第二十五集：理想工作

如果你愿意的话，能给我们讲讲你典型的一天是怎样的吗？

If you would, would you walk us through a typical day for you?

这是隐藏的思维。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

今天，我们要讨论的是如何在工作中找到意义。

Today, we're talking about finding meaning in our work.

我通常至少迟到十五分钟。

I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late.

我从侧门进去。

I use the side door.

这样，伦伯格就看不到我了。

That way, Lumberg can't see me.

之后，我就差不多发呆一个小时。

And after that, I just sort of space out for about an hour.

发呆？

Space out?

是的。

Yeah.

我只是盯着我的办公桌，但看起来我好像在工作。

I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working.

这段来自电影《上班一条虫》的片段，描述了很多人对工作的感受——并非诗意的体验。

This clip from the movie Office Space describes what work feels like to many people, not the stuff of poetry.

但现在，想象一种感觉超越了普通工作的体验，一种像是使命的感觉。

But now imagine something that feels more than just a job, something that feels like a calling.

我们发现，那些将工作视为使命的人，对工作的满意度显著更高。

What we learned is people who see their work as a calling are significantly more satisfied with their jobs.

他们对生活的满意度也显著更高。

They're significantly more with their lives.

他们更投入于自己所做的事情，并且无论从事何种工作，往往表现得更好。

They're more engaged in what it is that they're doing and tend to be better performers regardless of what the work is.

本周《隐藏的思维》节目中，我们与耶鲁管理学院组织行为学教授艾米·里兹涅夫斯基进行对话。

This week on Hidden Brain, a conversation with Amy Rizniewski, professor of organizational behavior at the Yale School of Management.

艾米研究工作，以及她称之为‘工作重塑’的现象。

Amy studies work and something that she calls job crafting.

工作重塑能帮助你让目前的工作变得更加有意义和更令人满意。

Job crafting can help you make the job that you have right now more meaningful and more satisfying.

艾米·里兹涅夫斯基，欢迎来到《隐藏的思维》。

Amy Rizniewski, welcome to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

我最近读了你的一篇论文，被开头的一段引文深深打动。

I was reading one of your papers recently, and I was struck by an excerpt that you had at the top.

一段来自一位公司证券律师，另一段来自一位标本制作师。

One came from a corporate securities lawyer, and one came from a taxidermist.

我被他们两人所说的话深深触动了。

And I was struck by what the two of them said.

你能告诉我他们说了什么吗？

Can you tell me what they said?

当然可以。

Sure.

那位公司证券律师抱怨说，他认为自己的工作就像是与魔鬼做交易，他做这份工作并不是因为喜欢，而是因为这份工作让他能留在一个对家庭来说合适的地方。

So the corporate securities lawyer was bemoaning the fact that his, job as he saw it was I think his words were a deal with the devil, that he did the job not because he liked it, but because it allowed him to stay geographically in an area that worked for his family and so on.

相比之下，那位标本制作师谈到，他所做的工作有时会让前来取走他制作的物品的人感动落泪，对他而言，那种因工作产生深远影响而带来的满足感，是他生命中最重要的事情之一。

And in contrast, the taxidermist was talking about the way in which the kind of work he did sometimes moved people to tears when they came and picked up the pieces that he had created for them, and how for him, the feeling of satisfaction that comes from work that that has that kind of impact is one of the the biggest things in his life.

我手里正拿着这篇论文。

I have the paper in front of me.

那位标本制作师说：前几天我给一个人做了一只鸭子，当他来取的时候，几乎要哭出来了，因为那只鸭子看起来太逼真了。

The taxidermist said, I did a duck for a guy the other day, and when he came and picked it up, he almost started crying because it looked so nice.

他非常开心，这让我感到很高兴，因为他认为我做得很好。

He was just so happy, and that made me feel good that he thought I'd done a good job.

自我满足在任何工作中都非常重要。

Self satisfaction is a big deal in any job.

这在人生中也很重要。

It's a big deal in life.

我被这句话深深打动了，因为如果你只是把这两份工作并列来看，你可能会以为那位高调又光鲜的公司证券律师工作更快乐，但事实往往并非如此。

And I was so moved by that comment because, of course, if you just looked at those two jobs side by side, you might assume that the corporate securities lawyer with a high profile fancy job is the person who's actually happier at work, but that's not often the case.

事实往往并非如此。

That's not often the case.

事实上，我所做的大量研究都试图探讨人们在工作中所经历的体验，他们如何谈论工作，以及如何看待工作在他们生活中的位置——这些方面在不同人群中存在巨大差异，而这些差异往往未被研究充分认识到。

And in fact, a good amount of the research that I've done has tried to look at how the experiences that people have in their work, the ways in which they talk about it and come to think about its place in their lives, vary so much across the entire spectrum in ways that research hasn't necessarily recognized.

几年前，当你走进医院，观察那些担任清洁工作的员工时，你发现了一些非常有趣的事情。

When you went into a hospital some years ago and you looked at the people working as the cleaning staff of the hospital, you discovered something very interesting.

你发现他们对工作的看法并不相同。

You found that they did not all think of their jobs the same way.

确实如此。

That's true.

我们最初注意到这一点，并不是通过他们如何描述对工作的思考，而是通过他们如何描述自己的工作任务。

And our our first clue about this was was not necessarily in how they talked about the ways that they thought about the job, but in how it was that they described tasks of their job.

一方面，我们有一群医院清洁工将这份工作描述为技能要求不高，而另一群人则用完全不同的方式描述，认为这是一份高度专业的工作，很难让其他人接手。

So on the one hand, we have this group of hospital cleaning staff members who described the work as being not very high skill, and another group who described it in very different terms and said this was, highly skilled work where it would be very difficult to bring others in and have them take over the job.

在观察这两组清洁工之间的差异时，我们发现他们在工作班次、在组织中的工龄、所服务的科室等方面都没有区别。

And in looking to see what were the differences between these two groups of cleaners, we had no differences in the kind of shift that they worked, their tenure in the organization, the kind of units they worked on, and so on.

真正不同的是，他们对自己在日常工作中的具体职责的描述。

Instead, different was what they described as being the kinds of things that they did during the daily course of the work.

在第一组中，那些认为工作技能要求不高的清洁工，严格遵循职位描述行事。

So in the first group, the cleaners who described the work as being not particularly high skilled, they very much hewed to the job description.

而职位描述虽然详尽，但并不涉及与病人、访客、护士、医生等的任何互动。

And the job description, while extensive, doesn't involve a lot of interaction, in fact, any interaction with patients, visitors, nurses, doctors, and so on.

他们大概只是拖地、除尘、擦洗，做些清洁团队的常规工作。

Presumably, they were just swabbing floors, dusting, mopping, doing cleaning crew type stuff.

没错。

Exactly.

而在第二组中，他们虽然也提到了这些工作内容，但同时还经常谈到他们日常为护士、医生、病人及其家属所做的一些额外事情。

And in the second group, they had also talked about all of these kinds of things, but in addition, talked about the kinds of things that they did on a regular basis, for and with nurses, doctors, patients, and patients' visitors.

我们多次核实过，但这并不是他们被要求去做的事情。

And we checked this multiple times, but this was not something that they were being asked to do.

通常，这些行为超出了他们在医院中上级主管的注意范围。

Often, these kinds of things were going beyond the notice of, those who supervised them in hospital in which they worked.

但对于那些从事这些行为的清洁工，我们将其称为工作重塑。

But for the cleaners who engaged in this, we ended up calling this job crafting.

他们自行塑造了工作边界，我们认为这种方式让工作对他们而言更有意义，而且完全是他们自发进行的。

They were crafting the boundaries of their jobs in ways that we think, made the work for them more meaningful, was something that they very much undertook on their own.

如果我没记错的话，一些觉得工作特别困难的人，实际上在做一些可能违反规定的事情。

If I remember correctly, some of the people who found their work especially difficult were in fact doing work that might be argued to be against the rules.

是的。

Yes.

因此，我们样本中这部分清洁工描述的一些行为，涉及判断何时可以安全地满足病人的饮水请求，何时可以安全地协助病人移动，诸如此类，这些行为已触及患者护理的范畴，很可能让他们陷入麻烦。

So, some of the things that the cleaning staff members in this part of our sample described doing involved figuring out when would it be safe, for example, to give a patient a drink of water if they requested one, or when was it safe to help a patient to move, or things like this, which moves into the realm of patient care and could very well get them into trouble.

但我们研究的清洁工已经发展出一套系统，用来判断何时可以安全地做这些事，何时应该去做，何时必须去寻求医护人员的帮助。

But the cleaning staff members we studied had developed systems of figuring out when was it safe to do these things, when was it okay to do these things versus when would it be necessary to go and get a member of the the medical staff?

你们发现了一位女性，她在处理昏迷病人时做了一些非常有趣的事情。

You found one woman in particular who did something really interesting when it came to patients who were in a coma.

告诉我她做了什么。

Tell me what she did.

这位工作人员主要在长期康复病房工作，那里的病人处于无意识或昏迷状态，但希望最终能苏醒过来。

So this particular staff member worked in a, essentially a long term rehabilitation floor where patients were unconscious or comatose and hopefully would be emerging from those states.

她描述过其中一件事，就是取下墙上的装饰画。

One of the things that she described doing was taking down the framed art prints.

大多数病房都会挂一些画作或印刷品。

Most patient rooms have some kind of print or another.

她会定期把这些画取下来，重新排列并挂回去。

And she would take those down on a regular basis and rearrange them and rehang them.

当我们问她这是否属于她的工作职责或岗位说明中的一部分时，她回答说不是，这让我们感到非常惊讶。

And when we asked her if this was part of her job or part of the duties that she was given in her job description, she answered that it was not, which was quite striking.

我们进一步追问，为什么要做这件事？

And in asking more deeply about, well, why do this?

她谈到一种希望，即使患者不一定意识到周围的环境，但改变他们康复所处的环境，或许能激发他们内在的某种反应，加速康复进程。

Talked about the hope that even though patients were not necessarily aware of their surroundings, maybe some shift in the environment in which they were recuperating could spark something in them and speed their trajectory of healing.

某种程度上，她的行为就像我们对待家人那样。

In some ways, was behaving like we would behave toward a family member.

你试图在需求被表达之前，就预见到对方的需要。

You're trying to anticipate the needs of the person even before they're expressed.

你并不是机械地遵守规章制度。

You're not following the letter of the law.

你真正做的是尽一切可能，去确保你关心的人获得好的结果。

You're actually trying to do everything you possibly can to ensure an outcome for someone you care about.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我们的数据中也看到了大量类似的证据。

And we saw a lot of evidence of this in our data.

因此，清洁人员会谈到进入病房后，抬头看向天花板，检查是否有我们可能忽略但患者整天盯着会感到不适的东西，以便清理天花板上的污垢或其他问题。

So cleaning staff members who talked about getting in the room, sort of aiming their face sort of skyward to look at the ceilings of the hospital rooms to see if there were things that were up there that we might not notice but would bother the patients if the patients had to look at them all day long so that they could take care of any dirt or sort of issues up on the ceiling.

我们还从清洁人员那里听到了很多关于如何看待每位病人，以及在很多情况下如何看待病人家属的故事——他们会想，这可能是我的父亲、母亲、兄弟或姐妹，我会怎样照顾他们？

And we also heard a lot from the cleaning staff members about looking at each patient, and in many cases patients' families, as though, well, this could be my father or my mother or my brother or sister, and how would I care for them?

对于这些做着超出职责范围事情的人，我们可以从两个角度来理解。

So there's two ways to look at these people who are doing things that are outside of their job description.

从一个层面来说，这可以被看作是一种不服从管理。

You could call it at one level, you know, a form of insubordination.

他们根本就没有遵守规则。

They're basically not following the rules at all.

你可能会说他们是麻烦制造者，我们希望员工中这样的人越少越好。

And you could say these are troublemakers, and we wanna make sure that we have as few of them as possible on the staff.

但你也可以把他们看作是付出额外努力、真正内化了医院更大使命的人，而不仅仅是机械地完成工作描述。

But you can also see them as people who are going the extra mile and really internalizing the larger mission of the hospital and not just the descriptions of their jobs.

在拥有这两种不同类型员工的情况下，你发现了什么样的结果？

What did you find in terms of the outcomes of having workers who are the one kind or the other?

在这个特定的情境中，我们只收集了医院清洁人员自己描述他们所做事情的数据，以及这些行为与他们工作体验之间的关联。

Well, in this particular context, we were only gathering data about what it was that the hospital cleaning staff members said they were doing, and then what was that related to with respect to their experience on the job.

我们只能推测这些行为可能带来的结果，但我预计，特别是在医疗环境中，很难想象这些行为不会产生某种积极影响，因为医院清洁人员所谈论的许多事情都涉及在打扫过程中注意到谁好几轮都没人探望、谁看起来快要哭了、谁似乎特别需要倾诉，于是他们完成手头工作后，会特意回头花时间陪伴这些病人或他们的家人。

We can only speculate as to what the outcomes were likely to be, but I would expect, for example, that particularly in a medical context, that it's hard to imagine that this wouldn't have had some kind of positive effect because a lot of the things that the hospital cleaning staff members were talking about had to do with, you know, in the course of their cleaning work, noticing who hadn't had a visitor in several shifts, who looked like they might be on the verge of tears, who seemed like they really needed to talk so that they could finish with their work and double back to spend time with those patients or with those patients' family members.

很难想象在这样的环境中，这类行为不会产生积极影响。

And it's hard to imagine that that kind of work doesn't have a positive impact in a context like that.

我想谈谈这些不同类型的举措对员工意味着什么，但我想再花一秒钟，从病人的角度来看看：我认为我们每个人在某种程度上都曾身处这些病人的位置。

I want to talk about what these different kinds of initiatives mean for the workers, but I want to just spend one second again looking at from the point of view of the patient, which is that I think all of us in some ways have been in the shoes of those patients.

也许不是躺在医院昏迷的病人，但我们都有过当学生上课的经历，或者去车管局办理驾照的经历。

May not be, you know, patients in a coma at the hospital, but we've been students in a class or, you know, going to the DMV to get a driver's license.

而我们每个人都曾遇到过那些只是在履行职责的人，但他们之所以在那里，是因为他们真正从工作中找到了更深层的意义。

And all of us have routinely encountered people who are there just doing their jobs and there because they really find some deeper meaning in their jobs.

我记得我高中时的一位化学老师。

I remember a chemistry teacher that I had in high school.

我本人对化学并不特别感兴趣，但这位老师却对化学是宇宙中最酷的学科这一点充满热情，他把这份兴奋和热情传递给了我，让我明白他教我化学并不仅仅是在完成一份工作。

I wasn't particularly fond of chemistry, but the teacher was so inspired by the fact that chemistry was just the coolest subject in the universe that he communicated some of that excitement and enthusiasm to me, and I knew that he wasn't just doing a job teaching me chemistry.

这是他发自内心、深深渴望去做的事情。

This was something he desperately and deeply wanted to do.

我觉得我们都经历过这些，当我们接触到这些人时，我们会感到自己真正触及到了这个组织应有的更高使命。

And I feel like all of us have these experiences, and we when we come in contact with these people, we feel like we are now in touch with the higher purpose of what this organization is supposed to be about.

我觉得你说得非常好，非常到位，我完全同意。

I think that's very well put, very well said, and I completely agree.

事实上，我参与的这项研究最初就是从这个问题开始的。

And in fact, the line of research I was involved in that led to this study originally started with exactly this question.

在同一组织中做着完全相同工作的人，为什么会以如此截然不同的方式看待这份工作？有些人觉得这只是份工作，而另一些人则可能更倾向于将其视为一种职业？

How do people who are doing exactly the same job in the same organization come to see that work in such radically different terms where some of them see it, as you put it, as just a job versus seeing the work perhaps more as a career?

最后，还有一些人将这份工作视为一种召唤。

And then finally, people for whom that exact same work is something more akin to a calling.

这些差异一直让我着迷——它们从何而来？对从事这些工作的人以及他们所属的组织又意味着什么？

And these differences have always fascinated me, where they come from, what the implications are for the individuals who do the work and for the organizations that they're a part of.

在我与艾米对话的后半部分，我们讨论了如何让自己在工作中更有参与感。

In the second half of my conversation with Amy, we talk about what you can do to feel more engaged at work.

请继续关注。

Stay with us.

这是隐藏的思维。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

今天，我与艾米·里兹涅夫斯基讨论我们如何在工作中找到意义。

Today, I'm talking with Amy Rizniewski about how we can find meaning in work.

我问艾米，关于那些把工作视为召唤的人，她发现了什么。

I asked Amy what she'd found about people who think of their work as a calling.

我们了解到，那些将工作视为召唤的人，对工作的满意度显著更高。

What we learned is people who see their work as a calling are significantly more satisfied with their jobs.

他们对生活的满意度也显著更高。

They're significantly more satisfied with their lives.

他们工作的时间更长。

They work more hours.

他们缺勤的天数更少。

They miss fewer days of work.

他们对自己所做的事情更加投入。

They're more engaged in what it is that they're doing.

因此，当我们观察职场中这两类不同的人时，我们通常会说，这个人只是恰好找到了适合他的组织，人们找到自己的使命只是偶然和运气。

So when we look at these two different kinds of people in the workplace, and I think what we often say is this person just happened to find the organization that suits him or her, that it's just happenstance and luck that people find their calling.

我对你所做的研究感到非常有趣和引人入胜，因为你提出了一种更主动的过程，让我们更多人能够将工作视为一种使命。

What I find really interesting and intriguing about your work is that you suggest that there might actually be a more deliberate process involved so that more of us can find our work to be a calling.

你提出的这个对比非常精彩，因为我认为关于使命，确实存在两种不同的观点。

It's a wonderful contrast that you draw here, because I do think that there are two different schools of thought in in play around callings.

一种观点认为，使命是外在存在的。

And one is that it's it's out there.

你必须去找到它。

You have to find it.

这关乎进入正确的角色、合适的职位或正确的组织等等。

It's a matter of of moving into the right role or the right position in the right organization and so on.

然后，某种契机突然出现，你的工作就会变成一种内在的喜悦，这与我逐渐形成的观点截然不同——我认识到，人们确实可能偶然遇到某件事，并意识到即使中了彩票，我也会选择做它；但另一种方式是，我如何重新界定这份工作的边界，以及我如何看待它在世界中的角色，从而让自己体验到它可能具有的意义，这种意义或许正如同一种使命。

And then suddenly, this will be unlocked, and your your work will be this sort of joyful end in and of itself, which is very different from a view that I've come to, which is that can certainly happen, where people can stumble into something and realize this is what I would do even if I hit the lottery versus how is it that I can craft the boundaries of this job and the way that I think about its role sort of in the world in such a way that I can come to experience it perhaps as something that is meaningful in a way that potentially a calling could be.

最近发生的一件有趣的事情是，我们经历了一次大型强力球彩票，很多人都为此兴奋不已。

One of the interesting things that happened recently is that we had this major power ball lottery that that a lot of people got excited about.

于是，NPR的首席执行官为公司全体员工购买了彩票，我们一整天都在畅想，如果中了两亿美元会是什么样子。

And our CEO at NPR bought everyone in the company lottery tickets, and so we spent the day speculating what would be like to, you know, win $200,000,000.

但我觉得最有趣的是，我们问了几个同事：如果你中了这笔钱，会辞职吗？

But what I found most interesting was that we asked several people, would you quit your job if you won this money?

人们给出的回答让我感到非常有启发。

And I found it very revealing what people's answers were.

有些人毫不犹豫地说：当然会辞职。

So some people unhesitatingly said, of course, I'd quit my job.

如果银行里有两亿美元，我为什么还要继续工作？

Why in the world would I keep working if I had $200,000,000 in the bank?

而另一些人则完全相反，表现出彻底的困惑。

And other people had exactly the opposite response, which was sort of complete bewilderment.

我正在做自己真正热爱的事情，我为什么要辞职？

Why in the world would I quit my job when I'm doing something that I really enjoy doing?

我认为这正好印证了你刚才说的。

And I think it speaks exactly to what you're saying here.

那些工作是因为热爱本身，和那些工作只是为了谋生的人，两者之间存在差异。

The people who are working because the work is an end in itself, and the people who are working because the work is a means to an end.

我觉得，即使在同一份工作中，不同的人对工作的意义会有如此大的不同，而这些人往往受教育程度和薪资水平都差不多，这种现象让我着迷。

I think that seeing that divide and seeing that for even in the same exact job that the work can mean such different things to different people doing doing that work, often with the same level of education, same level of pay, and so on, is fascinating to me.

而且我想，随着人们成长，到了该思考自己想从事什么工作的时候，越来越多的人渴望找到一份即使中了彩票也不愿放弃的工作。

And think, you know, given the choice, I think what we're seeing now is many people as they grow up and it's time to, you know, come to think about what they wanna do, in their work, are yearning for something that will feel a bit more like a job that you wouldn't necessarily wanna quit if you hit the lottery.

但我认为，这取决于你对这些问题的看法——如果你觉得世界上存在一个神奇的独角兽，你只需要找到它，那这种想法可能会让人非常焦虑。

But I think that that's depending on your theory of of how these things work, if you think it's a magical unicorn out there that you just have to find, I think that that can be quite anxiety provoking for people.

所以，如果找到这样一份理想的工作并不是一种偶然发生的奇迹，或者即使它是一种奇迹，但也可以像你所说的那样去主动塑造，那我们应该怎么做呢？

So if finding one of these great jobs is not one of these magical things that happens, or it is a magical thing that can happen, but it's also something that can be crafted, as you suggest, what's the way to do it?

我的意思是，其中一部分在于思考：人们真正享受的是什么？他们认为世界上哪些事情是重要的？这些是不是那些对社会或他人有实际益处、必须完成的任务？然后看看你如何开始行动，让这些工作变成属于你自己的、更能带来满足感的事情。

Well, I mean, I think that part of what is involved is thinking about what kinds of things do people feel they very much enjoy and that they think are important in the world, whether those are tasks that have to get done because they help the world function in a way that is a real benefit to society or to other people, to see how and where might you start to do things to make that work your own in a way that could feel even more fulfilling.

你还研究过一些试图改变工作本身性质的努力。

You've also looked at efforts to try and change what it is the job itself is.

你被雇用去做一份工作。

So you get hired for a job.

你可能是打字员，也可能是程序员，或者是个经理，但你可以开始努力拓展这份工作描述的实际范围。

You're a maybe a a typist or maybe you're a computer programmer or you're maybe a manager, but then you can start working to expand the contours of what the job description actually is.

是的。

Yes.

我想指出的一件有趣的事情是，这不仅仅关乎扩大这些边界，承担更多任务。

One of the things that's interesting that I wanna point out is that it's not only about expanding what those boundaries are and taking on more and doing more.

工作重塑也可能涉及缩小这些边界，如果你愿意这么说的话。

Job crafting can also involve restricting that boundary, if you will.

因此，你可能会委托他人去做，甚至退后一步，放弃一些原本被定义为工作一部分的任务——随着时间推移，人们或许会意识到这些任务其实并不真正核心，也不符合组织认为他们应该负责的核心职责。

So maybe delegating or even pulling back or dropping some of the tasks that may be defined as part of the job that over time people perhaps come to realize are not actually central to, getting done or or executing on the kinds of things that the organization feels that they ought to be responsible for.

现在很多人觉得他们没有空间去做这些改变，觉得自己被困住了。

Now a lot of people feel like they don't have the latitude to make those changes, that I'm stuck.

我的上司不会允许我修改我的工作内容。

My manager won't allow me to modify what I'm doing.

我能看出自己有办法提高效率，为组织做出更多贡献，但我感到受到限制，束手束脚。

There are ways that I can see I can be more productive and more useful to the organization, but I feel constrained and hemmed in.

这些确实是实实在在的担忧。

Those are real concerns.

确实如此。

They absolutely are.

即使在那些明确禁止这种工作重塑的岗位上，人们依然会不自觉地进行这种行为。

And even in jobs where this kind of crafting is explicitly forbidden, you still see people engaging in it.

我认为这通常都是这样发生的。

And I think it usually works like this.

你意识到组织期望你完成什么任务，然后你观察自己在哪里还有一定的自由度，可以利用这些空间，以更符合流程、任务排序方式，或与谁互动来完成工作的方式，对工作进行个性化调整，让整个体验更愉快、更有意义，也让你更能感受到与同事、客户或受益者的联系。

You recognize what it is that the organization expects you to accomplish, and you see where do you have the degrees of freedom, that you might take advantage of to do that in a way that maybe from a process point of view or from a how you order the tasks point of view or who you interact with to get that work done point of view, how you can essentially customize that in a way that makes the experience more enjoyable, more meaningful, and something that perhaps makes you feel more connected to those who you're either working with or who are the recipients or beneficiaries of your work.

我也对你的观点非常着迷——你指出，不仅通过重塑工作职责能让你找到一份使命感，重新调整你与职场中其他人的关系也同样重要。

I'm also fascinated by the fact that you point out that it's not just crafting your job description that can allow you to find work that's a calling, but it's also recrafting or redefining the relationships you have with other people in the workplace.

你能就此谈谈吗？

Can you talk about that for a moment?

大多数工作都涉及一定程度的与他人接触或相互依赖，无论是同事、客户还是顾客。

Most jobs involve some level of contact with or interdependence with other people, whether those are coworkers, whether those are clients or customers.

通常，正是这些工作中的关系和相互依赖，带来了最大的喜悦和最大的挫败感。

It's often these relationships and these interdependencies with other people on the job that are the sources of the greatest joys and the greatest frustrations.

因此，在某种意义上，人们所塑造的正是这一要素，并不让我感到意外。

And so it, in some sense, doesn't surprise me that part of what it is that people are crafting are exactly that element.

也就是说，那些执行工作所必需的，或与工作本身密不可分的关系和互动。

So the, the relationships and the interactions that, are either necessary to executing the work or just come part and parcel with the doing of the job.

你在研究中还提到认知重塑的概念，也就是说，除了改变工作描述和工作周边的关系之外，还有你对工作的思考方式，而这在很大程度上可能是你掌控力最强的部分。

You you also talk in your research about the idea of cognitive crafting, that that besides, you know, changing the description of the job and the nature of the relationships around the job, there's also the way you think about the job, which in many ways is perhaps the thing you have the greatest control over.

你是否能够改变自己正在做的事情，以及你如何看待自己所做的事情？

Do you have some ability to change what it is you're doing in how you come to think about what you're doing?

是的。

Yes.

因此，重塑的第三种形式是：你可以重塑构成工作的任务，重塑工作中的关系和互动，但你所提到的第三类——认知重塑，指的是人们如何看待工作的本质。

So the third form of of crafting, so you can craft the tasks that comprise the job, the relationships and interactions that are part of the job, but this third category that you name, cognitive crafting, consists of how it is that people think about what the work even is.

结果发现，这一点上其实有很大的自由度，如果回到医院清洁工的研究来看的话。

And it turns out that there's a lot of freedom in this, if you will, to go back to the hospital cleaning staff study.

我们问过受访的医院清洁工一个问题：请告诉我你的职位名称。

One of the questions that we asked the hospital cleaning staff members we interviewed was to give us your job title here.

有些受访者给出了他们官方的技术职称。

And some of the people in that study gave us their official technical title.

其他人则会说，我是大使。

Other people would say things like, I'm an ambassador.

甚至在最极端的情况下，有人完全偏离了组织对工作的描述，说：我是治疗者。

Or in the the most extreme case of of someone sort of deviating, if you will, from describing the work the way that the organization would, said, I'm a healer.

关于工作重塑研究，让我们感到兴奋的一点是，这些不同的认知重塑方式似乎与人们实际执行工作的方式密切相关。

One of the things that excites us about the job crafting work is that these different ways of engaging in cognitive crafting seem to be related to how it is that people actually then go about executing the job.

对吧？

Right?

如果你穿着制服、正在值勤，并且认为自己是一个治疗者，这是你的责任和角色，这与仅仅把工作看作是完成一天中一系列特定任务截然不同。

If you have that uniform on and you're on your shift and you are thinking of yourself as a healer, that that is your responsibility and your role there, it's very different from thinking about it in terms of working through a particular task set in a day.

而且同样地，这些差异的来源——为什么有些人这么做，而其他人却不这么做，以及这给他们带来的不同——一直让我们感到无比着迷。

And and again, sort of where those differences come from, why some people do this, why others don't, and the difference that it makes for them is something that's been endlessly fascinating for us.

艾米·雷兹尼耶夫斯基，感谢你今天做客《隐藏的思维》。

Amy Rezniewski, thank you for joining me on Hidden Brain today.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

能参加这次对话我很开心。

It's been a pleasure.

这是耶鲁大学管理学院组织行为学教授艾米·雷斯尼耶夫斯基。

That's Amy Resniewski, professor of organizational behavior at the Yale School of Management.

《隐藏的思维》播客由卡拉·麦吉尔克、艾莉森·麦肯曼和马克斯·内斯拉克制作，他们都深爱自己的工作。

The Hidden Brain podcast is produced by Kara McGurk Allison, Mackie Penman, and Max Nesrack, all of whom love their jobs.

你可以在Facebook和Twitter上关注我们，也可以在当地的公共广播电台收听我的节目。

You can find us on Facebook and Twitter, and listen to my stories on your local public radio station.

如果你喜欢这期节目，不妨在iTunes上给我们一个评价。

If you liked this episode, consider giving us a review on iTunes.

这将帮助其他人找到这个播客。

It will help other people find the podcast.

我是尚卡尔·韦达南。

I'm Shankar Vedantan.

我也热爱我的工作，这里是NPR。

I also love my work, and this is NPR.