associate professor of applied developmental psychology.

2020年，当我四十多岁时，我了解到复杂创伤是什么，从此我将生命投入到首要解决我自己的CPTSD，但几乎从一开始，我就感到一种召唤，想要与他人分享我所学到的东西，为其他童年创伤幸存者创造安全的空间，帮助我们这些如今必须在成年期应对复杂创伤以及伴随而来的各种关系混乱的人。

When I learned what complex trauma was in 2020, in my 40s, I dedicated my life to first and foremost resolving my own CPTSD, but pretty much from the very early days felt called to share what I was learning with others, to hold spaces with fellow childhood trauma survivors that we're now having to navigate treating our complex trauma in adulthood and all of the relational chaos that was connected to that.

我已经做了大约五年了，这期间充满了意义、成长、学习和各种收获。

I have, you know, been doing this for about five years now, and it's been so incredibly meaningful and so much growth and learning and all the things.

因此，你知道，在复杂创伤的疗愈和重建生活的过程中，会经历一些阶段，无论是在疗愈期间还是之后。

So, you know, there are these phases in complex trauma resolution and rebuilding your life during and after resolution.

有些阶段是充满激情、积极行动的重大举措。

And, you know, some of the phases are these exciting action oriented, big bold moves.

有些阶段则是关于卸下负担，它们沉重而充满悲伤。

Some are about unburdening, and they're heavy, and they're grief filled.

还有一些阶段则专注于稳定，只是照料好基础，留意生活中哪些地方需要调整和改变，还有哪些细节需要完善。我认为这一直是一个精炼的阶段，真正地尊重我本真的自我，让我的生活与那个通过CPTSD康复而得以显现、巩固和体现的真实自我相契合，并且大力加强那些从疗愈旅程开始前一直陪伴我至今的亲密关系。

And then some are really about stabilizing and just tending to the foundation, noticing what needs to shift and change and where there's refinements that are still required in your life and I think this has been a period of refinement, you know, really honoring who I am authentically, aligning my life so it supports that true self that has been able to be revealed and fortified and embodied through my CPTSD resolution and just really strengthening all my close proximity relationships that have been here from, you know, before the healing journey to now after the healing journey.

因此，这一直是我个人生活中一段意义深远、略显沉重但至关重要的阶段。

And so it's been a deeply meaningful, somewhat heavy, but important phase of my own personal life.

在专业方面，CPTSD Medicine康复方案于今年一月正式发布，这是在数年课程开发之后，经过数月持续写作的成果。

And, you know, professionally, the CPTSD Medicine Healing Protocol was published in January, you know, months and months of writing after years and years of curriculum development.

我计划本季制作大约十期节目，每期的核心内容都将聚焦于治疗师在治疗CPTSD患者时最感到挫败的方面。

What I have planned for this season is about 10 episodes, I believe, and the main feature of each of the episodes will be focused on something that therapists report as the most frustrating aspect of treating clients with CPTSD.

所以我想，不如直接问问：治疗师们到底怎么想？

So I thought it'd be great to just be like, Okay, what are therapists like?

你们到底在搞什么鬼，朋友们？

What the fucking fuck, people?

把你的事情理顺了。

Get your shit together.

所以我列出了这十个问题。

And so I have a list of 10 of those.

我希望能以一种轻松有趣的方式，让幸存者之间聊聊这些话题。

And I hope to have a little bit of lighthearted, fun survivor to survivor talking about these things.

但我也想分享我的观点。

But I also want to share my perspective.

所以如果你是一位聆听这个播客的治疗师，我希望这能帮助你更好地治疗患有复杂创伤的客户。

So if you're a therapist that listens to this podcast, I hope it will help you treat clients with complex trauma.

如果你的伴侣患有复杂创伤，我希望这能让你更具同理心，并提供一些更有效地将自我能量传递给他们的思路。

If you are someone whose partner has complex trauma, I hope it will instill more compassion and maybe some ideas of how to bridge self energy to them more effectively.

当然，如果你正在积极从复杂创伤中康复，并致力于永久性地解决它，我希望你能从中获得一些洞见，融入到你个人的疗愈工作中。

And of course, if you're a human in active recovery from complex trauma, working on permanently resolving it, I hope there'll be some insights for you that you can really build into your individual work.

然后，我将在播客结尾加入一个全新的趣味环节，只是为了在本季中玩一玩，看看效果如何。

And then I'm gonna end the podcast with a fun little new segment that I'm adding just to play around with the season and see how it goes.

我打算改为每周发布两集，持续两周，看看这种安排对我而言效果如何。

I'm turning towards a two week two episodes a week publication schedule just to see how that lands and how that goes for me.

更频繁地与你们沟通，缩短每集时长，让内容更浓缩，也让我们有更多时间彼此连接。

Just more regular communication with you, shorter episodes, more potent, just more time for us to connect with each other.

目前暂定的发布日期是周日和周五，我们就看看这种安排会怎样发展。

The tentative plan for the release dates are Sundays and Fridays, and so we'll just see how that goes for us.

好的。

All right.

治疗复杂创伤患者的治疗师最常遇到的投诉是，他们的来访者在理智上清楚自己总是选择情感上不可得的伴侣，却难以停止这种重复模式。

The number one frequent complaint from therapists that treat humans with complex trauma is their clients have a clear understanding of the pattern of choosing emotionally unavailable partners intellectually but struggle to stop repeating it.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

所以，选择情感上不可得的伴侣的模式。

So patterns of choosing emotionally unavailable partners.

好的。

Alright.

让我们深入探讨一下。

Let's dive into this.

当然，我们所有听的人心里都会想：是啊，显而易见，我见过我妹妹这么做。

So of course, all of us listening are like, yeah, duh, I've seen my sister do that.

我见过我弟弟这么做。

I've seen my brother do that.

我见过我的朋友这么做。

I've seen my friends do that.

我也这么做过。

I've done that.

没错，没错，确实如此，这确实是个问题。

Yes, yes, and yes, that is a thing.

但让我们稍微拆解一下，因为我觉得这正是为什么它只停留在我们的头脑中，而没有真正深入我们的身体，以一种深刻的具身方式帮助我们打破这种模式，真正触及它的本质。

But let's unpack this a little bit because I think this is why it stays in our mind and doesn't really kind of get into our bodies in deeply embodied way that would help us really break the pattern, you know, help really get to the truth of it.

然后我们才能从根源上着手，如何解开这些模式？

And then we're working at the root cause, how do we kind of unwind some of this patterning?

我认为问题在于‘情感上不可得’这个说法，因为从实际体验来看，这并不完全准确。

So I think the challenge is with the phrase emotionally unavailable because I don't think that's quite accurate from a lived experience.

我理解为什么治疗师和心理学这样描述，这确实有道理，因为它是一个宽泛的分类，但我认为这其实非常依赖于具体情境，而这也正是识别这种模式如此棘手的原因。

And I get why therapists talk about it that way, I get why psychology talks about it that way, like it does make sense because it is a broad categorization but I think it's really really circumstantial So I and I think this is what's so tricky about identifying the pattern.

我们都经历过这样的关系：当一切顺利时，感觉好到极致。

So we all have had relationships where when it's good, it's so good.

你知道，双方的化学反应是存在的。

You know, the chemistry is there.

我们有着相同的价值观和兴趣，知道如何一起享受乐趣。

We share the same values and interests, you know, we know how to have fun together.

所以，当只有我们两个人，没有障碍也没有挑战时，这个人真的特别有趣。

So it's like when it's just us and there's no obstacles and there's no challenges, this person is so fucking fun to be around.

他们情感上非常敏锐。

They are emotionally attuned.

我们能够谈论深层次的话题。

We are able to talk about deep things.

即使我正在经历危机或遇到困难，他们也会认真听我说。

Even when I'm maybe having a crisis or having trouble, they do listen to me.

他们确实会，你知道的，见证我所说的话。

They do, you know, witness what I'm saying.

因此，这让人看起来情感上是开放的，非常深刻，我们能进行最深入的对话，这段关系感觉是我经历过的最成熟、最真实的感情之一。

So that makes the person seem like, they're emotionally available, they're so deep, we have the deepest conversations like this relationship feels like one of the most you know sophisticated real relationships I've ever had.

但当情况发生变化，我们的伴侣面临某种威胁时，情况就不同了。

But then circumstances shift and now there's something threatening to our partner.

无论是需要改变、需要展现脆弱，还是收到了关于‘你没做好这件事’、‘这没满足我的需求’或‘这可能是你的盲点，你需要去改善’的反馈，都会让人感到自己让别人失望了，或没有达到标准。

Either change is required, vulnerability is required, feedback has been presented about like that you're not quite nailing this or this isn't meeting my needs or I think this might be a blind spot, think this might be something you have to work on and there's this sense that the human has disappointed people or is not living up to standard.

在这种情况下，我们就会看到伴侣完全退缩，变得情感上不可接近。

Now in that circumstance, this is where we see the partner completely withdraw and become emotionally unavailable.

现在他们需要提供一些东西，但他们不确定自己能否做到。

Now there's something required of them that they are not sure they can provide.

他们感到不堪重负，无法提供。

They're overwhelmed to provide.

他们不够无私，无法提供。

They're not selfless enough to provide.

他们不够坚定，缺乏内在能量来提供。

They're not you know, grounded enough in self energy to provide.

因此，这种威胁感如此强烈，令人极度不适。

And so that threat feels so intense and feels so uncomfortable.

他们退缩、抽离，撤回了支持。

They retreat, withdraw, take away their support.

如果你拥有这样的关系，你将始终陷入地狱般的循环，因为在我们最需要他人的时候——尤其是当我们在处理复杂创伤时——当我们因他人的行为而陷入情绪困扰时，我们最需要他人。

And if you have a relationship like that, you are always in a cycle of living hell because the time we need humans the most, all humans, but especially with humans resolving their complex trauma, we need humans the most when we are in emotional distress around somebody else's actions.

所以，我想让你看清我在这里区分的内容。

So I want you to see what I've distinguished here.

当我只是因为妈妈、妹妹、老板或自己而经历艰难时刻时，对方仍然可以情感上有所回应。

Someone can be emotionally available when I'm just having a tough moment about my mom, about my sister, about my boss, about myself.

这一切都局限于自我内部。

Like it's all self contained.

但当我因为伴侣的行为或我们关系中某些让我无法接受的事情而情绪低落时，他们的态度却完全不同，他们会变得情感上可亲近。

But then when I'm emotionally distressed about the actions of my partner or something is happening in our relationship that is not okay with me, that is handled very differently and they do become emotionally available.

因此，这种基于话题和内容的情感可及性变化，让身处这种模式中的人感到极度困惑。

So it's this circumstantial shift of emotional availability on the basis of the topic and the content we're covering that makes it so confusing to the human in that pattern.

因此，作为正在疗愈复杂创伤的人类，我们真正需要做的是：留意情感可及性的变化、在表达脆弱时的能力、在收到反馈时保持开放心态的能力，以及在标准未被满足时保持开放思维的能力，并觉察情感可及性在何时、何地被给予或拒绝。

So what we really need to do as humans resolving our complex trauma is to notice shifts in emotional availability, in the ability to be vulnerable, in the ability to keep an open heart when feedback is being presented, in like just an open mind when a standard hasn't been met, and just noticing when and where emotional availability is given and granted or withheld and avoided.

如果你能开始注意到你的伴侣在面对脆弱时感到挣扎。

And if you can start to notice that your partner is struggling with vulnerability.

当出错时，错误的感觉太过重大。

Mistakes feel too high stakes when something is wrong.

我早已习惯因为这些错误而被羞辱、被嘲笑或被孤立，当你给我反馈，而这些反馈让我那些保护性部分感到极度威胁时，和你继续对话就像生死攸关，当你要求我放下防御、倾听这些艰难的事情时，那种感觉太糟糕了。

I'm so used to being shamed for that or mocked for that or isolated for that like it feels like life or death to stay in that conversation with you when you're giving me feedback that feels so threatening to my protective parts, feels so awful when you're asking me to be undefended and hear tough things.

所以，我认为我们真正需要帮助的是这种情境性因素，还有两件小事。

So it's really the circumstantial piece that I think we need help with And I two quick things.

首先，要辨别情感可及性所受的情境影响。

So, you know, first would be discern situational influences on emotional availability.

这会是我最想收集数据的第一件事。

That'd be, like, the first thing I'd wanna collect data on.

你知道，我以前是个研究员。

You know, I'm a former researcher.

我喜欢收集各种数据。

I like to collect data on things.

所以别以为我在开场白里提到过我的背景，不过没关系。

So don't think I said that in the intro, like my background, but that's okay.

我们现在太深入这个话题了。

We're too into the episode now.

我会记得下次告诉新来的听众我的培训和背景。

I'll remember to do it next time, those of you that are new, to tell you what my training is and my background.

但作为一名前研究员，拥有自己的数据真的很重要，这样我们才能基于现实或观察开展工作，而这有助于我们理解模式。

But as a former researcher, like, that really matters, have our own data so we're working from, you know, reality or observation, and then that helps us understand the patterning.

但我觉得第二点和第三点，我想给你的实用建议是，你要试着去建立一种感觉：在我面前，脆弱是安全的。

But I think second and third, some practical advice I would give you is that, you know, I would really see if you can bridge it's safe to be vulnerable with me.

因此，这需要你搭建一些支持框架，建立一种与伴侣沟通的方式，作为保持情感联结的桥梁。

And so this is going to require you building some scaffolding, building a way of meeting your partner as a bridge to stay emotionally available to you.

比如，我真的很理解，我接下来要说的话，可能会让你觉得我在严厉批评你，或者我不再爱你了，又或者你做错了什么，但事实并非如此。

So things like, I really do understand that what I'm going to say, you know, might land in a way that feels I'm being super critical or I don't love you anymore or, you know, you've done something really wrong, but that's not it.

我知道，我们都在尽力而为，或者在不断学习中前行，无论你如何真诚表达，但我想说的是，我只是希望能向你坦诚分享我内心的想法，也希望你能以开放的心态接纳，不要现在就把它看得太个人化。

Like, I get, know, we all are trying our best or we're, you know, learning as we go, you know, whatever you can authentically say, but be like, but, you know, I just want to be able to share what's on my heart and mind openly with you and I was wondering if you can just receive it with an open heart and not take it so personally right now.

这并不是关于你这个人，而是关于我们两个人作为一个团队，共同摸索如何作为伴侣相处，让我们都能感受到支持。

This isn't about you as a person, this is about us together as a team trying to sort out how we do things as a couple so that we both feel supported.

我从不希望让你觉得自己是个失败者，或者觉得你让我失望，或者你没有达到我的期望，但同时，我也不会假装或忽视真实发生的事情。

I never want to make you feel like a failure or like you're disappointing me or like you're not meeting the mark and I also don't want to pretend or ignore what's actually happening.

我希望能够与你进行真诚、开放、踏实的对话，一起解决问题，让我们彼此感到亲近，让对话的结果是增强联结，而不是让你觉得你在一个阵营，我在另一个阵营。

I want to be able to have honest, open, grounded conversations with you where we can work through things together and we both feel close that the result of the conversation is enhanced connectedness not a sense of you're on one team, I'm on another team.

所以，我认为关键在于真正地搭建起一种安全感，让我们能持续进行这种具有挑战性的对话。

So I think it's this idea of just really really bridging it's safe to stay in this challenging conversation.

我不会压倒你或控制你。

I'm not gonna overpower you or dominate you.

我不会羞辱你，也不会责怪你。

I'm not gonna shame you or blame you.

我会就在这里陪着你，我们一起制定行动计划，或分享我们各自的经历。

I'm just gonna stay right here with you as we co create an action plan or we share what's happening to us.

但当你这样与伴侣建立连接时，你必须确保自己所带入的内容是纯粹无杂质的。

But the key is when you're bridging to a partner like that, you got to be squeaky clean about what you're bringing.

如果你有未解决的童年创伤，这不仅仅是你伴侣当下的行为，而是伴侣的行为触发了你的依恋创伤、受害情绪、自身的生存模式，你把这些能量带入了交流和反馈中，这种强烈的能量会让伴侣的系统察觉到，甚至无意识地触发他们，于是你们又陷入了一种自童年以来就反复上演的旧有模式，很难摆脱。

If you have unresolved childhood trauma and it's not just what's happening with your partner but it's what's happening with your partner that's triggered attachment woundings and you know hurt victim energy, your own survival patterning and you're bringing that energy into the exchange and into the feedback and there's this kind of intensity to it there's this trauma energy to it that's gonna you know, your partner's system is gonna pick up on that and that's gonna be even unconsciously triggering to them and then you're kind of in this old patterned, old dance that both of you have been doing since childhood that's hard to get out of.

所以，即使你使用了我刚刚提到的言辞和沟通结构，你也不能因此免责。

So it's not that you're off the hook if you're using the words and the communication structures I just suggested.

这不仅仅是你做了什么。

It's not just what you do.

而是你在做这些事时所携带的能量。

It's the energy that you're running as you do it.

这就是我对选择情感上不可得伴侣的模式的见解。

So that's my teaching on patterns of choosing emotionally unavailable partners.

希望这些内容对你们有帮助。

Hopefully, it has been helpful.

现在进入本播客的最后一个部分。

Now for the final segment of this podcast.

这是我特别想发的标题党内容，因为我超爱制作这种吸引眼球的内容，但我现在在Instagram上已经不这么做了。

This is the clickbait content I would love to be able to post because I love creating clickbaity content, but I don't really do it anymore on Instagram.

感觉有点不太得体。

Feels a little unseemly.

我不确定。

I don't know.

感觉像是在博取廉价的关注，但我其实非常支持标题党的创作方式。

It feels like cheap attention, but I am all for clickbait creation.

所以我把它移到了播客里。

So I moved it to the podcast.

我这里有一份最吸引眼球的Instagram标题清单，或者你们平时获取社交媒体内容的其他平台上的标题。

So what I have is I have a list of the most clickbaity Instagram headlines or, you know, wherever you get your social media fix from.

我将逐个选取，当场和你们一起创作内容，现在是直播。

And I'm just going to take one at a time, and I'm going to create the content on the spot with you here at Live.

我列表上的第一个是：关于这个话题，没人告诉过你的事情。

So the first one I have on my list is here's what no one tells you about topic.

内容创作者应该填入一个话题。

So content creators are supposed to fill in a topic.

关于复杂创伤，没人告诉过你的事情，我就选这个了。

Here's what no one tells you about I'll just do complex trauma.

我们就用这个吧。

Let's just go with that.

这个话题很大，但咱们看看。

It's huge, but let's see.

关于复杂创伤，没人告诉过你的事情。

Here's what no one tells you about complex trauma.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我想说的是，没人告诉你，这一切都是能量。

So what I would say is no one tells you it's all energy.

在我看来，经过五年的工作，与负担系统和复杂创伤共处，亲身经历CPTSD的疗愈过程，这确实全都是能量。

It literally is all energy, in my opinion, after doing this work for five years and working with burden systems and complex trauma, walking myself through CPTSD resolution.

因为当你关注它的能量层面时，你关注的就是创伤能量。

Like, that's the easiest way to think about it because when we're focused on the energetics of it, we're focused on trauma energies.

我正在运行哪些能量？它们如何在我的关系场中显现？

Which ones am I running and how do they show up in my relational field?

我是否容易吸收创伤能量？

Am I susceptible to absorbing trauma energies or not?

我的自我能量有多强大和纯净？

And how potent and pure is my self energy?

我知道如何触及它吗？

Do I know how to access it?

我有净化它吗？

Have I purified it?

我能否增强它？

And can I amplify it?

对我来说，这始终是创伤能量之间的平衡。

And it's always to me that balance between trauma energies.

如果我能量中心和信息处理中心运行的主要是创伤能量，那么我就是一个被创伤驱动的人。

If there's more trauma energies that I'm running through my energy centers and my information processing centers, I'm a trauma driven human.

如果我信息处理中心和能量中心运行的主要是自我能量，那么我就是由自我主导或真实自我引领着我的身体。

If there's more self energy that's running in my information processing centers and my energy centers, then I am self led or true self leading my physical form.

所以我认为一切皆是能量，这种能量驱动着我们的行为、思想和信念。

And so I think it's all energy, and that energy that fuels our actions, fuels our thoughts, and fuels our belief.

我知道并不是每个人都能接受这一点，十年前的我可能也接受不了。

Now I know that doesn't land with everyone, and it wouldn't have probably landed with me ten years ago.

但既然我已经做了这项工作并深陷其中，这对我来说就是真相。

But now that I've done this work and I've been in it, that's just it for me.

因此，这就是我想说的关于复杂创伤的内容，没有人告诉过你这些。

And so that's what I would say about complex trauma, and no one tells you about it.

好的。

Alright.

我非常爱你们所有人。

Well, I love you all so much.

能回来录制播客、重新凝聚我们的社群，真是太开心了。

How much fun to be back on the podcast recording episodes, kind of regathering our community.

所以我制作了一个三段视频的引导体验。

So I created a three video guided experience.

你可以在节目笔记中看到链接。

You're going to see the link in the show notes.

如果你刚刚被甩了，这个体验是为你准备的。

This is for you if you've just been left.

如果你刚刚被分手，有人刚刚离开你，一段关系刚刚结束，而你正困惑为什么这样的事会发生在你身上，并在寻找答案，那么这个三段视频的引导体验就是为你设计的。

So if you've just been broken up with, if someone just left you, if a relationship just ended and you are wondering why this is happening to you and you're seeking answers about that, this three video guided experience is for you.

报名链接在节目笔记中。

The link to opt in is in the show notes.

好了，我们迎来了新的季度，CPTSD Medicine播客。

Well, we are off with a new season, the CPTSD Medicine podcast.

我超级超级爱你们。

I love you so fucking much.

我会在所有地方见到你们。

I will see you in all the places.

暂时再见。

Bye for now.