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这是隐性思维。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是 Shankar Vedanta。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
在20世纪30年代，一位来自路易斯安那州乡村的不太可能的人崛起为政治明星。
In the nineteen thirties, an unlikely man from rural Louisiana rose to political stardom.
休伊·朗以激情澎湃的演讲和民粹主义纲领赢得了工薪阶层美国人的支持。
Huey Long appealed to working class Americans with fiery speeches and a populist agenda.
他承诺提供免费教科书、改善基础设施以及财富再分配。
He promised free textbooks, better infrastructure, and redistribution of wealth.
尽管我们可能有百万富翁，有值两百万、三百万，甚至五百万或六百万的人。
That while we might have millionaires and men worth 2,000,000 and men worth 3,000,000 maybe and men worth maybe 5 or 6,000,000.
但无论如何，必须对一个人能积累的财富上限加以限制。
But that nonetheless, there must be a limit on how big any one man could get.
成千上万的人赶来听他演讲。
Thousands gathered to hear him speak.
他承诺让每个人都能成为国王，很快便赢得了‘鱼王’这个绰号。
His promise to make every man a king soon earned him a nickname, the kingfish.
但休伊·朗在途中也树敌无数。
But Huey Long also made powerful enemies along the way.
批评者认为他是个危险的煽动者。
Critics saw him as a dangerous demagogue.
他们警告说，他腐败、狡猾，完全不顾制衡机制。
They warned that he was crooked, cunning, and completely unconcerned with checks and balances.
他解雇了所有反对他的人，接管了州政府机构，并任命亲信担任要职。
He fired those who opposed him, took over state agencies, and appointed loyalists.
当路易斯安那州立大学发表一篇批评他的报纸文章时，休伊·朗设法让撰写该文的七名学生被开除。
When Louisiana State University published a newspaper article criticizing him, Huey Long saw to it that the seven students who wrote the piece were expelled.
休伊·朗不仅受欢迎。
Huey Long wasn't just popular.
他极具魅力。
He was magnetic.
对一些人来说危险，对另一些人来说神圣。
Dangerous to some, divine to others.
他重写了规则，挑战体制来阻止他。
He rewrote the rules and dared the system to stop him.
1929年，当他成为路易斯安那州州长后，休伊·朗被控受贿、腐败和滥用职权而遭到弹劾。
In 1929, after he became governor of Louisiana, Huey Long was impeached on charges of bribery, corruption, and abuse of power.
他没有证明自己的清白，反而策划了一场州参议院的政治封锁。
Rather than prove his innocence, he orchestrated a political blockade in the state senate.
他说服参议员们签署一封信，承诺不将他定罪，从而使审判变得毫无意义。
He persuaded senators to sign a letter vowing not to convict him, which made a trial pointless.
他后来成为了一名美国参议员。
He went on to become a US senator.
他的受欢迎程度不仅没有消退。
His popularity didn't just survive.
反而飙升了。
It soared.
今天在节目中，我们将深入探讨政治、体育和宗教领域中，那些吸引我们追随魅力型人物的心理力量。
Today on the show, we take a deep dive into the psychological forces that draw us to charismatic figures in the worlds of politics, sports, and religion.
忠诚的科学与奉献的基石。
The science of loyalty and the building blocks of devotion.
本期《隐藏的思维》。
This week on Hidden Brain.
作为一名交易员，你很可能是个派对达人，总是告诉朋友，七巨头股票已经超买，黄金并非如众人所想的那样是避险资产，或者狗狗币可能是下一个比特币。
As a trader, you're probably great fan of parties, always telling your friends that the magnificent seven stocks are overbought, that gold isn't the safe haven everyone thinks it is, or that Doge could be the next Bitcoin.
不过，也许不是最后那一个。
Well, maybe not that.
但如果这听起来像你，相信我们。
But if this sounds like you, trust us.
我们Capital.com觉得你想法非常出色。
We at capital.com think you sound brilliant.
今天就和我们一起探索这些市场以及其他更多领域。
Explore all these markets and more with us today.
Capital.com。
Capital.com.
聪明交易。
Trade smart.
差价合约具有高风险。
CFDs involve a high level of risk.
百分之八十三的零售投资者亏损。
Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.
我们常常借助历史来理解世界的变化。
We often turn to history to understand how the world changes.
我们研究那些引发革命、聚集成千上万人追随其事业的领袖人物。
We examine the lives of leaders who spark revolutions and gather thousands behind their cause.
我们想知道，是什么让这些领袖如此强大？
We ask, what made these leaders so powerful?
他们的影响力从何而来？
What explained their influence?
他们是如何改变历史进程的？
How did they manage to change the course of history?
在北卡罗来纳大学教堂山分校，历史学家莫莉·沃滕探讨了个人如何激发变革、创建运动，有时甚至改变世界。
At the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, historian Molly Worthen explores how individuals inspire change, create movements, and sometimes change the world.
莫莉·沃滕，欢迎来到《隐藏的思维》。
Molly Worthen, welcome to Hidden Brain.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
莫莉，我想聊聊美国历史上一些出人意料的领导者。
Molly, I want to talk about some unlikely leaders in American history.
让我们从十八世纪开始。
Let's start in the eighteenth century.
杰米玛·威尔金森于1752年出生在罗德岛。
Jemima Wilkinson was born in Rhode Island in 1752.
当她23岁时，她病重，濒临死亡。
When she was 23, she fell ill and was on the brink of death.
康复后，她声称自己经历了一次深刻的精神转变。
When she recovered, she claimed to have undergone a profound spiritual transformation.
她声称发生了什么事？
What did she say happened to her?
她说自己看到了两位天使，他们向她传达了一个惊人的信息。
She reported that she had seen two angels, and they had delivered this amazing message to her.
他们告诉她，她的身体已成为圣灵的载体，事实上，23岁的女性杰米玛·威尔金森已经去世。
They told her that her body was a vessel for the Holy Spirit, that in fact, Jemima Wilkinson, the 23 year old human female, had died.
现在，她的身体成为这一无性别神圣存在的载体。
And now her body was a vessel for this androgynous divine presence.
她不再穿着当时女性的常规服饰。
She stopped dressing like a conventional woman of her time.
她尽可能避免使用女性代词，留长发，戴一顶大大的灰色毛毡帽，开始穿一件遮掩身形的长袍，看起来有点像睡袍，有时还系一条紫色领巾，并启动了一场布道运动。
She stopped using female pronouns whenever she could, wore her hair long and wore a large gray felt hat, began dressing in a smock that concealed her figure, looked a bit like a dressing gown, sometimes wore a purple cravat, and she launched a preaching campaign.
在革命的背景下——这是1776年，她经历这场病痛并重生为‘公众普世之友’——她的信息相当模糊，却能兼容当时人们对现有教会的各种神学疑问、对末日的种种忧虑，而这些正是那个时代众多追随者所面临的困惑。
Her message in the the context of the revolution, right, this is 1776 that she has this attack and is reborn as the public universal friend, is a kind of vague one that is, compatible with a lot of different theological questions and doubts about existing churches, questions about the end times that a whole range of followers were having in in this era.
她开始向各种与社会主流节奏格格不入的人群讲话。
And she begins speaking to all kinds of crowds of people who are out of sync, I guess you could say, in some way or another with the prevailing rhythms of society.
她去参加葬礼。
So she goes to funerals.
她向囚犯讲话。
She speaks to prisoners.
她还向露天市场的人群发表演讲。
She also addresses kind of open air markets.
如果有同情她的牧师愿意让她使用讲坛，她就会加以利用。
If a if a sympathetic minister will will give her his pulpit, she takes advantage of that.
有些人慕名而来，听这个让他们难以理解的奇特人物讲话。
And some wander in to to hear this, unusual person who they can't quite place.
也许他们无法确定这究竟是男是女。
Maybe they can't quite figure out if this is a man or a woman.
他们也无法完全理解那些模糊的神学言论的真正含义。
They can't quite make out the the actual import of the the kind of vague theological pronouncements.
有些人觉得这很荒谬。
Some find it ridiculous.
他们认为这是一个穿着怪异服装的年轻女子，但令人惊讶的是，相当多的人——最终有几百人——被她公开邀请的‘普遍朋友’所感召，走出他们在革命美国社会中被赋予的角色，寻找新的生活方式。
They they see this as a young woman who's kind of put on a costume, but a surprising number, I mean, eventually, a few 100 people are compelled by the public universal friends invitation to step out of whatever role you've been handed by your place in revolutionary American society and find something new.
因此，我们谈论的追随者范围很广，从那些尚未融入社会认可的家庭结构的年轻女性，到社区中德高望重的年长男性都有。
And so we're talking about followers who range from young women who perhaps had not quite landed in a a family arrangement that was acceptable in in society to very established kind of senior men in the community.
她最著名的追随者之一是罗德岛的殖民地法官威廉·波特，他将自己的大量个人财富投入到她日益扩大的传道事业中。
One of her most prominent followers is a Rhode Island colonial judge named William Potter, who puts a lot of his, his personal fortune to the service of her growing ministry.
到1790年代，她带领约400名追随者，在纽约州北部建立了一个名为‘新耶路撒冷’的乌托邦社区，以彻底摆脱革命时期美国普通社区的生活节奏。
By the seventeen nineties, she is leading a crew of about 400 followers to found a utopian community that she calls New Jerusalem in Upstate New York to to fully break from the the rhythm of life in ordinary communities in revolutionary era America.
我想跳到十九世纪。
I wanna jump forward to the nineteenth century.
马库斯·加维于1887年出生于牙买加。
Marcus Garvey was born in 1887 in Jamaica.
他在青少年时期当过印刷学徒，后来加入了一个倡导牙买加独立的民族主义俱乐部。
He spent his teenage years working as a printer's apprentice and eventually joined a nationalist club that promoted Jamaican independence.
他曾在欧洲短暂工作，担任记者，之后创立了全球黑人改善协会，并移居纽约。
He spent some time in Europe working as a journalist and then founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association and moved to New York.
我了解到，莫莉，他并不是一个典型的领袖，口才也不好，还招致了很多批评？
I understand that he was an unlikely leader, Molly, not a great speaker and with lots of critics?
确实如此。
Absolutely.
二十世纪初，主流媒体——无论是黑人还是白人媒体——关注的非裔美国领袖通常是受过大学教育、身材高挑瘦削、肤色较浅、相貌英俊，并且能用上层中产阶级白人受教育者标准的英语流利表达的人。
The type of African American leader that the mainstream media, black and white, paid attention to in the early twentieth century tended to be college educated, tall, lean, fair skinned, handsome, eloquent by the standards of upper middle class white educated English speech.
马库斯·加维完全不符合这些特征。
Marcus Garvey was none of these things.
他于1916年出现在哈莱姆。
He shows up in Harlem in 1916.
他身材矮小，体格像摔跤手，肤色很深，公共演讲能力并不出色。
He's fairly short, kinda built like a wrestler, very dark complected, not a great public speaker.
我的意思是，我们知道，每当他去街角练习演讲时，总会被人喝倒彩。
I mean, we know that he got heckled whenever he went to the street corner to try to practice.
但他无所畏惧。
He was fearless, though.
他始终坚持不懈。
He just kept at it.
他没有任何经济资源。
He had no, financial resources.
我的意思是，他住在一间狭小肮脏的公寓里，靠吃罐装玉米牛肉泥和豆子度日。
I mean, he lived on cans of corned beef hash and beans in this tiny squalid apartment.
当他开始在哈莱姆向非裔美国人宣传泛非统一理念时，这一理念通过他的演讲和出版物《黑人世界》逐渐成型，我认为，这显然是对以往关于非洲人民尊严以及团结其他精神、经济和政治力量的种种主张的创造性融合，尤其在加维富有仪式感和制服风格的演绎下，这种组合变得异常具有爆发力。
While he was beginning to try to interest African Americans in Harlem at this time in his message of pan African unity, which as it emerged through his speeches and his publication, The Negro World, was, I think it's clear, a a really creative combination of previous iterations of this message of of the dignity of African people and the need to unite with other kind of spiritual and economic and political strains that proved to be this kind of amazing combustible mix, especially when enacted with Garvey's flair for ritual and uniform.
他本人非常喜爱佩戴插有羽毛的头盔，以及紫色、金色和绿色的绶带，穿着类似军装的服饰。
He really he himself loved to wear a plumed helmet and a purple gold and and green sashes and a kind of military regalia.
因此，这个运动在短短几年内就获得了显著的势头。
So so this movement over just a few years developed significant momentum.
他还对黑人解放持有非传统的观点。
So he also had unconventional views about black liberation.
我想放一段他的演讲录音给你听。
I want to play you a clip from one of his speeches.
我们希望在这个国家实现解放并团结起来。
We want to unite the liberation in this country.
我们希望每个人都为一个共同的目标努力，那就是在广袤的非洲大陆上建立属于自己的国家。
We want everyone to work for one common object, that of building a nation of his own on the great continent of Africa.
这段录音音质不太好，莫莉，但他表达的意思是，他希望非裔美国人离开美国，在非洲建立家园。
So that recording is not great, Molly, but what he's saying is he wants African Americans to leave America and build a homeland in Africa.
难道白人至上主义团体，比如三K党，不也是这么说的吗？
Now wasn't that also what white supremacist groups like the Ku Klux Klan might have said?
马库斯·加维，用我们今天的话说，是一个分离主义者。
Marcus Garvey was, we would say, a separationist.
他曾与来自南方的种族隔离主义政客以及三K党成员会面，讨论如何共同维护种族的纯粹性。
He had meetings with segregationist politicians from the South, with Ku Klux Klan members to discuss their mutual interest in keeping their races pure.
在美国的背景下，他希望非裔美国人实现经济自主，最终目标是返回非洲，为非洲大陆上的非洲裔人民建立政治独立。
He wanted, in the context of America, he wanted African Americans to achieve economic autonomy with an eye toward eventually returning Africa and establishing political independence for, people of African descent on the African Continent.
通常，你会以一种对非洲当地居民相当轻蔑的方式来表述这个问题。
Often, you know, framing it in a way that was rather condescending to the Africans already already living there.
但这个信息具有极大的吸引力，而且也是一种精神上的号召。
But it was a message that that had a great deal of appeal, and it was a spiritual message as well.
我的意思是，他对非洲后裔唤醒一种他所说的长期沉睡的精神力量非常感兴趣。
I mean, he he was, very interested in awakening in people of African descent a a spiritual power that he said had been had been dormant.
他们可以说处于一种健忘的状态。
They had been in a state of of amnesia, you could say.
当我聆听并阅读他的演讲时，我觉得他像是摩西、拿破仑和戴尔·卡耐基的结合体，那种靠自己努力奋起的励志精神。
When I when I listen to him and read his speeches, I hear him as kind of a combination of Moses and Napoleon and Dale Carnegie, the kind of pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you know, aspect of of that message.
因此，他在1919年10月经历了一件非常戏剧性的事件后，对追随者的影响被放大了。
So the effect that he had on his followers was magnified following a very dramatic incident in October 1919.
当时他在纽约的办公室里，一名男子突然冲进了前门。
He was in his office in New York when a man burst through the front doors.
莫莉，给我讲讲接下来发生了什么。
Tell me the story of what happened next, Molly.
这个男人显然怒不可遏。
This man is clearly in a fury.
他在寻找加维，而且带着武器。
He's searching for Garvey and, is armed.
他开了几枪，朝加维射击。
He gets off a a couple of rounds and, fires at Garvey.
加维倒在地上，看起来身受致命伤。
Garvey falls to the ground, appears to be mortally wounded.
那人逃跑了，后来被警方抓获。
The man takes off and is later, captured by police.
广泛报道称加维已死，他的追随者悲痛欲绝，陷入哀悼。
And it is widely reported that Garvey is killed, and his followers are grief stricken in mourning.
但几天后，加维拄着拐杖蹒跚出现，在集会上迎接他的追随者。
And then a few days later, Garvey appears limping with a cane to greet his followers at a rally.
许多追随者，尤其是那些读过报纸上声称领袖已死的报道的人，认为这是奇迹，显然是神意的幸存。
And many of his followers, especially since they've they've read these newspaper reports suggesting that their their leader had died, view this as a miraculous, clearly a divinely ordained survival.
因此，这次暗杀企图非但没有削弱加维对追随者的控制，反而巩固了他对其追随者的影响力，使他们更加坚信上帝选中了他去完成一项特定使命，并且他拥有凡人所不具备的某种不朽之力。
And so that assassination attempt, if anything, it it solidifies Garvey's power over his followers and their their faith that God has selected him for a specific mission and that he has a kind of invincibility that ordinary mortals do not have.
所以我们已经考察了十八世纪的一位精神领袖和一位十九世纪出生的政治领袖。
So we've looked at a spiritual leader in the eighteenth century and a political leader who was born in the nineteenth century.
现在让我们跳到完全不同的世界——二十世纪的体育界。
Let's jump forward to a completely different world, the world of sports in the twentieth century.
在二十世纪六十年代，蒂姆·盖洛威是一名全国排名的网球选手。
In the nineteen sixties, Tim Galway was a nationally ranked tennis player.
他曾是哈佛大学网球队的队长。
He was captain of the Harvard tennis team.
毕业后，他开始在加利福尼亚教授网球，但他因独特的教学方式而声名鹊起。
After graduating, he began teaching tennis in California, but he became famous for his unusual coaching style.
他的方法是什么，莫莉？
What was his approach, Molly?
他真正引起全国关注是在1974年，当时他出版了一本名为《网球的内在游戏》的书。
He, really burst onto national consciousness in 1974 with a a book he published called the inner game of tennis.
我认为他的观点相当反直觉。
And his message was quite counterintuitive, I think.
本质上，他说，所有教练都建议你要刻意密切关注正手、反手和发球的每一个细节，并反复练习直到你对每个细节都了如指掌。
Essentially, he said, you've got all these coaches advising you to pay close, deliberate attention to every detail of your forehand and backhand and your serve and to drill down until you're absolutely mindful of every detail.
我告诉你那是错误的方法，成功的网球运动是一种自我遗忘的练习，是让自我意识静默的过程。
I'm telling you that's the wrong approach and that successful tennis is an exercise in self forgetting, in silencing the ego mind.
这是他使用的一个说法。
This is a phrase he used.
他将佛教和印度教思想的模糊融合，以及二十世纪中期关于自我实现的流行心理学概念，首先应用于网球，随后在后续著作中扩展到体育运动。
He brought to bear on first tennis and then later sports in subsequent books kind of vague mix of Buddhist and Hindu ideas, notions from mid twentieth century pop psychology regarding self actualization.
因此，蒂姆·加尔韦认为，高水平的表现源于让内心平静，并信任你天生的直觉自我。
So Tim Galway suggested that high performance comes from quieting the mind and trusting your natural intuitive self.
我想给你们播放一段美国广播公司新闻影片的片段，其中有一位中年女性表示，在她参加蒂姆·加尔韦的团体课程之前，已经有二十年没有进行过任何体育运动了。
I want to play you a clip at ABC News Film featuring one middle aged woman who said that she had not done anything athletic in twenty years when she took part in a group lesson with Tim Galway.
当她开始漂亮地击球时，连她自己都感到惊讶。
She surprised herself when she started to hit the ball beautifully.
我只是随波逐流，你知道的，顺其自然地做着该做的事，然后我说，啊，我正在打网球。
I was just sort of floating along, you know, and doing what came naturally, you know, and I said, ah, I'm playing tennis.
你知道的，这真的非常美妙。
You know, it's really really beautiful.
这个
The
内在游戏所有练习的关键在于，将注意力集中在某个不会干扰身体自动击球能力的地方。
key of all the exercises in the inner game is to focus the mind's attention somewhere where it will not interfere with the body's ability to hit the ball automatically.
这个想法真的很迷人，莫莉。
So there's something wonderfully seductive about that idea, Molly.
如果我们能不再妨碍自己，你知道的，技能就会自然而然地来到我们身边。
If we can only get out of our own way, you know, skills come to us effortlessly.
没错。
That's right.
而关于你的导师或教练是帮助你释放潜能的人，这种观点认为，你内心深处早已存在一个真实的火焰，那就是真正的你和你真正的潜能，它本来就在这里。
And this idea of your leader or your coach as someone who is helping you unlock your potential, that there is inside you this authentic flame of who you really are and your true capabilities, and it's already there.
你所需要做的就是培育它并释放它。
And all you have to do is nurture it and release it.
这是一种非常晚近的二十世纪对个人身份以及领导者与追随者之间关系的思考方式。
It's it's a very late twentieth century way of thinking about personal identity and the relationship between leaders and followers.
当我们思考历史上的强大人物时，很容易通过指出他们独特的个性特征来解释他们的影响力。
When we think about powerful figures in history, it's easy to explain their influence by pointing to their unique personality traits.
巴拉克·奥巴马自信而乐观。
Barack Obama was confident and optimistic.
史蒂夫·乔布斯充满激情且富有远见。
Steve Jobs was intense and visionary.
马丁·路德·金是一位才华横溢的演说家，拥有坚定的信念。
Martin Luther King Junior was a brilliant speaker with strong convictions.
但我们没有探索故事中一个重要部分。
But there's an important part of the story we don't explore.
那就是有魅力的人如何唤醒我们内心某种东西的故事。
That is the story of how charismatic people awake something in us.
您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。
You're listening to Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
在全球不确定性中，非洲提供了机遇。
Amidst global uncertainty, Africa offers opportunities.
在2026年非洲市场大会上，来自非洲及世界各地的决策者将探讨如何通过政策改革、市场发展和私人资本推动整个大陆的可持续增长。
At the African Markets Conference twenty twenty six, decision makers from across Africa and the world will explore how policy reform, market development and private capital can accelerate sustainable growth across the continent at scale.
了解更多，请访问 standardbank.co.zac。
Learn more at standardbank.co.zacib.
标准银行是经授权的金融服务提供商和注册信贷机构。
Standard Bank is an authorized FSP and registered credit provider.
条款和条件适用。
Ts and Cs apply.
这是《隐藏的思维》。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·韦达anta。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
我们常常将魅力与讨人喜欢混为一谈。
We often conflate charisma with likability.
当我们想到有魅力的人时，我们会想到那些拥有迷人微笑、出色社交技巧和亲和背景的人。
When we think about charismatic people, we think of people with beautiful smiles, great social skills, and relatable backgrounds.
像约翰·F。
People like John F.
肯尼迪、玛丽莲·梦露或奥普拉这样的人。
Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, or Oprah.
在北卡罗来纳大学教堂山分校，历史学家莫莉·沃滕提出了不同的观点。
At the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, historian Molly Worthen offers a different view.
她说，历史上的有魅力之人并不总是迷人、美丽或富有启发性。
She says that charismatic people in history aren't always charming or beautiful or even inspirational.
相反，她认为，我们被他们吸引并非因为他们的特质，而是因为他们向我们揭示了关于自我的某些东西。
Rather, she argues, we are drawn to them not because of their traits but because they reveal something to us about ourselves.
莫莉，我认为首先理解你使用‘魅力’这个词时的含义可能会有帮助。
Molly, I think it might help to first understand what you mean when you use the term charisma.
这个词的历史是什么？
What is the history of this word?
如果我们追溯到古希腊人使用这个词的方式，以及他们将其传给《圣经》作者的用法，最好将魅力或恩典视为一种神恩，一种来自神或众神的礼物，在古希腊语境中，这种礼物带来了可能带来善果或恶果的力量。
If we go back to the way the ancient Greeks used the word and bequeathed it to the authors of the Bible, it's best to think of charisma or or charis as a kind of grace, a gift from god or the gods that in the in the ancient Greek context brought with it power that could redound for good or for ill.
这是一种接受者无法完全掌控的力量，是一种人类接受者未必主动寻求的馈赠。
It was power that the recipient could not completely control, a gift that that the human recipient didn't necessarily ask for.
这个词在基督教神学语境中保持了近一千九百年。
And the word remained in that Christian theological context for really nineteen hundred years.
我的意思是，它曾经是一个相当冷僻的术语。
I mean, it was a it was a fairly obscure term.
你只有在非常活跃于教会，或是专业教会历史学家或神学家时，才可能用到或了解这个词。
You would only have occasion to use it or know it if you were, you know, very active in church or you were a professional church historian or theologian.
这个术语是如何被世俗化的呢，莫莉？
How did the term come to be secularized, Molly?
大约在二十世纪之交，德国社会学家马克斯·韦伯正在寻找方法，以描述他所观察到的西方现代性中发生的各种复杂变化。
Around the turn of the twentieth century, the German sociologist Max Weber was casting about looking for ways to describe all the complicated changes he was seeing unfold in Western modernity.
他非常关注领导力，以及特定个人如何成为颠覆性力量。
He was really interested in in leadership and in the way particular individuals could turn into disruptive forces.
于是他借用了‘魅力’这个词。
So he borrowed the term charisma.
他在学生时代听了一位教会史讲师的讲座，从而听到了这个词。
He heard it in a in a lecture when he was a student, a lecturer in church history.
他借用这个词来描述一种他观察到的权威类型，这种权威既存在于宗教中，也重要地存在于政治中。
And he borrowed it to describe a particular kind of authority that he saw manifest in both religion, but also importantly in politics.
这是一种他所说的不同于基于制度的权威的权力形式，比如总统或总理的制度性角色，也不同于基于社会传统的权威，以及不同于源于军事力量的权威。
A type of authority that he said was different from authority based on institutions, like, you know, the the institutional role of a president or a prime minister, different from authority premised on a society's tradition and separate too from authority that comes with military power.
魅力是一种个人被其追随者所感知的品质，即这位领袖具有超凡的特质。
Charisma instead is a is the quality of an individual seen by his followers, that this leader has superhuman qualities.
因此，他能够为追随者承诺一条全新的前进道路，这条道路在没有他的领导的情况下是完全不可能实现的。
And and therefore, can can promise for them, a new path forward that is totally impossible except for his leadership.
到了二十世纪五十年代末和六十年代，美国记者开始使用‘魅力’这个词，并用它来描述本国的当代政治。
By the late nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties, American journalists start picking it up and kind of playing with the word charisma as a way to describe contemporary politics here.
当我想到‘魅力’这个词时，莫莉，我常常把它和那些有磁性的人联系在一起。
When I think of the word charisma, Molly, I often associate it with people who are magnetic.
这种含义是不是这个词长期以来的一部分呢？
Has that been a part of the meaning of the word for a long time?
我认为‘魅力’这个词如此有趣，原因之一是我们用它来指代那些我们无法完全理解的领袖与追随者之间的动态关系。
I think one reason the word charisma is so interesting is because it's a term we punt to when we are observing a a dynamic between a leader and followers that we can't quite make sense of.
我们知道某种事情正在发生，但无法通过指出这个人提出的政策提案，或某种其他常见的互惠安排来解释它。
We we know something's going on, but we can't account for it, you know, by pointing to a policy proposal that this person is making or or some other kind of kind of common sense quid pro quo arrangement.
我认为，随着美国人对‘魅力’这个词的使用，它逐渐与‘魅力’和‘名人’的概念混在一起了，而让我惊讶的是，在我研究的四个世纪的美国历史人物中，真正特别有魅力的人少之又少。
And I think as Americans have played with the word charisma, it's gotten a bit muddled together with the ideas of charm and celebrity, and it surprised me to observe how few of the figures I ended up studying across four centuries of American history were particularly charming.
我一次又一次地发现，自己在写那些相貌并不出众、不被评价为杰出演说家、其存在感更宜描述为两极分化而非普遍具有磁性的人物。
I I found myself again and again, writing about individuals who, were not that good looking, who were not reported to be amazing public speakers, whose presence was maybe better described as polarizing rather than kind of universally magnetic.
你知道，如果我们想到那些特别擅长在鸡尾酒会上活跃气氛的人，他们有能力让你融入一场对话，而这场对话很快就会变成对你自身最佳想法和经历的探索。
You know, if we if we think about people who are really good at, you know, working the room at a cocktail party, they have the ability to invite you into a conversation that quickly starts to feel like an exploration of your own best thoughts and experiences.
我认为这就是魅力的真正秘诀，这一点非常重要。
I think that's really the secret of charm, and it's important.
但仅凭这一点，不足以创立一种新宗教或推动一场政治运动。
But it is not enough to launch a new religion or build a political movement.
我认为，那些能够做到这一点的领导者，必须提供某种更强大、更令人困惑且更具吸引力的东西。
The leaders who do that, I think, have to have to offer something much more powerful and disorienting and compelling.
你能谈谈这个非常有趣的观点吗？即如果你试图突破社会规范和习俗，讨人喜欢反而可能成为障碍。
Can you talk a moment about the very interesting idea that likability can actually be an impediment if you're trying to break through social norms and customs.
人类是善于讲故事和创造故事的生物。
Humans are storytelling and and story making creatures.
我们一直在寻找方式来组织我们的混乱。
We're constantly looking for ways to organize our chaos.
最成功的政治家和宗教领袖都是卓越的故事讲述者，他们不仅提供一套口号、对对手的批评，更提供了一个完整的情节脉络——讲述我们从何而来、将去向何方，谁是反派、谁是英雄，并邀请某些人加入其中。
And and the most successful politicians and religious leaders are brilliant storytellers that who not only offer a a set of slogans, a critique of the other side, but a a plot arc, a story of where we have come and and where we're going, who the villains are, who the heroes are, and they invite certain people in.
但一个叙事只有具备张力才成立。
But a narrative only has tension.
只有当有不属于其中的人，或者被置于不太理想角色的人时，参与其中才有意义。
It's only worth being a part of it if there are also people who don't belong, who are or who are cast in rather un undesirable roles.
所以我认为，如果一个领导者过于在意取悦所有人，可能会导致信息缺乏激励性，无法真正吸引并提升某一部分听众或读者，从而无法建立起一场运动。
So I think if a leader is too preoccupied with being all things to all people, that can result in a in a message that is not activating, that doesn't doesn't grab and elevate a certain subset of the of the people hearing or or reading him to the to the point of really building a movement.
真正突破并建立一场运动，必然会引起那些不属于你所讲述故事的人的强烈反感和愤怒。
Really breaking through and building a movement is going to involve eliciting quite a lot of disdain and and anger from people who who are not part of a story you're telling.
你说 charisma 存在一种悖论，它与我们内心两种相互冲突的渴望有关：一方面希望掌控自己的生活，另一方面又害怕随之而来的责任。
You say that there is a paradox of charisma, and it has to do with the dual urges we have to feel like we are in control of our lives, but also to fear the responsibility that comes from having that control.
你能为我详细解释一下这个观点吗，莫莉？
Can you unpack that idea for me, Molly?
我们大多数人希望拥有一种能动性，感受到自己所经历的挣扎与苦难并非毫无意义。
Most of us want some feeling of agency, some sense that we know what the point of all of this struggling and suffering is, that it hasn't been for for no reason at all.
但我们并不完全愿意独自承担全部的责任。
But we don't quite want the responsibility of of being wholly in charge of it all ourselves.
这两种冲动——既渴望自由与掌控，又渴望安全感——是相互矛盾、共存的。
And those two impulses, you know, wanting that that sense of of freedom and control, but also wanting that security, They they're in they exist in tension.
但我认为它们一直都在。
But I think that they're they're always there.
至少在短期内，那些真正对美国历史产生重大影响的宗教和政治运动，都是由那些精通这种平衡艺术的个人领导的，尽管长期来看未必如此。
And the most successful, at least briefly, not always over the long term, but the those those religious and political movements that have really made a mark on American history have been led by individuals who who mastered the art of that balance.
你说宗教领袖约瑟夫·史密斯体现了这种悖论。
You say that the religious leader Joseph Smith exemplifies this paradox.
具体怎么说呢，莫莉？
How so, Molly?
约瑟夫·史密斯出身于新英格兰一个贫穷的自耕农家庭，他的家人在十九世纪初的美国难以过上安稳的生活。
Joseph Smith was a child of kind of poor New England, homesteader, farmer family members who couldn't really make a comfortable life in in the context of, you know, the turn of the nineteenth century America.
他们一直在为生计苦苦挣扎。
They were constantly scrapping and struggling to make a living materially.
而且，他的父母是寻求者，对现有的教会选项感到沮丧，非常关注生活的超自然层面，常常做梦和见异象，却始终找不到一个制度化的归属。
And also, you know, his parents were seekers who were frustrated with existing church options, really interested in the supernatural side of life, prone to having dreams and visions, but unable to really find an institutional home.
这确实令人困惑和迷失方向。
And that's that's awfully confusing and disorienting.
约瑟夫·史密斯拥有这种天赋。
Joseph Smith had this genius.
我的意思是，摩门教徒会说，他得到了启示，帮助他诊断出当时现有宗教叙事、对《圣经》的理解以及人与神关系中的空白，这些空白让大量早期美国人感到沮丧和迷茫。
I mean, Mormons would say he, you know, he received revelation that helped him to diagnose the the gaps, the ways in which the existing religious story way of understanding the bible and the relationship between humans and and god was just leaving, I I guess, a critical mass of early Americans feeling frustrated and lost.
因此，当他报告自己的启示，并解释他声称在纽约州北部一座山丘上由天使摩罗乃引导发现的金页片时，他提出了新的宗教愿景。
And so he offers, as he's reporting his his revelations and interpreting these golden plates that he that he says he's been led to find in a hill in Upstate New York by the angel Moroni.
然后，他在接下来的两年里逐步构建出这个以新经文为核心的新兴宗教社群会是什么样子。
And and then he spends the next two years kind of spinning out what this new religious community built around this new scripture will look like.
在许多方面，他提供了一种非常美国化的基督教形式，与当时美国人的愿望和焦虑高度契合。
In many ways, he he he offers a a deeply American form of Christianity that is very much in line, I think, with the the desires and anxieties of Americans at this time.
他们希望自己的自由意志得到颂扬和认可。
They want they wanna have their their free will celebrated and recognized.
摩门教可以说是最彻底的自由意志信仰。
And the Mormon faith is kind of the ultimate free will faith.
它明确地提供了一条通往救赎和获得进入天堂不同层级资格的道路。
I mean, it's very clear in offering a road map for earning your exaltation and your your access essentially to different stages of heaven.
因此，这是一个关于巨大赋权的故事，同时也是一种邀请，邀请你将自己的个人挣扎和在纽约州北部或俄亥俄州的小农场上艰难求生的努力，融入到上帝以某种有意义的方式所预定的更宏大的叙事中。
So it is this it's this story of both tremendous empowerment, but also an invitation to subsume your individual struggles and your efforts to scratch out an existence on your little homestead in in Upstate New York or Ohio into this broader story that that God has ordained in some meaningful way.
因此，我认为，这很好地体现了同时提供赋权与安全感的这种悖论。
And so that, I think, is a great example of that of that paradox of offering both empowering agency and security.
不过，莫莉，当你在谈论时，我清楚地感觉到，当有魅力的人拥有追随者时，这是因为他们在引领的人群中唤醒了某种东西。
As you're talking though, Molly, it feels so clear to me that when charismatic people have these followings, it's clear they have these followings because they're unlocking something in the people who they are leading.
人们在这段信息中听到了关于自己的声音。
The people are hearing something about themselves in this message.
所以，即使这位有魅力的领袖并不讨人喜欢、相貌平平、缺乏吸引力，关键在于这个信息让我对自己有了不同的看法。
So it's know, even if the charismatic leader is not charming and is not good looking and is not likable, The point is the message makes me think differently about myself.
没错。
That's right.
约瑟夫·史密斯就是这个的绝佳例子。
And Joseph Smith is a great example of this.
我的意思是，一些亲自见过他的人，觉得他本人确实极具吸引力。
I mean, some people who met him in person, found him really physically compelling.
他在这个时代算是很高的。
He was tall for the era.
他有一双电光般的蓝眼睛。
He had these electric blue eyes.
一位追随者说，仅仅与他握个手，她就感到圣灵贯穿了全身。
One follower said just by shaking his hand, she felt the holy spirit electrify her whole body.
但你也能找到一些对他持怀疑态度的人，他们见到他后说，这人是个小丑。
But then you can also find skeptics who encounter him and say, this guy is a clown.
他长着一张不诚实的脸。
He has this dishonest face.
他的手有点胖。
His hands are kind of fat.
我连陪他去杂货店都不会，更不用说像他的追随者在伊利诺伊州纳府那样，跟着他去密西西比河畔建立新的锡安了。
I wouldn't follow him to the grocery store, you know, let alone to to found a a new Zion on the banks of the Mississippi as his followers did in Nauvoo, Illinois.
约瑟夫·史密斯的故事也让我在研究中早期就明白，魅力的力量更多存在于故事和信息中，而非个人本身。
And Joseph Smith's story also was an early case that helped me understand in my research that the power of charisma resides much more in the story and the message than in the individual.
你所探讨的 charisma 的一个要素是，有魅力的人常常承诺揭开某个秘密真相的面纱。
One of the elements of charisma that you explore is that charismatic people often promise to pull back the veil on a secret truth.
我的意思是，这在杰米玛·威尔金森身上也是如此。
I mean, that's that was true of Jemima Wilkinson.
在马库斯·加维身上也是如此。
That was true of Marcus Garvey.
就连蒂姆·盖尔威也是如此。
Even true of Tim Galway.
谈谈这个观点：某种程度上，有魅力的人向我们提供了一种视角，让我们看到日常现实背后更深层的真相。
Talk about this idea that in some ways charismatic people offer to show us a vision of reality that is in some ways behind the reality that we are seeing every day.
我认为，不同情境下的魅力型领袖都在将自己的立场与人们从既有渠道、传统和制度中接收到的信息并列在一起。
I think charismatic leaders in many different contexts are positioning themselves alongside the message that people are getting from established sources, from tradition, from institutions.
而魅力型领袖会说：你以为你已经知道了世界是如何运行的。
And the charismatic leader says, you think you've been told how the world works.
你以为你对现实有了完整的认知，但其实并没有。
You think you have a full picture of reality, but you don't.
你一直被隐瞒了关于你自身存在以及你与物质和超自然力量关系的一些关键事实。
You've been denied some crucial facts about your existence and your relationship to to the powers, both material and supernatural.
这种隐瞒可能表现为一种真正揭示人类存在全貌的合法启示。
And that can that can take the form of a very legitimate revelation of true access to to the full picture of what it is to be human.
因此，我认为我们可以这样理解马丁·路德·金的讯息：他打破了人们的安于现状和对吉姆·克劳法的默许，重新塑造了美国黑人和白人对可能性的认知，让他们重新认识每个人作为个体的本质，以及二十世纪中期非裔美国人真实生活经验与真正正义之间的巨大鸿沟。
So I think this is one way we could understand Martin Luther King Junior's message, that that he he is, he is someone who destabilized, complacency and a a willingness to just suffer Jim Crow by reorienting the way that, Americans, black and white, saw saw saw what was possible, saw the reality of, who each person is as an individual, and and the vast chasm between the lived experience of black Americans in the mid twentieth century and what justice really consists of.
因此，这是一种真正揭示真相的揭幕行为，如果你愿意这么理解的话。
So so there is a case of a of a pulling back the veil that it was absolutely rooted in a a a true revelation, if you if you will.
但我认为，这种现象也可能呈现出更黑暗的形式。
But I think this can take darker forms also.
而这正是‘魅力’这个词可能在我们心中引发负面联想的原因——因为它有时会伴随着对现实的虚假叙事。
And this is where I think the word charisma can can trigger perhaps in our mind a kind of negative connotation because it can sometimes go along with a false story about reality.
它试图削弱人们从主流媒体或专家那里获得的信息。
A an effort to undermine, you know, the the news people receive from the mainstream media or, you know, what they're told by experts.
而有时，这种做法会滑向所谓的伪事实领域。
And sometimes that can cross over into into the the realm of kind of pseudo facts.
所以，我认为在我们如何将这些信息运用到日常生活中、如何评估领导者时，关键在于不断将领导者告诉我们的故事与其他信息来源进行对照，并尽最大努力——尽管这永远不可能做到完美——去辨别：这位领导者是否真的向我展示了某种真实且能改变一切、并值得我认真对待的东西？
So really crucial, I think, in, you know, how we use this information in our in our everyday lives, how we evaluate leaders, is to be constantly holding up the story that leaders tell us against other sources of information and doing our best, although it's it's never possible to to be perfect at this, to discern, you know, is this leader really showing me something that is true and that changes everything and, and that I have to take seriously?
或者，我是否有理由保持怀疑？
Or perhaps do I have reason to be skeptical?
魅力是一种强大的力量。
Charisma is a powerful force.
它能够激励人心、凝聚力量，并赋予人们深刻的意义与目标感。
It has the ability to inspire, unite, and give people a profound sense of meaning and purpose.
当一个有魅力的人讲话时，他的追随者听到的不仅仅是一场演讲。
When a charismatic person speaks, their followers aren't just hearing a speech.
他们看到的是一种理解自己生活的全新方式。
They are seeing a new way to understand their own lives.
当我们回来时，将探讨魅力多年来所呈现的不同形式，以及我们何时应当对它提出质疑。
When we come back, the different forms that charisma has taken over the years and how and when we should question it.
您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。
You are listening to Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I am Shankar Vedanta.
交易金融市场可能是一项孤独的事业。
Trading the financial markets can be a lonely pursuit.
所以当你想知道如何在平台上开启深色模式，或者如何存入资金时，与真人沟通很有帮助。
So when you want to know how to turn on dark mode in your platform or how to deposit into your account, it's good to speak to a real person.
在capital.com，我们的团队会说德语、法语、意大利语、西班牙语以及许多其他语言。
At capital.com, our team speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, and many other languages.
随时联系我们，我们很乐意为您解答交易方面的问题。
Get in touch, and we'll be happy to help answer your trading questions.
capital.com。
Capital.com.
发现一位懂你语言的经纪商。
Discover a broker that speaks your language.
差价合约具有高风险。
CFDs involve a high level of risk.
百分之八十三的散户投资者亏损。
Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.
在全球不确定性加剧的背景下，非洲提供了机遇。
Amidst global uncertainty, Africa offers opportunities.
在2026年非洲市场大会上，来自非洲及全球的决策者将探讨如何通过政策改革、市场发展和私人资本，大规模推动整个大陆的可持续增长。
At the African Markets Conference twenty twenty six, decision makers from across Africa and the world will explore how policy reform, market development, and private capital can accelerate sustainable growth across the continent at scale.
了解更多，请访问 standardbank.co.za/cib。
Learn more at standardbank.co.za/cib.
标准银行是经授权的金融服务提供商和注册信贷提供方。
Standard Bank is an authorized FSP and registered credit provider.
条款和条件适用。
Tees and Cs apply.
这是《隐性思维》。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
你有没有关于被有魅力的领导者吸引的个人经历？
Do you have personal stories about being drawn in by a charismatic leader?
关于魅力的问题，我们如何会被一个迷人的人深深吸引？
A question about charisma and how we can be swept up in the spell of a mesmerizing person?
如果你愿意与《隐藏的大脑》的听众分享你的问题或故事，请用手机录一段语音备忘录。
If you'd be willing to share your question or story with a Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone.
然后将文件发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。
Then email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.
邮件主题请写：Charisma。
Use the subject line Charisma.
再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。
Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.
有魅力的人能够吸引追随者，塑造运动，并改变国家的命运。
Charismatic people draw followers in, shape movements, and alter the course of nations.
在北卡罗来纳大学，历史学家莫莉·沃滕撰写了《着迷：魅力如何塑造了从清教徒到唐纳德·特朗普的美国历史》。
At the University of North Carolina, historian Molly Worthen is the author of Spellbound, How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump.
莫莉，我想知道你能否谈谈这样一种观点：有魅力的人有时会将自己的个人故事与他们的主张融合在一起。
Molly, I'm wondering whether you can talk about the idea that charismatic people sometimes fuse their personal story with their message.
比如，在唐纳德·特朗普成为总统之前很久，他就一直在构建一种叙事，将个人神话与他对美国正被世界其他地区占便宜的看法结合在一起。
So long before Donald Trump became president, for example, he was crafting a narrative that fused personal mythology with his worldview that America was being taken advantage of by the rest of the world.
你能谈谈这种观点吗？有魅力的人非常擅长把自己融入他们所构建的故事和叙事之中。
Can you talk about this idea that charismatic people are very good at placing themselves in the flow of the stories and the narratives that they're crafting?
我认为这完全正确，而且对于一个想要让追随者与他或她本人建立特殊关系的有魅力的领导者来说，这是一个关键步骤。
I think that's exactly right and a crucial step for a charismatic leader who's offering a story that is supposed to draw followers into a special relationship with him or her as an individual.
回顾唐纳德·特朗普在正式从政之前的职业生涯，我认为他在这方面展现出了真正的直觉。
Looking back over Donald Trump's career long before he formally entered politics, I think he showed a a real instinct for doing this.
如果你回溯他上世纪八十年代与小报记者的对话，或者找找他在八十年代末期参加奥普拉·温弗瑞节目时的旧视频，你会发现他一直在谈论自己如何遭遇各种邪恶势力试图利用他、欺骗他。
And if you go back and read his conversations with tabloid reporters in the nineteen eighties, or you can find old footage of him on the Oprah Winfrey show in the late nineteen eighties, and you can you find him talking about his experience with all kinds of evil actors who have tried to take advantage of him and rip him off.
这是他在职业生涯早期就经常使用的一个说法。
That's a phrase he uses a lot from early in his career.
我认为人们已经厌倦了看到美国被占便宜。
I think people are tired of seeing The United States ripped off.
我不能向你保证一切，但我可以告诉你一件事。
And I can't promise you everything, but I can tell you one thing.
这个国家可以从那些二十五年来一直占我们便宜的人身上赚到巨额财富。
This country would make one hell of a lot of money from those people that for twenty five years have taken advantage.
情况不会像现在这样。
It wouldn't be the way it's been.
相信我。
Believe me.
他的说法是，自己是一个白手起家的人，完全淡化了他从父亲那里继承商业帝国的程度。
His account is one of, you know, himself as a self made man, you know, really glossing over the degree to which he inherited his business empire from his father.
相反，他将其描述为一次卓越的创业创意，需要他在每一步都避开那些试图拖垮他的人。
And instead, he describes it as this brilliant exercise in entrepreneurial creativity, one that has required him to evade at every turn people who would try to take him down.
这还要求他精通如何利用体制，因为这个体制本质上是腐败的。
And it's required him to develop a facility in working the system because the system is fundamentally corrupt.
为什么那些没有合法性的法律，理应得到一贯的、真诚的尊重？
And why do laws that have no legitimacy deserve consistent, you know, good faith respect?
我认为，他一直非常谨慎地走在这条线上，从未在他的个人事业叙事中暗示自己违反过任何法律，但与此同时，他又暗示那些不利用税法漏洞的人——如果你不做这些事，那你就是个傻瓜。
That's a line he's always walked very carefully, I think, never never suggesting in in his own narrative of of his career that he broke any laws, but at the same time suggesting that someone who doesn't take advantage of, you know, loopholes in the tax code, if you don't do all of those things, then you're kind of a fool.
因此，他精心塑造了自己作为系统操控大师的形象，报复那些所谓的不良行为者。
So, you know, he he has crafted the story of himself as this master of this kind of working the system and taking revenge on people who are bad actors.
因此，当他将目光转向国家政治时，把自己塑造成被遗忘者的英雄、致力于纠正不公、打击所有针对普通美国人的腐败势力和机构的英雄，这根本不是什么大的跳跃——用他经常说的另一个词来说，就是那些坑害了人们的人。
And so it was really not a far leap at all to cast himself as he trained his eye on national politics as the hero of the forgotten man, of the the hero who would really rectify injustices and go after all of the people and the powers and the institutions that are rigged against the average American that have screwed people over, you know, to use another phrase that he's used frequently.
因此，我认为，他非常巧妙地将自己的商业世界成功故事，与他承诺给支持者——如果他们选举他当总统——的复仇、正义和最终胜利融合在了一起。
And so he he set himself up, I think, quite brilliantly to fuse his personal story of triumph in the business world with the revenge and justice and ultimate triumph that he promised to offer his supporters if they elected him president.
你觉得他的故事在某种程度上，是否与你研究过的其他有魅力的人物的故事相似？那些追随他的人，几乎真的愿意为他赴死，深信他所代表的一切？
Do you think his story in some ways mirrors the stories of other people that you have looked at, other charismatic people, and that, you know, there are followers of his who, you know, almost quite literally are willing to die for him and believe so deeply in what he stands for?
同时，也有人看着他，不知道是该翻白眼，还是干脆无奈地摊手表示厌恶。
And simultaneously, there are other people who look at him and don't know whether to roll their eyes or just to throw their hands up in disgust.
你知道，他似乎在人们心中激发出截然相反的强烈情感。
You know, he seems to evoke extremely strong passions in completely different directions.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
正是2015年观察到这些极其两极化的反应，才促使我开始探索跨越几个世纪的魅力现象。
And it was observing those very polarized reactions back in 2015 that helped send me down the path of of of trying to understand the phenomenon of charisma across the centuries.
我确实发现，这种对人的两极化影响从殖民时代一直延续至今，处处可见。
And I absolutely did find that that polarizing effect on people is echoed, you know, all the way back into colonial times, up until up until the present.
我在想，莫莉，当你想到唐纳德·特朗普时，他的某些观点其实长期以来一直相当一致，甚至在他当总统之前很久就是这样。
I'm wondering, Molly, when you think about someone like Donald Trump, you know, his his views, have actually been fairly consistent about some of these issues for a long period of time and well before he became president.
他始终觉得，自己被占了便宜，国家被占了便宜，你必须对抗那些针对普通民众的制度和精英势力。
His his sense, of course, that he's being ripped off, that the country is being ripped off, that you have to, you know, take on these institutions and these elite forces that are, you know, arrayed against the common man.
这些观点他早就持有很久了。
These are all views that he's held for a long time.
你认为有魅力的人会精心挑选观点，以找出最能驱动追随者的内容吗？
Do you think that charismatic people carefully select their views to figure out what will be effective in driving their followers?
还是说，这只是历史的偶然——他们恰好拥有某些观点、信念，甚至个人故事，而这些恰好像钥匙一样，完美契合了当时周围人群的需求？
Or are they really accidents of history, which is that they happen to have a set of views and beliefs and perhaps even personal stories, and these happen to fit almost like a key into a lock into the needs of the people who are around them at the time.
这是个很好的问题。
That's a great question.
我认为，富有魅力的领导者必须具备一种天赋和直觉，能够洞察时代，识别出他们所处文化时刻中人们深层的焦虑与渴望，尤其是那些当前文化叙事未能服务的人群。
And I think the charismatic leaders have to have a kind of genius and an instinct for reading their time and identifying the driving anxieties and desires of their cultural moment, especially among people who are not being served by the narratives currently on offer in the culture.
但我从未遇到过一位让我觉得完全务实、只是随意拼凑一些观点、随意编造故事以求迎合大众的 charismatic 领导者。
But I have never run across a charismatic leader who struck me as 100% pragmatic and just adopting, you know, some some mix of views and and making up some story willy nilly purely because it seems like it will play well.
相反，我认为你说得对，必须存在某种魔力——一种领导者对自我本质的理解、其个人故事的某些方面，与他如何将这些故事的具体部分融入宏大叙事之间的协同作用。
Instead, I think you're right that there there has to be this kind of magic, this this synergy between the leader's natural self understanding and aspects of his or her own story and the way he connects specific parts of that story to this this grander picture.
提醒一下，如果你对莫莉·沃滕有任何问题或想法，愿意分享给《隐藏思维》的听众，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。
As a reminder, if you have questions or comments from Molly Worthen that you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.
两到三分钟就足够了。
Two or three minutes is plenty.
请将文件发送至 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。
Email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org.
邮件主题请写：charisma。
Use the subject line, charisma.
再次提醒，邮箱是 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。
Again, that's feedback@hiddenbrain.org.
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莫莉说，我们今天生活在一个导师的时代。
Molly says that we live today in the age of the guru.
我问她，这种具有魅力的领导者有什么特征。
I asked her what defines this type of charismatic leader.
我认为，以更广泛的意义来使用‘导师’这个词很有趣，同时也要记住，魅力型领导很少以纯粹的形式存在。
I think it's interesting to play with the term guru in a in a broad sense and and to remember too that charismatic leadership very rarely exists in in a pure form.
它通常与其他类型的权威结合在一起。
It's often combined with other kinds of authority.
因此，将导师视为一个彻底反体制的人物，把自己定位为通往真理与知识的门户，这种框架很有用。
So so the frame of the guru as a radically anti institutional figure who is positioning himself as the gateway to truth and knowledge.
我认为，这种框架有助于理解唐纳德·特朗普，当然，我们也必须认识到，他作为美国总统还拥有传统的制度性权威。
That that's a useful frame, I think, for understanding Donald Trump while, of course, also recognizing that he has conventional institutional authority as as the president of The United States.
但我认为，这是一种更广泛的文化现象，可以在政治光谱的各个层面看到它的体现。
But I think it's a it's a broader cultural phenomenon that we can see manifest across the political spectrum.
我对奥普拉·温弗瑞的故事产生了浓厚兴趣，以及她如何在媒体事业之外发展出一种个人化的、自助式的灵性。
I became fascinated by the story of Oprah Winfrey and the kind of personal do it yourself spirituality that she developed alongside her media career.
我认为她之所以如此有效且广受欢迎，尤其是在二十世纪八十年代中期、她三十多岁时迅速走红，是因为她成功让许多美国人相信，你在她的节目中看到的就是她真实的自我。
And I think much of her effectiveness and popularity, you know, really rocketing to fame in the in the mid nineteen eighties when she was in her thirties, lay in her ability to convince many Americans that what you were seeing on her show was was her authentic self.
那只是直截了当地提出困难的问题，揭开现实的面纱——而那些更讲究礼貌的脱口秀主持人往往会回避这些问题。
It was it was just, you know, straight shooting, asking the difficult questions, pulling back the veil on reality that, you know, more polite talk show hosts would ignore.
我在自己的节目中经常这么说。
I say this on my show all the time.
如果你没有真正生气过，你真的能原谅吗？
Can you really forgive if you haven't gotten angry?
如果你没有正视自己真实的情感呢？
If you haven't dealt with how you really feel?
我不确定，你是否能直接从遭受虐待的状态跨越到原谅。
I don't know if you can go from having been abused to forgiveness.
但这种做法被融入了一个更宏大的叙事中，即你应该如何在这个世界中生活，它借鉴了各种新时代宗教的影响，比如迪帕克·乔普拉——她简直就是一种对各类宗教与精神工具的杂食性消费者，从她自身基督教的背景——她成长过程中所接触的——到更偏向东方的宗教技巧，甚至包括将购物和消费描述为自我赋权、实现潜能的方式。
But it becomes folded into this broader story of how you should be in the world that draws on various new age religious influences, you know, Deepak Chopra and really a kind of she's a sort of omnivorous consumer of of all kinds of religious and spiritual tools, you know, every everything from her own Christian heritage, you know, what she grew up with to more kind of eastern religious techniques, to just a way of talking about shopping and acquisition as self empowerment and a way of actualizing your potential.
这些做法本质上都是在重新诠释宗教：不是让你加入一个传统社群、服从某个机构，而是把它看作一个工具箱，或者说是自助餐式的选项集合，一切都只是为了迎合你自己。
These are all a way of of recasting religion, not as joining a traditional community, you know, deciding to obey an institution, but rather think of it as a toolbox or a smorgasbord, if you will, of of options that are just all about suiting yourself.
因为只有你才有力量承担责任，推动你的生活向前发展。
Because only you have the power to take responsibility to move your life forward.
所以，我认为她为最忠实的粉丝们呈现了一整幅现实图景。
And so it's a whole picture of reality that I think she offered her most devoted fans.
这也解释了为什么在奥普拉的粉丝中，人们会感觉这位女性正在为他们指明一条道路、一种生活方式。
And it's it's part of why you encounter in Oprah's fans, a sense that this woman is is laying out a a path, a way of being.
你知道吗？
You know?
她不仅仅是一位脱口秀主持人。
She's not just a a talk show host.
所以，我认为‘精神导师’这个框架有助于我们理解这种整体文化图景，以及像唐纳德·特朗普和奥普拉这样截然不同的人。
So I I think that frame of the guru helps us make sense of this whole cultural picture and people as disparate as Donald Trump and Oprah.
我想我正在困扰的问题是，莫莉，我在想象，如果我生活在1936年的纳粹德国，一个救世主式的人物出现，向我讲述一个关于失落荣耀的故事，并告诉我，只要德国实现其全部潜力，辉煌就触手可及。
I think what I'm struggling with, Molly, is, you know, I'm trying to imagine what if I was, you know, somebody living in Nazi Germany in 1936, and this messianic leader comes along and basically tells me a story about lost glory and the glory that is achievable if Germany were to achieve its full potential.
我被这个故事所激励，想要追随这个人。
And I'm inspired by this story, and I want to follow this person.
当我感到自己被某个人的故事牢牢吸引，觉得它在我内心唤醒了什么，并且我迫切想要追随这个人时，我该做些什么？
What should I be doing when I feel like I'm gripped by somebody who has the story that feels like it's unlocking something within me and I feel like I need to follow this person?
在没有 hindsight（事后洞察）的条件下，我该问自己哪些问题？毕竟我没有奢侈到可以等三十年后再看事情会如何发展。
What are the questions I should ask myself that, you know, I don't have the luxury of hindsight of waiting thirty years to see how something has turned out?
但在当下，我该问自己什么样的问题，才能判断自己是否走在正确的道路上？
But in the moment, what kind of questions should I ask myself to determine if I'm on the right path?
天啊，这在某种程度上正是核心问题。
Boy, that that is in some ways the question.
对吧？
Right?
我认为你的问题之所以重要，是因为它迫使我们所有人认识到：即使那些事后看来道德上非黑即白的情况，当你身处其中时，也很难分清方向，难以找到道德的立足点。
And I think part of what your question has to compel in all of us is a recognition that even in these cases that in hindsight seem kind of black and white morally, If you're in it, it can be very hard to to tell, you know, up from down and get your moral bearings.
我想我有两个主要的想法。
I guess I have two main thoughts.
一是，如果你深深融入一个历史悠久的哲学或宗教传统，你就能充分运用它所提供的各种资源和视角，来应对人类经验中形形色色的挑战。
One is that this there's a real power to being embedded enough in a long standing ancient philosophical or religious tradition, that you can avail yourself of all of its resources and perspectives on a range of different challenges in human experience.
当我想到那些少数抵抗纳粹、始终对希特勒保持深刻批判的德国基督徒时，比如迪特里希·潘霍华试图暗杀他。
So when I think about the the small number of German Christians who resisted the Nazis and remained deeply critical of Hitler, even, you know, in the case of Dietrich Bonhoeffer attempting to assassinate him.
我认为这种清晰的道德洞察力源于扎根于整个传统，而不是领导者所推崇的那种被削弱的、功利化的传统版本。
I I see that clarity of moral vision as a reflection of staying grounded in the in the whole of the tradition, not whatever kind of attenuated useful version of this old tradition the the leader happens to be endorsing.
第二件必要的事是问：这位富有魅力的领导者把谁当作我的敌人？
The second needful thing is to ask, who is this charismatic leader casting as my enemy?
他告诉我谁是反派？
Who is he telling me is the villain?
我对这些人究竟了解多少？
And what do I actually know about those people?
我的信息来源是什么？
What are my sources of information?
在大多数情况下，对那些对大屠杀视而不见或直接参与其中的德国人来说，这些问题根本不在他们的考虑范围内。
In most cases, right, I mean, that that set of questions was not at top of mind for, for Germans, you know, who were looking the other way or directly complicit in the holocaust.
但对于那些帮助拯救犹太人、参与抵抗运动的少数人而言，他们对这些受害者作为个体、作为多维度人类的亲身了解，是抵御希特勒反犹宣传的关键。
But, for for the minority that that helped save Jews and worked in the resistance, that personal knowledge of these, victims as as individuals, as, you know, multidimensional humans was absolutely crucial in inoculating them against Hitler's antisemitic propaganda.
所以，在我们当前的时刻，我知道，我当然不希望无意中做出类比。
So, you know, in our in our current moment, and, you know, I I don't I certainly don't want to accidentally draw analogies.
我认为我们在进行历史类比时，必须始终保持谨慎。
I think we always have to be very careful in drawing historical analogies.
但毫无疑问，我们生活在一个绝大多数美国人无法以个人方式了解政治对立面人群的时代。
But certainly, we live in a time when very few Americans know in a personal way people who are on the other side of this of this political divide.
由于各种原因，这些关系很难建立。
And those relationships are are hard to come by for all kinds of reasons.
但至少，即使我们无法获得这些关系，我们也可以提醒自己这种信息匮乏的现状。
But at the very least, even if we don't have access to those relationships, we can remind ourselves of of that dearth of information.
人类是复杂的，任何关于对立面的单一化叙事，都必然掩盖了远多于它所阐明的内容。
The fact that human beings are complicated, and any kind of monolithic story of the other side has to obscure far more than it clarifies.
在最好的情况下，富有魅力的人能让混乱的世界显得更有条理。
In the best of times, charismatic people can make a chaotic world feel more orderly.
他们能为我们的日常生活注入目的和意义。
They can imbue our daily lives with purpose and meaning.
他们让我们感觉良好，我们渴望靠近他们。
They make us feel good, and we want to be close to them.
几个月前，我在新奥尔良，有人传出消息说泰勒·斯威夫特和特拉维斯·凯尔西正在一家餐厅的私人包间用餐。
I was in New Orleans some months ago, and word got out that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce were eating at a private room in a restaurant.
消息泄露后，人群很快开始聚集。
Word leaked out and soon the crowd started gathering.
这个十字路口很快就被数百人挤得水泄不通。
The intersection was soon swamped with hundreds of people.
他们只想要一睹偶像的风采。
All they wanted, a glimpse of their heroes.
这让我思考了魅力与浪漫爱情之间的联系。
It made me think about the connection between charisma and romantic love.
当我们深深坠入爱河时，我们所爱的人仿佛行走在水面上。
When we fall deeply in love, the person we adore seems to walk on water.
他们做的每一个动作都如此美好。
Every gesture they make is beautiful.
每一句话都像一颗珍珠。
Every word is a pearl.
仔细想想，我们对待恋人，就好像他们天生具有魅力一样。
When you think about it, we relate to our lovers as if they were imbued with charisma.
他们的怪癖、习惯、幽默感。
Their quirks, their habits, their sense of humor.
我们觉得他们的一切都如此迷人而吸引人。
We find every aspect of them to be fascinating and charming.
那么，当这样的关系结束时，会发生什么呢？
So what happens when one of these relationships comes to an end?
分手之所以令人崩溃，是因为我们必须强行脱离一个我们觉得无法抗拒的人的轨道。
Breakups are devastating because they demand that we wrench ourselves from the orbit of someone we found irresistible.
于是你开始觉得，哦，你根本不是我原来以为的那个人。
It becomes something like, oh, you're not entirely the person I thought you were.
我以为你会像我希望的那样珍视这段关系。
I thought that you would honor the relationship the way I hoped to honor the relationship.
稍后回来，我们将深入探讨分手心理学，并回答听众关于关系结束的问题。
When we come back, we dig deep into the psychology of breakups as we respond to listener questions about the end of relationships.
请继续关注。
Stay with us.
您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。
You're listening to Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
对。
Right.
我们大约有二十五秒的时间来向您介绍capital.com交易平台的所有优点。
We've got about twenty five seconds to tell you all the great things about the capital.com trading platform.
当然，其简洁友好的设计能帮助您更快地操作。
There's a clean user friendly design, of course, helps you get to things faster.
实时可定制图表，包含超过100种指标和绘图工具。
Real time customizable chart with more than a 100 indicators and drawings.
别忘了实时新闻推送。
Live news feed, don't forget that.
支持TradingView集成，如果你喜欢的话，哦，什么？
TradingView integration, if that's your thing and, oh, what?
我们没时间了？
We're out of time?
哦，好吧。
Oh, well.
前往capital.com，亲自了解其余内容。
Head to capital.com to find out the rest for yourself.
差价合约具有高风险。
CFDs involve a high level of risk.
83%的零售投资者亏损。
Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.
在全球不确定性中，非洲提供了机遇。
Amidst global uncertainty, Africa offers opportunities.
在2026年非洲市场大会上，来自非洲及全球的决策者将探讨政策改革、市场发展和私人资本如何大规模推动整个大陆的可持续增长。
At the African Markets Conference twenty twenty six, decision makers from across Africa and the world will explore how policy reform, market development, and private capital can accelerate sustainable growth across the continent at scale.
了解更多，请访问 standardbank.co.zac。
Learn more at standardbank.co.zacib.
标准银行是经授权的金融服务提供商和注册信贷机构。
Standard Bank is an authorized FSP and registered credit provider.
条款和条件适用。
Ts and Cs apply.
这是隐藏的思维。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
有一些痛苦的经历，几乎每个人都会经历。
There are certain painful experiences almost all of us will have to go through.
我们会经历在新学校或新工作中的不适第一天。
We'll have uncomfortable first days at a new school or a new job.
我们会与亲密的朋友争吵。
We'll fight with dear friends.
我们会面对失去父母的悲痛。
We'll grapple with the grief of losing a parent.
除非我们非常幸运，否则我们总会与某人分手，或被我们深爱的人伤害。
And unless we're very lucky, we'll break up with someone or have our heart broken by someone we love.
在电影和电视里，分手场景常常让我们发笑。
In movies and on TV, breakup scenes often make us laugh.
对我们观众来说，这段关系注定失败似乎显而易见。
It seems so obvious to us, the audience, that this relationship is doomed.
但在现实生活中，当你正身处分手的漩涡中时，往往没什么好笑的。
But in real life, there often isn't much to laugh about when you're in the middle of a breakup.
当你坐在深爱的人对面，听他们说出‘我要离开你’时，那是一种痛苦至极的体验。
When you're the one sitting across the table from the person you love, hearing them say I'm leaving you can be an agonizing experience.
分手后最初的震惊过去，随之而来的往往是一种独特的伤痛。
The period that follows the initial shock of a breakup can often bring its own distinct heartache.
你开始质疑一切。
You start to question everything.
他们真的爱过你吗？
Did they really love you?
你做错了什么？
What did you do wrong?
你能挽回他们吗？
Could you win them back?
有别人吗？
Was there someone else?
你需要多久才能不再想他们？
How long will it take you for you to stop thinking about them?
在加拿大温莎大学，安东尼奥·帕斯夸·莱昂研究我们如何应对分手，以及如何减轻这种特定类型损失带来的痛苦。
At the University of Windsor in Canada, Antonio Pascua Leone studies how we process breakups and how we can make this particular type of loss less painful.
安东尼奥是我们最近‘爱2.0’系列的嘉宾。
Antonio joined us as part of our recent Love two point o series.
如果你错过了那一集，那就是这个播客频道中名为《如何放下》的那一集。
If you missed that episode, it's the one in this podcast feed titled How to Move On.
今天，我们再次欢迎安东尼奥回来，回应听众们在我们热门环节《你的问题解答》中提出的想法和问题。
Today, we welcome Antonio back to respond to listeners' thoughts and questions in our popular segment, Your Questions Answered.
安东尼奥·帕斯卡莱·莱昂内，欢迎再次来到《隐藏思维》。
Antonio Pasquale Leone, welcome back to Hidden Brain.
谢谢你， Shankar。
Thank you, Shankar.
安东尼奥，在我们发布了与你的访谈节目后，我们收到了许多听众的来信，他们分享了自己在分手后经历的深刻悲伤，以及仍在挣扎的过程。
Antonio, after we released our episode with you, we heard from listeners who shared how they had struggled or were continuing to struggle with really deep sorrow in the aftermath of a breakup.
我想先从一位名叫莫莉的听众给我们的一条信息说起。
I'd like to start with this message we received from a listener named Molly.
她大约十三年前经历了一次分手，花了很长时间才从这段关系的失去中走出来。
She went through a breakup about thirteen years ago, and it took her a long time to get over the loss of the relationship.
为什么如果我曾经和这个人约会，而他去世了，我就会被允许，甚至被期待一生都继续爱着他？
Why is it that if I were dating this person and he died, I would be allowed and, in fact, even expected to continue loving him for the rest of my life?
但因为他还活着，我就被期望要放下，停止爱他，向前看。
But because he is not dead, I am expected to get over it, to stop loving him, to move on.
我不明白的是，这两者之间到底有什么区别？
What I don't understand is sort of what is the difference?
我的意思是，分手不就是一种死亡吗？
I mean, isn't a breakup essentially a death?
这段关系已经死了。
That relationship is dead.
我们曾经认识的那个人，现在对我们来说已经不复存在了。
The person that we knew is dead to us now.
为什么我们要以不同的方式对待分手，而不是对待更永久的失去？
Why are we supposed to approach breakups differently than an even more permanent kind of loss?
所以，安东尼奥，我认为莫莉是在寻求一种许可，允许她继续哀悼，远远超过别人认为她应该停止哀悼的时刻。
So Antonio, I think Molly is looking for permission to continue to grieve well beyond the point that others think she should stop grieving.
她是对的吗？
Is she right?
我的意思是，这个问题挺有意思的。
I mean, think it's an interesting question.
我能听出莫莉声音中的痛苦，她已经独自承受了十三年，十多年了。
I can hear the pain in Molly's voice and how she sort of has been sitting with this for thirteen years, over a decade.
对吧？
Right?
而问题的一部分，让我直接回答她的问题，我认为第一个问题是：分手和某人去世是否相同或相似？
And part of the problem, you know, let me just answer her question, which I think is the first part is, are breakups the same or similar to somebody just dying?
我的意思是，两者都会非常痛苦，但分手是因为对方不想继续这段关系。
And, I mean, they're both gonna be very hard, but you break up because someone doesn't want to be in the relationship.
有人不开心，希望结束这段关系。
Someone is unhappy and someone wants it to end.
所以双方的愿景存在差异，这一点必须面对。
So there's a difference in vision, and that has to be dealt with.
这必须被被分手的一方所接受。
That has to be accepted by the person who's being broken up with.
在死亡的情况下，两个人可能都过得很幸福，然后其中一人离世了。
In death, it's possible that both people are really happy, and then somebody dies.
所以这只能被接受。
And so it just has to be accepted.
你知道，你可能会觉得世界不公平，但这并不是两个人对彼此未来愿景的冲突。
You know, you might feel like the universe is unfair, but but it's not a struggle between two people's visions of what what we could do together.
是的。
Right.
所以当有人去世时，我们可能会为他们哀悼，但并不会觉得被他们拒绝。
So when someone dies, we may grieve them, but we don't necessarily feel rejected by them.
但在分手中，提出分手的那个人仍然活着，继续过自己的生活，也许现在还和别人在一起。
But in a breakup, the person who splits up with you is still walking around, still doing their thing, perhaps now with someone else.
我知道，从某些角度看，这可能会更痛苦。
You know, I can see in some ways how that can be more painful.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你们之间存在分歧，对事物的看法不同。
I mean, you have a disagreement, a difference in in in how you see things.
对吧？
Right?
这段关系已经到期了，或者变质了，或者走到了尽头。
There's the relationship has expired or turned sour or run its course.
你知道，莫莉提到的，或者我想到的另一点是，这已经持续很久了。
You know, the other piece that Molly kind of points at or that comes to my mind is this has been a long time.
对吧？
Right?
当然，一个人的认知资源和其他资源都被困在这件事上，而生活中还有更多值得去经历的东西。
And, of course, one's resources, cognitive, and otherwise are trapped kind of stuck on this, and there might be more life to live.
对吧？
Right?
结束一段关系很重要，这样人才能感到自由，去探索新的可能性。
It's important to end something so that one feels freed up to explore new possibilities.
安东尼奥，一位听众写信提出了一个假设，解释为什么分手后事情往往在好转之前会变得更糟。
Antonio, a listener wrote in with a hypothesis about why things often get worse before they get better after a breakup.
卡洛斯·阿尔贝托在网上看到一篇文章，说关系结束后，人们可能会对前任产生某种戒断反应。
Carlos Alberto saw something online that said that after a relationship ends, people may experience a withdrawal of sorts from their ex partner.
这篇文章基本上认为，分手后我们感受到的痛苦，可能类似于成瘾者出现的渴求感。
Essentially, the post suggested that the struggle we feel after a breakup might be similar to the cravings of someone experiencing an addiction.
以下是卡洛斯·阿尔贝托的说法。
Here's Carlos Alberto.
我觉得这种观点把关系简化得太厉害了，没有涵盖其中所有复杂的情况。
And I feel that this view is very reductive of the relationship and it doesn't really encompass all the complex things that are going around.
但另一方面，我觉得这种说法在某种程度上是有道理的。
But on the other hand, I do feel that it makes sense in a certain way.
所以我的问题是，把分手看作是戒除成瘾这种理解是否有价值，还是说这只是一个不值得深究的死胡同。
So my question is specifically if there is value in this understanding of breakups as recovering from addiction or if this is a rabbit hole that is not really worth exploring.
安东尼奥，你觉得呢？
What do you think, Antonio?
把分手的悲痛比作戒断反应，这个说法准确吗？
Is the comparison between breakup grief and addiction withdrawal on the money?
你知道吗，你刚提到这个观点时，我想：我不确定。
You know, when you first introduced it, thought, well, I don't know.
然后卡洛斯一开口，我就意识到我和卡洛斯的想法是一致的。
And then the first thing Carlos said, I realized Carlos and I were on the same page.
这确实有点过于简化了，对吧？
It is a bit reductionistic, right?
你知道，戒除成瘾过程中有些行为上的做法，可能在摆脱一段感情时也有类似的模式。
You know, there are some things that are just very sort of functional in terms of getting over an addiction that might be similar behaviorally in terms of getting over a relationship.
你得改变自己的生活方式。
Going to have to change your lifestyle.
你得改变你交往的人。
You're going to have to change who you hang out with.
所以这里确实有一些相似之处，但我认为关系和哀伤的问题会变得更加复杂。
So there's some similarity there, but I think the issue of relationships and grief become also more complicated.
这是一种简化。
It is reductionist.
就把它看作如此吧，因为正如卡洛斯所暗示的，还有其他关于个人意义、依恋和身份的问题，而这些在药物成瘾中并没有对应之处。
Think of it as just that because as Carlos was kind of hinting, there are other issues of personal meaning, of attachment, of identity, and you know there's no correlate there with respect to
药物成瘾。
drug addiction.
一位名叫克里夫的听众安东尼奥发来一个问题，询问如何判断自己是陷入停滞，还是只是在从分手中恢复。
Antonio, a listener named Cliff reached out with a question about how to know when we might be stalled out versus taking time to recover from a breakup.
克里夫和他妻子在青少年时期相识，他们结婚二十五年。
Cliff and his wife got together when they were teenagers, They were married for twenty five years.
但八年前，克里夫的妻子提出了离婚。
But eight years ago, Cliff's wife asked for a divorce.
这让他措手不及，他说自己至今仍难以走出阴影。
It threw him for a loop, and he says he's still struggling to move on.
以下是他的原话。
Here he is.
我身体健康、精力充沛，事业也不错，但情感上却感觉无法向前迈进。
I'm healthy, active, and have a good career, Yet I feel unable to move forward emotionally.
即使已经过去了八年，想到在五十多岁重新开始约会，仍然觉得不可能。
The idea of dating again in my 50s, even after eight years, still feels impossible.
独处比再次冒着被伤害或突然受挫的风险更让我感到安全。
Being alone feels safer than risking being hurt or blindsided again.
同时，我也意识到这种想法可能是不合理的。
At the same time, I recognize that this belief may be irrational.
安东尼奥，我的问题是：我该如何区分哪些想法是不理性的，哪些只是反映了谨慎或自我保护？
My question for Antonio is: How can I tell the difference between thoughts that are irrational and those that may simply reflect caution or self protection?
长期选择独身，是对我的经历的非理性反应，还是对我当前状态的一种合理选择？
Is choosing to remain alone indefinitely, an irrational response to my experience, or could it be a reasonable choice for where I am now?
像我这样的人，即使尝试约会，又该如何开始信任这段关系可能带来的感情起伏呢？
And how might someone in my position, even if I tried dating, begin to trust the emotional roller coaster that can come from it?
所以，Cliff提出了一个非常有趣的问题，安东尼奥。
So Cliff raises a really interesting point, Antonio.
要分清健康自我保护和非理性恐惧之间的界限，并不总是容易的。
It isn't always easy to tell where the line is between healthy self protection and irrational fear.
你对他有什么建议吗？
Do you have any advice for him?
当我想到他可能在怀疑这种想法是否非理性时，我心中充满同情，这说明他确实考虑过这个问题。
My my heart goes out to him when one sort of speculates that it may be irrational that suggests that it's something that's crossed his mind.
你知道吗？
You know?
但你也没有义务去和别人约会。
But there's also no obligation to date other people.
你不必非得去。
You don't have to.
决定‘我一个人过得很好’，这没什么不对。
There's nothing wrong with deciding, well, I'm fine on my own.
这样也很好。
That's okay too.
所以，真正的问题变成了什么更让人痛苦？
So really the question sort of becomes what hurts more?
你的生活中缺少了什么？
What's missing in your life?
你的生活中有什么缺失吗？
Is something missing in your life?
我的意思是，人生本来就是充满风险的。
I mean, life is risky business.
所以，你知道的，我们约会某个人，他们可能对你没兴趣，或者你对他们也没那么感兴趣。
So, you know, we date somebody and they might not be interested in you or you might be not so interested in them.
然后，我的意思是，找到合适的人需要付出很多努力。
And then there's that whole I mean, it's a lot of work finding the right person.
但你知道，我们找人并不是因为方便。
But, you know, we don't look for people because it's convenient.
我们找人是因为我们渴望连接。
We look for people because we want to connect.
所以我认为，克里夫，或许值得思考一下：我正在多大程度上剥夺了自己可能的机会，对吧？
And so I think, Cliff, it might be useful to sort of consider to what extent am I depriving myself of possibilities, right?
我认识一个人，他曾说，我跟某人分手，是为了让自己还有机会再次坠入爱河，你知道的？
I knew somebody who once said, I broke up with so and so so that I would have the possibility of falling in love again, you know?
那么，我想知道，你需要什么？什么最让你痛苦？
So what do you need, I guess, and what hurts the most?
因为太过安全同样也要付出代价。
Because it costs you something to be so safe as well.
分手后，我们最常问的问题大多是‘为什么’。
Many of the most common questions we ask after a breakup are why questions.
我们想要弄清楚这段关系为何破裂。
We want to understand why this rupture happened.
我们不断回顾这段关系，寻找线索。
We find ourselves poring over our relationship, looking for clues.
当我们回来时，会更深入探讨这个过程，并与安东尼奥聊聊如何判断何时该开始放手。
When we come back, we dig deeper into this process, and we'll talk with Antonio about how to know when it's time to start letting go.
您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。
You're listening to Hidden Brain.
我是 Shankar Vedanta。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
没错。
Right.
我们只剩下大约二十五秒来向您介绍 capital.com 交易平台的诸多优势。
We've got about twenty five seconds to tell you all the great things about the capital.com trading platform.
界面简洁友好，当然能帮助您更快地找到所需功能。
There's a clean user friendly design, of course, helps you get to things faster.
实时可自定义图表，提供一百多种指标和绘图工具。
Real time customizable chart with more than a 100 indicators and drawings.
别忘了实时新闻推送。
Live news feed, don't forget that.
支持 TradingView 集成，如果您需要的话，哦，什么？
TradingView integration, if that's your thing and, oh, what?
我们没时间了？
We're out of time?
哦，好吧。
Oh, well.
前往 capital.com 自行了解其余内容。
Head to capital.com to find out the rest for yourself.
差价合约具有高风险。
CFDs involve a high level of risk.
百分之八十三的散户投资者亏损。
Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.
在全球不确定性加剧的背景下，非洲提供了机遇。
Amidst global uncertainty, Africa offers opportunities.
在2026年非洲市场大会上，来自非洲及全球的决策者将探讨如何通过政策改革、市场发展和私人资本，大规模推动整个大陆的可持续增长。
At the African Markets Conference twenty twenty six, decision makers from across Africa and the world will explore how policy reform, market development, and private capital can accelerate sustainable growth across the continent at scale.
了解更多请访问 standardbank.co.za。Standard Bank 是经授权的金融服务提供商和注册信贷提供方。
Learn more at standardbank.co.zacibstandardbank is an authorised FSP and registered credit provider.
适用条款和条件。
Ts and Cs apply.
这是《隐藏的思维》。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
在我们的一生中，都会经历各种形式的拒绝。
Throughout our lives, we all will experience various kinds of rejections.
也许我们会被拒之于学校戏剧的演出之外。
Maybe we'll be turned down for a part in the school play.
我们梦想的大学也会对我们说不。
Our dream university will say no to us.
我们费尽心力提交求职申请，却只收到一封通用回复：谢谢，但不必了。
We'll toil over a job application only to receive a generic response saying, Thanks, but no thanks.
但最糟糕的拒绝形式之一，就是一段关系的终结。
But one of the worst forms of rejection is the end of a relationship.
有人对你说：我了解你，我爱过你，但我再也不想和你在一起了。
To have someone say I know you, I loved you, but I no longer want to be with you.
安东尼奥·帕斯夸尔·莱昂是一名心理学家，研究人际关系对我们幸福感的影响，以及我们如何应对分手后席卷而来的各种情绪。
Antonio Pascual Leone is a psychologist who studies the impact of relationships on our well-being and how we can navigate the emotions that engulf us after a breakup.
安东尼奥，当你向人们介绍你的研究时，他们有时会对分手后我们所经历的情绪是否具有普遍性表示怀疑。
Antonio, when you tell people about your research, they are sometimes skeptical about whether the emotions we experience after a breakup are generalizable.
他们认为每个人的感受都是独一无二的。
They assume that each person's response is unique.
真的是这样吗？
Is it?
每个人确实都是独特的。
Well, each person is unique.
你知道，在细节上，在你体验它的方式以及它对你的意义方面，这就像指纹一样。
You know, in the details, in the way you experience it and what it means to you, obviously, that's like a thumbprint.
这是你独特的经历。
That's your unique experience.
但与此同时，这其实不是一个观点问题。
And at the same time, you know, is it unique isn't actually going to be an opinion question.
这是一个实证问题。
This is an empirical question.
有一些共同的模式可以预测幸福感的结果，而这可能是因为我们都是人类，人类的功能有着相似的参数。
There are some common patterns that predict wellness outcomes, and, you know, that's probably because we're humans, and humans have similar parameters for their functioning.
你知道，人们会关注某些东西，因为人类的需求有很多重叠之处。
You know, you attend to certain there's a lot of overlapping human needs.
这真是个有趣的谜题，因为如果我是个天体物理学家，我会说，好吧，就像这样，人们就会点头说，好的。
It's a funny puzzle, though, because if if I were an astrophysicist, I would say, well, it's like this, and people would sort of nod and go, okay.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
我看不了那么远，所以我只能相信你的话。
I can't see that far, so I'll take your word for it.
但关系和情感，每个人都有切身体验，这固然很好，但也意味着人们会用我们的发现去对照他们的个人信念和亲身经历。
But relationships and emotion, everybody has direct experience, which is kind of wonderful, but it also means that people hold up what we find against their personal belief systems, personal kind of experiences.
分手后，许多人会反复在脑海中琢磨事情，这个过程被称为反刍。
Now after a breakup, many people find themselves turning things over and over in their minds, a process that is known as rumination.
谈谈我们为什么会这样，以及为什么这有时会成为一个问题。
Talk a moment about why we do this and why it can sometimes be a problem.
反刍几乎总是个问题。
Well, rumination is almost always a problem.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，很难分辨。
I mean, it's tricky to know.
我是在反刍，还是在真正做事？
Am I ruminating or am I getting stuff done?
反刍只是表面忙碌。
Rumination is busy work.
对吧？
Right?
这是情绪化的。
It's emotional.
那里有各种情绪。
There are emotions there.
对吧？
Right?
你可以把反刍分为三种类型。
You can think of three kinds of rumination.
焦虑型反刍总是担心未来，不断设想各种情景。
The anxious rumination is always worrying about the future and creating scenarios.
如果这样怎么办？如果那样怎么办？
What if this and what if that?
当我们谈论未完成的事或损失，比如感情上的失去时，就会出现更多的抑郁型反刍。
When we talk about things like unfinished business or losses, relationship losses, you'll get more depressive rumination.
抑郁型反刍通常关乎过去。
Depressive rumination tends to be about the past.
这并不是关于解决问题，而是关于‘如果我当时’、‘如果我曾经’，你知道的，这是一种对过去事件的遗憾式反复回想，想象如果它们稍有不同会怎样。
It's not about problem solving, but it's about if only I should, if only I had, you know, it's regrets kind of replaying events of the past and if they had been a little bit different.
当然，抑郁性反刍和焦虑性反刍之间是有重叠的。
Of course, there's an overlap between depressive and anxious rumination.
第三种我简单提一下，以保持完整。
The third kind I'll just mention to be complete here.
我相信我们还能想出其他类型，但当我们谈论人际关系时，有一种是愤怒性反刍。
I'm sure we could make up others, but when we're talking about relationship is angry rumination.
所以，你知道，这些也都是各种情景。
So, you know, but and these also are scenarios.
它们往往在最后会带有报复性，某种意义上是这样。
They tend to be vengeful at at the end, right, in certain kind of ways.
如果我当时说了那个聪明的话，我希望那个人得到报应。
If only I had said that clever thing, and and I hope so and so gets their comeuppance.
但请注意，这些全都是基于情景的。
But notice these are all scenario based.
它们往往是对某种情境的反复重现。
They tend to be a a replaying of a scenario.
这是情节和角色的重新演绎，通常会形成一种非常认知性的语言循环。
It's the plot and characters, being reworked, and, it tends to be a very cognitive verbal loop.
让你忙个不停。
Keeps you really busy.
尤其是当它属于焦虑型时，你会觉得自己在某种程度上很有成效，但这种语言认知循环却让你远离了真正正在发生的事情——也就是当下，对吧？
So especially when it's anxious, you feel productive in some sort of way, and yet that that verbal cognitive loop insulates you from sinking a bit deeper into what's really going on, which is the present, right?
失去的问题、羞耻的问题，可能非常痛苦。
Issues of loss, issues of shame that can be very painful.
你不会陷入那些更具适应不良性的更深层情绪，因为你一直停留在这些次要的、无望的、无助的、愤怒的情绪上。
You don't get caught up in those much more maladaptive emotions because you stay on these secondary hopeless, helpless, rageful sort of things.
我们收到了大量听众关于反刍思维的问题。
We received a lot of listener questions about rumination.
我想和你们分享其中几个。
I'd like to share a couple of them with you.
第一个来自一位名叫索菲的听众。
The first is from a listener named Sophie.
索菲告诉我们，她和男友今年早些时候分手了，原因是她做了一件事。
Sophie told us that she and her boyfriend broke up earlier this year because of something that she did.
以下是她的话。
Here she is.
我正试图拼凑出两个版本的自己：一个深爱着他的我，和一个做了那种事、伤害了他的我。
I'm trying to piece together this version of me that loved him so much and then this version of me that did what I did and hurt him.
但这两个版本完全无法连接，这让我感到非常害怕、不安，甚至开始质疑自己是否是个好人，是否值得拥有浪漫关系。
And the two just aren't connecting, and it really scares me and freaks me out and makes me question whether or not I am a good person, a person who should be in romantic relationships.
如果一段分手本质上是你的错，是否真的有可能彻底走出阴影并痊愈？
Is it possible to truly move on and heal from a breakup that was essentially your fault?
所以索菲陷入了这样的想法：也许她并不是自己以为的那种伴侣，甚至不是那种人。
So Sophie is stuck on the idea that perhaps she isn't the kind of partner or maybe even the kind of person that she thought she was.
安东尼奥，当人们陷入这种反复思虑的循环时，该怎么办？
What can people do when they find themselves in this sort of ruminative cycle, Antonio?
索菲正在做的一件事，至少在这个片段中，是把自己看成相对固定不变的，对吧？
One thing Sophie is doing is, or at least in this, excerpt, right, is thinking of herself in a relatively static way, right?
就像我伤害了别人。
It's like I hurt somebody.
我结束了这段关系。
I ended the relationship.
在生活中和关系中，你需要重新塑造自己。
So in life and in relationships, get to get to reinvent yourself.
你现在有选择。
You have choices now.
你可以决定用不同的方式行事。
You get to decide to do things differently.
如果你对自己对待某人的方式感到后悔，你可以承诺不再这样对待其他人。
If you have regrets about the way you treated somebody, you can commit to not treating other people in that way.
我不认为你应该坐等自己变得完美才进入一段关系，因为现实并不是这样的。
And I don't think you should sit around and wait until you're perfect before you're in a relationship because that's not really how it works.
没有人能把一切都安排得完美无缺，事实上，你成长最快的时候，正是在你与他人接触的边界点上。
Nobody's got it all sorted out perfectly, and the truth is you grow the most on contact points, on the boundary line between you and someone else.
你成长得最快。
You grow the fastest.
妥协很难。
It's hard to compromise.
协商很难。
It's hard to negotiate.
很难有‘我们’的感觉，但这种关系会改变你，因此，当你进入一段新的关系时，你会变成一个不同的人。
It's hard to have a sense of we, but that changes you, And so you'll become a different person by being in a different relationship.
我想象，当分手来得突然，而你又不明白对方为何突然结束关系时，反复思虑的过程会特别常见。
I would imagine that the rumination process is particularly common when a breakup is sudden and you don't know why the other person cut things off.
一位名叫弗里达的听众写信讲述了她最近的分手经历。
A listener named Frida wrote in about her recent breakup.
她的男朋友突然和她结束了关系。
Her boyfriend ended things with her out of the blue.
她写道：我真的不知道他为什么突然提出分手。
She writes, I really don't know exactly why he broke it off.
我多次请求和他谈谈，但他总是找借口拒绝沟通。
I've asked to talk with him several times, and he always makes excuses not to talk.
以前的感情都是逐渐结束的，或者有明确的原因。
Previous relationships have ended gradually or with a clear reason.
我很难走出来，仍然想和他谈谈发生了什么。
I'm having a hard time moving on and still want to talk with him about what happened.
你有什么建议可以帮助我走出这段感情吗？
Any advice on how to move on?
安东尼奥，我想知道，当一段关系结束，而提出分手的人又不愿给出任何解释时，我们该如何获得 closure？
Wondering, Antonio, how can we find closure when a relationship ends and the person who has ended it won't give us any answers?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得很多人都会卡在这种状态里。
I think a lot of people get stuck there.
有时候甚至会出现彻底失联或其他非常突然的结束方式，对方虽然还在某处，却毫无回应。
Sometimes there's even ghosting or other sorts of very abrupt endings, and the person's out there somewhere, but they're unresponsive.
在我们做的那一期节目中，我们谈到了这样一个观点：尽管这段关系是一个共同的项目，但在我放手并走出这段关系之后，这已不再是一个共同的项目。
In the episode we did, something that we talked about was the idea that although the relationship was a shared project, me letting go and moving on after the relationship is not a shared project.
我们不会像一起开始一样一起结束，也就是说，不会同步地分手，对吧？
We will not be doing that together just like we don't break up together, meaning in synchrony, right?
从此以后，这变成了我自己的事情。
And henceforth it's like this is my own project.
显然，主动联系对方并没有什么错。
Obviously reaching out, there's nothing wrong with that.
试图进行对话，试图获得 closure（了结）。
Trying to have a conversation, trying to get closure.
也许你有一些话想对对方说，也许你有一些问题想问。
Maybe there are things that you want to tell the person, maybe the things you want to ask.
但你知道，你会以对自己有益的方式去利用这些。
But you know that you will make use of that in the way that's useful to you.
如果他们无法联系或不愿意，那本身也是一种信息。
And if they're unavailable or unwilling, then that is actually information.
这会让你觉得，你其实并不是我原来以为的那个人。
It it becomes something like, oh, you're not entirely the person I thought you were.
我以为你会像我希望的那样尊重这段关系。
I thought that you would would honor the relationship the way I hope to honor the relationship.
所以，这在某种程度上是另一种失去，但我想说的是，这段关系的放下是由你来决定的。
So that's that's another loss in some ways, but, the relationship is yours to move on from is what I'm trying to say.
一位名叫珍妮弗的听众来信，讲述了一段关系和平结束，但双方仍希望保持联系、继续做朋友的情况。
A listener named Jennifer wrote in about a situation where a relationship ends amicably, but the two people actually want to stay in contact with one another and try to remain friends.
这是珍妮弗的话。
Here's Jennifer.
我真的很纠结该如何做，因为我还在处理自己的情绪包袱和内心的伤痛。
I'm really struggling with how to do that because I'm just still working through my emotional baggage and, the hurt that I feel.
但总有一天，我是想这么做的。
And at some point, I want to do it.
我的问题是，这能做到吗？
Can it be done is my question.
我们各自需要做些什么才能让这件事发生，还是说这根本就是一个巨大的错误？
What do we need to do to make that happen, each of us individually, or is it a giant mistake?
我在想，安东尼奥，你有没有见过前伴侣最终成为朋友的成功案例？
I'm wondering, Antonio, have you seen any success stories of exes finding their way to becoming friends?
是的。
Yeah.
不过，这将是一条漫长的路。
That's going to be a long road, though.
这不会一夜之间发生，我认为当人们真的做到时，这是很棒的。
It's not going to happen overnight, and I think it's wonderful when people do.
你知道，这取决于分手已经过去多久，以及是否已经真正放下，但有时候，这只不过是更容易地让对方失望的一种方式。
You know it depends how long ago the breakup has been, and if that has been put to rest, but you know sometimes that's just a way of letting the other person down more easily.
你知道，这里的一个难题，也是为什么必须有一些时间间隔的原因。
You know, one of the puzzles here and one of the reasons why there there's gonna have to be some some time off, let's say.
你知道吗，我们想成为朋友，是因为这紧随一段非常亲密和紧密的恋爱关系之后，还是因为如果我不认识你，而在图书馆偶遇你，我们可能会成为朋友？
You know, are are are we wanting to be friends just because it follows on the heels of a very intimate and tight romantic relationship, Or are we wanting to be friends because if I didn't know you and I bumped into you at the library, we might become friends?
其中一个难题，我想说得清楚一点，是这段关系的目标。
One of the puzzles, I I just wanna be really clear about it, is the goal of the relationship.
那将是一种新的关系，因为你已经和这个人达到了你们所知关系中的亲密极限。
That that would be the new relationship, because you've kind of maxed out in terms of intimacy in the relationship with the person as you know them.
你们曾经一起生活，分享梦想，有过亲密关系。
You have been together, shared life, had dreams, made love.
这种亲密程度可能超过大多数友谊。
That's probably more intimate than most friendships.
所以现在你在寻找友谊。
So now you're looking for friendship.
这就像是在倒退这段关系。
So it's kind of to roll back the relationship.
这不会再是原来的关系了。
It's not gonna be the same relationship.
如果你能成为朋友，那将是在一个完全不同的背景下了解这个人。
If you're able to become friends, it'll be getting to know the person in a whole different context.
我父母就是一个有趣的例子。
My parents is a funny example.
我十岁的时候，我父母分开了。
My parents split up when I was 10.
我父亲再婚了，某种程度上，我想他们还是保持了联系。
My father remarried, and in some ways, I guess they kept in touch.
不过对很多人来说，我不想替他们发言，对吧？
Well, for many, I don't want to speak for them, right?
但关键是，他们有了孩子。
But it's like, well, they had kids.
这成了一个共同的项目，对吧？
That becomes a shared project, right?
所以当我谈到重新定义关系时，这种关系就变成了共同抚养孩子，而这很重要，对吧？
So when I say redefine the relationship, the relationship becomes then about co parenting, and that's important, right?
我们有不同的目标，结局也不同。
We have different goals and there's a different end.
现在我父母都年纪大了，我记得我们会一起过节或庆祝生日。
Now my parents are quite elderly, and I remember, you know, we get together for holidays or birthdays.
我父亲、我母亲、我的继母，还有我的兄弟们。
My father, my mother, my stepmother, my brothers.
所有人都围坐在同一张桌子旁，感觉很棒，对吧？
Everybody's at the same table, and it's great, right?
你能看出这些人现在已经是朋友了，对吧？有一种社区感。如果珍妮弗希望如此，她的关系也会经历一次重塑，但这不会一夜之间发生。
And you can tell these are now friends, right, and there's a sense of community, So there's going to be a reinvention of the relationship for Jennifer if that's what she wants, and it's not going to happen overnight.
你真的需要花一些时间。
You're really going to have to give some time.
你仍然需要结束这段关系。
You still have to end the relationship.
当我们经历分手时，感觉我们不仅仅是在对伴侣说再见。
When we go through a breakup, it can feel like we are saying more than just goodbye to our partner.
我们还在向共同设想的未来告别。
We're also saying goodbye to the future we imagine together.
那些我们计划去旅行的地方，我们打算共同建立的生活，很难想象该如何继续前行，如何填补留下的所有空白。
The trips we would take, the life we would build, it's hard to imagine how to move forward, how to fill in all the gaps left behind.
接下来，安东尼奥将回答您关于如何在分手后找到内心平静的问题，并提供如何避免分手的建议。
Up next, Antonio will answer your questions about how to find peace after a breakup and offer guidance on how to avoid a split in the first place.
您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。
You're listening to Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
作为一名交易员，你可能非常热衷于派对，总是告诉朋友，七巨头股票已经超买，黄金并非如大家所想的那样是避险资产，或者狗狗币可能成为下一个比特币。
As a trader, you're probably great fan of parties, always telling your friends that the magnificent seven stocks are overbought, that gold isn't the safe haven everyone thinks it is, or that Doge could be the next Bitcoin.
不过，也许你不会这么说。
Well, maybe not that.
但如果这听起来像你，相信我们。
But if this sounds like you, trust us.
我们Capital.com认为您非常出色。
We at capital.com think you sound brilliant.
今天就与我们一同探索这些市场及其他更多领域。
Explore all these markets and more with us today.
Capital.com。
Capital.com.
聪明交易。
Trade smart.
差价合约具有高风险。
CFDs involve a high level of risk.
百分之八十三的零售投资者亏损。
Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.
在全球不确定性中，非洲提供了机遇。
Amidst global uncertainty, Africa offers opportunities.
在2026年非洲市场大会上，来自非洲及全球的决策者将探讨如何通过政策改革、市场发展和私人资本大规模推动非洲大陆的可持续增长。
At the African Markets Conference twenty twenty six, decision makers from across Africa and the world will explore how policy reform, market development, and private capital can accelerate sustainable growth across the continent at scale.
了解更多，请访问standardbank.co.za。Standard Bank是经授权的金融服务提供商和注册信贷提供方。
Learn more at standardbank.co.zacibstandardbank is an authorised FSP and registered credit provider.
条款和条件适用。
Tees and Sees apply.
这是隐藏的思维。
This is Hidden Brain.
我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。
I'm Shankar Vedanta.
安东尼奥·帕斯夸莱·莱昂是加拿大温莎大学的心理学家。
Antonio Pasquale Leone is a psychologist at the University of Windsor in Canada.
他是《情绪改变的原则：心理治疗与日常生活中有效的方法与时机》的作者。
He's the author of Principles of Emotion Change What Works and When in Psychotherapy and Everyday Life.
今天，他加入我们，参与我们系列节目《您的问题解答》的最新一期。
He joins us today for the latest installment in our series, Your Questions Answered.
安东尼奥，分手并不总是出人意料的。
Antonio, breakups are not always a surprise.
有时候我们知道一段关系并不合适，却依然坚持下去。
Sometimes we know that a relationship isn't meant to be, and we pursue it anyway.
我们的听众西琳就经历过这样的事。
This happened to one of our listeners named Celine.
她的伴侣最近提出了分手，而西琳逐渐意识到，她自己的情绪问题可能正在破坏她的关系。
Her partner recently broke things off, and Celine is coming to realize that her own emotional issues might be playing a role in undermining her relationships.
以下是她的讲述。
Here she is.
简而言之，在我的情况中，我知道这段关系为什么没能成功。
Basically, long story short in my scenario, I know why it didn't work out.
当时存在很多沟通问题、情感疏离，以及由此导致的缺乏努力。
There was a lot of communication issues and emotional disconnection and lack of effort because of it.
更让我难以接受的是，我竟然是通过语音消息被分手的。
What didn't help and a punch in the gut was the fact that I was dumped through a voice note.
我现在挣扎的是，不断责怪自己为什么没能主动结束这段关系。
So what I'm currently struggling with is a lot of self blame that I couldn't get myself to end it.
我想我的另一个问题是，我在还没开始自我成长之前，就容易陷入孤独，渴望陪伴，还没准备好就急着开始新的关系。
And I guess my other issue is that I fall into loneliness and crave companionships before I get any work done on myself and basically start seeing other people before I know I'm ready.
我足够了解自己，知道这绝对是另一个我必然会面对的挑战。
And I know myself enough that this is another struggle that is for sure to be expected.
所以听起来，塞琳娜知道自己需要改进什么，安东尼奥，但她很难坚持下去，因为孤独感总逼着她去开启一段新关系。
So it sounds like Celine is aware of what she needs to work on, Antonio, but finds it really difficult to follow through before loneliness compels her to start a new relationship.
你如何看待她的困境？
What do you make of her dilemma?
我觉得塞琳娜想表达的是，我希望她能明白，如果她觉得自己还在成长中，那也没关系。
I think what Celine is saying is I hope she feels like it's okay if I it's like she's saying I'm a work in progress.
对吧？
Right?
但我们每个人都是如此。
But we all are.
我想对塞琳娜说，我也是。
I'd say to Selena, I am too.
你知道，还有很多工作要做，但这并不意味着必须改变关系才能提升自己。
You know, so there's work to be done, and that doesn't mean one has to change relationships to improve oneself.
当一个人发生变化时，往往也在重新塑造自己的关系。
One is often reinventing relationships as one changes who one is.
但当她谈到自己的情绪问题时，无论这些问题是什么，她提到了一种缺乏努力的现象，这让我有点在意，因为有时候人们会说，‘我们看看事情会怎么发展吧。’
But when she says about her own emotional issues, whatever they might be, she made reference to sort of a lack of effort, and that piqued me a little bit because, you know, sometimes people say things like, Well, you know, we'll see where it goes.
当我听到有人谈论缺乏努力，或者‘我们看看事情会怎么发展’时，我会有点反感。
I hear somebody talk about lack of effort or we'll see where it goes, I cringe a little bit.
我会想，我能大概猜到事情会往哪个方向发展，因为现实是，连续关系的成功率普遍很低，对吧？
I kind of go, Well, I can make a good guess where it's going to go because the reality is that the rate of successive relationships is relatively poor, right?
如果我们看离婚率，可能接近百分之五十，具体取决于你所在的地方。
If we go by divorce rates are maybe you know, close to fifty percent depending on where you are.
我只是在谈统计数据。
I'm just talking statistics.
百分之五十，这是很差的几率。
Fifty percent, those are bad odds.
如果你不确定自己是否希望这段关系成功，那么你就放弃了自己唯一的筹码。
If you aren't sure that you want it to work, well, now you've given up your only leverage.
对吧？
Right?
关系之所以能维系，是因为你主动投入其中，因此你需要思考：我在哪些方面没有真正投入？
Relationships work because you lean into them, and for that reason, one needs to sort of, think about in what kinds of ways am I not leaning in?
是什么阻碍了我去爱一个人，或允许对方爱我？
What gets in the way of me loving someone or allowing them to love me?
所以我认为这非常关键。
So I think that's really key.
塞琳的问题突显了我们在经历分手后，要找到内心的平静是多么困难。
Celine's question really highlighted how difficult it is to find a sense of ease when we've gone through a breakup.
你探讨了一些在这些时刻能提供帮助的策略。
You've explored strategies that can help in these moments.
其中一个想法是关注你所说的未被满足的需求。
One idea is to focus on identifying what you call unmet needs.
安东尼奥，再多说说这个。
Say more about this, Antonio.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
所有情绪都与需求有关，负面情绪则源于未被满足的需求。
All emotion is about needs, and negative emotions are about unmet needs.
而且，当你
And, you know, when you
达到
get to
更深层的感受时，我称之为主要情绪，它们不仅仅是让你意识到出了问题，而是帮助你组织和引导你去认清自己的需求。
deeper feelings, I'll call them primary emotions, they're about not just highlighting something's wrong to you, but organizing and orienting you to what you need.
对吧？
Right?
所以情绪变得程序化了。
So emotion becomes procedural.
我需要有一种同伴情谊的感觉。
I need to have a sense of camaraderie.
我需要感受到有人理解我。
I need to feel, like, understood by someone.
我需要有一种轻松愉快的感觉。
I need I need a sense of playfulness.
我需要乐趣。
I need fun.
我需要和某人一起享受乐趣，彼此来回互动。
I need fun with somebody where we toss it back and forth.
这些是存在主义和依恋导向的需求。
Those are existential and attachment oriented needs.
对吧？
Right?
通常，向前走意味着弄清楚现在缺失了什么，一旦你识别出来，就可以某种程度上放下这段关系，然后开始有意识地寻找你所缺失的那部分东西。
Often moving on is about figuring out what's missing now, and once you're identifying it, you can kind of put it to rest, the relationship I mean, and you organize to start looking for that specific thing that you're missing.
我们收到了许多听众的留言，他们想分享自己走出分手阴影的策略。
We received a number of messages from listeners who wanted to share their strategies for getting over a breakup.
这条留言来自一位名叫黛布的听众。
This one comes from a listener named Deb.
41岁时，黛布经历了一段离婚。
At the age of 41, Deb went through a divorce.
她一度挣扎不已，觉得自己永远无法走出阴影，直到大约一年后，她决定尝试一些新的方法。
She struggled and felt like she'd never move on until about a year later, she decided to try something new.
以下是她的讲述。
Here she is.
我拿出一个黄色横线的笔记本和一支笔，在每一条线上都写下‘谢谢’，然后填上空白，说明前夫在哪些方面让我的生活变得更好。
I took out a yellow lined writing pad and pen, and on every single line, I wrote, thank you, and then I would fill in the blank for some way, shape, or form that my former husband had made my life better.
写完五页后，我把所有那些曾经与前夫共同生活、影响我过去故事、塑造现在并开启未来可能性的点点滴滴，都从脑海和心中释放了出来。
Five pages later, I had let out from my head and heart all those aspects of my former life with him that made a difference for my stories of the past, my impacts on the present, and possibilities for my future.
这封信对我而言就是这个意思。
That's what that letter meant to me.
在我新卧室的窗外，我在地上做了一个日晷，然后把那些充满真情的感恩语句揉碎，烧掉它们，并想象着产生的烟雾飘向空中，送达给我的前夫。
Outside of my new bedroom window, I made a sundial on the ground, And after crumbling up those heartfelt statements of gratitude, I burned them and imagined the resulting smoke moving through the air and to its intended recipient, my former husband.
从那一刻起，我就能讲述我的故事，而不再感到痛苦、流泪或煎熬。
From that moment on, I could tell my story without pain or tears or anguish.
这太棒了。
It was fabulous.
有大量的研究发现，感恩是生活中许多领域的强大工具，安东尼奥。
So there's abundant research that finds that gratitude is a powerful tool for many realms of our lives, Antonio.
它是否也可能帮助我们度过分手的难关？
Is it possible that it can also help us with breakups?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
我觉得这太好了。
I think it's wonderful.
这非常有创意，也很有主动性，她全身心投入其中。
It's very creative, and it's very agentic, and she runs with it.
对吧？
Right?
所以其中一部分是非常行动导向的，就是去做点什么。
So part of it is very action oriented, do something.
没有人会像黛布提到的那样，拿着一张纸反复琢磨。
Nobody ruminates with a piece of paper the way Deb was talking about.
至少通常不会。
I mean, least not usually.
所以请注意，这里的一点是，她把事情写在纸上，或者与人交谈，或者写下来。
So notice that one of the things here is she's committing to paper or to conversation with someone or to write.
这并不是只在脑子里转圈，反复思虑。
It's it's not just in your head going around, turning it around in circles.
这有一种完成某项任务的感觉。
There's a there's a sense of undertaking a task.
德布提到的另一点是仪式感，对吧？
And the other piece that Deb mentions is ceremony, right?
我的意思是，这是一种仪式，一种结束的认定，我经常对人们说，在你做完所有工作之后，而不是之前，你不能在一开始就做，但做完工作后，你仍需决定这件事已经结束了。
I mean, there's a ritual, the idea of right, and I think I'm often saying to people after you've done all the work, not before, you can't do it at the beginning, but after you've done the work, still have to decide that it's over.
有一个决策点，你会说：我要把这件事放下了，这能起到几种作用。
There's a decision point where you say, and I'm going to put this to rest, and that serves several functions.
第一，它带来一种了结感。
One, it creates a sense of closure.
注意，这个仪式并不需要他人在场。
Notice the other person doesn't have to be here for this ceremony.
它可以是私密的。
It can be private.
你可以自己做自己的事。
You do your own thing.
当然，它必须在你完成情感上的工作之后进行，但它同时也成为一种提醒，一种纪念。
It has to be done after you do the emotional work, of course, but it also becomes a reminder, a memento.
就在那一刻，那个时间与空间的节点，我放下了它，走进了我余下的人生，这正是她所描述的。
There was that time, that moment in time and space where I let it go and walked into the rest of my life, which is what she describes.
对吧？
Right?
然后是关于感恩的部分。
Then there's the piece about gratitude.
在原始的那期节目中，我们谈过一个告别的练习，你可以写下你正在告别的好事有哪些？
In the original episode, we talked about a goodbye exercise where you might write down what are the good things you're saying goodbye to?
你正在告别的坏事有哪些？
What are the bad things you're saying goodbye to?
知道吗，再见了，滚蛋吧。
Know, goodbye good riddance.
那希望和梦想呢？
And what are the hopes and dreams?
对吧？
Right?
因为现实是我们曾经拥有过一些东西，而且那些东西是有价值的。
Because the reality is we had something together and it was of value.
下一个问题是来自一位旁观者，她正看着一段分手关系的外在表现。
This next question is from a listener who is on the outside of a breakup looking in.
她的名字叫克里斯汀。
Her name is Christine.
我在想，如何帮助一位经历了艰难分手、一年甚至更久后仍陷入无尽反刍循环的朋友，他们似乎就是无法走出来。
I'm wondering how to help a friend who's been through a difficult breakup and seems to be stuck in a never ending loop of rumination after a year or more, and they just can't seem to move on.
我该如何提供帮助呢？
How can I be of help?
你觉得呢，安东尼奥？
What do you think, Antonio?
是的，这是个好问题，对吧？
Yeah, that was a good question, right?
如果你关心别人，看到他们受苦，你就想帮助他们。
If you care about people and you see them suffering, you want to help them.
这取决于他们陷入这种状态有多久了。
It depends how long they've been stuck this sort of way.
这还取决于这段关系持续了多久，对吧？
It depends how long the relationship is, right?
我认为，在某种程度上，如果一个人和伴侣共同生活，但婚姻或关系在分手一年后才结束，他们仍然被困在其中，正在努力消化。
I think in some sense, if somebody were with a life partner and then the marriage ends or the relationship ends a year after the breakup, they're still stuck with it and working through it.
我不认为这属于不健康，对吧？
I wouldn't say that's outside of healthy, right?
我的意思是，这需要时间，关系越长，所需的时间就越多，对吧？
I mean, it takes time, and the longer the relationship, the more it's going to take time, right?
你知道，这在一定程度上取决于我们所考虑的具体情境。
You know, so it kind of depends on the context of what we're considering.
但让我们假设这种情况确实持续了一段时间。
But let's imagine it is kinda getting a little it's taken a bit of a while.
也许这段关系在这个人的生命故事中并不那么重要，但显然重要到足以让他们感到心碎。
Maybe the relationship wasn't as significant in this person's life story, but obviously important enough for them to be feel broken over it.
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