你感受到爱了吗？

但还有一种叫ZQ，就是那种一个问题都不问的人。

But there's also what they call ZQ, which is the person who has zero questions.

那你属于ZQ评分里的哪一类？

And so how where are you on the ZQ scale?

你是那种一个问题都不问的人，还是问很多的？

Are you somebody who asks zero questions or a lot?

我觉得提问其实是一种被严重低估的社交能力。

Well, I think question asking is one of the most sort of underestimated social skill.

我经常跟我孩子说，如果你想交朋友，就多问别人关于他们自己的事，尤其是那些他们朋友关心的话题。

In fact, I I tell my kids, you know, like, if you wanna make friends, ask people questions about themselves, especially questions that about things that they, you know, that their friends care about.

对。

Yeah.

芝加哥大学的尼克·埃普利教授做过一些研究，发现人们总以为，如果问一些私人问题，会被觉得太冒犯、太爱打探了。

And so and in fact, Nick Epley, who's a professor at University of Chicago, has done these studies that show that people think that, like, if they ask personal questions, that they are gonna be perceived as kind of intrusive or too probing, too personal.

但事实上，我们大多数人其实都希望别人来问我们，想知道我们的生活、内心想法，比如我们对某件事的真实看法，或者童年经历是什么样的。

But actually, on average, we crave to be asked, like, we want to be asked about our lives, our inner lives, you know, what we really think about something, what our childhood was like.

我们不仅努力把自己表现得非常完美，吹嘘自己的成就、技能或天赋，还会刻意隐藏那些不吸引人、可能让人不爱的部分。

So not only do we try and present ourselves as as very beautiful or try and, you know, talk up our accomplishments or our skills or our talents, we also go to some lengths to hide parts of ourselves that are unappealing or might be unlovable.

说说这种策略吧。

Talk about this strategy.

我们常常隐瞒自己的缺点，只为让人更爱自己。

We often hide our blemishes in order to to feel more loved.

但这真的管用吗？

But does that work?

没错。

Right.

我们总觉得，要是对方知道了我的弱点、缺点，或者我做过那些糟糕的事，就不会再爱我了。

Because we think that that person wouldn't love me anymore if they kinda knew about this weakness of mine, this fault of mine, or this bad deed that I that I made.

当然，我们也不总是错的。

And, you know, we're not always wrong.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，有时候人们确实会因为某些特质或行为而讨厌别人，但我们也经常这么做。

I mean, sometimes people really do dislike others for for certain traits or behaviors, but we do it.

我们有点做得过头了。

We sort of overdo it.

做得太多了。

We do it too much.

感受到被爱的关键之一，是让对方真正了解你。

And one of the keys to feeling loved is being known to the other.

如果你一直藏着自己的脆弱、矛盾，或者那些杂乱的想法，你就不会感到被爱，因为你总会怀疑：如果他们真的了解真实的我，还会爱我吗？

And if you're hiding, you know, your vulnerabilities, your contradictions, your sort of messy insights from the other person, you won't feel loved because you'll always wonder if they really knew me, then they wouldn't love me.

其实，当我们以合适的节奏，慢慢展现这些矛盾或缺点——不是一下子全倒出来——当对方已经对你有了一些了解之后，我们往往反而更受欢迎。

And it turns out that we often when we disclose or show some of those contradictions or blemishes at the right pace, right, we don't sort of dump them all at once When the person already knows us a little bit, we often actually better liked.

你知道吗？有个著名的例子，肯尼迪在猪湾事件后承认了错误，结果他的支持率反而飙升了。

You know, there's this famous case when when JFK, after the Bay of Pigs, admitted to making a mistake, and and his approval ratings shot up.

所以有时候，承认失败反而能让人更喜欢你。

So sometimes admitting failures can actually increase people's liking of us.

在人际关系里，索妮娅，我希望你喜欢的不只是我的成就和才华，更希望你能爱我那些真正脆弱的地方。

And, of course, in interpersonal settings, Sonja, you know, I want you to like me not just for my accomplishments and my talents, but I need the love in the places where I'm actually vulnerable.

如果我不向你展现我的脆弱和缺点，就像你说的，你所感受到的，只是对我能力与优点的欣赏，而不是爱我本来的样子。

And if I'm not actually sharing the places where I'm vulnerable or where I have blemishes, then as you say, all all I experience is that you're admiring me for my talents and my qualities, not for what, you know, what what makes me me.

所以你觉得自己被钦佩。

So you feel admired.

你感觉是被折服了，没错。

You feel, yeah, like you're impressed.

你对对方的能力感到佩服，但并没有真正感受到被爱。

You're impressed at the other person, you don't actually feel loved.

想想什么是无条件的爱，其实说白了，无条件的爱就是，即使你有缺点、有瑕疵，依然被爱着。

When you think about the the the definition of unconditional love, I mean, that's very that's basically what unconditional love is, is that we're loved despite our blemishes and some of our flaws.

很多人在关系中做的事，其实都属于表演，而不是真正的连接。

Talk about the idea that a lot of what we're doing when we are engaged in relationships really falls under the realm of performance rather than connection.

你刚才提到的那些策略——炫耀收入、名片、财富、才华、讲故事的本事、讲笑话的水平，这些全都是在表演。

Because when you talk about all the different strategies that you're describing here, talking up our money, our cards, our wealth, our talents, our abilities, how well we tell stories, you know, how well we can tell jokes, all of this is performance.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是一种表现。

It's performance.

你知道，这其实很人性。

And you know, it's very human.

我们都这么做。

You know, we all do it.

也许这正是对话中的一种社交润滑剂。

And maybe that's part of the kind of social lubricant that is part of a conversation.

不过说真的，我觉得对话才是感受被爱的关键。

But but really, I by the way, and I think conversations are really the key to feeling loved.

你知道，一段关系本质上就是一系列对话组成的。

You know, when you think about a relationship, it's really a series of conversations.

所以，改变这些对话才是关键，让它们少一点表演成分，多一点真正的深入交流。

So so changing those conversations is the key and to make them a little bit less performative and more about, like, deeper connection, really having deeper conversations.

真正让你让对方感受到被爱的，是这些深入的对话。

It's really the the deeper conversations that make you make the other person feel loved.

当我真心关心你，山卡尔，问你最近几周有没有什么让你烦心的事，你觉得怎么样？

When I show genuine interest in you, Shankar, and ask you about, you know, maybe some has anything been worrying you, you know, the last few weeks?

你最近在想些什么？

What's been on your mind?

你知道的。

You know?

说说看，有没有哪个家人让你担心，或者让你特别开心？

What's you know, tell me about a relationship, a family member that you are worried about or that you're really happy about.

你知道的。

You know?

这类问题才能让我们真正拉近距离，而不是光想着给对方留下好印象。

Those are the kinds of questions that make us feel more connected to each other, you know, not just trying to impress each other.

我想知道，社交媒体在这些习惯和偏好中扮演了什么角色，索尼娅？

I'm wondering what role social media might play in these habits and and preferences, Sonja.

因为现在越来越多的人通过这些数字平台交流，而且他们总在别人面前展现某种形象。

Because now increasingly, you know, people talk to one another across these digital mediums, and they're presenting a face to other people.

你是在展示自己。

You're presenting yourself.

我喜欢这种音乐。

I'm someone who likes this kind of music.

我通常去这种类型的度假地。

I'm someone who basically goes on these kinds of vacations.

我穿这种风格的衣服。

I'm someone who wears these kinds of clothes.

我觉得，社交媒体在某种程度上放大了我们表现自我的倾向。

And I would imagine that in some ways, social media is amplifying our drive to perform.

对。

Mhmm.

没错。

Absolutely.

完全对。

Absolutely.

人们发的都是生活中最光鲜亮丽的瞬间。

People are posting sort of their most positive positive moments in their lives.

对吧？

Right?

看，这是我度假时拍的照片，状态特别好。

This is me on my vacation looking really great.

他们很少分享生活中那些真实、完整的部分。

They're not posting so much about the the sort of the fullness of their life.

没错。

Right.

但感受到被爱其实就像一场默契的互动，我觉得可以用两个人对话来理解——虽然实际可能不止两人，但先拿两个人的互动来说明比较清楚，关键是要能读懂彼此的氛围。

But feeling loved requires really kind of a dance, and I'd like to think of it in terms of two people talking, although it could be more than two people, but it's just easier to think about a dyad where you're really reading the room.

你真正读懂了对方，问出恰到好处的问题，让他们觉得被理解、被听见，让你展现出你真的在乎他们——这些在社交媒体上是做不到的。

You're really reading the other person and sort of and asking them just the right level of deep question where they feel like they're really seen and heard, where I am showing them I really care, you can't do that on social media.

你明白吧？

You know?

根本没法传达出那种感觉。

It just it doesn't come off.

你懂的。

You know?

所以，如果朋友在社交媒体上发了个特别搞笑的段子，我当然也会觉得有意思。

So that's why, like, if if a if a friend shares a really funny joke on social media, you know, I might appreciate it.

但要是他们直接发消息或发邮件把段子发给我，我才真觉得感动，因为我知道，他们是特意想到我的。

But I really appreciate it is they if they email me or they text me with that joke because I feel like they are you know, they're thinking about me.

他们觉得我会喜欢，这种用心才真正拉近了我们之间的距离。

They think that I would really appreciate that, and that that forges a connection between us.

总想暗示别人、等着被夸，拼命表现得光鲜亮丽、完美无缺，我们以为这样就能换来想要的爱。

Dropping hints and fishing for compliments, trying to look good and appear impressive, striving to present a polished and perfect image, we think such strategies will bring us the love we seek.

一旦没得到，我们就更拼命了。

When they don't, we double down.

我们努力表现得更完美，更了不起，连最微小的缺点都要藏起来。

We try to come across as even more perfect, be ever more impressive, hide the tiniest flaws.

那我们该怎么真正感受到被爱呢？

When we come back, how to feel loved for real.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

你有没有过那种感觉被忽视、不被爱的时刻？

Have you experienced moments in your life when you felt unloved?

即使在那些明明爱你的人身边，你也有过这种感觉吗？

Did you feel that way, even when you were around people who ostensibly loved you?

到底是什么具体的事情让你觉得没人关心你？

What was it specifically that made you feel uncared for?

如果你愿意和《隐性思维》的听众分享你的故事，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

把录音发到 feedbackhiddenbrain.org，邮件主题写上‘ feeling loved ’。

Email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org using the subject line feeling loved.

再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain.org。

Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

心理学家索尼娅·柳博米尔斯基和哈利·里斯是《如何感受到爱》一书的作者，书中探讨了五种让你获得更多真正重要东西的心态。

Psychologists Sonja Lyubomirsky and Harry Rees are the authors of How to Feel Loved, the five mindsets that get you more of what matters most.

索尼娅，我们刚才聊了人们在试图让别人关心自己时所采取的各种策略。

Sonja, we've been talking about the strategies people deploy when they're trying to feel cared for by others.

我们总想让自己变得更漂亮、更有成就，或者完美无缺。

We try to make ourselves more beautiful or more accomplished or flawless.

这些做法都基于一个想法：要想被爱，就得先变得值得被爱。

And these approaches are based on the idea that in order to be loved, we have to become more lovable.

你说，这种办法通常都行不通。

You say that this usually doesn't work.

相反，真正让我们感受到被爱的，往往是营造出合适的人际环境。

Instead, we are more likely to arrive at a state of feeling loved by creating the right relational conditions.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by this?

我的意思是，我们总觉得要想感受更多爱，就得改变自己，让自己更讨人喜欢，还要拼命展示自己的优点，掩盖缺点，或者试图改变对方。

What I mean by this is that we think that to feel more loved, we need to change ourselves, sort of make ourselves more lovable and also show how lovable we are, hide our our our blemishes, or we may maybe we change the other person.

也许我们会想方设法让对方更爱我们，更多地看到我们的好。

Maybe we try to get them to love us more, to somehow see our positive qualities more.

但其实，这事儿有个好消息。

But actually, it's good news.

哈里和我得出的结论其实是个好消息：你根本不需要改变自己。

The conclusion that Harry and I reached is actually good news, which is that you don't have to change yourself.

也不需要去改变对方。

You don't have to change the other person.

你需要改变的是对话方式。

What you have to change is the conversation.

一段关系，说到底就是一系列对话，这样想的话，压力会小很多。

And a relationship, again, is like a series of conversations, and it's a lot less overwhelming to think about it that way.

写这本书时，我们还有一个重要的发现：如果我想让自己感受到被爱，第一步其实是让对方感受到被爱。

And actually, another huge insight that that we had writing the book is that if I wanna make myself feel loved, the first step is try to make the other person feel loved.

这才是真正该优先做的事。

That's really that's really what comes first.

这听起来有点反直觉，因为我们总是习惯把注意力放在自己身上。

And it's it's counterintuitive because we think, like again, we were focusing ourselves.

其实这也很自然，从进化角度看，一出问题，我们本能地就会先检视自己，找哪里出了错。

It's very again, it's evolutionarily adaptive for us when there's a problem to focus on ourselves, figure out what's wrong.

但有一种情况，你真的需要把注意力放在对方身上，通过更深入了解他们，让对方感受到被爱。

But here's a situation where really the focus needs to be on the other person, to get the other person to feel loved by by getting to know them better.

那我们来仔细聊聊这些观点，先从最基本的想法开始。

So let's unpack some of these things, but let's start with the basic idea.

你认为，表现出对别人的兴趣，本身就是一种方式，能激发别人对你产生兴趣。

You argue that by demonstrating interest in others, that is one way, in some ways, of eliciting interest from others.

这里其实涉及一种互惠的潜规则。

So there is a norm of reciprocity that is at work here.

没错。

Exactly.

互惠原则是人类社会行为中最强大的原则之一。

And the reciprocity norm or reciprocity principle is really one of the strongest principles of human social behavior.

这个原则非常非常有力。

It's very, very powerful.

所以，如果我想让你帮我个忙，那我先去帮你一个忙。

This is why if I want you to do me a favor, you know, I I do you a favor.

对吧？

Right?

我们几乎很难不去回报，很难不回赠这份善意。

It's very, very hard to for us not to reciprocate, not to return the favor.

所以在对话中，当我对你，山卡尔，表现出真正的兴趣，认真听你说话，问一些表明我在听的问题，把你说的内容推向更深的层次，你就很自然地会被打动，反过来也想把这份关注还给我，问我关于我的生活、我的内心世界的问题，认真听我讲。

And so we're talking here in the context of conversation that when I show genuine curiosity to you, Shankar, and I really listen really listen to your answers, and I'm and I'm asking you questions that are that show that I'm listening, that take take what you said maybe to a new level, it's gonna be very compelling for you to to return that favor and to sort of direct that attention back to me and to ask me questions about my life, my inner life, and listen to me.

所以这就像一种来回往复的互动，一种动态的平衡。

And so it's kind of a it's a it's a dance or sort of a dynamic that goes back and forth.

当然，很多人会说，索贾和哈里告诉我，恰恰在我觉得不被爱的时候，在我觉得对方没尽到责任的时候，他们却让我去关注对方，而不是要求对方来关注我。

Now, of course, a lot of people are gonna say, you know, Sonja and Harry are telling me that precisely the point that I feel unloved, at precisely the point that I feel like this other person is dropping the ball, they are telling me I need to pay attention to that person instead of demanding that that person pay attention to me.

你和哈里用了一个比喻来解释这个观点，叫‘关系跷跷板’。

You and Harry came up with a metaphor to explain your idea that you call the relationship seesaw.

先解释一下‘跷跷板’这个说法。

First, explain the term seesaw.

你对这个词的拼写和这个比喻的运作方式，有个挺特别的理解。

You have an interesting spelling for the term and how this metaphor works.

是的。

Yes.

我想说的是，虽然我会这么做，但我也想肯定一点：确实，当你最需要被爱的时候，反而建议你去关心对方，这听起来有点反直觉，但恰恰就是这个时候最需要这样做——真正去问对方，为什么他们会这样反应。

And I but I wanna also I I'm gonna do that, but I also wanna sort of validate that, yes, it is it seems so counterintuitive kind of at at the lowest point where you really wanna feel loved to sort of advise people to show interest in the other person, but that's exactly what is needed and to really ask the person why is it that they are responding the way they they are.

其实就是对对方表现出好奇。

You know, it's showing curiosity in them.

顺便说一下，我也得提个提醒：有时候，这种方法并不管用。

And by way, and I do also wanna add a caveat, which is that once in a while, it's not gonna work.

它可能会失败。

It's gonna fail.

对方可能不会回应。

The other person is not going to respond.

他们不会给你回报。

They're not gonna reciprocate.

这种情况偶尔确实会发生。

That is gonna happen once in a while.

也许这意味着你需要离开一会儿，或者暂停一下，试试别的方法，又或者接受现实——事情本来就是这样。

And maybe that means that you need to walk away or you need to pause or you need to try something different or you accept the fact that that's how it's gonna be.

我不是那种盲目乐观的人，也不觉得这招每次都管用，但我觉得我们说的这个方法真的非常非常有效。

And so I don't I don't want I'm not a Pollyanna, and I don't think that it's gonna work a 100% of the time, but I think it's very, very powerful what we're talking about.

所以这个‘跷跷板’，我们拼写时的‘c’，就像水下的样子。

So the seesaw, we spell c like the like underwater.

我们这么拼，是因为想象水下有个跷跷板，你和我分别坐在两端，身体部分浸在水里。

And the reason we spell it this way is this idea that there's a seesaw underwater, and we sort of partially submerged and sort of say you and I are sitting on opposite ends of the seesaw.

大多数人都是沉在水下的，可能只有头顶或上半身露在外面。

So most of us are submerged, but maybe the the top of our heads or the top of ourselves are showing.

这其实就是世界上大多数人的状态。

And that's what's going on in most of the world.

我们彼此展示的，往往只是自己的一小部分， maybe 一些闪亮的、积极的方面。

Like, we're showing just like a little tip of ourselves to one another, just kinda maybe the shiny parts, maybe the positive qualities.

对吧？

Right?

我们大多数人，其实就像冰山一样。

Most of us, like, it's kind of the iceberg.

对吧？

Right?

都藏在水下。

It's under the water.

彼此之间根本看不到真实的自己。

We're not really showing to each other.

而接下来的想法是，我们依然坐在跷跷板上。

And then the idea is that, again, we're sitting on the seesaw.

当我对你表现出真正的好奇和关心，问你最近在想什么的时候，

And then when I show genuine curiosity and interest in you and I ask you a question, what has been on your mind lately?

我展现出温暖和接纳，

And I show warmth and and and acceptance.

你就会感受到一种温暖、信任和安心，就好像我往下压了跷跷板的一端，把你轻轻托了起来。

You feel a sense of warmth and trust and safety, and it's as though I'm pressing down on the seesaw, and it it lifts you up a little bit.

这样你就会稍微多向我展示一点真实的自己。

It lifts you up a little bit so you're able to show a little bit more of yourself to me.

对吧？

Right?

你能慢慢透露更多内心的东西，更完整的自己，甚至一些脆弱的部分。

You're able to reveal a little bit more of your inner self, a little more of your full self, maybe some vulnerabilities.

当你谈起童年，说起那段有多艰难的时候，我会认真听你说。

And then and then as you do that, as you talk about maybe your childhood and how difficult it was, I listen really well to you.

我真的在听。

I'm really listening.

我会问问题。

I'm asking questions.

这样你会觉得更安全、更信任我，也更放松，不知不觉中，你把自己更多地从水下抬了出来。

And that makes you even more, you know, feeling even more safe and trusting and even more comfortable, you know, sort of lifting more of yourself out of the water.

然后，这种相互的敞开就会发生。

And then that that then reciprocation happens.

对吧？

Right?

然后你也会反过来关心我、对我感兴趣，把我从水里拉出来。

And then you ideally then reciprocate and then show interest and curiosity in myself and lift me out of the water.

这就像一个过程：我拉你一把，你再拉我一把，彼此扶持、互相托举。

So it's kind of a a process of I lift you, and then you lift me and this lifting and being lifted.

我特别喜欢跷跷板这个比喻，因为一开始，当你真正把对方从水里拉出来的时候，其实你自己是沉得更深的。

And I love the metaphor of the seesaw because initially, when you are lifting effectively the other person out of the water, you're actually doing more to submerge yourself.

你把自己埋得更深，好让对方能浮出水面。

You're putting more of yourself under the water so that the other person can be lifted out.

但如果你想想跷跷板自然的运动方式，没错，一边升起来的时候，另一边就会往下沉，然后反过来也一样。

But of course, if you think about the natural movement of a seesaw, yes, it goes up on one side, but then it goes up on the other side.

事情就是这样发展的。

And that's what happens.

就是这么来回往复的。

It goes back and forth.

当你对别人表现出真正的关心、温暖和认真倾听时，会让他们感到放松，更愿意打开心扉。

When you show genuine interest and warmth and listening towards the other person, it helps them be comfortable and helps them open up.

这让我们更能了解彼此，然后对方也会反过来对你敞开心扉。

It helps us to know each other better, and then they reciprocate.

在你的书里，你提到一位叫马可的出色倾听者。

In your book, you describe a very talented listener named Marco.

能说说马可具体是怎么做的吗？他的方式如何体现出倾听的力量，帮助对方从深水中浮起来？

Tell me what Marco does and how it really shows the power of listening in helping the other person raise themselves out of the ocean.

马可是我这辈子见过最会听的人，我都不知道他怎么天生就这么擅长倾听，是不是基因决定的。

So Marco was the best listener I've ever met in my life, and I don't know how he became such a great listener if it's just, like, genetic.

但我相信，倾听的能力是可以通过练习提升的。

I do think we can learn to be better listeners.

他记忆力也特别好。

But he also had a great memory too.

我们大多数人听别人说话，其实都是为了怎么回应。

So most of us listen to respond.

对吧？

Right?

我们表面上在听，其实心里一直在琢磨下一句该说什么。

So we're kind of like, while we're listening ostensibly, we're really rehearsing what we're going to say next.

对吧？

Right?

对吧？

Right?

说白了，我们其实就是在等轮到自己说话的机会。

And we're kind of waiting for the mic to be given back to us when you think about it.

但这个叫马可的人，完全不是这样。

So this guy, Marco, was not doing this.

他是真的在听，为了理解对方。

Like, he was listening to learn.

明白吗？

Know?

认真听是为了学习，就像明天要考试一样。

Listening to learn is like listening like there's gonna be a quiz tomorrow.

对吧？

Right?

他啥都能记住，还会说：‘索尼亚，你还记得你跟我讲过你妈妈那次的事吗？你穿着那件红裙子，坐在那边。’

And he would remember everything, and he would say, oh, Sonja, remember that time you were telling me about your, you know, your mom and this happened, and you were wearing a red that red dress, and you were sitting over there.

这真的特别打动人心。

It's so incredibly compelling.

对吧？

Right?

因为你心里会想：天啊。

Because you feel like, wow.

他真的在乎我。

He really cares about me.

他特别用心。

Like, he's very thoughtful.

他在认真听。

He's paying attention.

对吧？

Right?

顺便说一句，我可没有这种记忆力。

And by the way, when we're I I don't have that kind of memory.

所以我们记不住那条红裙子。

So we're we're well, we can't remember the red dress.

但这并不意味着我们不是好人。

That doesn't mean that we're we're not a good person.

是的。

Yeah.

但这人真是个倾听的天才。

But this guy really was a prodigy at listening.

你知道吗？我们不记得是谁跟我们讲过这个故事了，但以前在《隐性思维》节目里听过一个关于前总统比尔·克林顿的，说他特别厉害，能让房间里每个人都觉得，自己是他唯一关注的对象。

You know, I can't remember who told us this story, but someone told us the story on Hidden Brain some time ago about former president Bill Clinton, who famously was able to make every person in in a room feel like, you know, they had his full attention.

但他们跟我们讲了个特别动人的故事，说克林顿当阿肯色州州长时，去了一所中学，跟孩子们聊天，问他们长大后想做什么。

But they told us this wonderful story about Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas visiting, I think, a middle school and talking to the various kids there and asking, what do you wanna be when you grow up?

有个调皮的小孩说，我长大后想跟你一样。

And one of the kids, you know, who was a little cheeky said, I want to be you when I grow up.

这孩子当时还是中学生呢。

This is a middle schooler.

大家听了都笑得很开心。

And so everyone has a good laugh.

后来克林顿结束了在阿肯色州的州长任期。

And then Clinton, you know, leaves the governorship of Arkansas.

当上了美国总统。

He becomes president of The United States.

有一次，他在一场自然灾害后重返南方。

And at one point, he goes back to the South during a natural disaster.

成千上万的人等着见他，他排着长队，一一握手，跟每个人打招呼。

And there are thousands of people who are waiting to see him, and he there's a rope line with, like and he's greeting thousands of people and shaking hands.

连续站了两个小时后，他走到一个十字路口，往远处看了三排人，伸手跟一个当年在中学时见过、现在已长了八到十岁的男人握手。

And after doing two hours of this, he's at an intersection, And he looks over the intersection three rows back, and he reaches out and shakes this guy's hand who's now eight years or ten years older than he was in middle school.

克林顿问他：你现在还想当我吗？

And Clinton asks him, do you still want to be me?

这故事真让人感动。

That is such a moving story.

哦。

Oh

天哪。

my god.

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love that story so much.

我也听过这个故事。

And and and I've heard that too.

对吧？

Right?

他会记得你表弟的婚礼，还问你婚礼进行得怎么样。

Like, he'll remember, like, your cousin's wedding happened and how did that go.

我们大多数人根本没有这种记忆力，所以我觉得，记不住也没必要自责。

And and, you know, we we most of us don't have that kind of memory, so we don't feel I don't think we need to feel bad if we don't.

但像比尔·克林顿这样有魅力的人，简直就是天赋异禀。

But charismatic people like Bill Clinton, he's really like a a prodigy.

和他们聊天时，你会觉得全世界就你一个人被关注着。

They make you feel like you're the only person in the room.

跟你说话的时候，他们让你感觉你是整个宇宙的中心。

Like, you're the only person in the world when you're talking to them.

有个故事，不过我可能记不太准，说不定还是道听途说的，说的是格莱斯顿和迪斯雷利竞选首相那会儿，有位女士分别在两场筹款晚宴上挨着他们坐过。

You know, there's a story And, again, I I may not even get it right, and it may be apocryphal, but it's a story about when Gladstone was running for prime minister against Disraeli, and a woman sat next to each of them in sort of consecutive fundraising nights.

她刚和格莱斯顿吃完饭，别人就问她：‘晚饭怎么样啊？’

And after she sat next to Gladstone, she was asked, oh, how was your dinner?

她说：‘那顿饭真是太美好了。'

And she said, oh, it was such a lovely dinner.

我和他在一起度过了特别愉快的时光。

Had such a lovely time I had with him.

他真是英格兰最聪明的人。

He's just the cleverest man in all of England.

第二天晚上，她又坐在了迪斯雷利旁边，同样的问题。

And then the next night, she sits next to Disarelli, and same question.

别人问她：今晚过得怎么样？

And they ask her, how was your night?

她说：和他在一起真是特别开心。

And she said, oh, that was such a wonderful time with him.

我觉得自己成了英格兰最聪明的女人。

I feel like I'm the cleverest woman in all of England.

对吧？

Right?

比尔·克林顿和那些有魅力的人，就是这么做的。

And that that's exactly what Bill Clinton and and charismatic people do.

他们不是让你觉得自己很棒，而是让你觉得自己特别棒。

They instead of making them feel good about themselves, they make you feel good about yourself.

你懂的吧。

You know?

关键是好奇和认真听，问你关于自己的问题，把你的幽默、善良、独特和智慧都引出来。

And, again, it's curiosity and listening to ask you questions about yourself, and they draw out your your wit or your your kindness or your interestingness, your intelligence.

这才是关键。

That's the key.

你还说，真正对别人敞开心扉也很重要。

You also say it's important to genuinely keep our hearts open to the other person.

也就是说，不只是外表、说话方式或倾听技巧，更重要的是内心——别人根本看不到的地方，你真的要对对方敞开心。

In other words, it's not just how we look, what we say, how we listen, but inside, where the other person can't see us at all, to actually keep our heart open to the other person.

你具体是指什么？

Describe what you mean by this,

索尼娅。

Sonja.

你知道吗，其实这在关系中是最常见的一种特质——大多数人在维持良好的关系时，不管是友情、恋爱还是同事关系，都会对对方保持一颗开放的心，也就是对对方充满温暖。

You know, and this is in some ways, this is actually the most common attribute of relationships is, you know, most of us in in relationships that are that are sort of intact, whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship or a collegial relationship, you know, we we tend to have an open heart toward the other person, which means we we have warmth towards them.

我们希望对方好。

We we we wish them well.

我们希望他们开心。

We want them to be happy.

我们会善待他们。

We're kind to them.

我们关心他们。

We care about them.

所以，保持这种开放的心态其实挺常见的，但重要的是要持续维持它，因为这种温暖感能帮助对方敞开心扉，就像我们之前说的，当你真正温和友善、眼神里带着温度时。

So, actually, it's pretty common to have that open heart, but it's it's important to sort of to maintain that that because that sense of warmth, it helps the other person, as we talked about, to open up, right, when we're really warm and kind and our eyes show.

有时候，我就有朋友。

Sometimes I mean, I have friends.

他们看着我的眼神，满是爱意，这其实就是一个很好的例子。

They look at me with loving eyes is really one way to think about it.

这真是太美好了，这种温暖让我们感到安全和信任，也让我们更愿意敞开心扉，被他人真正了解，从而感受到更多的爱。

It's so wonderful, and that warmth gives us a sense of safety and trust and helps us to open up and become more known, and so that we can become and then to feel more loved.

你知道吗，我们很多人看到那些善于沟通、善于倾听的人，都会想，嗯，明白了。

You know, I think many of us look at people who are good communicators, good listeners, and we say, okay.

我得学会做这四件事。

I need to do these four different things.

我得直视对方的眼睛。

I need to look the other person in the eye.

我得主动问他们问题。

I need to ask them questions.

我得表现出真正的兴趣。

I need to show interest.

我得接着追问下去。

I need to ask follow-up questions.

没错，这些你确实都能做到。

And yes, you can do all of those things.

但说到底，如果你根本对对方没兴趣，我们其实一眼就能看出来，那种假装是骗不了人的。

But at some level, if you're not actually interested in the other person, we are very good at picking up, you know, fakery.

特别能分辨出谁是真心的，谁是装的。

Very good at picking up people who are not sincere.

说到对一个人打开心扉，你其实想说的是，光靠外在表现是不够的。

And in some ways, when you talk about keeping an open heart to someone, what you're saying is it's not just what you're showing on the outside that matters.

你内心深处，真的得有那份感受才行。

You actually have to, at some level, feel it on the inside.

对。

Mhmm.

没错。

Exactly.

就是这样。

Exactly.

其实，心理学上说的‘高质量倾听’，说白了就是你真的在专心听。

And, actually, the the definition of what's called high quality listening is kind of the psychological term for really good listening is basically you're paying attention.

我在认真听你说的话。

I'm I'm paying attention to your words.

我理解你话里的意思。

I'm understanding your words.

而且，我也在乎你说的内容。

And, also, I care about what you're saying.

对吧？

Right?

最后这一点特别重要。

And that last part is really important.

我是真的在乎。

Like, I actually I actually care.

对吧？

Right?

所以那种温暖和善意，真的非常关键。

And so so that warmth, that kindness, yeah, it's so critical.

这其实是个信号，说明对方真的很在乎。

It's kind of a a symptom, right, that the other person really cares.

就像你说的，我们能感觉到，这事儿没法装。

And as you said, like, it's we we can tell it's you can't fake it.

我们其实很擅长分辨这些，这很好。

You know, we we are we are very it's good.

从进化角度看，我们天生就是识别虚伪的高手。

It's evolutionarily adaptive again for us to be good inauthenticity detectors.

对。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

因为那些人，可能不值得我们花太多时间。

Because those those are maybe people that we we don't wanna invest a lot of time with.

我知道你和哈里写书的时候，曾在咖啡馆里花时间讨论过‘保持内心开放’这个概念。

I understand that when you and Harry were writing your book, you spent some time in a coffee shop talking about this notion of keeping your heart open.

咖啡馆里的其他顾客听到了你们的对话，主动过来和你们分享他们的想法。

And other patrons in the coffee shop overheard your conversation and came over on their own volition to share ideas with you.

你给我讲讲当时发生了什么。

Describe for me what happened.

那真的太不可思议了。

It was actually incredible.

那是去年一月，在纽约布鲁克林。

So this was, like, in January last January in Brooklyn, New York.

那天有点阴沉，你知道的，又黑又冷。

It was sort of a dark you know, kind of dark, like, cold day.

这种情况我以前从没遇到过。我经常在咖啡馆里和人聊天，但从来没这么多人主动来搭话。

And so and this has never really happened anytime because I've I'm often in coffee shops talking to people, but I've never been sort of approached so consistently by others.

我们当时正在为书里的话题头脑风暴，至少有三个人走过来，直接跟我们聊了起来。

So we were sort of brainstorming ideas for our book, and I I I would say at least three different people just came up to us and started talking to us.

他们当中有人特别害羞，还道歉说不好意思打扰，但想跟我们说说。他们听到了我们在聊‘被爱的感觉’，于是分享了自己生活中的故事。

Like, you know, it's and and they some of them were one of them was really shy and said, I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I wanna tell you so they heard what we were talking about feeling loved, and and so they gave us different stories from their lives.

她说，不是只有一个女人，而是大概有二十八个左右，她男朋友住在墨西哥。

Instead of one woman, maybe 28 or something, her boyfriend, I think, lives in Mexico, she said.

所以他们维持这段异地关系真的很难。

And so it's really hard for them to sort of maintain that relationship as long distance.

她提到，他们有一个共同的Spotify歌单。

And so she mentioned how they have this shared Spotify list.

他们经常会往这个歌单里加一些对自己有意义的歌，这样就感觉被爱着。

And so on a regular basis, they will add songs to the shared list that are meaningful to them, and that makes them feel loved.

还有一个人说，他和伴侣有一个相框，里面放着他们俩的照片，平时会随机亮起来。

Now another person said that he and his partner have a have a picture frame that has a picture of the two of them, and it and it lights up kind of randomly throughout the day.

每次灯亮的时候，他们就会给对方发一个词。

And when it lights up, they send each other a word.

就是一个词，表达他们当下的感受。

It's just one word that sort of expresses their feelings.

可能是‘爱’这样的词。

And it could be, you know, love.

也可能是思念。

It could be yearning.

也可能是好奇。

It could be curiosity.

也可能是孤单。

It could be loneliness.

对吧？

Right?

有点儿孤单。

Sort of lonely.

这种感觉让他们觉得被爱，觉得自己真的和对方紧密相连。

And that makes them feel loved, to feel like that they're they really feel connected to the other person.

太美了。

And it was so beautiful.

太动人了，大家都忍不住想分享，这让我们意识到，这真的触动了很多人的心弦。

It was so beautiful that that people kept like, they wanted to share, which made us think that, like, wow, this is really hitting a nerve.

人们其实经常在想这个问题：被爱的感觉，不被爱的感觉，是什么让这种感觉持续，又是什么让人渐渐失去这种被爱的感觉。

People really think a lot about this, about feeling loved, not feeling loved, what maintains feeling loved, what gets people to fall out of that feeling loved.

这事儿真的经常萦绕在人们心头。

It's it's really on people's minds a lot.

我觉得在长期关系里，尤其是这样，索尼亚，我们会慢慢忘记人有多复杂，会怎么变化。

One of the things that I think happens in in long term relationships, especially, Sonja, is that we start to forget how complicated people are and how much they change.

你能说说，对一个人保持开放，意味着什么吗？就是接受他们是个复杂的人，不是一成不变的。

Can you talk a moment about how being open to another person means sort of accepting that they are complex people and that they are not fixed in stone?

一个人去参加派对，不代表他就是外向的人。

So just because someone, you know, goes out to a party doesn't mean that they're an extrovert.

他们身上可能有好多不同的面。

They could have different sides to them.

我们接纳自己和他人的复杂性，这种态度其实能让我们和别人的关系更亲密。

Talk about this idea that our embracing of complexity, both our own complexity and the complexity of other people, helps us forge closer relationships.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这一点特别重要。

I think this is so important.

我们一直在谈分享、倾听，还有相互了解、被理解的重要性。

And, you know, we've been talking about the importance of sharing and listening and getting known and being known.

有时候，我得跟你讲个故事，可能涉及一些矛盾的地方，或者一些不太正面的事，让你一时难以理解。

Well, some of that might involve me telling you a story that might involve some sort of a contradiction or something that's maybe not so positive about me or something that, like, you don't really understand.

她为什么会这么做呢？

Why did she do this?

所以我觉得，关键是我们要以接纳的态度回应，真正地接受对方——我们每个人都是由无数特质拼成的一幅挂毯。

And so I think it's important for us to respond with, I guess you would say, with acceptance, you know, that you really accept the other person, that the idea that we're all a quilt or a tapestry of many, many, many qualities.

我确实有过创伤，没错，但它并不能定义我。

And, you know, I have this trauma, yes, but it doesn't define me.

我有时候很善良，但你知道吗？

I have you know, sometimes I'm kind, but you know what?

有时候我也会自私，有时很忠诚，偶尔还带点自恋。

Sometimes I'm selfish, and sometimes I'm loyal, sometimes I'm a little narcissistic.

每个人都有这样的时候。

And we all have that.

每个人都会这样。

We all have that.

当我们听到别人的故事，觉得有点难以理解的时候，该怎么放下那种评判的心态呢？

And how do we sort of turn off that sort of judgmental tendency is when we we hear someone's story that sort of doesn't quite make sense.

那我们该怎么回应呢？

You know, how do we respond to that?

我觉得这其实是最难做到的一件事。

And I think that's actually one the most challenging things to do.

你之前跟我说过，有时候你感觉女儿并不爱你，尽管你知道她是爱你的。

You told me that there were times when you didn't feel loved by your daughter, even though you knew that she did love you.

我想知道，你的研究有没有影响你去向她寻求爱的方式？

I'm wondering whether your research has informed how you went about seeking love from her.

当我感觉女儿不爱我的时候，我就想，也许我该跟她聊聊，问问她到底是怎么回事。

You know, when I didn't feel loved by my daughter, I thought, like, maybe I should talk to her and ask her, you know, what is it?

我当时也不知道怎么想的。

And somehow I thought that that I don't know.

我觉得或许我可以改变自己，或者改变她。

Like, I could change something about myself or about her.

但这本书背后的研究让我明白，应该先对她的内心世界表现出兴趣，了解她真正在乎什么、驱动她的是什么，然后去问那些她觉得特别有意思、哪怕我一开始并不觉得有趣的事情。

But what what the research behind the book taught me is to start with showing interest in her and showing interest in her inner life and sort of what makes her tick and start to ask questions about the things that are really exciting to her, which may not be exciting to me, at least not initially.

于是我开始花更多时间陪她。

And so I I started to spend more time with her.

我问她更多问题，认真听她说，之后还会继续跟进。

I started to ask her more questions and sort of to listen more and then to follow-up too.

对吧？

Right?

比如过一周、甚至一个月后，再跟她说：嘿。

So maybe follow-up maybe a week later or a month later, say, hey.

我记得你之前说过，你对这件事特别感兴趣。

I remember when you told me that you were interested in that.

你知道吗，那边到底发生什么事了？

You know, it's what what is happening with there?

你知道，跟进一下，这样她就会觉得，我记住了对她真正重要的事，先让她感受到被爱。

You know, sort of to follow-up because then she sees that I remember the things that really matter to her and to make her feel loved first.

有效果吗？

Did that work?

她的行为有改变吗？

Did it change her behavior?

是的。

Yeah.

真的有作用。

You know, it did.

没有。

No.

并没有立刻出现什么神奇的效果，但她确实对我更敞开心扉了。

It it didn't it didn't have some kind of immediate miraculous, you know, result, but it led her to open up a little bit more to me.

她开始更多地问我自己的事，这可不怎么常见。

It led her to ask me more questions about me, which is, you know, not not as common.

孩子通常不会问父母太多问题。

You know, children often don't ask their parents a lot of questions.

这让我想到，我是不是也该给妈妈打个电话，多问问她的事。

It made me think, like, oh, I should go call my mom and ask her more questions.

你说是不是？

Right?

也许我们听完这期节目后，都该试试。

Maybe we should all do this after after this episode.

给父母打个电话，问问他们内心的想法，或者他们的童年，问问什么对他们最重要。

Call you call your parents and ask them questions about their inner lives or about their childhoods, about what really matters to them.

而且，这也让我们彼此更亲近了。

And, also, it sort of led us to be more affectionate with each other.

我特别看重身体上的接触。

I I'm a huge fan of physical touch.

你懂的。

You know?

每次抱在一起的时候，我都觉得特别被爱。

It's like I just feel so loved, you know, when we're cuddling.

你懂的。

You know?

最近我们抱得比以前多多了。

And so we we've been cuddling a lot more lately.

正如索尼娅·吕波米尔斯基因所指出的，当我们感觉不到被爱时，往往会开始自我怀疑。

As Sonja Lyubomirsky notes, when we don't feel loved, our thoughts often turn inwards.

我们会问自己：是不是我哪里不够好，别人才不喜欢我？

We ask ourselves, what is it about me that others don't like?

在学校里，如果同学不愿意和我做朋友，我就会想，是不是我不够酷。

When a classmate in school doesn't want to be our friend, we may tell ourselves we're not cool enough.

如果潜在雇主没有录用我，我就会担心，是不是我还不够聪明。

When a potential employer doesn't hire us, we fear it's because we're not smart enough.

我们该怎么防止这些思维模式变成自我实现的预言呢？

How do we prevent these sorts of thought patterns from becoming self fulfilling prophecies?

最近，心理学家格雷格·沃尔顿给我讲了个故事。

Recently, the psychologist Greg Walton told me a story.

他在斯坦福大学工作，自己也是那里毕业的。

He works at Stanford University and also went to school there.

在一次校友活动上，一位女士向他分享了一段坚持到底的经历。

At an alumni event, a woman approached him with an anecdote of perseverance.

她说，小时候她特别喜欢踢足球。

She said when she was a kid, she loved soccer.

她告诉爸爸，她打算去试训，争取加入斯坦福女子足球队，那可是支很强的队伍。

And she told her father that she was gonna try out, do walk on to the Stanford women's soccer team, which is a very good team.

想未经选拔就加入大学运动队，从来都不是件容易的事。

Walking onto a college sports team is never easy.

大多数队员都是教练直接招募的。

Most of the players are recruited by coaches.

这个过程竞争非常激烈，奖学金的诱惑也很大。

The process is highly competitive with lucrative scholarships on the line.

作为非招募球员加入球队，需要付出巨大的努力。

Joining the team as a walk on would require a ton of hard work.

这位女士的父亲根本不相信她能做到。

The woman's father didn't believe she was capable of that.

她父亲说：‘你不可能提前三周到校，每天一大早就爬起来训练。'

And her father said, you're not gonna go there three weeks early and, like, get up every morning at whatever hour.

我真的不信你能坚持。

Like, I don't believe you.

她告诉我，她真的这么做了。

And she told me that she did do that.

在遭到父亲的否定后，她本可以就此放弃。

After the woman received negative feedback from her father, she could have let it stop her.

她本可以相信自己不够优秀，或者不够努力。

She could have believed that she wasn't good enough or dedicated enough.

但她选择去回想多年前别人给过她的一句正面评价。

Instead, she chose to focus on a positive compliment she'd received years earlier.

她之所以这么做，是因为小时候她在一支青少年足球队踢球时，偶然听到另一队的家长说：嘿，

And the reason she did that was because when she was a kid playing on a youth soccer team, she overheard the parent a parent on a different team saying, hey.

那个穿23号球衣的小姑娘，真厉害。

Like, that number 23, which was her number, she's really good.

她把这句话深深记在心里，带着它来到斯坦福，作为替补队员加入斯坦福女子足球队，最终留队并把足球变成了自己的事业。

And she held that in her heart and in her mind as she as she came to Stanford, as she walked on to the Stanford's women's team, and as she made the team and made a career out of the soccer business.

当我们评估自己的能力时，该怎么防止恐惧和怀疑变成根深蒂固的信念呢？

When we consider our own abilities, how do we keep fears and doubts from turning into beliefs?

广告之后，格雷格·沃尔顿将回答听众关于自我实现预言的科学，以及如何避免负面思维恶性循环的问题。

After the break, Greg Walton answers listener questions and comments about the science of self fulfilling prophecies and how to avoid negative thought spirals.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedantam。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

当我们意识到自己失败了，就很难再想别的事。

When we realize that we failed at something, it's hard to focus on anything else.

我们的大脑一遍遍告诉我们：我们软弱、懒惰、愚蠢。

Our minds tell us over and over that we are weak, we're lazy, we're stupid.

这种消极的念头会引出令人痛苦的问题。

This negative train of thought can lead to painful questions.

我为什么就不够好？

Why am I not good enough?

别人是不是讨厌我？

Do others hate me?

一种恐惧会蔓延成另一种恐惧。

One fear bleeds into another.

很快，我们就记不清这些负面想法是从哪儿开始的了。

Soon, we don't even remember where the negativity started.

我们一步步陷进了绝望的漩涡里。

Down we descend into a vortex of doom.

我们该怎么从这种负面思维的漩涡中脱身呢？

How do we find our way out of such negative thought spirals?

斯坦福大学的心理学家格雷格·沃尔顿研究的是，我们的思维如何把自己困住，以及该如何避开这些陷阱。

At Stanford University, psychologist Greg Walton studies how our minds can entrap us and what we can do to avoid these traps.

格雷格是《平凡的奇迹》一书的作者，书中探讨了如何通过微小的行动实现巨大的改变。

Greg is the author of Ordinary Magic, the science of how we can achieve big change with small acts.

他最近做客《隐性思维》的一期节目，主题是《U 2.0 停止恶性循环》。

He joined us on a recent episode of Hidden Brain titled, U two point o stops spiraling.

今天，他再次来到节目，回应大家对那期节目的提问和反馈。

Today, he's back on the show to respond to your questions and comments about that episode.

格雷格·沃尔顿，欢迎再次回到《隐性思维》。

Greg Walton, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

格雷格，我先放一段听众的来信给你听。

Greg, I'm going to start by playing you a story of a listener who called in.

她叫谢丽，分享了自己年轻时如何深陷负面思维循环的经历。

Her name is Sherry, and she shared how she struggled with negative thought spirals as a young woman.

到了二十岁出头的时候，这种情况越来越严重，脑子里总是反复想：我怎么就没做到该有的样子，刚才那句话真蠢，为什么要做那种事，对过去充满悔恨——这些念头不停地打转，最后我甚至经常想到自杀，觉得根本找不到出路。

It really escalated quite a bit as I grew out of my teens and into my twenties that it started to become so bad, you know, all of these thoughts about how I wasn't living up to who I should be, that was stupid, you shouldn't have said that, why did you do that, regrets about the past, these kinds of terrible looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that.

格雷格，等节目快结束的时候，我再继续分享谢丽的后续故事。

I'm going to come back at the end of the show, Greg, with more of Sherry's story.

谢丽告诉我们，她是怎样从这种恶性循环中走出来的。

Sherry tells us how she got out of her doom loop.

不过现在，你能先谈谈谢丽那种不断下沉的思维状态吗？

But for now, can you start by talking about Sherry's experience of spiraling?

她经历的这些，其实并不罕见，对吧？

What she went through is hardly unique, is it?

不是。

No.

当然不是。

Of course, not at all.

所以，一个负面想法会引发下一个想法，就像这样。

So that experience of having one bad thought kind of prime the next thought.

我做了一件坏事。

So I did something bad.

我是个坏人。

I'm bad.

我又做了一件坏事。

I did something else bad.

我真是个糟糕的人。

I'm really bad.

你描述的这种恶性循环非常贴切，我觉得每个人都能感同身受。

That vortex, as you describe it, makes a lot of sense, and I think it's something that everybody can relate to.

你提到过我们为什么会陷入这种恶性循环的一些原因。

You talk about some of the reasons we might spiral.

我们收到一位叫露西娅的听众来信，她说：我们16岁的儿子因为今年日程上的一点小波折，正在往下掉。

We heard from a listener named Lucia who writes, our 16 year old son is in a downward spiral because of a hiccup on his schedule this year.

他是高中的三年级学生。

He's a junior in high school.

他已经对上学彻底放弃了。

He's given up on school.

他觉得自己的人生完蛋了。

He thinks his life is ruined.

他思维特别僵化，很难从这种状态里走出来。

He has a very fixed mindset, and it is very difficult for him to get unstuck.

我们很难帮到他，真希望能得到一些建议。

We're having a hard time supporting him through this and would love some insight.

格雷格，我们之前聊过，人们常常对生活中的挫折反应过度。

We talked, Greg, in our previous conversation about how people often overreact to setbacks in their lives.

我们总是把一点小信息放大成大事。

We blow small pieces of information out of proportion.

你之前提到过一个叫‘TIFFit’的概念。

You talked about the idea of something called a TIFFit.

能再给我们解释一下什么是TIFFit吗？

Can you remind us what a TIFFit is?

当然可以。

Sure.

没问题。

Of course.

TIFFit就是你抓住一个微不足道的小事实，却把它当成大道理，然后做出过激反应。

A TIFFit is a tiny fact that you you have a big theory about, and then you react to it in a big way.

比如老师说了句不客气的话，你就想，她觉得我笨。

So the teacher maybe says something unkind, and you think, she thinks I'm dumb.

我干脆不学了。

I'm checking out.

我不再参加这门课了。

I'm not participating in this class anymore.

这正是一个TIFFit的例子。

That would be an example of a tiff bit.

对于一个高中生来说，很难想象他们到底经历了什么样的挫折，竟然会觉得自己的一生就此毁了，毕竟只是高二而已。

So when it comes to a young person, somebody who is in high school, I mean, it's hard to imagine the kind of setback this person could have that could justify them feeling like their life is ruined when they're a junior in high school.

但这种事情肯定天天都在发生。

And yet this must happen all the time.

高中生们一定经常觉得：天啊，这周在学校发生的那点事，重要到足以决定我整个未来都没希望了。

People in high school must constantly feel, my god, whatever happened this past week in school, it's so huge that it must mean the rest of my life has no future.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这里需要想明白的是，我们讨论的是正处于从孩子向成年人过渡阶段的青少年。

Well, I think the thing to think about there is we're talking about adolescents who are in the process of developing from being children into the adults they'll be.

假设你是个十五岁的孩子，想加入校报社团，结果却被拒之门外。

So, you know, suppose you're a kid, you're 15 years old, and you wanna join maybe it's the newspaper club, and maybe you get excluded from that.

你心里可能会想，这下我当不了当初想成为的校报记者了。

You're in your mind, you might be thinking, now I can't be the newspaper journalist that I wanted to become.

你可能并没有完全意识到这个想法，但被社团拒绝的感觉，就像被未来的自己抛弃了一样。

You might not have that thought fully consciously, but the rejection from the club might feel like a rejection from the future self that you are aspiring to.

露西娅说她儿子有固定型思维。

Lucia writes that her son has a fixed mindset.

什么是固定型思维？它怎么会导致这种思维恶性循环？

What are fixed mindsets, and how do they lead to these kinds of thought spirals?

是的。

Yeah.

固定型思维就是觉得你的智商是固定的。

Fixed mindset is the idea that you have a certain amount of intelligence.

有多少就是多少。

That's what you have.

你不是聪明就是不聪明，没什么办法能改变。

And you're either smart or you're not smart, and there's not much you can do to increase that.

如果你有这种固定型思维，遇到学习情境——比如参加一场数学考试，成绩不理想时，这种思维会让你觉得：我根本不擅长这个。

And if you have that fixed mindset and you approach a learning situation, maybe you take a a math test, if you don't do very well, that fixed mindset tells you you're not good at this.

你不是学数学的料。

You're not a math person.

别白费力气了。

You shouldn't try at this.

这会让人们在面对学习挑战时变得缺乏韧性。

And it leads people to become unresilient when they're faced with learning challenges.

我做过研究，探讨学生如何避免陷入这种恶性循环，培养所谓的成长型思维。

You've done research looking at how students can avoid spirals and cultivate what's called a growth mindset.

对于露西娅这样的家长，她正面对一个觉得自己人生完蛋了的16岁儿子。

So for a parent like Lucia, who is basically dealing with the 16 year old son who feels like his life is over.

你建议她怎么用成长型思维来帮助她的儿子格雷格呢？

How would you recommend she deploy this idea of a growth mindset to help her son, Greg?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，露西娅作为父母的角色固然重要，但孩子身边还有其他人，比如老师和同伴，他们也都扮演着关键角色。

So I think one thing to say is that Lucia's role is one important role as a parent, and there's other people around that child too, including all of the educators around them who are playing important roles and all of the peers around that child as well.

在这种情况中，所有这些人都应该强调学习和成长的价值，以及学习和成长的机会。

And what all of those actors want to be able to do in that circumstance is really talk about the value of learning and growth and the opportunity for learning and growth.

当你犯错的时候，这并不意味着你笨。

So when you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb.

那只是个小小的误会。

That would be a tiff bit.

这说明你只是还没掌握而已。

It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet.

就像学走路的小孩摔倒了，他们并不是不会走路。

You know, just in the same way that a toddler who falls down as they're learning to walk, they're not a non walker.

对吧？

Right?

他们只是还没学会走路的孩子而已。

They're just a child who hasn't yet gotten the competency of walking.

所以在数学课上，如果你考试没及格，那只是说明你还没掌握这部分内容。

So in math class, if you fail a test, that means you don't understand that material yet.

家长、老师和同学的角色，都要协同起来，共同支持这个学习过程，各自做好自己的部分。

And the parents' role and the teacher's role and the peer's role is all to come together to support that learning process, to play their roles well.

对家长来说，这可能意味着多给点鼓励。

And for the parent, that might be about encouragement.

对老师来说，就是要说：我会陪着你一步步走，这段学习确实不容易，我会给你合适的材料。

For the teacher, it might be saying, I'm gonna be with you every step of the way as you work on this material, and it's hard, and I'm gonna give you the right materials.

当你提问的时候，其实是在帮老师变得更好，因为你让我更清楚你哪里还不懂，好让我用更有效的方式支持你的成长。

And when you ask a question, that's helping me become a better teacher because you're helping me understand what it is you don't know yet and how I can respond to you in ways that will support that learning growth that you're on.

我们还听到了另一位家长梅丽莎说，我发现现在的小孩，包括我自己的孩子，总把路上一点小挫折当成天大的灾难。

We heard from another parent named Melissa who writes, I've noticed that young kids these days, including my own, seem to treat every small bump in the road as a large catastrophe.

我会跟孩子沟通，鼓励他们别这么看问题。

I try to talk to my kids and encourage them not to see it like this.

正如我们之前聊到的，格雷格，青春期是我们人生中一个特别剧烈的阶段。

Now as we've discussed, Greg, adolescence is a dramatic time in our lives.

你知道青少年是不是比小孩子或者成年人更容易陷入负面情绪的循环吗？

Do you know if teenagers are more prone to negative spirals than younger kids or older adults?

我没见过直接研究过这个问题的数据。

I I I don't know of data that has asked that question directly.

但我一点也不觉得意外。

I would not be surprised, though.

去年秋天，我有机会为斯坦福的校友办了几场活动，聊了聊大家刚上大学时的经历。

You know, I had an opportunity this past fall to do a couple of different events for Stanford alum, talking about people's experiences in the transition to college.

在这些活动中，我提到，刚进大学时担心自己是否属于这里，是很常见的事，尤其是刚遇到一些小挫折，比如和室友闹矛盾的时候。

And in these events, I talked about how it's very common to worry about whether you belong when you come to college and when you have a initial difficulty, maybe a conflict of a room with a roommate.

对一个18岁的孩子来说，这种时候很容易觉得：也许像我这样的人，根本不该在这里。

That can sometimes seem if you're 18 years old, like, maybe that's a sign that people like me don't belong here.

但让我特别惊讶的是，那些现在四十岁、五十岁、六十岁甚至七十岁的校友们，回忆起那段时光时，全都点头说：确实如此。

And what was so interesting in doing these events with alum, people who are now in their forties, in their fifties, in their sixties, in their seventies, is they all recalled back to that time and said, absolutely.

对。

Yes.

我18岁的时候，觉得整个世界都系在那上面。

When I was 18, it felt like the world was riding on that.

比如，我跟室友关系好不好，老师在课堂上回答我问题时的态度，还有化学考试拿了B+还是A-，这些都好像决定着一切。

Like, the world was riding on, you know, whether I was gonna have a good relationship with my roommate, or what did my professor say to me when I asked a question in class, or did I get a, you know, a b plus or an a minus on that chemistry test.

对吧？

Right?

但从45岁的角度看，那会儿的事早就远去了。

From the perspective of a 45 year old, that's in the distant past.

对吧？

Right?

现在这些事根本无关紧要了，但他们依然能回想起当年那种感觉——当时真的觉得一切都至关重要。

And nothing is really riding on that now, but they could recall back to what that was like and how important that felt for the student at that time.

有时候

Sometimes

消极的思维漩涡，常常是由我们对别人想法的揣测引发的。

negative thought spirals can be triggered by what we think is happening in the minds of other people.