爱2.0：如何修复你的婚姻，第1部分

《隐藏的大脑》今年迎来十周年庆典，为此我们将在美国和加拿大多个城市举办现场演出。接下来的站点是10月11日的巴尔的摩、10月12日的华盛顿特区以及11月22日的洛杉矶。届时我将分享节目开播十年来的七个关键心理学洞见。了解更多信息及购票请访问hiddenbrain.org/tour。重复一遍：hiddenbrain.org/tour。

Hidden Brain turns 10 this year, and to celebrate, we are bringing the show to cities across The United States and Canada in a live performance. Our next stops are in Baltimore on October 11, Washington DC on October 12, and Los Angeles on November 22. Join me as I share seven key psychological insights from the show's first decade. For more information and tickets, go to hiddenbrain.org/tour. That's hiddenbrain.org/tour.

期待与您相见。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。大多数关系中都难免会有这样的时刻——人们望着餐桌对面的伴侣暗自思忖：这人是谁？或许你讨厌伴侣吃饭时张嘴咀嚼的样子。

I hope to see you there. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. There comes a time in most relationships when people look at the partner sitting across the table from them and think, who is this person? Maybe you don't like the way your partner eats with his mouth open.

或许你反感她总在忙工作。或许你不喜欢的...好吧，实在太多了。这种时刻，我们脑海中会闪过一个念头：也许我们能教会伴侣闭着嘴吃饭，也许能帮他们实现工作与生活的平衡。

Maybe you don't like the way she's always working. Maybe you don't like, well, lots of things. At moments like this, a thought crosses our minds. Perhaps we can get our partners to close their mouths while they eat. Perhaps we can get them to have more work life balance.

或许我们能将他们改造成更好的版本。我们清楚知道该做什么，也确切明白该怎么做。首先我们会彬彬有礼地指出伴侣的错处，然后示范如何改进。若对方充耳不闻，我们便不厌其烦地反复尝试。

Perhaps we can change them into a better version of themselves. We know exactly what needs to be done and we know exactly how to do it. We'll first explain, very politely of course, how our partners are doing things wrong. We'll show them how they can be better. If they fail to listen, we'll go back and try again.

或许还会加上指指点点和稍稍提高的嗓门。凭借耐心、坚持和些许惩戒，我们定能让伴侣改掉陋习。所有烦恼都将烟消云散，天堂的笛声将奏响甜蜜乐章，我们终会住进应得的浪漫乐园——当然，也可能适得其反。

Maybe add a wagging finger, a slightly raised voice. With patience, persistence, and a little punishment, we can get our partners to change their ways. All our troubles will disappear. The flutes of heaven will play sweet music, and we will get to live in the romantic paradise we deserve. Or not.

或许改造伴侣的企图只会引发相互指责。没有天堂的笛声，只有无休止的争吵；没有改变，只有固执对抗。本周《隐藏的大脑》及配套节目《隐藏大脑Plus》将推出为期一个月的爱情系列首期，探讨我们对亲密关系的期待，以及社会婚恋观的时代变迁。

Maybe instead of changing your partner, you end up in mutual recrimination. Instead of the flutes of heaven, you get fights. Instead of change, you get obstinacy. This week on Hidden Brain and in a companion story on Hidden Brain Plus, we are going to bring you the first episode in a month long series all about love. We'll explore the expectations we put on our relationships and how our society's views on romance and marriage have changed over time.

我们还将剖析分手背后的心理机制，探索如何减轻恋情终结的伤痛。这些内容都将在未来几周的《爱情2.0》系列中呈现。今天我们先从修复破裂关系的艺术与科学入手，探索一条与传统做法截然不同、但被科学研究证实可能有效的路径。情歌与浪漫诗篇总喜欢描绘恋爱中两人合而为一的景象。

We'll also look at the anatomy of a breakup and ways to soften the blow when love comes to an end. That's all to come over the next few weeks as part of our Love two point zero series. Today, we kick things off with a deep dive into the art and science of mending troubled relationships. We'll explore a radically different path from the one we usually choose, a path that scientific research shows might actually work. Love songs and romantic poetry are full of images of two people becoming one in a relationship.

但让关系变得困难的是，我们在某种程度上依然固执地保持自我。不是浑然一体的存在，而是两个独特有时甚至带刺的个体。其实我们都本能地知道如何解决这个问题。1996年首演的一部长期上演的音乐剧标题道出了许多伴侣的心声，剧名叫做《我爱你，你很完美，现在改变吧》。

But something that makes relationships difficult is that we remain, to some extent, stubbornly ourselves. Not one seamless entity, but two distinctive and sometimes prickly individuals. All of us intuitively know how to fix this problem. The title of a long running musical that premiered in 1996 captures the experience of many couples. It was titled, I love you, you're perfect, now change.

在克拉克大学，心理学家詹姆斯·科尔多瓦研究着关系动态。多年来，他一直研究与我们惯常方式不同的相处之道。詹姆斯·科尔多瓦，欢迎来到《隐藏的大脑》。

At Clark University, psychologist James Cordova studies the dynamics of relationships. For many years, he has studied a different approach to the one we usually use. James Cordova, welcome to Hidden Brain.

谢谢尚卡尔，非常高兴来到这里。

Thank you, Shankar. It's so great to be here.

詹姆斯，我了解到你是个喜欢开玩笑、用幽默方式调侃别人的人。当你对妻子展现这一面时会发生什么？

James, I understand that you're a person who loves to josh around and tease people in a humorous way. What happens when you engage this side of your personality with your wife?

这是个很好的问题。确实，我在一个以互相调侃打趣作为表达爱意方式的社区长大，这已成为我关系中不可分割的部分。但事实证明，我妻子对这种持续玩笑太过敏感。

It's it's a great question. So so, yeah, I was raised in a in a community where one of the ways that we show, like, love and affection for each other is just ongoing joshing and teasing of each other. So so this is just part of who I am in relationship. And as it turns out, my wife is much too tenderhearted for that kind of ongoing teasing.

我听说你有时开的玩笑会无意中伤害到她的感情？

I understand that you've sometimes made jokes, and you have inadvertently hurt her feelings?

噢，经常。经常这样。是的。因为这种表达对我太自然了，我花了多年才真正培养出这方面的敏感性。

Oh oh, often. Often. Yeah. No. This this was something that that because it's so comes so naturally to me, it took years for me to to, like, really develop a sensitivity in that spot.

我理解这种互动在你们俩之间发生过一次，当时你们一起在新墨西哥州的圣达菲购物。詹姆斯，请给我讲讲当时的情况背景以及发生了什么。

I understand this dynamic played out between the two of you once when you went shopping together in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Give me both the context for what happened and what happened, James.

哦，当然。当时我们正在为她选购一双新靴子。我们之间有个内部笑话，就是她品味极其高雅。所以大多数时候我们一起购物时，她都会直奔最贵的那款商品。这成了我们之间一个持续不断的玩笑。

Oh, absolutely. So we were in the process of shopping for a new pair of boots for her. And one of the things that we have is sort of like an inside joke between the two of us is that she has exquisite taste. So way more often than not when we're shopping for something, she makes a beeline for the most expensive version of whatever it is that we're that we're shopping for. And and it's an ongoing sort of running joke between the two of us.

我们当时在圣达菲一家小型精品靴店购物很开心。进门时我朝店主喊道：'能不能直接给我们看看店里最贵的靴子，省点时间？'我以为我妻子会觉得很好笑，但显然当时她并不这么认为。

So we were having a good time shopping for boots, and we're heading into this, like, small kind of boutique boot store in Santa Fe. And so as we're walking in, I call out to the proprietor, and I say, can you just go ahead and show us the most expensive pair of boots in the store and save us some time? Which I thought my wife would find hilarious, but clearly, in the moment, did not.

她当时什么反应，詹姆斯？

What was her reaction, James?

你知道，当我妻子受伤时，她会变得沉默。从我们进门时的轻松愉快氛围，你能明显感觉到她情绪突然抽离的那种转变。

So, you know, when my wife is hurt, she gets quiet. Right? So there's the there's a very distinct shift in tone from the sort of playfulness and lightheartedness that we were experiencing as we were walking in the door to you can just sort of feel her pull away.

我猜那时候你意识到自己说错话了。

I'm assuming at that point, you realized that you had put your foot in your mouth.

哦，当然。我又不傻。能感觉到出问题了。有趣的是，我的第一反应还是试图保持之前的玩笑氛围。

Oh, yeah. I'm not an idiot. Can tell. Like, something happened. And and and it's interesting because, like, my instinct is still to see if I can maintain the momentum.

对吧？所以，哦，我们玩得很开心。我们互相开玩笑，然后发生了一些事。但也许我可以继续保持这种玩笑的态度，问题就会自然消散。但事实证明，这通常行不通。

Right? So, oh, we're having a good time. We're feeling jokey with each other, and something happened. But maybe I can just, like, keep going with the playfulness, and and it'll just wash away. And, you know, that just, as it turns out, doesn't usually work.

这么多年来，你其实一直在温和地推动妻子对你玩笑话的态度放松些。你对她说过什么？她又是如何回应的？

So over the years, you have actually nudged your wife to lighten up when it comes to your teasing. What have you said to her, and how has she reacted?

比如，我试图解释我的出发点。这只是表达亲昵的一种方式，是 playful 的。她显然认识我的朋友和家人，也见过我和其他人这样互动。她理解这一点，但这对她就是不适用。对吧？

So, like, I've tried to, like, explain where I'm coming from. Like, this is just by way of being affectionate, and it's playful. And, like, you know, she's obviously knows my friends and and my family and and has seen that play out between between other folks. And and, I mean, she gets it, but it just doesn't work for her. Right?

所以我试着帮她从我的角度理解，结果就像铅球落地一样毫无效果。

So I've tried to, like, help her understand it from my perspective, which has just gone over like a lead balloon.

詹姆斯，除了研究者身份外，你还是为伴侣提供心理治疗的临床医师。有一对夫妻中，妻子非常希望丈夫敞开心扉谈论感受，而丈夫却很抗拒。这个矛盾在他们之间是如何表现的？

So in addition to being a researcher, James, you're also a clinician who works with couples in psychotherapy. One couple featured a woman who really wanted her husband to open up and talk about his feelings, something that he resisted. How did this conflict play out between them?

在这对夫妻中，妻子强烈感觉到丈夫在情感上对她有所保留。她渴望了解他的感受，希望他能倾诉自己的需求、愿望以及情绪起伏。而丈夫却是个极度隐忍的人，明白吗？

So, you know, in this particular couple, the the the wife felt, like, quite deeply that her husband was withholding from her. Right? That she wanted to be able to know what he was feeling, have him talk to her about his wants and needs and his ups and downs. And and he was just very much a a stoic. You know?

几乎到了惜字如金的地步。显然深爱妻子，但他的爱的语言是服务行为而非情感表达。妻子每次尝试沟通，他都感到被评判，最终导致双方渐行渐远。

Very you know, almost almost monosyllabic. Right? Yeah. You know, clearly loved her, but his love language was acts of service, not necessarily talking about his feelings. And, you know, she would try, and he would feel judged, and then they would, you know, sort of turn away from each other.

你知道，她会尝试几次，然后沮丧地放弃，而他则会感到被评判，于是便默默走开。

She you know, she'd try a few times and then and then give up in frustration, and he would feel judged and and just sort of wander off.

你把这称为豪猪乌龟困境。这个短语是什么意思？

You call this a porcupine turtle conundrum. What do you mean by that phrase?

我们经常在伴侣间看到的一种模式是，当两人之间出现冲突时他们的反应方式。当某些事情引发紧张、伤害或痛苦时，我们人类的本能反应通常是某种形式的战斗或逃跑。有些人更倾向于战斗，就像豪猪一样。

So one of the one of the patterns that we often see in couples is how they respond when there is conflict between the two of them. So something comes up that feels tense or or or hurtful or painful in some way. And and our natural human reaction when something is painful, most often is some version of either fight or flight. And so some of us lean a little bit more in the direction of fight. We're sort of like porcupines.

当我们陷入冲突时，我们会竖起尖刺，朝伴侣逼近。内心的想法是：我要通过主动出击来解决这个问题。而另一些人则更像乌龟，我们对痛苦的反应更倾向于逃避。

When when we're having conflict, we pull our quills out. We push our quills out, and we go toward our partner. The the the sense inside of that is I'm gonna resolve this problem by moving towards it and fighting it. And for others of us, we're more like turtles. We've learned something more of a flight response to feeling pain.

所以当我们感受到冲突或评判的压力时，我们会变得沉默，缩回壳里。有时只是沉默不语，有时甚至会直接离开房间。这种模式可能以任何一方为主导形成。

So when we're feeling that stress of conflict or judgment, we get quiet. We pull inside. Sometimes it's just getting quiet. Sometimes it's actually literally leaving the room. And the pattern emerges such that it can it can happen in either direction.

当乌龟感受到豪猪的尖刺时，他们开始退缩。这种退缩对豪猪来说是一种威胁，于是那个人会以更激进的姿态追击，这又使得另一方更深地缩回壳中。这对双方来说都很沮丧，对吧？

If the turtle, you know, feels the porcupine's quills coming out, they start to withdraw. That withdrawal feels threatening to the porcupine. So that person, like, pursues even harder with their quills out even more aggressively, which makes the other person pull into their shell even more deeply. And and it's frustrating for both of them. Right?

缩在壳里的人等着豪猪停止刺戳，而扮演豪猪角色的人则拼命想让对方从壳里出来。我们会陷入这种豪龟模式直到精疲力竭。对大多数伴侣而言，这个模式最终就是这样解决的——做到累得做不动为止。

The person in the shell is waiting for the porcupine to stop poking me, and the person who's in the porcupine role is just desperate for the other person to come back out of their shell. And we can engage that kind of porcupine turtle pattern until we're exhausted. And that's for most couples how the pattern resolves. We just do it till we're too tired to do it anymore.

詹姆斯，你还接触过另一对夫妇，他们面临着不同的问题。在这段关系中，丈夫过分关注妻子保持身材和体型。这种互动模式是如何发展的？

There was another couple you worked with who struggled with a different problem, James. Here, the husband was preoccupied with his wife being fit and in shape. How did that dynamic play out?

这对夫妇我定期会见到他们，大概每年一次左右。通常都是她主动提出来做心理咨询，因为她深受丈夫那些——你知道的——他提出的要求、不依不饶的敦促所伤害，他总是用不太高明的方式鼓励她多锻炼、变得更健美、注意饮食。而丈夫心里有个理想体型的标准，他说自己实在控制不了这种偏好。

This is a couple that I've seen somewhat regularly. They come in, I would say, once a year or so. And almost always initiated you know, coming into therapy will be initiated by her because she is feeling so hurt by his, you know, his requests for his demands, for his his not particularly skillful encouragement for her to exercise more, become more fit, watch what she eats. Right? And and he has this image in mind of a particular kind of physique that he says, I mean, I can't help it.

这就是我本能会被吸引的类型。实际上他妻子身材已经很匀称了，属于普通健康女性的体型，并非超模那种。但两人总会陷入这种僵局：妻子试图妥协顺从，

This is just what I'm attracted to. And and his wife is actually quite fit. She's just normal woman fit, not, like, supermodel fit. And and and they will get stuck in this place where, you know, she tries to appease. She tries to go along.

有时又尝试反抗，而丈夫则不断投射出挫败感和失望情绪，说实话还夹杂着些许羞耻。每当矛盾激化时，他们总是无法自行打破这种恶性循环。

She tries to resist, and he just is projecting this experience of frustration and disappointment, honestly, tinged with a little bit of shame. And and they can't get themselves out of this pattern when it when it gets sticky for them.

我猜想双方都曾试图改变对方行为。你清楚描述了丈夫如何试图改变妻子，但反过来是否也有类似情况？

I'm imagining that each person has tried to change the behavior of the other. You clearly indicated how the husband is trying to change the behavior of the wife. But has the reverse happened as well?

当然有。她极力想让丈夫明白这才是普通人健康身材的样子，希望他能放下那种执念，或者至少——如果实在放不下——就把它埋在心里。

Oh, absolutely. So her, you know, her strong attempts are to to to help him see that that this is what a a normal person's fit body looks like to get him to, let go of that desire or at least to, I suppose, if he can't let go of it, to keep it to himself.

当我们在感情中遇到问题时，解决方法看似简单——显然伴侣需要改变。稍后我们将探讨：何时改变他人的努力会奏效，何时会失败，以及我们该如何应对。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。

When we face a problem in our relationships, the solution often seems simple. Obviously, our partners need to change. When we come back, when our efforts to change another person work, and when they don't, and what we can do about it. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。大多数长期关系最终都会暴露出尖锐的棱角和粗糙的边缘。一个人的所作所为或不作为会让另一个人抓狂。在克拉克大学，心理学家詹姆斯·科尔多瓦研究了行为改变的科学——它何时有效、何时无效，以及我们能做些什么。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Most long term relationships eventually uncover sharp angles and jagged edges. Things that one person does or doesn't do drive the other person bonkers. At Clark University, psychologist James Cordova has studied the science of behavior change when it works, when it doesn't, and what we can do about it.

詹姆斯，你说长期以来，夫妻治疗领域的重点一直是帮助夫妻改变他们的行为。这一定符合大多数夫妻自身的假设，即如果他们伴侣能改变，他们关系中的问题就会消失？

James, you say that for a long time, the emphasis within the field of couples therapy was on helping couples change their behavior. Now this must have fit with the assumption that most couples themselves have, which is that the problems in their relationships would disappear if only the other person would change?

这是我们的本能反应。对吧？比如，我感到不舒服，我感到痛苦，而问题出在你身上。如果你能改变，我会感觉好一些。

That is our natural instinct. Right? Like, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I'm feeling some distress, and you're the problem. And if you would change, I would feel better.

所以，是的，当然，这就是夫妻们来咨询时的状态。这就是他们所要求的。而热心肠、仁慈的治疗师们试图在他们所要求的事情上满足他们。

And and and so, yeah, of course, that is the that's the way couples come in. That's what they're asking for. And and, you know, warm hearted, beneficent therapists tried to meet them right there in the thing that they were asking for.

我在想，肯定有些时候这种方法确实有效。当然，夫妻们来咨询时，大概都想争取治疗师站在自己这边，告诉对方他们做错了什么。但肯定有些时候，治疗师确实成功地让夫妻改变了他们的行为。

And I'm wondering, there must be times when, in fact, this approach does work. Of course, the, you know, couples are coming in, presumably, they're trying to recruit. Each of them is trying to recruit the therapist onto their side to tell the other person what they're doing wrong. But there must be times where therapists, in fact, are successful at getting couples to change their behavior.

确实如此。我最初接受的是所谓的行为婚姻疗法培训，这是一种非常注重改变的夫妻治疗方法。我们会与夫妻一起努力增加他们为对方做好事的频率，我们称之为行为交换。教他们如何更有效地沟通，如何更有效地解决问题。

It it's true. I was originally trained in what was called behavioral marital therapy, which was very much a change oriented approach to doing couple therapy. And the the changes that we would work on with couples is increasing the frequency with which they were doing nice things for each other. We called that behavior exchange. Teaching them how to communicate more effectively, teaching them how to problem solve more effectively.

但事实证明，尽管这种疗法具有可证明的疗效，但这些技能没有一项能跟随夫妻回家。所以，虽然发生了一些改变，但夫妻们很难持续下去。

But as it turned out, even though it is a therapy that has demonstrable effectiveness, None of those skills would follow couples home. So so there is some change happening, but it's difficult for couples to sustain it.

当然，夫妻之间确实经常解决问题。这是因为许多问题都有简单的解决方案。

Couples, of course, do solve problems all the time. That's because many problems have an easy solution.

当我们刚开始在一起时，我们正在互相适应，那些容易适应的事情，我们适应得如此之快，以至于几乎没注意到我们已经做到了。比如，你要睡在床的哪一边？我要睡在床的哪一边？通常这不是问题。然后比这稍微复杂一点的，我认为是中等级别的问题，我们可能需要稍微挣扎一下。

When we first get together, we're adjusting to each other, and the things that are easy to adjust to, we adjust to so quickly that we almost don't even notice that we've done it. Like, which side of the bed are you gonna sleep on? Which side of the bed am I gonna sleep on? Not not usually an issue. And then just above that are what I think of as, like, mezzanine level problems that we might have to struggle with a little bit.

有时这些问题需要几周、几个月甚至几年才能解决，但我们最终都会解决它们，然后我们就没事了。

Sometimes they take weeks, months, or years, but we do eventually solve them, and then we're good.

在这之后还有另一类问题，它们更加棘手。我们今天大部分时间将讨论这些非常困难的问题。但我请詹姆斯给我举一个他所说的中等级别问题的例子，那些既不容易解决又不至于无解的问题。他告诉我他和妻子曾因他对骑行的热爱发生过争执。

There is another group of problems that comes after this, and they are more intractable. We're going to spend most of our time today talking about those very hard problems. But I asked James to give me an example of what he calls a mezzanine level problem, the ones that are not simple to solve but also are not intractable. He told me of a time he and his wife had a dispute over his love for cycling.

我长期热爱骑行，我想这有两个重要的方面。一是我已经有点像是内啡肽上瘾了。所以这就像是我身份中不可或缺的一部分。二是骑自行车，尤其是公路骑行，是危险的。我已经被车撞过三次了。

I've been a long term cyclist, and I guess there's two aspects to that that are important. One is I've become something of an endorphin addict. So it's just like it's a necessary part of who I am. And two, bike riding, like road cycling, is dangerous. I've been hit by cars, like, three times.

所以上次我被车撞后，我妻子充满爱意地回应说，请你再也不要骑自行车了。我试图限制骑行，但如果连续太多天没有好好骑一次车，我就会变得非常烦躁。

So the last time I was hit by a car, my wife responded to that lovingly as please don't ever ride your bike again, which I tried to limit, but I get, like, very fussy when it's been too many days between the last, like, good bicycle ride.

我理解你和妻子最终至少为这个持续存在的问题拼凑出了一个部分解决方案。你们达成了什么妥协？

I understand that you and your wife eventually cobbled together at least a partial solution to this persistent problem. What was the compromise you worked out?

所以这个骑行问题很好地诠释了我所说的‘中层问题’，因为解决方案并非一蹴而就。实际上双方曾多次拉锯对抗。你知道吗？我试图让她更接纳我的骑行爱好，而她则希望我换成更安全的运动方式。最终我们愿意协作妥协的意愿，源于真正共情理解了对方的立场。

So this cycling problem is a really good example of what I mean by a mezzanine level problem because it the solution didn't come quickly or easily. There actually was a lot of push and push back. You know? I was trying to get her to change to just be much more accepting of my cycling, and she was trying to get me to change to, like, do something less dangerous for your exercise, please. And I the the the willingness to collaborate, the willingness to compromise for us came out of really compassionately understanding where the other person was coming from.

当我真正深切地共情体会到她在家担惊受怕的心情——我在公路上畅快骑行时，她在家恐惧我会遭遇车祸、受伤甚至丧命。同时她也共情理解了骑行对我的重要性，不仅是身体健康，更是心理情绪的重要支柱。基于这种相互理解，我们才更有可能思考：怎样的折中方案可行？最终我们达成的完美妥协方案是：她购置了一辆电动自行车。

For me to really to really deeply compassionately understand how scary it was for her when I was out on the road. So I'm out on the road having a great time cycling, and she's at home terrified that I'm gonna get hit by another car, that I'm gonna get hurt, or that I'm gonna get killed. And and for her to compassionately understand how important it cycling is for me both for my physical health, but mostly for my mental and emotional well-being. And and from that place, we were better able to think, well, what might a compromise be? And the compromise that we actually worked out, which I find so beautiful, is that she bought an ebike.

我们都对她买的电动自行车非常满意。现在她陪我一起骑行，这实现了双赢：她能在现场对路况有所掌控，而我可以随心所欲地骑行——因为她能轻松跟上速度。这反而成了我们之间美好的情感纽带。

We're both quite delighted with the ebike that she bought. And so she goes cycling with me, and and that helps both of us. She's with me, and she's able to feel like she's got some some influence, some some control over what's going on on the road. And I get to go out and go as as fast or as long as I want because it's easier for her to keep up. So it's actually become a really sweet source of connection between the two of us.

不过要知道，我们花了些时间才找到这个解决方案。

But, you know, it took us a while to find our way to that.

这也是技术解决问题的典型案例。某种程度上你骑行速度更快，而她较慢，原本你们很难共同骑行——对她太吃力，对你又无趣。但电动自行车的发明从技术层面解决了这个问题，使她能够跟上你的节奏。

You know, it's also an example of a technical solution to the problem because in some ways, you're a faster biker than she is. She's a slower biker than you are. So you couldn't actually have gone biking together. It would have been difficult for her and boring for you. But the invention of e bikes has now come up in some ways with technical solution to the problem that she can now keep up with you.

现在你们可以一起骑行了。但并非所有问题都能找到技术解决方案，对吧？

You can go biking together. But not all problems lend themselves to technical solutions, do they?

确实如此。每个人在每段关系中，都会遇到些顽固无解的问题。

No. They definitely don't. There are definitely problems that for all of us in all of our relationships, there are problems that will will stubbornly refuse to be solved.

詹姆斯，你说在每段关系中，都存在你所谓的永恒问题，那些根本无法改变的问题。这些永恒问题具体指什么？

So you say, James, that in every relationship, there are what you call perpetual issues, problems that are simply not amenable to change. What are these perpetual issues?

这些是我们关系中因天生差异产生的摩擦点，永远无法消除。它们会成为冲突的根源。我们视其为关系本质中天然存在的瑕疵。比如，最根本的性格特质差异之一就是内向者与外向者的区别。而不知为何——或许因为造物主有幽默感——内向者和外向者总是相互吸引，最终结成伴侣。

They are areas of friction in our relationship that arise out of naturally occurring differences between us that aren't ever gonna go away. Those are gonna be sources of conflict. We we think of them as naturally occurring flaws in the fabric of our relationship. So for example, one of the most fundamental personality traits is the difference between introverts and extroverts. And for whatever reason, because the creator of the universe has a sense of humor, introverts and extroverts find each other very attractive and often end up in relationships together.

内向者可能被外向者吸引，因为后者能带他们外出冒险；外向者则可能因前者那种稳定特质而倾心，那种平和带来的独特联结感。但每周五晚上的安排总会成为矛盾，因为这源于双方的根本差异。作为外向者，劳累一周后我想出门找乐子；

And introverts can be attracted to extroverts because, you know, they they pull them out and have, you know, great adventures with them, and extroverts can be attracted to introverts because of that sort of steadiness. And there's a kind of there's a kind of connection that comes with that sense of of steady calm. And what we're gonna do on a Friday night is always gonna be an issue because it's arising out of a fundamental difference between the two of us. If I'm an extrovert, I've had an exhausting week. I wanna go out and do something fun.

若我是内向者，经历疲惫的一周后，我只想窝在沙发看电视。这种分歧每次都会引发争执。

If I'm an introvert, I've had an exhausting week, I wanna sit on the couch and watch TV. And we're gonna fight every time about that.

传统夫妻常用的解决策略大多依赖协作能力。但如果双方长期存在冲突，这种协作能力想必也已受损。

So when we think about the common strategies that traditional couples use, many of them are highly dependent on their ability to collaborate. But if they've actually had a lot of conflict about something for a very long time, their ability to collaborate presumably has also been tarnished.

这正是关键所在。当你在实验室观察冲突中的伴侣时，会发现他们沟通能力极差，解决问题也一团糟，仿佛缺乏基本技能。但若让这两人分别与陌生人配对，他们的沟通和解决问题能力突然就正常了。这说明问题不在于技能缺失，

That seems to be the main thing that happens. When you have a conflictual couple together in the lab, it looks like they're terrible at communicating, and it looks like they're terrible at problem solving. Like, they actually have a skill deficit. But if you take those two people and pair them with two strangers, suddenly, they're really good at communicating and really good at problem solving. And so the implication of that isn't so much that they lack a skill.

而在于他们的情感环境已变得如此恶劣、充满敌意，以至于拒绝协作。他们并非没有良好的沟通和解决问题能力，只是不愿运用——因为我对你心怀怨愤，根本不想和你有效解决问题。

It's that the emotional environment in their relationship has become so toxic, so poisonous, so conflictual that they're not actually willing to collaborate. They're not willing to use the good communication and problem solving skills that they actually have because I don't wanna problem solve effectively with you. I'm mad at you.

詹姆斯，我猜你在实践中一定经常遇到这种情况吧。

I'm assuming you must see this all the time in your practice, James.

这是伴侣们来接受治疗时最常见的情况，他们陷入这种困境。就像我们常用的比喻——这就像中国的指压陷阱。对吧？他们每个人都拼命想要改变，结果越是努力改善，陷阱就收得越紧，最后精疲力竭。他们彻底激怒了对方，以至于常常发现唯一能看到的出路要么是治疗，要么是离婚。

It is the most common way that couples come into therapy, stuck in this. It's almost like one of the analogies we use is it's like a Chinese finger trap. Right? Like, each of them is pulling so hard for change that the harder they try to make things better, the the tighter the trap becomes, and they exhaust themselves. They frustrate each other so completely that often they find themselves in a spot where the only way that they can see forward towards some sort of escape is either therapy or divorce.

你曾试图帮助一对夫妻，其中父亲会与他18岁的儿子进行长时间交谈，这让妻子（儿子的继母）感到被排斥。詹姆斯，这对夫妻是如何试图改变对方的？

You were trying to help one couple who featured a dad who would have these long conversations with his 18 year old son that left his wife, this is the son's stepmom, feeling excluded. How did husband and wife try to change one another, James?

在这对夫妻中，丈夫和儿子长期以来习惯于深入讨论世界政治，有时谈话非常有趣，但这并不是妻子的兴趣所在。她发现自己感到被冷落、被忽视，这让她很受伤。她向丈夫表达了这一点，并要求他改变——她希望丈夫告诉儿子，他对她多么无礼、多么不体贴，因为他需要更多地让她参与他们的对话。但丈夫会为儿子辩护，不会以那种方式去指责儿子。相反，他会要求妻子改变。

So in this couple, the husband and his son just had a long history of being able to get into these deep, sometimes hilarious conversations about world politics, which wasn't a particular interest to to his wife. And she would find herself just feeling left out, sort of left behind, ignored, which she found really hurtful. And she expressed that to him as and and the change that she was pushing for was you need to talk to your son about how rude he's being to me and how thoughtless he's being to me because he needs to include me more in the conversations that we're having. And the husband would defend his son to her and would just, like, not confront him in that way. He would ask her for change.

比如，他会说，你只需要主动加入对话。对吧？比如，早上读读报纸，这样我们之后就能聊这些话题了。所以他们陷入了僵局：他试图让她更热情地加入他们的对话，而她试图让他的儿子对她更尊重。

Like, you just need to throw yourself into the conversation. Right? Like, maybe read the paper in the morning and, like, you know, in the service of, like, we're gonna have a conversation about this stuff later. So so that's where they got stuck. He's trying to get her to jump more enthusiastically into their conversations, and she's trying to get his son to be more respectful towards her.

所以你慢慢发现，夫妻需要一种可行的替代方案，而不是试图改变伴侣的行为。詹姆斯，你能解释一下这个顿悟以及你是如何得出这个结论的吗？

So you slowly started to see that couples needed a viable alternative to changing a partner's behavior. Can you explain this epiphany and how you came to it, James?

我认为，我和我的同事们开始意识到，我们已经尽力帮助夫妻改变他们在关系中要求改变的事情。但最终发现，剩下的问题是那些源于人与人之间自然差异的部分。我们的研究表明，真正具有腐蚀性的并不是存在无法解决的问题，而是夫妻如何处理和面对这些永恒的问题。有些夫妻能以幽默感对待这些永恒的问题，并在面对‘周五晚上我们该做什么？’这样的问题时保持希望。而另一些夫妻则陷入试图强迫对方改变的境地，这种强迫变得越来越极端。

I think what I started to to realize and and what colleagues of mine as well started to realize is that we had done everything that we could to help couples change the things that they were asking for change in the relationship. And, again, the discovery that what is left are the things that arise out of naturally occurring differences between people. And and it became clear that in our studies of different types of couples that it's really not the presence of unsolvable problems that is the problem that is corrosive, but how couples approach and relate to those perpetual problems. And for some couples, they can bring a kind of sense of humor to their perpetual issues, and they can maintain a sense of hopefulness as they confront yet again, what are we gonna do on Friday night? And for other couples, they get stuck in a place where they are trying to coerce each other to change, and the coercion just becomes more and more exaggerated.

我们不再配合伴侣双方持续试图改变彼此的行为，而是开始转向思考：接受伴侣间自然存在的差异会是怎样的情形？与那些通常让我们彼此疏远的关系摩擦点建立亲密感，又会是怎样的体验？我们能否真正利用这些摩擦点来加深连接而非制造隔阂？

And and rather than collude with the couple in their ongoing efforts to change each other, we began to shift towards what does it look like to accept these naturally occurring differences between partners? What does it look like to become intimate with the parts of our relationship, the the friction points in our relationship that usually make us turn away from each other? Can we actually find a way to use those points of friction to create deeper connection rather than disconnection?

所以当你开始探索伴侣间相互接纳而非试图改变对方的可能性时，你发现接纳的实践带来了诸多益处。其中之一就是亲密关系的情感氛围往往能立即得到改善。詹姆斯，这是如何实现的呢？

So once you started exploring the possibility that couples could work on accepting each other rather than trying to change one another, you found that the practice of acceptance came with a lot of benefits. And one of them was that the emotional climate of relationships was often immediately improved. How so, James?

关系中常见的毒性往往源于这种感觉——你试图在我无法改变的方面改变我，这就像是对我这个人本质的否定。于是我会通过试图改变你来反击，好让你能按照

So often, the toxicity in the relationship arises right out of that sense of you're trying to change me in a spot where I can't change, and that feels like a fundamental rejection of who I am as a person. And so I fight back by trying to get you to change so that you can just love me the

我本来的样子爱我。

way that I am.

而你想要这种改变，我的拒绝和坚持在某种程度上也是对你本质的否定。最终我们互相感到被否定，而人类对否定的反应无非是战斗或逃避——要么更激烈地对抗，要么开始放弃。

And and you're wanting that change, and my rejecting that and validating that is in some ways also a fundamental rejection of who you are as a person. So we end up feeling rejected by each other, And our, again, our reaction to rejection is some version of fight or flight. We either fight harder or we just start to give up.

詹姆斯，我们讨论过当伴侣试图改变对方时，产生的毒性常会破坏他们的协作能力。那么转向接纳的立场是否能提升人们的协作能力呢？

We talked about how, James, when couples are trying to change one another, it creates so much toxicity that they're often not able to then collaborate with one another. Does moving to an orientation of acceptance increase people's collaborative skills?

确实如此。这极具挑战性，因为其中的关键（如果算诀窍的话）在于：比起渴求被理解，更要主动理解对方。而这恰恰需要我们最渴望被理解的时刻付诸实践。但如果我能深呼吸，暂时以慈悲心包容自己的需求，优先理解你的诉求并与之共情，自然就会对你的处境产生更多体谅。当这种体谅产生时，帮助的意愿便油然而生。

It it does. It is, it is so challenging because the the the the trick, if it's a trick, is to seek to understand more than to seek to be understood. And that is needed in a moment when the thing we are most desperate for is to be understood. But if we can, if if I can take a deep breath, hold my own wanting with some compassion for a moment, and prioritize understanding what you're asking of me and prioritize empathizing with what you're asking of me, then what naturally occurs is that I start to feel more compassion for where you're coming from. And when I start to feel more compassion for where you're coming from, then I wanna help.

但如果我陷入一个需要你理解我的境地，我就无法触及那份自然促使我想与你协作的共情力。

But if I'm stuck in a place where I need you to understand me, I can't access the compassion that naturally makes me wanna collaborate with you.

詹姆斯，我在研究中注意到另一个悖论：当我们在关系中感到不快乐时，可能会觉得试图改变对方是在捍卫自我，因为所受的对待不公正。而保持正直或勇敢意味着我们要站出来对抗这种不公。你能谈谈吗？当我们把快乐系于他人改变时，实际上反而让渡了部分自主权？

There's another paradox that I'm noticing in some of this work, James, which is that when we are unhappy in relationships, we may feel like we are trying to change the other person because we want to stand up for ourselves, because the way we are being treated is unjust and unfair. And and being a person of integrity or being a person of courage means that we stand up and we try and fight against this thing that is that is unjust or or unfair. Can you talk a moment about the idea that when we tie our happiness to another person changing, paradoxically, we've actually surrendered some portion of our own agency?

这正是我常与伴侣们探讨的——如果我的情绪好转完全取决于你的改变，那我就陷入了自我合理化的被动状态。除了抱怨和期待你改变，我无能为力。尤其在持久矛盾中（其实几乎所有冲突皆如此），重获主动权、改善关系并深化亲密的方式，就是成为先行动的那个人。

And this is something that I that I work with couples on often, that if the only way for me to feel better is for you to do something differently, then I'm trapped in a place where I'm in a sort of self justifying passivity. I don't have to do anything. I can't do anything except maybe complain and and hope for you to change. And especially when it comes to perpetual issues, but I would say that this is true for almost all areas of conflict. The way that we can reclaim our agency, the way that we can reclaim our power to have a positive effect on our relationship and to deepen the intimacy in the relationship is to be the one who moves first.

通常这只需要彻底理解伴侣的立场。我称之为培养'柔软前襟与坚强脊背'的能力：既能全然共情地理解对方，又不必放弃自己的立场与在乎之事。这是种全面的共情，既包含对自身需求的慈悲，也包含对伴侣需求的真诚体谅。

And and oftentimes, that's simply let me make sure that I thoroughly understand where my partner is coming from. And and the cultivation of that skill, I talk about as developing a soft front and a strong back so that I can understand where my partner is coming from. I can understand where the other person is coming from with absolute compassion and empathy. But that doesn't mean I have to give up where I'm coming from and what matters to me. So it is a well rounded compassion, one that involves compassion both for myself and my own wants and needs as well as genuine compassion for my partner and my partner's wants and needs.

我猜有些行为是你不会建议人们接受的。比如遭遇肢体虐待时，你肯定不会要求受害者默默承受吧？

I'm assuming there must be some behaviors that you are not asking people to accept. If someone is being physically abused, for example, I'm sure you're not asking that person to simply accept the abuse. Right?

当然不。我的判断标准是：那些真正贬损人格的行为不可接受。如果某种'改变'或'接纳'会让我的人格疆域萎缩，使自我认知更狭隘，那么为维系关系付出这种代价就太高了。

No. Absolutely not. The way that I think about this is the things that are unacceptable are the things that actually diminish us as a person. So if changing in this way, if accepting this from my partner makes my world smaller, makes me more constricted in my sense of identity or self, then that is too high a price to pay for connection.

詹姆斯的研究和临床经验表明：当我们将试图改变伴侣的能量转向接纳时，新世界便随之开启。稍后回来探讨：如何接纳伴侣的本真？这里是《隐藏大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

James' research and clinical experience suggest that when we take all the energy we have invested in changing our partner and orient our efforts into accepting them, a world of new possibilities opens up. When we come back, how to accept our partners for who they are? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。你是否曾花费数年时间试图改变你的伴侣？你成功了吗？还是失败了？如果你有任何问题或想法想与《隐藏的大脑》听众分享，请用手机录制一段简短的语音备忘录，发送至我们的邮箱ideas@hiddenbrain.org。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. Have you spent years trying to change your partner? Have you succeeded? Have you failed? If you have questions or comments you'd like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a short voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideas@hiddenbrain.org.

邮件主题请注明“接纳”。詹姆斯·科尔多瓦是克拉克大学的心理学家，著有《通往与伴侣建立更深连接的正念之路》一书。詹姆斯，你曾辅导过一对夫妻，他们在彼此需要多少关注和亲密感的问题上存在分歧。请谈谈这对夫妻，以及你如何用植物学中的比喻向他们解释彼此的行为。

Use the subject line acceptance. James Cordova is a psychologist at Clark University. He is the author of The Mindful Path to Cultivating a Deeper Connection with Your Partner. James, you were once working with a couple who found themselves at odds with each other in terms of how much attention and intimacy each of them needed. Tell me about this couple and an analogy you use from the world of botany to explain their behavior to each other.

伴侣之间在对相互依赖、相互连接的需求与对独立性的需求上，往往存在根本性差异。我们都需要这两者的平衡。我们使用的植物学比喻是：有些人更像仙人掌，有些人更像蕨类植物。前者如同沙漠植物，后者如同雨林植物。在这个比喻中，湿度、水分、降雨量象征着关注、共处时间等所有体现相互连接的维度。

There seems to be oftentimes a fundamental difference between partners in terms of our need for interdependence, interconnection, and our need for independence. And we all need a little bit of both. And the the botany metaphor that we use is some people are more like cactuses, and some people are more like ferns. So some people are more like desert plants, and some people are more like rainforest plants. And in this metaphor, humidity, water, rainfall is attention, time together, and all those things that are dimensions of of interconnectedness.

对于我们中更像蕨类植物的人——这正是你问到的那对夫妻中的情况。在那段关系中，妻子更像蕨类，非常依赖大量共处时间以及言语和身体上的亲密。而丈夫则热衷于许多独立活动，非常投入工作，喜欢木工、骑行这类独立爱好，也就是那些锻炼性质的活动。他们会激烈争吵，她指责他自私，他则说她黏人——这就是他们来接受治疗时陷入的僵局。

And so for some of us who are more like ferns, and this was this was what's true in the couple that you're asking about. So in that relationship, the wife was more of a fern and really thrived on lots of time together, lots of verbal and physical affection. And the husband was into a lot of independent activities, really into his work, really into independent hobbies, like carpentry and cycling, that, you know, sort of exercise kinds of things. And they would have, you know, terrible fights about her calling him selfish and him calling her clingy. And this was the the tight knot that they came into therapy with.

我们在共同治疗中发现：'啊，你们的关系中存在着仙人掌与蕨类的模式。你更像仙人掌，你更像蕨类。当你们试图满足仙人掌时，蕨类就会干枯凋零；而当你们试图满足蕨类时，仙人掌又会感到窒息腐烂。'

As we discovered this in our work together, oh, what's happening here is you've got a cactus and fern pattern happening in your relationship. You're more like a cactus. You're more like a fern. And when you try to make the cactus happy, the fern just just drying up and dying. And when you're trying to make the fern happy, the cactus is feeling, like, overwhelmed and rotting.

但当你们意识到彼此只是不同类型的植物时，就能真正协作，以巧妙的方式相爱。我反复发现——这对夫妻尤其明显——当我指出'你们可能一个像仙人掌，一个像蕨类'时，他们眼睛顿时发亮，大笑起来。因为这个比喻让他们看到了自己：'那就是我们！'她拍着他的肩膀说——

But when you can recognize that you're just different types of plants, then you can actually collaborate on being good and loving each other skillfully. And what I find over and over again, and this couple in particular, is like, oh, I think you guys might be like, you're more like a cactus, and you're more like a fern. Their eyes just lit up, and they started laughing, right, because they recognized themselves in the metaphor. Like, that is us. You are she's like slapping his shoulder.

'你就像仙人掌'，他回应道'你就像蕨类'。这种关系模式被识破后，他们感到欣喜。你能明显感觉到冲突的释然：'噢，我永远无法将蕨类伴侣变成仙人掌，也永远无法把仙人掌改造成蕨类。'

You are like a cactus. And he's like, you are like a fern. And and there was a delight in the recognition of that pattern in their relationship. And you could just feel the release from the conflict. Oh, like, I'm never gonna win a battle to turn my fern partner into a cactus, and I'm never gonna win the battle to turn my cactus into a fern.

但我可以学会如何爱一株仙人掌，也可以学会如何爱一株蕨类植物。只是我们之前没意识到这点。可一旦看清后，解决方法就显得如此显而易见。

But I can learn how to love a cactus, and I can learn how to love a fern. And we just didn't see it before. But once we saw it, the solution seemed so obvious.

所以这对夫妇完美诠释了识别并标记关系中反复出现模式的重要性。詹姆斯，请谈谈这种做法对促进接纳的重要意义。

So this couple is an excellent example of the importance of actually identifying and labeling the patterns that come up again and again in relationships. Talk about the importance of doing this in promoting acceptance, James.

这至关重要。我们都对自己关系中的典型模式视而不见。比如一方热衷消费，另一方偏爱储蓄，于是陷入我们所谓的'挥霍者与储蓄者'模式，却浑然不觉。最终只会为是否购买新电视这类事争吵不休。

It's so important. We're all blind to the patterns that are characteristic of our relationship. You know, one of us is more delighted by spending, and the other of us is more delighted by saving. And we get stuck in what we call a spender saver pattern, but we can't see it ourselves. And we just end up fighting about whether or not to get a brand new TV.

结果一方被说吝啬，另一方被称败家。但若能看清模式——原来我们困在'挥霍者与储蓄者'模式里，困在'仙人掌与蕨类'模式里——给它命名后，反而很难再继续这种行为了。

And one of us gets called cheap, and the other one gets called, you know, a spendthrift. But if we can see the pattern, oh, we're stuck in a spender saver pattern. We're stuck in a cactus fern pattern. Being able to name it actually makes it really hard to continue doing it.

你说要推动关系发展，提升接纳度的方法之一是将关系问题拟物化，称之为'它'。詹姆斯，这是什么意思？

You say that if we had to move forward in our relationships, one way to increase our acceptance is to label the problems that we have in our relationship as inanimate, to call them an it. What do you mean by this, James?

这个'它'可以是我们之间自然差异催生的模式。既不是你的错，也不是我的错，而是这种衍生属性的问题。就像之前提到的挥霍者与储蓄者模式——其中一方渴望的是'我不只为工作而活'的感觉。

So the it can be the pattern that emerges out of a naturally occurring difference between the two of us. Like, it's not your fault, and and it's not my fault. It is this emergent property's fault. So I alluded to this pattern of the spender and saver earlier. And in that pattern, one partner realizes that what I want so desperately is I want to feel like I'm not living just to work.

我想用赚取的资源感受生活丰盈，而储蓄型伴侣则视金钱为安全网。当追求丰盈感的挥霍者购买令人愉悦的商品时，另一方觉得他们在抽走安全网的绳索，于是恐慌地指责对方挥霍无度、不懂预算。而当储蓄者把钱埋进后院罐头里时，挥霍者又觉得生活像暗无天日的黑洞。

I wanna be able to take the money, the resources that I earn to feel abundance in my life. And the other partner, the the saver partner feels more like the emotional meaning of money is a safety net. And in these relationships, when the spender partner, the partner who is seeking a feeling of abundance goes to the store to buy something that feels yummy, it feels to the other partner like they're pulling strands out of their safety net. And they panic and say terrible things about, you know, how much money they spend and how they can't control their budget and can't they do math. And when the other partner, when the saver partner is, you know, taking the money that they have and squirreling it away in a soup can in the backyard, the the spender partner feels like, oh, we're just in this dark little hole where no light or color ever gets in.

这种模式会在伴侣间制造巨大的痛苦与冲突。但当我们能意识到，一方是出于恐惧，另一方是源于匮乏感时，我们就能更好地应对——比如，我该如何关怀有些害怕的伴侣？让我怀着同理心，慷慨地往共同账户存钱，表明我在乎你恐惧的事物。而当我能理解伴侣需要那种色彩、需要丰盈感时，我也可以通过安排共同消费来创造回忆、共享欢乐时光，以此向伴侣展现慷慨。

That kind of pattern can create so much distress and conflict between partners. But when we can recognize that for one partner, it's driven by fear, and for the other partner, it's driven by a sense of of lack, then we're in a better position to be able to, like, well, how do I take care of my partner who's a little bit afraid? Let let let me compassionately, generously put money in our savings account to show that what scares you matters to me. And when I can compassionately understand that my partner needs that color, needs that feeling of abundance, then I can compassionately be generous toward my partner by making sure that we are spending some of our money to do things that are making memories and having joyful times together.

某种程度上，詹姆斯，我理解你的意思是：我们对待伴侣的性格特质和小毛病，应该像对待身体残疾那样。比如伴侣脚部骨折时，我们虽不能共舞，但不会责怪对方，只会说'TA脚受伤了'。你提倡的是用同样的同理心看待问题——意识到所有矛盾都源于某种外在因素，这个独立于我们双方之外的事物才是该被归咎的对象。

I mean, in some ways, what I hear you saying, James, is that we should treat our partner's personality traits and foibles almost like, you know, physical disabilities. So if, for example, my partner had a fractured foot, you know, we might not be able to go dancing together, but I'm not going to blame my partner for not being able to go dancing. Would just say my partner has a fractured foot. What you're saying is that we should bring that same compassion, the sense that whatever the problem is, it's being driven by this external thing, this thing that's external to both of us, and blame that thing rather than blame my partner.

正是如此。这种态度蕴含着深刻的慷慨与谦卑——我们都在尽力而为不是吗？既有让我骄傲的闪光点，同时自己也是个行走的垃圾场。

Exactly. And and it it there's a there's a deep sense of both generosity and and, I think, humility in that stance. Like, we're all just doing our best out here. Right? This complicated collection of things that I'm super proud of about who I am and the way in which I'm really just a rolling dumpster fire.

对吧？而关系中最深层的亲密与安全感，恰恰来自伴侣看清我这个垃圾场却依然接纳——甚至正因为如此才爱我。当我能给予她这种包容时，这样的关系才能经得起时间考验。

Right? And and and what elicits that deep sense of intimacy and intimate safety in a relationship is knowing that my partner can see what a dumpster fire I am and is accepting of that. Like, loves me, again, not even any way, but almost because. And when I can offer that to her, that is a that's a relationship that will stand the test of time.

詹姆斯，节目前面你提到妻子情感敏感，这曾因你调侃她引发紧张。最近你反思过，最初正是这种特质吸引了你。能否聊聊你妻子的敏感性具体表现？比如当你们共同驾车时的情景？

We talked earlier in the episode, James, about how your wife is quite emotionally sensitive and how this has caused some tension between you when you engaged in teasing her. In recent times, you've had reason to reflect on what it was about that quality of your wife's that drew you to her in the first place. I wonder if you could tell us a bit about how your wife's sensitivity plays out, especially when the two of you are in the car driving somewhere together.

是的。最初吸引我的就是她那份温柔赤诚。典型场景是驾车时——如果我率先看到路毙动物，会立即转移她视线。因为对她而言，每次见到路边伤亡的小生命都令她心碎。

Yeah. One of the things that I remember is the the the quality of my wife that I've was what was most delightful for me, most most attractive to me when I was first getting to know her is just how tenderhearted she is, how openly openhearted she is in the world. And the the example that comes up for me is my wife is is one of these people that when we're driving down the road, if I'm the first person to see roadkill, I try to distract her from that. Like, look over there. Because because to her, when she sees an animal that has been killed or hurt on the side of the road, it is heartbreaking every time.

她会立刻想到那个小生命本可以拥有的人生，想到它正在思念它的家人，每次都会落泪。这种对万物深切的共情力令我动容。当然，这份柔软也使得她经不起调侃——她灵魂中最美的特质，恰恰也是相处中的挑战，因为我的嬉闹对她而言总是不够温柔。

Her mind immediately goes to the life that that little creature could have lived, the family that that little creature has that's probably missing them, and and every time she weeps. And and I've always found that that deep compassion for others just gorgeous. And and, of course, that tenderheartedness is simultaneously part of what makes her so sensitive to teasing. So so the the very thing that I find so beautiful about her soul is also the thing that can sometimes be challenging for me in that that the rough and tumble of teasing is not gentle enough for her.

在下周的节目中，我们将再次邀请詹姆斯·科多弗来探讨接纳伴侣过程中最棘手的挑战之一。这虽是一剂苦药，却能让你们的关系变得更好。

In our episode next week, we'll bring James Cordover back to talk about one of the most difficult challenges in accepting your partner. It's tough medicine, but it has the power to change your relationship for the better.

这就像学习弹吉他、写诗歌或运动一样。没有人一开始就能做得很好。第一次拿起吉他时，你的弹奏会很难听。

It's like learning how to play the guitar. It's like learning how to write poetry. It's like learning a sport. Like, nobody's good at it right away. The first time you pick up a guitar, you sound awful.

但如果你想在生活中拥有优美动人的音乐，就必须练习。如果你想在关系中拥有深厚持久的亲密感，也必须练习。

But if you want beautiful, graceful music in your life, you have to practice. If you want deep sustaining intimacy in your relationship, you have to practice.

詹姆斯·科尔多瓦作品的核心主题之一是：我们应该像关注身体健康那样关注关系健康。我们需要定期评估关系，对问题保持警觉。在Hidden Brain Plus的配套故事中，我们探讨了詹姆斯建议伴侣们用于评估关系优劣势的一系列问题。及早发现问题可以在它们变得棘手之前进行修复。这期配套节目名为《你的婚姻有多坚固？》。

One theme that runs through much of James Cordova's work is that we should think about the health of our relationships the same way we think about our physical health. We should get regular evaluations and stay vigilant to problems. In our companion story on Hidden Brain plus we explore a series of questions that James suggests that couples ask themselves to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of their relationships. Spotting problems early can allow you to fix problems before they become intractable. Our companion episode is called How Strong is Your Marriage?

订阅用户可立即收听该期及所有专属内容。若尚未订阅，现在正是好时机。九月期间通过Apple Podcasts订阅的听众将获得Hidden Brain Plus的30天延长免费试用。参与方式：在Apple Podcasts找到Hidden Brain点击「免费试用」或「订阅」按钮，或访问apple.co/hiddenbrain。您的支持能让我们制作更多这样的节目。

If you are a subscriber, you can listen to that episode and all of our subscriber only content immediately. If you haven't signed up yet, now is a great time to do so. Any listener who subscribes via Apple Podcasts during the month of September will receive an extended thirty day free trial of Hidden Brain plus To take advantage of that trial, find Hidden Brain in Apple Podcasts and click the Try Free or Subscribe button. Or you can go to apple.co/hiddenbrain. Your support helps us bring you more episodes like this one.

我们衷心感谢您的帮助。广告之后，解答听众疑问。听众们将分享关于如何发现和保持人生激情的思考与提问。您正在收听的是Hidden Brain，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

We're truly grateful for your help. After the break, your questions answered. Listeners share their thoughts and questions about how to discover and maintain their passions in life. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这里是Hidden Brain，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。菲尔·汉森成长过程中痴迷于艺术，特别是点彩画这种形式。他会在空白页面上绘制数千个微小圆点，这些圆点共同构成令人惊叹的肖像画。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. When he was growing up, Phil Hansen became obsessed with art, specifically an art form called pointillism. Phil would draw thousands of tiny dots on a blank page. Taken together, the dots formed a stunning portrait.

菲尔梦想成为一名职业艺术家。为此他进入艺术学院提升技艺。但后来，他患上了永久性神经损伤。当他小心翼翼地点缀每个圆点时，双手开始不受控制地颤抖。那些圆点逐渐变成了歪歪扭扭的线条。

Phil dreamed of becoming a professional artist. So he went to art school to improve his skills. But then, he developed permanent nerve damage. His hands started shaking as he carefully placed each dot. The dots began to look like squiggles.

为了弥补缺陷，菲尔把笔握得越来越紧。他的手却抖得越来越厉害。最终疼痛难忍，连拿东西都困难。这些身体上的挑战逐渐消磨了菲尔对艺术的热情。他辍学放弃了梦想。

To compensate, Phil gripped his pen tighter and tighter. His hand got shakier and shakier. Eventually, he was in so much pain, he had trouble holding anything. These physical challenges took a toll on Phil's enthusiasm for art. He quit art school and gave up his dream.

在我们人生的不同阶段，许多人在追求兴趣时都会遭遇类似的阻碍。起初我们满怀成长与发展的渴望。而后现实横亘其间。激情随时间流逝而消退。我们曾在《隐藏大脑》往期节目中，与哈佛商学院行为科学家扬·亚希莫维奇探讨过这些主题。

At various points in our lives, many of us will face similar roadblocks in pursuing our interests. We start out with a desire to develop and grow. Then life gets in the way. We lose our passion over time. We explored these themes with Harvard Business School behavioral scientist Jan Yahimovich on two previous episodes of Hidden Brain.

若您错过那两期节目，标题分别是《U2.0版：激情药丸》及《隐藏大脑+》中的《U2.0版：如何摆脱倦怠感》。今天扬将回归节目，解答听众关于保持激情的疑问。扬·亚希莫维奇，欢迎回到《隐藏大脑》。

If you missed those episodes, they are titled U two point zero, The Passion Pill, and on Hidden Brain Plus, U two point zero, How to Stop Feeling Burned Out. Today, Jan returns to answer listener questions about how to keep our passions alive. Jan Yahimovich, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢邀请我参与第二部分的讨论。

Thanks so much for having me for part two.

扬，节目后期我们会讲述菲尔·汉森的最终结局。但在你学术生涯初期，你也经历过类似的激情维系困境。你向学术期刊投递了重要论文，经过艰辛努力终于发表。请再为我们回忆下，实现这个重大目标后发生了什么？

So Jan, later in the episode, we'll share what ended up happening to Phil Hansen. But at the start of your academic career, you experienced a similar struggle maintaining your passion. You submitted an important paper to an academic journal. You had worked really hard on it, and it got published. Remind us of what happened after you achieved that big goal.

当然。我对后续发展抱有极高期待。这篇论文倾注了我的心血，某种意义上是我学术旅程的巅峰，看到它付梓时无比自豪。我原以为论文发表后会引发媒体关注，政策制定者会对我们的发现产生浓厚兴趣，甚至可能促成某些变革。

Absolutely. I had really high expectations for what would happen next. I had worked really hard on this paper. In many ways, it was the culmination of my intellectual journey, and I was so proud to finally see that paper in print. I was hoping that after that paper would come into press, that there would be media attention, that public policy workers would become really interested and excited about what we have found, and that perhaps some change would happen.

但随着日子一天天过去，几周过去了，我没有收到任何人的消息，这对我来说真的很难应对。回想起来，我可以说我当时过于理想化，甚至可能有些天真。但那时，我只记得自己感到心碎，因为我为之付出巨大努力的事情，本应成功或我认为会成功的事情，最终却感觉如此空洞。那篇论文上线后，没有任何后续。你甚至再也拿不到实体版了。

But as the days passed, the weeks passed, I heard nothing from nobody, and that was really challenging for me to deal with. I mean, looking back, I can say I was overly idealistic, perhaps even naive. But back then, I I just remember feeling so shattered because what I had worked so hard for and what should have been a success or what I thought would be a success ultimately just felt so empty. Nothing followed after that paper went online. You don't even get the physical copy anymore.

它只是出现在一个网站上，上面有你的名字。所以在接下来的几天和几周里，我不断问自己：我为什么要做这些？这一切的意义是什么？我以为我做这项研究是因为它最终可能改变世界，而现在我已经完成了最困难的部分——完成了研究环节，至少我当时是这么想的。

It just appears on a website with your name on it. So And I remember in the in the days and weeks afterwards asking myself, why am I doing this? Like, what is it all for? I thought I'm doing this research because it could eventually make a difference in the world, and now I have done the hard part. I've done the research bit, or that's what I thought.

而现在，产生影响的部分应该会容易得多。因此，第二天回来继续处理我必须完成的其他研究工作时，我感到非常艰难。当时我还在写其他论文。完成一篇论文并不意味着其他论文不需要撰写或不需要分析数据。但当我明知上次的努力并未真正带来改变时，第二天仍要回到办公室，试图分析数据或撰写论文。

And now the making a difference bit will be a lot easier. And so it was challenging for me to then come back the next day and work on all the other research that I had to do. I was working on other papers at the time. Just because I'd finished one paper doesn't mean that other papers didn't need to be written on and didn't need to analyze data for. But then showing up to my office the next day and coming back and trying to analyze data or write a paper when I knew this didn't really make a difference the last time.

这次又有什么不同呢？这真的非常、非常具有挑战性。

Why would it be any different this time? That was really, really challenging.

正如你在我们最初谈话中提到的，简，这段经历激发了你将‘激情’作为研究课题的兴趣。当你开始深入研究并调查人们时，发现许多人追求激情，但他们的挑战在于长期维持这种激情。请详细说说，为什么会这样？

So as you told us in our initial conversations, Jan, this experience that you had helped to pique your interest in passion as a research topic. And once you started digging into the topic and surveying people, you found that many people pursue their passions, but their challenge is maintaining those passions over the long haul. Say more about this. How so?

是的。我认为那段时期我领悟到的关键点是：激情不是你拥有的东西，而是需要持续维系的东西。激情就像一朵娇嫩的花，你需要照料它，给它浇水，修剪枝叶。

Yeah. So I I think the key insight that I learned in that time was that passion isn't something that you have, but something that you have to sustain. Meaning that passion kind of like a delicate flower, you have to look after it. You have to water it. You have to prune it.

你必须确保它有足够的阳光。它不会自己生长并绽放美丽的花朵。但当我开始这个项目并真正思考关于激情的研究时，我把那些充满激情的人看作与我不同的人，仿佛他们有什么特别之处，拥有我所没有的东西，因此我可能永远无法像他们那样充满激情。这意味着，如果我对某事失去激情，我会推断自己有问题，进而永远无法成为像他们那样的人。但最终我发现，几乎所有与我交谈的人都有过失去激情的经历，都意识到激情是需要维持的。他们各自学会了多种多样的实践方法——因为并没有现成的规范，而是形成了一些定期采用的策略，使他们能够日复一日地保持激情，同时也内心接纳：并非每天都能感受到那种激情也没关系。

You have to make sure it gets enough sunlight. It doesn't just grow and bloom beautifully by itself. But when I was, starting this project and really starting to think about my research on passion, I looked at passionate people as if they were different from me, as if there was something different about those people that they were special, that they had something that I didn't have, and that as a result, I might never be as passionate as they would be. Meaning, if I lost passion for something, the inference that I draw from that is that there's something wrong with me and that, in turn, I will never become someone like them. But what I ended up actually learning is that almost everybody that I talked to had an experience of having fallen out of passion, of having to learn that passion is something that they have to maintain, and that there was a wide variety of practices that they had all learned for themselves because there was nothing really codified, but strategies that they now engaged in on a regular basis that allowed them to sustain that passion day in and day out, as well as an acknowledgment, kind of an acceptance internally that it's okay if you don't feel that passion every single day.

人们常说失去激情的一个原因是，他们感觉自己陷入了日常工作的琐碎中。那些必须完成的无聊小任务，在某种程度上削弱了我们对所热爱事物的热情。一位名叫胡里奥的听众问道，在培养职业激情的过程中，例行公事如何融入这一理念？我们能否对一份工作保持足够的热情，从而形成例行公事并享受这个过程？

So one reason that people say they lose their passion is that they feel like they have gotten bogged down in the day to day of whatever they're doing. So the little boring tasks that need to get done, you know, in some ways detract from what we are passionate about. A listener named Julio asks, how does routine fit into the idea of developing a passion for a career? Can we have enough passion for a job to develop a routine and enjoy the process?

胡里奥提出了一个很好的问题。我认为这里需要厘清两点。首先，在许多工作中，我们处理的大部分任务本身并不令人满足。这就是研究中所谓的‘内在动机’——任务本身能带来极大满足感，我们仅通过执行任务就能获得很多。当我做研究时，绝大部分时间其实并不有趣。

That's a great question from Julio. And I think there's two things really to tease apart there. I think one is that in many jobs, the majority of the tasks that we work on aren't in and of themselves gratifying. This is what research calls intrinsic motivation, that the task in and of itself is really gratifying, that we get a lot out of just doing the task in and of itself. When I do research, the vast majority of my time is not really fun.

比如我写作、分析数据。像现在做这次访谈是为数不多真正享受的时刻，所以谢谢你，尚卡尔。但绝大多数时候并非如此。不过我认为还有第二个关键原因。

Like, I write. I analyze data. Like, doing this interview is one of the few times that it this is, like, actually inherently enjoyable, so thank you, Shankar, for that. But the vast majority of time, it really isn't. But there's a second reason that I think is really helpful.

有种理论叫‘解释水平理论’。该理论认为我们可以从两个层面思考任务：具体层面只关注任务本身——我正在做什么具体工作？它需要我付出什么？

There's research on what's called construal level theory. Constual level theory suggests that we can think of a task at two different levels of analysis. We can think of a task just in and of a task itself. What is a task that I'm doing concretely? What does it require from me?

这个任务能帮我实现什么？仅狭隘地看待任务本身。但在更抽象的层面，如果我拉远视角，这个任务如何与我其他工作、同事的工作、组织的目标相契合？当思考我们试图实现的更宏大使命时？安德鲁·卡顿等人的研究表明，当人们看到事物的宏观愿景，并能将日常工作与真正关心的大目标联系起来时，这也会成为意义感的重要来源。但建立这种联系可能很有挑战性，我们往往需要依赖他人（如领导者）来明确揭示这种关联。

What does this task help me accomplish? Just by looking very narrowly at the task. But at a more abstract level, if I were to zoom out, where does this task fit in with all the other things that I am working on, that my coworkers are working on, that the organization is trying to accomplish when I'm thinking of the broader mission of what we're trying to accomplish? Andrew Carton and others have done research showing that when people see the broader vision of something and they're able to connect what they do day to day to the broader vision of what it is that they actually care about, that can also be a real source of meaningfulness. But doing that connection can be really challenging, and it's something that we often depend on other people, like our leaders, to do for us explicitly.

所以简，听到有听众为职业倦怠困扰或许并不意外。他们起初对项目充满热情，但投入后拼命工作，却发现难以长期维持。这是来自听众里姆的相关提问。

So it's perhaps not surprising, Jan, to know that we heard from listeners who struggle with burnout. They start out feeling passionately about a project, but then they dive in and work really hard. And then they find they can't sustain that over the long term. Here's a question about that from a listener named Reem.

关于时间维度，我想知道我们能持续这种高强度工作状态多久——熬夜加班、强迫自己完成艰难任务。这种状态可持续多长时间？当然这取决于个人心理健康状况。思考这个问题很有意思：这真的是短期痛苦换取长期收益吗？

In terms of time, I was just wondering how long we can sustain these kind of phases where we're just working really hard, where we're working really late, where we're just, like, forcing ourselves to do something really hard. How long is that sustainable? And I know that's that's obviously depending on the individual and individual mental health. It's just really interesting to think about. Is it really short term pain for long term gain?

还是说，如果我们一直强迫自己，这只是在养成习惯？这样会有危险吗？

Or is it just habit building if we sort of keep forcing ourselves? Like, dangerous is that?

Jan，你怎么看Reem的问题？

What do you make of Reem's question, Jan?

是的，Reem，这是个很好的问题，感谢你提出这个问题。我认为有一种思考方式可能对Reem以及其他有类似困扰的人有所帮助。你需要思考的是：你正在做的事情是短跑还是马拉松？如果是短跑，那么它不必具有可持续性。

Yeah. That's a great question, Reem, and thank you for submitting that. I think that there's a way of thinking about it that could be helpful for Reem and maybe for others who are struggling with that as well. Is what you're working on a sprint or a marathon? Because if it's a sprint, then it doesn't have to be sustainable.

在短期内，当你对某件事充满热情时，完全可以全力以赴，即使生活暂时显得有些不平衡，所谓的工作与生活平衡不复存在，完全倾斜于你正在从事的事情。但我想说的是，对我们大多数人而言，我们热衷的事情往往不是短跑，而是马拉松。它们是长期的，可能需要数日、数周、甚至数月或数年来完成。因此，我们需要问自己的问题不是‘我今天能付出多少’，而是‘我今天能做些什么，确保明天、后天乃至更久之后，我依然保持这份热情？’我们在一篇论文中发现，在任何一天，人们越热情，工作时间就越长——这很好，很棒。

It is totally fine if for a very short time period when you feel really passionate about something that you truly do give it your all and where perhaps life feels a little unbalanced, where the famous work life balance doesn't exist, and it fully tilts toward what it is that you're working on. But I would argue that more often than not, for many of us, the things that we are passionate about are not like sprints, but they're more like marathons. They're very long term things that might take days, weeks, or even months and years to accomplish. And for that, I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is not how can I give my all today, but what can I do today to make sure that I'm still as passionate tomorrow and the next day and the next day? We find in one of our papers that on any given day, the more passionate people are, the longer they work that is fine that's wonderful.

但到了第二天，他们会感到更情绪枯竭，这使得他们更难再次激发那种热情，因为我们需要这些情感资源来日复一日地感受和体验热情。所以，或许有点反直觉的是，在我们最充满热情的日子里，我们应该最谨慎地对待自己的付出，甚至可能需要退后一步。

But on the next day, they are more emotionally exhausted, and that makes it harder for them to actually muster that passion again because we require those emotional resources to feel and experience that passion day in, day out. So perhaps a little counterintuitively, on our most passionate days, we should be most careful in how much of ourselves we give and perhaps even take a step back.

‘倦怠’这个词在学术环境和公共场合都被广泛使用，有时对不同的人有不同的含义。但你们是否做过任何研究，探讨倦怠的预警信号可能是什么？我们何时才能真正说，我现在经历的不仅仅是短期的小问题，而是更严重事情的征兆？

So the term burnout has been used very widely in both academic settings as well as in public settings, and the term sometimes means different things to different people. But have you done any work that looks at what the warning signs of burnout might be? When do we actually have to say, what I'm experiencing now is not just a short term blip, but actually a sign of something more serious?

是的，这是个很好的问题。倦怠的一个组成部分是缺乏自我效能感。缺乏自我效能感意味着我感觉今天所做的事情不再有意义，我认为自己缺乏完成它所需的技能。

Yeah. That's a great question. So one component of burnout is a lack of self efficacy. A lack of self efficacy means I don't really feel like what I'm doing today makes a difference anymore. I don't think I have the skills necessary to do that.

我感觉对自己所做的事情毫无掌控感，因此当工作似乎无法再推动进展时，会感到非常挫败。解决之道并非休假，而是思考能否转向能产生影响的其他事务，或者是否需要提升技能以真正发挥作用。这是职业倦怠的一个方面。第二个方面是人们通常联想到的情绪耗竭——当人们感觉自己的情感油箱已空。

I don't feel like I have any any sense of control over what I'm doing, and so it can feel really defeating when what I'm working on doesn't really seem like it's moving the needle anymore. The prescription there is not really taking any time off, but trying to figure out, can I work on other things where I could make a difference, or do I need to figure out how I can develop a better skill set that would actually allow me to make a difference? That's one of the components of burnout. The second component of burnout is what I think people often think about when they think about burnout, which is emotional exhaustion. That is when people feel like their emotional tank is empty.

他们内心已难再承载丰富情绪，这种状态对积极和消极情绪都有影响。我们可能更难感受到快乐、兴奋与热情，但同时也难以体验那些重要的负面情绪——这些情绪本是我们应对外界环境的有益信号。短期缓解情绪耗竭的常规方案包括休假、暂停工作以实现心理抽离；长期则需建立更可持续的工作关系，确保工作日之间有足够恢复时间，或在经历高强度情绪工作日后延长恢复期。但职业倦怠还有第三个常被忽视的根源：玩世不恭——即你不再相信自己正在做的事情。

They don't really have a lot in them anymore to feel a lot of emotions anymore, and it can be both positive and negative effects. So we might find it harder to feel joy, excitement, enthusiasm, but it can also be really difficult for us to feel a lot of the negative emotions that are important for us to experience because they are helpful signals of how we react to the external environment. And, typically, the prescribed solutions for emotional exhaustion in the short term is something like a vacation, a break, having psychological detachment from your work, and in the long term, a more sustainable relationship to your work, making sure that in between workdays, you have adequate time to recover, or that if you have a particularly emotionally intense workday, that you take some more time to recover, and so on. But there's a third source of burnout that I think often goes missing, and that component is called cynicism. That is when you no longer believe in what it is that you are doing.

当你陷入愤世嫉俗时，任何假期或技能提升都无济于事。此时你需要重获灵感，重新追问自己最初的动机。但在充满怀疑的心态下持续付出，实在是举步维艰。

And when you're feeling cynical, no vacation is going to fix that. No amount of upskilling is going to fix that. When you're feeling cynical, what you need is to feel inspired again. You need to remind yourself, why am I doing this to begin with? But it's really difficult to continue giving more of yourself when you're feeling cynical.

这是最难逆转的状态之一，它往往悄然侵袭，等我们察觉时为时已晚。因此在自我诊断时，不妨思考：我当前正经历什么？是否情绪枯竭？是否需要暂停？

It's one of the hardest things to come back from, and it's something that can creep in because we don't really recognize it until it can be too late. And so when it comes to diagnosing ourselves, I think it's just really helpful to think about, what am I experiencing right now? Am I feeling emotionally exhausted? Is my tank empty? Do I need a break?

或是需要重新调整与工作的关系使其更可持续？我是否正经历自我效能缺失？手头任务是否超出掌控范围？我无法达成预期目标，是否需要提升技能来实现理想工作状态？又或者——我是否已陷入愤世嫉俗？

Or perhaps, do I need to renegotiate a different relationship to my work so that it's more sustainable? Am I experiencing a lack of self efficacy? Are the tasks that I'm working on not controllable enough for me? I can't really accomplish the outcomes that I want. Do I need to upskill so that I can actually do the work that I want to be doing, or am I feeling cynical?

我是否不再相信自己正在努力达成的目标？这需要完全不同的休整方式和应对策略。

Do I no longer believe in what it is that I'm trying to accomplish here? That's a very different kind of break and a very different way of addressing it. So

虽然追求并保持激情对我们有益，但并非人人都有能力做到。这是一位名叫南希的听众发给我们的信息。

it's one thing to say that pursuing and maintaining our passions is helpful to us, but not everyone might have the ability to do that. Here's a message we received from a listener named Nancy.

关于简的研究，我有一个问题。我在想，他是否观察到一个人现有的财务资源以及未来收入潜力的预期变化，如何影响他们是否决定开启人生新篇章。就我个人而言，在我职业生涯的前二十五年，我主要在银行和金融领域工作，我们建立了坚实的财务基础并为退休做好了储蓄。如果没有这种财务保障，我不确定自己是否会在48岁时选择攻读研究生，成为一名治疗师——我得告诉你，这个职业的收入要低得多。谢谢。

I have a question concerning Jan's research. I was wondering if he saw any patterns around how a person's existing financial resources as well as expected changes in future earning potential, might have had an impact on a decision whether or not to pursue a next chapter. For myself, for the first twenty five years of my professional life, I worked primarily in banking and finance and we were able to establish a strong financial foundation and save well for retirement. Without this financial security, I am not sure that I would have pursued my next chapter of going to graduate school at the age of 48 to work as a therapist, which I will tell you is a much lower paying profession. Thank you.

那么简，研究关于热情与收入之间的相关性是怎么说的？两者之间存在联系吗？

So Jan, what does the research say about the correlation between passion and income? Is there a link there?

我很高兴南希提到了这一点。这也是我妻子在我们节目后提出的主要批评，而我当时没有谈到社会经济因素。事实是，许多允许人们追求激情的职业收入并不高。对吧？比如，典型的例子，艺术家、厨师、音乐家，这些职业很多都收入微薄。

I'm so glad Nancy brought that up. It was the main criticism that my wife had after our episode as well, and I didn't talk about the socioeconomic component. The truth is that many professions that allow someone to pursue their passion do not pay well. Right? Like, if we think about the canonical example, the artists, the chefs, the musicians, a lot of these professions don't pay well.

还有一些证据似乎表明，人们可能会因为他们的热情而被剥削，意思是如果你问某人，哦，办公室里还有这个额外的任务需要完成，你更可能把这个任务交给那个充满热情的人，因为你觉得，哦，他们会免费做这个。还有研究表明，当人们对某事非常在意时，他们在薪资谈判中不太愿意提及钱的问题，因为他们担心如果提到钱，别人可能会怀疑他们对此事的在乎程度。所以所有这些似乎表明，将金钱因素引入其中可能非常具有挑战性。然而，更广泛的证据尚无定论。当你查看大规模的相关性研究时，追求自己深具热情的工作与他们的薪资之间的关系有时是平的。

There's some evidence also that seems to suggest that people can be exploited for their passion, meaning that if you ask somebody, oh, there's this additional task that needs to be done at the office, who do you give that task to that you're more likely to give that to the passionate person because you think, oh, they'll do it for free. And there's also research showing that when people care very deeply about something, that they are less likely to want to bring up money in a salary negotiation because they worry that if they bring up money, other people might doubt how deeply they care about that. So all these things seem to suggest it can be really challenging to bring money into the mix. The broader evidence, however, is inconclusive. When you look at broad, large scale correlational studies, the relationship between people who pursue work that they're deeply passionate about and their salary is sometimes flat.

有时是正相关，有时是负相关。Yuna Cho和Winnie Jung的一篇论文提出，这种关系可能实际上是正相关的原因之一是，其他人对那些对自己所做之事充满热情的人反应非常积极。我之前提到过研究表明人们想要剥削那些充满热情的人，但同时，我也应该提到，有很多研究表明，当我们看到有人对自己所做的事情真正充满热情时，我们也会更加钦佩他们。我们更愿意帮助和支持他们。所以这里有一个潜在的难题，这实际上意味着什么，看起来又是什么样子？

It's sometimes positive, sometimes negative. There's one paper by Yuna Cho and Winnie Jung who suggest that one of the reasons why the relationship might actually be positive is that other people respond so positively to people who are passionate for what they're doing. I mentioned earlier research showing that people want to exploit others who are passionate, but in the same breath, I should mention that there's a lot of work that has shown that when we see someone who's really passionate for what they do, we also admire them more. We want to help and support them more. So there's this underlying conundrum, what does it actually mean and look like?

我还想对南希补充一点，我非常高兴，南希，你在银行业工作了二十五年后又回到了研究生院。更多时候，我认为这是一个非常罕见的故事，原因如下。人们常常低估了自己未来会发生多大的变化。Daniel Gilbert和其他人做了一项非常出色的研究，他们称之为历史终结的错觉。我们认为自己是当前最完整的版本，并且我们在过去的变化比未来会更多。

There is one more thing I wanna add to Nancy, and I'm really glad, Nancy, that you went back to grad school after twenty five years of banking. More often than not, I think that's a very rare story for the following reason. People often underestimate how much they change in the future. There's this really wonderful work by Daniel Gilbert and others, and they call it the end of history illusion. We think that we are the most complete version of ourselves at this point in time and that we have changed more in the past than we will change in the future.

然而，当你查看实际数据时，这并不是真的。实际上，我们未来的变化比我们想象的要大得多。所以我有很多学生来到我的办公室，他们报告的情况和南希告诉我的一模一样。我25岁，我有学生贷款。

Whereas when you look at the actual data, that's not true. We actually change a lot more in the future than we might think. And so I have a lot of students who come to my office and who report the very same thing that Nancy was telling me. I'm 25 years old. I have student debt.

我需要进入金融、咨询行业。我需要赚钱，需要为退休储蓄。我非常理解这些观点，我会说，我明白你有这些现实约束，这很合理。但学生们紧接着就会补充道：等到我四五十岁或六十多岁时，我就会改变，那时再去追求真正有意义的工作。

I need to go into finance, consulting. I need to make money. I need to save for retirement, and I'm very sympathetic to those arguments, and I say, I understand you have those constraints. That makes a lot of sense. But the students then are very quick to add, and later on, when I'm in when I'm in my forties, in my fifties, or sixties, then I'm gonna change, and then I'm gonna pursue work that's really meaningful to me.

他们低估的是，当真正步入四五十岁或六十岁时，他们的本质已经改变。过去二三十年职业生涯中围绕在他们身边的人，与当年那个时刻的自己早已截然不同。他们的价值观会因此受到影响，生活方式也已改变。此时想要回头，实际上会变得异常艰难。

What they underestimate is that when they are in their forties, fifties, or sixties, who they are has fundamentally changed. The people that they have surrounded themselves with for the last twenty, thirty years of their career have will be very different to who they were perhaps at that moment in time. Their values will be impacted by that. Their lifestyle has changed. And then switching back actually becomes a lot more difficult and challenging.

我与许多五六十岁的校友交谈时，他们常说：'唉，记得二十多岁时我曾想追求热爱的事业，却推迟了。'如今他们告诉我：'真希望当初能早点开始。即使无法通过工作实现，也希望能持续培养那种感知力，探索尝试各种方法。这样当终于有时间专注于此的时候，就知道该做什么以及如何去做。'

So many of the conversations I've had with alums who are in their fifties and sixties who are telling me, ugh, I remember when I was in my twenties, and I wanted to pursue what I was passionate about, and I put it off. What they tell me now is I wish I had started earlier. I wish I had found a way even if I couldn't do it in my work, I wish I had found a way to continue developing that sense, to find ways to experiment and explore so that when I had finally had the time to actually make that the main attention that I could focus on, that I knew what to do and how to do it.

稍后回来，简将回答关于培养激情的实际步骤的听众提问。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, Jan answers your questions about practical steps we can take to nurture our passions. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

有份支付账单的工作固然好，但更好的工作是能激发你的热情、带来挑战、推动创新与卓越的事业。这种'理想职业应与激情完美契合'的观念在美国文化中非常普遍。无论好坏，我们多数人都希望工作不仅仅是维持生计，更希望能反映自我价值。

Having a job that pays the bills is great. But even better is doing work that builds on your passions, one that challenges you, that drives you to innovate and excel. This message that the ideal career is one where our work and our passions are neatly aligned is widespread in American culture. For better or for worse, many of us want our work to do more than just keep a roof over our heads. We want it to reflect who we are.

本期《听众问答》的嘉宾是哈佛商学院行为科学家简·亚希莫维奇。简，你的研究似乎常从抽离的角度重新审视激情追求。你提到其中一个障碍在于我们将激情道德化了，这是什么意思？

Our guest for today's edition of Your Questions Answered is Jan Yahimovich, a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. Jan, a lot of your work seems to be about stepping back from the pursuit of passion to see it more clearly and accurately. You say that one obstacle to doing this lies in the way that we have moralized passion. What do you mean by that?

我认为我们把追求激情抬到了过高的道德高度——追求激情就是好人，反之则是道德败坏者。这种期待是错误的，往好了说毫无助益，往坏了说反而给追求激情的人制造了更多障碍。让我解释原因。

I think that we have elevated the pursuit of passion to such a high moral level where we are a good person for pursuing our passion, and vice versa, we're seen as a morally bad person if we don't pursue our passion. And I think that that is a wrong expectation to have. At best, I think it's unhelpful. And at worst, I think it actively makes the pursuit of passion more challenging for the people who enter that. Let me explain why.

我认为，当我们告诉人们应该追求激情时，这变成了一种强制和压力来源，使人们难以真正探索他们想要如何追求激情，何时可能想探索激情，并且这隐含地贬低了其他在生活中寻找意义的方式。艾米·维兹涅夫斯基对‘意义’和‘有意义’做出了非常精彩的区分。工作可以具有意义，而其本身未必是有意义的。我可以认为我的工作在我的生活中扮演着非常重要的角色。它可以赋予我做其他事情的能力。

I think that when we tell people you should pursue your passion, it becomes an imperative and a source of pressure that can make it difficult for people to actually explore how they wanna go about pursuing their passion, when they might want to explore their passion, and it implicitly denigrates other ways of finding meaning in their life. Amy Vzhevsnevsky has this really wonderful distinction between meaning and meaningful. Work can have a meaning without in and of itself being meaningful. I can think of my work as having a really important role in my life. It can empower me to do other things.

它可能让我能够养家糊口。但就其本身而言，那份工作可能并不一定是有意义的。在我看来，我们需要小心，不要贬低那些发现工作有意义但本身并不觉得工作有意义的人。因为现实是，对许多人来说，追求有意义的工作是一种奢侈，或者他们觉得在那个时候无法做到的事情。我认为作为一个社会，我们需要接受这是一个完全可以接受的正当理由，去做我们正在做的事情。

It might allow me to support my family. But in and of itself, that work might not necessarily be meaningful. And we need to be careful, in my mind, not to denigrate people who find that their work has meaning, but who in and of itself do not find their work to be meaningful. Because the reality is that for many people, pursuing work that is meaningful is a luxury or something that they feel like they are not able to do at that point in time. And I think we as a society need to embrace that that is a perfectly great justification to do what it is that we're doing.

我认为，通过强调对某些人来说，在他们生活的某些阶段，专注于那些本身并非他们热衷但可能赋予他们在以后生活中追求激情或在工作之外追求激情的能力的工作，实际上可能更有意义，我们会做得更好。在我看来，这是一种同样高尚的方式，去做我们深切关心的事情。

I think we would do better by highlighting that for some people, given their life circumstances at some time points, it might actually be more meaningful if they focused on work that isn't in and of itself something that they're passionate about, but that might empower them either to pursue their passion later on in life or to pursue their passion outside of work, which is an equally noble or in my mind, least, an equally noble way of doing something that we deeply care about.

因此，将激情道德化的另一个不幸后果是，充满激情的人有时会不愿意放弃他们的激情，即使他们应该放弃，因为他们害怕别人会看不起他们。我想播放一段西蒙·斯塔尔佐夫的录音，他放弃了传统的新闻事业，成为一名演讲者和顾问。这是他在播客中描述他对这个决定的感受。

So one other unfortunate consequence of moralizing passion is that passionate people can sometimes be reluctant to give up their passions, even when they should, because they're afraid that others will think less of them. I want to play you a clip of a man named Simone Stalzov who left a traditional career in journalism to become a speaker and a consultant. Here he is on a podcast describing how he felt about that decision.

我感到内疚。我觉得我某种程度上是在放弃一种使命，你知道，民主在黑暗中消亡。而我却在关掉房间里的一盏灯？我的同事和同事们会原谅我吗？我还能再发表文章吗？

I felt guilty. I felt that I was sort of abandoning a calling and, you know, democracy dies in darkness. And what am I doing turning off one more light in the room? And will my colleagues and my coworkers ever forgive me. Will I ever be able to publish ever again?

约翰，你会说这是将激情道德化最终伤害那些决定在生活中走不同道路的人的另一种方式吗？

John, would you say this is another way in which moralizing passions ends up hurting people who decide to take a different route in their lives?

绝对是的。我认为部分挑战在于，当我们以那种方式将激情道德化时，我们也会担心如果我们放弃或停止追求某种激情，别人会怎么看待我们。这意味着，如果我是一个追求激情的好人，那么现在我放弃那件事，我一定是哪里出了问题？我一定在道德上有什么根本性的错误。我选择放弃我所热衷的事情，我一定是个坏人，至少这是人们自己持有的信念。

Absolutely. I think part of the challenge is that when we moralize passion in that way, we also worry about how other people might think of us if we were to quit or give up on one passion pursuit. The implication being, if I am a good person for pursuing a passion, then what must be wrong with me that I'm now giving up on that thing? There must be something inherently morally wrong with me. I must be a bad person for choosing to give up on what it is that I'm passionate about, or at least that's the belief that people themselves have.

我们与扎克·巴里和布莱恩·卢卡斯合作的研究实际发现，人们普遍理解有时需要放弃一项热情以追求另一项，这正是生活的常态——你并未完全放弃对热情的追寻。但从追求热情者的视角来看，他们可能极度担忧：别人会因为我放弃那份热情而轻视我吗？研究发现，这种担忧会让人固守最初充满热情或工作环境曾非常适合的岗位，即便由于种种原因已不再契合——他们可能正面临维持热情的困境，或正承受长期有害的负面影响。但出于对他人评价的过度忧虑，他们仍选择坚持。

What we actually find in the research, together with Zach Barry and Brian Lucas, is that other people understand that sometimes you need to give up on one passion in order to pursue another, that that's just what life is like, that you don't give up on passion pursuit altogether. But from that person's perspective who's pursuing a passion, they might really worry, are other people going to think of me as a lesser person because I've given up on that passion? And we find that that worry can keep people in jobs that they perhaps initially were really passionate about or where the working conditions perhaps initially were a really good fit, but where, for whatever reason, it's no longer a fit, where they're now having troubles and challenges maintaining that passion or they're incurring negative outcomes that can harm them in the long run. But they keep on persevering because they worry so much about what other people will say if they were to give up.

此前我们收到听众里姆的反馈，她是位人类学家。她从文化视角聆听了你关于热情的研究。里姆生于德国，但在英国工作生活了十年，她观察到两种文化背景下的显著差异。以下是她的分享。

One of the listeners we heard from earlier, Reem, is an anthropologist. So she listened to your work about passion from a cultural perspective. Reem was born in Germany but has lived and worked in The UK for a decade, and she sees major differences between the two cultural contexts. Here she is.

观察这种表达差异非常有趣——在我成长的德国与过去十年生活的英国，人们谈论事物的方式截然不同。英国人善于自嘲，敢于展现脆弱与坦诚。当有人说'我工作非常努力，但过程异常艰辛——我脱发、患上皮肤病、失去所有朋友'时，反而显得更真实。而在德国，人们更倾向于营造一种非完美主义但近乎'这对我来说轻而易举'的叙事。

It's really interesting to see how we communicate that in Germany, sort of where I grew up, and I've been living in The UK for for the past ten years. It's really different how we talk about, different things in The UK. People are self deprecating and really vulnerable and really open. It seems more real when people say well I work really hard but at the same time it was so hard and it was just I lost my hair and I developed a skin condition and lost all my friends. And in Germany there is almost that almost strive for like not perfectionism, but sort of like, oh, it became very easy to me.

我天生聪慧，一切都很轻松——是的，这种谈论热情的不同方式让我觉得非常有意思。

I'm just naturally very smart. It's very it was kind of very easy and how yeah, I just found it really interesting thinking about the sort of different nature of how we talk about passion.

云，里姆的描述听起来像'鸭子综合征'：有些人想让你知道他们多努力，另一些人则竭力隐藏。就像水面优雅滑行的鸭子，水下却在拼命划水。你在德国长大，从个人经历和研究来看，不同文化中对热情的认知差异是什么？

So, Yun, what Reem is describing here sounds like the duck syndrome. Some people want you to know how hard they're working, while others want to conceal how hard they're working. They're like ducks placidly gliding along the surface of the water, but underwater they are furiously paddling. I know you grew up in Germany. What have you found in terms of differences in passion across cultures, both in your own life and in your research?

这是个很好的问题。我认为里姆关注的是人们如何谈论工作与热情。她揭示的核心在于：在不同文化背景下，什么是可隐藏的、什么是该展现的各有不同。在英国，适度自嘲更易被接受甚至期待，这种表达方式既适用于谈论工作，也适合用于自我描述——披露弱点或挑战能使叙事更立体。

Yeah. That's a great question. And it sounds to me like what Reem is paying attention to here is how people talk about their work and how they talk about what they're passionate about. I think what I really appreciate about what Rima is highlighting here is that what is okay to conceal and what is important to reveal can vary from one cultural context to the next. So in The UK, it is more acceptable and perhaps even expected to be a little more self deprecating, and that is a more acceptable way to talk about one's work and perhaps even a more acceptable way to talk about oneself, to disclose some weaknesses or some challenges to round out one's narrative.

在那个语境下，过度自我膨胀会显得傲慢。而根据里姆的描述，德国人更不愿暴露遇到的困难与挑战，反而倾向于构建'天才叙事'或'自然天赋叙事'——'这对我很容易''我始终对此充满热情''毫无挣扎可言'。

You don't want to be too full of yourself and come across as perhaps too arrogant in that context. Whereas in Germany, the way that Rima's describing it, people are more hesitant in disclosing some weaknesses and challenges that they've experienced. And instead, it sounds to me like that's a more like a a genius narrative or, like, a naturalness narrative, meaning that this comes very easy to me. I've been passionate about this all along. There is no struggle here.

一切都很好，这是一种非常不同的思考方式，关于我想透露多少自己以及我担心别人会怎么想。因此，在我们思考如何表达我们的热情时，这可能会非常具有挑战性。我个人发现，当我在德国表达我的热情时，我必须更加保留一些。我必须更加深思熟虑，不能那么激烈地挥手，不能像在英语中那样大声和快速地说话，因为那不是其他人期望热情应该被表达的方式。

Everything is great, which is a very different way of thinking about how much of myself I want to disclose and what I am worried about other people might think. And so that can be really challenging in how we think about how we communicate our passion. What I have found personally is that when I express my passion, I have to be a little bit more reserved in Germany. I have to be a bit more thoughtful that I cannot wave my hands as intensely. I cannot speak quite as loudly and quite as quickly in German because that is not how other people expect passion should be expressed.

相反，在德国文化背景下，热情似乎更多地表现为一种确定性的专注，非常清晰和有条理，并且能够清晰地表达你的愿景。而在美国，似乎没有热情是过分的。我可以挥手，我可以完全疯狂。人们可能会说，看看这个人。

And instead, it seems like passion in a German cultural context is more about deterministic focus, being really clear and articulate, and having a vision that you can articulate. Versus in The US, it sounds like there is no passion that can be too much. I can wave my hands. I can go absolutely nuts and crazy. And people might say, look at look at this person.

就像，他们对他们所做的事情如此热情。我认为Reem提到的还有第二个方面我想强调，那就是我们重视热情的程度，或者我们相信热情是人们应该追求的东西的程度。Paulo Keefe和Hazel Rose Marcus做了一些研究，他们在世界各地调查了不同国家的人。也许并不奇怪，这两篇论文发现，在那些不那么个人主义的文化中，即更少关注你自己想要实现什么，更多关注对群体有益的事情，热情仍然重要，但作为一个重要的职业目标，它的重要性较低。相反，其他职业目标更加突出，比如能够支持你的家庭，能够为你的社区做出贡献等等。

Like, they're so passionate about what they're doing. I think there's a second component to what Reem was mentioning that I wanted to highlight, and that's the extent to which we value passion or the extent to which we believe that passion is something that people should pursue. There's some work that Paulo Keefe has done and Hazel Rose Marcus have done where they survey people across different countries around the world. And perhaps unsurprisingly, what those two papers find is that in cultures that are less individualistic, so where it's less about what you yourself want to accomplish and more about what is beneficial for the group, that in those cultures, passion still matters, but it matters less as an important career goal. Instead, other career goals take higher prominence, being able to support your family, being able to contribute to your community, and so on.

而在那些更加个人主义的文化中，美国在这方面排名非常高，英国也是，还有许多其他西方国家，你会发现热情更多地浮现在顶部，成为你职业中最重要的考虑因素之一。

Whereas in cultures that are more individualistic and The US ranks really highly there, so does The UK, and many other Western countries, you see that passion floats a lot more to the top as one of the most important things to consider in your career.

我们收到了很多听众关于随着退休临近转向新热情的问题。这是来自听众Hank的一条消息。

We got a lot of questions from listeners about transitioning to new passions as retirement approaches. Here's one message from listener Hank.

随着我接近退休年龄，我刚满70岁，我对工作的热情有所下降。我想这是很自然的事情。但是，当一个人接近退休时，对热情减弱该怎么办？我希望在我的工作中保持相关性。我非常相关，我想可以这么说。

As I near retirement age, I just turned 70, my passion for my work is going down somewhat. I suppose it's a natural thing. But what does one do about diminishing passion as one reaches retirement? I wanna stay relevant in my work. I am very much relevant, suppose I could say.

以及一个人如何从一个热情转向另一个？非常感谢。

And how does one transition from one passion to another? Thanks very much.

所以，简，即使我们整个职业生涯都保持着热情，大多数人最终还是会逐渐减少或停止追求那份热情。退休后的热情会是什么样子呢？

So, Jan, even if we maintain a passion throughout our whole career, most of us will eventually scale back or stop pursuing that passion at some point. What does passion look like beyond retirement?

我认为这是个很好的问题，非常感谢汉克提出这一点。我可以向汉克保证，这是一种非常普遍的现象。特蕾莎·阿马比尔和她的同事们曾就此写过一本书，部分原因在于他们作为学者退休后，意识到不再从事对自己真正有意义的事情是多么困难。因此，我认为汉克正在做的事情本身就非常有帮助，即开始思考退休后要做什么。特蕾莎·阿马比尔等人在书中发现，许多人对退休生活的规划不足。

Think that's a great question, and I'm really grateful to Hank for bringing that up. I can assure Hank that is a very common narrative. Teresa Amabile and some of her colleagues, have written a book about that, in part because they are academics who themselves retired and then realized how difficult it is to retire and no longer do what it is that is really meaningful to you. So I think that what Henk is doing in and of itself, I think, is really helpful, which is to starting to think about what will I do after retirement. What Teresa Amagli and others find in their book is that a lot of people underplan what retirement will look like.

退休常被视为终极目标——‘这就是我要退休摆脱的工作’。但相反，他们以一种我认为非常有帮助的方式重新定义：‘你要退休去做什么？’

Retirement is often seen as the end goal. This is what I'm retiring from. You know, I'm no longer doing work. And instead, they reframe it in a way that I think is really helpful. What are you retiring to?

不要将退休视为旅程的终点，而只是途中的一个站点，思考下一个目的地是哪里？在这个过程中，你可以开始考虑，即使仍在工作，我需要做哪些准备。也许这意味着我需要探索更多退休后可能想做的事，或者需要更关注自我，探索我的身份——我是谁？

Not seeing retirement as something that is the end of a journey, but it's just a stop along the journey, and what's the next destination that you're going to go to? And then in that process, you can start thinking about what are the things even while I'm still working that I might want to do to prepare myself. Perhaps that means I need to explore more of the things that I might wanna do after retirement. Perhaps that means that I need to engage in a little bit of a self focus, exploring my identity. Who am I?

我想从生活中得到什么？有什么是我一直想完成的？甚至可以尝试涉足不同领域，试探这些是否真的适合我？我能想象自己从事这些吗？

What do I want out of life? What is something that I've always wanted to accomplish? And perhaps even experimenting, dipping my toes in a number of different things. Is this really something feasible for me? Is this something that I could see myself doing?

这些事情是否能在现有居住地实现？还是需要完全改变生活方式？但更有意识和深思熟虑地规划，我认为非常关键。我脑海中一个很好的类比是运动员，他们往往在很年轻时退役。

Is this something that I can do while I still live where I live? Is it available where I am, or would it require a very different way of living? But being more thoughtful and intentional, I think, is really helpful. One of the a great comparison, at least in my mind, are athletes. Athletes retire when they're very young.

许多运动员三十多岁就退役了，因此退休带来的冲击我们可以更长期地观察。最近有个关于安德鲁·拉克的故事让我印象深刻，他曾是印第安纳波利斯小马队的四分卫，六年后退役——我记得他退役时29或30岁，对橄榄球员来说相当年轻。他在后续的采访中提到，自己陷入了深刻的意义危机，完全没准备好接下来要做什么。

Many athletes retire when they're in their thirties, and so retirement is a shock that we can observe and then actually look at for a lot longer time periods. And there's this recent story that I love by Andrew Luck, who was a quarterback for the Indianapolis Colts for six years, retired. I think he was 29 or 30 when he retired, which is quite young for a football player. And in the months and years that followed or the way that he talks about it now, fell into a deep crisis of meaning. He was completely unprepared for what he wanted to do next.

那段日子确实非常艰难，很大程度上是因为他在自我质疑：如果我不再是四分卫，那我究竟是谁？这种思考促使他开始探索自己真正被什么吸引，还能做些什么，这为他打开了新的大门。最终，他重返研究生院，如今我相信他已成为斯坦福橄榄球项目的总经理。虽然角色与从前截然不同，但仍与他深爱的橄榄球运动保持着某种联系。

They were really difficult days, and in in large parts because he asked himself, if I'm not a quarterback, then who am I? And then to start thinking about what am I drawn to, what else could I do, that can that really opened the door for him. He now ultimately, he went back to grad school. He's now, I believe, the general manager of the Stanford football program. So a very different role than he had before, but still somewhat related to the sport of football that he cared very deeply about.

但我觉得可以借此契机思考：如果我们更主动地规划退休后的生活，现在就尝试各种可能性，等到真正退休时，我们就有明确的目标可以过渡，并持续进行新的探索。

But I think using that as an excuse to say, what if we thought more intentionally about what we might want to do after retirement and started experimenting now before we actually make that transition so that when retirement happens, we have something that we can retire to, and we can start experimenting with.

稍后回来时，听众们将分享他们关于如何长期保持热情的观点和故事。您正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, listeners share their ideas and stories about how to maintain a passion over the long haul. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

我们的文化中充斥着追梦者最终大获成功的故事：银行账户只剩5美元时获得成名角色的演员，在车库埋头多年终于灵光乍现的发明家，作品被拒数十次后终于登上畅销榜的作家。而那些逐渐消逝或以失败告终的热情故事却鲜少被讲述。

We are surrounded in our culture by stories of people who pursued their passions and became wildly successful. The actor who was down to the last $5 in his bank account when he scored the role that made him a star. The inventor who tinkered for years in his garage before finally having a eureka moment. The writer whose work was rejected dozens of times before she finally broke through and made it to the bestseller lists. It's much more rare to hear tales of passion that peter out or end in failure.

因此当我们为梦想挣扎时，总会自我怀疑：我到底怎么了？为什么不能像那些成功人士一样坚持到底？在今天的《你问我答》特别节目中，我们将与行为科学家扬·亚希莫维奇探讨热情为何会消退以及应对之策。扬，我们来聊聊保持热情的具体策略吧。

And so when we struggle to fulfill our dreams, we wonder, what's wrong with me? Why can't I stay the course and succeed like all these other people? Today, in the latest edition of our segment, Your Questions Answered, we're talking with behavioral scientist Jan Yahimovich about how our passions fade over time and what we can do about it. Jan, let's talk about strategies we can employ to keep our passions alive. Alive.

何不试着与颤抖共舞？2013年的TED演讲中，菲尔分享了接下来的转变。

We heard at the top of the show about the artist Phil Hansen and how he suffered nerve damage that caused him to fall out of love with his art. A few years later, Phil visited a neurologist about his problem. The neurologist looked at him and said, why don't you just embrace the shake? Phil shared what happened next in a TED Talk in 2013.

于是我照做了。回家拿起铅笔，任由双手颤抖作画。虽然这些涂鸦并非我理想的艺术形式，但感觉棒极了。更重要的是，当我接纳颤抖后，我发现自己依然能创作艺术。

So I did. I went home, I grabbed a pencil, and I just started letting my hands shake and shake. I was making all these scribble pictures. And even though it wasn't the kind of art that I was ultimately passionate about, it felt great. And more importantly, once I embraced the shake, I realized I could still make art.

我不得不另辟蹊径，来实现我想要的创作。

I just had to find a different approach to making the art that I wanted.

那么简，菲尔后来通过接受手抖的现实，用波浪线替代小圆点，创作了大量美丽作品。对于我们如何回应医生的建议，菲尔的经历是否蕴含着更深层的启示？

So Jan, Phil went on to create lots of beautiful art by embracing the shake and using squiggly lines instead of tiny dots. Is there a deeper lesson here for the rest of us in how Phil responded to his doctor's advice?

毫无疑问。我钟爱菲尔·汉森的故事，因为它向我们揭示：我们常对追求热忱的方式抱持狭隘认知，却忽视了实现理想的多元路径。对菲尔而言，点彩画是他定义的梦想。当这条路受阻时，他陷入绝望深渊，只因他认定这是唯一目标。

Absolutely. I love Phil Hansen's story because to me, it exemplifies that we often have very narrow beliefs about how we want to go about pursuing our passion and that we're not attentive enough to the many different ways in which we could actually pursue our passion. So for Phil, he wanted to make pointillism art. That was what he had defined for himself as being his dream. And so when it didn't work out for him, he fell into a deep, dark hole because he said, this is the goal that I had.

他原以为达成目标必须沿此特定路径，当路径断绝，目标便遥不可及。而神经科医生的提醒宛如醍醐灌顶：'等等，你依然可以创作艺术啊，何不换种方式试试？'

This is the path that it would require for me to reach this goal. That path is no longer available for me, and therefore, I cannot reach this goal. When his neurologist said, wait. But you can still you can still make art. Like, why don't you just do it but in a different way?

菲尔开始实验性探索后领悟：或许存在其他可能性，或许会导向不同目标，但这个新目标同样充满意义，同样能点燃激情。我认为他经历的第一步是放下固有自我认知，第二步则是拥抱未知：'我还能做些什么？'

What Phil started experimenting with was to realize maybe there are other things that I could do, and maybe it it'll take me to a different goal, but perhaps that goal is still meaningful to me. Perhaps that is still something that I could be passionate about. So I think the initial step here that he talks about is that he had to let go of the conceptions that he had about himself. The second step was to then embrace, okay. What else could I do?

'在结果不确定的情况下，我还能追求什么？即便不知最终方向。'我的理解是保持实验心态，通过这种方式来培育你的热爱。菲尔似乎在探索他如此痴迷艺术的深层原因，以及想通过艺术达成的本质。但更广泛地说，这凸显了我们常执着于结果——'我要成为X，我要完成Y'——与探索过程的区别。

What other things can I pursue even with an uncertain outcome? Like, I don't know what I'm ultimately working towards. And the way that I think about this is to be open to experimenting and, in this way, developing what it is that you are passionate about. It sounds to me like what Phil is doing is finding out why he cares about art so much, what it is that, through art, he wants to accomplish. But I think more broadly, it highlights this distinction between the outcome that I think we become very fixated on.

'这是我将要发展和实验的方式，通过这个过程来认识自我、发现所爱。'它或许最终会引领我走向不同的旅程、不同的终点，但同样可能成为让我倾注热情的意义所在。

I want to become x person. I want to do y thing versus the process. Here is how I'm going to go about developing and experimenting. This is a way in which I'm going to figure out who I am and what I care about, and it might ultimately lead me toward a different journey, toward a different end, but perhaps that can also be something that I could be meaning that that I could be passionate about.

我们收到了一些听众的个人经历分享，讲述他们如何长期保持热情。以下是来自伦纳德的故事。

We received some personal accounts from listeners about how they've been able to maintain their passion over time. Here's one from Leonard.

我在海军退役并因妻子因乳腺癌去世后开始接触表演。最初是出于治疗目的，但后来对此产生了极大热情。我在洛杉矶待了几年，有幸获得几个小角色，还参演了一部克林特·伊斯特伍德的电影。但我意识到，要保持这份热情，对我来说有效的方法是持续学习、参与培训，并保持对领域前沿的求知欲。虽然人们很少认为表演艺术存在前沿，但实际上它确实有。

I got into acting after a career in the Navy and having lost my wife to breast cancer. I got into acting for therapeutic reasons primarily, but developed quite a passion for it. I was in LA for a couple of years and actually got a couple of small roles and had one film with Clint Eastwood I was fortunate enough to be in. But what I've realized is that in order to pursue the passion, in order to keep it sustained, what works for me is to study, is to continue to be involved in training, and to continue to try to learn and have an intellectual curiosity about what the sense of the cutting edge of the field really is. You don't really think about acting as having a cutting edge very much, but in fact, it very much has one.

我认为，即便在地方层面，尝试理解、追寻并认识到这一点，对于维持热情的能力都至关重要。

And trying to understand that and pursue that and recognize that, even at the local level, I think, is tremendous for having the ability to sustain your passion.

简，你对伦纳德的故事以及他认为好奇心是保持热情关键的观点怎么看？

Jan, what do you make of Leonard's story and his assertion that curiosity is a key to keeping passion alive?

我非常喜欢这个故事，伦纳德，感谢分享。关键在于他以开放心态接触表演——可能这会成为我的热情所在。这种处世态度很有帮助。马特·布鲁姆和同事们记录了人们从事深度有意义工作时的叙事方式，这些故事远比我们想象的更曲折。

I I love that story, Leonard, and thank you for sharing that. I think what's what's what's important is to say that he approached it with a sense of open mindedness. Perhaps this could be something that that I'm passionate about. And I think having that approach toward the world is really helpful. Matt Blum and colleagues have charted the narratives that people tell when they are deeply in when they're engaged in deeply meaningful work, and the narratives are not as straightforward as we often like them to be.

我们总希望热情人士的故事是直线式的：我热爱音乐→钻研三十年→成为著名音乐家，毫无挫折。这种令人安心的简单叙事符合我们的期待。

We want stories of passionate people to be a to b. I was really passionate about music, so I studied music for thirty years, and now I'm a really famous musician. No challenge or strife, period. That's the story that we like hearing. I think it provides us with a sense of comfort that, like, this is an easy narrative.

现实中，追求深度有意义工作的人生轨迹往往迂回曲折：尝试这个→遭遇挫折→学习那个→取得突破。这才是更常态的人生历程，尤其在追求有意义的事业时。伦纳德提到的另一点很启发：区分'追求热情的方式'与'热情对象'很重要，在职业生涯中我们可以同步发展这两者。

When in reality, the stories of people who pursue deeply meaningful work is a lot more zig zaggy. I did this, then I did that, then I learned about this, then this bad thing happened, or this setback occurred, and then I had this success. And that's a much more normal way of living one's life, particularly a meaningful career. I think the other thing that that Leonard mentioned that I think is really helpful is that it can be helpful to differentiate how we pursue our passion and what we are passionate about, and that over the course of our career, we can develop both. We can both develop how we pursue our passion.

或许我对某件事充满热情，但我会尝试多种不同的方式去追求它，或者我可以追寻我真正热爱的事物。这种热情可能会变化——今天是一种激情，明天可能是另一种。但以好奇心和成长型思维去探索，根据研究显示，这种方式确实大有裨益。

Maybe I'm passionate about one thing, but I'm gonna try very many different ways of pursuing that thing, and or I can pursue what it is that I'm passionate about. Maybe that can change. Maybe I have one passion, then another passion, then another passion. But I think approaching it with this sense of curiosity and a developmental mindset, at least based on the research, seems really helpful.

另一位听众林恩提出了建议：我在求职间隙做了个练习——将纸张分成三栏。左栏列出所有工作经历（从五年级当保姆开始），中栏记录每份工作中热爱的部分，右栏则写下厌恶之处。

Another suggestion comes from a listener named Lynn. She writes, when I was in between jobs, I took an exercise where I took a piece of paper and divided it into three columns. In the left column, I put all of the jobs I'd ever held, starting with fifth grade babysitting. In the middle column, I put all of the things I loved about each of these jobs. And in the far right column, I put all of the things I despised about each one.

这个练习让我惊人地发现：我热爱指导、咨询、 mentoring 和赋能他人（尤其是女性），而厌恶的是上司的存在——这意味着我需要找份自己能当家做主的工作。当时我的理财顾问说：‘林恩，过去十年你为我引荐客户的成绩斐然，你该自己从事这行。’于是我便开启了理财顾问生涯，这无疑成为了我人生中最振奋人心且收获丰厚的职业。

It was a great discovery for me to learn that I love coaching, counseling, mentoring, and empowering people, particularly women. What I hated were the bosses, meaning I really needed to find a job where I would be the boss. At the time, I was working with my financial advisor, and she said, Lynne, you've done such a great job of bringing me clients over the last ten years. You should do this job yourself. And so began my career as a financial advisor, which has been by far and away the most exhilarating and rewarding career of my life.

是否存在类似的实操步骤或练习，能帮助人们找到下一个激情所在？

Are there similar practical steps or exercises people can do to help them find their next passion?

我非常欣赏林恩这种‘标注热爱事项’的方式，更重要的是她同时标出了‘红色警报’——那些绝不想要的东西。我们常忽视这些警示信号，因此这个练习很有价值。根据我的研究积累，还有几个方法或许能帮上忙。

I really like this way that Lynn did it by highlighting, here's the things I love. And importantly, here are the red flags. Here's the things that I don't want. I think we often neglect those red flags, and so I really like that that exercise. I think there are a couple of things that I have found can be helpful, and it's not just things that that I have developed.

这些方法源自Akira Chabram等学者对休业期人群的研究。关键是要将休业期不仅视为恢复阶段，更是自我发现的契机，并着重实践环节——这正是我们常低估的部分。多数人乐于像林恩那样自我探索，但更重要的是后续的实践验证：根据所得信息采取行动会怎样？能获得何种反馈？

This is trying on a lot of different research that that people have done that I'm really grateful for that I can draw these tips on. I think one of the ways to think about this, and this is based on research by Akira Chabram and colleagues who focused on people who have taken sabbaticals in their life and how they have used those sabbaticals to different ends, is to not only think of sabbaticals as places to recover, but to also think of them as places to discover more about oneself and importantly, to then also practice. And I think it's this practice component that we often underestimate. I think a lot of people are very happy to do the kind of self exploration that Lynn talked about, but the second step is then to apply that and to experiment, to practice. What would the action look like to then act on that information, and what sort of feedback do I then get?

如Rumina Ibara所言，这就像构建‘临时性自我’——如同试穿外套时获得双重反馈：对镜自观时问‘我喜欢这件外套的视觉效果吗？它是否符合我的个性？’；而穿着出席晚宴或上班时，又能观察他人对你的反应。

Rumina Ibara calls that a provisional self. It's kind of like putting on a jacket, and you get two sources of feedback when you put on a jacket. The first is you get to wear it, and you get to look in the mirror, and you get to ask yourself, do I like how I look in this jacket? Do I like what it says about me? But you can then also go to a dinner party, or you can go to the office, and you can see how other people respond to you.

你可以自问，我喜欢他人眼中的自己吗？这是我想要呈现给别人的形象吗？我认为人们在这方面尝试得还不够，部分原因是这确实令人畏惧，但它是极其宝贵的信息来源，能让我们更了解自己——既包括我们是谁、在乎什么，也可能揭示我们渴望如何追求所热爱的事物。

And you can say, do I like how other people see me? Is this how I want to be seen by other people? And it's this experimentation that I think people don't do quite enough of, in part because it's really scary, but it's a really helpful source of information that can tell us a lot about ourselves, both about who we are and what we care about, but perhaps also about how we want to pursue that that we're passionate about.

我想以最后一个问题作结，某种程度上这回到了听众们自我们与你的对话播出后反复追问的话题，Jan。问题是：当最初的热忱开始消退，却找不到新的激情方向时该怎么办？这是一位叫Richard的听众提出的。

I want to end on one last question, and in some ways it goes back to something that I think our listeners have asked over and over since our conversation with you was first put out, Jan. It's about what to do if you don't have a passion to transition to after one starts to dull. It comes from a listener named Richard.

你曾以波士顿交响乐团长笛手为例，她感到人生不应止于音乐，于是离开巅峰事业转型为领导力教练。激情的消退似乎是职业生涯中常见且自然的演变。当热情减退，而未必有另一根可抓住的秋千绳时——当然，拥有第二个热衷的领域是幸运的。但若没有呢？能否谈谈那些激情消退却无替代目标者的心路历程？

You gave the example of the Boston Symphony flautist who felt there was more to her life than music, and she left her pinnacle career to become a leadership coach. It seems dulling of passion is a common and perhaps natural evolution in the lifespan of a career. If passion dulls, and that does not necessarily mean there's another trapeze to grab onto, Having a second interest that one is passionate about, of course, is great. But what if there is not one? Can you speak about the journey of people whose passion dulls, yet do not have anything to replace it with?

你怎么看，Jan？

What do you think, Jan?

我深切感受到这个问题。感谢Richard的分享。表面看来，这个问题充满恐惧——如果我最在乎的事物消失了，却不知前路何在，或认为根本无路可走怎么办？这确实可怕，因为这某种程度上意味着我们不再确定自己是谁。

I felt that question. I I thank you, Richard, for sharing that. I think that on its surface, I can hear a lot of fear in that question. What happens if one thing that I deeply care about is no longer there for me, and I don't know what comes next, or I I don't think that there is something that comes next? That is really scary because in part, it means that we don't necessarily know who we are anymore.

这让我想起橄榄球员安德鲁·拉克因伤退役后被迫面对的问题：如果我不再是四分卫，那我究竟是谁？萨莉·纳特拉研究的因伤结束职业生涯的舞者们也面临同样困惑。当人经历这种转变时，产生痛苦与迷茫是正常的，或许本就应该预期这是个艰难时期，且未必有简易答案。这没关系，本就是人生旅程的一部分。

In many ways, it reminds me of the football player Andrew Luck who had to give up on football because of an injury and then was forced to to confront himself with a question, if I'm not a quarterback, then who am I? Sallie Natla similarly has focused on dancers who had a career ending injury, and those are the very same thoughts that they ask themselves. If I'm not a dancer, then who am I? So I think recognizing that when a person goes through something like that, it is normal, and perhaps it should be expected that that's a very painful time period and that perhaps there is no easy answer or easy solution. That's fine, and that's part of the journey.

关键在于我们如何应对这份痛苦。我们可以选择治标不治本地缓解痛苦，让自己忙碌于各种事务——它们或许不够意义深远，但能提供足够正向反馈维持生活。这是一种方式，但可能无法带来长期积极成果，也难以让人生感到真正充实。

I think what we do next is then what determines the rest of that journey, what we do with that pain. We can say, I'm gonna do what I can to modify that pain, to treat that pain but not the underlying symptom, I'm and gonna spread myself very thin. I'm gonna do a lot of different things. They might unnecessarily be meaningful, but they provide me with enough positive feedback that I can keep going. And that's one approach, but probably not an approach that will allow you to have long term positive outcomes and will make you feel like your life is particularly meaningful.

我认为更具挑战性的问题是，那么你究竟是谁？比如，为什么你对这件事如此在意，还有没有其他方式去追求它？如何以此为跳板继续拓展？所以我觉得这反映了一个可能性，即如果我们注意到激情的火焰正在熄灭，或许我们能做更多准备来应对接下来的一切。但我甚至想说，如果在这件事上激情的火焰正在熄灭，我能否做些什么来重新点燃它？

I think the more challenging set of questions is, well, then who are you to begin with? Like, why did you care so deeply about this one thing, and how else could you pursue that? How else could you use that as a jumping point to continue expanding? So I think it speaks to, on the one hand, the possibility perhaps there is more we can do to prepare ourselves for what comes next if we notice that the flame of our passion is dying. But I would even say, if the flame of our passion is dying in this one thing, is there something I can do to rekindle it?

仅仅因为激情正在消退，我不一定会推断这意味着它永远消失了。也许我可以做些事情来重振它。也许我可以回顾并理解最初为什么在意这件事？过去几年发生了什么变化？当我回想起曾经充满激情的时期，那时的环境是怎样的？

Just because a passion is dying, I wouldn't necessarily use the inference that means that it's gone forever. Perhaps there's something I can do to reinvigorate that. Perhaps I can go back and understand why did I care about this to begin with? What has changed in the last few years? When I think back to a time period when I was really fired up, what were the circumstances then?

我当时和谁共事？在做什么项目？生活中发生了什么？我们常常推断一定是哪里出了问题，但也许我只是处于压力之下。可能我真的很紧张。

Who was I working with? What was I working on? What was going on in my life? I think we often make the inference that there must be something wrong, but perhaps I'm under duress. Maybe I'm really stressed.

也许生活中发生了一些事情，让我很难体验到激情。所以我认为可以借此机会进行诊断，甚至尝试一些实验。如果这些都不奏效，你真的放弃了一个激情，不知道接下来该做什么，给自己空间去理解这种痛苦是可以的，因为失去激情是一个巨大的损失。而在失去之后，可能会有新的事物出现，为下一件事提供空间和机会。

Maybe something is happening in my life that makes it really difficult for me to experience passion. So I think using that as an opportunity to diagnose, perhaps even to experiment. And if none of that works and, really, you give up on a passion and you don't know what comes next, to give yourself the space to understand it is okay if it's really painful because what has happened is a big loss. And after their loss, something else could happen, and it provides space and opportunity for the next thing.

Jan Yahimovich是哈佛商学院的行为科学家。Jan，非常感谢你再次加入我们的《隐藏的大脑》节目。

Jan Yahimovich is a behavioral scientist at the Harvard Business School. Jan, thank you so much for joining us again on Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你邀请我，Shankar。

Thank you so much, Shankar, for having me.

《隐藏的大脑》由Hidden Brain Media制作。我们的音频制作团队包括Annie Murphy Paul、Kristen Wong、Laura Quarrell、Ryan Katz、Autumn Barnes、Andrew Chadwick和Nick Woodbury。Tara Boyle是我们的执行制作人。我是《隐藏的大脑》的执行编辑。如果你喜欢今天节目中探讨的想法，请与几位朋友分享。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brains executive editor. If you enjoyed the ideas we explore on today's episode, please share it with a few friends.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。很快再见。

I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.