家长止步！

游戏能让孩子快乐。

Play makes children happy.

我们不需要证明这一点，对吧？

We shouldn't have to prove that, right?

我是说，游戏就是让孩子快乐的东西。

I mean, play is what makes children happy.

其他类型的独立活动也是如此，孩子们会感到开心，当他们能独立完成事情时会感到自豪。

It's also the case that other kinds of independent activities, children feel good, they feel proud when they can do things by themselves.

这会给你一种自信感等等。

It gives you a sense of confidence and so on.

所以如果你剥夺了孩子的这些，他们就会变得不那么快乐。

So you take that away from children and write off, they're going to be less happy.

著名游戏研究者布莱恩·萨顿-史密斯几年前去世了，他常说：游戏的反面是抑郁。

And a famous play researcher, Brian Sutton Smith, who died a few years ago, and he used to say, The opposite of play is depression.

我认为在某种意义上他是对的，如果你剥夺了人们的游戏权利，他们就会变得抑郁。

And I think in a sense he's right that if you take away play from people, they're going to be depressed.

但除此之外，研究表明，当孩子们在玩耍和独立做其他事情时，他们正在获得技能和自主意识，即心理学家所称的内在控制点意识，这使他们认识到自己能够解决问题。

But in addition to that, what research shows is that when children are playing and doing other things independently, they are acquiring the skills and the sense of agency, the sense of what psychologists call an internal locus of control that leads them to recognize that they can solve problems.

他们能够应对人生道路上的坎坷。

They can deal with the bumps in the road of life.

你在玩耍时就在处理这些事情。

You're dealing with that when you're playing.

比如有人稍微欺负你，不是由父母或成年人来解决问题，而是你自己想办法解决；或者你受伤了，自己想办法处理；又或者你迷路了，自己找到回家的路。

You know, you're somebody's bullying you a little bit and and instead of a parent or an adult solving the problem, you figure out how to solve that problem or you get hurt and you figure out what to do about it or you get lost and you find your way home.

这些都是历史上孩子们一直经历的各种体验，正是通过这些，他们学会了'我能应对问题'。

All of these are the kinds of experiences that children throughout history have always experienced and it's how they learn, I can deal with problems.

不必害怕这个世界，因为我能解决这些问题。

Don't have to be afraid of the world because I can solve these problems.

但如果我们不允许孩子们这样做，他们就不会形成这种内在的控制感。

But if we're not allowing children to do that, they don't develop this internal sense of control.

这会导致你变得焦虑。

That sets you up to be anxious.

如果这种情况发展过度，就会导致抑郁，对世界产生绝望感。

And if it goes too far, it sets you up to be depressed, a sense of hopelessness about the world.

这些都是理论上的原因。

So those are the theoretical reasons.

实证研究则来自一系列其他类型的研究，这些研究表明那些有更多独立玩耍机会的孩子，在心理状态上比那些机会较少的孩子表现更好。

The empirical reasons come from a whole range of other kinds of studies that show that those children who do have more opportunity for independent play are doing better psychologically than those who have less.

彼得，你认为成年人越来越多地介入孩子的生活有什么积极影响吗？

Do you think there are any positives, Peter, to the increased involvement of adults in children's lives?

确实可以指出一些积极的变化。

You could point to some positive changes.

青少年交通事故减少了，因为开车的青少年变少了。

There are fewer teenage traffic accidents because fewer teenagers are driving.

实际上现在青少年发生性行为的比例也比过去低。

There's actually less sex among teenagers than in the past.

所以从历史角度看，在很多方面可能会认为这是件好事。

So historically, in many ways, might regard it as a good thing.

年轻人中性传播疾病减少，意外怀孕等情况也比过去少。

There are fewer sexually transmitted diseases among young people, there's fewer unwanted pregnancies and so on than in the past.

有些人指出这些变化是积极的进展，源于成年人对孩子生活的更多参与。

Some people point to those things as positive developments that have occurred from the fact that there's much more adult involvement in children's lives.

稍后回来，我们将探讨如何在探索与安全之间找到平衡。

When we come back, how to balance the imperatives of exploration and safety.

您正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

彼得·格雷是波士顿学院的心理学教授。

Peter Gray is a psychologist at Boston College.

他是《自由学习》的作者，书中阐述了释放玩耍本能将如何使我们的孩子更快乐、更自立，并成为终身学习者的原因。

He's the author of Free to Learn, Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play will make our children happier, more self reliant, and better students for life.

彼得，你已经阐述了当前育儿和教育方式带来的一些问题。

Peter, you've laid out some of the problems that arise from our present day approach to parenting and education.

你说通过回顾过去，我们可以一窥更健康的童年文化会是什么样子。

You say that we can get a glimpse of what a healthier culture of childhood would look like by turning to the past.

彼得，你自己的童年是怎样的？

What was your own childhood like, Peter?

我是上世纪五十年代的孩子，那时有很多同龄人。

I was a kid in the nineteen fifties, which was a time there were a lot of kids.

我们经常搬家，但我发现我能很快交到朋友，因为我只需要出门就能遇到其他孩子。

We moved a lot, but I found I made friends very quickly because all I had to do was to go outdoors and I would find other kids.

当然到我上学时，我已经像其他孩子一样独自步行去学校了。

And certainly by the time I started school, I was walking to school by myself as was everybody else.

彼得五岁时，他的家人从明尼阿波利斯搬到了明尼苏达州南部的一个小镇。

When Peter turned five, his family moved from Minneapolis to a small town in Southern Minnesota.

小彼得的首要任务，就是找到新朋友。

Job number one for little Peter, find new friends.

我记得母亲说，你为什么不挨家挨户敲门，问问有没有和你同龄的孩子呢？

I remember my mother saying, well, why don't you just go door to door, knock on the doors, and ask if there are any children there your age?

于是我就自己去了，挨家挨户敲门，结果发现街对面那户人家的妈妈开了门，我就问：您家有和我差不多大的孩子吗？

So I did that all by myself, went door to door and it turns out that right across the street, the mom came to the door and I said, do you have any children who are about my age?

她说有啊有啊，我有个女儿叫红宝石·卢。

And she said, yes, yes, I've got a daughter, Ruby Lu.

然后红宝石·卢就出来了，我们一起出去玩。

And so Ruby Lu came to the door and we went out to play.

红宝石·卢很快就成了我最好的朋友。

And Ruby Lu very quickly became my best friend.

跟我聊聊她吧。

Tell me a little bit about her.

你们平时都一起做些什么？

What would you do together?

露比·卢比我稍大一些。

So Ruby Lu was a little bit older than me.

她比我早上学，但这部分是因为她的生日日期不同。

She started school before I did, but it was partly just a difference in when her birthday was.

她比我更胆大些。

And she was kind of bolder than I was.

我在某些方面是个害羞的孩子，有点恐高之类的。

I was kind of a shy kid in some ways, a little bit afraid of heights and so on.

但她是个爬树高手。

But she was a great tree climber.

她教我如何爬树，并挑战我越爬越高。

She showed me how to climb the trees and she would challenge me to climb higher and higher in the trees.

我记得最清楚的故事是她有辆自行车。

I think the story that I remember best is that she had a bicycle.

那时候我还没有自行车。

I at that point did not have a bicycle.

我那时非常渴望学会骑自行车。

And I was really eager to learn how to ride a bicycle.

于是她说，好吧，我来教你骑自行车。

So she said, Well, I'll teach you how to ride a bicycle.

原来我们两家之间的街道有一个小斜坡。

So it turns out the street between our houses was on a small slope.

她就说，学骑自行车最简单的方法就是从坡顶开始，给自己一个推力。

And so she said, Well, the easiest way to learn how to ride a bicycle is start at the top of the slope and give yourself a push.

然后你只要开始蹬踏板，能骑多远就骑多远，看看每次能不能骑得更远一点。

And then you just start pedaling and go as far as you can go and see if you can go a little farther every time.

这真是学骑自行车的绝妙指导啊。

What wonderful instructions for how to ride a bicycle.

我就照做了，她的自行车是女式车，学起来更容易，因为我不需要把腿跨过那根横梁。

And so I did that and her bike was a girl's bike, which made it easier to learn because I didn't have to swing my leg up over that bar.

就这样，她教会了我骑自行车。

And so she taught me how to ride a bicycle.

当我学会骑自行车后，我说服父母给我买了一辆二手自行车。

Then once I could ride a bicycle, I convinced my parents to buy me a secondhand bike.

我和她经常在镇上各处骑自行车游玩。

She and I would take bicycle trips all around town.

我母亲说，这对我是件好事。

And my mother said, it's fine for me.

我可以自己买一辆。

I could buy myself.

我骑车时不能超出镇子范围。

I had to stay within the town limits on the bike.

但和Ruby Lu一起时，我们可以去任何想去的地方，因为她认为Ruby Lu比我更懂事、年长些也更聪明。

But with Ruby Lu, it would be okay to go wherever we wanted because she assumed Ruby Lu was wiser and a little older and smarter than I was.

我想她确实如此。

I think she was.

我们可以一起到处去。

And we could go places together.

我了解到你以前经常参加体育运动，但那些不像现在这样由成人组织的正规球队。

I understand you played a lot of sports, but these were not like the adult organized sports teams that we have today.

是啊。

Yeah.

那时候孩子们都热衷于打棒球，我们只要一有空就会在空地上集合，随便找些附近的孩子们自己组织棒球比赛。

So the kids were all into baseball there, and we would just get together whenever we could on the vacant lot, whatever kids were around and we'd create our own baseball games.

所以每支队伍都要自己选出一个类似教练的人，由他来决定谁打什么位置等等。

And so each team had to sort of choose their own player to who would kind of be the coach who would decide who's gonna play what positions and so on and so forth.

不知为何，尽管我是队里年龄最小的球员之一，队友们还是选我当了教练。

And for some reason, even though I was one of the youngest players, the players chose me on my team to be the coach.

这意味着我得负责提醒大家比赛时间。

So that meant that I was the one who had to remind people when the games were.

我还得决定谁来当投手。

I had to decide who was going to pitch.

每个人都想当投手。

Everybody wanted to pitch.

所以我得想出个轮换方案来让大家满意。

So I had to figure out some rotating way to please everybody.

我的意思是，这种情况下最大的挑战当然是要确保每个人都留在队里。

I mean, the biggest challenge of course you have in a situation like this is you want everybody to stay on the team.

你得让每个人都开心。

You want to keep everybody happy.

管理这支队伍在当时对我来说是个非常成人化的责任，那时我大概才八岁左右。

And it was kind of a very much an adult like responsibility to manage this team when I was, I suppose I would have been about eight years old at that time.

没有大人在场。

There were no adults.

大人们从不来参加这些比赛。

The adults never came to these games.

唯一参与的成年人可能是个青少年，他会担任裁判，负责判定好球、坏球以及界内界外。

Only adult involved was, it probably was a teenager who would be an umpire there who would call balls and strikes and fair and foul.

这就是它与我们临时比赛的不同之处。

And that's what made it different from our pickup games.

我是说，现在很难想象一个八九岁的孩子负责一支少年棒球队。

I mean, would be hard to imagine an eight or nine year old in charge of a Little League Baseball team today.

没错。

That's right.

这是我们期望值的变化。

This is a change in our expectations.

这不是人类生理能力的变化，但在其他文化中，比如狩猎采集文化，你不会对八岁孩子能承担这种责任感到惊讶。

It's not a change in what people are capable of biologically, but it's in other cultures and hunter gatherer cultures, you would not be surprised by something like this that eight year old could take that kind of responsibility.

显然那是个不同的时代，但你对如何在当下生活中为孩子们重新引入一些玩乐元素有什么建议吗？

Now, clearly it was a different time, a different era, but you have some suggestions on how we might bring back an element of playfulness into children's lives in our present day.

而且你认为父母可以通过问孩子一个简单的问题来开启这个话题。

And and you see that parents can ask a simple question to their children that could get the ball rolling.

彼得，这个问题是什么呢？

What is this question, Peter?

问问孩子：'有什么事情是你真正想做、觉得自己能做到，并且希望独立完成的？' 然后开启这段对话，看看孩子会怎么说。

What is something that you really would like to do that you feel you could do but you'd like to do on your own and initiate that conversation, see what the child says.

也许孩子会说，嗯，我想能自己骑自行车去朋友家。

And maybe the child will say, well, know, I'd like to be able to ride my bicycle all by self to my friend's house.

或者孩子可能会说，我其实想自己做晚饭。

Or maybe the child will say, I'd actually like to cook dinner.

但现在孩子是在主动询问父母，进行这样的讨论，目的是达成某种共识。

But now the child is asking the parent is having this discussion and the idea would be to reach some kind of a kind of a agreement.

好吧，你可以做这件事。

Well, okay, you can do this.

可能不完全符合孩子的要求，但父母认为可以接受的程度。

It may not be exactly what the child's asking for, but something that the parent thinks is okay.

这样就打破了原有循环，某种程度上改变了讨论方向。

So that kind of breaks into this cycle where you sort of change the discussion.

现在不再仅仅是关于安全的问题。

It's not now just about safety.

现在是要在安全与独立活动的公认价值之间取得平衡，并承认孩子想做的事确实很重要。

It's now about balancing safety with an acknowledged value in independent activity and an acknowledgement that what the child wants to do is actually important.

你看，父母也可以与其他志同道合的成年人合作，为轻度监督的游戏创造空间和时间。

You see that parents can also work with other like minded adults to make space and time for lightly supervised play.

这会如何运作呢？

How would this work?

这实际上已经在一些社区发生了。

This has actually occurred in some neighborhoods.

我希望这种现象能更普遍些——有些父母（或许不止一个）已经决定，我们真心希望孩子能有更多机会在没有我们干预的情况下玩耍。

I wish it occurred more where some parent or maybe more than one parent have decided, you know, we really would like our children to have more opportunities to play without us intervening.

我们记得自己童年的经历以及从游戏中获得的益处。

We remember our own experiences as children and what we benefited from play.

我们需要为孩子们提供这种机会，该如何实现呢？

We need to provide this for our children, how can we do it?

因此一个策略就是与有孩子的邻居们达成共识：每周六我们都让孩子出去玩，但要把电子设备留在家里。

And so one strategy is to get together with the neighbors who have kids and to say, all right, every Saturday, we're all gonna send our kids out and keep your devices inside.

我们会让你们出去玩——但所有孩子都要一起出去。

We're gonna send you out and but they're all going out.

如果有家长担心安全问题，我们会安排一位成年人负责安全监督。

If some of the parents are concerned about safety, we'll have one adult out there just for safety.

在我看来，最理想的情况是由祖父母担任这个角色，因为我发现祖父母通常比父母更少干预孩子的活动。

In my opinion, ideally, that adult is a grandparent because find that grandparents tend to be a little less likely to intervene than parents are.

但共识是这位成年人就像海滩救生员一样，只在出现真正危险时介入，而不会指导孩子如何玩耍或解决小问题。

But the understanding would be that that adult is there like a lifeguard on an ocean beach only there in case there's some kind of real danger, but not to tell the children how to play or to solve minor problems.

确实有些社区已经这样做了，包括说服市政府在游戏时段封闭繁忙街道的情况。

So there are a few neighborhoods who have done that, including some that have actually got the city to close off the streets if it's a busy street during that period of time when it's playtime.

一旦孩子们开始一起玩耍并相互熟悉，他们可能会找到其他时间一起玩耍的方式，而不仅限于原先安排的时间。

And once the kids are playing together and they get to know one another, then they may find other ways to play during other times as well other than just the formerly chosen one.

彼得表示学校也可以在促进游戏方面发挥作用。

Peter says schools can also play a role in promoting play.

他一直在与全国各地的学校合作创建游戏俱乐部。

He has been working with schools around the country to create play clubs.

游戏俱乐部通常是在小学里进行的一小时自由混龄游戏活动，所有年级的孩子一起参与。

And what play club is, is an hour of free age mixed play usually in elementary schools, all the grades combined.

所以大约是5到11岁的孩子都混龄一起玩耍。

So it's age five through 11, roughly all combined, all playing together.

通常是在上学前，但有时也在放学后。

Usually it is before school, but sometimes after school.

这需要学校方面付出一些努力，他们必须安排人员来管理。

And so this takes a little bit of effort on the part of the school, they have to have somebody there to manage it.

负责监督游戏俱乐部的老师们被建议或教导不要介入小争执，不要指导孩子如何更好地玩耍，也不要因为有人看起来不开心而担心。

The teachers who monitor play club are advised or taught really not to solve little quarrels, not to tell the children how to play better, not to worry if somebody looks unhappy.

游戏的整个目的是让孩子们学会如何解决自己的问题。

The whole purpose of play is for children to learn how to solve their own problems.

对于已经采用这种方式的学校来说，这非常成功。

For the schools that have adopted this, this has been very successful.

彼得，你说这很大程度上归结为一个信任问题，即成年人是否愿意相信孩子在没有干预的情况下，会以积极有益的方式度过时间。

So Peter, you say that much of this boils down to a question of trust, to the willingness that adults have to trust their children that left to their own devices, they're gonna spend their time in positive and productive ways.

你能谈谈这个核心观点吗？本质上存在一种情感因素，如果父母真正相信孩子会做聪明和正确的事，他们可能就不会那么热衷于不断介入或干预孩子的生活。

Can you talk about this idea that at at its core, there's an emotional element here that if parents actually trusted their kids to do the smart thing and to do the right thing, they might be less interested in engaging or intervening constantly in their children's lives.

我们真正讨论的是，作为父母，你认为需要在多大程度上控制你的孩子？

Really what we're talking about here is to what degree do you as a parent feel that you need to control your child?

以及你认为在多大程度上可以信任孩子，让他们在没有你控制的情况下做对自己有益的事情？

And to what degree do you feel you can trust your child to do what is good for the child themselves without you controlling?

所以我所说的真正意义上的信任型父母，是指那些信任孩子的发展过程并允许这些发展过程自然发生的父母，这实际上意味着允许孩子玩耍、探索、在想要提问时向成人提问，以及做孩子们天性想做的所有事情。

So really ultimately what I mean by trustful parent is one who trusts the child's developmental processes and allows those developmental processes to occur, which really means allowing the child to play, to explore, ask questions of adults when they want to ask those questions and all of that, to do the things that children by nature want to do.

在你的研究中，你讲述了一个引人注目的故事，这可以说是现实版的《蝇王》小说。

In your work, you recount a remarkable story that is a kind of real life version of the novel, Lot of the Flies.

这个故事是由荷兰历史学家鲁特格·布雷格曼发现的。

The story was unearthed by a Dutch historian, Rutger Bregman.

给我讲讲那个故事。

Tell me that story.

在20世纪60年代，曾真实发生过一个案例：一群与《蝇王》小说中虚构儿童年龄相仿的男学生，生活在太平洋的一个岛屿上。

There was a real a real case in the nineteen sixties of a group of schoolboys about the same age as the fictitious children in Lord of the Flies living in a Pacific island.

他们的年龄在13至16岁之间。

They ranged in age from 13 to 16.

他们决定自己已经厌倦了学校生活。

And they had decided they were tired of school.

当时他们在一所寄宿学校，美其名曰'借用'，但实际上就是偷了一艘渔船。

They were at a boarding school and they called it borrowing, but they basically stole a fishing boat.

他们其实并不擅长航海。

They weren't really very good sailors.

他们驶向海洋，目标是前往另一个岛屿。

They went off into the ocean aimed at another island that they wanted to get to.

但一场大风暴袭来，最终他们在一座无人岛上遭遇了海难。

But a big storm came up and they ended up shipwrecked on uninhabited island.

整整十五个月都没有人发现他们。

And nobody found them for fifteen months.

与《蝇王》不同，这些孩子很好地照顾了自己。

Unlike in Lord of the Flies, these kids took care of themselves.

他们之间没有发生争斗。

They did not war with one another.

他们意识到，要知道，我们的生命在这里岌岌可危。

They recognized, you know, our lives are in danger here.

他们学会了如何寻找食物。

They figured out how to find food.

他们分辨出哪些是可食用的，哪些是不可食用的。

They figured out what's edible, what's not edible.

他们实际上还开辟了一个菜园。

They actually planted a garden.

他们创建了一个菜园，以防需要长期滞留。

They created a garden in case they were there for a long time.

他们总是安排一个孩子瞭望过往船只，试图发出求救信号。

They always had one child on watch for passing ships to try to flag them.

其中一个男孩摔断了腿，孩子们想办法固定伤腿进行保护，最后竟然痊愈了。

One of the boys broke a leg and the kids figured out how to set the leg to protect it and it actually healed up.

他们以非凡的方式互相照顾。

They took care of one another in a remarkable way.

他们活下来了。

They survived.

所以这个故事与小说《蝇王》的情节完全相反。

And so this is a story that's the exact opposite of the fiction Lord and the Flies.

绝大多数孩子永远不需要在荒岛上求生。

The vast majority of children are never going to have to survive on a deserted island.

但打个比方说，他们终将需要学会如何航行在危险且不可预测的海域上。

But they are going to have to figure out, metaphorically speaking, how to navigate perilous and unpredictable seas.

给予他们这样做的空间和自主权在直觉上是合理的。

Giving them the space and autonomy to do so makes intuitive sense.

但在当今世界实践这些理念并不总是那么简单。

But putting these ideas into practice in the world we live in today isn't always straightforward.

稍后回来时，我们将回答您的问题。

When we come back, your questions answered.

我们将重新探讨听众们关于彼得·格雷研究的提问，这些提问来自家长、教师等人群。

We revisit listener driven questions about Peter Gray's research from parents, teachers, and others.

您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在今天节目的第一部分，我们重温了2024年与心理学家彼得·格雷关于童年及非结构化游戏重要性的对话。

In the first part of today's episode, we revisited a twenty twenty four conversation about childhood and the importance of unstructured play with psychologist Peter Gray.

在接下来的节目环节中，我们将为您带来首次播出后发布的《您的疑问解答》特辑。

In this next part of the episode, we're going to bring you an installment of Your Questions Answered that we released after the episode first aired.

内容包括听众们关于童年教育以及如何实践彼得·格雷理念的提问。

It features listeners' questions about childhood and how they can put some of Peter Gray's ideas into practice.

此前我们了解到彼得之子斯科特在童年时如何反抗传统学校教育。

We heard earlier about how Peter's son, Scott, rebelled against conventional school when he was a boy.

最终，很明显斯科特需要一种不同于学校的教育方式。

Eventually, it became clear that Scott needed something different from school.

终于在四年级快结束时达到了一个临界点，他的母亲、我、学校的多位成年人包括校长和一些心理学家，都和他开会讨论必须遵守规则的问题。

Finally, it kind of reached a crisis point near the end of fourth grade where, his mother, me, various adults from the school, including the school principal and some psychologists, all met with him about you have to follow the rules.

他一直在故意以学校、老师明显无法容忍的方式进行反抗。

He'd been very deliberately rebelling in ways that obviously the school, the teacher couldn't really tolerate.

但这都是他在向我们传递一个信息：他在学校里非常不开心。

But it was all a message to us that he was really unhappy in school.

他需要不同的教育方式，这是他向我们表达的方式。

He needed something different, and this was his way of telling us that.

最终的结果是我们找到了一所非常另类的学校，那里有各种学习机会但绝不强制。

So ultimately, the result of that was that we found a very alternative school, a school that it's a place where there are all sorts of opportunities for learning but no coercion about it.

对感兴趣的人来说，这所学校名叫马萨诸塞州弗雷明汉的萨德伯里山谷学校，至今仍在运营。

The name of the school, for people who are interested, it's the Sudbury Valley School in Framingham, Massachusetts, still in existence.

实际上它已经存在超过五十年了。

It's actually been in existence for over fifty years.

这所学校基于一个原则：当孩子们自主决定学习内容时，他们的学习效果最佳。

It's a school that is based on the principle that children learn best when they direct their own learning, when they make their own decisions about what they want to learn.

这是一所民主学校。

It's a democratic school.

学校由全体会议管理，每位学生和教职员工都拥有投票权。

It's run by the school meeting where everybody has a vote, students and staff members.

学生年龄从四岁到青少年后期不等。

The students are there from four on through late teenage years.

这些孩子不按年龄划分。

These children are not segregated by age.

学校的部分理念是：年幼孩子会自然向年长孩子学习，而年长孩子则通过与年幼孩子互动学会关爱和领导力。

Part of the philosophy of the school is that younger children learn naturally from older children and older children learn how to be caring and leaders by interacting with younger children.

这就是他后来就读的学校。

So this is a school he went to.

他一直读完了相当于其他学校高中阶段的教育。

And he went all the way through what elsewhere would be called high school.

这改变了我的职业生涯，因为作为一个关心的家长，我和这里的许多听众一样可能会想：如果让他们在这里一直读完高中会怎样？

It changed my career because as a concerned parent, I like many listeners here might wonder, well, boy, what's gonna happen if I allow them to go all the way through high school here?

于是我在波士顿学院开始了一项非常不同的研究。

So I've been doing a very different kind of research at Boston College.

我一直在用啮齿动物做大脑研究。

I've been doing brain research with rodents.

但我决定，我需要了解这所学校的毕业生后来怎么样了。

But I decided, you know, I need to find out what happens with the graduates of this school.

这所学校已经存在足够长时间，已经有毕业生了，所以我做了个毕业生研究，发现他们都过得很好。

The school had already been around long enough that there were graduates, and so I did a study of the graduates and found they're doing very well.

这某种程度上改变了我职业生涯的方向。

And that kind of changed the direction of my career.

学校里会有正式意义上的导师或教师吗？

Would there be instructors or teachers at the school in the formal sense?

这很有趣。

So it's interesting.

学校的教职员工——顺便说一句，我儿子现在也是那里的员工之一。

The staff members at the school, and by the way, my son is now a staff member there.

所以学校的员工们不称自己为老师。

So the staff members at the school don't call themselves teachers.

他们不这样称呼的原因是认为自己并不比其他人教得更多。

And the reason they don't is they believe that they don't do any more teaching than anybody else does.

他们相信学习来源于对话和各种经历。

They believe that learning comes from conversations, from all sorts of experiences.

因此他们不自称老师，但有时也会教学——当被要求这样做的时候。

So they don't call themselves teachers, but there are times when they teach, and those times are when they are asked to.

最常见的教学发生在每年有群孩子计划继续深造上大学的时候。

The most common teaching occurs when there's a group of kids at a certain time of year who are planning to go on to college, to higher education.

他们没有成绩单，没有评分制度，学校拒绝给学生排名。

And they have no records, there's no grades, there's no The school refuses to rank people.

他们不得不说：我们没有排名的依据。

They'd have to say, We have no basis for ranking.

某某是最棒的渔夫，但他们知道如果参加SAT考试就必须考出好成绩。

So and so is the best fishermen, but So they know they have to be able to do well on the SAT tests if there are SAT tests.

于是他们会开始有针对性地备考，并可能寻求帮助。

So they will start deliberately preparing for that, and they may ask for help.

这就是一个实例，实际上也是最常见的情况，你会看到类似学校教育的场景。

So that would be one instance, actually the most common instance, where you see something that actually looks like school going on.

彼得，在你评估该校毕业生的研究中，你发现了什么？

So in your study where you evaluated the students who were graduates from the school, what did you find, Peter?

嗯。

Yeah.

我发现有很高比例的学生进入了大学，尽管从文件上看他们不符合大学的入学要求，但他们还是被录取了。

So, what I found was that a very high percentage went on to college, and they didn't seem to have any difficulty getting in, even though on they paper, you know, they hadn't satisfied what the colleges say you have to do to go there, but they got in.

他们写了出色的申请文书。

They wrote wonderful essays.

他们通常很擅长面试，因为不畏惧与成年人交流。

They tend to be really good interviewers because they're not afraid of adults.

如果他们选择上大学，他们一定有充分的理由，并且能够清晰表达出来。

If they're going to college, they have a good reason to go, and they're able to articulate that.

我认为所有这些都起到了很大帮助。

And I think all of that helped a lot.

另外，对于那些上了大学的学生，我问他们感觉如何。

Also, for those who went on to college, I asked them, so how was it?

有些人回答说，是的，比如我选修了生物课，但我之前从没上过生物课。

And some of them said, yeah, you know, if I took a biology course, I'd never taken a biology course before.

我从未读过生物课本。

I'd never read a biology textbook.

当然其他同学都读过，但你知道吗，我其实并没有落后太多。

And of course, all the other students had, but, you know, I wasn't really that much behind.

我很轻松就赶上来了。

You know, I easily caught up.

有人提到一个术语，比如教授讲到减数分裂，他们就会去查资料。

Somebody used a term, you know, let's say the professor talked about meiosis, well, they looked it up.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们习惯于自我导向。

They're used to self direction.

他们习惯于承担责任。

They're used to taking responsibility.

遇到不认识的术语，他们就会去查。

If there's a term they don't know, they look it up.

如果真有完全不懂的内容，他们也不怕在课后向教授请求额外讲解。

If there is something that they really don't understand, they're not afraid to ask for the professor for a little bit more explanation outside of class.

所以我认为他们告诉我的优势——这个优势让他们觉得完全弥补了任何劣势——就是他们学会了对自己和自己的学习负责。

So I think what they told me is that the advantage they had, which they felt was more than compensated for any disadvantage, was that they had learned to take responsibility for themselves and their own learning.

许多家长在尝试创造更多非结构化游戏机会时遇到的困难之一是社会压力，尤其在美国这样的国家，父母们非常渴望帮助孩子成功。

One of the difficulties that many parents encounter when they try to create more opportunities for unstructured play is societal pressure, particularly in countries like The United States where there is a great desire among parents to help their children succeed.

这是我们收到听众安妮的一条留言。

Here's a message we received from listener Anne.

作为三个孩子的家长，最小的九岁，我深切感受到父母们实际上已经精疲力尽，甚至不愿再承担时刻管控孩子生活的责任。

As a parent of three children, my youngest is nine, I have a strong sense that parents are actually exhausted and don't even want the responsibility of constantly micromanaging their children's lives.

然而，社会上确实存在强大的压力告诉我们，如果不精心设计孩子的生活——比如不给他们报名合适的夏令营，不让他们接触正确的运动和活动——他们就会落后于人。

However, there are really strong societal forces that tell us that if we don't engineer our kids' lives, for example, if we don't sign them up for the right summer camps or expose them to the right sports and activities, that they'll somehow lose out.

很难不觉得这种说法有一定道理，因为当你听说那些被顶尖大学录取的申请者时，通常都是因为他们拥有这些极具激励性的机会，或在某项运动或学科上表现优异。

And it's hard not to feel that this is somewhat true because when you hear about college applications applicant to get into a top school, it's usually that they have had these really stimulating opportunities or have excelled at something, a sport or an academic subject.

所以我想请教彼得的问题是：您是否有任何见解或证据能反驳这种观点——即父母必须事无巨细地管控孩子的生活才能让他们真正成功？

So I guess my question for Peter is you have any insights or evidence that kind of counters this idea that parents have to micromanage their kids' lives in order for them to be really successful?

彼得，你怎么看？

What do you think, Peter?

你知道吗，我很高兴你提出这个问题。

You know, I'm really glad you asked that question.

我认为这在某种意义上触及了问题的核心，这个社会问题的核心。

This is, I think, in some sense gets at the crux of the problem, the social problem.

父母们为确保孩子达到当前成功标准所承受的压力，正在让孩子们精疲力竭。

The pressure that parents feel to be sure that their children are achieving by the current standards of achievement, this is burning kids out.

这正在耗尽孩子们的精力。

It's exhausting kids.

让我分享一个几年前由美国心理协会进行的小型研究。

Let me give you a little research study that was done some years ago by the American Psychological Association.

他们调查了包括当年青少年在内的美国人，询问他们感到多大压力以及压力来源。

They surveyed, people in America, including teenagers that year, about how stressed they had been and why they were stressed.

结果显示美国高中生是压力最大的人群，甚至超过成年人。

And teenagers in high school turned out to be the most stressed out people in America, more stressed out than adults.

关键点在这里：

And here's the key.

当被问及压力来源时，83%的人表示来自学业压力。

When they were asked what the source of their stress was, Eighty three percent said school pressure.

我们确实让孩子们对此感到恐惧，但我认为这完全没必要。

So we have really frightened kids about this, and I would argue needlessly so.

那些认为不做这些所谓必要之事就无法成功的观点，证据充分表明其谬误。

The evidence that you're not going to succeed if you don't do all these supposed things, the evidence is strongly against that.

我实际上就这个话题写过一篇文章，文中描述了两项由统计学家和经济学家开展的纵向研究，这些研究设计非常严谨。

I actually wrote an article on this, and what I described there is two longitudinal studies, very well controlled studies, by a, statistician and an economist.

他们真正要探讨的问题是：在控制其他变量的情况下，你40岁时的最终收入是否与你上哪所大学有关？

They really ask the question, even in terms of your ultimate earnings by age 40, does it matter what college you go to if you control for other factors?

当然众所周知，如果单纯比较哈佛毕业生和本地州立大学毕业生，哈佛毕业生确实赚得更多。

Now, of course, it's well known that if you go to that that if you just look at Harvard graduates compared to say this local state university, the Harvard graduates are making more money.

他们不仅从事更高端的职业，而且本身就来自收入更高、社会地位更高的家庭。

They're at more high status jobs, but they're also coming from people who make more money and whose parents have more high status.

他们拥有各种特权优势。

They have all kinds of privileges.

所以这些研究者提出：如果我们控制这些变量会怎样？

So these researchers said, what if we control for that?

如果我们用统计方法创造出一组背景完全相同的'双胞胎'样本会怎样？

What if we use statistical means to create the equivalent of identical twins in terms of their background?

然后我们比较那些上了精英大学和普通大学（比如州立大学）的样本。

And we compare those who went to the elite college and those who went to the less elite college, which might be a state university.

它可能是一所不太知名的小型文理学院。

It might be a small liberal arts college that isn't on the map of one of the great.

这两项研究都发现，这并没有造成任何差异。

And what they found in both of these studies is that it made no difference.

所以我认为这会有所帮助。

So I think that would help.

我认为认识到这点的父母，会减轻一些压力。

I think that parents who recognize that, some of that pressure gets taken off.

彼得，你提到了一个你称之为'燃料喷射式育儿'的概念。

You've made a point, Peter, about something that you call fuel injector parenting.

什么是燃料喷射式育儿？

What is fuel injector parenting?

因为我觉得这和安妮刚才提出的问题有关。

Because I think it relates to the question that Anne was just asking.

是的。

Yes.

因此，我认为'燃料喷射式育儿'的典型模式，就是那种刻意让孩子参与各种竞赛，要求他们取得优异成绩等等的育儿方式。

So I would say the prototype of fuel objector parenting is the kind of parenting which is to really subject your child to, competitions quite deliberately to kind of require excellent achievement and so on and so forth.

有位研究者曾好奇，为什么有些父母不惜花费大量金钱和时间让孩子参加竞争性活动，并竭力确保他们在这些活动中表现出色。

There was a researcher who was interested in why are some parents spending huge amounts of money and lots of time to put their children into competitive activities and then to put a lot of effort into making sure that those children do very well in those competitive activities.

于是这位研究者通过观察家庭来展开调查。

And so what this researcher did was to look at families.

她选取了三种不同类型的活动：

She took three different categories of activities.

一种是竞技象棋，一种是竞技舞蹈，还有一种是足球。

One of them was competitive chess, one was competitive dance, and one was soccer.

当她询问家长为何让孩子参加这些活动时发现：

And what she found was the parents put the kids into these when she asked them, Why are you putting them?

家长们认为我们生活在一个高度竞争的社会中。

They believe we live in a very competitive society.

他们并不指望孩子成为职业棋手、舞者或运动员，但相信这些经历能教会孩子竞争的美德、获胜的美德、力争胜利的美德，以及即使不喜欢也要坚持到底的美德。

They didn't expect their child to become a professional chess player or dancer or professional, but they believed that these experiences were teaching their children the virtues of being competitive, the virtues of winning, the virtues of trying to win, the virtues of sticking it out even if you don't like it.

要知道，我认识很多成功人士。

Know, I know a lot of successful people as it turns out.

我所认识的真正成功人士并不特别具有竞争性。

The really successful people that I know are not particularly competitive.

他们之所以成功，是因为懂得如何合作。

They're successful because they know how to cooperate.

所以这种观点认为，我们确实生活在一个竞争社会，但'成功'的途径不是击败他人。

So this view that it is true we're a competitive society, but the route to winning with quotation marks around is not to beat other people.

真正的途径是与人协作，与人合作。

The route is to collaborate with other people, cooperate with other people.

而这正是孩子们在自由玩耍中学习和实践的。

And that's what children learn and practice in free play.

稍后回来时，彼得将回答更多听众关于如何平衡儿童玩耍与安全的问题。

When we come back, Peter answers more listener questions about how to balance children's play with their safety.

您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

我们常常对童年抱有浪漫的想象。

We often have a romantic idea of childhood.

无数电影和书籍描绘了孩子们在广阔户外自由奔跑、在本地水坑游泳、与朋友一起经历冒险与奇遇的场景。

Countless movies and books show kids running free in the great outdoors, swimming in local watering holes and embarking on adventures and misadventures with friends.

但在许多地方，对许多家庭和孩子而言，这种无拘无束童年的愿景仿佛遥不可及的梦想。

But in many places, for many families and many children, this vision of unstructured unfettered childhood feels like a distant dream.

波士顿学院的心理学家彼得·格雷正在研究这些问题。

At Boston College, psychologist Peter Gray studies these questions.

他来到这里解答大家关于他研究的疑问。

He is here to answer your questions about his research.

彼得，我认为许多父母都认识到玩耍在童年时期的重要性，但他们发现鼓励孩子玩耍仍然很棘手，因为孩子自己可能害怕外出探索。

So Peter, I think many parents recognize the importance of play in childhood, but they still find it tricky to encourage that in their children because the children themselves might be afraid to go out and explore.

这是我们收到听众山姆的一个问题。

Here's a question we received from listener Sam.

您有什么建议、技巧或想法可以帮助父母克服对孩子独立玩耍的恐惧，或者让他们足够独立地自己去玩耍？

What suggestions, tips, tricks, ideas do you have to help parents overcome their fear of children's independent play or letting them be independent enough to go off and play on their own?

您认为孩子多大年龄适合真正开始探索独立玩耍，比如骑自行车去朋友家或独自去一个街区外的公园玩耍？

And what age do you think it's appropriate for kids to really start to explore independent play, you know, riding their bike to a friend's house or going to the park a block away to play on their own?

所以我很好奇。

So I'm curious.

我很想听听更多见解。

I'd love to hear more.

我认为这个问题部分与安全有关。

So I think this question is partly to do with safety.

你怎么看，彼得？

What do you think, Peter?

是的。

Yes.

当然，与过去相比，现代社会对于孩子何时能够独立的看法已经发生了显著变化。

Well, of course, the view of what age children are able to be independent has changed remarkably in modern times compared to the past.

在我五岁的时候，我已经可以独自去镇上的任何地方，这在当时的历史背景下对其他孩子来说也基本如此。

By the time I was five, I could go on my own anywhere in town, and that was pretty much true for other kids at that time in our history.

客观地说，那时的世界与今天并没有太大不同。

Objectively, the world wasn't much different from today.

犯罪率与现在相差无几，诸如此类。

Crime rate was about the same as today and so on and so forth.

所以这主要是态度和观念上的差异。

So it's primarily a difference in attitude, a difference in belief.

我经常这样回答个别家长关于'如何增加对孩子的信任，给予孩子更多自由'的问题。

Here's the way I have often addressed the question to individual parents about how do I gain more trust in my child, allow a little bit more freedom to my child.

我建议如下。

I suggest the following.

坐下来和你的孩子进行一次对话，可以这样开始谈话。

Sit down with your child and have a conversation and start the conversation with something like this.

作为成长的一部分，学会为自己承担更多责任，能够独立做事而不总是需要大人时刻盯着，这很有价值。

So it's valuable as part of growing up to, assume more, responsibility for oneself, to be able to do things independently without always having an adult there watching you every minute.

当然，我关心你的安全，我相信你也是。

Of course, I'm concerned about your safety, and I'm sure you are too.

但让我们谈谈你有什么真正想做的事，可能对你来说有点害怕，但你想做并希望得到我的允许。

But let's have a talk about what you think you would really like to do that's maybe just a little bit scary for you that you would like to do and you would like my permission for you to do it.

让我们进行这样的对话吧。

Let's have that conversation.

假设你正在和一个10岁的女儿交谈，她说她真正想做的事是独自骑自行车去朋友家。

Maybe you're talking to a 10 year old daughter and the daughter says you know what I would really like to do is I would like to ride my bicycle all by myself to my friend's house.

也许这位家长之前从未允许女儿独自骑自行车离开身边。

And so maybe the parent has never allowed the daughter to go out of the parent's side on her bicycle.

现在家长可能觉得：'我还没准备好让你这样做。'

So now maybe the parent feels that I'm not ready to let you do that.

然后可能会有某种讨论和协商，女儿说：'那我能不能就自己骑自行车绕街区一圈呢？'

And then maybe there's kind of a discussion, a negotiation, and the daughter says, well, how about if I just ride around the block by myself?

你可以坐在门廊上看着我拐过街角，然后再看着我骑回来。

And you can sit out on the stoop and watch me go around the corner and come back around the corner.

于是家长说：'好吧，我就这么做。'

So the parent says, okay, I'll do that.

孩子照做了，回来时满脸笑容。

And so the child does that and the child comes back beaming.

'我完全靠自己做到了，而且安全回来了！'

I did that all by myself, and I lived to tell the tale.

你知道吗，家长看到这一幕，也开始露出笑容。

You know, this, the parent sees this, and the parent begins to beam.

我们观察到了这种现象。

We've observed this.

我的同事莱诺·斯卡尼亚兹（他真正开发了这项技术）曾坐着观察父母们脸上表情的变化。

My colleague, Lenore Scaniazi, who really developed this technique has sat and watched how the expression on parents' faces changed.

父母为孩子做到这件事感到高兴，也为孩子自己感到快乐而开心。

The parent is happy the child did this, and the parent is happy the child is happy.

是什么打破了这种过度保护的循环？父母看到孩子做到了。

What breaks into this cycle of overprotection, The parent sees the child did this.

现在父母更愿意让孩子做她最初想做的事——独自去朋友家。

Now the parent is a little bit more ready to allow the child to do what she wanted to do in the first place, to go all by herself to her friend's house.

现在在安全顾虑与认识到这是真正成长经历之间，有了更好的平衡。

And now now there's a better balance between the concern for safety and also the realization that this is a real growing experience.

父母开始感到自豪，不仅因为保护了孩子，更因为自己允许孩子成长。

And the parent begins to feel proud not just for protecting the child, but for the fact that the parent is allowing the child to grow up.

我们收到听众Courtney的提问，她想听听您对技术在儿童福祉讨论中所扮演角色的看法，以及技术如何影响他们的游戏方式。

We received a question from listener Courtney who wanted to hear your thoughts on the role of technology in discussions of children's well-being and how they engage in play.

这是向Peter Gray提出的问题。

This is a question for Peter Gray.

他提出观点认为，儿童焦虑症的增加可能与游戏减少有关。

He put forth the idea that the rise in childhood anxiety may be attributable to the decrease in play.

他如何将这个观点与新书《焦虑的一代》中提出的手机和科技应对儿童及青少年焦虑症上升负责的观点相协调？

How does he square that idea with the one put forth in the new book, the anxious generation, that phones and technology are to blame for the rise in childhood and adolescent anxiety?

这两者是否相互关联？

Do those two things go together?

哪一个影响更大？

Is one stronger than the other?

他对手机及青少年接触科技产品有何看法？

What does he think about phones and childhood and adolescent access to technology?

彼得，我们最近邀请了纽约大学心理学家乔纳森·海特上节目，他在《焦虑的一代》这本书中提出，社交媒体的兴起、虚拟应用的普及以及人们——尤其是年轻人——在这些应用上花费的时间，是导致年轻人焦虑加剧的部分甚至核心原因。

So Peter, we recently had, the NYU psychologist Jonathan Hite on on the show, and he makes the case in this book, The Anxious Generation, that, the rise of social media, the ubiquity of the of of virtual apps and the time that people, especially young people, spend on these apps is partly or perhaps even centrally responsible for the rise in anxiety among young people.

这与你的观点如何协调一致？

How does that square with the way you think about it?

是的。

Yeah.

这几乎是我们的一种本能反应。

So it's it's it's almost a knee jerk reaction we have.

如果我们发现孩子们存在某些问题，就意味着我们必须从他们那里剥夺更多东西。

If there's some problem that we see among kids, well, that means there's something else we have to take away from them.

要知道，我们已经剥夺了他们外出自由玩耍的权利。

You know, we took away their freedom to go out and play outdoors.

现在人们又想剥夺他们在互联网上玩耍、交流等等的自由。

Now we people wanna take away their freedom to play on the Internet, to communicate on the Internet and so on and so forth.

我承认网络存在危险，就像户外玩耍也有危险一样。

I recognize there are dangers just like there's dangers about playing outdoors.

但在我小时候，父母不会直接禁止户外玩耍，而是会说'户外玩耍有些危险'。

But you know when I was a kid instead of saying you can't play outdoors, parents said, you know there's some dangers about playing outdoors.

过马路时要左右看。

Look both ways when you cross the street.

如果有陌生人停车让你上车，千万别上去。

If somebody stops to ask you to get in their car, don't do it, you know, if a stranger.

我认为对待互联网也应该采取同样的方式。

I believe in the same approach regarding the Internet.

我认为父母说'你不可以带手机上床睡觉'是非常合理的。

You know, I think it's quite appropriate for parents to say, You're not allowed to take your phone to bed with you.

你需要睡眠。

You need sleep.

我觉得一个家庭规定'晚餐时间我们都要把手机收起来，以便彼此陪伴'完全合适。

I think it's perfectly appropriate for a family to say, At dinnertime, we're all going to put our phones away so we can be here with each other.

教导孩子永远不要在网络上发布任何你不想让未来雇主看到的内容，这是非常恰当的。

I think it's quite appropriate to teach children never put anything on the Internet that you wouldn't want a possible future employer to see.

这些都是非常有价值的教训，我们需要教会孩子们这些。

These are all very valuable lessons, and we need to be teaching kids these things.

我们自己也需要以身作则。

We need to be modeling these things ourselves.

这一点我深信不疑。

That I really believe.

但剥夺孩子们的这些权利，就等于剥夺了我们从他们那里拿走的一切其他东西。

But to take bones away from children is equivalent to taking away everything else we've taken away from them.

这是在贬低他们。

It it belittles them.

这又一次表明我们不信任你。

It once again is saying we don't trust you.

这就是我对这个问题的总体回应。

So that's my my general response to that question.

因此，文化期望并非阻碍为孩子创造更多独立机会的唯一障碍。

So cultural expectations are not the only obstacle to creating more opportunities for kids to become more independent.

听众莫莉给我们发了一封邮件，她写道，我认为这期节目精彩地阐述了年轻人为何需要无监督、无组织的玩耍时间以及面临的诸多障碍。

Listener Molly sent us an email and, she writes, I thought the episode did a wonderful job highlighting many of the reasons why young people need unsupervised and unstructured time to play and many of the barriers.

然而，让我震惊的是，谈话中完全没提到一个挑战——我们的基础设施在支持或阻碍孩子自由方面所起的作用。

I was struck, however, by one challenge that didn't come up at all in the conversation, the role of our infrastructure in supporting or challenging freedom for kids.

我在纽约市长大，从很小的时候就能自由活动于社区，最终是整个城市。

I grew up in New York City and had the run of my neighborhood and eventually the whole city from a pretty young age.

这要归功于步行友好的街道、封闭式公园，当然还有地铁。

Thanks to walkable streets, closed parks, and of course, the subway.

但我现在住在丹佛，我对孩子安全的担忧与其说是陌生人的威胁，不如说是他们被车撞到的真实可能性。

But I now live in Denver, and my fear for my kid's safety is less about stranger danger and more about the very real possibility of them getting hit by a car.

如果你想让孩子拥有更多自由和独立，我们也需要支持这一目标的建筑环境。

If you want kids to have more freedom and independence, we need the built environment that supports that goal as well.

你怎么看，彼得？

What do you think, Peter?

莫莉说得有道理吗？

Does Molly have a point?

她当然说得有道理。

She definitely has a point.

随着我们成为一个汽车主导的社会，一个人人都不步行、孩子不被允许外出的社会，我们正在为汽车而建设，而非为行人考虑。

As we have become a society of cars, as we've become a society where people don't walk anyplace, where kids are not allowed out, we are building for cars, and we are not building for pedestrians.

我认为这是每个城市规划委员会、每个城镇规划委员会都应该开始考虑的问题。

I think this is something that every city planning commission, every town planning commission ought to start taking this into account.

遗憾的是，由于没有孩子在户外玩耍，没有父母为此发声——因为他们希望孩子能在户外玩耍——规划委员会并没有考虑到这一点。

Unfortunately, because there aren't kids playing outdoors, because there aren't parents pushing for this, because they want their kids to play outdoors, planning committees are not taking that into account.

我认为这应该成为父母们的一项长期奋斗事业。

I think this is the kind of thing that should be a parent's crusade.

要知道，我们应该向镇政府施压，要求修建更多的人行道。

You know, let's put pressure on our town to build more sidewalks.

让我们在那些宽阔的街道上架设天桥，这样孩子们就能安全过街去公园了。

Let's make overpasses over those big streets so that kids can walk across the street to get to the park.

作为一个社区，我们已经不再把儿童的需求考虑在内了。

We're just not we're not as a community taking children into account anymore.

从这个角度看，我们已经变成了一个对儿童非常不友好的世界。

We've become a very child unfriendly world in that way.

听众茱莉亚提出了一个有趣的问题：孩子们需要多少时间的无组织游戏才能体验到其益处。

Listener Julia had an interesting question about how much time is needed for children to experience the benefits of unstructured play.

你好。

Hi there.

我是某户外科学营地的主任，负责接待前来参加活动的学生。

I am a director at a camp where we work with students who come out for outdoor science camp.

我们通常与这些学生相处两晚加大约两天半的时间，他们大多在四年级到六年级之间。

It tends to be two nights and about two and a half days that we're working with these students, and they're between the fourth and the sixth grade most of the time.

我的问题是，在这么短的时间内是否可能培养这种独立性和自主能力？还是说这种信任感和责任感的建立需要更长时间？

My question is, is it possible to encourage this kind of independence and, self reliance in a short time period, or is this something that requires time in order to develop that amount of trust and responsibility amongst a group?

换句话说，如果成年人与孩子相处的时间窗口相对较短，是否有可能给予孩子自由进行无结构游戏的空间？

So in other words, if an adult, has a relatively short window of time where they are interacting with a child, is it possible to give the child the latitude, for unstructured play?

或者这种情况通常只有在与孩子长期相处时才会自然发展？

Or is this something that typically develops only when you have extended amounts of time with the child?

对于游戏来说，关键不在于成年人与孩子相处的时间长短。

So the important thing for play is not the amount of time the adult has with the child.

重要的是孩子与其他孩子共处的时间有多少。

The important thing is how many much time the child has with other children.

游戏是发生在孩子之间的。

And play is between children.

当成年人参与时，这种活动就不算真正的游戏了——至少当成年人在发号施令、制定规则或控制局面时不是。

When an adult is involved, the play gets, is not true play because at least not if the adult is telling them what to do or deciding on the rules and controlling it.

因此，在营地活动、学校课间休息和午餐时间应该安排更多自由时间。

So there should be more time in camp, at school recesses, during lunch hour.

我们需要更多时间进行真正的游戏。

We need more time for real play.

我观察过波士顿小学的课间休息，只有短短十五分钟。

I've watched recesses in the Boston elementary schools that are just fifteen minutes long.

这么短的时间根本不够让孩子们真正投入游戏。

That's not enough time for children to really get something going to get.

他们需要比这更长的时间。

You need more time than that.

至少需要半小时才能让游戏真正开展起来，对吧。

At least half an hour, right, to get something going.

理想情况下，同一群孩子应该能持续多日一起玩耍，这样他们才能相互了解，熟悉彼此的游戏方式。

And ideally, the same children would be playing together over time, over days, so they get to know one another, learn one another's ways of playing.

这正是我们需要重新倡导的理念。

This is what we need to bring back.

从某种程度上说，我认为彼得你在这次对话以及我们之前的谈话中所指出的矛盾在于，你实际上是在建议父母某种程度上削弱他们在孩子生活中扮演的角色。

I mean, in some ways, I think the paradox that you're getting at in this conversation, Peter, and in our earlier conversation as well, is that you're really suggesting that parents sort of diminish the role that they are playing in their children's lives.

而且我认为出于各种原因，这可能会很困难。

And and I think that's potentially difficult for all manner of different reasons.

父母爱他们的孩子。

Parents love their children.

社会对父母有参与孩子生活的压力。

There are societal pressures for parents to get involved in their children's lives.

你知道，孩子们面临着巨大的压力，要做某些事情和参加某些活动才能进入好大学等等。

There are huge pressures, you know, for children to do certain things and certain activities to get into the right colleges, etcetera.

而你真正想说的是，你所描绘的整体图景是：如果孩子们更多地自我成长，而不是由父母来抚养，情况会更好。

And really what you're saying is that the overall picture that you're painting is that we would be better off if children were raising themselves a lot more than if parents were raising their children.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

你知道，我想向父母们推荐艾莉森·高普尼克写的一本书，叫《园丁与木匠》。

You know, one thing I would recommend to parents is is the book by Alison Gopnik called The Gardener and the Carpenter.

高普尼克是国内顶尖的发展心理学家之一，她研究儿童的认知发展、问题解决能力发展，并撰写了关于儿童惊人能力的著作。

Gopnik is one of the leading developmental psychologists in the country who studied cognitive development among children, problem solving development, and written about the amazing thing children could do.

但这本《园丁与木匠》是面向父母的。

But this book, The Gardener and the Carpenter, is oriented towards parents.

她在书中描述了两种截然不同的育儿方式。

And she describes there two contrasting styles of parenting.

园丁式教育法——显然是她推崇的方式——就是你播下种子，提供肥料，创造肥沃的土壤，然后让它自然生长。

The gardener approach, which is the approach obviously that she favors, is so you plant the seed, you provide the fertilizer, you provide the fertile ground, and you let it grow.

而木匠式教育则是试图按照你心中的形象来塑造这个'产品'，她指出木匠式教育最终总会失败。

The, carpenter style is you try to shape this product into some image that you have in mind and she points out that ultimately the carpenter style always fails.

你无法把孩子塑造成你想要的完美模样。

You can't shape your child into just what you want.

孩子有自己的特质，你必须让孩子自然成长。

Your child has characteristics that are your child's characteristics and you have to let your child grow.

只有孩子自己才知道真正热爱什么，你需要帮助孩子发现其真正热爱的事物，而不是强迫孩子去做你希望他做的事。

Only your child can know what your child really loves to do, and you have to help your child find what the child really loves to do rather than force your child to do what you would love to do.

你不能通过孩子来重活自己的人生。

You can't live your life over again in your child.

所以我认为这本书会对许多正为此困扰的家长非常有帮助。

So I think that book would be very helpful to a lot of parents who might be struggling with this.

彼得·格雷是波士顿学院的心理学家。

Peter Gray is a psychologist at Boston College.

他是《自由学习》的作者，该书阐述了释放玩耍本能如何让孩子更快乐、更自立，并成为终身优秀学习者。

He is the author of Free to Learn, Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play will make our children happier, more self reliant, and better students for life.

彼得，感谢你今天做客《隐藏大脑》节目。

Peter, thank you for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢邀请。

Thank you for having me.

非常荣幸。

It's been a pleasure.

《隐藏大脑》由Hidden Brain Media制作。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media.

我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·奎雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。

Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quirrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury.

塔拉·博伊尔是我们的执行制片人。

Tara Boyle is our executive producer.

我是Hidden Brain的执行编辑。

I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor.

如果你喜欢今天的节目或觉得它发人深省，请分享给可能也会感兴趣的父母、老师或朋友。

If you enjoyed today's episode or found it to be thought provoking, please share it with a parent, a teacher, or a friend who might find it interesting too.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。

I'm Shankar Vedantam.

下次见。

See you soon.