你觉得自己被忽视了吗？

你赢得了金牌。

You won the gold medal.

多诺万·贝利谈到他在亚特兰大奥运会上打破世界纪录并赢得金牌时，起跑时犯下的错误。

Donovan Bailey talked about the mistake he made coming out of the blocks as he set the world record and won the gold medal in the Atlanta Atlanta Olympics.

后来，他一直在思考自己犯下的那个错误，因为如果当时没有失误，他本可以跑得更快。

And later, he's thinking about the mistake that he made because he could have gone faster.

那样的话，他的纪录就能保持得更久。

And then his record would have been protected longer.

谈谈这种‘无足轻重’的感觉如何与我们陷入反复思虑的循环有关。

Talk about how this feeling of anti mattering is related to how we can become trapped in these cycles of rumination.

某种程度上，你已经暗示了这一点。

In some ways, you're hinting at this already.

一个取得了非凡成就的人。

Someone who's accomplished something extraordinary.

你知道，赢得奥运金牌、打破世界纪录的人，却困在自己脑海中，纠结于自己没做到的事，而不是自己已经做到的事。

You know, winning a gold medal at the Olympics, breaking a world record is caught up in their own heads with what they haven't done instead of what they have done.

是的

Yeah.

我认为，他们不仅沉浸在对错误和未达预期的反复思虑中，还常常纠结于那些让他们感到自己无足轻重的人际互动。

And I I think not only are they caught up in terms of ruminating about mistakes and falling short, I believe they also ruminate and brood over interactions where people have made them feel like they don't matter.

而这种情况往往会成为通往抑郁的桥梁。

And what happens is that that then is a bridge to depression.

所以，想象一下，如果你正感到抑郁，同时又不断思考自己为何如此抑郁，还一遍又一遍地琢磨：为什么别人看不到我、不把我当回事？为什么我的朋友如此重要，而我却不是？我到底哪里出了问题？

So imagine if you're feeling depressed, and then you're also ruminating about why you're feeling depressed, and then you're ruminating and thinking over and over about why aren't people seeing me and treating me as more significant, and why is my friend so significant and I'm not, What is it about me?

然后，不幸的是，人们会得出结论：他们一定是有缺陷的。

And then people unfortunately conclude, well, they must be defective.

他们一定有什么不足，所以才得到这样的对待——但实际上，他们根本不该被这样对待。

They must have some shortcoming that and they're just getting treated the way they deserve to be treated when in fact they don't deserve to be treated that way.

在那些正挣扎于生活挑战的人，以及那些看似轻松应对挑战的人当中，可能存在一个共同的痛点。

Among people who are struggling with life's challenges, and also among those who seem to navigate those challenges with ease, there may be a shared sore spot.

那就是，归根结底，他们觉得自己并不重要。

The sense that, at the end of the day, they don't really matter.

好消息是，归属感可以有意识地在自己和他人身上培养。

The good news is that a sense of mattering can be consciously cultivated in ourselves and others.

当我们回来时，聊聊如何培养一种被看见、被倾听、被珍视的感觉。

When we come back, how we can foster a sense of being seen, heard, and valued for who we are.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shakar Vedanta。

I am Shakar Vedanta.

你是否在人生中经历过一种深感被忽视的时刻？

Have you experienced a moment in your life when you felt profoundly invisible?

你是否找到了一种方法，让自己不再感到被忽视，或帮助他人感受到被看见？

Have you found a way to not feel invisible or to help others feel seen?

如果你有一个故事或问题想与《隐藏的大脑》的听众分享，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a story or a question you would like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

请将录音发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：invisible。

Use the subject line invisible.

渴望被重视的驱动力深深植根于人类的心理之中。

Drive to feel like we matter is deeply woven into the human psyche.

戈登·弗拉特是《理解人类对重要性的需求心理学》一书的作者。

Gordon Flat is the author of The Psychology of Understanding the Human Need to be Significant.

戈德，你说这种被重视的感觉是可以有意识地培养的。

Gord, you say that a feeling of mattering can be deliberately cultivated.

你的意思是，某种程度上，我们不必等待世界让我们感到自己重要？

Are you saying in some ways that we don't have to wait for the world to make us feel like we matter?

我们可以自己开始这样做吗？

We can start to do it ourselves?

是的。

Yes.

这正是它的妙处所在。

That's the great thing about it.

我们可以通过致力于让他人感觉更好、产生影响，来获得掌控感和重要感。

We can get a sense of agency and a sense of importance by engaging in a pursuit of making other people feel better, making a difference.

我在我妻子的叔叔身上看到了这一点，他几乎活到了一百岁。

I saw this with my wife's uncle who almost lived to 100.

他独自一人住在自己出生的房子里，整整近一百年。

He lived by himself in the house he was born with by himself for almost a hundred years.

他成为了社区里一位了不起的志愿者。

And, you know, he became the incredible volunteer to his community.

他甚至会给比他年轻的人送餐上门，每次讲起这件事，他都会哈哈大笑。

He would actually deliver Meals on Wheels to people who were younger than him, and he would cackle when he'd tell me this.

我九十多了，还在帮助比我年轻的人。

I'm in my nineties and I'm giving help to people who are younger than me.

他还担任了八十多年的教堂管风琴手，因为教堂就在他家附近。

He was also the church organist for over eighty years, because it was right around the corner, the church from his home.

我曾经对他说：德里克，德里克叔叔，我问你，你究竟是怎么熬过来的？

And I said to him one time, Derek, Uncle Derek, I said, how on earth have you got by?

你有没有过孤独的经历？

Have you ever had experience of loneliness?

他打断了我。

And he cut me off.

他说：连一秒都没有。

He goes, not even for a second.

他说：因为我清楚，我社区里有人关心我，同时也依赖我，而‘被需要’的感觉关键就在于，你通过辅导、指导，或者在对方担忧时主动伸出援手，让别人依赖你，这种依赖最终会回馈到你身上。

He goes, because I know there are people in my community who care about me, but also rely and depend on me, which is a key part of feeling of mattering is that you can satisfy your sense of mattering by getting people who come to depend on you through coaching, mentoring, just being that person who reaches out to them when you're worrying about this, and then and it comes back to you.

所以这就像一种投资——你通过这样做、通过与关心你的人建立关系，来投资自己的幸福感。

So it's sort of like an investment where you're investing in your own sense of well-being by by doing that and establishing those relationships with people who care about you.

而最好的那种归属感是相互的归属感，你们彼此都重要。

And it's the best the best kind of mattering is reciprocal mattering where you matter to each other.

你说，我们可以通过反思自己已经对周围人产生的影响来培养归属感。

You say that one way we can begin to foster a sense of mattering is to reflect on all the ways in which we are already making an impact on the people around us.

科德，能详细说说这个观点吗？

Say more about this idea, Cord.

是的。

Yes.

我认为，人们常常忘记自己为别人做过什么。

People, I think, forget what they've done for other people.

他们完全忽略了自己在他人的生活中带来了多大的改变。

They just lose sight of how much difference they've made in the lives of other people.

你知道，每个人在某个时候都会有消极的想法，但那时，正是思考一下你曾带来改变、而他们会想念你的人的好时机。

You know, they say everybody at some time has dark thoughts, but, you know, at that point, that would be a great time to think about somebody who you've made a difference to, who would miss you.

所以当我们谈论心理学中的正念时，我说我们需要对归属感保持正念。

So when we talk about in psychology about mindfulness, I say we need to be mindful about mattering.

还有，所谓的‘意义感觉知’，就是我们不仅要关注当下，还要思考自己在多大程度上为他人带来了改变。

And, you know, mattering mindfulness where we say, okay, not just in the here and now, but how have we thought about ourselves in terms of making a difference to other people.

我想花点时间谈谈，我们为什么会忽略自己实际上为他人所做的一切，以及我们究竟如何对他人产生意义。

I want to spend a moment talking about how and why we lose track of what we have actually done for others and how we actually do matter to others.

我想播放一段1995年电影《春风化雨》的片段。

I want to play you a clip from the 1995 film, Mister Holland's Opus.

在这部电影中，理查德·德雷福斯饰演一位立志创作一部伟大交响乐的音乐老师。

In that movie, Richard Dreyfus plays a music teacher who is determined to write a great symphony.

他努力实现这一崇高目标，但在生命即将结束时，却觉得自己失败了。

He struggles to achieve this lofty goal, and toward the end of his life, he feels like he has failed.

在他退休欢送会上，一位昔日学生走上讲台，接下来是这位学生对他说的话。

At a gathering to commemorate his retirement, a former student of his takes the podium, and here's the clip of what the student tells him.

霍兰德先生对我的人生，以及我知道的许多人的生命，都产生了深远的影响。

Mister Holland had a profound influence on my life, on a lot of lives I know.

但我感觉，他本人却认为自己大半生虚度了。

And yet I get the feeling that he considers a great part of his own life misspent.

据说，他一直在创作自己的交响曲，这部作品将让他声名鹊起、腰缠万贯，或许两者兼得。

Rumor had it, he was always working on this symphony of his and this was going to make him famous, rich, probably both.

但霍兰先生并不富有，也不出名，至少在我们这个小镇之外没人知道他。

But mister Holland isn't rich and he isn't famous, at least not outside of our little town.

因此，他很容易认为自己是个失败者，但这种想法是错误的。

So it might be easy for him to think himself a failure and he would be wrong.

因为我认为，他所取得的成就远远超越了财富和名声。

Because I think he's achieved a success far beyond riches and fame.

环顾四周吧。

Look around you.

在座的每一个人，你都曾影响过，我们每个人都因你而变得更好。

There is not a life in this room that you have not touched, And each one of us is a better person because of you.

我们就是你的交响曲，霍兰先生。

We are your symphony, mister Holland.

我们是你乐章中的旋律与音符，是我们构成了你生命中的音乐。

We are the melodies and the notes of your opus, and we are the music of your life.

你在那段音频里听到了什么，上帝？

What do you hear in that clip, God?

发生什么事了？

What's going on?

是否重要是非常主观的，人们很容易忽视自己对他人的影响，甚至意识不到。

Mattering is so subjective where people can very easily lose sight of having an impact on others that they don't realize.

老师尤其常见这种情况，他们自己都没意识到，感到沮丧，可能只关注那个似乎学不会的学生，而忽略了所有真正学会的学生。

It's quite common with teachers where they don't realize, they get frustrated, you know, maybe focused on the one student who doesn't seem to be getting it rather than all the ones who are getting it.

关键的一点是，重要性是主观的。

And a key thing is that mattering is subjective.

它取决于我们如何评估自己：你觉得别人在乎你吗？

That it's our appraisals of how we think, you know, do we matter to others?

别人是否尊重你？

Are others holding us in esteem?

因此，以一种不那么主观的方式让别人感受到他们的价值，至关重要。

That's why it's very important to show somebody they matter in a way so it's not subjective.

在那段视频中，当然，那个著名的学生片段是那位州长，他如今重返乐队演奏霍兰德从未有机会完成的作品。

And in the clip, of course, the the famous clip of that student is the governor who's come back now to be part of the band to play Mr.

霍兰德的这部作品，他生前从未有机会演奏。

Holland's opus that he never got to have.

我想，对于每一个面临职业转型的人——无论是退休还是其他情况——如果有人能主动前来表达感激之情，那该有多好。

And, know, I said how wonderful it would be for everybody who's facing a job transition, whether it's retirement or whatever, to have people come in and just express their appreciation.

只需讲一个简短的故事。

And just tell a very quick story.

去年秋天，我在一次会议上提到过这一点。

So I mentioned this at a conference just back in the fall of last year.

在问答环节，一位教师——也是一位教育工作者——举手说，这种无法看到自己对他人的影响的想法。

And in the question period, a teacher put up her hand an educator, and she said, this notion of not being able to see what effect you've had on others.

她说，最近我接到一位前学生的假释官的电话，那位学生提供她的名字作为联系人，用作品格证明。

She goes, I was recently contacted by a parole officer of a former student who said that the student provided her name as somebody to contact to essentially the character reference.

她说，我记得那个学生，当时我觉得自己根本没能打动他。

And she said, I remember the student as being someone who I thought I just didn't get through to.

但当被问及时，他说他提供她的名字是因为她是唯一一个真正看透他本质的人，给了他被重视和被关心的感觉。

But when asked, he said that he's giving her name because she is the only one who saw him for for what he was, who really gave him a sense of being valued and cared about.

然而，在此之前，她从未意识到自己对这个年轻人产生了如此深远的影响。

Yet she, until that point, had not realized that she actually had that kind of an impact on the young man.

因此，我们常常无法准确判断自己对他人的影响有多大，这使得‘不重要’或‘不确定自己是否重要’这种感觉变得极其隐蔽且具有潜在破坏性。

So we we're often not a big judge of how much impact we have of others, which makes that that sense of not mattering or not sure if you're mattering very insidious and potentially destructive.

我见过一些案例，我想说，真是遗憾。

And I've I've seen cases where I say, you know, it's too bad.

这个人从未意识到他人对他或她怀有如此高的尊重。

The person never realized how much regard others had for him or her or they.

在这次对话中，有一件事我觉得值得提出来，那就是‘被重视’可能更关乎质量而非数量。

One of the things that has come up in this conversation that I think is worth flagging here is that mattering might be more a matter of quality rather than quantity.

我的意思是，你并不需要五十亿人认为你很棒，才能满足你的心理需求。

And what I mean by that is you don't need necessarily 5,000,000,000 people to think that you're great for you to have your psychological needs met.

你可能只需要一个人。

You might need one person.

你可能需要两个人。

You might need two people.

这让我想到了你刚刚给我讲的故事。

And this speaks to the story you just told me.

这个家伙处境危险。

This guy is in trouble.

他基本上是在跟假释官说话。

He's basically speaking to a parole officer.

他向假释官提及了一个早已淡出他生活的人，因为那是他内心最牵挂的人。

And he's referring the parole officer to someone who was in his very distant past because that's the person his mind gravitates toward.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这是一个非常出色且至关重要的观点：关系的质量，那种有人真正关心你、你知道他们不会忘记你的感觉，意义重大。

It's such an excellent and underscored point that, you know, the quality of the relationships, the quality, that sense of somebody truly caring and you know they care and they're not going to forget you is is a huge thing here.

关于这种一对一的关系，我总是会回到米奇·阿尔博姆那本著名的书《相约星期二》。

And, you know, in terms of that one to one relationship, I always come back to the famous book by Mitch Albom, Tuesdays with Morrie.

书中将一位前教授称为导师，并在教授身患重病、生命临近终点时，持续去探望他。

And, referring to a former professor as coach and going to see him right through to his final days due to his illness as he's approaching the end of his life.

我认为，这本书之所以如此著名，是因为人们能够共鸣于那种有人如此深切关心你的基本情感。

That's, I think, what made that book so famous is that people could relate to that basic feeling of having somebody who cares that much about you.

没有人能夺走这种关系，也没有人能夺走这种感受。

And nobody can take that kind of a relationship away, and nobody can take that kind of feeling away from you.

你说，我们也可以有意识地去让生活中的人感受到自己很重要。

You say that it's also possible for us to intentionally set out to make others in our lives feel like they matter.

如果我们是父母或老师，比如，我们可以采用你所说的那些促进孩子自我价值感的微小实践。

If we are parents or teachers, for example, we can engage in what you call micro practices that promote mattering in children.

这些实践具体是什么？

What are these practices?

是的。

Yeah.

这种关注部分源于我们家附近两个街区外的一所学校，那里简直是一个绝佳的‘被重视’的氛围，因为校长佩吉·莫里森即使面对近一千名学生，也能叫出每个孩子的名字，会在他们上学前或课间休息时主动上前交谈，提及他们兄弟姐妹或生活中重要的事情。

That focus in part comes from the school that's just two blocks away from where we live here, where it was an incredible, I wanna call it mattering milieu, because the principal, Peggy Morrison, knew even though there was almost 1,000 children in the school, knew every child by name, would go up and talk to them while waiting to go into school or at recess, could mention a brother or sister, something that was important to them.

所以，这在一定程度上是通过认可他人、给予个人关注，并记住和了解他们的细节来实现的。

So it's partly acknowledging somebody, showing them the personal attention, knowing and remembering something about them.

如果他们离开了一段时间，就告诉他们你很想念他们。

If they've been away for a while, tell them that they've been missed.

佩吉·莫里森也是写个人便条这种逐渐失传的艺术的大师。

Peggy Morrison is also the master of the lost art of writing a personal note to somebody.

简而言之，当你给予某人关注，更重要的是，当你为某人投入时间时，你就与他们建立了深刻的联结，让他们 unmistakably 感受到自己很重要。

Bottom line is when you give attention to somebody and more importantly, give time to someone, you're locked on to them in a way that they can feel unmistakably that that they matter.

因此，除了作为父母和教师的角色，你说作为各种类型的领导者、管理者或教练，我们也能帮助他人感受到自己的重要性。

So in addition to our role as parents and teachers, you say that as leaders of all kinds, as managers or coaches, we can help others feel like they matter.

你还讲了一个关于著名橄榄球教练文斯·隆巴迪的故事。

And you tell a story about the famous football coach, Vince Lombardi.

给我讲讲这个故事吧。

Tell me that story.

这个故事出自杰里·克雷默的书中，他是球队的一名进攻锋线球员，后来成长为明星球员，并入选了橄榄球名人堂。

This is a story that's in a book by Jerry Kramer, one of the offensive linemen who grew up to be one of the stars and became a member of the Football Hall of Fame.

克雷默犯了一个严重的错误，他让对方球员从他身边溜了过去，导致明星四分卫巴特·斯塔尔被撞得非常严重，人们甚至担心他是否还能继续比赛。

And Kramer made a horrible mistake where he let the guy go by him, and the star quarterback, Bart Starr, thought he was hit so hard, they wondered if he was gonna be able to to play from that point on.

到了星期一，训练照常进行。

So on Monday, practice came along.

他们进行了录像分析，著名教练文斯·隆巴迪把克雷默安排在最前面，然后反复播放了克雷默那次几乎让明星四分卫丧命的阻截失误，一共放了三十遍。

They have film session, and Vince Lombardi, the famous coach, put Kramer right at the front, and then he showed the video of Kramer blowing the block that almost killed the star quarterback about 30 times.

到了这个地步，克雷默说，我想这大概是我待在绿湾包装工队的最后一天了。

And that it got to the point where Kramer said, I guess this is my last day with the Green Bay Packers.

我要收拾我的 locker 了，因为教练为什么要当着所有队友的面这样羞辱我？

I'll be clearing my stuff out of my locker because why is the coach doing this, humiliating me with all the teammates there?

他坐在那里，想象着也许该开始清理自己的储物柜了，这时，没人的时候，一只手臂搭在了他肩上。

So he's sitting there, flash forward, he's sitting at his locker thinking maybe it's time to start clearing this locker out, and an arm comes around him when nobody's there.

是文斯·隆巴迪对克雷默说：你可能在想，我为什么要这样对你。

And it's Vince Lombardi who says to Kramer, you're probably wondering why I did that to you.

他说：我知道你有潜力，你再也不会犯这样的错误了。

He goes, I know that you have greatness in you, and you'll never make that mistake again.

你说得对，我们在日常生活中，有无数机会让遇到的人感受到他们的存在很重要。

You say that as people going about our lives, we have endless opportunities to offer a sense of mattering to the people we meet.

我明白，你哥哥曾经遇到一位非常有名的人，那人花时间让他觉得自己很重要。

I understand that your brother once met a very famous person who took the time to make him feel like he mattered.

给我讲讲这个故事吧。

Tell me that story.

是的。

Yeah.

这是关于我弟弟格伦的故事，我最小的弟弟。

It's a story of my brother, Glenn, my youngest brother.

他决定把当摄影师助手当作自己的爱好。

And he decided to become a photographer's assistant as his hobby.

有一次他告诉我，他们曾在安大略省汉密尔顿举办一场活动，要为总统比尔·克林顿拍照。

And one time he told me that they had an event in Hamilton, Ontario, and it involved taking photos of president Bill Clinton.

他正在帮忙，那里有那位名人，还有所有特勤人员和女性。

And he's helping out, and there's the there's the famous guy and all the Secret Service guys are there and women.

活动结束时，他们正在收尾，他被人拍了拍肩膀，回头一看，是比尔·克林顿。

And at the end, when they're wrapping up, he he gets a tap on his shoulder, and he turns around, and it's Bill Clinton.

比尔·克林顿对他说：你听过我的故事。

And Bill Clinton says to him, you've heard my story.

现在告诉我你的事。

Tell me about you.

你最近怎么样？

What's going on with you?

我觉得这太了不起了。

And I thought that that's amazing.

人们总在谈论什么是魅力。

And people talk about what charisma is.

我认为，有时候魅力就是你对人普遍感兴趣。

I think sometimes charisma is that you're just generally interested in people.

这不是假的。

It's not fake.

这不是虚伪的。

It's not phony.

你知道，这对我哥哥来说意义重大，我总觉得他有时并没有感受到自己很重要。

And, you know, that that made all the difference in the world to to my brother who I I have a feeling at times that had not felt that way in terms of being significant.

戈登·弗拉特是加拿大约克大学的心理学家。

Gordon Flat is a psychologist at York University in Canada.

他是《归属感心理学：理解人类对重要性的需求》一书的作者。

He's the author of The Psychology of Mattering Understanding the Human Need to be Significant.

戈登，非常感谢您今天做客《隐性大脑》。

Gaurd, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你有没有在生命中经历过一种被彻底忽视的感觉？

Have you experienced a moment in your life when you felt profoundly invisible?

你有没有找到一种方法，让自己不再感到被忽视，或者帮助他人感受到被看见？

Have you found a way to not feel invisible or to help others feel seen?

如果你有一个故事或问题想与《隐性大脑》的听众分享，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a story or a question you would like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

把它发送到我们的邮箱：feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：invisible。

Use the subject line invisible.

我们回来后，将分享一些关于自然治愈力量的非凡故事。

When we come back, remarkable stories about the healing power of nature.

我看到了秋天的落叶，橙色、红色、黄色和各种棕色，美得令人惊叹。

I saw the fall leaves, the oranges and reds and yellows and shades of brown, and it was just so gorgeous.

我对自己说，这就是我今后要为之生活的一切，这就足够了。

And I just said to myself, that's what I'm going to live for and that is enough.

秋天树叶的美就已足够。

The beauty of the fall leaves is enough.

此外，心理学家马克·伯曼重返节目，回答听众关于我们与大自然关系的问题。

Plus psychologist Mark Berman returns to the show to answer listener questions about our relationship to the great outdoors.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

不久前，我们邀请听众分享他们与自然相处的经历。

Some time ago, we invited listeners to share stories about their experiences with nature.

其中一位回应者是一位名叫斯蒂芬妮的女性。

One person who responded was a woman named Stephanie.

她告诉我们，她18岁时遭遇了一场严重的车祸。

She told us about a time when she was 18 and got into a serious car crash.

当时斯蒂芬妮正在开车，她的男友坐在副驾驶座上。

Stephanie was driving and her boyfriend was in the passenger seat.

两人都被甩出了车外。

They were both flung from the car.

斯蒂芬妮的背部五节椎骨骨折，但最终康复了。

Stephanie broke five vertebrae in her back but recovered from her injuries.

她的男友瘫痪了。

Her boyfriend was paralyzed.

他的脖子骨折了。

His neck was broken.

尽管这是一场意外，而且可能无法避免，但我完全把责任归咎于自己。

And although it was an accident and it was probably unavoidable, I felt entirely responsible for that outcome.

我感觉自己作为一个人都毫无价值。

And I just felt worthless as a human being.

我不再想活下去了。

I didn't want to live anymore.

我只是觉得我对这个世界没有任何价值。

I just didn't feel that I brought any value to the world.

我拼命地寻找活下去的理由。

And I was just desperately looking for something to live for.

后来，Stephanie发现自己来到了一家咖啡馆。

Sometime later, Stephanie found herself in a cafe.

那时是中西部的秋天。

It was autumn in the Midwest.

咖啡馆外的树上，树叶正在变色。

The leaves were changing color on the trees outside the cafe.

她喝着咖啡，凝视着那些树叶。

She looked at them as she drank her coffee.

我看到了橙色、红色、黄色和各种棕色，美得令人惊叹。

And I saw the the oranges and reds and yellows and shades of brown, and it was just so gorgeous.

我就对自己说，这就是我要为之活着的理由，这就足够了。

And I just said to myself, that's what I'm going to live for, and that is enough.

秋天树叶的美就已足够。

The beauty of the fall leaves is enough.

现在我57岁了，过着充实的生活，非常庆幸大自然真的救了我的命。

And now I'm 57, and I've had a great life, and I'm so glad that nature really saved my life.

我们很多人都会经历失去和挫折。

Many of us will experience losses and setbacks.

我们会与深爱的人告别，也会离开热爱的工作。

We'll say goodbye to people we adore and to jobs we love.

我们会面对疾病和伤痛。

We'll face illness and injury.

在这样的时刻，我们常常忘记的是大自然给予我们的慰藉。

One thing many of us forget during such times is the solace offered by the natural world.

在芝加哥大学，马克·伯曼研究着我们与自然的关系。

At the University of Chicago, Mark Berman studies our relationship to nature.

他不久前曾做客我们一期名为《自然如何治愈我们》的节目。

He joined us some time ago on an episode titled How Nature Heals Us.

如果你错过了，可以在本播客的订阅源中找到该期节目，或访问 hiddenbrain.org。

If you missed it, you can find that episode in this podcast feed or at hiddenbrain.org.

今天，马克重返节目，回应我们收到的数百个故事和问题。

Today, Mark returns to the show to respond to some of the hundreds of stories and questions we received.

马克·伯曼，欢迎再次做客《隐藏的思维》。

Mark Berman, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

再次感谢你们的邀请。

Thank you again for having me.

马克，许多听众纷纷来信，分享自然对他们心灵带来的益处。

Mark, many listeners rolled in to share the benefits that nature has had on their minds.

你能再为我们回顾一下，研究人员关于自然如何影响我们的心理和情感的发现吗？

Can you remind us of what the researchers found about how nature affects us psychologically and emotionally?

是的。

Yeah.

我们以及其他人进行的大量研究都探讨了与自然互动如何改善你的注意力或专注力，人们还发现，与自然互动能让人感觉更好，可以改善情绪，甚至让你感到与整个世界更加紧密相连。因此，包括我实验室在内的许多研究者发现，与自然的互动还能让人感到与他人更亲近、与物理环境更紧密相连，并有助于促使你更深入地反思自己的想法。

And a lot of the research that that we've done and other people have done has looked at how interacting with nature can improve your attention or your ability to focus, and people also find that interacting with nature just makes people feel better, that it can improve your mood, that it can kind of even make you feel more connected to the rest of the world, And so many researchers, including researchers in my lab, have found that interactions with nature can also make you feel more connected to other people, more connected to the physical environment, and also kind of helps to make you more reflective in your thoughts.

因此，与自然互动的好处多种多样。

So there's just a multitude of benefits to interacting with nature.

我认为听众最常提到的主题是，自然能帮助他们在感到焦虑或不知所措时平静下来。

I think the most common theme we heard from listeners is that nature helps them calm down when they're feeling anxious or overwhelmed.

我们收到一位名叫珍妮弗的听众的来信，她说，当她感到压力大时，就会去拜访后院花丛中那些喜爱花朵的蜜蜂。

We heard from a listener named Jennifer who says that when she's stressed out, she visits the bees who love the flowers in her backyard.

我从未被蜇过，我只是听着它们的嗡嗡声，感受它们在我脸庞和手臂周围飞舞，它们真的、真的让我的心跳平静下来。

I've never been stung, and I just listen to the buzzing and feel them around my face and arms, and they really, really calm my heartbeat.

它们让我镇定下来。

They calm my nerves.

当我与蜜蜂完成这种交流后，我总会对它们说：谢谢。

And when I'm done communing with the bees, I always tell them, Thank you.

然后我回到屋里，心中只有一种宁静与平和，这种感觉唯有蜜蜂才能带来。

And then I go back inside, and I just have this sense of peace and calm that only bees can bring.

所以，马克，上世纪八九十年代进行了一系列研究，探讨自然在我们感到压力时对我们的影响。

So, Mark, there were a series of studies done in the 1980s and nineties that looked at how nature can affect us when we are feeling stressed out.

这些研究对你产生了很大的影响。

Those studies had a great influence on you.

研究发现了什么？

What did the research find?

是的。

Yes.

这些是罗杰·乌尔里希进行的一些具有开创性的研究，罗杰非常想知道与自然互动是否能帮助人们缓冲压力。他的做法是，先让人们观看一些会引发压力的图像，比如一张刀即将割伤手指的照片。然后，罗杰想了解的是：在展示这些压力图像后，如果再给人们展示自然景观的图片或影片，而不是城市环境的图片或影片，人们恢复到基础压力水平的速度是否会更快。结果发现，观看自然刺激后，人们恢复得比观看城市刺激时更快，这表明自然刺激能够帮助人们减压，甚至缓冲压力。

These were some really seminal studies done by Roger Ulrich, where Roger was really interested to see if interacting with nature could buffer people against stress, and what Roger did was he would show people some imagery that would cause people to feel kind of stressed, like looking at a picture of a knife that's about to cut somebody's finger, And Roger was then interested to see, okay, if after presenting people with these stressful images, if he then showed people pictures of nature or movies of nature versus pictures of a more of an urban environment or urban movies, he found that people returned more to baseline stress levels faster after seeing the nature stimulation compared to the urban stimulation suggesting that the natural stimulation could sort of de stress people or even buffer them against stress.

我想再回过头来谈谈你之前提到的一点，即在大自然中度过时光可以改善我们的注意力。

I'd like to circle back to something you mentioned earlier that spending time in nature can improve our attention.

你在这方面做过一些研究，马克。

You've done some research on this, Mark.

跟我讲讲吧。

Tell me about that.

是的，当然。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们做过一项研究，让参与者在一周内步行于自然环境中，另一周则步行于城市环境中。

So we had done a study where we had participants, and we had them walk in nature one week or walk in an urban environment a second week.

我们发现，当参与者在自然中步行时，他们的专注力比在城市环境中步行五十分钟提高了约20%。

And what we found was interesting that when participants walked in nature, they showed about a 20% improvement in their ability to concentrate compared to a fifty minute walk in a more urban environment.

这项研究还有一个有趣的发现：参与者甚至不需要喜欢自然环境就能获得这种益处。比如，我们在密歇根州安娜堡六月气温约80华氏度时安排人们步行，参与者非常享受这段旅程，注意力提升显著；但我们也安排了一些人在一月气温约25华氏度时步行，人们并不喜欢这种寒冷中的自然步行，但他们获得的注意力提升与六月的参与者一样。

And you know another interesting element to that study too was that participants didn't even need to like the nature interaction to get the benefit, so when we had people walk in June when it was about 80 degrees Fahrenheit in Ann Arbor, Michigan, participants really enjoyed the walk and they showed really large attention benefits, but we also had some participants walk in January when it was about 25 degrees Fahrenheit, and people did not like the walk in nature, but they showed the same attention improvement as the people that walked in June.

所以这非常有趣，你并不一定需要喜欢自然步行才能获得这种益处。

So that was very interesting that you didn't have to necessarily like the nature walk to get the benefit.

你还研究了自然如何影响我们的情绪。

You also looked at how nature can affect our moods.

我们听到了一位名叫贝齐的听众讲述自然与抑郁的故事。

We heard a story about nature and depression from a listener named Betsy.

我女儿在五个月大时被诊断出患有癌症，我陷入了深深的抑郁。

My daughter was diagnosed with cancer when she was five months old, and I fell into a really dark depression.

但无论温度如何，我每天都出去散步，我住在明尼苏达州，那里非常寒冷。

But what I did every day, no matter the temperature, and I live in Minnesota, so it's pretty cold, is go for a walk outside.

我认为这正是我能够度过如此艰难时光的原因之一。

And I think that is one of the reasons I was able to get through such an impossibly difficult time.

它帮助我回到当下，暂时脱离自我，而不是专注于令人恐惧的未来和当下。

It helped me get back to the moment and stay outside of myself for moments of time instead of focusing on the scary future and scary present.

我非常非常支持大自然，支持走出去散步。

I really, really am a huge advocate for nature and getting outside and walking.

我的女儿现在已经缓解两年了，我们全家每天都尽量出去散步，无论天气如何。

My daughter is now two years in remission, and my family tries to get out every day for that walk no matter the weather.

我很高兴贝琪的女儿情况好转了，马克。

I'm so glad that Betsy's daughter is doing better, Mark.

但让我印象深刻的是，她提到散步能让她暂时脱离自我。

But one thing that struck me about what she said is that walking helps her get outside of herself for a period of time.

大自然能帮助我们以不同的方式看待自己吗？

Does nature help us see ourselves differently?

是的。

Yes.

贝茜的这个故事非常动人。

And that's a very powerful story from Betsy.

而且，我也很高兴她的女儿也进入了缓解期。

And again, too, I'm very happy that that her daughter is in remission too.

而且，是的，我认为贝茜的直觉——置身自然中能让人少一些自我关注——确实是我们发现的事实。

And and, yes, I think what Betsy's intuition is about being in nature can get you sort of maybe less thinking about yourself is something that we actually find.

我们做过一些研究，让参与者在芝加哥的加菲尔德温室中散步，同时也在芝加哥的水塔商场这样一个舒适的室内空间中活动，结果有几项发现让我们印象深刻。

So we did some studies where we had people walk in an indoor nature conservatory in Chicago, the Garfield Conservatory, versus also interacting with a nice indoor space, the Water Tower Mall in Chicago, and a few things really struck us.

其中一点是，在自然环境中，人们更少关注自己，而更多关注他人，即使温室里的人数可能比商场里更少或相同。

So one is that in nature, people tended to think less about themselves and more about others, even though there might have been fewer or the same amount of people in the nature conservatory versus the mall.

这非常有趣，也与贝茜的说法一致。

So that was pretty interesting, and also kind of consistent with what Betsy was saying.

我们还发现，人们在自然中的想法更积极，更具创造性，并且感到与更广阔的世界联系更紧密，我认为这同样非常有趣。

We also found that people's thoughts were more positive in nature, their thoughts were a bit more creative, and they felt more connected to the larger world, which I think is also really interesting.

所以，与自然互动似乎确实能让人稍微少一些自我中心，更能感受到与物理世界以及周围人的联系。

So it does sort of seem like interacting with nature can sort of make people maybe be a little bit less egocentric and feel a little bit more connected to the physical world, but also to people around the world.

它可能帮助我们更人性化地看待彼此，其他研究也发现，与自然互动实际上能让人更把他人当人看，而不是去非人化他人。

It might help us to see each other as being a bit more human, which other studies have found too, that interaction with nature can actually make people to humanize other people rather than dehumanize other people.

我认为它还能让我们更紧密地连接到真实的自然环境，而我们知道，面对气候变化等问题，作为人类，加强我们与自然的关系将变得至关重要。

And I think it can make us feel more connected to the actual natural environment, and and we know that, you know, with the problems with climate change and things like that, that it's gonna be important for us as humans to strengthen our relationship to nature.

我们听到了许多听众分享，他们在失去亲人后，通过接触自然来疗愈。

We heard from many listeners who have dealt with the death of a loved one by seeking out nature.

我们无法播放所有收到的信息，但让我们来听其中两条。

We can't play all of the messages we received, but let's hear two of them.

以下是Anjali和Randy的分享。

Here are Anjali and Randy.

我丈夫去世时年仅43岁。

My husband died at the age of 43.

我当时37岁，还有一个将近两岁的孩子。

I was 37 with an almost two year old.

在大自然中散步、在海滩上、在树林里，这些经历都具有变革性。

And taking walks in nature, being at the beach, being in the woods was transformational.

我的伴侣在与帕金森病和痴呆症艰难抗争后刚刚离世，但我没有直接回家，而是决定去几分钟外的开阔沙漠地带。

My partner had just passed away after a difficult battle with Parkinson's and dementia, But instead of going directly to the house, I decided to go out to the open space desert just a few minutes away.

那里有许多巨大的石头和巨岩。

There are these really big stones and boulders out there.

我不知道它们是怎么来到那里的。

I don't know how they got there.

于是我决定站在其中一块石头上，任由情绪释放。

And I decided to just stand on one of them, and I let it go.

我把悲伤交给了大地，因为我一直相信，作为美洲原住民，大地能够治愈你。

And I gave my grief to the earth because I've always believed, as a Native American, that the earth heals you.

然后我走下来，真正地张开双臂抱住那块石头，尽情宣泄。

So then I got down and I literally just put my arms around that rock, and I just let it all out.

我哭泣、抽泣，低声祈祷，找到了安慰自己的方式。

And I cried and I sobbed and I said little prayers and found a way to comfort myself.

当我终于回到车里准备回家时，我注意到自己确实感觉轻松了一些，也更踏实了。

As I got back into my car to go home finally, I noticed I I did feel a little lighter, a little more grounded.

马克，这些故事如此有力而感人。

Mark, these are such powerful and moving stories.

有没有专门研究自然对哀悼者影响的科研成果？

Has there been any research specifically on the effects that nature can have on people who are grieving?

有。

Yes.

当然有。

Absolutely.

这些故事真的非常动人。

Those are incredibly powerful stories.

我感谢听众们分享这些故事，确实有研究探讨了与自然互动如何帮助人们度过哀伤期。在我为我的书《自然与心灵》做研究时，我了解到一些关于人们在自然中通过一种叫‘风之电话’的方式哀悼的有趣故事。所谓‘风之电话’，是一种大型实体电话，但没有连接任何线路。

So I I appreciate the listeners for sending them, and yes, there has been work looking at how interacting with nature can help people when people are grieving, and when I was doing some research for my book Nature and the Mind, I ran across some interesting stories of people who grieved in nature with something called a wind phone, and what a wind phone is it's this big physical phone, but it doesn't have a line.

它不与任何系统相连，人们将这种电话放置在美丽的自然环境中，作为一种隐喻，用来在大自然中与逝去的亲人对话。我觉得这真的非常、非常感人。

It's not connected to anything, and people were putting these phones out in beautiful nature to use sort of metaphorically to talk to loved ones when they were out in nature, and I just found that to be really, really powerful.

当你正在哀悼时，这与临床抑郁症并不完全相同，但感觉上有点像临床抑郁症。

And when you're grieving, it's not quite the same as clinical depression, but it sort of feels like clinical depression.

人们会反复思虑，会因为无法与逝去的亲人交谈而感到极度痛苦。

And people are going to be ruminating, and they're going be very upset not being able to talk to those loved ones.

我的意思是，大约十年前，我三位在世的祖父母在六个月内相继离世，那是一段非常艰难的时期。当你经历如此强烈的悲痛，或面临极其困难的时刻时，转向大自然往往能带来极大的慰藉。因此，我在那段时期也尝试去大自然中散步。毕竟，我们都是自然的一部分，正如我们的研究所显示的那样，身处自然中能让我们感到更紧密的联结，帮助我们重新看待事物。与自然的互动虽然无法让我们的亲人复活，但我认为，置身自然中能帮助我们更深切地感受到与逝者的联结，也更深刻地体会到我们都是自然世界的一部分——我们所有人都属于自然世界，而死亡，不幸地，也是自然世界的一部分，是我们每个人都将面对的。我认为，大自然能帮助我们获得这种宝贵的视角。

I mean I went through a time period about ten years ago when all three of my living grandparents died within six months of each other, and it was a very difficult time, and often when you're feeling such extreme grief, or you're having really really hard difficulties, it can be really really beneficial to turn to nature, and so I did try myself to walk in nature in these times, and again because we're all a part of nature, and as our research has shown, being in nature makes us feel more connected, it kind of can put things into perspective, and interactions with nature are not going to bring our loved ones back but I think being out in nature can help us to feel more connected to those loved ones and more connected to the natural world we're all part of the natural world and unfortunately death is is part of the natural world that we're all going to face that and I think that nature can kind of help to give us that that good perspective

当我们回来时，谈谈我们的文化观念如何塑造我们与自然的互动。

When we come back, how our cultural views shape our engagement with nature.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

我们有很多关于自然的成语和隐喻。

We have many idioms and metaphors about nature.

大地之母、生命之树、时间之河、分支的可能性。

Mother Earth, the tree of life, a river of time, branching possibilities.

所有这些都表明，我们对自然的体验是如何融入我们对世界的体验之中的。

All of these suggest the many ways our experience of nature is woven into our experience of the world.

马克·伯曼是芝加哥大学的一位心理学家。

Mark Berman is a psychologist at the University of Chicago.

他研究自然对我们心灵的影响。

He studies the effects that nature has on our minds.

我们讨论了自然如何在我们抑郁、压力大或悲痛时帮助我们。

We talked about how nature can help us when we are depressed or stressed or grieving.

还听到了听众们对我们文化与哲学上自然观的看法。

Also heard from listeners with thoughts about our cultural and philosophical views on nature.

其中一条留言来自丽莎。

One of those messages came from Lisa.

她来自加拿大，分享了她所属的原住民文化——梅蒂斯人的观点。

She's from Canada, and she shared the perspective of her indigenous culture, the Metis people.

我们所理解的是，我们是自然的一部分。

The thing that we understand is that we're a part of nature.

我们并非与自然分离。

We're not separate from nature.

因此，当我们身处水边或森林中时，会感到舒适，感到如家般自在。

And so when we are there surrounded by the water or the forest that we feel well, we feel at home.

我们明白，森林、水源、树木，都是我们的亲人。

We understand that the forest, the water, the trees, that they're relatives to us.

这就像是被家人包围着。

And so it's like being surrounded by family.

这非常具有疗愈作用。

It's very healing.

马克，你怎么看这种说法？

What do you think of this framing, Mark?

我们经常用‘自然界’这个短语来描述身处森林或海边的感觉。

We often use the phrase the natural world to describe what it's like to be in the woods or by the ocean.

身处自然之中，有一种天然的归属感。

There is something natural about being in nature.

正如丽莎所说，我们与自然融为一体，自然也与我们融为一体。

As Lisa says, we are one with it, and it is one with us.

是的。

Yes.

我认为丽莎提出的这个概念非常有力。

I think that's a very powerful concept that Lisa is bringing up.

我认为我们人类常常忽略的一点是，我们是在自然中进化而来的，而我们现在所构建的世界相当新颖且人工化。

And I think one thing that we sort of forget about as humans is that we evolved in nature, and the world that we've kind of constructed right now is pretty new and pretty artificial.

我喜欢跟人开玩笑说，自然界中没有直线。

I like to joke with people that there are no straight lines in nature.

直线是人类发明的，而我们生活在一个由直线和方盒子构成的世界里。

Humans invented straight lines, and we live in this straight line, boxy world.

我认为我们逐渐与自然以及我们所演化出的环境产生了疏离。

And I think we kind of distance ourselves from nature and from this environment that we evolved in.

我认为当我们重返自然时，会感到一种舒适，可能是因为这些正是我们演化所适应的环境，也是我们大部分进化历史中所处的环境。

And I think when we go back into nature, we feel this comfort possibly because those are environments that we evolved in, and that we spent most of our evolutionary history in.

许多文化，尤其是许多原住民文化，都非常理解和重视自然，真正懂得自然。

Many cultures, like many indigenous cultures, really understood and valued nature, and really understood nature.

在我们建造了一个高效容纳人类、高效运输货物的世界的同时，也逐渐与我们的家园环境疏远了，我认为现在我们或许该停下来想一想：我们已经与自然太过脱节，必须以极大的规模将自然重新带回我们的生活。

As we've built a world to house people efficiently, and move goods efficiently, we've kind of distanced ourselves from our home environment, and I think now we maybe need to take a moment and think actually we've become too divorced from nature, and that we need to really bring nature back into our lives at a very, very big scale.

我们收到了一位名叫艾莉森的听众的留言，她谈到了我们赋予自然的种种人性特质。

We received a message from a listener named Alison about the many ways in which we imbue nature with human qualities.

2011年我丈夫去世后，我每天开车往返上班。

When my husband died in 2011, I was driving back and forth to work after that.

当时我最先注意到的就是群山变得格外突出。

And immediately, the first thing, like, that I noticed was how prominent the mountains became.

一边是圣戈尔吉奥山，另一边是鲍尔迪山。

And I had, like, San Gorgonian on one side, Mount Baldy's on the other side.

有

There's

我觉得

I think

甚至还有圣哈辛托山。

there's even San Jacinto.

所以有三个不同的山脉。

So there's three different mountain ranges.

当我开车去上班时，我会经过每个山脉的不同景色，这些山变得有人格化了。

And as I would drive to work, I would pass by the different views of each different mountain range, and the mountains became personified.

它们象征着稳定与力量。

And they stood for stability and strength.

我相信，当时在我极度悲伤的时候，我赋予了它们生命。

And they I'm sure, you know, I animated them in my intense sorrow at the time.

因此，它们让我觉得，你知道，我会好起来的。

And so they made me feel like I, you know, was gonna be okay.

马克，谈一谈这个。

Talk a moment about this, Mark.

我们看待湖泊，不仅仅把它当作一潭水。

We don't see a lake as just a body of water.

我们觉得它是宁静的。

We see it as peaceful.

我们看待火山，也不仅仅把它当作一种地质现象。

We don't see a volcano as just a geological phenomenon.

它仿佛具有自己的能动性。

It feels like it has agency.

兰迪告诉我们，当他悲痛时拥抱一块巨石，那块石头象征着无常中的稳定。

Randy told us about how when he hugged a boulder in his grief, it stood for stability in the midst of impermanence.

自然界对我们产生的某些影响，会不会是因为我们自身倾向于将世界拟人化？

Is it possible that some of the effects that nature has on us is because of our own tendency to anthropomorphize the world?

这是个有趣的想法。

It's an interesting idea.

人类天生就倾向于将自然世界拟人化。

Think humans do naturally do a lot of anthropomorphizing of the natural world.

而艾莉森、兰迪或安贾莉在经历深切悲痛时，或许让人们对自然世界有了稍微不同的看法。

And Alison or Randy or Anjali, in their intense grief, maybe it kind of opened people their eyes a little bit to see the natural world in maybe a different way.

我记得在安娜堡的巴顿公园有一棵大树，是一棵巨大的橡树，我偶尔会跟它说说话。每当我遇到烦恼或特别困扰的事情时，我喜欢去巴顿公园散步，经过那棵树。那棵树仿佛蕴含着许多智慧，它可能已经存在了两百年。而艾莉森提到的那些山脉，已经在那里存在了成千上万年，这其中自有某种深意。

I remember I had my tree in Barton Park in Ann Arbor, a big, big oak tree that I kind of used to talk to a little bit, but whenever I had some troubles or things that were really bothering me, I did like to walk in Barn Park and walk by that tree, and that tree seemed like it had a lot of wisdom, and that tree had probably been around for two hundred years, and those mountains that Allison has talked about have been there for thousands and thousands of years, and there's just something about that.

它们存在了如此之久，几乎让人觉得它们承载着某种智慧。再次让我们意识到，我们只是比自身更宏大事物中的一部分。

They've been there for so long that it almost seems like they carry some kind of wisdom, and again, just see that we're just a part of something bigger than ourselves.

我们收到听众的一个批评意见是，我们最初的对话将自然浪漫化了，马克。

One critique that we received from listeners is that our original conversation romanticized nature, Mark.

一位听众从城市搬到了乡村，写道：‘现在，对我来说，漫步自然是一种高压体验。’

One listener moved from a city to a rural area and writes, for me now, walking in nature is a high stress situation.

我和我的狗都高度警觉，时刻留意郊狼、豪猪、臭鼬、獾、熊、山狮，以及最糟糕的——那些没有拴绳的狗的主人。

My dog and I are hypervigilant, always on the lookout for coyotes, porcupines, skunks, badgers, bears, mountain lions, and worst of all, humans with unleashed dogs.

在我看来，你的嘉宾可能没有在那些真实存在危险的自然环境中待过足够长的时间，比如有野兽出没，还有那些意识到周围无人、可以为所欲为的疯狂人类。

In my opinion, your guest maybe hasn't spent enough time in natural settings where there are very real dangers such as wild animals and crazy humans that realize they can get away with anything because there is no one around to call for help.

漫步自然并非万能良药。

Walking in nature is not a panacea.

你觉得呢，马克？

What do you think, Mark?

我们是否有很多人把自然浪漫化了？

Is there a risk that many of us romanticize nature?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得那位听众的观点非常有意思，我绝对不想把所有自然体验等同起来。

I think it's a really interesting point from that listener, and I I definitely don't want to equate all nature experiences.

我的意思是，当我们发表论文时，人们常问：那野火呢？如果你在自然中被熊追呢？

I mean sometimes when we publish our papers people ask us, what about a wildfire, or what if you're in nature being chased by a bear?

在我的书《自然与心灵》中，我提到过一次在自然中完全无法带来恢复体验的经历：那是我在大烟山徒步时，我们爬上一座山峰后决定走一条不同的下山路线，结果发现这条路线比上山的路长了三倍，这意味着我们开始在黑暗中徒步，情况非常糟糕。

In my book Nature and the Mind, I talk about one experience that I had in nature that was not restorative at all, and that was when I was hiking in the Smoky Mountains, and we were hiking up this one peak, and we decided to take an alternative route down, and it turned out that the path was three times longer than the one that we had taken on the way up, which meant that we started to hike in darkness, and it was terrible.

那完全谈不上恢复，我们所有人都开始互相争吵，要安全下山、避免彼此冲突，耗费了大量心理能量，整个过程一点也不愉快。

It was not restorative at all, and we all started to fight with each other, and it really took a lot of mental energy to navigate our way down, and not get into fights with each other, so it was not pleasant at all.

正如这位听众所说，如果你在大自然中感到不安全，我们就认为它不会具有恢复作用。

As the listener says, if you don't feel safe in nature, we don't think it's going to be restorative.

如果你总觉得需要回头张望，我们就认为它不会具有恢复作用。

If you feel like you have to be looking over your shoulder, we don't think it's gonna be restorative.

因此，我们所讨论的自然体验，是指那些你感到安全、可以任由思绪飘荡、无需时刻保持警惕的自然体验。

So the kind of nature experiences that we've been talking about are the kinds of natural experiences where you feel safe, you can let your mind wander, you don't have to be so vigilant.

我想表达的是，大自然非常重要，我们需要找到方法，即使在高度城市化的生活中，也要更多地将自然融入日常。

I think what I'm saying is that nature is very important, and we need to figure out ways to incorporate more nature into our lives even if those lives are in a very kind of urban environment.

我们听到了一位名叫凯·伯德的听众分享，她谈到如何通过观察自然的循环来理解自己生活中的起伏。

We heard from a listener named Kay Bird who talked about how dealing with the cycles of nature can help us see the cycles in our own lives.

在她生日那天，经历了一段痛苦的离婚后，她前往一个宁静的山地度过一整天。

On her birthday, following a very painful divorce, she visited a peaceful mountain spot to spend the day.

那是十月，天空湛蓝，秋叶绚丽。

It was October with a bright blue sky and gorgeous autumn leaves.

但突然间，倾盆大雨从天而降。

But suddenly, sheets of rain started pouring down.

我只是陷入了一种彻底释放、大哭的漩涡，把所有刚经历的事情都倾泻了出来。

I just went down this, like, purge, cry, rabbit hole of, like, everything that I had just been through.

我感觉自己是在和大自然一起哭泣。

And I felt like I was crying with the nature.

当雨势终于减弱时——这完全出乎我的意料——我才意识到，哦，这雨不会下整整一天。

And when it finally eased, which I was not expecting, it was like, oh, this isn't gonna last all day.

我根本没想到会这样。

I had no idea.

突然间，云层散开，我眼前出现了一座壮丽的山峰，阳光穿透云层，一道绚丽的彩虹横跨在我面前的河流之上。

Suddenly, the clouds are parted and I'm staring at this beautiful mountain with these sun rays coming through and a flipping rainbow bridging across the river in front of me.

这景象只持续了一分钟。

This it just lasted a minute.

你必须经历过这场雨，才能看到它。

So you had to have gone through the rain to see it.

你必须熬过这场风暴，才能见到那道彩虹。

Like, you had to have stayed through the storm to see that rainbow.

所以我觉得，那一天我的内心发生了根本性的转变。

So I feel like something in me fundamentally shifted that day.

这是凯·伯德的另一个动人故事，它让我想起了我的导师史蒂夫和蕾切尔·卡普兰所做的研究，他们研究了园丁群体，探讨园艺如何对人有益。他们发现，一些园丁会在花园里使用杀虫剂和各种化肥，而另一些园丁则更倾向于顺应自然，让一切顺其自然。史蒂夫曾经告诉我，似乎那些不使用杀虫剂和化肥、让自然自行发展的园丁，从中获得的益处更多。他认为原因在于，当你顺应自然时，就不会对一切事物过于执着；但如果你试图对自然环境施加过多控制，一旦植物死亡或生长不如预期，就会感到沮丧。而如果你能放下这种控制欲，只是说：‘我就随它去吧’，反而会感到一种解脱——这让我联想到凯·伯德的经历。

That's another powerful story by Kay Bird, and it reminds me of some research that my mentors Steve and Rachel Kaplan did where they were looking at people who are gardeners, and looking to see how gardening could also be beneficial for people, and what they noticed was that some gardeners used pesticides and different kinds of fertilizer in their garden, and other gardeners kind of just did it more organically and just kind of let nature run its course, and Steve used to tell me that it seemed like there was more benefits for the gardeners who are gardening without the pesticides and the fertilizers that were just letting nature take its course compared to the gardeners who are gardening with fertilizers and pesticides, and why he thought that was the case was because when you're letting nature just take its course you're not so tied to everything, but if you're trying to exert so much control over that natural environment, if a plant dies or something doesn't grow accordingly the way you like it's going to be distressing, But if you can just kind of take that level of control away and just say, you know, I'm just going to let it go the way it's going to go, it's sort of freeing, and that kind of reminds me of Kay Bird's experience.

她对下雨根本无法控制。

She have any control of the rain coming.

雨下了。

The rain came.

天气很不舒服，但她还是顺从了。

It was uncomfortable and she just kind of succumbed to it.

随后她得到了回报。再次说明，身处自然之中，能帮助我们接受一个事实：我们并不总能掌控一切，事情也并非总能如愿。

Then she kind of got this reward and again being in nature can kind of just help us to accept that we're not always in control and that things aren't always going to work out.

但这就是生活，也是自然的一部分。

But that's part of life and that's part of nature.

我们回来后，你该不该在树林里开重要的商务会议？

When we come back, should you take your important business meeting in the woods?

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

马克·伯曼是芝加哥大学的心理学家。

Mark Berman is a psychologist at the University of Chicago.

他是《自然与自然如何改善认知、身体和社会福祉的科学》一书的作者。

He is the author of Nature and the The Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-being.

马克斯的研究人员发现，人类对自然界中存在的特征有着深刻的吸引力，这些特征不仅包括树木、草地和水，还包括更抽象和微妙的元素。

Marx researchers found that humans are profoundly drawn to features that are found in nature not just trees and grass and water, but more abstract and subtle elements.

例如，在一项研究中，他和他的同事向志愿者展示了不同类型建筑的图片，一些有曲线边缘，一些有直边。

In one study, for example, he and his colleagues showed volunteers pictures of different types of buildings, some with curved edges and some with straight edges.

这些建筑的外立面和内部空间并没有明显的自然元素，但有些大楼的边缘更弯曲。

The building facades and building interiors had no overt nature to them, but some of the buildings had more curved edges to them.

你可以想象巴塞罗那高迪设计的建筑，有很多弯曲的线条，而相比之下，一些更具粗野主义风格的建筑则非常方正，只有直线。

Like you can imagine a building by Gaudi in Barcelona that has a lot of curved edges versus maybe a building with more brutalist architecture that just is very boxy with just straight lines.

结果发现，在建筑中，如果建筑物的边缘更弯曲，人们会认为这些建筑更自然、更喜欢它们，并觉得它们更令人安心。

And it turns out in architecture if the building has more curved edges to it, people actually rate those buildings as being more natural, and they like those buildings more, and they rate them as more comforting.

这表明，模仿自然的模式——比如弯曲的线条、分形结构，或许还有一些色彩——如果我们能在人造环境中复制这些特征，也可能带来心理上的益处。

So this suggests that there's something about mimicking the patterns of nature, the curved edges, the fractalness, maybe some of the colors, that if we mimic that in our built environment, that might also confer psychological benefits.

马克，你在这里的意思是，即使我们身处像建筑这样人为设计的环境中，只要这些建筑模仿了自然，我们依然能获得一些来自自然界的益处。

What you're saying here, Mark, is that even when we are in human designed environments like buildings, we can still gain some of the benefits of the natural world if these buildings are modeled after nature.

听众们提出的另一个类似观点是，并非每个人都能轻易接触到大自然。

A similar theme that listeners brought up is that not everyone has easy access to the great outdoors.

如果你住在城市里，可能很难到达有树林的地方。

If you live in a city, maybe it's hard to get to a wooded area.

不过我认为，大多数人至少可以在自己住的地方种一盆花或蔬菜。

Now I would argue that most people, of course, can at least plant a pot of flowers or vegetables wherever they live.

微型的自然是否会对我们的心理产生同样的影响？

Does nature in miniature have the same effects on our minds?

另一个很好的问题，我认为它确实能带来益处。

Another great question, and I would say it can have benefits.

所以我认为最好的做法是去真实的自然环境中，但如果你无法接触真实的自然，能否通过窗户观察自然呢？

So I would say that the best thing you can do is go out in real nature, but if you don't have access to go out in real nature, can you look at real nature out of a window?

如果无法从窗户看到真实的自然，能否把真实的自然带进家里？如果因为光照不足无法把真实的自然带进家里，可以在家中或办公室摆放假植物；即使你不想在家中或办公室摆放假植物，我们发现，仅仅模仿自然的某些模式——比如曲线边缘和某些分形结构——体现在抽象艺术作品中，或者在地毯、桌面上模仿这些自然纹理，也可能带来一些心理益处。

And if you can't look at real nature out of the window can you bring some real nature into the home, and if you can't bring real nature into the home because maybe you don't have good enough lighting you can have fake plants in the home or office, And even if you don't want to have fake plants in the home or office, we find that even just mimicking some of the patterns of nature like curved edges and some of the fractalness in some kind of abstract artwork or mimicking these patterns and other textures like in carpeting or in tables might also confer some psychological benefits.

因此，我在《自然与心灵》一书中提到的另一件事是，我们可以尝试将所有空间‘自然化’，也就是说，让我们的室内空间也充满自然元素。

So that's another thing that I write about in the book Nature and the Mind is that we can try to naturize all of our spaces, and that means naturizing our indoor spaces.

在我家的办公室里，由于自然光照不足，我确实摆放了一些假植物。

So in my home office where I don't have good natural light, I do have fake or artificial plants in my office.

在家中其他光照充足的地方，我们会摆放大量植物，甚至一些大型的、美观的植物供我们观赏；但同样，由于很多人难以轻易接触自然，知道可以通过自然景观照片、植物、假植物，甚至仅仅模仿这些自然模式来获得部分益处，确实令人感到安慰。

In other areas of our home where we do have good natural light, we do tend to place a lot of plants there, and even rather large plants that are beautiful for us to look at, but again because a lot of us don't have easy access to nature, it's really comforting to know that we can get some of these benefits from pictures of nature, plants, fake nature plants, or even just mimicking some of these natural patterns.

你认为，当我们外出时，甚至可能有益于把设备留在家里，或许在散步时也不与朋友见面或交谈。

You believe that when we go outside, it might even be beneficial to leave our devices behind and perhaps even refrain from meeting up with a friend or engaging in conversation while going for a walk.

为什么呢，马克？

Why is this, Mark?

在我们最初的实验中，让参与者在自然中散步时，我们会收走他们的手机。

So when we did our initial studies having people walk in nature, we took participants' cell phones from them when they went on the walk.

我们这样做的原因是，不希望人们在自然环境中打电话闲聊或发短信，因为那样会分散他们对自然中柔和而迷人刺激的注意力。

And the reasons why we did that is because we didn't want people chitchatting on the phone or texting on the phone when they were out in the natural environment because that would distract them from the softly fascinating stimulation in nature.

我们希望他们的全部注意力都能被自然中这种有趣的刺激所吸引，而不被干扰。

We wanted all of their attention to be captured by this interesting stimulation in nature and for people not to be distracted.

人们经常问我，那如果我戴耳机听播客或音乐呢？

People often ask me, well what about earbuds if I'm listening to a podcast or music?

我也建议你不要这样做。

And I would suggest don't do that either.

你希望听到自然中的所有声音，也希望你的全部注意力都能被自然中这种有趣的刺激所吸引。

You want to be able to hear all the sounds of nature as well, and you want all of your attentional capacity to be able to be captured by the interesting stimulation in nature.

我们许多人花大量时间在屏幕上，通常是因为工作或学习需要使用电脑。

So many of us spend a lot of time on screens, often because we're using computers for work or for school.

我们之前听到了听众丽莎的分享。

We heard from listener Lisa earlier.

她是一位来自加拿大的原住民女性，她给我们所有人提了一个建议。

She is the indigenous woman from Canada, and she has a suggestion for all of us.

我们所有人都得工作。

We all have to work.

所以在我工作时，如果有人联系我安排商务会议，我经常会问他们是更喜欢在咖啡馆见面，还是更喜欢在小径上见面。

And so in my work when I'm contacted for a business meeting, oftentimes I will ask people if they prefer to meet in a coffee shop or would they prefer to meet on the trail.

我们会去森林里见面，边散步边进行商务会谈。

And we'll meet in the forest, and we'll do a forest walk as we have our business meeting and do our talking that way.

大约95%的时间，人们都会选择和我在森林里见面，这让我觉得他们也渴望与自然建立联系。

I'd say about 95% of the time people choose to meet me in the forest, and for me that shows me that they also desire to have that connection with nature.

因此，我能做这样一件小事来帮助人们获得健康，这让我感到非常欣慰。

So it makes me feel good that I can do that one small thing to try to help bring wellness into people's lives.

马克，你觉得丽莎的建议怎么样？

What do you think of Lisa's suggestion, Mark?

我们是不是该放弃角落里的办公室，去海边散步呢？

Should we ditch the corner office for the walk on the beach?

我觉得丽莎说的很有道理。

I think there's a lot of truth to what Lisa is saying.

实际上，我有一个以前的学生，凯特·谢尔茨，她在研究那些可能正在争吵的伴侣。

And actually, have a student, former student Kate Schertz, who's looking at couples who might be having an argument.

如果他们选择在大自然中，比如在徒步散步时讨论他们的冲突，这种做法带来的益处比在城市环境或办公室里讨论要更好。

And if they try to talk through their conflict in nature, like on a nature walk that yields better benefits than trying to talk through their conflict or their issues in a more urban environment or in an office setting.

因此，也许在自然中散步时开会，会比在办公室里更有效率。

So it's possible that you might have a more productive meeting walking in nature than you would in an office setting.

为什么不在自然中散步时尝试这样做呢？

Why not try to do that on a walk in nature?

这听起来真是个非常好的主意。

It seems like a really good idea.

你讲讲你五岁儿子的故事吧，他精力特别旺盛。

You tell the story of your five year old son who has a lot of energy.

有一天早上，他到处乱蹦乱跳。

And one morning, he was bouncing off the walls.

接着讲下去。

Pick up the story.

告诉我你做了什么。

Tell me what you did.

是的，这个故事一再发生。

Yeah, so he was this is a story that repeats itself.

他

He

精力充沛。

has

有很多精力。

a lot of energy.

我们并不反对科技。

And we're not anti technology.

我们让他在iPad上做一些事情，但我们会监控他，确保他不会花太多时间在上面。

We let him do some things on an iPad, but we try to monitor that he doesn't spend too much time on it.

他当时根本听不进去。

And he wasn't listening very well.

他变得有点烦躁和不耐烦。

He was getting a little bit irritable and impatient.

我就说够了，到此为止。

And I just said enough is enough.

我们要去伯恩汉索普小径，那里离我们家很近，我们就直接走过去。

We're going to go on the Burnhamthorpe Trail, which is very close to our house, and we're just going to walk over there.

他非常不愿意去，但我给他穿上了靴子，披上了夹克，然后我们出发了，大概在外面待了两个小时。

And he was very resistant to doing it, But I got his boots on, I got his jacket on, and we went, and we probably spent about two hours outside.

我们发现了一些蛇，这真的很有趣。

We found some snakes which was really interesting.

我们看了溪边的一些石头。

We looked at some rocks by the creek.

我们在小径上散步时，可以明显看到他的情绪和注意力随着我们在外面的每一分钟而逐渐改善。

We walked around on some trails, and his mood and his attention you could just see how much it was improving with every minute that we were out there.

在我儿子的学校，以前他们有长达四十五分钟的课间休息，孩子们可以到外面自由活动，但现在被缩短到了大约二十分钟。

At my son's school, they used to have a longer recess that was forty five minutes where they could go outside for forty five minutes and kind of do whatever they want, and now they've reduced that down to about twenty minutes.

老师们现在告诉我，他们发现学校里的行为问题比过去多了很多，他们认为这可能是因为孩子们户外活动的时间减少了。

And the teachers have now been telling me that they are having a lot more behavioral issues in school that they had in years past, and they're thinking part of that might be because the kids are not having as much time outside.

我认为这对父母、孩子、雇主和员工来说都非常重要——是的，这可能会占用一些在桌前工作的时间，但总体上你可能会获得更高的生产力，因为当人们重新坐下工作或上课学习时，他们的专注力会更强，从而更有效率。

And I just think this is something that's really, really important for parents, for kids, for employers and employees that, you know, yes, that might take some time away from the desk, but you might actually gain more productivity overall because when people then sit down to work or sit down in class to learn, they're going to have more ability to focus and then will be more productive.

马克·伯曼是芝加哥大学的心理学家。

Mark Berman is a psychologist at the University of Chicago.

他是《自然与心灵：自然如何改善认知、身体和社会福祉的科学》一书的作者。

He's the author of Nature and the Mind, the Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-being.

马克，非常感谢你今天再次做客《隐藏的思维》节目。

Mark, thank you so much for joining me again today on Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你，尚卡尔。

Thank you so much, Shankar.

这是我的荣幸。

It was my pleasure.

《隐藏的思维》由隐藏思维媒体制作。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media.

我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·夸雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥丁·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。

Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Odin Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury.

塔拉·博伊尔是我们的执行制片人。

Tara Boyle is our executive producer.

我是《隐藏的思维》的执行编辑。

I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor.

如果你喜欢《隐藏的思维》，请将这一集分享给你生活中一两位可能会觉得有趣或有用的人。

If you love Hidden Brain, please share this episode with one or two people in your life who would find it to be interesting or useful.

口口相传是帮助我们触达新听众、让他们与《隐藏的思维》节目中呈现的思想建立联系的有力方式。

Word-of-mouth recommendations are a powerful way to help us reach new listeners and connect them with the ideas that we feature on Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedantam。

I'm Shankar Vedantam.

很快再见。

See you soon.