重塑意志之战

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。你是否曾对某个似乎永远不愿改变行为的人感到沮丧？你再次提醒伴侣不要把脏盘子留在水槽里。这样的对话你们已经有过多次。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Have you ever been frustrated with someone who never seems to change their behavior? You remind your partner, again, not to leave dirty dishes in the sink. You've had this conversation before.

也许你会对他们发火。也许你会翻个白眼然后自己动手。又或许你感到沮丧，干脆放弃。或者可能是你的孩子在杂货店里大发脾气，或是同事尽管被无数次提醒仍无法按时完成任务。无论我们提起多少次，尝试多少策略，都无法让他们改变。

Maybe you snap at them. Maybe you roll your eyes and do it yourself. Or maybe you get frustrated and throw up your hands. Or maybe it's your child who melts down in the middle of the grocery store or a coworker who fails to meet deadlines in spite of endless reminders. No matter how many times we bring it up or how many strategies we try, nothing gets them to change.

不久后，怨恨开始滋生。我们倾向于施加更大压力——更多提醒、更多规则、更多后果。我们告诉自己：他们一定是固执、叛逆、故意作对。本周《隐藏的大脑》将探讨研究，解释为何我们用来改变他人行为的方法往往效果惊人地差。

Before long, resentment sets in. The temptation is to push harder. More reminders, more rules, more consequences. We tell ourselves they must be stubborn, defiant, oppositional. This week on Hidden Brain, research that explains why the techniques we use to get people to change their behavior are often strikingly ineffective.

同时我们会寻找更好的方法，帮助我们在乎的人实现持久改变。当人们做出我们不愿看到的行为时，确实令人沮丧：朋友临时取消计划，吵闹的同事主导每场会议，孩子拒绝穿校服上学。

And we look at better ways to help the people we care about make lasting change. It can be frustrating when people do things we don't want them to. A friend cancels plans at the last minute. A loud coworker dominates every meeting. A child refuses to get dressed for school.

这些时刻我们脑海中闪过什么念头？我们的心态如何影响改变他人的能力？在哈佛医学院，心理学家斯图尔特·阿布隆研究帮助人们改变的科学。斯图尔特·阿布隆，欢迎来到《隐藏的大脑》。

What goes through our minds in those moments? And how do our mindsets affect our ability to influence others to change? At Harvard Medical School, psychologist Stuart Ablon studies the science of helping people change. Stuart Ablon, welcome to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢。很荣幸来到这里。感谢你的邀请。

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate you having me.

斯图尔特，你在高中最后一年开始对心理学产生兴趣。当时你从事了一份与儿童相关的工作。请谈谈你当时的工作内容。

Stuart, you first became interested in psychology during your senior year of high school. You got a job working with kids. Tell me about the work you were doing.

是的，在高中时期，我第一份比较严肃的工作是在一家儿童和青少年精神病住院部工作。这里是那些行为严重失控、有自残或伤害他人风险的孩子被强制收治的地方。我在那里实习，完全不知道会面临什么。记得第一天，我和其他员工在操场上监督孩子们，有个年轻人突然情绪失控，他看出我是新人，就对我说各种难听的话，还试图攻击我，朝我脸上吐口水，踢我的要害部位，我完全惊呆了。一位资深员工迅速过来解围，说‘让我示范这里该怎么处理’。

Yeah, in high school, one of my first, you know, more serious jobs was working on an inpatient psychiatry unit for kids and adolescents. So this is where kids and adolescents go when their behavior's really out of control, and they are at risk of hurting themself or someone else, and they're usually admitted against their will. And I had an internship there, really, and I had no idea what to expect. And I remember on my first day, I was supervising along with some other staff, kids out on the playground, and this young man started to get upset, really frustrated, and lose his cool, and he could tell I was the new person, and he said all kinds of awful things to me, and went to try to attack me, really, and he spat in my face, and he kicked me where you don't wanna be kicked, and I was incredibly taken aback. And one of the sort of more senior staff members approached quickly to rescue me, and he said, let me show you how this is done here.

他抓住那个年轻人，转身用我们称为‘身体约束’的方式抱住他，防止他吐口水或踢人之类的。这是我第一次接受如何在工作中实施身体约束的培训。

And he sort of grabbed this young man and wheeled him around and wrapped his arm around him in sort of like what we call a physical hold, a restraint, so that he couldn't spit at him or he couldn't kick him and things like that. This was my first on the job training about how to perform a physical restraint.

你当时应该才16、17岁吧，那孩子可能比你小不了多少。

I mean, you must have been 16 or 17 years old at the time, the kid couldn't have been much younger than you.

说得很对。我记不清是17岁还是刚满18岁。说实话，现在谈起这事我还会起鸡皮疙瘩，尽管讲过很多次，因为实在太糟糕了。

It's a very good point. I forget whether I was 17 or may have just turned 18. To be honest, I'm actually getting goosebumps talking about it, even though I've talked about it a lot, because it was awful.

那天晚上你回到家。第二天我了解到你又遇到了这个年轻人，他叫杰森。后来发生了什么？

So you head home that evening. The next day, I understand you run into this young man again. His name is Jason. What happens to it?

经过杰森房间时我特别警惕，也很紧张。他突然叫住我——其实我当时想快步走开避免接触，怕再出事——他喊我名字，我转身看他，他盯着我说‘嘿，对不起，我为说过的话道歉’。

I was particularly on guard as I passed by the room where Jason was and nervous. And he called out to me. I remember I was trying to walk by pretty swiftly, actually, so I wouldn't have to engage with him for fear of what might happen. And he called my name and I sort of turned around, and I looked at him, and he looked at me, and he said to me, Hey, I'm sorry. I'm sorry about what I said.

‘我真的不是故意的。我有时会那样失控，甚至不知道自己说了什么。’我看着他说‘好的，没关系，我接受你的道歉’。

I really didn't mean it. I just lose control like that, and I don't even know what I'm saying. And I just looked at him, and I said, okay. It's alright. I accept your apology.

没关系。

It's okay.

斯图尔特，那一刻你脑海中闪过了什么？因为在某些方面，这不仅仅是令人惊讶，我认为那一刻发生的事情也颇具启示性。

What went through your mind at that point, Stuart? Because in some ways, it was not just surprising, but I think in some ways it was also revelatory what happened that in that moment.

是的。再次回想当时的念头，尚卡尔，我只是复述这件事就情绪激动——因为你知道，这个孩子曾和我有过可怕的冲突，他对我说过那些恶毒的话，我刚到那里时就试图避开他。而他向我道歉了。显然这孩子对自己的行为深感懊悔，而这只是其中一个微小片段。我无法想象他究竟经历了什么才会被送进精神病住院部。

Yeah. What went through my mind again, I mean, just retelling this, Shankar, I'm I'm emotional just retelling it because, you know, this is this kid I had this horrific interaction with, and he said these awful things to me, and I was trying to avoid him as soon as I arrived. And he's apologized to me. Clearly, this kid deeply regretted his behavior, and this was just one tiny instance. I can only imagine what had gone on to get him to this inpatient psychiatry unit in the first place.

此刻他显然对自己的行为感到极度痛苦，正如他向我解释的那样，他根本无法控制这些行为。

And here he is clearly feeling terribly about this behavior, which, as he's explaining to me, you know, he just can't control.

后来你成为临床心理医生。几年后你在少管所采访另一个年轻人。说说这个故事吧，他是因为什么被关进来的？

So you eventually become a clinical psychologist. And some years later, you're interviewing another young man who is in a correctional facility. Tell me the story. What was he in for?

这个年轻人是因谋杀未遂入狱的。他开枪打伤了别人。要知道我当时几乎没有在惩教机构工作的经验。坦白说，虽然那时我已具备专业资质，但这次对话让我强烈想起当初和杰森的那次互动。我记得我们面对面坐在长凳上，距离近得能看清对方的脸。

So this young man was in for attempted murder. He had shot someone. And, you know, I had next to no experience working in correctional facilities. So it sort of, frankly, while I had the credentials at that point, it felt pretty similar to that interaction with Jason. And I remember sitting very close across a bench from him, so our faces were pretty close to each other.

我问他：'如果你不介意，能否告诉我当时你在想什么？' 我永远忘不了——他突然凑近对我说：'这是我这辈子听过最蠢的问题'。我有个优点是不太容易产生防御心理，所以回答他：'也许没错，这可能是你听过最蠢的问题。但你能告诉我为什么这个问题如此愚蠢吗？'

And I asked him, I said, you know, if you don't mind, would you mind telling me, like, you were thinking when you did this? And I'll never forget this because he leaned in real close to me, and he said to me, that is the stupidest question anybody's ever asked me. And one thing I can say about myself is I don't tend to be particularly defensive. So I said to him, you know, that might be right. That might be the stupidest question anybody's ever asked you, but do you mind telling me why that's such a stupid question?

他看着我，甚至更凑近了些，说道：‘你觉得如果我有脑子会干这种事吗，白痴？’而我当时心想，天啊，当然不会，这绝对是我听过最蠢的问题。他要是真有脑子怎么会这么做？对我来说，这是个重要时刻，让我真切回想起研究生时期学到的攻击性反应理论，以及主动性攻击与反应性攻击的区别。大多数人总认为极端暴力行为都是预谋行动，但其实绝大多数都是对挫折的糟糕应对，是缺乏深思熟虑的结果。

And he looked at me and he leaned in even closer and he said, do you think if I was thinking I would have done that, you moron? And I remember thinking to myself, God, yeah, of course, that is the stupidest questions anybody's ever asked. Because why would he do this if he were thinking? To me, that was an important moment and reminded me honestly of, know, in graduate school, learned about aggressive responses and the difference between proactive aggression and reactive aggression. And and most people think that horribly aggressive acts are like planned acts, where the vast majority of them are poor responses to frustration and not thinking things through.

多年前，我记得曾与几位在芝加哥做研究的研究人员交谈，其中有一位社会学家哈罗德·波洛克——

You know, many years ago, I remember speaking with some researchers who are doing work in Chicago, and there was this sociologist, Harold Pollock, at

来自芝加哥大学。他查阅了能找到的所有市内凶杀案卷宗，研究凶案诱因。他原本坚信凶杀案都是帮派预谋暴力所致，但发现结果与你所说的完全吻合，斯图尔特——都是因为互动失控，人们情绪爆发。

the University of Chicago. He looked through all the homicide cases that he could find in the city and then looked at what led to the homicide. And again, his belief was that homicides happen because of premeditated gang violence. But what he found was very much what you're talking about, Stuart, which is there were interactions that went wrong. People lost their tempers.

冲突升级。有人手边有枪，有人就中了弹。他反复发现：如果人们能停下来深呼吸数到十，可能就是平凡人生与终身监禁的天壤之别。

Things escalated. Someone had access to a gun, and someone got shot. And over and over, what he found was that if people could pause, take a deep breath, and count to 10, it could mean the difference between a regular life and spending the rest of your life in prison.

没错。这就是冲动控制。冲动控制的定义就是在行动前花几秒钟考虑行为可能带来的后果。我常对人说，要是没有这种能力，人类要是缺乏冲动控制，想到什么就立刻做、立刻说，这世界会变得多可怕。我常建议：想做小实验的话，可以试着想象自己一整天都言行不经大脑。

Yes. That's impulse control. Literally, the definition of impulse control is taking a few seconds to think about the likely consequences of your actions before you act. And I always tell people, you know, if we didn't have that, we humans, if we didn't have impulse control, if we just did the first thing that came to our mind, said the first thing that came to our mind, the world would be an ugly place. I usually tell people, if you want to do a little experiment, go through a day where you imagine you did or said the first thing that came to your mind throughout the course of the day.

你会觉得很有趣，但也会对这个世界可能的样子感到恐惧。

You'll amuse yourself, but you'll also be horrified about what the world would be like.

当人们做错事时，我们常归咎于他们本性恶劣、固执己见或不够努力。我们试图用奖惩制度矫正行为，或单纯鼓励他们再加把劲。稍后回来时，我们将从心理学角度探讨更好的解决方法。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When people do bad things, we often think it's because they are bad people, or they are being stubborn, or they are simply not trying hard enough. We attempt to help them fix this behavior through rewards and punishments, or we just encourage them to try harder. When we come back, a psychological insight into a better way. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。人们很容易认为我们的行为受动机驱使——想保持健康就去锻炼，想提高工作效率或学业成绩就少打游戏少看电视。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. It's easy to believe that our behavior is a matter of incentives. If I want to be healthy, I'll get some exercise. If I want to get more done at work or school, I'll stop playing video games or watching so much TV.

当人们以特定方式行事或行为不当时，我们总觉得这是他们主动选择的结果。哈佛医学院心理学家斯图尔特·阿布隆验证了这个观点的真实性。斯图尔特，你职业生涯早期曾与心理学家罗斯·格林共事，他当时正在开发治疗儿童行为问题的新方法。能谈谈你们的合作吗？

When people act in certain ways or misbehave in certain ways, we feel it's because those are choices they are making. At Harvard Medical School, psychologist Stuart Ablon has tested the veracity of this belief. Stuart, early in your career, you began working with the psychologist Ross Green. He was developing a new approach to treating children with behavior problems. Tell me a little bit about what you did together.

是的。我很幸运能在麻省总医院精神科进行博士后研究时遇到刚入职的他。他担任了我约一年的临床导师，之后我们共同工作了十年。他在撰写《暴怒儿童》时提出的观点，是基于数十年研究得出的：具有极端暴怒行为的儿童，其实是在神经认知技能（即思维能力）方面存在缺陷。用我的话说就是——这些孩子缺的是能力而非意愿。

Yes. I had the good fortune of coming for my postdoctoral fellowship at Mass General Hospital in the Department of Psychiatry there, and he was just getting started there as well. And he was my clinical supervisor for a year or so, and then we went on to work together for about ten years. And what he was writing about as he was writing this book, The Explosive Child, is decades of research that had shown that kids with very challenging explosive behavior, that they struggled in certain areas of what we call neurocognitive skill or thinking skills. And so he was putting these ideas out there that the way I talk about it is that these kids seem to lack skill rather than will.

这个发现颇具启发性，因为我们对问题行为的常规应对方式都基于一个假设：人们行为不当是由于缺乏改进动机，所以我们总试图激励他们表现得更好。

Which was a bit of a revelation when you think of how we tend to respond to challenging behavior, because it all revolves around trying to motivate people to behave better, safe in the assumption that the reason they're not behaving well is because they lack the motivation to do so.

我想深入探讨这个普遍存在的认知误区：当我们试图改变某人却未见成效时，总会下意识认为对方明知该怎么做、也认同这样做有益，却拒不执行——这显然就是缺乏意志力。

I want to drill down into this because I think this is such a pervasive belief, which is that when we're trying to change someone and they don't change, almost automatically the thought comes to our mind. This person knows what they need to do. They know what's going to be good for them to do. They've agreed that it's the good thing for them to do, and they're not doing it. Clearly, it's a lack of will.

完全正确。这种想法迅速占据我们脑海的主要原因在于：当别人不按我们的意愿行事时（无论是孩子、伴侣还是同事），都会引发强烈恼怒。而人在愤怒时，往往难以调动理性思维，反而会迅速诉诸强权控制来重建秩序。

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think one of the main reasons, though, that that thought kicks in for us so quickly is it's really aggravating when people don't do what we want them to do. Whether that's our child, our partner, our colleague, you name it, we get frustrated. And when we're frustrated, we humans don't tend to have as good access to the smart part of our brain. And frankly, we sort of reach very quickly for power and control to try to restabilize things.

我认为这背后还有长期形成的传统观念——人们总认为行为问题归根结底是动机问题。当他人违背我们的期望时，这种认知叠加挫败感就会形成触发机制。

So, you know, I think that's part of the reason. We've sort of long believed this. There's sort of a conventional wisdom around this that, you know, motivation, that behavior is all about motivation. But then you layer on top when people don't do what we want them to do or do things we don't want them to do, it frustrates us. It triggers us.

这让我们难以产生共情理解，甚至难以准确理解可能阻碍那个人的因素。

And that makes it hard for us to have an empathic understanding or even an accurate understanding about what might be getting in that person's way.

我也很好奇一个现象：当我们急于下结论时——我很赞同你刚才说的，某种程度上我们急于下结论是因为自己感到沮丧，而这个结论能帮我们处理挫败感，让我们觉得'好吧，这人就是明知故犯'。但一旦陷入这种思维，我们就把问题完全归咎于对方。某种程度上，我们是在放弃自己帮助对方的可能性，因为我们认为'这事已无计可施，问题全在对方'。

I'm also curious about the fact that I think when we reach for that very quick conclusion, and I appreciate what you just said, which is that we reach for the conclusion in some ways because we are upset, we are frustrated, and the conclusion in some ways helps us deal with our own frustration to say, Okay, this person is just not doing what they know is the right thing to do. But of course, once we get into that mindset, now we locate the problem entirely in the other person. And in some ways, we're doing is we're giving up our own capacity to potentially help them because we're saying it's no longer anything that we can do that would be helpful. The problem is entirely with this other person.

没错。问题不在我，而在他们。这正是很多指责产生的原因。我们某种程度上为自己开脱，让自己免责，然后把责任全推给对方。

That's right. It's not it's not about me. It's about them. And that's where a lot of blame happens. We sort of absolve ourselves, take ourselves off the hook, and we just blame the other person.

你提到的另一点让我想到：当你观察挑战性行为时，它从来都不是无缘无故发生的。人们不会毫无缘由地爆发或崩溃。总有诱因存在，有特定背景，有具体情境。

And, you know, the other thing that you're bringing up for me here is when you look at challenging behavior, you know, it doesn't ever happen out of the blue for no reason. People don't explode or implode for no reason. There's something that happens. There's some context. There's some situation.

总存在某个触发点。而且通常一个巴掌拍不响——包括你要求对方做什么、如何要求、以什么方式要求等等。所以这不只是简单的'对方有错'，但这种想法确实能让我们好受些。

There's some trigger. And often, it takes two to tango. It's what you're asking the person to do, how you're asking the person to do it, in what way, etcetera. So, you know, it's not just as simple as the other person's fault. But again, that can make us feel better.

我想探讨一些可能导致人们无法按我们期望的方式改变的技能缺陷。你作为临床心理学家有时会接触儿童案例。你曾有个青少年患者非常封闭，每次尝试交谈他都只会重复同一句话。讲讲这个叫斯图尔特的孩子吧。

I want to talk about some of the skills that might lead to people not being able to change in the way we would like them to change. You sometimes work with children in your practice as a clinical psychologist. You once had a teenage patient who was very hard, to get him to open up. Anytime you would try to engage with him in conversation, he would say the same thing over and over again. Tell me about this child, Stewart.

这个年轻人，

So this young man,

你知道吗，每当我真的想向他询问一些事情的信息时，比如学校里发生的一起事件，我想了解他的看法，听听他的说法。当我问他‘那你能告诉我发生了什么吗？’，他总会说‘我不在乎’，常常在我还没问完问题之前就这样。我说‘好吧，我只是有点好奇，如果你不介意的话，因为我想听听你的说法’。

you know, whenever I would really ask him for information about something, you know, for instance, there was something that happened at school, an incident, and I wanted his perspective on it, and get his side of the story. And when I would say to him, So can you tell me what happened? He would say, I don't care. Often before I even got a chance to finish my question. And I said, well, I'm just sort of curious if you don't mind, because I want to hear your side of the story.

如果你能在我说到一半时打断我。他说‘我不在乎’，而我说‘好吧，你可能不在乎，但我有点在乎。所以我希望能得到你的——’‘我不在乎’。我突然意识到，他是在迅速掐断对话，很多时候我甚至还没问完问题，更别说他可能有时间思考我在问什么了。我刚刚就这么对他说了。

If you can stop me in the middle. I don't give a And I said, well, you may not give a but I sort of do. So I would love to just get your I don't care. And it just occurred to me that like, he was sort of heading this off at the pass very quickly, and oftentimes I hadn't even finished my question, much less could he possibly have any have had any time to think about what I was asking him? I actually just said that to him.

我说‘你知道吗，我注意到你总是很快就说‘我不在乎’，快到你都没时间思考。能帮我个忙吗？让我问完问题，给你点时间思考？等你想了一会儿后，如果真不在乎，再告诉我，好吗？我会相信你，但给个机会’。

I said, You know, I just noticed you say I don't care really quickly, like before you even have time to think. So can you do me a favor? Like, can I ask you the question and I'm gonna give you a chance to think? And after you think about it for a while, if you really don't care, don't give a shit, then tell me that, okay? And I'll believe you, but give it a chance.

于是我问他同样的问题，并在心里默数到45。我等着数数，在30到45之间的某个时刻，他开始稍微告诉我发生了什么。我对他说‘等等，你之前说不在乎，但现在听起来你其实可能在乎’。他说‘是啊，刚说了’。我说‘哦，我注意到你经常这么说’。

And so I asked him the same question and I said to myself in my head, count to like 45. And so I waited and counted and somewhere past 30 before forty five, he started filling me in a little bit about what happened. And I said to him, So wait a sec, you told me you didn't care before, but it sounds like actually maybe you do. And he said, Yeah, just said that. I was like, oh, well, I've noticed you say that a lot.

‘你觉得为什么你会这样？’他说‘不知道’。我决定再试一次同样的事。但我们会先思考一下。因为如果你真不知道，那也没关系。

Why do you think you do that? And he's like, I don't know. And I decided let's do the same thing again. But we'll think about it for a sec. Because if you really don't know, that's okay.

‘我们可以一起想办法。但先想想，为什么当有人问你什么时，你总是说‘我不在乎’？我给你一分钟’。他说‘因为没人会等我足够久，直到我想清楚要说什么’。

We can try to figure it out together. But think about it. Why do you think when somebody asks you something, you just say, I don't I don't care. I'm gonna give you a minute. And he says, well, nobody's gonna wait long enough until I've thought about things, until I know what I'm gonna say.

‘所以，你知道，我不如现在就打住’。所以基本上，他说的‘我不在乎’就是在表示‘现在就结束吧，因为需要时间处理并组织语言表达出来’。

So, you know, I might as well just stop it now. So basically, what he was doing with I don't care. I don't give a was basically saying, let's call this off now because it's gonna take me a while to process this and come up with my thought and articulate it in spoken language.

你说这是语言和沟通技巧如何影响行为的例证。Stuart，请详细说说这一点。

So you say this is an example of how language and communication skills can influence behavior. Say more about this, Stuart.

语言和沟通能力确实至关重要。我常让人回想孩子们行为最糟糕的时期——就是他们频繁崩溃发脾气的时候，大家都说两三岁是可怕的叛逆期对吧？想想两岁孩子的情况。

Well, language and communication skills are just crucial. You know, I always tell people, think about a time when most kids are poorly behaved. You know, when they throw have a lot of meltdowns, throw a lot of fits, everybody says, oh, two or three, you know, the terrible twos. Right? And think about when kids are two.

他们有很多不擅长的领域，但我们并不担心，因为这些本就不是他们该掌握的技能。但他们极度固执、无法忍受挫折、解决问题能力极差。而解决问题能力差的重要原因之一，就是他们正在学习用语言沟通，所以你会看到他们用各种其他方式表达。随着他们逐渐学会识别困扰、用语言表述、通过对话解决问题，行为也会相应改善。而这位年轻人的实际情况是，他虽远超过两岁，但语言能力却未达到同龄人水平。

There's a bunch of things that they're really bad at, and we don't get worried yet because, you know, they're not supposed to be good at those things. But they are horribly inflexible, they can't tolerate frustration, and they have terrible problem solving skills. And one of the reasons they have terrible problem solving skills is they're just learning how to communicate with words, which is why you see them communicate in all kinds of other ways. But as they get better at knowing what's bothering them, putting it into words, engaging in a back and forth to try to solve a problem, their behavior improves as well. Now, the reality is with this young man, he was a lot older than two, but his language skills hadn't really caught up with the average kid his age.

这种滞后会以多种形式呈现。比如像这个孩子表现为脏话连篇，更多时候则表现为孩子或成人保持沉默。你要求他们做事时，他们只是安静地看着你。这时我们早先讨论过的问题就出现了——我们容易草率下结论并产生偏见。

You know, it can look lots of different ways. I mean, can look like a lot of swearing like this kid. A lot of times it looks like kids or adults who are silent. You might ask them to do something and they just sort of look at you quietly. And this is where what we talked about earlier comes in because that's when we jump to conclusions and we have these biases.

我们暗自揣测'他们拒绝回应'，可能认为他们在消极抵抗。但或许他们根本没有消极抵抗，只是在思考。

We think to ourselves, Oh, they're refusing to respond. Maybe we think they're being passive aggressive. Maybe they're not being passive aggressive. Maybe they're just thinking.

我们节目有个环节叫'听众答疑'。最近有位女士来信说：'我结婚大概五十年了，本应是和丈夫安享晚年的黄金时光，但每次我开启话题都会被他挡回来。他根本不愿交谈，每当我问起为什么我们无法好好沟通时...'

You know, we have a segment on the show called Your Questions Answered where we ask listeners to send in questions. And I remember a question that came in recently from this woman, and she said, you know, I've been married, I think, for fifty years, and I feel like I'm in my golden years now with my husband, but I feel like every time I start a conversation, he parries me. He basically blocks me. He doesn't want to engage in the conversation. Every time I bring up, you know, why is it that we're not having a good conversation?

他就会翻旧账打断我，之后再也不开口。我感觉自己被冷暴力对待，这种状态持续了无数年，觉得婚姻已经名存实亡，却不知如何是好。当然具体情况可能有所不同。

He blocks me off at the past. He doesn't talk to me again. And I feel like I'm being stonewalled. You know, I've been stonewalled for years and years and years, and I feel like I don't have a good relationship anymore, and I don't know what to do about it. But in some ways, of course, the specifics might be different.

我们不清楚那个特定家庭发生了什么。但我在某种程度上听到了与你刚才讲述的故事相似的回响，只是主角可能年轻了几十岁。

We don't know what's happening with that particular family. But I'm hearing echoes in some ways of the story you just told me with somebody who might be decades younger.

是的。这时我会告诉自己，尽量不要草率得出责备性的结论，而是考虑技能而非意愿。也许这个人只是不擅长参与这类对话，或许他们并非故意回避。另一种可能是，他们对这些对话存在合理顾虑，但不善于表达这些担忧，所以表现得像在回避。

Yes. And this is where I say to myself, try not to jump to conclusions that are blaming, and instead, think skill, not will. Think maybe this person has a hard time engaging those conversations. Maybe they're not stonewalling intentionally. And, you know, the other possibility is maybe they have some reasonable concerns about having these conversations, but they're not very good at expressing those concerns, so it comes out as stonewalling.

另一个能影响我们在情境中行为反应的能力是工作记忆。斯图尔特，请解释一下工作记忆的含义及其在此处的作用。

Another skill that can affect the way we behave and respond in situations is our working memory. Describe what you mean by working memory and how it plays a role here, Stuart.

当然。工作记忆不同于回忆几天前的午餐内容之类的事情。神经心理学家称之为'认知货架'——我们大脑中的这个货架可以临时存放信息，需要时随时取用。我们对工作记忆的依赖远超想象。就像我们现在进行的对话——

Sure. Working memory, you know, it's not like trying to remember what you had for lunch, you know, a couple of days ago or things like that. Working memory is what neuropsychologists call the cognitive shelf. The shelf we have in our brain, where we can put something up on that shelf, we can still see it, we can grab it when we need it, and we are much more reliant on our working memory than we have any idea. You know, I always tell people just having a conversation like we are right now.

对吧？比如我在说话时，你需要在倾听的同时思考：我对他的话有何看法？所以你同时保持着两个信息：他在说什么？以及我对这些话的想法？可能你还在思考该如何回应。

Right? Like, I'm talking, what you're hopefully doing is listening and thinking to yourself, what do I think about what he's saying? So you're holding one piece of information is what is he saying? Another piece is what am I thinking about what he's saying? Then hopefully you're also saying to yourself, I wonder how I might respond to what he's saying.

如果反应足够敏捷，你甚至会想：根据我对他的话的理解，我这样回应后他会如何反应？而与此同时，我的讲话并未停止。所以你需要在脑中同时保持所有这些信息的活跃状态。

And if you're really behaving in the most adaptive way, you're even saying to yourself, And I wonder how he'll respond to what I might say based upon what I think about what he's saying. And by the way, I haven't stopped talking at the same time. So you're holding all this information in your head, and you have to keep all those files open in your head at one time.

我经常注意到自己有这种情况：当我试图获取某个信息时，发现需要先找到另一个文件，结果在那个文件里又发现缺失内容或需要其他信息。突然就陷入三层嵌套的困境，还得记得如何回到最初要解决的问题。

I often notice this about myself. You know, I'm I'm trying to get something, and I say, okay. I need to get this piece of information, and this piece of information is in this other file over here. So I go to that file, but I realize there's something there that's missing or that I need something else in order to get that information. And now I'm suddenly three steps down the rabbit hole and I have to remember how to climb my way back to the problem I had in the first place.

而所有这些

And all of

都属于工作记忆。确实如此。你在这里还指出，工作记忆与涉及注意力和组织能力的其他技能密切相关。这就是为什么在研究工作记忆时，我们常将其与注意力技能归为一类——因为它们本质上相辅相成，共同构成了我们保持条理性的能力，这同样是一种技能。这些技能的高级术语就是我们所说的执行功能技能，可以说是大脑的CEO。

that is working memory. It is. And what you're also pointing out here is that working memory is incredibly closely related to other skills that have to do with attention and organization. And this is why when we study working memory, we often sort of lump it together with attentional skills, because those, they they sort of, go together and they all amount to our ability to stay organized as well, which is, again, a skill. And and the fancy term for some of these skills is what we call executive functioning skills, the sort of CEO of your brain, if you will.

所以当我们希望某人完成复杂任务时，比如让孩子在课堂上努力学习，实际上可能需要先掌握整套学习技能，才能真正理解课程内容。

So when we want someone to do something complex, you know, we want a kid to work hard in a class and study, for example, there might be a whole set of study skills that are involved before you can actually get to what the class is even about.

完全正确。要知道，我们常把这些能力视为理所当然。我辅导过的一个孩子，和许多同龄人一样房间总是乱糟糟的，父母气得总命令他去收拾。可你走进他房间时，地板上永远堆着成山的脏衣服。

You got it. Absolutely. And and, you know, we take these things for granted. A kid I worked with, his room was always a mess like many other kids, and his parents were furious and would tell him to go clean his room. And you'd go into his room, and there'd be heaps of laundry on the floor.

那地方简直像被炸弹炸过。而他总会走到书架上方的位置，开始擦拭顶层角落里的手办——明明把衣服扔进洗衣篮只需三秒钟，整个房间就能焕然一新。但这个孩子就是缺乏全局观和条理组织能力。

The place was, like looked like a bomb hit it. And he would go up to above his desk where he had some shelves, and he would start, like, dusting his action figures on the top corner of the shelf where where, you know, the the biggest bang for your buck would be take all the laundry and put it in the laundry basket. Take you three seconds. It'll whole place will look a lot better. But this kid, that you know, he had a hard time thinking big picture and organizing like that.

这本身就是一种技能。

And that's a skill.

我母亲常讲她高中或大学时的故事：当时她多门课程学习困难，过了好几个月大家才发现，原来是她近视加深导致看不清黑板。这种清晰视物的能力固然是基础技能，但从心理学角度来说，你讨论的情况正是其类比——当我们做不到某件事时，可能仅仅是因为能力缺失。

My mom used to tell me the story when she was, I think, in either high school or college, and she was having real trouble in various classes. And it took actually several months for people to realize that what was happening was she was developing myopia, and she simply couldn't see what was happening on the board. I mean, that's a very practical kind of skill that we need, the ability to see clearly. But in some ways, what you're talking about is the psychological analogy for that, which is that when we can't do something, it could be because we're simply not able to do it.

是的。用这个类比来说，如果你告诉一个看不见东西的人——比如我戴隐形眼镜时看不清小字——就算你给我世界上最大的激励，或者告诉我会有最严重的后果，如果我看不清，这些都没用。实际上反而会降低我的表现，因为明明更有动力却仍然做不到，这会让人极其沮丧。

Yes. And to to use that analogy, if you tell somebody who can't see something, like, you know, for instance, when I wear my contact lenses, I can't read very small print. You could offer me the biggest incentive in the world or tell me that I've got the biggest consequence coming. If I don't read it, it will not help. And in fact, it'll decrease my performance because it'll be incredibly frustrating to be more motivated but still unable to do it.

更不用说当你试图激励人们去做他们难以完成的事情时，你其实也在传递一个不太含蓄的信息：你认为他们不够努力。否则你为什么要激励他们呢？对于孩子们来说，我可以告诉你这已经对无数孩子的自尊心造成了巨大伤害。

Not to mention that when you try to motivate people to do things that they struggle to do, you know, you also send them the not so subtle message that you don't think they're trying hard enough. Or else why would you be trying to motivate them? And, you know, with kids, I can tell you that has caused so much damage to so many kids' self esteem.

某种程度上，我觉得当问题是身体上的问题时更容易被发现。对吧？换句话说，如果有人看不清黑板，你可以带他们去验光师那里。我可以给他们做测试，确认他们看不清黑板，然后提供解决方案等等。

I mean, in some ways, I think it's easier to see the problem when the problem is a physical problem of some kind. Right? So in other words, if someone can't see the board, you can say, can take them to the optometrist. I can give them a test. I can tell that they can't see the board, and here's the fix and so forth.

部分原因是你提到的这些技能更微妙且属于心理层面，不是立即能看到的。所以我们只能看到结果——比如孩子似乎不整理房间。

I think partly because some of these skills that you're talking about are subtler and they're psychological, they're not immediately visible. And so all we see is the outcome, which is the kid doesn't seem to be cleaning his room.

完全正确。但有趣的是，如果我们把100个有行为问题的人和100个没有的人带到我在麻省总医院的精神科部门，给他们做神经心理学评估测试——就像验光师检查视力一样。你猜会发现什么？你会发现有行为问题的人在技能上存在巨大差异，我们现在就开始探讨这些差异。

Absolutely. Absolutely. And yet, the interesting thing is, if we line up 100 people who struggle with their behavior and 100 people who don't, and I brought them back to our department of psychiatry here at Mass General Hospital where I work and gave them all neuropsychological evaluations, tests, just like an optometrist might test your eyes. Guess what you'll see? You'll see the people who struggle with their behavior have huge differences in skills, and we're starting to cover those now.

斯图尔特，你研究的另一个领域是情绪调节。谈谈这项技能吧。

One of the other areas you've looked at, Stuart, is emotion regulation. Talk about this skill.

情绪调节指的是我们控制或管理情绪的技能。关于人类我们知道的一点是：感受和思考之间存在某种负相关关系。当我们被感受淹没时，思考能力就会下降。感受是好的，它能告诉我们有哪些问题需要解决，但它本身并不擅长解决问题。

So emotion regulation, that refers to our skills at controlling or managing our emotions. And, you know, one of the things we know about us humans is that there's sort of like a negative correlation between feeling and thinking. That the more we're flooded by feeling, the less clearly we are able to think. Feeling is good. Feeling tells us when there's problems we need to solve, but it doesn't tend to solve problems.

我们需要思维能力。情绪调节技能是指我们能够抑制、管理或控制情绪反应，从而保持思维清晰的能力。这些情绪反应可能包括面对挫折、愤怒或失望时的反应，也可能是面对兴奋、喜悦、紧张或忧虑等情绪时的反应。这些都是可以培养的技能。

We need our thinking skills. Emotion regulation skills are our skills at being able to tamp down or manage or control our emotional response so that we can think straight. And that may be emotional response to frustration, to anger, to disappointment. It could be our emotional response to excitement, to to joy, nervousness, worry, etcetera. And those are skills.

谈谈那些属于社交领域的技能范畴——我们与他人的关系、妥善处理人际关系的能力、有效协商的能力。要把这些都视为技能。我认为很多人

Talk about the category of skills that fall into the domain of the social, our relationships with others, our ability to deal well with others, to negotiate well with others. Talk about this as being a skill. Again, I think many

会想当然地认为有些人天生具备这些能力，有些人则没有；有些人懂得如何与人相处，有些人则不懂。斯图尔特，请把这些都当作技能来讨论。

of us assume some people just have it, some people don't have it, some people know how to get along with others, some people don't. Talk about this as a skill, Stuart.

没错。我确实把这些称为社交思维能力。它们涵盖的范围很广，包括对某些人来说非常基础的技能，比如如何开启对话？或者当你看到一群人正在做某件事时，

Yes. Sure. And I refer to these as social thinking skills, really. And these are everything from, like, things that seem really basic for some people, like, how do you start a conversation with somebody? Or you see a group of people that you wanna join doing something.

如何在不打乱现有氛围的情况下融入他们？再到更复杂的技能，比如如何判断自己的言行给他人留下的印象？我称之为反馈循环——因为我们都极度依赖它。我们做出行为后，会观察并评估效果，然后相应调整自己的行为。

How do you join that group without sort of upsetting the apple cart? To more complicated skills, like how do you know how you're coming across or how your behavior is impacting somebody else? I call it your feedback loop because, you know, we're all hugely dependent on it. We all do things, and we scan and we see how did that go across. And we sort of change our behavior accordingly.

但我接触过许多反馈循环机制受损的人。他们无法从环境中获得有效反馈，因此可能持续做出令他人反感或不适的行为。我认为最复杂的社交思维能力包括观点采择（设身处地）和共情能力——共情可能是其中最复杂的社交思维技能。

But I've worked with lots of people who have a broken feedback loop. They they sort of don't get the feedback from the environment, so they might keep doing something that's annoying to other people or off putting. And, you know, I would say some of the most complicated thing social thinking skills are things like perspective taking, putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, and empathy. Empathy may be the most complicated social thinking skill.

所以你的核心观点之一是：人们做得好是因为有能力做好，而非仅仅因为有意愿做好。请谈谈这个区别。

So one of your central ideas is that people do well if they can do well, not if they want to do well. Talk about this distinction.

是的，当然。这某种程度上是我们工作的核心理念。我们过去传授、如今仍在践行的观念与哲学是：孩子能做到就会做好。推广到成人也一样，成人能做到就会做好。换言之，人能做到就会做好。

Yeah, sure. This is sort of the core foundational idea behind our work. The notion, the philosophy that we taught, which we still teach today, is kids do well if they can. Applied to adults, adults do well if they can. In other words, people do well if they can.

当人们说'能做到就会做好'时，其实是在表达：谁不想做好呢？你见过有人甘愿表现糟糕吗？我从没见过谁希望工作不顺、伴侣不满、父母或老师总是失望的人。没有。

What people do well if they can suggest is, you know what? Don't we all want to do well? Like, show me the person who prefers doing poorly in the world. I've never met that person who prefers that things are going poorly at work, who prefers their partner is upset with them, who prefers that their parents are are constantly or teachers are upset. No.

人能做到就会做好。只要有能力，他们自然就会做好。这与'人想做就会做好'形成鲜明对比——后者暗示若做得不好，必是意愿不足。而前者告诉我们：需要做的是帮他们获得能力。

People do well if they can. If they can, they will. Now, that's a stark contrast to the notion of people do well if they want to. Because what people do well if they want to suggests is if they're not doing well, it must be because they don't want to. What we need to do is make them want to.

如果真那么简单就好了。我的观点是：人能做到就会做好。若他们有能力，就一定会做好。若没做好，就该用过去五十年积累的经验，去识别阻碍他们的因素。

And, you know, if it only were as simple as that. My thought is people do well if they can. If they could, they would. And if they're not, let's use what we've learned in the last fifty years in terms of what might be getting in their way.

Stuart，我们对话给我的启示是：确实可能存在人们有能力却不愿做的情况，这可能是意愿问题。但若我们总归咎于意愿而非能力，就丧失了帮助他们的可能。听你描述这些技能时，我不禁联想到各种人际关系中希望改变的状况——现在我对这些事的看法完全不同了。

One of the things that I'm taking away from our conversation, Stuart, is that it's possible that there might be situations where, in fact, people, you know, can do something, but they don't want to do something. It's possible that in some ways it's a problem of will. But I think the problem that arises when we assume that it's a problem of will as opposed to a problem skill is it deprives us of our ability to do anything to help them. As you're talking and as you're describing these various skills, I'm thinking about various issues and various relationships that I have and people whom I know and and things that I would like see changed. And suddenly, I'm thinking about them differently.

我开始思考：能否帮助这人培养这项技能？而不是想着：怎么才能让这榆木脑袋开窍？这是截然不同的思维方式。

I'm thinking about them as saying, you know, what if I could help this person develop this skill? As opposed to, what if I could just get into this person's thick skull what they need to be doing? It's a very different mindset.

这是思维模式的巨大转变。正如你精妙阐述的，这让你站在更具共情力的理解者立场。而共情力正是帮助他人的基石。它使你远离指责与控制，进入不带评判的共情、接纳与关切状态——真正关注对方遭遇了什么。

It's a huge shift in thinking. And what it does, as you're articulating beautifully, is it positions you in a much more empathic, understanding place. And empathy is the bedrock of being able to help anyone. So, you know, instead of of blaming and wanting to control, it puts you in a solid place of nonjudgmental empathy, acceptance, and interest in what's going on for this person.

稍后回来时，我们将探讨如何通过注重技能培养而非意志较量来激发改变，这不仅适用于儿童，也适用于成年人。您正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, how to inspire change by focusing on skill building instead of battles of will, not just in children, but in grown ups too. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

当我们遇到不良行为时，本能反应往往是惩戒这种行为。我们试图通过奖惩手段强加意志，迫使行为改变。有时这有效，有时则不然。心理学家斯图尔特·阿布隆是《协作式问题解决如何改变家庭生活》一书的作者。

When we encounter bad behavior, our instinct is often to discipline the behavior. We try to impose our will using rewards and consequences to force the behavior change. Sometimes this works. Sometimes it doesn't. Psychologist Stuart Ablon is the author of the book How Collaborative Problem Solving Changes Lives at Home.

斯图尔特，你说我们用来改变人们行为的常规方法被你称为‘方案A’。请为我解释一下‘方案A’。

Stuart, you say the standard approach we use to change people's behavior is something you call Plan A. Define plan A for me.

当然。‘方案A’本质上就是试图强加你的意志，让别人按照你的意愿行事。无论是严厉还是温和的方式，只要核心是迫使对方服从，我们都称之为‘方案A’。理论上‘方案A’听起来不错，我是说如果——

Sure. Plan A is basically when you try to impose your will to make somebody do what you want them to do. So, you know, whether it's harshly, gently, anything in between, if you're really just trying to make that person do what you want them to do, we call that plan a. So plan a sounds pretty good on paper. I mean, if

你真的能让某人改变行为，而且这个行为确实令人恼火，那会有什么弊端呢？

you can actually get someone to change their behavior and this behavior is irritating, what's the downside?

这很有趣，因为无论是幼儿园教师、惩教机构警卫、警察、企业界人士，所有人都会说同样的话：强加意志虽然是为了实现预期目标，但往往不成功，常常会激化不良行为，无助于建立信任关系，问题也持续存在。如果对方本身缺乏某些技能，强加意志也无法帮助他们练习或培养这些技能。所以在讨论‘方案B’之前，我想先——

It's fascinating because whether you're talking to a preschool teacher, a correctional facility guard, a police officer, someone in the corporate world, you name it, people always say the same thing, which is that trying to impose your will is an attempt to get your expectations met, but often isn't successful, often escalates poor behavior, doesn't actually build any rapport or relationship, and the problem tends to live on. Also, if this is a person struggling with any skills, those skills don't get practiced or built when you try to impose your will as well. So before we get to plan b, I wanna shake things

稍微打破常规，请你先解释下你创建的框架中的‘方案C’是什么，斯图尔特。

up a little bit and have you tell me what plan c is in this rubric that you've created, Stuart.

当然。方案C是指你决定放弃自己的期望，或者按照对方希望的方式解决问题——这里需要特别澄清的是，这绝非‘屈服’，尽管人们常误以为如此。方案C不是屈服。屈服发生在你尝试方案A时，当你试图强加意志却失败后选择放弃。那才不是方案C。

Sure. Plan c is when you decide to drop your expectation or to solve the problem the way the other person wants it solved, which very important clarification here is not, quote, giving in because that's what people fear it is. It's not giving in. Giving in is when you try plan a, you try to impose your will, and you can't pull it off, you bail, and you sort of just give up. That's not plan C.

那是失败的方案A导致的放弃。方案C是有计划性的，是战略决策。你主动决定‘我暂时不追究这件事，至少现在不’。这可能不是永久放弃，只是当下选择妥协，或暂时按对方意愿处理问题。

That's failed plan A leading to bailing. Plan C is when you are planful. It's a strategic decision. You are deciding, I'm not going to pursue this, at least right now. Maybe not this is not forever, just for now I'm not going to, or I'm going to solve it for now the way the other person wants it solved.

这样做的目的是维持平静。方案C能减少对抗行为。当你放弃引发冲突的期望时，对抗行为自然减少。当然问题并未真正解决——你的期望未实现，但避免了正面冲突，这种策略有其适用场景。

And the reason you might do that is to keep the calm. Plan c can decrease challenging behavior. If you drop an expectation that leads to challenging behavior, you're gonna get less challenging behavior. Now you haven't solved the problem. You're you know, you haven't gotten your expectations met, but you've avoided a challenge, for instance, and there's a place for that.

是否存在比方案A或C更好的方法？

Is there a better way than either plan a or plan c?

当然。关键在于人们常常陷入我称之为‘AC分裂’的困境——无论是在家庭、学校还是职场。比如双亲家庭中，一方坚持方案A，一方倾向方案C。职场中同样存在这种分化。

Absolutely. And here's the thing. People so often get stuck, whether it's in a home, a school, a workplace, in what I call the AC split. In a two parent household, for instance, the AC split is one parent's the plan A parent, one parent's the plan C parent. But this happens in workplaces as well.

我想强调的是：方案B并非A和C的折中。确实存在第三种选择——方案B，即协作解决问题。通过共同寻找双方满意的解决方案，这套方法经过多年实践研究已形成清晰的指导框架。

And what I like to say is you don't get plan B by the average of A and C. And there is another option, and that's plan B. Plan B is collaborative problem solving. It is working together to solve a problem in mutually satisfactory ways, and it has a clear set of guideposts to it that have been refined over years of practice and study at this point.

这些指导框架具体是什么？

What are these guideposts to it?

基本上，有三个步骤，或者我更愿意称之为三个要素。明白吗？首先明确一点，你不能对某人使用备用方案。这是一个需要双方共同参与的过程，但它有明确的指引点，你可以随时与对方分享这些指引。这没有任何隐藏之处，整个过程都是透明的。

Basically, there's three steps, or I prefer to call them ingredients. Okay? And just to be clear at the outset, you can't use plan B on someone. This is a process that you do with someone, but it has clear guideposts, and feel free to share those guideposts with the person that you are doing this with. There's nothing hidden about this, this is transparent.

那么这三个指引要素分别是：第一要素是同理心要素。在这个阶段，你需要尝试理解对方的顾虑、视角、观点或处境中的困难。只有完成这第一个同理心要素后，你才能进入第二要素——分享你自己的顾虑、视角、观点或担忧。只有当双方的顾虑都摆在桌面上后，才能进入第三要素：邀请对方与你合作共同解决问题。双方的观点都必须得到呈现。

So the guideposts, these three ingredients are, first ingredient, the empathy ingredient. And that is where you try to understand the other person's concern, perspective, point of view, or what's hard about a situation. And only once you've done that, that first ingredient, the empathy ingredient, do you move to the second ingredient where you get to share your concern, your perspective, your point of view, or what you're worried about. And only once you have two sets of concerns on the table, do you go to the third ingredient where you invite that person to work together, to collaborate with you to solve the problem. You must have both parties' concerns on the table.

让我们更深入地探讨这三个步骤。当我们真诚询问某人他们的问题时——就像你对待那个之前一直拒绝沟通、总说'我不知道、我不在乎'的孩子那样——我认为这需要某种勇气。因为很多时候，我们可能并不真正想知道是什么阻碍了对方做我们希望他们做的事。我们不愿面对真正存在的问题和障碍。而你所说的同理心确实是非常关键的第一步。

Just to drill down a little bit deeper into each of these three steps, I think when we genuinely ask someone what their problem is, and you did that with with a kid who was basically shutting you off at the past and saying, I don't know, I don't care. When you genuinely ask that question, I think there's an element of courage that's required when you do this. Because I think very often, I'm not sure we actually want to know what's preventing someone from doing the thing that we want them to do. We don't want to know that there's a genuine problem, a genuine roadblock. And what you're saying is that that empathy is actually really an important first step.

完全正确。这里存在一个立场问题。当人们听到'同理心'这个词时，常常会产生误解。他们认为同理心就是表现出关心，比如通过说'我真的很想和你解决这个问题'来表达同理。

Absolutely. And there's a stance, Okay? You know, when people hear the word empathy, by the way, they often misunderstand it. They think empathy means to sort of show you care, and that you can empathize by saying, you know, I really want to work this out with you. Like, that's empathy.

这并非真正的同理心。如果非要定义，这更像是'路过式同理心'。但真正的同理心，这个词的定义是理解。你必须努力去理解他人的观点和立场。你说得对，有时候我们可能不喜欢即将听到的内容。

That's not empathy. If anything, it's like drive by empathy. But but real empathy, the definition of the word empathy is to understand. And you have to work hard to try to understand somebody else's point of view and perspective. And you're right, that sometimes we may not like what we're gonna hear.

这里有一个非常重要的启示：我不断提醒自己和他人，同理心并不意味着同意或不同意。同理心与立场无关，它仅仅是理解。事实上，信不信由你，你可以完全不同意某人的观点和立场，但依然通过理解来表达同理心。坦白说，我认为我们在这方面越来越退步——当你不认同某人时，你还能保持理解并倾听他们吗？

And there's a really important lesson in here, which is I'm constantly trying to remind myself and others that empathy doesn't mean to agree or to disagree. Empathy is not agreeing or disagreeing, it is simply understanding. Actually, believe it or not, you can completely and totally disagree with somebody's perspective and point of view, and you can still empathize by understanding. And frankly, I think this has become something that we've gotten worse and worse at, which is when you don't agree with somebody, can you still understand and listen to them?

让我们深入探讨你提出的第一点，斯图尔特，关于保持同理心和好奇心。你说即使在这个环节，实际上也包含多个要素。这些要素具体涉及哪些方面？

Let's just drill down a moment into that first point that you're making, Stuart, the the idea of being empathetic and curious. You say that even here, there are actually multiple elements to this to this prong. What do they involve?

正如我之前提到的，共情确实很难。它并非人们想象的那样。共情就是理解，而这真的很难做到。我有幸观察过许多地方的人们尝试协作解决问题的过程，而第一个要素总是最难的。所以我开始收集所有这些人们尝试协作解决问题的音频、视频记录，专门研究第一个要素，当然也包括我自己的尝试。

Well, you know, as I mentioned, empathy is is hard. It's not what people think it is. Empathy is understanding, and it's really hard for people to do. And I've had the opportunity to watch so many people in so many different places try to do collaborative problem solving, and the first ingredient is the hardest. And so what I did is I actually started to take all these recordings, audio, video recordings, of all these attempts that people made at doing collaborative problem solving and just studying the first ingredient, and of course, my own attempts as well.

我发现一个有趣的现象：当共情顺利进行时，我们其实只做四件事。就像优秀侦探那样，第一是提出大量问题——澄清性问题。如果获取不到信息，就进行有根据的猜测，这是第二件事。无论对方是回答你的问题还是回应你的猜测，第三件事是用自己的语言复述你听到的内容。

And what I found is fascinating that when it goes well, when we're doing a good job empathizing, we're doing four things and four things only. These four things are, like any good detective would, asking a lot of questions, clarifying questions. If you're not getting information, educated guessing. That's the second thing. If you get any information, either in response to your question or in response to an educated guess, you reflect back in your own words what you've heard from the person.

我们称之为反射性倾听。明白吗？这能证明你在倾听。而第四件事就是安抚。

We call that reflective listening. Okay? And that shows you're listening. Okay? And the fourth thing is reassurance.

明白吗？安抚就是向对方表明'这不是A计划的变相套路'。比如你可以说'别担心，你没惹麻烦'，或者'我只是想理解你'，或者我最爱用的'我知道你这么做肯定有重要原因...（此处填空）'。

Okay? What reassurance is, is your way of saying this is not some tricky form of plan A. So it's you saying things like, Don't worry, you're not in trouble. Or I'm just trying to understand. Or one of my personal favorites, I know there must be an important reason that Fill in the blank.

因为我常提醒自己：我可能不认同对方的行为，但他们必定有正当的理由、合理的顾虑或独特的视角——这才是你要探寻的。最后我想说，你必须保持好奇的姿态。人们太容易带着先入为主的观念进入对话了。

Okay? Because what I always remind myself is I may not love the person's behavior, but I'm sure they've got a good reason, a good concern, a good perspective. That's what you're on the hunt for. And the last thing I would say about this is your stance should be one of curiosity. It is way too easy to enter a conversation with preconceived notions and judgments.

放下这些成见，多提问、多推测、复述你听到的内容、必要时给予安抚——这样你会收获良多。

Suspend those, ask questions, take guesses, reflect what you've heard, reassure if necessary, and you'll learn a lot.

所以你刚才建议的第二步是：当你完成必要的共情、试图理解对方立场后，再提出自己的观点。但我能预见到这可能适得其反，Stuart。我仔细倾听你，保持耐心，真心好奇。

So the second step that you suggested a second ago is that once you've done the necessary empathizing, you've tried to understand where the other person is coming from, you put your own perspective on the table. But I can see how this might backfire, Stuart. I listen to you very carefully. I'm patient. I'm genuinely curious.

我试图理解你的立场。一旦理解了，我会说：好的，这都没问题，但这是我的看法。这样会不会有问题？

I try and understand where you're coming from. And once I've understood it, I say, all right, that's all well and good, but here's what I think. Could that be a problem?

是的，可能有问题。我首先建议稍微调整措辞，不是说有什么神奇词汇。但'但是'这个词几乎暗示着：好吧，我听到你说的了，但猜怎么着？我的观点与你不同或更重要。

Yeah. It could be a problem. And the first thing I'm gonna suggest is a little tweak in wording, not that there's magic words out there. But the word but almost sort of implies, okay, I heard you, but guess what? My perspective is different or more important than yours.

我总是鼓励人们这样做：听完对方的话后，先总结你听到的内容以表明你真的理解了，然后用'而且'替代'但是'。接着说：而且，这是我的观点/顾虑/看法。当然对方可能会因此生气或让谈话偏离正轨。但你知道这说明了什么吗？

I always encourage people to say, you know, once you've heard the other person out, first of all, summarize what you've heard from them so that you really are are showing you've heard it, and then use the word and instead. And just say, and, you know, my here's my point of view, or here's my concern, or my perspective. Now what you're saying is the person might get upset with that or or sort of, you know, it might go off the rails a little bit. Yes. And guess what that would tell you?

这说明对方可能在换位思考或情绪调节方面有困难，或者他们经历过太多'方案A'式对话，认为你听完后就会抛出方案A。这不是魔法，需要多次重复练习。

That this person may have some difficulty with perspective taking or emotion regulation skills, or they may have just had a lot of plan A interactions and assume that right after you've heard them, here comes plan A. So, you know, it's not magic. It's gonna take some repetition.

重申一下，协作解决问题有三个关键步骤：首先共情对方的顾虑；理解对方立场并获得确认后，说出'而且这是我的观点/顾虑'；到第三步共同制定解决方案时，斯图尔特强调不要先出招很重要。

Again, collaborative problem solving has three big steps. First, empathize with the other party's concerns. Once you've understood where they're coming from and they agree you have understood their point of view, you say, and here's my perspective. Here are my concerns. When it comes to the third step, which is coming up with a collaborative solution, Stuart says it's important not to make the first move.

当双方明确待解决的问题（即确认各自顾虑后），有充分理由邀请对方先提出解决方案：这能赋予对方自主权和参与感，让他们成为方案的共同制定者而非被动接受者——即使你怀着最大诚意先提议，也可能让对方感觉被强加。而共同制定的方案会获得更高投入度。此外，这也是观察对方解决问题能力的机会：看其能否提出理论上双方满意、切实可行的方案。

Once you've clarified the problem to solve, which is once you've identified the respective concerns, there's a lot of reasons you want to invite the other person to take first crack at solutions. First of all, when you invite that person to come up with an idea, you are giving them ownership, autonomy. You know, they they are co author of a solution as opposed to you sort of even if you're trying to do it in the best of collaborative spirits, if you're the one suggesting the first solution, it might feel imposed upon them. And if they're co authored, they're gonna be much more invested in that. But beyond that, you know, this is an opportunity to actually get a chance to see how that person does, what their skills are like coming up with a solution that is theoretically mutually satisfactory, realistic, and doable.

我接触过很多人，他们提出的方案要么缺乏互惠性，要么不切实际或难以执行。这些人需要练习——而培养这种技能的方式是什么？不是看别人解决问题。就像教孩子骑车时，你会自己骑上车说'看我怎么骑'吗？

I work with lots of people who they'll come up with a solution, but it's not mutually satisfactory, or it's not realistic, or it's not doable. And so they need practice. Well, guess how you're going to practice and develop that skill? Not by watching somebody else solve problems. I mean, when you teach a kid to ride a bike, do you hop on the bike and say, all right, watch me ride.

明白了吗？给你。你现在应该没问题了。不，看着别人想出主意并不能帮助某人练习和培养解决问题的能力。

You got it? Here you go. You should be good now. No. Watching someone else come up with ideas doesn't help somebody practice and develop problem solving skills.

斯图尔特，我认为有些人可能会听到这种方法后说，好吧，这实际上可能是一种巧妙的方式，用来操纵另一个人去做我真正想让他们做的事。所以我非常仔细地倾听他们，提供我的观点，让他们自己想出主意。而自始至终，我都试图记住我最终想要的是什么，我最终想要的结果，并试图推动和引导以达到那个结果。

I think some people might hear this approach, Stuart, and say, all right, this is actually perhaps a clever way into manipulating this other person to doing what I really want them to do. So I listen to them very carefully. I offer them my perspective. I let them come up with the idea. And all the while, I'm trying to keep in mind what it is that I finally want, the outcome that I finally want, and try and push and nudge to get to that outcome.

这更像是一种狡猾的心理手段，来达到我最初想要的目的。我认为你实际上是在建议一些不同的东西，事实上，协作解决问题不仅仅是暗中操纵某人以达到你一直想要的目的的后门方式。

It's just sort of a sneaky psychological way of getting to what I want in the first place. I think you're actually suggesting something different, that in fact collaborative problem solving is not just a backdoor way into manipulating someone to get what you want all along.

完全不是。事实上，我会称那个狡猾的计划为计划A，而不是计划B。因为这里一个非常重要的区别是，你实际上不应该知道解决方案会是什么。如果你已经知道解决方案是什么，而你只是试图让那个人达到那里，是的，那就是计划A。那只是计划A的一种狡猾形式。

Not at all. In fact, I would call that tricky plan a, not plan B. Because what a really important distinction here is you actually shouldn't know what the solution is going to be. If you already know what the solution is and you're just trying to get the person there, yeah, that's plan A. That's just a tricky form of plan A.

现在你需要做的是，你需要考虑你的担忧是什么？你在担心什么？你的观点是什么？是什么让你想出那个解决方案？你在担心什么？

Now what you need to do is you need to think of what is your concern? What are you worried about? What's your point of view? What is wanting you to come up with that solution? What are you worried about?

你要紧紧抓住这一点。不要放弃它。而解决方案必须解决你的担忧。但它也必须解决另一方的担忧。这就是区别。

And you hold on tight to that. You don't relinquish that. And the solution has to address your concern. But it also has to address the other party's concern. That's the difference.

这就是协作解决问题。

That's collaborative problem solving.

当然，斯图尔特，这一切部分指向的是谦逊。因为我认为很多时候，当我们试图改变他人时，我们总是过于自信地认为自己知道他们为何没有做应该做的事。我们如此确信自己知道他们该做什么以及该如何做，以至于我们从未真正停下来问：你心里到底在想什么？你的脑海中可能正在发生什么？

And of course, partly what all of this is pointing to, Stuart, is humility. Because I think very often, I think when we're trying to change someone, we are so confident that we know why they're not doing what they should be doing. We're so confident that we know what they should be doing and how they should be doing it. That one reason we don't stop to actually ask, Well, what's going on in your head? What could be happening in your mind?

这是因为我们缺乏谦逊去接受一个事实：我们自己可能并不掌握所有答案。

Is that we don't have the humility to accept that, in fact, we might not have all the answers ourselves.

没错，正是如此。当我们能放下这些假设并保持真正的好奇心时，我们会学到很多。不仅如此，这还能让我们与他人建立真正的联系。人们经常问我这个问题。

That's right. That's right. And when we can suspend those assumptions and be really curious, we learn so much. And not only do we learn so much, but it really connects us to people. People ask me that all the time.

他们会问：怎样才能真正让别人听你说话？我的回答是：通过倾听他们。认真、专注、高效地倾听，他们自然会更愿意听你说。

They say, how do you really get somebody to listen to you? And I say, by listening to them. Listen to them really hard, really well, really effectively, and they'll be a whole lot more likely to listen to you.

稍后回来时，我们将探讨协作式问题解决的实践案例。您正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, collaborative problem solving in action. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

无论是难以管教的孩子、总是忘记重要日子的配偶，还是在会议上说错话的同事，想要让他人按你期望的方式行事总是很难。心理学家斯图尔特·阿布隆提出的解决方案是协作式问题解决——共同达成双方都认可的解决方案。他曾在一家州立精神病院验证这个理念，该医院因作为虐待患者题材电影《飞越疯人院》的取景地而臭名昭著。

Whether it's an unruly child, a spouse who forgets important dates, or a coworker who says inappropriate things at meetings, it can be hard to get people to behave the way you want them to. Psychologist Stuart Ablon says the solution is collaborative problem solving, coming to mutually agreeable solutions together. One of the places he tested his ideas was a state psychiatric hospital. It was infamous because it was the setting for a disturbing movie about the mistreatment of patients.

我常告诉人们：俄勒冈州立医院——我问人们知道吗？大家都说不知道。但其实你们都知道，因为它正是《飞越疯人院》的拍摄地。如今那座旧医院已被拆除，取而代之的是一座宏伟的新院区。

I always tell people, the Oregon State Hospital, I ask people, do you know it? Everybody says no. And I said, well, actually, you do because it was featured in one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Now, that original hospital has been torn down. There's a beautiful, big, hulking new hospital.

但我必须告诉你，在那里待过一段时间后，感觉过去的创伤仿佛仍在墙间回荡。我们被联系是因为工作人员遭受袭击的频率高得惊人，患者、客户以及员工都受到各种伤害。我记得有一次，工作人员甚至创建了一个Facebook页面，发布他们受伤的照片，试图让人们注意到这里确实存在严重问题。后来我们被请来尝试改变这种局面。

But I have to tell you from having spent some time there, sort of traumas of the past almost echo through the walls there. And we were contacted because staff were being assaulted at alarming rates and all kinds of injuries of their patients, the clients there, and the staff as well. I remember at one point, the staff had actually set up a a Facebook page to to post the pictures of their injuries to try to get people to pay attention to that something was really wrong here. Wow. And we were brought in to try to, change that dynamic.

所以当你

So when you

称之为医院时，我脑海中浮现的是医生护士来回走动、人们拿着病历的画面。但这并不完全符合实际情况，对吧，斯图尔特？

call this a hospital, you know, the image that I have is sort of doctors and nurses walking around and people holding charts. That's not quite the right picture, is it, Stuart? No.

这是一家州立精神病院，收治了一千多名患者，但其中绝大多数人若非精神失常本应被判有罪。他们因犯下相当严重的罪行而被关押在此。这里介于你想象中的医院和更像矫正机构之间。进入需要经过多道电子门禁，属于最高安全级别。

This is a state psychiatric hospital, with over a thousand, patients, but the vast majority of them are, guilt guilty if not for insanity. So, they are there for having, committed rather serious crimes. And, you know, it's it's somewhere between what you might think of as a hospital, but probably closer to what a correctional facility looks like. You know, you you've gotta be buzzed in and out of several doors to get in there. It's maximum security.

洗手间里固定着无法拆卸的马桶，防止被拆下当作武器使用。那是个相当严酷的地方。

You know, the restrooms have a fixed toilet with nothing that could be ripped off and used as a weapon or anything like that. It's a pretty tough place.

医院希望改善条件。我原以为在这种地方推行协作式问题解决会非常困难。请描述一下你们的具体工作和发现。

So the hospital wanted to improve conditions. I would have imagined that this would be a difficult place to think about collaborative problem solving. Describe for me the work that you did and what you found.

你说得对，这确实曾是个棘手的场所。但我必须说，我发现那里的人们表现出相当程度的接纳意愿，因为在那种环境下工作的人最清楚，奖惩措施效果有限，只会滋生敌意让工作变得痛苦。他们渴望学习新方法，但也带着合理的怀疑态度。所以让人们真正开始转变思维需要时间，毕竟你不能刚来就强行灌输新的工作方式。

Well, you're right. It it it is a difficult place, was a difficult place. But I have to say, I found a decent amount of receptivity there from folks because, you know, it's people who work in those situations that know firsthand that levying rewards and punishments really is not very effective and creates all kinds of hostility and makes for a pretty miserable job. So they were eager to learn something else, but I will also say skeptical and for good reason. And so it took a little while to really have people begin to shift their mindsets because you can't come right in and just teach people a new way of doing things.

首先你需要帮助他们理解为何要采取不同的做法，这涉及到观念的转变——不是简单的‘只要人们愿意就能做好，我们只需让他们愿意’，而是‘只要人们有能力就能做好’。大量研究表明，这些人之所以如此，是因为他们缺乏技能而非意愿。

You first have to help them understand why would you do something differently in the first place, and that's that shift from it's not as simple as people do well if they want to, we just gotta make them want to. It's people do well if they can. And we have a lot of research that shows these people are here because they're struggling with a lack of skill, not a lack of will.

那么你讲述了一位有精神分裂症病史的中年患者的故事。斯图尔特，给我讲讲他的故事。

So you tell the story of one middle aged patient who suffered from a history of schizophrenia. Tell me his story, Stuart.

这名男子一直拒绝参加项目中所有的治疗环节。患者们通常待在牢房区，但会前往所谓的‘治疗商场’接受个体和团体治疗。而这个人拒绝前往。你可以想象他们通常的应对方式——采用A计划强行施压：‘如果你不来，就会失去某些特权’等等。

This was a man who had actually been refusing to attend any of the therapeutic elements of the program. So they would, you know, the patients would stay in their cell blocks, but they would come down to what they called the treatment mall to have individual and group therapy. And this guy would refuse to come down there. Now you can imagine what they would typically try. They would typically try some form of plan a to try to impose their will to get him down there, which is if you don't come, you will lose this privilege, etcetera.

如果配合就能获得特权。信不信由你，这家医院从建筑到制度都是基于这套奖惩原则设计的，甚至设有专门供患者积累奖励的商店。他们尝试过这种方法，但结果相当糟糕。

If you do, you get these privileges. Believe it or not, the the hospital itself was designed around these principles. Even the building. The building has a store that was built where where people could, you know, accrue rewards and things like that. So they had tried this, and frankly, it got ugly.

在试图强制这名体型魁梧的男子前往治疗商场时发生了多起冲突事件。于是他们转为C计划：‘算了，不值得这样折腾，就随他去吧’。这时我们开始教他们什么是替代方案——B计划（协作解决问题）。有位护士决定对他试行B计划。

There were several assaults trying to get this rather large man to down to the treatment mall. And so what they started to do was plan c, which is say, you know what? It's just not worth all of this, so, you know, I guess he won't attend. And we began to teach them what an alternative would look like, what plan b, collaborative problem solving, would look like. And this one nurse decided to try plan b with him.

这里需要区分‘紧急协作解决问题’和‘主动协作解决问题’——最佳解决时机不是在冲突爆发时。所以她没有在强迫他去治疗商场时行动，而是坐下来对他说：‘我注意到你一直没参加团体活动’。

And by the way, one important distinction here is there's a difference between what I like to call emergency collaborative problem solving and proactive collaborative problem solving. The best time to solve a problem is not right in the middle of it. So it's not when you're trying to force this guy to to to go to the treatment mall. So she sits down with him and says, hey. So I've noticed you haven't, you know, been going to groups.

她知道他情绪极不稳定，于是预先给予安抚：‘别担心，我不会强迫你去参加。这次谈话目的不是这个。’本质上是在告诉他：‘这不是A计划’。

And she knew he was very volatile, so she front loaded with reassurance. Don't worry. I'm not gonna try to force you to go to group. That's not what this conversation is about. Basically, saying to him, this is not plan a.

我只是想弄明白。我猜你一定有很好的理由不去。能告诉我吗？当然，他还以为这是原计划A。他会怎么做？

I just wanna understand. I'm just I bet you have a really good reason why you're not going. Can can you tell me? And, of course, he thinks this is still plan a. What does he do?

他说，你不会逼我去的。你试试看。你没法强迫我。她立刻转向反思性倾听。我不会去的。

He says, you're not gonna make me go. You just try. You're not gonna make me. She goes right to reflective listening. I'm not going to.

你说得完全正确。我不会强迫你。好吗？我确信你有充分的理由不去，再次给予保证。我只是好奇。

You're absolutely right. I'm not going to. Okay? And I'm sure you have a good reason why you're not going, more reassurance. And I'm just curious.

我打赌有个好理由。我在想你是否能帮我理解。他说，我才不要去和一群人挤在小房间里。她立刻转向反思性倾听。作为优秀侦探，任何时候听到线索都要先反思性倾听，然后继续挖掘。

I bet there's a good reason. I just wonder if you could help me understand. And he said, I'm not going and sit in some little room with a bunch of people. She goes right to reflective listening. Anytime you hear something as a good detective, go to reflective listening, and then look for more.

于是她说，所以你不想和一群人待在狭小房间里？为什么呢？因为我绝不会去。你没法逼我。你说得完全正确。

So she says, so you don't wanna go sit in a room with a a bunch of people, a small room? How come? Because I'm not gonna do it. You're not gonna make me. You're absolutely right.

我不会强迫你。我只是想理解，听起来好像是对和一群人待在密闭空间有顾虑。是啊。因为他们能听到我的每个想法。哦，他们能听到你的每个想法？

I'm not gonna make you. I just wanna understand, and sounds like there's something about being in a small room with with people. Yeah. Because they can hear my every thought. Oh, they can hear your every thought.

顺便说，这是个很好的例子——你无需认同对方观点也能理解其想法。只需进行反思性倾听。他们能听到你的每个想法。为什么这么说？因为从我大脑发出的脑电波。

And this, by way, is a good example of you don't have to agree with what the person is saying to understand it. Just go to reflective listening. They can hear your every thought. How how come? Because of the brain waves that are coming out of my brain.

这是一位患有偏执型精神分裂症的活跃妄想症患者，他坚信FBI在他脑中植入了信息，并且其他人能听到这些信息等等。这位护士展现了最佳的共情能力，她说‘哇，所以你是说当人们靠近你时，他们能听到你的每一个想法？所以你不想去治疗中心的商场，坐在小房间里让所有人都能听到你的所思所想？’而病人回答‘是啊，你愿意让所有人听到你的想法吗？’

And this is an actively delusional person with paranoid schizophrenia who has a delusion that actually the FBI has planted information in his head and that other people can hear the information and things like that. And this nurse does the best job of empathizing because what she says is, oh, wow. So you're saying when people are close to you, they can hear your every thought. And so you don't wanna go down into the therapy, the treatment mall and sit in a small room where everybody could hear everything you're thinking? And the guy's like, yeah, would you want everybody hearing what you're thinking?

她立即回答‘绝对不愿意’。她不必认同，但现在她理解了他的立场。由于被理解，病人开始情绪稳定。这是第一个要素。在总结后，她转向第二个要素。

And she says, absolutely not. So she doesn't have to agree, but now she's understanding where he's coming from. And he's beginning to regulate because she's understanding him. That's ingredient one. She moves on to ingredient two after summarizing.

‘听起来你不想去治疗中心商场是因为不希望别人听到你的每一个想法，这我完全理解。我也不希望别人知道我的所有想法。’她没有用‘但是’，而是说‘我只是担心你会错过所有治疗的机会’。病人以为她要强硬执行方案A，于是他说‘你不能强迫我去’。她立刻给予安抚。

So it sounds like you're not wanting to go down to the treatment mall because you don't want everybody to hear your every thought, which I can totally understand. I wouldn't want everybody to hear my every thought And, not but, she says, And I guess I just worried that then you don't get to participate and benefit from any of the treatment. He thinks she's about to go plan A, so what does he do? He says, You're not gonna make me go. She goes right back with a little reassurance.

‘你说得对，我不会强迫你去。那样太蠢了。我为什么要强迫你去一个你说所有人都能听到你想法的地方？那听起来太可怕了。’

You're absolutely right. I'm not gonna force you to go. That would be dumb. Why would I wanna force you to go somewhere where you say everybody can hear your every thought? That sounds terrible.

‘我不想逼你这样做。我只是担心你无法从治疗中受益。’双方诉求都已摆上台面，准备进入第三个要素。‘我在想是否有办法既能让你参加治疗小组，又不用担心别人听到你的想法——毕竟那确实很可怕。’然后就像我们教的那样，请他先提出解决方案。

I don't wanna make you do that. I'm just worried that you're not able to benefit from the treatment. Two sets of concerns on the table, ready to go to the third ingredient. So I wonder if there's a way that you could benefit from the treatment groups and not have to worry about anybody hearing your every thought because that sounds terrible. And then just what we said, ask him to take first crack at a solution.

‘你有什么建议吗？’她稍作等待后，他说‘我有个主意’。‘什么主意？’‘我可以把锡纸包在头上。’她完全按照我们教导的方式回应：‘这是个主意。’

Do you have any ideas what we could do? She waits a little bit and he says, I got an idea. What's your idea? I could put tinfoil on my head. And she does just what we teach people to do, which is to respond to any idea by saying, that's an idea.

‘我们一起来想想。你把锡纸包在头上，这样能阻挡脑电波？’‘对，这样他们就听不到我在想什么了。’

Let's think about it together. So you put tinfoil on your head. Would, like, help with the brainwaves. Yeah. That would block them so nobody could hear what I was saying.

嗯哼。那你接下来会去参加小组活动吗？如果有效的话，是的，我会去。你觉得我们能那样做吗？他说，我看到你厨房里有锡纸。

Uh-huh. So you would then go to the group? Well, if it worked, yeah, I would go. Well, and do you think we could do that? And he's like, I've seen the tinfoil you have in the kitchen.

这会引起什么问题吗？我不这么认为。她说，我有点担心其他人可能会觉得这有点奇怪，或者会取笑你之类的。他笑着说，不会的。不会。

And would it cause any problems? I don't think so. And she says, well, I'm a little worried about the other folks might think it's a little odd or, you know, make fun of you or something like that. And he laughs and he says, no. No.

不，不，不。我不会直接把锡纸戴在头上。我们可以把它放在我头上，但我会戴上我的无檐帽，这样只有你我知道下面有锡纸。

No. No. No. I'm not gonna just have the tinfoil on my head. We can put it like on my head, but then I'll put my beanie on so only you and I will know that it's under there.

你看，问题就这样解决了。你得到了什么？一个让所有人都赢的解决方案。谁输了？

And, you know, there you have it. What do you have? You have a solution where who wins there? Everybody. Who loses?

没有人。问题解决了，关系建立了，挑战性行为减少了，而这个多年没接受治疗的人开始接受治疗了。这不是魔法，是辛勤工作，但只需要三个要素，而她做得非常漂亮。

Nobody. Problem solved, relationship built, challenging behavior decreased, and this guy who hasn't gone to treatment in literally years starts going to treatment. Not magic, hard work, but three ingredients, and she did a beautiful job with it.

斯图尔特，我在想我们觉得这很难做到的一个原因，可能是我们甚至没有意识到，我们往往不只是希望人们改变，而是希望他们按照我们的理由去改变。

I'm wondering if one reason we find it difficult to do this, Stuart, is that perhaps without even articulating it to ourselves, we very often don't just want people to change, but we want people to change for our reasons.

是的。你知道，关键在于：你可以有你希望他们改变的理由。但这不能是唯一需要考虑的因素。我是说，在这个案例中她也有自己的理由。

Yes. And you know, here's the thing. It's okay for you to have your reasons for why you want them to change. But that can't be the only thing that needs to be taken into account. I mean, she had her own reasons in this case.

她的理由是：我是一名护士。这是精神病院。我希望你接受治疗。她不仅有权持有这些理由并付诸行动，但他的担忧也必须得到同等重视。我认为这正是协作解决问题的美妙之处。

Her reasons were, I'm a nurse. This is a psychiatric hospital. I want you to get treatment. It's okay for her to not only have those, but to pursue them, but his concerns have to have equal weight as well. And I think that's the beauty of collaborative problem solving.

并不是说你必须放弃自己的担忧或欲望。你不必放弃，可以继续追求，但这不能成为你唯一追求的目标，否则你就会陷入那种变相执行A计划的困境。

It's not that you need to relinquish your concerns or your desires. You don't have to, you can pursue them, but that can't be the only thing you're pursuing or else you're doing that tricky form of plan A.

你做过一些研究，探讨协作解决问题对人们技能发展的有效性。其中一项研究是在渥太华的儿童中心进行的。斯图尔特，告诉我你发现了什么。

You've done some research looking at the effectiveness of using collaborative problem solving on the skills that people develop. One of the studies you conducted was at a children's center in Ottawa. Tell me what you found, Stuart.

是的。我在这里讨论的是解决问题、减少挑战性行为、改善关系，但另一个重点是技能培养。我们在渥太华的这项研究中发现，接受协作解决问题的孩子——他们身边的成年人也采用这种方法——不仅行为问题（挑战性行为）比全省采用其他方法的孩子减少得更显著，而且孩子们开始发展技能。自我调节技能，如冲动控制，认知灵活性技能，我们之前讨论过的那些，他们开始掌握这些技能。所以这不仅是更富有同情心、更有效地解决问题。

Yeah. So, you know, I'm talking here about solving problems, decreasing challenging behavior, improving relationships, but the other thing is skill building. And what we found in this study in Ottawa, for instance, is that, kids who received collaborative problem solving, the adults in their lives were using collaborative problem solving, those kids not only did their behaviors, their challenging behaviors decrease more substantially compared to kids across the province who were treated with other approaches, but the kids started to develop skills. Self regulation skills, like impulse control, cognitive flexibility skills, the things that we talked about earlier, they started to develop those skills. So it's not just about solving problems in a more compassionate, effective way.

同时也是在培养技能。

It's also about building skills.

谈谈干预者——父母、管理者、朋友——能获得哪些好处，而不仅仅是接受干预的人。

Talk about the benefits for the people who are doing the intervening, the the parent, the manager, the friend, not just for the person who's receiving the intervention.

这是我们研究小组最让我欣喜的发现之一。我们在麻省总医院精神病学部门开展这项工作，这是个大型研究机构。我们研究所有方面。看到孩子们在成人使用这个方法并与之练习时发展技能很令人振奋。但最令人兴奋的或许是——正如你暗示的——猜猜当他们在与孩子（或成人）运用这个过程时，还有谁也开始发展这些完全相同的技能。

So this is one of my favorite findings from our research group. You know, we we, we our program where we do this work is based in the Department of Psychiatry at Mass General Hospital, which is a big research institution. We study everything. It was exciting to see that kids develop skills when adults use this process and practice with them. But perhaps the most exciting thing is, as you're alluding to here, guess who else starts to develop those very same skills when they utilize this process with kids or adults for that matter.

换句话说，当父母学会这样做时，他们就开始成为更好的问题解决者。他们会培养更好的换位思考能力、更强的共情能力以及更高的认知灵活性，这对我们这类人来说是个好消息，因为这意味着即使大脑可塑性降低，当你成年后，像我这样步入中年时，依然可以教会老狗新把戏。我喜欢的是

So in other words, when parents learn how to do this, they start to become better problem solvers. They develop better perspective taking skills, better empathizing skills, more cognitive flexibility, which is great news for people like us, because what it says is, you know, even when the brain is less malleable, when you're an adult, when you're middle aged like me, you can still teach an old dog new tricks. What I like about what

你刚才说的观点是，即使我们正在与他人交谈，那些我们试图帮助的人，某种程度上双方都在经历这个过程。对吧？所以我认为很多时候我们会想象自己——假设我扮演父母或管理者的角色——觉得自己是试图影响对方、改变对方的那个人。

you just said is that as even as we are in conversation with other people, people we're trying to help, it's also the case that in some ways these are both parties in some ways that are going through the process. Right? So I think very often we imagine ourselves let's say I'm in the role of a parent or I'm in the role of a manager. I imagine that I'm the one who's trying to influence the other person. I'm the one who's trying to change the other person.

你真正想表达的是这更像一种双向关系。或许我需要改进自身，需要对自己保持好奇甚至同理心。

What you're really saying is that it's more of a dyadic relationship. Perhaps I need to work on things, and I need to be curious about myself and perhaps even empathetic toward myself.

完全正确。比如作为管理者，了解团队成员在不同技能领域的优劣势非常有用吗？当然有用。同样重要的是——甚至更重要——你需要清楚自己的技能所长所短。正如你指出的，还要对自己怀有同理心。

Absolutely. And, you know, for instance, if you're a manager, is it very helpful to have a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of your team members across these different domains of skill? Absolutely. It is equally, if not more important, for you to have a grasp on your own skills and where your strengths and weaknesses are. And as you're pointing out, to, you know, be empathic with yourself.

当我说'如果能做好，人们就会做好'时，这适用于我们所有人。我喜欢提醒自己和他人：在每一刻，我们都在用现有的能力应对世界抛来的挑战，已经尽了最大努力。人生不同阶段，有时压力远超其他时期。有些人承受的远比别人多。而在不同时期，我们调用自身技能的能力也有高低起伏。

You know, when I say people do well if they can, that applies to all of us. I like to remind myself and others, we're all doing the best we can at any given moment with what the world is throwing at us and the skills we're able to bring to bear. At different times in our lives, there's going to be much more than we have to handle than others. Some people have to handle much more than others. And at different times, we're gonna have better or worse access to our skills.

但归根结底，你要对自己宽容些，因为我们都已竭尽全力。

But ultimately, you know, you gotta give yourself some grace because we are all doing the best we can.

我想知道是否有人反驳过你，说这套理论听起来美好，但实际上确实存在居心不良的人。对这些人过度共情只会让自己容易被利用。

I'm wondering whether you ever get pushback from people who say, this sounds all well and good in theory, but in fact, there really are some people who are bad actors. There are people who actually are, you know, their heart is not in the right place and and being overly empathetic to them just opens you up to exploitation.

是的。嗯，我记得之前跟你提过，我最初工作的那家青少年拘留中心。刚开始工作时，这个问题就经常被提起。我记得在第一次介绍会上，有位资深警卫说过，这确实很有意思。

Yeah. Well, I, you know, it's interesting. I remember that first juvenile detention facility that I worked in that I told you about earlier. When we first started working there, that was a big question that came up. I remember the first introductory presentation about this, one of the sort of senior guards there, he said, you know, this is really interesting.

我认为这大概适用于这里5%的囚犯。不包括另外95%，因为他们都是惯犯。但三五年后——差不多是系统改革见效的时间——我记得他重新评估说：我想修正之前的估算。

I think this really does apply to about 5% of the inmates here. Not the other 95 because they're they're hardened criminals, but 5%. I think that's right. Somewhere three to five years later, which is about how long implementation in a system takes, I remember a conversation where he said, you know what? I wanna change my calculation there.

现在我觉得这适用于这里95%的人。可能有5%例外，也许就是你问的那5%。但我想说，这些人并非天生如此。他们走到这一步的原因，很可能是长期承受着真实的压力、慢性毒性压力和人生创伤——这不是为恶行找借口，只是解释成因。

I think this applies to about 95% of the people we got here. Maybe 5%, I'm not sure about. And perhaps those are the 5% you're asking about. But I guess what I would say is I don't think those folks were born that way. Likely one of the causes of them getting to where they got is exposure to real stress, chronic toxic stress and trauma in their lives, which is not an excuse, just to be clear, for bad behavior, but it is an explanation.

因为我们确实知道，长期压力和创伤会影响大脑发育。猜猜影响哪里？正是今天我们讨论的这些能力所对应的大脑区域。

Because we do know that exposure to chronic stress and trauma impacts brain development. And guess what it impacts? Brain development in the parts of the brain that help us with these exact skills that we are talking about with each other today.

斯图尔特说，人们常误以为协作解决问题就是纵容不良行为、态度软弱。

Stewart says people sometimes feel collaborative problem solving is about ignoring bad behavior, being soft.

人们有个误解，以为协作解决问题就是放任自流、不设界限。这完全不是事实。你依然在设定预期、划清界限，有必须遵守的规范。区别在于当问题出现时，你除了强制服从或放任不管外，还有更有效的第三种选择。但常有人反驳说...

People have a misconception that when you're doing collaborative problem solving, it sort of means anything goes or you're not setting any limits or boundaries. And that's the furthest thing from the truth. You are still setting expectations, you have boundaries, there are things that people are required to do. It's just that what you're thinking about is when they don't do those things, when there's a problem, you have more than one option or more than two options, instead of just either trying to impose your will or forget it, you actually have another more powerful option. But, know, I think the other thing is that people will often say to me, they'll say, okay, that's fine.

『那怎么让人学会为自己的行为负责？协作解决问题时如何追责？』他们潜台词是：难道不需要惩罚来追责吗？我深入思考后发现，我们对此存在严重误解。比如认为承受惩罚就是承担责任——忍受惩罚折磨就等于负责了。

But how is somebody gonna learn how to take responsibility for their actions? I mean, when are you gonna, how are you gonna hold people accountable when you do collaborative problem solving? And usually what they mean by that is like, don't you need consequences to hold people accountable and have them take responsibility? And I've thought a lot about this and I've realized that we've we've gotten really misguided notions around this. Like, the notion that get somebody getting a consequence that that's taking responsibility for your actions, just like putting up with a consequence suffering through it, that's taking responsibility.

这就是所谓的承担责任吗？这种方式让人负责的方式真的很蹩脚。难道最终最有力的方式不是让某人真正为他们的行为负责吗？难道不是让那个人必须解决问题以防止问题再次发生吗？那难道不是承担责任的终极形式吗？

That's being held accountable? That that's like a really lame way to hold somebody accountable. And isn't ultimately the sort of most powerful way to hold somebody accountable and have them take responsibility for their actions? Isn't that that person being on the hook for solving the problem so that it doesn't keep occurring? That isn't that the ultimate form of taking responsibility?

某种程度上，我认为我们现有的模式几乎是从刑事司法系统借鉴来的——你说某人做错了事，承担责任就意味着施加惩罚或罚款。在刑事司法系统中这或许合理，毕竟法官能有什么选择？我不确定法官能否与面前的当事人进行协作式问题解决。但世界上许多问题并不涉及犯罪。

I mean, in some ways, I think the model we have is almost borrowed from the criminal justice system where you say someone has done something wrong. Taking accountability means you're you're levying a punishment or a fine. And I and I suppose it makes sense in the criminal justice system because, you know, what options do judges have? Judges are I'm not sure judges can do collaborative problem solving, you know, with people who come before them. But many problems in the world are not about are not about crimes.

这引出了一个更宏观的问题：我们对奖惩制度的迷恋究竟从何而来？它并非凭空出现。看看学校纪律或矫正系统，其源头何在？它源自操作性心理学。有趣的是，已有大量关于'应急管理方法'或'代币经济体系'的研究——这些都是用奖惩塑造行为的系统化方式。

Well, and this goes back to the a larger question, which is where did our love affair with rewards and consequences come from in the first place? You know, it didn't emerge out of nowhere. When you look at like school discipline and things like that or correctional systems, where did that come from? And where it came from is from operant psychology. And what's interesting about this is there's been a ton of research on what we call contingency management approaches or token economy systems, which are like really organized ways of using rewards and consequences to try to shape behavior.

所有这些研究表明，奖惩本身并非绝对有害而不该使用，它们在某些方面有效，在其他方面则不然。它们擅长提醒人们行为准则、是非对错，也能激励人们行动。但它们不擅长什么？它们无法培养神经认知技能——这不是它们的错。

And what all that research has shown is it's not like rewards and consequences are bad and you should never use them, but they're good at some things and not good at other things. They're good at reminding people what's expected of them, what's right and what's wrong, and they're good at motivating people to do those things. What are they not good at? They're not good at building neurocognitive skills. It's not their fault.

它们本就不是为此设计的。它们不擅长建立人与人之间的互助关系，最终也无法帮助人们在挫折中保持冷静（正如我们讨论过的）。数千项研究明确表明：当使用有形外部奖励驱使某人行动时，会与内在驱动力发展呈显著负相关。换句话说，我们越用外部激励，就越侵蚀其内在动力。

They just were never intended to be used that way. They're not good at building a helping relationship between one person and another. And ultimately, they're not good at helping people stay calm in the midst of frustration, as we talked about. There's very clear research, thousands of studies studies that have shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that when you use a tangible external reinforcer reward to try to get somebody to do something, there's a strong negative correlation with the development of intrinsic drive or motivation. In other words, the more we try to motivate somebody with something externally, we eat away at that person's internal drive.

斯图尔特，当你纵观这些研究时——虽然你面对的是个案患者——但某种程度上你或许在提出一个更宏大的道德命题：关于我们应如何与他人互动。谈谈这个宏观视角吧，相比传统方式，你认为这种方法的优势何在？

I'm wondering when you step back and look at this body of work, Stuart, obviously, you're working with individual patients. You you have individual case studies. But I think you're making, in some ways, perhaps even a larger moral argument here about how we need to interact with others. Talk about that bigger picture. What do you see about the benefits of this approach versus the conventional approach, know, writ large?

这确实是个道德命题，但有科学依据。当我说'有能力者自会做好'时，人们觉得这只是美好哲学。我说这固然充满同理心，但更是植根于脑科学的认知。它在人力成本和经济成本方面意义重大：如果我们能重新理解行为，在人们面临技能（而非意愿）问题时放弃惩罚性干预，将可能节省数十亿美元开支，更重要的是——挽救无数人生。

Well, it is really a moral argument, but it's a scientifically based one. You know, when I say people do well if they can, people say, well, that's a very nice philosophy. I'm say I said, well, it may be an empathic and compassionate one, but it is also one rooted in science, in understanding the brain. And it has enormous implications when it comes to the human cost, when it comes to actual financial costs. Know, if we could rethink behavior, if we could move away from punitive interventions when people are struggling with skill instead of will, it could have dramatic implications in terms of billions of dollars of cost savings and more importantly, human lives that are saved.

确实如此，这代表着某种更为宏大的意义。

So yes, this is a, you know, this means something much larger.

斯图尔特·阿布隆是哈佛医学院的心理学家，著有《可变性：协作式问题解决如何改变家庭、学校和工作中的生活》一书。斯图尔特·阿布隆，非常感谢您今天做客《隐藏的大脑》节目。

Stuart Ablon is a psychologist at Harvard Medical School. He is the author of Changeable How Collaborative Problem Solving Changes Lives at Home, at School, and at Work. Stuart Ablon, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

这是我的荣幸。非常感谢您进行这次对话并对我们的工作感兴趣。感谢您分享这些内容。

It was truly my pleasure. I really appreciate you having this conversation and being interested in our work. Thanks so much for sharing it.

《隐藏的大脑》由Hidden Brain Media制作。我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·夸雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。塔拉·博伊尔是我们的执行制片人。我是《隐藏的大脑》的执行编辑。如果您喜欢《隐藏的大脑》并想了解更多内容，请考虑订阅我们的播客会员服务Hidden Brain Plus。

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我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆，下次见。

I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.