重置按钮

你知道，这一切很大程度上始于敬畏感带给我们的那种渺小感。

You know, and so much of it begins with the feeling that Awe can produce in us, of making us feel small.

我记得有一次去阿拉斯加，感觉自己是一个生活在巨大星球上的微小生物。

I remember visiting Alaska once and feeling like I was a very small creature on a very, very big planet.

你也做过研究，探讨了同样的想法。

And and you've done studies looking at the same idea.

你在优胜美地进行了一项有趣的研究，探索敬畏如何改变我们对自己规模的感知。

You ran an interesting study in Yosemite exploring this idea that awe changes our sense of our own scale.

你知道，自我在大脑和我们的意识中占据了很大空间。

You know, the self takes up a lot of area in the brain and in our consciousness.

我们总是不断思考，尤其是在这个现代社会中，关于我的目标、我的地位、我的抱负、我在做什么、我的欲望、我的兴趣。

We're always thinking, especially in this modern world, about my goals, my status, my aspirations, what I'm doing, my desires, my interests.

进化论者确实讨论过自我利益的问题。

And evolutionists have really talked about the problem of self interest.

我们如何让人们将注意力转向他人、社会和集体？

How do we get people to orient to other people, to societies and collectives?

我们开始产生这样一个想法：敬畏感通过创造‘小我’来实现这一点。

And we started to have this idea that awe does that by creating the small self.

在许多关于敬畏的著作中，比如几个世纪前的宗教文献、自然文学，拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生的顿悟——‘我什么都不是’，对吧？

In a lot of writings about awe, right religious writings from centuries ago, nature writings, Ralph Waldo Emerson, his big epiphany, I am nothing, right?

迷幻文学。

Psychedelic writings.

所有这些著作都在探讨这一点，但我们必须用实证方法来验证。

All these writings are speaking to this, but we had to get it empirically.

因此，我的合作者、来自中国的白阳前往优胜美地，在一条特定的观景路边拦下来自42个国家的游客，那里是人们第一次看到优胜美地山谷、酋长岩和巨大花岗岩峭壁以及令人惊叹的山谷的地方。

So my collaborator, Yang Bai, from China, went to Yosemite, stopped travelers from 42 countries at this particular outlook on a road where you first get to see Yosemite Valley and El Capitan and the great granite slabs and this incredible valley that's just awe inspiring.

白阳所做的是一项非常简单的任务。

And what Yang Bai did is she did a really simple task.

她让那些人在那一刻画出自己，并写下‘我’。

She had people at that moment draw themselves and write me.

在那种情境下，他们画出的‘自我’形象都非常小。

And in that context, those drawings of the self were really small.

与适当的对照条件相比，他们对自己的描述非常渺小。

They wrote their sense of me really small compared to the right kind of control conditions.

我们还有其他不同类型的数据，甚至神经科学数据表明，敬畏能平息这种以自我为中心的个人身份感，并让你敞开心扉去感受那些与你相连的宏大事物。

And we have other data and really different kinds of data, even neuroscientific data showing awe quiets this egoistic, self focused sense of personal identity and opens you up to the big things that you're connected to.

你和你的合作者兰尼·石塔曾让一些人站在一个巨大的T字形骨架前。

You and your collaborator, Lanny Shiota, also once had people stand in front of an enormous T.

雷克斯骨架。

Rex skeleton.

能跟我讲讲这个实验吗，达彻？

Tell me about that experiment, Dacher.

在伯克利校园里，我们有一具令人惊叹的雷克斯骨架复制品。

On the Berkeley campus, we have this incredible replica of a T.

它位于我们的古生物学博物馆中。

Rex skeleton, and it's in our Museum of Paleontology.

当你站在它旁边时，我们在初步测试中发现，人们说：‘我感到敬畏，天啊。’

And you stand next to it, and we did the pilot testing, people say, I feel awe, man.

这太棒了。

This is amazing.

它太大了。

It's huge.

想象一下被这东西追着跑。

Imagine being chased by that thing.

你知道吗？

You know?

哇。

Wow.

这些生物存在于七千万年前？

Those things existed 70,000,000 years ago?

太震撼了。

It's awesome.

所以隆尼和我们的团队让加州大学伯克利分校的学生站在这个霸王龙化石旁边，或者让他们背对化石，看着一条走廊。

So Lonnie and our team stood Berkeley undergraduates by this T Rex, or they stood in the opposite direction looking down a hallway.

有一种经典的测量自我或身份的方法：你会得到一个句子开头‘我是’，旁边是一条空白横线，你需要填写二十次不同的内容。

And there's this classic measure of your own self or identity, which is you are given the stem I am, and next to it is a blank line, you just fill it in 20 different times.

通常，生活在西方的人会说：我是外向的，我是有抱负的，我对这个感兴趣，等等。而当他们站在霸王龙旁边，感受它的震撼时，他们的自我意识会扩展，共同人性的主题便会浮现。

And typically, people living in the West will say things like, I am, you know, extroverted, and I am ambitious, and I am interested in this, and I had And when they stood next to that T Rex and took it in and felt awe, their sense of self expanded and themes of common humanity emerged.

我是一个人类。

I am a human.

我是一个哺乳动物。

I am a mammal.

我是加利福尼亚的一部分。

I am a part of California.

我属于这个种族群体。

I am of this ethnic variety.

于是，这种集体性的共同自我浮现出来，这就是敬畏的力量。

And so this collective communal self emerged, and that's the power of awe.

仅仅三十秒的片刻，你就从狭隘的自我关注，转变为：哇，我是某个宏大事物的一部分。

A little moment, thirty seconds of it, you shift from self focus, very narrow, to, wow, I'm part of something really large.

这些内容不仅影响我们如何看待自己，还影响我们对待他人的行为方式。

And some of this translates not just to how we think about ourselves in our own minds, but how we're acting towards other people.

你还在加州大学伯克利分校做了另一个实验，这次涉及一片桉树林。

You also ran another experiment on the Berkeley campus, this time involving a grow of eucalyptus trees.

给我讲讲这个研究吧，达科。

Tell me about that study, Ducko.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，敬畏感的一个美妙之处在于，它能激发我们最好的想象力。

You know, one of the beauties of awe and to understand it, it brings out the best of our imagination, you know.

当我的实验室开始对敬畏感产生兴趣时，我们提出了各种想法，并开展了这些疯狂的研究。

And my lab started to get interested in awe, we were throwing around all these ideas and doing these crazy studies.

极具想象力的保罗·皮夫——如今是加州大学尔湾分校的教授——做了一项研究，他带大学生们去了一个桉树林。

And the very imaginative Paul Piff, now a professor at UC Irvine, did a study in which he took undergrads to a eucalyptus grove.

那是蓝桉树。

And they're blue gum eucalyptus trees.

它们是北美最高的树木之一。

They're some of the tallest in North America.

当你抬头仰望时，那光线、色彩、树叶和香气都令人惊叹。

When you look up into them, they're light and the colors and the leaves and their fragrances are just astonishing.

当你站在这片树林中央时，它会将你温柔地拥抱。

That grove, you stand in the middle of them, embraces you.

它让你感觉自己与它们融为一体。

It makes you feel like you're a part of them.

在对照组中，人们也身处同一地点，但注视的是这栋科学大楼；结果发现，尚卡尔，仅仅花一两分钟无理由地抬头仰望这些树木，就产生了效果。

And in the control condition, people are in the same place, but they looked at this science building and lo and behold, Shankar, this is a minute or two of just for no reason looking up into these trees.

在一到两分钟内，我们的学生报告说，自我中心感和特权感降低了。

In one to two minutes, our students reported feeling less narcissistic, less entitled.

当我们要付给他们报酬时，他们需要的钱更少了。

They needed less money to do the study when they off we offered to pay them.

接着，保罗安排了一个意外场景：一个学生经过时不小心掉了一些笔，而感受到敬畏的人捡起了更多的笔。

And then Paul staged this accident where a student was walking by and they dropped some pens, and the people feeling awe picked up more pens.

对吧？

Right?

我们在严格控制的实验室研究中重复了这一结果。

And we replicated that in tightly controlled laboratory studies.

当你感受到敬畏时，你会更愿意分享。

You just share more when you're feeling awe.

你会更愿意合作。

You cooperate more.

只需花一两分钟抬头看看这些树，你就会更愿意给予。

You give more, just with a minute or two of looking it up up at some trees.

你知道，这跟你在威斯康星州的亲身经历非常相似，是吧。

You know, very much like you described about your own experiences in in Wisconsin Yeah.

你和乔纳森·海特曾说，敬畏的体验能为心灵按下重置键。

You and Jonathan Haidt have said that an experience of awe can press a reset button in the mind.

你这话是什么意思，迪克尔？

What do you mean by that, Decker?

重置按钮非常有趣。

Reset buttons are really interesting.

实际上，西尔万·汤金斯曾提到，当你被一声响亮的雷声、一位老朋友的出现，或在街上偶遇朋友而惊到时，它会重新启动你的思维。

And actually, you know, Sylvan Tomkins wrote about when you're startled by a loud clap of thunder or the appearance of a an old friend or bumping into a friend in the street, it kinda restarts your mind.

它让你重新以崭新、清新的眼光看待事物，而富有沉思的人可能会说，这是一种初学者的心态。

It resets it to look at things anew and fresh and and contemplative people might say with a beginner's mind.

而敬畏感正是为尚卡尔所做的事。

And that's what awe does for a Shankar.

我们回来后，如何在我们的生活中带来更多敬畏感？

When we come back, how to bring more awe into our lives?

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维达anta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在加州大学伯克利分校，心理学家达彻·凯尔特纳研究仁爱情绪，包括敬畏之情。

At UC Berkeley, psychologist Dacre Keltner studies the benevolent emotions, including the emotion of awe.

他是《敬畏：日常奇迹的新科学及其如何改变你的生活》一书的作者。

He's the author of the book, Awe, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life.

达彻，你最近研究了敬畏对弱势学生和退伍军人的影响。

Dacher, you recently studied the effects of awe on disadvantaged students and military veterans.

他们平时生活中很少感受到敬畏。

Neither felt much awe in their regular lives.

你做了什么？

What did you do?

这项研究包含哪些内容？

What did the study involve?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我们的文化中以及科学界对生活中的制度性结构性创伤越来越关注，比如你生活贫困，附近没有公园等等，或者你像退伍军人那样经历过战斗、目睹他人死亡，他们的心理状态看起来是创伤性的。

You know, there's a growing interest in our culture and scientifically about how the institutional structural traumas of life, if you're impoverished and you don't have parks nearby and the like, or you have a career like veterans who go see combat and see people die, their profiles look traumatized.

他们常常感到抑郁、警觉、焦虑，其发生率是美国普通公民的两倍，皮质醇和炎症水平也显著升高。

They are depressed and vigilant, anxious very often, twice the rates of American citizens, elevated levels of cortisol and inflammation and the like.

我后来结识了退伍军人斯泰西·贝尔，我们开始讨论这个问题。

And I became friends with Stacy Bear, who's a veteran, and we started talking about this.

他带领退伍军人参加户外活动项目。

And he leads veterans into outdoors programs.

因此，我们在这项研究中招募了退伍军人和加州东湾地区一些条件极其艰苦的贫困学校的高中生。

And so what we decided to do in this study is we got veterans and high school students who were in really tough impoverished schools in parts of the East Bay in California.

那里到处是铁栏、警车，没有花园等等。

And it's where there are bars and police cars and no gardens, etcetera.

这些孩子从未去过公园户外活动。

These kids hadn't, you know, been outside in parks.

他们从未露营过。

They hadn't gone camping.

他们中的许多人从未真正见过满天繁星的夜空。

Many of them had not really seen a night sky of stars.

于是，我们带着退伍军人和高中生们沿着美国河漂流，那段河景非常美丽，船会穿过急流，你们可以凝视河水，看到鱼类。

So we took them rafting, our veterans and then our high schoolers, down the American River on a stretch, and it's beautiful, and you wind through these rapids, and you look at the water, and you see fish.

这太神奇了。

It's amazing.

我们在研究开始时、一周后测量了他们的情绪、压力、创伤感以及归属感。

And what we found, we measured their emotions and stress and trauma and sense of connection at the start of the study, a week later.

随着研究的进行，我们测量了他们的惊奇感、敬畏感、与同伴的连接感，以及皮质醇水平和情绪状态。

And as the study unfolded, we measured their sense of wonder and awe and connection to their peers and cortisol and emotions.

我们发现，一周后，这些高中生的压力减轻了，幸福感增强了。

And what we found is our high schoolers, a week later, felt less stress, more happiness.

他们感到与社区和家庭的联系更加紧密。

They felt more connected to their community and family.

而我们的退伍军人的创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）症状减轻了30%。

And our veterans felt 30% less PTSD.

一位高中生说：我被连绵的山丘和水流深深打动了。

One high schooler said, I'm so struck by the rolling hills and the the water.

然后一位退伍军人说：我喜欢这句话，星空璀璨让我意识到，我的担忧并没有我想象中那么重要，而我在世界上能做的事情才更重要。

And then a veteran said, and I love this quote where, you know, the star splatted sky made me realize that my worries are not as important as I thought they are, but what I could do in the world is more important.

这是一项很棒的研究，有许多不同类型的科学证据表明，亲近自然、体验敬畏、园艺、散步、走进森林、站在树旁，对你的神经系统和心理健康都有益处。

And so it was this nice study, and there's a lot of science on this of different varieties that nature immersion and finding awe, gardening, walking, getting out into the woods, standing near a tree is good for your nervous system and your mind.

是否有证据表明敬畏感会对我们的生理产生影响？

Is there any evidence that awe has physiological effects on us?

是的，你知道吗，人体内有一条叫做迷走神经的神经，它是你体内最大的神经束。

Yeah, there you know, there's this thing called the vagus nerve, largest bundle of nerves in your body.

它能减缓心率、加深呼吸、调节消化，有助于肠道和微生物组的健康。

It slows heart rate, deepens breathing, regulates digestion, helps with your gut and the microbiome.

一般来说，拥有功能良好、反应灵敏且迷走神经活性较高的人都生活得更好。

In general, people who have a nice functioning vagus nerve that is responsive and has elevated levels do better in life.

我们发现，得益于艾米·戈登和珍妮·斯泰拉的研究，短暂的敬畏体验——比如看到鼓舞人心的画面、听闻道德之美——都能提升你的迷走神经活性。

And we found, thanks to Amy Gordon and Jenny Stellar, that little brief experiences of awe, seeing an inspiring image, hearing about moral beauty elevates your vagus nerve activation.

而同样令人印象深刻的是，当你的免疫系统——更具体地说是细胞因子系统——释放出攻击病原体的蛋白质时，这就是导致你感到发烧、乏力和过热的炎症反应。

And then just as impressively when your immune system, the cytokine system more specifically, cranks out these proteins that attack pathogens, and that's the inflammation response that makes you feel feverish and sluggish and overheated.

当你对抗病毒时，这种反应是有益的。

It's good when you're fighting a virus.

但如果你长期处于炎症状态，这就不好了。

It's not good if you're chronically inflamed.

这是美国健康面临的主要威胁之一。

And it's one of the central threats to health in The United States.

珍妮·斯特勒和内哈·约翰·亨德森在我们的实验室中发现，感受到大量的敬畏感——在所有积极情绪中——能够抑制炎症反应。

And Jenny Steller and Neha John Henderson went out and found in our lab that feeling a lot of awe of all the positive emotions quiets down the inflammation response.

因此，这告诉我们，爱默生在马萨诸塞州一个寒冷的日子里经历了巨大的敬畏顿悟时曾说：‘大自然无所不能修复。’

So it tells us, know, Emerson, when he had this big epiphany of awe out on a cold day in Massachusetts, he said, There is nothing that nature cannot repair.

我认为他当时感受到的正是敬畏所带来的身体变化：迷走神经张力提升、炎症减轻。

And I think he was feeling these changes in the body of vagal tone and inflammation, reduced inflammation, that awe gives us.

所以，达克拉，你已经描述了敬畏对我们有许多好处，但你也提到，我们的社会正变得越来越缺乏敬畏感。

So, Dakhra, you've described many ways in which awe is good for us, but you've also said that our society is becoming awe deprived.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

我们生活的深层结构，某种程度上，尤其是对当今的年轻人而言，正在阻碍着敬畏感的产生。

The deeper structural conditions of our lives are in some ways, especially for young people today, working against awe.

我在伯克利这样的大型大学每年教授成千上万的学生，对此我深有体会。

And I really sense this teaching thousands of students a year at a big university like Berkeley.

他们全都缺乏敬畏感，因为生活被安排得太满，他们不再被允许像我小时候那样，在邻里间和山脚下自由漫游。

They are all deprived because too much is structured and they are not allowed to wander like I did as a kid, wandering around the neighborhoods and out into the foothills.

他们缺乏敬畏感，也因为新技术——这些技术让我们过于关注自我。

They are awe deprived because of the new technologies, which frankly just get us too focused on the self.

我们越关注自我，越关注狭隘的自我，就越少感受到敬畏。

The more we're focused on the self, the narrow parts of the self, the less awe we feel.

他们缺乏敬畏感，还因为当今盛行的种种竞争性自我比较。

They're awe deprived because of all the competitive self comparisons that have arisen today.

那么，人们现在能获得足够的敬畏感吗？

So are people getting enough of it?

没有。

No.

我们现在更需要敬畏感。

We need more awe right now.

你知道吗，最近《柳叶刀》的一项研究显示，疫情导致抑郁和焦虑上升了百分之二十到三十。

Know, Lancet publication recently showed that the pandemic has led to rises in depression and anxiety by twenty percent to thirty percent.

我们都感受到了这一点，尤其是我们的年轻人。

We've all felt this, our young people in particular.

但日常生活中也有敬畏感。

But there is everyday awe.

只要我们花一点时间走出去寻找，它就在那里等着我们发现。

And if we just take a little moment to get out and look for it, it's there to find.

所以，达彻，最近的一项研究中，你让志愿者进行了敬畏漫步。

So, Dacher, in one recent study, you had volunteers take an awe walk.

什么是敬畏漫步？

What is an awe walk?

找到敬畏感最简单的方法之一，就是以一种无拘无束的方式外出散步。

One of the easiest ways to find awe is to, in an unbounded way, go out and walk.

长期以来，人类在精神冥想传统中一直这样做。

We have been doing this as humans for a long time in the spiritual contemplative traditions.

走进自然并进行敬畏散步，正是这些传统的一部分。

Getting out into nature and doing awe walks is just part of those traditions.

我们决定科学地验证它的益处。

And what we decided to do is test its benefits scientifically.

因此，我写下了关于敬畏散步的指导说明。

And so I wrote up these instructions for an awe walk.

你所做的，就是进行普通人常做的普通散步——事实上，在疫情期间，步行达到了历史最高水平。

And what you do is you take your ordinary walk that a lot of people do, and in fact during the pandemic there were historic levels of walking.

你不仅外出进行剧烈运动以有益心脏健康，还要带着孩童般的好奇心，停下来反思周围微小事物中真正有趣的地方，比如花朵、阴影的图案，同时也要抬头越过地平线，仰望那浩瀚的景象，对吧？

And you not only go out to do it vigorously and to help your heart, but you go with a childlike sense of wonder and you just stop and reflect on what is really interesting in the small things around you, the flowers and patterns of shadows and like, and also look up past the horizon and look up to the vast things, right?

并且以一种去你感兴趣的地方的方式进行。

And do it in a way where you go places that you're curious about.

在这项研究中，我们的参与者年龄均为75岁或以上。

And in this study, what we did is our participants were all 75 years old or older.

在这个年龄段，由于我们意识到死亡即将来临，并目睹他人离世，往往会感到更加焦虑。

That is an age where, because we have a sense that death is coming and we see people die, we're a little bit more anxious at that stage of life.

因此，我们的一组参与者每周进行一次敬畏漫步，持续八周。

And so one group of our participants did an aw walk once a week for eight weeks.

另一组参与者作为严格对照组，每周进行一次剧烈步行。

The other group of participants, tight control, did a vigorous walk once a week.

每次步行时，他们都会拍一张自己的照片，随后我们收集了大量自我报告数据，比如他们日常的状态、焦虑水平等。

Each time they did a walk, they took a picture of themselves, and then we gathered a bunch of self reports, like how are they doing on a daily basis, how is their levels of anxiety and so forth.

我们只发现了一些结果。

And we found just a couple of things.

第一，你进行敬畏漫步的次数越多，它就越令人感到敬畏。

One, the more you do the awe walk, the more awe inspiring it becomes.

敬畏并不会因重复体验而减弱，反而会变得更加丰富和深刻。

Awe doesn't diminish with experience, it gets richer and deeper.

到八周结束时，我们的敬畏漫步参与者感受到了大量的敬畏。

By the end of the eight weeks, our awe walk participants were feeling a lot of awe.

第二，自我发生了更多变化。

Two, more changes in the self.

他们有自己的一些照片。

There are pictures of themselves.

我非常喜欢这个发现。

And I love this finding.

随着时间推移，自我逐渐变小，并开始向一侧漂移，他们开始将敬畏漫步中的岩石和日落纳入其中。

The self gets smaller over time and it starts to drift off to the side and they're including, you know, the rocks and sunsets of their AWAC.

第三，非常重要的是，每天他们感受到的痛苦更少，对生活的焦虑也减少了。

And then third, really importantly, on a daily basis, they just felt less distress, you know, they felt less anxiety about life.

在这次对话中，戴克，我们很多时间都在谈论美丽与壮丽中的敬畏。

You know, in many ways in this conversation, Daker, we've spent a lot of time talking about awe in the in the beautiful and the majestic.

但你曾写道，生活的许多方面都令人惊叹，包括那些并不完美的部分。

But you've written that so much of life is awesome, including the parts that are not great.

跟我说说你和你哥哥罗尔夫的关系。

Tell me about your relationship with your brother, Rolf.

你们关系非常亲密，对吧？

You you were very close to him.

是的。

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

听到你提到他的名字，我就起鸡皮疙瘩，眼泪都出来了。

You know, just hearing you say his name brings goosebumps and tears to me.

他比我小一岁。

He was born one year after me, so he was younger.

我们做什么都一起。

And we did everything together.

我们一起打少年棒球。

We played little league together.

我们一起打篮球，一起闲逛，一起去过墨西哥。

We played basketball teams together, wandered together, went to Mexico together.

我们彼此担任对方婚礼的伴郎。

We're best men in each other's weddings.

我们都成了社会科学类的教师。

We both became social science y teacher types.

坦白说，他教会了我如何更善良、如何更勇敢。

And frankly, he taught me how to be kinder and how to be courageous.

我不认为自己早年就具备这些品质。

I don't think I was endowed with those tendencies early.

是他教会了我。

He taught me.

在许多方面，他都是我道德之美的榜样。

He was my example in many ways of moral beauty.

因此，尽管兄弟情谊有起有落，我与他关系极为亲密，但他始终是我的核心。

So I was profoundly close to him through the ebbs and flows of brotherhood, but he was my core.

所以我知道几年前他被诊断出结肠癌。

So I understand a few years ago he was diagnosed with colon cancer.

告诉我关于这件事吧，迪克尔。

Tell me about that, Decker.

所有在听的人，如果你们曾经亲近过结肠癌患者，就知道那简直是一场噩梦。

Anyone out listening, you know, who's been close to colon cancer, it's a horror show.

对于我哥哥来说，两年里，我看着他从一个210磅、非常强壮的人，瘦到147磅，骨瘦如柴，甚至昏厥。

And for my brother, for two years, I watched him, you know, from being a two ten pound, very strong man, one hundred and forty seven pounds, bone thin, passing out.

有很多痛苦，但有些痛苦会彻底摧毁意识，那就是爆发性疼痛。

There's a lot of pain, but there are certain kinds of pain that just wipe out consciousness, breakthrough pain.

腹部疼痛就是这样。

And abdominal pain is like that.

他全都经历了。

He got it all.

化疗期间，我一直陪在他身边。

Chemotherapy, and I was just there all the time.

然后，当他得知癌症复发并侵入肠道时，他决定服用一种药物组合。

And then he decided to take a cocktail when he knew the cancer had returned and headed into his gut.

我们在一月份去了那里，看着他慢慢离开这个世界。

And we all went up there in January and we watched him slowly leave this world.

山卡尔，我经历了生命中最可怕的两年，亲眼目睹我的伴侣、我的兄弟罗尔在身体上逐渐衰弱。

And Shankar, I had gone through the most horrifying two years of my life watching my companion in awe, my brother Rolf, fade physically.

但在那一刻，看到他平静下来，即将在失去身体后走向彼岸时，我们所有人都围在他身边，抚摸着他，那光线感觉不同了。

But in that moment of seeing him calmer, heading into where he was going after losing his body, we were all around him, we touched him, the light felt different.

我们沉默不语，低垂着头，心中充满对我的兄弟罗尔及其意义的敬畏。

We were quiet, we bowed our heads, and we were all in reverence of my brother Rolf and what he meant.

看着他离去，我心中充满了惊奇与敬畏。

And watching him go, I was filled with astonishment and awe.

我理解你在哥哥去世后，曾去旅行以纪念他的记忆。

I understand that you took a trip to honor your brother's memory after he after he died.

你去了哪里，迪克尔？

Where did you go, Decker?

他去世后，我回到伯克利的生活，整个人都崩溃了。

After he died, and then I returned to my life in Berkeley and was blown off the map.

这正是琼·狄迪恩在描写哀伤时所描述的那种状态，你知道的。

And it's really the state that Joan Didion describes, you know, in her writing about grief.

我睡不着，焦虑又困惑，真的非常挣扎。

I couldn't sleep and anxious and confused and was just really struggling.

然后一个声音出现在我心中，它说：去寻找敬畏。

And this voice came to me and it was find awe.

我哥哥和我总是去山里。

And my brother and I, we always went to the mountains.

你知道，我们在内华达山脉附近长大，我去了高 Sierra 和鸭湖——那里是我和他曾经徒步的地方，还有东侧的麦莫尼斯。

You know, we grew up in the mountains near the Sierras and I went up into the High Sierras and Ducks Lake where he and I had hiked, and Mammoth in the East Side Of The Sierras.

当我看到他和我曾经一同见过的山脊时，我感觉到他就在那里。

When I saw the ridgeline that he and I had seen, I felt him there.

我听到了他的声音。

I heard his voice.

我看到了他和我曾经看过的树，这些树在风中摇曳，是颤杨树。

I saw the trees that he and I had seen, these trees flicker in the wind, the aspen trees.

我就感觉他就在这里，商羯罗。

And I just felt him there, Shankar.

在这片山中，我的兄弟与我同在。

I was like, in these mountains, my brother is with me.

达彻·卡尔特纳是加州大学伯克利分校的心理学家。

Dacher Kaltner is a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley.

他是《敬畏：日常奇迹的新科学及其如何改变你的生活》一书的作者。

He's the author of Awe, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life.

达彻，感谢你今天做客我的《隐性大脑》节目。

Dacher, thank you for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

商羯罗，能与你对话是我的荣幸。

Shankar, it is a privilege to be in conversation with you.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我们回来后，解答您的问题。

When we come back, your questions answered.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨回应听众关于学习和她所说的超越性思维的想法与故事。

Mary Helen Imordino Yang responds to listeners' thoughts and stories about learning and what she calls transcendent thinking.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

学习阅读和写作的方式不止一种。

There's more than one way to learn how to read and write.

但如果您在20世纪50年代的美国长大，您的课堂可能就是这样展开的。

But if you grew up in The US in the 1950s, your classes may have unfolded something like this.

作为阅读准备课程的一部分，孩子们被训练从左到右阅读。

As part of the reading readiness program, children are trained to look from left to right.

这段内容来自1956年发布的一部纪录片。

This is from a documentary released in 1956.

孩子们整齐地坐在课桌排里。

Children are sitting in rows of desks.

他们抬头注视着老师。

They are staring up at their teacher.

老师带领他们学习阅读和写作技巧。

She walks them through reading and writing techniques.

自然拼读法和字母表帮助孩子们学习拼写。

Phonics and the alphabet help children learn to spell.

帕蒂正在按字母顺序排列单词。

Patty is arranging words in alphabetical order.

丹尼正在将它们分成两个音节。

Danny is dividing them in two syllables.

肯尼斯正在标注重音符号。

Kenneth is placing the accent marks.

知识单向流动，从教师流向学生。

Knowledge flows in one direction, from teacher to students.

强调规则和记忆。

There's an emphasis on rules and memorization.

迪安娜和威尔德知道，他们必须像他们的父母和祖父母一样练习，以记住数字事实。

Deanna and Wilder know they must practice just as their parents and grandparents did to memorize the number facts.

这种教学方式长期以来一直是美国及其他地区的标准，如今仍在许多教室中延续。

This kind of teaching was the standard for a long time in The US and elsewhere and continues in many classrooms today.

但在近年来，许多教育工作者和学校已采纳了替代性的学习方法。

But in more recent years, many educators and schools have embraced alternative approaches to learning.

体验式学习、问题导向学习、项目导向学习、翻转课堂、全人教育，这些方法都试图颠覆传统的教学模式。

Experiential learning, problem based learning, project based learning, flipped classrooms, whole child education, all of these approaches attempt to upend the traditional model of teaching.

在南加州大学，心理学家和神经科学家玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨表示，任何教育方法都应从学生出发，而不是从所教授的内容开始。

At the University of Southern California, psychologist and neuroscientist Mary Helen Immordino Yang says any educational approach should start not with the material being taught, it should start with the student.

玛丽·海伦曾作为嘉宾参加过《隐藏的思维》最近一期节目，主题是《我们的大脑如何学习》。

Mary Helen was a guest on a recent episode of Hidden Brain titled How Our Brains Learn.

今天，我们再次邀请她来到节目中，回答你们关于学习科学的问题。

Today, we bring her back on the show to answer your questions about the science of learning.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨，欢迎再次做客《隐藏的思维》。

Mary Helen Immordino Yang, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

谢谢你们邀请我回来。

Thank you for having me back.

玛丽·海伦，我想从一位名叫拉希德的听众发来的消息开始。

Mary Helen, I'd like to start with a message we received from a listener named Rashid.

这条消息涉及一段让他产生共鸣但原因却并不正面的学习经历。

It had to do with a learning experience that resonated with him for all the wrong reasons.

六年级时，我妈妈给我报了游泳课，因为我不会游泳。

In sixth grade, my mom signed me up for swimming lessons because I didn't know how to swim.

在此之前，我一直是个全优生，所以我觉得只要稍微努力一点、用心一点，就能再拿个A。

Until then, I had always been a straight a student, so I figured with a little hard work, a little application, I would get another a.

但我整个过程中都很吃力，即使上完课后还是不会游泳。

But I struggled the whole time and ended up not knowing how to swim even at the end of the class.

于是老师给了我一个F，甚至还耸了耸肩说：‘你根本没学会游泳。’

And so the teacher gave me an f, and then even shrugged and said, well, you didn't learn how to swim.

我得承认，这对我打击挺大的，因为这是我人生中第一个F，第一个非A的成绩，而且我妈妈并不是付钱让他给我打分的。

And I have to admit that that hit me a little hard because it was my first f, first non a, And my mom didn't really pay him to grade me.

她是付钱让他教我的。

She paid him to teach me.

这让我对整个教育体系产生了质疑。

And and it really made me question the whole system.

对吧？

Right?

学会游泳和学会阅读或做乘法是不一样的。

So learning how to swim is not the same as learning how to read or do multiplication.

但让我感到震惊的是，老师对拉希德说：‘你没学会游泳。’

But what I'm struck by here is that the teacher told Rashid, you didn't learn how to swim.

换句话说，错在拉希德。

In other words, the fault was with Rashid.

我们并不了解这个具体案例的所有细节，玛丽·海伦，但这位老师本可以如何以不同的方式处理这种情况呢？

Now we don't know all the particulars of this particular case, Mary Helen, but how could this teacher have approached the situation differently?

首先，拉希德，我真的很抱歉。

Well, first, I'm I'm so sorry, Rashid.

我能感受到你的痛苦。

I I feel your pain.

我认为太多人曾在本应是发展性、富有启发性且令人愉快的环境中经历过类似的事情——这些环境本应是学习新技能、获得新能力的机会，而对你来说，这似乎是一项从未尝试过、充满风险的新事物。

I think too many of us have had, experiences like this in settings that are meant to be, you know, developmental, that are meant to be enriching and enjoyable and opportunities to really learn something new that's a useful skill that you are wanting to have, that's a new and for you, sounds like something a risk you'd never done before.

对吧？

Right?

一项全新的事物。

Something new.

然后，你却被他人评判为失败者。

And then, you know, you were sort of judged by someone else as having been a failure.

对吧？

Right?

就是， literally，f。

Like, literally, f.

所以我认为，老师一开始就觉得游泳课的目的是让你在最后一天能游起来，这在某种意义上是对的。

So I I think the teacher came to it with the idea that the purpose of swimming lessons is for you to be able to swim on the last day, which is, in a sense, true.

但问题不仅仅是结果是什么。

But the question is not just what's the output.

而是过程是什么。

It's what's the process.

在这方面，我认为老师完全错过了重点。

And there, I think the teacher has totally missed missed the point.

你知道吗，拉希德的问题让我反思到，玛丽·海伦，在整个教育体系中，老师教学生，然后给学生打分。

You know, Rashid's question is making me reflect on the fact, Mary Helen, that throughout the educational system, you know, teachers teach students, but then they grade students.

当然，在某种程度上，这看起来直觉上很明显。

And, of course, at some level, this seems intuitively obvious.

这就是老师所做的。

This is what teachers do.

你通过评分来判断学生是否掌握了这些内容。

You grade the student to see if the student has mastered the material.

但在某种程度上，这些互动中的每一个都有点像拉希德所谈论的，即最终老师问的是：你学会这些内容了吗？

But at some level, every one of these interactions is a little bit like what Rashid was talking about, which is that at the end of the day, the teacher is asking, Have you learned the material?

而不是问：我是否成功地让你投入到学习过程中，与这些内容产生共鸣？

As opposed to asking, Have I managed to engage you with the material, successfully bring you in into the process of learning?

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为更进一步的是，老师现在最应该问的问题是：在我引导你接触这些内容的过程中，你是如何与之互动的？

And I would say even more than that, the the most immediate question the teacher's asking or should be asking is, how have you been engaging with this material as I've been facilitating your your invitation into it?

对吧？

Right?

你的思维过程是怎样的？我该如何调整我们共同所处的环境，以便让你最大限度地受益并享受这次学习机会？

What has the thought process been like for you, and how can I, shape the context that we're in together in a way that will invite you to make the most productive, enjoyable use of this opportunity possible?

所以，玛丽·黑伦，我们在之前的讨论中谈到的核心理念是你所说的‘超越性思维’。

So the central idea that we talked about in our earlier discussion, Mary Helen, was a concept that you called transcendent thinking.

对于那些错过之前对话或忘记细节的听众来说，什么是超越性思维？

For listeners who missed the earlier conversation or have forgotten the details, what is transcendent thinking?

是的。

Yeah.

我们称这种现象为超越性思维，因为这是我们与生俱来的倾向：试图从我们所见证的事物中提炼出更深层的意义，去理解并探索‘为什么’、‘怎么会这样’、‘还有别的可能吗’、‘这件事的历史是什么’？

So we're calling this thing transcendent thinking because it's our natural proclivity to start to make deeper meaning out of the things we're witnessing, to try to understand and grapple with the why, the how come, the how else, the what is the history of this?

它的背后有什么故事？

What's the story behind it?

隐藏的意图是什么？

What are the hidden intentions?

背后有哪些信念？

What are the beliefs?

是什么样的价值观在驱动这一切？

What are the values that motivate this?

这与情境中各方所带入的身份有何关联？

How does it connect to the identities that those in the situation bring?

当我们随着时间推移逐步展开时，它如何预示出可能的不同未来？

How does it, foretell possible different kinds of futures as we play it out over time?

因此，这种能力——能够超越你直接感知和观察到的当前细节，去思考这些细节如何与更宏大的理念、强有力的价值观、信念和故事、概念相连接——这就是我们所说的超越性思维。

So, that ability to sort of move beyond the immediate current details of the things you can directly discern and witness and infer from a situation and to grapple with how those connect to bigger ideas and powerful, values and beliefs and stories, and concepts, that that's what we're calling transcendent thinking.

你知道，我想回到之前的话题

You know, I want to go back

关于拉希德刚才提出的关于学习游泳的问题。

to Rashid's question a second ago about learning to swim.

我认为我能够理解拉希德的感受，因为我自己也是成年后才学会游泳的。

And I think I empathize with Rashid because I didn't learn to swim until I was an adult myself.

但近年来，我已经成了游泳方面的一个学习者。

But I have become something of a student of swimming in recent years.

当我现在思考游泳时，我想的是流体动力学。

And when I think about swimming now, I'm thinking about hydrodynamics.

我在思考平衡。

I'm thinking about balance.

我在思考摩擦力。

I'm thinking about friction.

我在思考我们通过水推动自己前进的各种方式。

I'm thinking of all the ways in which we propel ourselves through the water.

但我也在思考人们在获得游泳设施、教练和学习机会方面的不平等，以及这种不平等是如何体现的。

But I'm also thinking about all the ways in which people have unequal access to swimming facilities, unequal access to coaching and learning and how that manifests itself.

那么，谁学会了游泳，谁没有学会。

Then who learns to swim and who does not.

在某种程度上，所有这些是否都是超验思维的例子？即，你有这项活动本身，但这项活动随后成为思考这些更大问题的跳板？

And in some ways, would all of these be examples of transcendent thinking, which is you have the activity itself, but the activity then becomes a springboard into thinking about these bigger questions?

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我认为这是一个很好的例子。

I think that's a beautiful example.

对吧？

Right?

游泳以及它如何使人们在不同历史时期参与特定类型的运动或活动，所有这些，你作为一个成熟的思考者，现在都能将这些思考融入到这一具体的行动中，即你具备以超越性的方式思考具体、以行动为导向的目标的能力。

And then swimming and the ways in which it's enabled people to engage in particular kinds of sports or particular kinds of historical activities over time and all of that that you now as a mature adult thinker bring to this one concrete activity, that is your capacity to think transcendently about concrete action oriented goals.

所以，在你的例子中，商卡尔，你学会了游泳，但你也以更广阔的方式理解了学习游泳这一行为，它与他人以及社会性和社会获取的更广泛议题联系在一起。

So in in your example, Shankar, you've learned to swim, but you've also understood the act of learning to swim in this much broader way that connects to other people and to broader issues of sociality and societal access.

这正是深入思考学习某事物的精彩之处。

That's the highlight of a really thoughtful way of learning about something.

我们如何在学校中支持年轻人经常性地进行这种思考？

How do we support young people in engaging in that kind of thinking routinely in school?

你说，我们需要在教育中做出的一个重大改变是，不应首先关注教学内容，而应首先关注每个学生的成长。

You say that one of the major changes we need to make in education is that rather than focus first on the material, we should focus first on the development of each student.

为什么这种哲学上的重新定位如此重要？

Why is that philosophical reframe important?

我们正在认识到，自我成长和有意义学习的能力，远远不止于简单地将零散的信息像文件一样储存在大脑中，然后在需要时提取出来；学习过程中最重要、最核心的方面，是将这些信息与我们作为学习者在空间中的主观体验联系起来，感受到学习的机会。

Think what we're learning is that the ability to grow yourself and to learn in meaningful ways goes far beyond just simply, you know, storing away, stashing away in your brain like a file door, little pieces of information that you then retrieve on cue that the most important sort of central aspect of the learning process that enables you to have information, to recall that information, and to utilize it advantageously, effectively in the world moving forward comes through the connection of this information into our subjective experience of being in the space as a learner and feeling the opportunity to learn.

我们在学习过程中所经历的情感思维过程，成为了承载所有信息的挂衣架。

The emotional thought processes that we engage in as we think our way through learning opportunities become the kind of hat stand on which all the information is hooked.

因此，要重新接触这些信息，你需要重新体验整个学习过程，这真正引导我们重新审视教育中什么才是核心以及起点。

And so to get back into that information, you re experience the whole of the enterprise, and it really points us to a new view of what's central and what the starting point is in education.

不要想着如何让这个人达到某个终点，而是思考：这个人是谁？

Rather than thinking about how do I get this person to this end point, you think, who is this person?

我该如何帮助他们以一种能促进自我成长的方式去思考这些新内容，使这些内容成为他们自身的一部分，成为他们理解世界的方式？

How can I facilitate them experiencing this opportunity to think about this new content in a way that they will grow themselves into someone for whom this content is part of who they are and how they understand the world?

在我们上一次的对话中，玛丽·海伦，你提到了一个令人震惊的例子：一位老师试图向学生传授一些数学概念。

In our last conversation, Mary Helen, you cited the astonishing example of a teacher who was trying to communicate some math concepts to her students.

但她并没有仅仅传授数学概念，而是帮助学生们理解这些数学概念如何应用于他们社区中的人们。

But rather than simply communicate the math concepts, she helped them see how these math concepts apply to people who lived in their community.

你能再给我讲一遍这个故事吗？

Can you tell me that story one more time?

当然。

Yeah.

我很乐意讲。

I'd be happy to.

这位了不起的老师，泰拉尼亚·诺法尔，一直和她的代数二班学生研究指数增长和二次方程。

So this amazing teacher, Telania Norfar, had been working with her algebra two class on exponential growth and quadratic equations.

她知道，为了让学习真正与孩子们的生活相关，让他们深刻投入并积极参与理解这些知识的应用和意义，必须将课程设计成某种服务社区的公共机会，这对孩子们来说极具激励作用。

And she knew that in order to make the learning really relevant for the kids and to make them deeply committed to learning it and deeply engaged with the process of understanding how it applies and what it's for, that to build that lesson into, some kind of civic opportunity to help in the community is deeply motivating to kids.

这不仅帮助他们学习数学，还帮助他们将数学置于更广泛的生活技能和学习机会中，促进他们在社会层面的成长。

It both helps them to learn the math and helps them situate the math in a broader life skill and learning opportunity to develop themselves socially too.

因此，她在课程中做了件非常出色的事：她教孩子们如何计算二次方程、如何运用指数增长，然后让他们参与一个项目，担任来自他们社区家庭的财务顾问，帮助这些家庭解决如何支付子女大学学费、如何未来购房、如何管理财务以及如何规划财务等问题。

And so what she did in her lesson, which is brilliant, is she taught the kids, you know, how to calculate quadratic equations, how to use exponential growth, and then they applied it in a project where they became financial advisers to families from their communities who, you know, were struggling to figure out how do I pay for my children's college, how might I purchase a home someday, how do I organize my finances, and think about how I should plan.

孩子们在课堂上的技术知识与向家庭和社区成员通俗解释这些概念之间架起了桥梁，帮助他们的家人规划出他们想要的未来。

And so the kids actually worked between the technical knowledge of the classroom and the more layperson applied ways of explaining things to families and their communities and then helped their family to figure out, how to plan for the future that they wanted.

当你观察这些年轻人——她的学生在这一活动中的表现时，你会惊叹于他们严肃的态度、全神贯注的投入和对数学的深度专注，因为他们知道，这门数学是帮助我为社区做出贡献的有用而重要的工具。

And when you watch the young people, her students in this activity, it's just amazing to see the serious demeanor, the engagement, the deep focus they bring to their math because they know this math is a useful, important way for me to help contribute to my community.

而且我必须认真对待，以真正能积极影响他人生活的方式去运用它，这至关重要。

And it's really important that I do it right and that I'm actually putting in in a way that will move other people's lives in a positive direction.

那种因全身心投入并出色完成工作而产生的内在满足感，真正改变了你这个人，让你以一种深刻的方式学习，从而让你对自身在世界中的角色有了不同的理解，并将数学思维融入这一角色中——这就足够了。

Just that inner sense of satisfaction that comes from deeply engaging in a job well done that really changed you as a person that helped you deeply learn in a way that makes you understand your own role differently in the world and integrates, in this case, mathematical thinking into that role, that's enough.

这正是孩子们所追求的。

That is what kids live for.

这正是我们所有人所追求的。

It's what we all live for.

‘超越’这个词让我想到敬畏这类概念，比如我们看到流星或造访大峡谷时所感受到的那种情绪。

The word transcendence makes me think of concepts like awe, the feeling we get when we see a shooting star or visit a place like the Grand Canyon.

我们过去在节目中曾讨论过敬畏感以及它为何对我们有益。

We've talked in the past on the show about feelings of awe and why they might be beneficial to us.

我们收到了一位名叫罗斯的老师提出的、与此相关的问题。

We received a question that's somewhat related from a teacher named Rose.

她在这里。

Here she is.

我听完你们关于大脑如何学习的播客后，不禁想问：是否还能进一步探讨一下美好事物的影响？你们似乎开始谈到‘惊奇’这个概念，以及它如何与学生的学习、求知欲和特定兴趣相关联。

I'm just wondering after listening to your podcast on how our brains learn, if there's any more that could also be said about the impact of things that are beautiful or, you seem to, like, start to talk about the concept of wonder and how that relates to a student's learning and desire to learn more and to have specific interests.

但我还对它如何与其他方面产生联系感兴趣，特别是我很想知道让学生聆听美妙的音乐、观看美好的事物或创作优美的项目，会对学生的学习和进步产生怎样的影响。

But I'm also just interested in how it kind of touches on other things too and in particular I'm just very interested in the concept of letting students hear beautiful music or see beautiful things or create beautiful projects and what that does to a student's learning and progress.

玛丽·海伦，超越性思维与美和敬畏感之间有什么联系呢？

How is the concept of transcendent thinking connected to beauty and feelings of awe, Mary Helen?

我觉得你这个联系太棒了，罗斯，因为如果你试着思考，究竟是什么让我们人类能够欣赏美、体验敬畏、产生好奇，我们实际上是在寻找更深层、更宏大的意义，寻找事物为何如此发生或可能发生的感情原因。

I think this is just an amazing connection you make, Rose, because if you try to think about what is it that actually enables us as human beings to appreciate beauty, to experience an emotion like awe, to wonder, What we're really saying is we are looking for the deeper, bigger meaning, the emotional reason why things happen the way they do or could happen.

这触及了我们研究中发现的超越性思维与情感之间的一个根本联系。

And that taps into a fundamental connection that we found in our work between transcendent thinking and emotion.

例如，伦敦大学学院的萨米尔·扎基多年前做过一项精彩的研究，他们给数学家们展示了所谓‘优美’的方程和所谓‘笨拙’或‘丑陋’的方程。

Samir Zaki, for example, at University College London has a beautiful study from some years ago with mathematicians in which they showed mathematicians, equations that are quote unquote beautiful and equations that are quote unquote awkward or ugly.

专家们已经知道什么是‘优美’，这一点本身就说明了成为数学专家到底意味着什么。

And just the fact that that experts in math knew what you mean by this already tells you what it actually means to be an expert in math.

成为专家意味着，当你看到一个方程时，你能在脑海中想象它如何被用来解释世界中那些重要的现象。

To be an expert means I can see an equation and imagine in my mind all the powerful ways it could be used to explain phenomena in the world that matter.

这种在多种情境中进行推演和应用的能力，正是超越性的本质所在。

That ability to extrapolate and apply in many contexts is the essence of transcendence again.

因此，超越性可以应用于美学和美好的事物，但令人惊叹的是，能够以超越性的方式开始思考概念，可以帮助我们赋予这些概念以美感，即使这些概念对于非专家来说可能并不被认为是‘美丽’的，比如一个数学方程。

So, transcendence can apply to things that are aesthetic and beautiful, but the wonderful thing is that the act of being able to begin to grapple transcendently with concepts can help us to imbue those concepts with beauty even when those concepts are things that people who are not experts may not think of as quote unquote beautiful like a math equation.

在学习新事物时感受到兴奋和敬畏是一种美妙的体验。

Feeling excitement and awe while learning something new is a wonderful experience.

但我们能否在教育体系中持续培养超越性思维呢？

But is it possible to consistently cultivate transcendent thinking in our educational systems?

我们回来后，听听教师的观点。

When we come back, the teacher's perspective.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

想象一下你曾经遇到过的最好的老师。

Picture in your mind the best teacher you ever had.

是什么让这个人让你难以忘怀？

What was it that made this person memorable?

他们是否让你对以前不感兴趣的知识产生了热情？

Did they make you excited about ideas you hadn't cared about?

他们是否帮助你克服了学习阅读的障碍，或者以一种让你理解的方式解释了数学概念？

Did they help you overcome a hurdle in learning how to read or explain a math concept in a way that made it understandable?

他们是否发现了其他人未曾注意到的学习障碍？

Did they spot a learning disability that no one else had noticed?

或者是否察觉到家庭问题影响了你的专注力？

Or see how problems at home were affecting your ability to concentrate?

优秀的老师深刻地塑造了学生的人生轨迹。

Great teachers profoundly shaped the trajectory of their students' lives.

但我们对老师寄予的期望和压力——要激励学生、培育成长、掌握复杂的课程要求、兼任事实上的社会工作者——这一切都可能令人不堪重负。

But the pressure and expectations we put on teachers to inspire, to nurture, to master complex curricular requirements, to serve as de facto social workers, it can all be overwhelming.

我们在与玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨的早期对话后，听到了多位教师对这一现实的反馈。

We heard from a number of teachers living this reality in response to our earlier conversation with Mary Helen Immordino Yang.

她是南加州大学的心理学家和神经科学家，著有《情感、学习与情感神经科学的教育意义》。

She's a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California and author of Emotions, Learning, and the exploring the educational implications of affective neuroscience.

玛丽·海伦，我想在本节中聚焦教师的视角。

Mary Helen, I'd like to focus in this segment on the perspective of teachers.

我们收到一位名叫艾琳的教师的邮件，她写道：我们受制于不切实际的教学进度安排、标准化的课程、各学科的州立标准，这些都极少允许学生追求个人兴趣，教师被要求覆盖过多的教学内容，且长期缺课现象急剧上升。

We received an email from a teacher named Aileen who writes, we are at the mercy of unrealistic pacing guides, scripted curriculums, state standards in every subject that allow for little deviation for students to pursue individual interests, unrealistic demands on teachers to cover too many content areas, and the meteoric rise in chronic absenteeism.

您的嘉宾对于在这些背景下实施这些理念，是否有任何切实可行的解决方案？

Does your guest have any meaningful realistic solutions for implementing the ideas in these contexts?

参与感是关键，建立与孩子及其家庭的关系也很重要，但这不足以解决教育的根本问题。

Engagement is key, along with building relationships with children and their families, but it isn't enough to solve education's problems.

我建议您的嘉宾在州和国家层面倡导对从学龄前到十二年级的教育体系进行全面改革，而不是将所有责任都压在教师身上。

I suggest your guest advocate at a state and national level for the overhaul of pre k through twelfth grade education instead of putting the onus solely on teachers.

教授和神经科学家在象牙塔中的声音，很少能传达到那些严重缺乏信息、却在制定课程决策的政客那里。

The message rarely gets from professors or neuroscientists in the ivory tower to the woefully uninformed politicians who are making decisions about curriculum.

不幸的是，教师们并不能决定课程内容。

Teachers, unfortunately, are not calling the shots about curriculum.

所以，玛丽·海伦，我想我能听出艾琳的批评，也能感受到她背后所蕴含的痛苦与挫败。

So, Mary Helen, I think I can hear both Aileen's critique, but also the place of hurt and frustration that this is coming from.

你会如何回应她呢？

How would you respond to her?

哦，艾琳，你完全正确。

Oh, Aileen, you are absolutely 100% right.

我们自己也在南加州大学以及我的许多同事共同努力，彻底改革教育体系。

And we are working very hard ourselves at USC and many of my colleagues to overhaul the education system.

为了改善学校的表现和学业水平——顺便说一句，这些水平目前也处于历史低点——我们不得不狠抓基础，缩小范围，标准化教学内容。

So what we've done to design schools to improve, outcomes and achievement levels, which, by the way, are also at historic lows, is to buckle down on basics, to narrow things, to script things, to standardize.

在某种程度上，这或许说得通，但不幸的是，这完全违背了人类实际成长和学习的方式。

And at one level that could make sense, unfortunately, it is completely contrary to the ways that human beings actually grow and learn.

我们是通过主动体验、对内容的主观情感体验来成长和学习的。

We grow and learn through the active experiencing, the subjective emotional experiencing of content.

这使得像你这样的老师，艾琳，处于一个非常艰难的境地，因为你知道孩子们真正需要的，与你被要求教授的内容并不一致。

This leaves teachers like yourself, Eileen, in a really difficult place because you know what your children need is not what you are required to give them.

我们真正需要做的是退后一步，提醒老师们：最终，孩子们是在你们以及你们的校长和管理人员的照料之下。

What we really need to do is step back, and for teachers, remind yourselves that ultimately the children are under your care and the care of your principals and administrators.

我们需要保护那些为孩子们利益而工作的教师和管理人员，帮助他们获得所需的自主权，以便在课程中融入能够帮助年轻人尽可能茁壮成长的结构，同时推动整个体系的变革。

And we need to protect our teachers and our administrators who are working on behalf of children by helping them to have the autonomy they need to build into their curricula the kinds of structures that will enable young people to thrive as best as we can while also working to change the system.

但我们能做的，是尽最大努力减轻这些做法的伤害，通过以一种对孩子们和我们的教学实践更有利的方式去解读它们，使这些标准在课堂情境中不那么突出，让孩子们和家庭明白，他们可以放松、安定下来，开始接触课程中的内容——这些内容虽然来自标准化课程，但他们仍能逐步找到应对和适应的方法。

But what we can do to the best of our ability is to mitigate their harms by interpreting them in a way for young people and for our practice that puts them in a less prominent place in the classroom context so that kids and families understand that they can exhale, they can settle in, they can start to engage with ideas that are in that curriculum, they are in that standardized curriculum, and they can start to build out ways to work and move through it.

但我完全支持你，艾琳。

But I am 100% with you, Eileen.

我们必须根据年轻人的发展需求，重新思考我们教育体系的规范与目标。

We really need to rethink the norms and the aims of our education system in light of the developmental needs of our young people.

让我明确说明一下。

And let me be very clear.

这绝不是降低标准或减少孩子们接触内容的委婉说法。

This is not code speak for lowering standards or making less content available to kids.

这意味着我们的教学和学习采取了一种根本不同的取向。

This means we teach and we learn in a fundamentally different orientation.

我们以人为核心，关注他们对这一过程的体验，我们思考的不是学习作为结果，而是学习作为手段，结果是人的发展。

We start with the human being at the center, their experience of the process, and we think not about the learning as the outcome, but the learning as the means, the outcome as the human development.

一位名叫查尔斯的老师来电，表达了关于如何在大规模范围内切实实施超越性思维的担忧。

A teacher named Charles called in with a concern about how to realistically implement transcendent thinking at scale.

你好。

Hi.

我当老师已经超过二十五年了。

I've been a teacher for over twenty five years.

在这段时间里，我一直在努力营造出像节目中所描述的那种课堂环境。

During this time, I've worked really hard to create classroom environments very much like the ones described in the episode.

问题一直在于可扩展性。

The issue has always been scalability.

我无数次被告知，我所做的一切都是我独有的。

I've been told countless times that the way that I do things is unique to me.

事实上，我刚刚离开了讲台，这是二十多年来第一次，为了创办一家非营利组织，试图解决这个问题。

In fact, I just stepped out of the classroom for the first time in over twenty five years to start a nonprofit to try to dispel that issue.

讽刺的是，当我离开教室后，我设计的那些让学生获得更多现实经验、更多学习自主权的课程就消失了。

And ironically, as I've left the classroom, the courses that I've created that have given students more real world experience, more autonomy in their learning are gone.

学校在我离开后无法维持这些课程，尽管多年来我多次努力营造一个让其他教师学习和参与的环境，我使用的教学材料也经过精心设计和组织，我还提供了支持。

The school was unable to sustain them without my presence, despite my many attempts over the years to create an environment in which other teachers learned and became involved, and the materials that I used in class were well developed and organized, and I had offered support.

所以，我的问题大概是关于可扩展性。

So my question, I guess, is around scalability.

这些理念在课堂上有多大的可扩展性，能够创造出我认为学生迫切需要的环境？

How scalable are these ideas in classrooms to create environments that I think are so desperately needed for students?

所以，玛丽·海伦，查尔斯在很多方面都和你看法一致，但他提出的是一个实际的问题。

So, Mary Helen, Charles is clearly on the same page as you in many ways, but is asking, I think, a practical question.

这是否仅仅依赖于个别杰出的教师，还是可以被规模化？

Does this simply rely on the individual brilliant teacher, or can this be scaled?

查尔斯，感谢你为孩子们的服务，以及你现在在非营利组织中的辛勤工作。

Well, Charles, thank you for your service to kids and for your hard work now in a nonprofit.

令人遗憾的是，你的故事并非独一无二。

And sadly, your story is not a unique one.

我经常听到类似的故事：有一位独特的‘独角兽’教师，为孩子们设计了所有这些精彩的学习体验。

I hear this kind of story a lot where there's one unique sort of unicorn teacher who has designed all these amazing experiences for kids.

但一旦他们离开，其他人就无法维持下去，这些项目逐渐消亡，或者被告知无法规模化。

And as soon as they step away from it, others, can't sustain it, and it it peters out and or they are told this can't scale.

这是一些特别而独特的东西。

This is something special and unique.

我们真正需要做的是回归根本，改变我们培训和支持教师的方式，以及评估课堂中学生的做法。

What we really need to do is go back and change the ways in which we train and support our teachers and then the ways in which we assess our young people in our classrooms.

你无法规模化你所不理解的东西。

You can't scale what you don't understand.

我认为，最终的问题，也是你的精彩课程在你转行后消失的原因，是你的同事们虽然能欣赏你所做的一切，却缺乏理解你为何以及如何这样设计课程的技能。

And the ultimate problem, I think, and the reason maybe why your amazing lessons were lost after you moved to a different career line is that your colleagues around you could appreciate the amazing things you were doing, but they didn't actually have the skill to understand why and how you developed it that way.

我们真正需要做的是帮助教师理解，他们的工作本质是成为课堂中的发展科学家。

What we really need to do is help teachers to understand that the nature of their work is to be like scientists in the classroom, developmental scientists.

你在课堂中以观察者的身份穿梭。

You move through your class as an observer.

你在提问，你在思考，你在试图弄清楚孩子们在这里是如何思考和感受的。

You're inquiring, you're wondering, you're trying to figure out how are young people thinking and feeling here.

他们是如何理解事物的？

How are they understanding things?

他们是如何体验学习过程的？

How are they experiencing the learning process?

鉴于我所观察到的，以及与他们合作，我该如何创造富有吸引力的机会，让他们以一种既能促进高阶思维与学习，又能让他们真正拥有学习自主权的方式去体验事物，就像你的课程那样？

And how might I, given what I'm witnessing, working together with them, build out inviting opportunities for them to experience things in a way that both promotes high level thinking and learning and enables them to own it in the way your lessons had?

过去几年里，人们大量讨论了屏幕，尤其是手机，以及它们如何影响儿童的专注力和学习能力。

There's been a lot of discussion in the past few years about screens, particularly cell phones, and how they affect children's ability to focus and learn.

在过去几年中，另一种引起教育工作者广泛关注的技术是人工智能。

Another technology that's also generated a lot of concern among educators over the last couple of years is artificial intelligence.

以下是听众桑吉塔就这一问题提出的问题。

Here's listener Sangeetha with a question on that front.

十三年来，我一直在非营利部门从事家长教育项目，支持家庭和儿童。

For over thirteen years, I've worked in the nonprofit sector developing parent education programs and supporting families and children.

在此期间，我亲眼目睹了迅速发展的数字环境，以及如今由人工智能驱动的环境，如何重塑了童年、青春期和育儿方式。

Over this time, I've seen firsthand how the rapidly evolving digital and now AI driven landscape is reshaping childhood, adolescence, and parenting.

许多家长，尤其是来自弱势背景的家长，感到不知所措，缺乏指导孩子应对这些变化的准备。

Many parents, particularly those from vulnerable backgrounds, feel overwhelmed and underprepared to guide their children through these changes.

因此，我希望能向伊莫迪诺·杨博士提问。

I was therefore hoping to ask Doctor.

随着人工智能持续改变教育，大部分研究和创新都集中在支持教师和学校上。

Imodino Yang that as AI continues to transform education, much of the research and innovation focuses on supporting teachers and schools.

但家长，尤其是低收入、低识字率或移民背景的家长，常常被忽视。

But parents, especially those from low income, low literacy, or migrant backgrounds, are often left behind.

她会给像我这样致力于弥合这一差距、帮助家长在人工智能时代更好地支持孩子的教育工作者什么建议或见解呢？

What advice or insights would she offer to educators like me who are working to bridge this gap and help parents better support their children in an AI driven world.

玛丽·海伦，你怎么看？

What do you think, Mary Helen?

超验思维如何与人工智能世界产生交集？

How does transcendent thinking intersect with the world of artificial intelligence?

嗯，再次说明，桑吉塔，你不是第一个注意到这一点的人，你的观察完全正确。

Well, again, Sangeetha, I'll say you are not the first person to notice this, and you are absolutely right to say this.

我认为有很多人对此感到担忧，而且正如你所说，现在也大力推动将人工智能引入课堂。

I think there are many people who are concerned about it, and there's also, like you say, a huge push toward bringing AI into the classroom.

在这方面的主要工作是帮助教师学会如何有效利用这些技术。

And the main work in that direction has been on how to help teachers learn how to leverage these technologies effectively.

这很重要。

That's important.

但更重要、更紧迫的是，我认为这正是你问题的核心：这些机会如何塑造了年轻人的思考方式和情感体验，如何影响他们对自我的认知，以及如何建立参与感和动力？

But what is even more important and even more pressing, which is, I think, the essence of your question, is how are these opportunities shaping the way our young people think and feel, conceptualize a sense of self, build engagement and motivation?

与没有这些媒介的时代相比，借助这些技术媒介进行思考意味着什么？

What does it mean to think with these technological mediators as compared to in ways that we did without these mediators?

这可能会如何改变我们作为人类的发展本质？

And how might that be changing the nature of our development as human beings?

我们不知道这些问题的答案，但就你问题的后半部分——如何支持你所服务的父母、家庭和孩子——我想说的是：

We don't know the answers to those questions, but here's what I would say in terms of the second half of your question, which is how should you support the parents and families and children that you're working with?

我认为你需要信任父母，并帮助他们相信，他们知道如何做一个有血有肉的人，知道如何爱和照顾自己的孩子。

I think you need to trust and help parents trust that they know what it means to be a human being and they know how to love and care for their children.

在这个时代，他们比以往任何时候都更需要与孩子保持深度联结，理解孩子思考和参与学业的方式，并与孩子一起反思他们在面对这些技术时的经历，与他们共同完成学习任务，观察他们在接触这些技术时发生的变化，并思考：我们希望孩子成为什么样的人？哪些使用方式是恰当且有效的，能提升效率？哪些方式却可能干扰了孩子在成长过程中必须亲自面对和探索的学习与发展环节，而这些正是他们建立自我效能感和主动学习能力所必需的体验。

They need, in this space more than ever, to stay deeply connected with their children and with their children's ways of thinking and engaging with their schoolwork and to reflect with those kids about the experiences they have in thinking through these things, to work with them on their work, to notice what kinds of changes are happening in their kids as they're engaging in these technologies, and think about what do we want for our children, which kinds of uses are appropriate and effective and are making us more efficient, and which kinds may be interfering with aspects of the learning or developmental process that kids want and need to grapple with in order to really build for themselves the experience of being an efficacious, agentic learner.

当我们把学校教育的目标具体化、简化为某些所谓‘当下社会所需’的特定技能时，我们常常忽略了：学习这项技能本身，是如何改变一个人的发展的？

And when we are concretizing and reducing the aims of our educational experiences in school to the output of particular kinds of skills that may be quote unquote relevant to the world today, oftentimes what we're forgetting is how does the learning of that skill change the development of the person?

这些问题，正是我们需要不断自问的。

And those are the questions we need to be asking ourselves.

我常举的例子是：给孩子使用AI来完成一些过去他们必须自己掌握的基础技能，现在AI能代劳了，那为什么还要教他们呢？

The example I use to explain this is that giving kids AI to learn to do something basic that, you know, they before would have needed to know, but now AI can do it, so why bother teaching them?

这就像告诉八个月大孩子的父母：‘别费心鼓励孩子爬行了。’

It's kind of the same thing as telling parents of eight month olds, Oh, don't bother encouraging your child to crawl.

你这辈子再也不会用到爬行这个技能了——谁还爬行啊？

You're never gonna use that skill again in your real Who crawls?

除非你把东西掉到沙发底下，否则你永远不需要做这个，对吧？

Unless you lose something under the couch, you're never gonna need to do this, right?

直接骑上自行车，开始骑行，开始跑步，对吧？

Just get right up on a bicycle, start riding, start running, right?

当然，婴儿爬行并不是因为爬行是一项终身有用的生存技能。

Of course, infants don't crawl because crawling is a useful life skill forever.

他们爬行是因为爬行这种行为使他们获得了某种与世界互动的方式，从而有助于他们在神经和心理上逐步发展。

They crawl because the act of crawling enables certain kind of positionality in the world, which helps them to develop themselves neurologically, psychologically over time.

爬行激活了与运动、思考、反思、规划和动作相关的神经网络，这些网络后来成为不涉及爬行的健康行为的基础。

And crawling is engaging networks for motion, for thinking, for reflection, for planning, for movement that then become the basis for healthy kinds of behavior that don't involve crawling later.

当我们思考自己希望孩子拥有什么时，我们必须回归这种逻辑。

We need really to return to that logic when we're asking ourselves what we want for our children.

我们需要再次戴上科学的帽子，戴上深思熟虑的帽子。

We need, again, to put on those scientific hats, those thoughtful hats.

我们需要与年轻人互动，思考他们是如何使用技术的。

We need to engage with our young people and think about how are they using the technology?

他们是如何体验这一点的？

How are they experiencing this?

他们是否在以我所不熟悉的不同形式参与我想让他们参与的大问题，而我并不是像他们那样天生就适应AI的一代？

Are they engaging with the big ideas I want them to engage with, but they're doing it in a different format that I'm not used to because I wasn't an AI native the way they are?

还是他们实际上绕过了我们为他们重视的发展过程？

Or are they actually circumventing developmental processes that we value for them?

这是否导致了他们发展中的某些缺陷或差异，而这些是存在问题的？

And is that leading to certain kinds of holes or differences in their development which are problematic?

我认为，目前我们在使用AI时，这两种情况都真实存在，我们真的需要弄清楚，在当今世界，我们希望我们的孩子如何发展，这应当成为指导我们设计AI应用的北极星。

And I would argue that instances of both are existing in our use of AI right now, and we need really to get to the bottom of how we want our young children to develop in today's world, and that should be the driving north star toward which we point our designs that are gonna leverage AI.

在某种程度上，这回应了我们对话开始时你提到的观点，即你关注的是人，而不是学习。

And in some ways, this speaks to what you said at the start of our conversation, is you're focusing on the person and not on the learning.

所以，我认为目前教育者和家长都很担忧。

So I think right now, educators and parents are worried.

如果我的孩子直接交上一篇论文，而不是自己动手写，也许他就没有学会如何写论文。

If my kid basically turns in an essay instead of actually writing the essay himself, perhaps he's not learning how to write the essay.

确实如此。

And that's true.

但你所说的实际上是更深层的观点。

But what you're saying is actually the deeper point.

这个人没有掌握这种发展技能意味着什么？

What does it mean that this person hasn't learned this developmental skill?

是否有可能这个步骤我们可以直接跳过，如果是这样，那也没关系？

Is it possible this is a step that we could just skip over and go past, in which case it's fine?

如果这最终成为对这个人两年、五年、二十年后至关重要的某件事中的关键一步呢？

What if this turns out to be an essential step in something that is really important to this person two years, five years, twenty years down the road?

说得Exactly对。

That's exactly right.

所以我们真的需要回过头来思考并审视：这个学习活动的实际目标是什么？

So we really need to think back and look and say, what is the goal of this learning exercise, actually?

是为了在纸上移动铅笔吗？

Is it to move your pencil on the paper?

有时候，这实际上可能发生在你五岁或六岁的时候，对吧？

Sometimes it actually may be when you're five or you're six years old, right?

而你通过手写实际上是在学习运动技能和规划技能。

And that you're actually learning motor skill and planning skill by learning to handwrite.

后来你是否会打字并不重要。

It doesn't matter if you can type later.

以有计划的方式移动手部这一行为，实际上对大脑的发展具有重要的促进作用？

The act of learning to move your hand in these planful ways turns out to have important developmental affordances for the brain?

还是说，这是一项我们其实已经不再需要的技能，现代社会可以跳过它，因为它似乎并不会培养出未来有用的思维倾向或特质，我们可以放弃它？

Or is this a skill that we really don't need anymore, that modern society can skip over because it's something that doesn't seem to actually develop dispositions or propensities of mind that are going to be useful later, and we can drop it and let it go.

当我们回来时，玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨将回答家长们的提问，并探讨我们今天讨论的这些想法如何不仅适用于课堂上的年轻人，也适用于每个人。

When we come back, Mary Helen Imordino Yang answers questions from parents, And we consider how the ideas we're talking about today apply not just to young people in classrooms, but to everyone.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedantam。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是隐藏的思维。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在南加州大学，玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨研究我们如何教育孩子，以及真正有效的方法，帮助他们成为批判性思考者和创造性问题解决者。

At the University of Southern California, Mary Helen Imordino Yang researches how we teach our children and what really works to help them become critical thinkers and creative problem solvers.

今天，玛丽·海伦加入我们，参与最新一期的‘您的问题解答’，回应听众关于她研究的提问。

Mary Helen joins us today for our latest installment of Your Questions Answered, featuring listeners' questions about her research.

所以，玛丽·海伦，我们收到了许多家长的来信，他们发现您的观点与一些广为人知的教学方法有联系。

So, Mary Helen, we heard from many parents who saw connections between your ideas and other well known pedagogical approaches.

这是克里斯。

Here's Chris.

我非常喜欢这一期节目，因为她所说的内容让我觉得非常直观和显而易见。

I I really enjoyed this episode because what she said to me felt very intuitive and obvious.

我的问题是，她所描述的听起来很像蒙台梭利教育体系。

My question is what she described sounds a lot like the Montessori system.

那么，她所描述的内容与之有何不同，或者根本就没有不同？

So how is what she's describing different, or is it different at all?

谢谢。

Thank you.

蒙特梭利方法是一种以学生自我导向的方式，学生自行决定自己的兴趣所在，并围绕这些兴趣展开学习。

So the Montessori method is a self directed approach where students decide where their interests lie and pursue learning around those interests.

玛丽·海伦，您的研究发现与这一理念相比如何？

How do your findings compare with that idea, Mary Helen?

是的。

Yes.

克里斯，你完全正确，我目前提出的这些观点确实呼应、延伸并融合了长期以来发展出的多种教学方法。

Well, Chris, you're absolutely right that that these ideas that I'm bringing forth now echo and build from and incorporate many kinds of pedagogical approaches that have been developed over ages.

因此，我不会具体讨论蒙特梭利与其他教学方法的差异，这些方法的共同点在于，它们都引导年轻人把握做出选择的机会，并主动参与学习过程。

And so whereas I won't speak to any specific educational approach like Montessori versus others, these approaches vary in that they are focusing young people on the opportunities to make choices and to agentically move through the learning opportunity.

这些学习机会的设计方式，将对年轻人的学习方式产生至关重要的影响。

The ways in which those learning opportunities are set up will have very important implications for the ways in which young people learn.

例如，我和一位名叫索兰热·德内尔沃斯的年轻科学家合作，她在瑞士日内瓦，我们开展了一些研究，比较蒙特梭利课堂体验与传统课堂体验对数学学习的影响，目的是了解这些不同的学习经历是否会影响孩子们在MRI扫描仪中实时处理数学问题的方式。

For example, together with a young scientist named Solange de Nervous, who is in Geneva, Switzerland, we did some studies of the effect of Montessori classroom experience versus traditional classroom experience, and we wanted to understand whether those experiences of learning the math would actually shape the way the kids processed math in real time in an MRI scanner.

因此，索兰热邀请了日内瓦蒙特梭利学校和传统学校的8至12岁数学学生来到她的实验室，在扫描他们大脑的同时，让他们在扫描仪内解决数学问题，以及其他一些任务。

So what we did, Solange had eight to 12 year old math students from, Montessori schools and traditional schools in Geneva, come to her lab and solve math problems in the scanner, among other things, while we were scanning their brain.

我们发现的第一个结果是，在这种情境下，接受蒙特梭利教育的孩子和接受传统教育的孩子解答正确的问题数量相同。

And, the first thing that we found was that the Montessori schooled kids in this context and the traditionally schooled kids got the same number of math problems right.

这很棒，因为这意味着两组孩子都在大量学习数学内容，并且能够解决问题。

That's wonderful because that means now, both groups of kids are learning a lot of math content and can solve problems.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

你本可以就此止步，而传统教育也会就此止步，说：好吧。

You could stop there, and traditional education would stop there saying, okay.

所以，两种教育体系在教授孩子数学方面都是有效的。

So both school systems are effective at teaching kids math.

我们完成了。

We're done.