坦白

原因在于，只要你具备胜任这份工作的能力，当你这样展现一部分真实的自己时，第一，你会更加突出。

And the reason is that provided you're qualified for the job, if you show a bit of yourself like that, one, you stand out more.

你会让人记得更深刻。

You're more memorable.

第二，这对你也有帮助。

And two, it helps you.

你可以观察他们如何回应你，从而更好地了解他们的企业文化，以及你的个性是否与之契合。

You can see how they respond to you, and it helps you get a sense of their culture and whether your personality fits.

你在那儿能茁壮成长吗？

Are you going to thrive there?

这是一次很好的小测试。

That's good little test.

莱斯利，自我披露的另一个优势是，它能促使他人也做出相应的自我披露。

One other advantage of self disclosure, Leslie, is that it can prompt other people to disclose things in response.

谈谈自我披露的互惠性吧。

Talk about this reciprocal nature of self disclosure.

是的。

Yes.

所以当有人向你敞开心扉，说出一些略显脆弱的内容时，我几乎觉得这是一种本能。

So when someone opens up to you, says something slightly vulnerable, I'm I'm almost comfortable with saying it's an instinct.

你知道，这个词有点重。

You know, that's a heavy word.

但这是我们人类非常自然的一种行为——相互回应，以同样的方式反应。

But it's it's a very natural thing we humans do is to reciprocate, to respond in kind.

这意味着我们往往会有一种冲动，也回以类似敏感程度的自我披露。

And what that means is that we we tend to feel the urge to also reveal something of similar sensitivity back.

这种冲动如此强烈，我的一位同事杨米·穆恩做了一项引人入胜的研究。

So strong is this urge that a colleague of mine, Young Mi Moon, has done a fascinating study.

她几年前做的，但这是那种经久不衰的发现：她基本上证明了，这种互惠的冲动如此强烈，以至于我们甚至会对无生命的物体——比如电脑——这样做。

She did it a while back, but it's one of these kinda evergreen findings where she she basically showed that the urge to reciprocate is so strong that we even do it with inanimate objects with computers.

所以她用了一台电脑。

So she had a computer.

她让参与者坐在电脑前，电脑输出的文字甚至没有用‘我’这个词。

She had participants sitting at a computer, and the computer output the text that said it didn't even say I.

电脑根本没有试图把自己拟人化。

It wasn't even trying to personify itself.

它只是说：这台电脑很少发挥出全部潜能。

It just said, this computer rarely reaches its full potential.

它很少能用满整个硬盘空间之类的，这有点像是电脑在向你透露心事。

It rarely gets to use its full hard drive or something like that, which is kinda like the computer's disclosing to you.

对吧？

Right?

然后她进行了测量，发现人们随后向电脑倾诉了一些事情，比如：哇。

And so then they measured, and people then revealed back to the computer Wow.

他们倾诉了自己正在挣扎的事情，或者感觉自己没有充分发挥潜力的地方。

About something that they were struggling with or something a way that they feel they hadn't reached their full potential.

这真的太惊人了。

It's really amazing.

我知道你有一个课堂练习，莱斯利，你让学生们互相提问。

I understand that you conduct a classroom exercise, Leslie, where you ask students to pose questions to one another.

你在安排这个练习时有一个巧妙的设计。

There's a twist in the way that you set up the exercise.

告诉我你具体怎么做，以及你发现了什么。

Tell me what you do and and what you find.

是的。

Yes.

我把教室分成两组。

So I divide the room into two.

我对所有人说：一会儿你们每个人将和旁边的人讨论一个问题，讨论几分钟。

And I say to everyone, in a moment, you're going to have a question that you're gonna talk about for a few minutes with the person next to you.

但我只向每组透露一个问题。

But I only reveal one question to each group.

所以一组得到的问题是：你最喜欢工作中的哪一点？

So one group gets the question, what do you like about your job?

比如，一个超级无聊的问题。

Like, super boring question.

另一组人，而第一组人并不知道，得到的问题是：你上一次哭是什么时候？

The other group, unbeknownst to the first group, gets the question, when is the last time you cried?

通常，当我给出这个问题时，会有人发出明显的叹气声。

And usually, when I give that question out, someone's gonna make an audible groan.

人们根本不想谈论自己上一次哭是什么时候。

Like, people do not want to talk about the last time they cried.

事实上，我的好朋友艾莉森·布鲁克斯做了很多关于对话和话题的研究，她让人们对话题进行排序，比如哪些话题你愿意聊，哪些不愿意。

In fact, my bestie, Allison Brooks, has done, she does lots of work on conversation and topics, and she's gotten people to rank or order, like, what topics do you want to talk about versus not.

而谈论‘你上一次哭是什么时候’这个话题，总是排在最后一位。

And talking about the last time you cried consistently ranks dead last.

但当我以教授的身份强制要求全班讨论这个话题时，反而是他们最兴奋。

And yet, when I force people by the powers bestowed on me as a professor, when I force the class to talk about it, they're the ones that are bubbling.

他们反而变得快乐、激动、充满兴趣，甚至被深深打动。

They're the ones that are actually joyful and excited and interested and moved.

你能感受到教室里的氛围。

You can feel it in the classroom.

一边的能量非常充沛，另一边却相当平淡。

The energy on one side is amazing, and the other side is pretty flat.

在某种程度上，这反映了那个悖论，对吧，莱斯利？我们总是如此犹豫，不愿分享。

And in some ways, it speaks to the paradox, right, Leslie, which is that in some ways, we, we hesitate so much to share.

但一旦我们开始这么做，就会发现其中有许多令人愉悦的方面。

But the moment we start to do it, there's so many aspects of it that feel good.

没错。

Exactly.

这就是为什么我认为关键在于，你不能只谈论分享。

And that's why I think a key thing is you can't just talk about sharing.

你必须亲身去做，因为眼见为实。

You gotta do it because seeing is believing.

就像，行动才能让人相信。

Like, doing it is believing.

你必须亲身体验到这些好处，才能真正被其中的可能性吸引。

You gotta feel the benefits in order to kinda get hooked on the possibilities.

你刚才提到了你的同事艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯。

You mentioned your colleague, Alison Woodbrooks a second ago.

我们以前曾邀请过艾莉森做《隐性思维》节目。

We had, Alison on Hidden Brain some time ago.

你和艾莉森当然是朋友，但你们最近彼此做了一次重要的坦白。

You and Alison, of course, are friends, but the two of you recently made a significant disclosure to one another.

这次坦白的内容是什么？

What was this disclosure?

是的。

Yeah.

一想到这件事，我就起鸡皮疙瘩。

So I'm getting goosebumps thinking about this.

我们曾邀请一位学者来我们的实验室分享他的研究，而他的研究恰好是关于竞争和嫉妒的。

So we had invited a scholar to come to talk to our lab about his research, and it happened to be about rivalry and envy.

他正在探讨让人产生竞争感的因素。

And he was going through the things that cause people to feel rivalry with each other.

比如相似性、竞争性、追求成就和天赋。

And it was like similarity, competitiveness, achievement oriented, talent.

我和艾莉森在整个过程中都目不转睛地听着。

And Alison and I are just baking eyes throughout the whole thing.

这说的就是我们。

Like, this is us.

这说的就是我们。

This is us.

于是，当我们走回办公室时，她主动提起了这个话题，因为正如我所说，她是一位世界级的交谈高手。

And so as we walk back to our offices, she broaches the topic because she's, as I said, world class conversationalist.

她说：‘我们为什么不是竞争对手呢？'

She says, why aren't we rivals?

这真是一个绝佳的切入话题。

Which was an amazing entryway in.

对吧？

Right?

因为她可以说‘我们是对手吗？’

Because the way she said she could have said, are we rivals?

感觉我们就是对手。

It feels like we're rivals.

但她却问：‘我们为什么不是对手？’

But she framed it as, why aren't we rivals?

然后我们就展开了一场很棒的对话，我说，是的。

And and then we just had this wonderful conversation about how you know, I said, yeah.

我承认，有时候我确实会对你感到一点嫉妒。

I admit that sometimes I do feel a bit envious of you.

更多是钦佩，但有时也是嫉妒。

It's mostly admiration, but sometimes it's envy.

她说，是的。

And she said, yeah.

我明白你的意思。

I hear you.

有时候我也有这种感觉，以她那种冷静如冰、温暖如毛衣的方式，还带着点漫不经心。

Sometimes I feel that way too, in this kinda cool as a cucumber, warm as a sweater way, which is her way, and kinda nonchalant too.

是的。

Yeah.

我有时候也有这种感觉。

I feel that way too sometimes.

但这反而让我们更加亲近了。

But it just brought us so much closer.

再说，承认这种感觉其实有点不合时宜，毕竟她是我最好的朋友之一。

The again, like, admitting this thing that's that's kind of a faux pas to feel envy from about like, she's one of my very best friends.

而且

And

这让我们更加亲密了。

that really brought us even closer.

而且，这真正表明了，即使你与某人关系亲密，一个真实的时刻、一个脆弱的时刻，反而能让你更加亲近。

And and it's truly an indicator of how even when you're close with someone, a moment of authenticity, a moment of vulnerability can actually bring you even closer.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Completely.

坦露我们内心真实的想法意味着冒险。

Revealing what's really on our minds means taking a chance.

我们可能会被嘲笑，被鄙视，但也可能因此与在乎的人更加亲近。

We might be laughed at, we might be scorned, or we might find ourselves drawn closer to the people we care about.

稍后回来，我们将提供关于如何进行巧妙自我披露的建议。

When we come back, advice on how to engage in skillful self disclosure.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

你能想到生活中某次你向别人坦白了一个秘密的时刻吗？

Can you think of a time in your life when you came clean about a secret to someone else?

他们是怎么回应的？你之后感觉如何？

How did they respond, and how did you feel afterwards?

如果你愿意向《隐藏的思维》的听众分享你的个人故事，或者对自我隐藏与自我披露有任何问题或评论，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you are willing to share your personal story with a Hidden Brain audience, or have a question or comment about self concealment and self disclosure, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

请将文件发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：secrets。

Use the subject line secrets.

再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

心理学家莱斯利·约翰是《过度分享的被低估的力量》一书的作者。

Psychologist Leslie John is the author of The Underrated Power of Oversharing.

莱斯利，这位你熟知的康奈尔大学的社会科学家，曾经发布过一份非常独特的简历。

Leslie, a social scientist you know at Cornell University, once posted a very unusual resume.

它并不是一份列出重要工作和辉煌出版物的清单。

It wasn't a list of important jobs and fancy publications.

他称它为‘失败履历’。

He called it a CV of failures.

给我讲讲他的故事。

Tell me his story.

是的。

Yeah.

这很酷。

This is cool.

所以他做的是发布了一份简历，不仅列出了他发表过的知名期刊和所有成就，还包含了所有的失败经历。

So what he did was he posted a CV that included not just all the fancy journals he had published in and all of his accomplishments, but also the failures.

对于那些最终发表的期刊文章，他还注明了曾经拒绝过这些文章的其他投稿地点。

So for the journal articles that ended up being published, he also indicated the places that had rejected that article, that writing first.

这非常反常。

And this is highly anomalous.

对吧？

Right?

我们从不会在简历中写失败经历，但他这么做了。

We never put failures in a CV, but he did.

这真的非常好，因为我觉得它对年轻学者产生了很好的影响，让他们不再感到孤单。

And it was really wonderful because I think it really had a wonderful effect on more junior scholars to not feel so alone.

因为，你知道，当你是一名年轻学者时，你看不到那些失败的实验，也看不到所有被拒的投稿。

Because, you know, when you're a junior scholar, you don't see all the things, the failed experiments, and you don't see all the failed journal submissions.

所以看到一位非常成功的人也有过失败，实际上是非常鼓舞人心的。

And so to see that someone who is super successful also has failed is really motivating, actually.

如果你陷入低谷，你会想，哦，他也会失败。

If you're in a rut, you think, oh, well, he failed too.

同样地，有一位名叫梅兰妮·斯蒂芬的女人。

In a similar way, there's a woman by the name of, Melanie Stephane.

我认为她是一位神经科学家，有一天她发现自己的研究经费申请被拒了。

I think she's a neuroscientist, and she found out one day that her grant was rejected.

但就在同一天，那位超级著名的足球运动员罗纳尔迪尼奥被宣布未能入选世界杯阵容。

But on that same day, the super famous football player, soccer player, Ronaldinho, he it was announced that he didn't make the World Cup team.

对她来说，她想到的是，我和罗纳尔迪尼奥其实是一样的。

And so for her, what she thought was, oh, I'm just like Ronaldinho.

连罗纳尔迪尼奥也会有时失败，这让她振作了起来。

Even Ronaldinho fails sometimes, and it perked her up.

换句话说，这让我们想到了经济学家所说的披露所带来的正面外部性。

I mean, some ways, this brings us to what an economist might call a positive externality of disclosure.

当有人公开自己的失败经历时，其他人谈论自己的困难似乎也变得更容易了。

You know, when someone posts a CV of failures, it almost becomes easier for everyone else to talk about their challenges.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

然而，我认为再次强调，读懂气氛、了解自己所处的环境和背景非常重要。

However, I think there's it's really important, again, to read the room and understand where you are and understand what context you're in.

所以这个简历的例子，是针对那些已经在学术界取得成就的人。

So the CV example, this is someone who has already made it in academia.

对吧？

Right?

他已经拥有一份很棒的工作。

He's already got a great job.

他已经是教授了。

He's already a professor.

我不会建议正在进入求职市场的博士生这样做。

I would not advise a doctoral candidate going on the rookie job market.

我不建议他们这么做，因为你的能力在这种情况下仍存在疑问。

I would not advise them to do this because your competence is kinda still in question there.

对于已经拥有较高地位的人来说，这样做尤其有效且风险更低。

It's particularly effective and and less risky for someone who is already high status to do this.

我想问问你，在你的生活中，有没有遇到过一些关于披露的困境，莱斯利？

I want to ask you about a couple of disclosure dilemmas that you've experienced in your own life, Leslie.

你最近就经历了一个涉及谁应获得联合项目署名权的困境。

You recently walked through one that involved who received credit for a joint project.

跟我讲讲当时发生了什么。

Tell me the story of what happened.

是的。

Yes.

我当时正在和一群合著者合作，这是我工作中最令人愉快的部分之一，因为我可以自己选择合作对象。

So I was working with a team of coauthors, which is one of the great joys of my job is I get to choose who I work with.

我们需要为即将发表的论文填写一些表格。

And we had to fill out some paperwork for the article we were publishing.

其中一项是必须注明每位作者在不同方面所占的贡献比例，其中之一就是创意生成。

And one of the things was you had to write down which author gets the lion's share of credit for different aspects, one of them being idea generation.

我从一位合著者那里收到了一份填好的表格草稿，看到她在这项‘创意’部分写的是‘所有作者贡献均等’时，我的心一下子沉了下去。

And I had gotten a draft of the filled out form from a coauthor, and my heart kinda sank when I got it Because she had written for the idea part, she said, equal equal contribution, all authors.

这让我感到很受伤，因为我清楚这个创意的来源。

And that that stung for me because I knew where the idea had come from.

我知道它来自我，因为我清楚我们这篇论文所基于的那个具体而真实的现实动因，那是我亲身经历过的。

I knew that it had come from me because I I knew the specific motivating real world thing that we built this paper on, which is something I had experienced.

我知道这个核心想法是我提出的，这真的让我很困扰。

And so I knew that I had the kernel, and that really bothered me.

但你知道，我本能的反应是保持沉默，不惹麻烦，因为我真的很喜欢我的合著者们，也很珍惜我们之间的关系。

But, you know, my natural thing to do here would be to not say anything, would be to not rock the boat because, you know, I really love my coauthors, and I value our relationship.

我不希望他们感到难过。

And I don't want them to feel bad.

我不希望他们觉得我小心眼。

I don't want them to think I'm petty.

没人会看这些，这些愚蠢的署名排序。

Nobody's gonna read this, this the stupid credit lines.

反正也不重要。

Like, it doesn't matter.

就随它去吧。

Just go with it.

但我一直在写一本关于披露困境以及如何思考这些问题的书。

But, you know, I have been writing a book on disclosure dilemmas and how to think through them.

所以我觉得这对我来说是个不错的练习。

So I thought this is a good exercise for me.

当我们考虑是否要披露某事时，我们常常出错，其中一个被忽视的方面是隐瞒的风险。

And one of the ways we go wrong when we consider whether to reveal something, One of the things that we tend to overlook is the the risks of concealing.

我意识到，在这些决定中真正突出的是披露的风险。

I realized that what's really salient in these decisions is the risks of revealing.

对吧？

Right?

我刚才说的那些不透露的原因，是我怕他们觉得我小心眼。

What I just said, reasons why I would not reveal is I don't want them to think I'm petty.

我不希望他们感到难过。

I don't want them to feel bad.

这些都是透露所带来的风险。

Those are all risks of revealing.

主动作为的过错，就是透露的风险。

Sins of commission, risks of revealing.

但我们从不思考的是，隐瞒会带来什么风险？

But what we don't think about are what are the risks of holding back?

我们实际上根本不会去想这些。

We don't actually think about those.

所以如果我强迫自己去思考这些，我会想，我可能会反复琢磨，然后多年后积攒出怨恨。

And so if I forced myself to think about them, I thought, well, I might ruminate and then just have resentment potentially bubble up over the years.

然后我想，好吧。

And then I thought, okay.

我还想到一件事，我通常不会考虑的是：如果我表达出想法，并且找到一种温和的方式来说出来，会有什么好处？

And what about something I also don't usually consider is the benefits of speaking my mind if I do it and I figure out a nice way to say it?

如果我说出原因，如果我告诉他们这些，其中一个好处可能是，他们会更了解我。

Well, if I say the benefits, if I say why, if I tell them this, one of the benefits might be, they will know me better.

他们会知道我真的很在意想法，而这对我来说很重要。

They will know that I really care about ideas, and that's important to me.

然后，当他们了解真实的我时，我会因此感到开心。

And then that will make me happy with them knowing that they know me.

对吧？

Right?

因为被真正理解的滋味，是如此深刻地令人满足。

Because feeling known for who you are is just so deeply rewarding.

于是，我开始看到事情的另一面，以至于我最终真的和他们谈了这件事，结果非常好。

So then I started to see see kinda the other side of it, so much so that I actually ended up having a conversation about it, and and it went just fine.

所以他们没觉得你小气吗？

So did they not feel like you were being petty?

我的意思是，你的担忧完全没道理吗？

I mean, your your were your concerns completely unfounded?

即使他们可能这么想，也没有表现出来，但我根本没感觉到这一点。

So they didn't show it if they may have thought it, but I didn't I didn't read that at all.

事实上，其中一个人在我说话的时候都流泪了。

In fact, one of them, like, teared up, as I was saying.

我能感觉到她真的很难过。

I could tell she felt really badly.

然后我当然说，我爱你，没关系的。

And then I, of course, said, like, I love you, and it's fine.

你其实做了一件很棒的事。

And it's like, you were doing a great thing.

这正是我喜欢和你合作的原因，因为我们不会过分争功或斤斤计较。

We this is why I love collaborating with you because we're not we're not excessively credit seeking or petty.

这正是它如此美妙的原因。

That's what makes it wonderful.

它让我们更亲近了。

It brought us closer.

你可以看到，当我谈论这件事时，我甚至有点激动，但这是积极的激动。

You can see the way I'm even getting kind of worked up in a good way by talking about it.

有趣的是，当你分享这些事情时，你也会更了解与你共事的人。

Interestingly, when you share these things, it also tells you more about the people you're working with.

这极大地肯定了我们之间的合作。

So this was so affirming of our of our collaborations together.

我曾经和另一个团队有过类似的对话，其中一位合著者表现得非常糟糕，她相当具有攻击性和愤怒。

I've had this conversation, a similar one with another group, where one of the coauthors was just just it went really badly, and she was kind of aggressive and angry.

这不仅仅是当时自然的防御反应，而是持续了很长时间。

And and it wasn't just a natural defensiveness in the moment, but it it kinda persisted.

这也给了我很多启发。

And and that was also informative.

对吧？

Right?

因为当人们得到令人失望的消息时，他们的真面目就会暴露出来。

Because people's true colors really show when they're in when they get disappointing information.

我想听你讲另一个故事，莱斯利。

I want you to tell me another story, Leslie.

这个故事影响更大。

This one was more consequential.

它关于你几年前单身时遇到的一个年轻人。

It had to do with a young man you met some years ago when you were single.

他叫科林。

His name was Colin.

你们是怎么认识的？这段关系又是如何发展的？

How did you meet and how did that relationship unfold?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们是以最浪漫的方式相遇的，我。

So we met in the most romantic of ways, I.

呃，Tinder。

E, Tinder.

这很有趣，因为你知道，我当时三十多岁，是一名教授，我居然在最像约炮软件的平台上遇见了他，真是讽刺。

We it's funny because I, you know, I was in my thirties, professing, and I it's very ironic that I met him on, like, the most hookup y app.

我当时并不是在找长期伴侣，但我选择Tinder是因为它的隐私设置特别好——当时它是唯一一个能让我设置成只有我先对他右滑，他才能看到我的应用，因为我真的害怕有MBA学生在上面看到我。

I was not I was looking for a long term partner, but the reason I chose Tinder was because it had amazing privacy settings because at the time, it was the only app where I could set it up so a guy would only see me if I had swiped right on him because I just lived in fear of, an MBA student seeing me on this.

对吧？

Right?

我住在哈佛广场。

I lived in Harvard Square.

所以我不能让我的学生看到我。

So I'm like, I can't I can't have my students seeing me.

这就是我用Tinder的原因。

So that's why I was on Tinder.

我总觉得自己需要稍微解释一下。

I always feel the need to justify it a bit.

但不管怎样，我们是在Tinder上认识的，然后开始约会，一切都非常美好。

But, anyways, I, so we found each other on Tinder, and we started dating, and it was wonderful.

我们去棕榈泉度过了一个浪漫的周末，我当时真的感受到了浓浓的爱意。

And we went on this romantic weekend to Palm Springs, and I I just I was really feeling love vibes.

但我太害羞、太害怕了，各种原因让我没能说出口。

But I was too shy, scared, all of these things to say it.

所以我们待在房间里时，我想试着开启一段关系的定义对话。

And so we were in our our room, and I said, I think it was like the trying to bring up the relationship definition conversation.

我说：‘那么，我们算是什么关系呢？’

I said, oh, so so what are we?

我想我当时就是这么说的。

I think is what I said.

他却说：‘哦，我玩得特别开心’之类的。

And he's like, oh, I'm having a lot of fun or something like that.

那感觉就像是我被堵回来了。

That just it felt like I was shut down.

因此，他给我的回应——或者说根本没有回应——让我非常失望。

And so that was a very disappointing response slash nonresponse that I got from him.

于是我开始怀疑他是否情感上足够成熟。

And so I started to feel like question whether he was emotionally available.

但过了一会儿，他反而率先小心翼翼地向我表白了爱意。

But then a little while later, he actually was the first to announce, albeit guardedly, his love for me.

他说：我觉得我爱上你了。

He said, I think I love you.

我说：我也爱你。

And I said, me you too.

我也爱你？

Me you too?

哇。

Wah.

哇。

Wah.

是的。

Yeah.

我也是。

Me you too.

哇，哇。

Wah, wah.

因为我觉得，尽管我有那种感觉，却还是说不出那个字。

Because I think I couldn't say the l word even though I was feeling that.

我只是很难表达出来。

I just had a hard time expressing it.

那就是其中一个时刻，我突然脱口而出：我也是。

And it was one of these moments I just kind of blurted out, me, you too.

而那种情况一旦说了，就再也回不去了。

And you can never go back from that.

你不能就这样说，哦，是的。

You can't just then be like, oh, yeah.

我本想说‘我爱你’。

I meant to say I love you.

于是时间又过去了。

And so then more time passed.

你知道，我一直觉得他情感上很内敛。

And, you know, I I always felt like, he's emotionally reserved.

但回头想想，我甚至比他更内敛。

But in hindsight, I was just as, if not more reserved than he was.

我感受到了强烈的情感。

Like, I felt these strong feelings.

从第一天，我们的第一次约会起，我就觉得他身上有种特别而美好的不同之处。

From day one, our first date, I was there was something really special and different about him in a good way.

但在接下来的几天里，莱斯利和科林开始彼此感到尴尬。

But in the days that followed, Leslie and Colin started to feel awkward around each other.

莱斯利确信科林后悔告诉她他爱她。

Leslie was sure that Colin regretted telling her that he loved her.

在她心里，她提醒自己，他曾说‘我觉得我爱上了你’。

At the back of her mind, she reminded herself that he had said, I think I love you.

他只是以为自己爱她。

He only thought he loved her.

那并不是爱，对吧？

That wasn't love, was it?

渐渐地，他们之间的对话变得越来越生硬。

Slowly, the conversations between them got more and more stilted.

莱斯利觉得自己陷入了一段关系的模糊状态。

Leslie felt she was in relationship limbo.

有一天，莱斯利提出要谈谈，并告诉科林她认为他们应该分手。

One day Leslie asked to have a chat and told Colin she thought they should break up.

他没有反驳她，也没有恳求她改变主意。

He didn't argue with her or plead with her to change her mind.

他说他会收拾东西离开。

He said he would get his stuff and leave.

莱斯利很受伤，科林没有为这段关系争取过，但她告诉自己：看吧，这证明他不爱我。

Leslie was hurt Collin hadn't fought for the relationship but she told herself, See, it shows he doesn't love me.

我为此感到非常难过，觉得自己失去了很多，但后来我遇到了巨大的好运，有一天，我家门口出现了一张卡片，上面有一手手写的便条。

And I was really sad about it and I really I felt like I had lost out and then I had a tremendous stroke of luck because one day, there was a card that showed up on my doorstep, a handwritten note.

上面甚至没有贴邮票。

It didn't even have a stamp on it.

而且字迹是他写的，我认得出来。

Like and it was in his in his handwriting, which I knew.

所以我回到家，简直要晕倒了。

So I got home, and it's just mega swoon.

有一张手写的卡片。

There's this handwritten card.

他就在那里。

He was there.

他把信放在这里了。

He had dropped it off.

于是我打开了它，里面是一封感人至深的情书。

So I opened it up, and it's this amazing love letter.

而且写得非常真诚。

And it was so honest.

我Actually把它带在身边了。

I actually have it here.

我想读一段给你听。

I wanted to read a part of it.

好的。

Okay.

他说：如果我对自己诚实，我知道我确实爱你。

He said, if I'm being honest with myself, I know that I do love you.

我知道我害怕承认自己爱上了你，害怕接受我对你的感觉，也害怕让自己陷入爱中，以及这一切所代表的意义。

I know I was scared of admitting that I was in love with you, scared to embrace how I was feeling about you, and scared to let myself be in love with you and all that meant.

于是我给他发了条短信，当然，我没法像个成年人一样直接打电话给他。

And so then I texted him and, of course, I couldn't pick up the phone call and call him like a grown up.

我给他发短信说：嘿，我收到了你那封美好的信。

I texted him and I said, you know, hi, I got your lovely letter.

我正盯着屏幕，看到对话气泡一个接一个地冒出来。

And I'm literally staring at my screen and I see the bubbles pop up.

我们在交流了。

He's we're communicating.

他在发消息。

He's texting.

后来我们又见面了，重新开始交往，一段炽热的恋情就此展开。

So then we met up again, and we started seeing each other again, and a whirlwind romance ensued.

一年后，我们结婚了，接着迎来了两个可爱的小孩。

And then a year later, we were married, and then two wonderful little children followed.

我非常感激他有勇气这么做，因为如果没有他，我绝不会有现在的生活。

I'm so grateful that he had the courage to do that because I would have never had the life that I have now.

我不会有这些孩子。

I wouldn't have the children.

我不会有，是的，我的白马王子。

I wouldn't I wouldn't have, yeah, my prince charming.

在过去两周里，我们探讨了向他人展现自我的诸多原因。

Over the last two weeks, we've looked at the many reasons to reveal ourselves to others.

但这并不意味着我们应该毫无保留地吐露所有想法。

But that doesn't mean we should always blurt out everything on our minds.

事实上，有时最好还是隐瞒一些信息。

There are, in fact, times when it might be best to withhold information.

这正是我们在《隐藏的大脑》付费版节目中探讨的主题：何时该隐藏真相。

That's in our Hidden Brain Plus episode titled When to Hide the Truth.

如果你是订阅用户，该节目现在应该已经出现在你的播客推送中了。

If you're a subscriber, that episode should be available in your podcast feed right now.

如果你还不是订阅用户，请前往 support.hiddenbrain.org。

If you're not yet a subscriber, please go to support.hiddenbrain.org.

如果你使用的是苹果设备，请访问 apple.co/hiddenbrain。

If you're using an Apple device, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain.

再次提醒，网址是 support.hiddenbrain.org 和 apple.co/hiddenbrain。

Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org and apple.co/hiddenbrain.

心理学家莱斯利·约翰是《过度分享的被低估的力量》一书的作者。

Psychologist Leslie John is the author of The Underrated Power of Oversharing.

莱斯利，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的大脑》。

Leslie, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

不客气。

You're welcome.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

你能想到一次你向别人坦白的经历吗？

Can you think of a time when you came clean to someone else?

你还记得当时发生了什么，以及那种感觉如何吗？

Do you remember what happened and how it felt?

如果你愿意与《隐性思维》的听众分享你的个人故事，或者对自我隐藏和自我披露有任何问题或评论，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录制一段语音备忘录。

If you're willing to share your personal story with the Hidden Brain audience or have a question or comment about self concealment and self disclosure, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

请将文件发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：secrets。

Use the subject line secrets.

再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

我们通常在浪漫关系中思考秘密和自我披露这类话题，这是最重要的情境之一。

One of the most significant contexts in which we often think about topics like secrets and self disclosure is in our romantic relationships.

我们希望伴侣是我们可以与之分享一切的人。

We want our partners to be the person with whom we share everything.

但我们也希望在关系中保留一些刺激和神秘感。

But we also want to keep a bit of excitement and mystery in our relationships.

我们曾在节目中与心理学家埃利·菲金讨论过这个话题，他研究了他所称的‘全有或全无’婚姻。

We've talked about this on the show with psychologist Eli Finkel who has studied what he calls the all or nothing marriage.

广告后，埃利将重返节目，回答你们关于对浪漫关系施加压力的问题，以及我们如何可能减轻对自己和伴侣的压力。

After the break, Eli returns to the show to answer your questions about the pressures we put on our romantic relationships and how we might want to take some of the pressure off ourselves and our partners.

你一定不想错过。

You won't want to miss it.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

回想一下你上次意识到自己坠入爱河的时刻。

Think back to the last time you realized you were falling in love.

你会如何描述那种感觉？

How would you describe that feeling?

那令人兴奋吗？

Was it thrilling?

会不会有点吓人？

Maybe a little scary?

也许你记得，那时你和爱人会聊上几个小时，谈些无关紧要或至关重要的事情。

Perhaps you remember it as a phase when you and your love would talk for hours chatting about nothing and everything.

恋爱关系中的这段蜜月期可以让人欣喜若狂。

This honeymoon phase of a romantic relationship can be euphoric.

随着关系的加深，爱情的迷醉中又增添了新的内容。

As the relationship deepens, new things are added to the heady buzz of love.

你会开始依赖你的伴侣。

You come to rely on your partner.

如果你们能长久在一起，你的爱人就会成为你的知己、你的支持者、你的精神支柱。

If you stay together, your lover becomes your confidant, your cheerleader, your support system.

随着时间推移，我们对伴侣的要求只会越来越高。

Over time, the demands we have for our soulmates only increase.

我们既想要激情四溢的恋人，又想要稳定可靠的伴侣。

We want the passionate lover, and we want the stable partner.

我们希望对方是出色的父母，也是冒险家；是冲动的旅行伙伴，也是在艰难时刻始终支持我们的靠山。

We want the amazing parent and the adventurer, the impulsive travel companion, and the rock who stands by us in tough times.

我们希望对方有趣。

We want funny.

我们希望对方勇敢。

We want brave.

我们希望对方善良。

We want kind.

当然，我们依然希望当初让我们坠入爱河的那个人，能一直保持魅力。

And of course, we still want the gorgeous person we fell in love with to stay gorgeous.

在西北大学，心理学家伊莉·芬克尔研究当我们要求一个人承担如此多角色时会发生什么。

At Northwestern University, psychologist Eli Finkel examines what happens when we ask one person to play so many roles for us.

他是《全有或全无的婚姻：最佳婚姻如何运作》一书的作者。

He is the author of The All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work.

我们第一次在2018年与艾利交谈，那次对话一直广受欢迎。

We first talked with Eli back in 2018, and our conversation has remained enduringly popular.

你可以在节目笔记中找到相关链接。

You can find a link to it in the show notes.

今天，艾利重返《隐藏的思维》，参与我们的‘听众问答’环节，在这个环节中，嘉宾会回到节目回答听众的问题。

Today, Eli returns to Hidden Brain for Your Questions Answered, our segment where guests come back to the show to answer questions from listeners.

艾利·芬克尔，欢迎再次来到《隐藏的思维》。

Eli Finkel, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我很高兴能回来。

I'm excited to be back.

艾利，在我们第一次的对话中，我们讨论了你所说的‘全有或全无的婚姻’。

Eli, in our first conversation, we discussed what you call the all or nothing marriage.

你所说的这个术语是什么意思？

What do you mean by that term?

这是一种描述当前婚姻时代的方式。

It's a way of capturing the current era of marriage.

当我探索这些想法时，我追踪了我们对婚姻期望的历史演变。

And what I did when I was exploring these ideas is I tracked the historical trajectory of what is it that we expect from our marriage.

一旦我深入研究社会学和历史，我就意识到，我们今天的期望与过去相比，在某些方面发生了相当激进的变化。

And once I delved into the sociology and the history, I realized that our expectations today are different in some pretty radical ways from how they used to be in the past.

我的意思是，我们可以回溯到几百年前，想想如果我们不是在2025年，而是在1825年，我们会从婚姻中期待什么。

I mean, we can go back a couple hundred years and think about what would we be looking for from our marriage if we were not in 2025, but like 1825.

当时我们对配偶的期待是满足一些最基本的需求。

And what we looked for in a spouse was the fulfillment of really basic needs.

我 literally 指的是食物、衣物、住所这类东西。

I literally mean things like food, clothing, shelter.

确实，人们更希望爱自己的配偶。

It's true that people preferred to love their spouse.

如果性生活好，那就太棒了。

And if the sex were good, that would be terrific.

但那并不是婚姻的目的。

But that wasn't the point of marriage.

人们不会站在婚礼的祭坛上说：我娶你是因为你让我完整。

People didn't get up on the marriage alter and say, I'm marrying you because you complete me.

如今，我们期望伴侣能为我们承担一切角色：爱人、最好的朋友、心理咨询师。

So today, we expect our partners to be everything for us, a lover, a best friend, a therapist.

我们希望他们既是安全的港湾，又是充满激情的源泉。

We want them to represent a safe place, but also an exciting one.

我们的婚姻期望是如何发生如此剧烈的变化的，埃利？

How did our expectations of marriage change so radically, Eli?

是的，你说得完全对。

Yeah, you're exactly right.

从这种基本的、共同的农舍式婚姻观念到现在，我们目睹着我们的爱人站在婚礼的祭坛上说：你让我完整，你是我最好的朋友。

So from this basic shared farmhouse way of thinking up until today, we witness our loved ones stand on the marriage altar and say things like, You complete me, you're my best friend.

过去几百年里发生重大变化的两件事，首先是经济的变化。

The two major things that shifted over the last couple hundred years, the first were changes to the economy.

与农业时代不同，我们见证了城市化进程，这一趋势在1850年之后显著加速。

And in contrast to the agricultural era, we saw this urbanization, it really picked up after the 1850s.

城市化带来了城市中心大量就业机会。

And what you get with urbanization is a surfeit of jobs in urban centers.

因此，有史以来第一次，年轻人搬到城市，他们在地理上和经济上都脱离了父母的依赖。

And so for the first time ever anywhere, young people move to cities and they are geographically and economically independent of their parents.

那么，他们想要的是什么？

And what is it that they want?

他们希望获得个人的满足感。

They want to feel personally fulfilled.

过去，婚姻能带来满足感已经很不错了。

And so, it used to be nice for a marriage to be fulfilling.

但自那以后，配偶的个人满足变得至关重要。

But since that time, the personal fulfillment of the spouses becomes essential.

这种经济上的变化与我们文化的变迁相辅相成。

And that change to the economy dovetails with changes in our culture.

我们的文化经历了许多变化，但或许最相关的是二十世纪人本主义心理学的兴起。

We've seen a lot of changes to our culture, but perhaps the most relevant one here is the rise in the twentieth century of humanistic psychology.

这些人包括亚伯拉罕·马斯洛，他谈论诸如自我实现之类的内容。

These are people like Abraham Maslow, who talks about things like self actualization.

因此，一方面，经济的变化使人们如今独立自主，为自己和个人的满足做决定。

And so on the one hand, we've got the changes to the economy such that people are now independent, making decisions for themselves and their personal fulfillment.

他们不仅强调爱情，还强调配偶应该帮助我们过一种真实、自我实现的生活。

And they are emphasizing not only love, but also the idea that our spouse should help us live an authentic, self actualizing life.

你提到了心理学家亚伯拉罕·马斯洛。

You mentioned the psychologist Abraham Maslow.

请提醒我们一下他著名的需要层次理论，以及这个模型与我们当今婚姻观之间的关联。

Remind us about his famous hierarchy of needs and the corollary that you saw between this model and our approach to marriage today.

是的，这是心理学史上最有名的观点之一。

Yeah, this is one of the most famous ideas in the history of psychology.

这个观点是，我们的需求并非随意杂乱的喜好，而是呈现出一种层级结构。

The idea is that our needs are not just a random smattering of things that we would like, but that they exist in a hierarchy.

更基本的需求包括生理需求和安全需求。

And some of the more fundamental needs are things like physiological and safety needs.

比如需要保暖，需要有足够的食物。

Literally things like the need to stay warm, the need to have enough food.

当这些需求至少部分得到满足时，你就会向上攀升，去追求其他类型的需求。

And then you go up his hierarchy if those needs are at least least somewhat met and you look to other sorts of needs.

在层级的中段，你会看到爱与归属感这类需求。

And to the middle of his hierarchy, you see things like love and belonging.

而当你看向层级的顶端时，就会出现更偏向心理层面的需求，比如自尊和自我实现的需求。

And then as you look toward the top of his hierarchy, you get more psychologically oriented needs like esteem and self actualization needs.

你的观点是，婚姻的故事在某种程度上，正是沿着这个需求层级向上发展的。

And your argument is that in some ways, the story of marriage, in some ways, has marched up this hierarchy of needs.

过去，我们寻求婚姻主要是为了满足基本需求，但现在我们越来越依赖婚姻来满足我们最高层次的需求？

It used to be that we look to marriage to fulfill more of our basic needs, but now we increasingly look to marriage to fulfill our very highest needs?

是的，这正是我们长期以来所看到的。

Yes, that is exactly what we've seen over time.

这很有趣，因为我肯定是那些观察到我们对配偶的要求越来越高的群体之一，我们如何在婚姻中实现这些目标？

And it is interesting because I'm certainly among the people who have observed that we're asking more and more of our spouse over time, how can we achieve those things in our marriage?

我们需要彼此之间达到的理解程度和沟通水平。

The level of understanding, the level of communication that we need to have for each other.

如果我们想帮助彼此克服无意识的障碍和对成功的恐惧，从而突破到另一侧，成为最真实、最理想的自我，这真的很难。

If we're gonna help each other, I don't know, conquer our unconscious blocks and our fear of success in order to break through to the other side to achieve the most authentic ideal version of ourselves, it's really hard.

但还有一件事情发生了。

But there's a second thing that happens.

我认为我们真的需要重视这一点。

And I think we really need to appreciate this one.

在马斯洛需求层次的顶端，我们会获得深刻而深刻的满足感。

It's at the top of Maslow's hierarchy that we get deep profound feelings of fulfillment.

在底层，当然，我们确实需要足够的食物。

At the bottom, sure, of course we need to have enough food.

当然，冻得发抖是很糟糕的。

Of course it's terrible to be freezing.

但正如马斯洛自己所说，更高层次的需求满足才能带来更深刻的幸福、宁静和内心生活的丰富。

But as Maslow himself said, it's the higher need gratifications that produce more profound happiness, serenity and richness of the inner life.

因此，我们在某种程度上发生了变化，使得建立联系变得更加困难。

So we've shifted in a way that makes connecting more difficult.

我们中的许多人对婚姻关系的满意度，低于我们的祖父母认为完全可接受的水平。

And many of us are disappointed with a level of marital connection that would have been totally okay for our grandparents.

但那些追求顶层目标并取得成功的人，实现了以往时代无法企及的婚姻连接深度。

But those of us who are looking to the top and succeeding are achieving a level of marital connection that was out of reach in earlier eras.

所以，伊莱，从某种意义上说，你是在说，我们对婚姻抱有更高的期望，这产生了一种悖论。

So in some ways, Eli, what you're saying is that the much higher expectations that we have of marriage produce something of a paradox.

对于那些能够达到这些期望的夫妻来说，他们最终会非常幸福，甚至可能比两百年前的夫妻更幸福。

For the couples who manage to meet those expectations, they end up incredibly happy and potentially much happier than couples were two hundred years ago.

但对于许多无法攀登你所说的马斯洛高峰的人来说，他们的关系却感到不足。

But for many people who are not able to ascend to the very peaks of Mount Maslow, as you call it, people find that their relationships are falling short.

说得完全正确。

That is exactly right.

这正是‘全有或全无’婚姻理念的由来。

And that's the idea behind the all or nothing marriage.

我们生活在一个前所未有的时代，人们不再满足于马斯洛需求层次的底层，而是追求更高层次的联结，这带来了实现深度联结的可能性；但与此同时，由于这些期望都指向顶层，也使许多人面临失望的风险。

We've created an era that affords the possibility of a level of connection that was difficult to achieve when people weren't looking to the top of Maslow's hierarchy, while at the same time placed a lot of people at risk for disappointment because those expectations are oriented toward the top.

我应该补充一点，我认为这个理论能够解释其他理论无法真正说明的现象：如今，婚姻幸福与整体生活幸福感之间的关联强度，是几十年前的两倍。

And I should just say one of the things that I think this theory can explain that no other theory can really account for is the extent to which having a happy marriage is linked to being overall happy in our lives is twice as strong today as it was a few decades ago.

我认为原因在于，我们在婚姻中感受到的满足感差异变得更大了。

And I think the reason why is because there's so much more variability in terms of how fulfilled we feel in our marriage.

顶层的婚姻状态极为出色。

The top end is exceptional.

而平均水平可能正在变差。

The average is maybe getting worse.

因此，如今能否拥有一段幸福而充实的婚姻，比过去任何时候都更加重要。

And so sticking the landing on having a happy fulfilling marriage is more important today than it was in the past.

一些听众来信讨论了期望在婚姻中的作用，以及高期望可能带来的挑战。

So some listeners wrote in about the role of expectations in marriage and the challenge that high expectations can pose.

黛安娜写道，像芬克尔博士一样。

Diana wrote, like Doctor.

我同意未实现的期望会导致负面情绪。

Finkel, I agree that unmet expectations cause negative feelings.

然而，我强烈不同意他关于需要降低期望的观点。

However, I strongly disagree with his opinion of the need to lower expectations.

降低意味着质量的下降或体验的减弱。

Lowering implies a decrease in quality or a lesser experience.

我建议你应当调整或适应自己的期望，以契合你生活和关系中的现实情况。

I would suggest that you need to change or adapt your expectations to support the reality of what's happening in your lives and the relationship.

与伴侣坦诚讨论期望，并共同商定可以期待的内容，将大大有助于建立充满爱意的幸福关系。

Discussing expectations openly with your partner and mutually agreeing on what can be expected will go a long way in creating a loving, happy relationship.

你觉得呢，埃利？

What do you think, Eli?

你是建议人们降低他们的期望吗？

Are you recommending that people lower their expectations?

还是像戴安娜所说，人们应该以某种方式讨论他们的期望，并达成一个彼此都能接受的结论？

Or like Diana, are you saying that people in some way should discuss their expectations and come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion?

是的。

Yeah.

我对戴安娜的观点完全赞同。

I see eye to eye with Diana on this.

我想就她的观点说两点。

I think there are two things I'd like to say in response to her.

第一点是，她说得对，沟通我们期望什么、不期望什么是很重要的。

The first one is that she's right about the importance of communicating about what we will and won't expect.

让我补充一点，人们在表达对婚姻应提供什么的期望时，远比表达婚姻不必提供什么时要积极得多。

And let me say, I think people do a whole lot more of articulating what they expect the marriage to deliver than what they're willing to say the marriage doesn't have to deliver these things.

我认为，通过与伴侣沟通以及对自己进行诚实的评估，我们可以判断哪些需求必须由这段关系来满足，哪些需求完全可以通过其他关系或独自实现。

And I think through communication with our partner and through honest assessment with ourselves, we can decide which are the things we have to meet through this one relationship versus which are the things that are totally acceptable to meet either through other relationships or on our own.

我想说的第二点是，期望具有两种不同的作用。

The second thing I'd like to say is that expectations do two different things.

一方面，它们设定了一个标准，我们据此评估自己所经历的事情。

One is they set a standard according to which we're gonna evaluate the experiences we're having.

在这种情况下，过高的期望实际上是有害的，因为无论你经历什么，如果你期望得少，反而会比期望得多更感到满意。

And here high expectations are in fact disadvantageous because given any set of experiences you might have, you'll be more pleased with them if you expected less than if you expected more.

但戴安娜说得完全正确。

But Diana is absolutely right.

期望还有第二个作用，那就是它作为一种激励力量。

There is a second thing that expectations do, which is that they serve as a motivational force.

因此，因为我对婚姻抱有很高的期望，所以我投入了很多。

And so because I expect a lot from the marriage, I invest a lot.

我会朝着这些目标努力。

I push toward those things.

我会努力以特定的方式与对方建立联系，这些方式正是指向马斯洛需求层次顶端的。

I try to connect in exactly those ways that are oriented toward the top of Maslow's hierarchy.

正是这些动力、这些高期望，才使得如此深厚的婚姻联结成为可能。

And it's those motivations, those high expectations that afford the possibility of such a deep marital connection.

我认为可以说，婚姻的结束很少是愉快的。

I think it's safe to say that the end of a marriage is rarely fun.

但当你的大部分身份认同都建立在这一段关系之上时，一旦关系破裂，痛苦会尤其强烈。

But when a large part of your identity is built around that relationship, it can be especially painful when it doesn't work out.

我想为大家播放一位名叫Soul的听众的经历。

I'd like to play for you the experience of a listener named Soul.

我和妻子在一起总共二十四年，其中二十二年是婚姻生活，在大部分时间里，我从未如此幸福。

My wife and I were together for a total of twenty four years, married for twenty two of them, and I could not have been happier for most of the time.

我手臂上纹了她的图案。

I, have a tattoo of her on my arm.

我写了一本书，讲述我们的蜜月。

I wrote a book about our honeymoon.

我只是，把我的整个身份都建立在对她的忠诚之上。

I just, like, made my whole identity be how much I was devoted to her.

在她自己毫无过错的情况下，她意识到自己是同性恋。

Through no fault of her own, she realized that she's gay.

这显然对我们俩来说都是一个巨大的冲击。

And that obviously came as a bombshell, think, to both of us.

这当然意味着许多改变。

And it, obviously meant a lot of changes.

我们有四个孩子，我们告诉了他们这件事。

We have four children, and we told them this.

我从未认为我们会分手。

And I did not see us breaking up as as possible.

我感到无比失望，因为我们的故事对我来说就是一切。

And I couldn't be more disappointed because our story was everything to me.

它曾经如此美好。

It was so beautiful.

它如此美好。

It so wonderful.

我以为我们注定要在一起。

I thought we were just destined to be.

所以，埃利，我感同身受。

So Eli, I feel for soul.

他说自己的整个身份都寄托在这段与前妻的关系中，看起来他以为自己已经达到了马斯洛需求的顶峰，却最终失去了这段关系。

He says his whole identity was wrapped up in this relationship with his ex wife, and it appears he was someone who thought he had reached the heights of Mount Maslow only to find himself losing the relationship.

我想知道，当索威尔开始塑造新的自我身份时，你会对他说些什么？

I'm wondering what you would say to Sowell as he begins charting a new identity for himself.

非常深刻。

Enormously.

听他的故事时，我有点想哭。

I'm sort of tearing up a little as I'm listening to his story.

这是一个美丽、令人心酸、悲伤而又感人的故事。

It is a beautiful, poignant, sad, touching story.

这非常契合我们这个时代的特征。

And it is very much a story of the current era.

他理解，他的妻子也明白，如果她是同性恋，就不应该被要求继续维持一段与男性的婚姻。

He understands and his wife understands that if she's gay, she shouldn't be expected to remain in a marriage to a man.

这与她真实的自我是不一致的。

That would be inconsistent with who she is.

我认为他捕捉到了这个非此即彼时代的重大风险之一。

And I think he's capturing one of the great risks of the all or nothing era.

据我们所知，他确实构建了马斯洛需求层次顶端那种深刻而深厚的情感联结，以及各种心理层面的连接。

He, so far as we can tell, really did build one of these top of Maslow's hierarchy, deep profound level of connection and all the psychological sorts of ways.

当这种联结终结时，我们真的会感到迷失，有时甚至陷入空虚。

And when that ends, we really are left unmoored, sometimes even bereft.

他并没有对此发表具体评论。

He didn't comment specifically about this.

但当前婚姻时代的一个风险在于，我们不再像过去那样重视我所说的其他重要他人。

But one of the risky things about the current era of marriage is we don't attend as much as we used to, to what I've called the other significant others.

我们的家人、亲密朋友、表亲，对吧？

Our family members, our close friends, our cousins, right?

我们不像以前那样关注并持续投入这些关系了。

We don't attend as much as we used to and continue to invest in those relationships.

这意味着，如果我们所追求的这种位于马斯洛需求顶层的婚姻关系出现问题，我们就失去了原本可能拥有的同样坚实的社会支持网络。

And that means that if this all marriage that we've been pursuing, the one atop Maslow's hierarchy, if it falters, we're left without the same level of social backdrop that we might've had otherwise.

我也在想，艾利，我们的婚姻期望如此之高，是否在某种程度上导致现在能符合这些标准的人越来越少？

I'm wondering also, Eli, if it's possible that in some ways our high expectations of marriage have meant that fewer people are now able to fit the bill.

换句话说，如果我希望我的伴侣成为我的灵魂伴侣、朋友、经济伙伴，甚至我的一切，那么可能适合我的人就越来越少。

In other words, if I'm if I expect my partner to be my soulmate, my friend, my financial comrade, my my everything, perhaps there are fewer and fewer suitors whom I might consider appropriate.

我认为这是一个中肯的观察：随着我们对伴侣在社会和心理需求方面所要求的特质清单越来越长、越来越深，能够满足这些需求的人的比例也就越来越小。

I think that's a fair observation that in so far as our list of required attributes, especially for these sorts of social and psychological sorts of needs that we have, and so far as that list gets longer and deeper, the proportion of people, the number of people who might be able to fulfill that for us gets smaller.

而且，我们会觉得，和一个无法满足这些需求的人在一起，就像是在妥协，这违背了真实生活的本质。

And it feels like we would be settling in a way that would be a violation to an authentic life to be with somebody who couldn't fulfill those needs.

我们回来后，将更深入地探讨影响关系的一些压力源，以及我们可以如何应对它们。

When we come back, a closer look at some of the stressors that impact relationships and what we can do about them.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是 Hidden Brain。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在西北大学，心理学家 Eli Finkel 研究关系的科学。

At Northwestern University, psychologist Eli Finkel studies the science of relationships.

他研究夫妻为何更可能维系关系，以及为何会分崩离析。

He looks at why couples might be more likely to stay together and also why they might fall apart.

Eli，我们来谈谈一些影响婚姻的压力源。

Eli, let's talk about some of the stressors that can affect marriages.

最常见的压力源之一是金钱。

One of the most common stressors is money.

伴侣们常常在如何赚钱以及是储蓄、消费还是投资方面存在分歧。

Partners often differ on how to get money and whether to save, spend, or invest it.

你发表了一项研究，探讨了财务困境如何影响亲密关系的心理机制。

You published a study that looked at the psychology of how financial struggles in relationships can affect the outcome of those relationships.

告诉我你的发现。

Tell me what you found.

关于收入与关系幸福感之间的联系，我们有两个主要发现。

There are two major findings linking things like income to relationship well-being.

第一个发现认为低收入是一种压力来源。

The first one construes low income as a source of stress.

在这方面的研究中，我们看到伴侣之间的争吵会更多。

And what we see in that literature is that you just fight more.

如果资源不足，争吵的事情就会比资源充足时更多。

There's more things to fight about if you don't have enough resources rather than if you do.

是的。

Right.

对我而言，在我的关系中，我们有足够的钱撑到月底并支付房租。

So for me, in my relationship, we have enough money to make it to the end of the month and pay the rent.

我们有足够的钱，想出去吃饭的时候就能出去吃。

We have enough money that if we want to eat out, we can eat out.

对于那些经济上极度困难的人，到了月底，他们往往会因为谁的优先事项该被满足、愿意做出哪些牺牲而争吵。

What happens at the end of the month for people who are really struggling financially, they end up fighting about whose priorities get met, what sacrifices we're willing to make.

即使他们在应对这些额外压力时，还存在第二个问题，那就是他们缺乏资源。

And even as they're dealing with those additional stressors, there's a second problem, which is they don't have the resources.

这里我说的不仅是经济资源，还包括情感上的资源，以便更有效地应对这些困难的压力。

And here I'm talking financial and also emotional to handle those difficult stressors as effectively.

我可以和妻子出去约会，讨论这些类型的问题。

I can go out with my wife to a date and talk about these sorts of issues.

我们可以请一个保姆照看孩子，给我们时间投入关系，解决这些问题。

We can hire a babysitter to look after the children, to give us time to invest in the relationship and work through those things.

因此，那些没有同等资源的人正面临双重打击：一方面，他们所面对的困境比我们其他人要艰难得多。

And so people who don't have the same level of resources are dealing with this double whammy, where on the one hand, they're handling much more difficult circumstances than the rest of us.

另一方面，他们用来应对这些困境的资源也更加有限。

And on the other hand, the resources they have available to handle those circumstances are also more limited.

是的

Yeah.

所以我在想，你所描绘的这种景象，是否正是研究者发现低收入夫妇更不太可能结婚，而一旦结婚后又更可能离婚的原因？

So I'm wondering if this picture that you're painting is part of the reason why researchers found that lower income couples are less likely to marry in the first place, and once they do, they're more likely to divorce.

对。

Yes.

他们更不太可能结婚。

They are less likely to marry.

他们更可能离婚。

They're more likely to divorce.

而这些差异的表面解释，结果被证明是错误的。

And the sort of low hanging explanation for those differences turned out to be wrong.

所以，许多学者和文化评论员最初的想法是，那些没有大学学位、或许连高中都没毕业、收入不高的人，对婚姻制度的重视程度不够。

So the initial idea that many scholars had, also cultural commentators often have is that people who don't have a college degree, maybe don't have a high school degree, don't make that much money, don't really value the institution of marriage enough.

但我们可以问一问，对吧？

But look, we can ask, right?