创伤脚本

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。提起童话二字，人们脑海中会浮现美好的画面——美丽的公主、迷人的小矮人、可爱的动物。但在最初版本中，童话远比我们今天讲述的温馨故事要残酷得多。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Say the words fairy tale and a pleasant vision comes to mind. Beautiful princesses, charming dwarves, and adorable animals. But in their original incarnation, fairy tales were a lot gristlier than the sunny stories we tell today.

1812年首版于德国的《格林童话》收录了诸如《强盗新郎》这样的故事：一位少女来到未婚夫家中，却发现他是食人盗匪的首领。她躲藏起来，目睹强盗们杀害另一名少女并将其分食。最终她通过向当局出示受害者戴着戒指的断指揭发了暴行。在《杜松子树》中，继母杀害继子后将其炖煮，端给毫不知情的父亲食用。

Grimm's fairy tales, first published in Germany in 1812, included stories like the robber bridegroom. It told of a young woman who visits the home of the man to whom she is engaged, only to discover that he is the leader of a band of cannibalistic robbers. She hides and watches as the robbers murder another young woman, cut her up and eat her. She exposes the robbers by giving the authorities a victim severed finger which has a ring on it. In another tale called the Juniper Tree, a stepmother kills her stepson, chops him up, and serves him in a stew to his unsuspecting father.

男孩的妹妹收集尸骨埋在杜松子树下，男孩化作鸟儿重生，用石头砸死了继母。就连迪士尼版《白雪公主》的原著也更为骇人——嫉妒继女美貌的邪恶皇后多次试图杀害她，最终被迫穿着烧红的铁鞋跳舞至死。

His sister collects the boy's bones and buries them under a juniper tree. The boy is reborn as a bird who kills the stepmom by dropping a stone on her head. Even Snow White, the sweet story we know from the Disney version, was far scarier in original form. The Evil Queen, jealous of her beautiful stepdaughter Snow White, tries several times to kill the girl. After the evil queen is caught, she is forced to wear red hot iron shoes and dance until she dies.

如今这些毛骨悚然的故事集常以高度净化的形式呈现给儿童。作为家长和教师，我们总担心造成不可挽回的心理伤害。但那些曾津津乐道给孩子讲这些故事的先辈们呢？难道他们更不关心子女福祉？历史记载并未显示这些故事曾给旧时的孩童造成创伤。

Today, these collections of gruesome and ghastly tales are often presented to children in highly sanitized form. As parents and teachers, many of us are worried about causing irreparable psychic harm. But what does that say about earlier generations of caregivers who happily read these stories to their kids? Did they care less about the well-being of their offspring? Historical accounts do not suggest these stories traumatized children in the past.

事实上，这些血腥故事长达数个世纪的持久流行，恰恰说明当时人们对这类题材有着旺盛需求。究竟是什么改变了？本期我们不仅探讨儿童童话的演变，更将深入思考：人类如何自以为会应对悲剧叙事与经历，实际又是如何应对的？关于悲痛、创伤与复原力的探讨，尽在本期《隐藏的大脑》。我在交通事故频发的印度长大，

Indeed, the enduring popularity of grisly stories, sometimes over centuries, suggests there was robust appetite for such tales. So, what changed? Today, we take a deep dive not into the world of children's fairy tales, but the larger question of how we think human beings respond to accounts and experiences of tragedy, and how they actually respond. Grief, trauma, and resilience, this week on Hidden Brain. I grew up in India where traffic accidents and deaths were commonplace.

亲眼见证多位亲友死于车祸。初到美国时，我惊讶于人们如此重视交通安全——尽管当地道路安全得多。后来我意识到，正是印度交通事故的普遍性使人变得麻木。日常发生的事会逐渐淡出关注，而罕见的空难总能引发强烈反响。

I personally know multiple friends and family members who died in traffic crashes. When I first came to The United States, I was surprised that people talked a lot more about traffic safety even though the roads were much safer. In time, I came to realize that the very ubiquity of traffic fatalities in India made people more blase. Things that happen every day fade into the background. Airplane crashes, which are rare, draw intense attention.

文化认知同样随时间变迁。某个时代令人震惊的事物，在另一时代会变得司空见惯；而曾经习以为常的现象，日后可能令人骇然。哥伦比亚大学心理学家乔治·博南诺研究发现，当代诸多文化对苦难、悲痛与悲剧的认知已与往昔大相径庭。乔治·博南诺，欢迎来到《隐藏的大脑》。

The same thing happens to cultures over time. Things that were surprising in one day and age become commonplace in another. And things that are seen as commonplace in one day and age can come to be seen as shocking. At Columbia University, psychologist George Bonanno has studied how many cultures today have come to think about suffering and grief and tragedy very differently than people did in the past. George Bonanno, welcome to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢，尚卡尔。很荣幸能与你对话。

Thank you so much, Shankar. I'm very happy to be with you to talk with you.

乔治，能否从你的个人经历开始？你在芝加哥长大，与父亲的关系如何？

George, I'm wondering if I could start with a personal story. You grew up in Chicago. How would you describe your relationship with your dad?

这是段复杂而充满冲突的关系。我成长的社区聚居着西西里移民，环境严酷。父亲时常殴打我们，但比肉体伤害更可怕的是他暴怒时的模样——他会陷入癫狂，那时他简直是个令人胆寒的存在。

I would say it was a very complicated and fraught relationship. The neighborhood I grew up in was a Sicilian neighborhood, Sicilian immigrants, and it was a was a tough neighborhood. My father would beat us at times. The beatings were not as bad as the anger that he exhibited. He would go into these rages, and he was a very scary human being then.

我理解他本人一生中承担了很多。在某种程度上，你也看到了这一点。也许在兄弟姐妹中，只有你真正共情了他的处境。乔治，你能描述一下那是什么感觉吗？

I understand that he himself was someone who took on a lot as he went through his life. And in some ways, you saw that. And perhaps alone among your siblings, you actually empathized with what he was going through. Can you describe what that was like, George?

是的。我父亲工作非常非常努力，我觉得他逐渐变得抑郁。他还患有严重的健康问题，经历过几次心脏病发作，糖尿病也开始找上门来。

Yeah. My father worked very, very hard and I think was becoming depressed. He'd also had serious health problems. He'd had several heart attacks. He's becoming diabetic.

所以他的生命仿佛正从指缝间流逝。有时我会发现他独自躺在黑暗的床上，我会进去和他交谈。而他基本上会对我说，别试图和我说话。我觉得他放弃了想做的事，或者说放弃了人生还有其他可能性的念头。这一切在我高中毕业时达到了顶点。

So his life was kind of slipping away from him. And I would catch him at times lying in the dark in bed, and I would go in and talk with him. And he would say to me basically, you know, don't don't try to talk with me. And so I think there was a kind of a sense that he gave up what he wanted to do or he gave up the sense of he could have done other things in life. So it it this all came to a to a head when I finished high school.

我勉强高中毕业后就离开了家。父亲当时说了句让我刻骨铭心的话：'如果你现在离开，就别爬着回来。'这句话从此深深刻在我脑海里。

I barely finished high school, and then I left home. And my father had said quite infamous infamously in my mind, if you leave now, don't come crawling back. And that, you know, was emblazoned on my mind after that.

所以你确实在17岁时离开了家。你游历甚广，包括去其他国家，有时露宿街头。23岁那年你在科罗拉多时，半夜接到一个电话。我听说你最初决定不接那个电话？

So you did end up leaving at the age of 17. You traveled widely, including to other countries. Sometimes you slept outside. When you were 23, you found yourself in Colorado, and you got a call in the middle of the night. I understand that initially you decided to ignore the ringing phone?

电话反复响起，当时我和一位我很在意的女士在一起，所以没有接听。在铃声多次重复后，我意识到可能有要事。起身接起电话，是我哥哥通知我父亲去世的消息。

Well, the the phone rang repeatedly, and I was with somebody. I was with a woman that I was very interested in, and I didn't answer the phone. After several repeats of this ringing, I decided there was something very much important. Got up, answered the phone, and it was my older brother telling me that my father had died.

乔治，在随后的几个小时和几天里，你脑海中闪过了什么念头？嗯，我们

What went through your mind in the hours and days that followed, George? Well, we

其实正开始走向某种和解。虽然我觉得这不太可能实现，但我们确实在某种程度上试图重新理解彼此。当时我并不确定，这是我第一次经历这种死亡，不知道会有什么感受。而最终我体验到的本质上是寂静。

were beginning actually to move towards some sort of reconciliation. I don't think that was likely to happen, but we were kind of somehow trying to find each other a little bit. And I was not sure at that point. I had not experienced this kind of death before, and I was wondering what would I experience. And what I experienced was essentially silence.

那时正值冬季，万物几乎都被冰雪覆盖。我出门走了很久，一切都缓慢、寂静而平和。这种寂静虽然出乎意料，却仿佛是个自然的过程。

It was in in in the wintertime, everything was more or less frozen and covered with snow. And I walked out, went for a long walk, and everything was slow and silent and peaceful. The silence somehow seemed, it wasn't what I expected, but it seemed like seemed like a natural process.

这是乔治第一次真正面对死亡。他以为自己会流泪，却没有。人们在他周围小心翼翼，仿佛担心说错话就会让他崩溃。这也让他感到陌生。乔治心怀感激，因为父亲的痛苦终于结束了。

It was George's first real experience dealing with death. He expected he would have tears, but none appeared. People moved hesitantly around him as if they were worried he would splinter into tiny shards if they said the wrong thing. This too felt strange. George felt grateful that his father's pain was over.

他感到如释重负。后来，他成为了一名研究人们如何应对损失与挫折的研究员。他反复看到不按常规剧本行事的人的例子，其中一位被乔治称为朱莉娅的大学生就是如此。

He felt relief. In time, he became a researcher who studied how people respond to losses and setbacks. Over and over, he saw examples of people who did not follow the conventional script. One was a college student whom George calls Julia.

朱莉娅从大学回家，正在父母家中与母亲准备晚餐时，电话突然响起，她听见母亲发出痛苦的哭喊。消息传来，父亲下班骑车回家途中遭遇车祸，被送进了重症监护室。当母女赶到医院时，父亲刚刚离世。朱莉娅回忆当时完全懵了，只记得自己痛哭不止，其余记忆都模糊不清。

Julia was home from college, and she was at her her family's home. She was preparing dinner with her mother, and the phone rang, and she heard, her mother cry out in anguish. And the news was that the father had been bicycling home from work and was hit by a car, and he was in the ICU, the intensive care unit. Julia and her mother drove to the hospital and just as they arrived, he died. Julia reports that she was absolutely stunned and she remembers crying a lot, but everything else is kind of a blur.

她陷入极度沮丧的状态，出现失眠等症状。

She fell into this state where she was very upset, was having difficulty sleeping, etcetera.

那么在经历丧父的初期冲击后，朱莉娅返校埋头学业。当朋友问及是否想谈谈父亲去世时，她如何回应？

So after the initial shock of her father's death, Julia went back to school, plunged into her schoolwork. When friends asked her if she wanted to talk about her father's death, how did she respond?

多数时候她不愿谈论父亲离世。她只想像往常那样与朋友相处，实在不愿反复回想此事。返校前已承受过痛苦，现在她显然只想专注学业。后来她因获得报社实习机会兴奋归家，对新生活充满期待。

For the most part, she did not want to talk about her father's death. She wanted to simply be with her friends as friends, as companions, and she really didn't wanna think about it to dwell on it. She'd already suffered some before she went back to school, and I think now she was very clearly focused on simply doing what she was doing there, engaging in that work and not dwelling on it. She, I think, did well, and then she came home quite excited because she got an internship at a newspaper. She was excited to be doing that.

我了解到朱莉娅母亲对其哀悼方式有明确期待。乔治，她母亲作何反应？

I understand that Julia's mother had some firm ideas about how Julia ought to be responding to her father's death. How did her mother respond, George?

母亲非常担忧朱莉娅似乎遗忘了父亲——她的生活完全恢复正常。母亲认为她在压抑悲伤（朱莉娅原话），并建议她接受哀伤辅导以直面情绪。

Well, her mother was quite worried that Julia seemed to have forgotten her father. She was acting essentially as if life had returned to normal. And her mother worried that she had denied her grief. This was the phrase that Julia used that she denied her grief and suggested that she, Julia, see a grief counselor to get at the bottom of it.

她去了吗？

And did she?

去了。有趣的是咨询师不断追问她与父亲的关系，朱莉娅表示'我不傻，看得出你们想引导什么'。虽不情愿仍配合了一段时间。后来保险涵盖的咨询次数用尽，自然终止了疗程，母亲也同意她不再继续。

She did and it was interesting because the counselor asked her a lot of questions about her relationship with her father and Julia said something to the effect of I'm not stupid I could see what he was aiming at. She was not happy about this, but she played along with it for a period. And then I think what happened was if I remember correctly the, the the the number of sessions that would be covered perhaps by insurance had run out and it was a sort of natural ending point and her mother agreed. She said I you know I don't want to do this anymore and her mother agreed that she could stop.

令人震惊的是乔治，朱莉娅母亲要求治疗并非因女儿过度悲伤，反而是觉得她哀悼得不够。

I mean it's striking George that Julia's mother felt she had to go to therapy not because Julia's grief was destabilizing her, but because she wasn't in her mother's eyes experiencing enough grief.

是的。人们普遍认为悲伤是我们必须经历的事情，而且它是痛苦的。这种痛苦是必然的。这就是人们的假设。

Yes. It's a very common assumption that grief is something we need to do and that it's painful. It has to be painful. That's the assumption.

你遇到的另一个人是你称为杰德的年轻人。他在纽约市作为一名有抱负的音乐家工作时，某晚遭遇了一场可怕的事故。乔治，他发生了什么？

Another person you encountered was a young man you called Jed. He had been working in New York City as an aspiring musician when he suffered a terrible accident one night. What happened to him, George?

杰德在西格林威治村的一家高档餐厅工作。那是12月21日凌晨1:30左右。天气非常冷，大约华氏20度，他走到街角。他记得看到步行信号灯在结冰的路面上闪烁。于是他走进十字路口，一辆垃圾车，一辆环卫车非法快速右转，刮倒了他并把他拖到车下。

Jed was working at an upscale restaurant in the West Greenwich Village. It was about 01:30 in the morning on December 21. It was very cold, about 20 degrees Fahrenheit, and he walked to the corner. He remembers seeing the walk signal shimmering off the frozen pavement. So he walked into the intersection, and a garbage truck, a sanitation truck made an illegal right turn very fast and clipped him and pulled him under the truck.

车碾过他的左腿和臀部，将其压成了一片血肉模糊。那是一场可怕的事故。

It ran over his left leg and hip and just crushed it to a massive blood and bone. It was a horrific accident.

我猜他一定被立即送往医院了。

I'm assuming he must have been rushed to the hospital immediately.

不幸的是，并没有立即。急救人员来了。他清楚地记得这一切，因为他全程都清醒着。他疯狂地尖叫。警察到了。

Not immediately, unfortunately. So the emergency responders came. He recalls this all vividly because he was awake for the whole thing. He was screaming wildly. The police arrived.

消防员也到了。他记得救护车被耽搁了。我想他认为是因为凌晨1:30的交通堵塞。在纽约这是可能的。他记得听到急救人员大喊‘给巴士加速’，这是急救人员的行话，意思是让救护车快点来。后来他们告诉他，如果不是天气这么冷，他可能已经因失血过多而死亡，因为他流血非常严重，但寒冷的天气减缓了血流速度。最终救护车来了，把他送到了医院。

The firefighters arrived. He remembers that the ambulance was delayed. I believe he thought it was delayed in traffic at 01:30 in the morning. That's possible in New York. He remembers hearing the the first responders yelling put a rush on the bus which is first responders speak for get the ambulance here and they told him afterwards that if it wasn't so cold he probably would have bled out and died because he was bleeding so profusely but the cold weather slowed the flow of blood and then eventually the ambulance came and they got him to the hospital.

在那里发生了什么？

What happened there?

他们让他进入昏迷状态，并让他处于药物诱导的昏迷中六周。如果我没记错的话，他经历了20次手术，还遭遇了几次感染。他们基本上重建了他的身体，使其在失去这么多部分后仍能运作。他大约四分之一的身体在这次事故中失去了。他最终失去了那条腿吗？他失去了整条腿和部分臀部。

They put him into a coma and kept him into a medically induced coma for six weeks. I believe he had 20 surgeries if I'm remembering the number correctly and he'd also experienced a number of infections and they kind of rebuilt his body to function without so much of it. About a quarter of his body was was lost in this this accident. Did he end up losing the leg? He lost the entire leg and part of his hip.

所以，你知道，他是个英俊的男人。当你在街上看到他时，人们有时会多看两眼，因为他失去了那么多。一开始，似乎很难相信一个人可以失去这么多。是的，他现在用不同的设备，比如拐杖之类的，行动相当自如。但是，是的，他失去了很多。

So when, you know, he's an he's a handsome man. And when you see him on the street, people sometimes do double takes because so much of him is gone. You know, at first, it seems not possible that so much of a person could be gone. And, yeah, so he gets around quite well on on on different kinds of equipment, crutches and such. But, yeah, a lot of him is gone.

那么请描述一下这起可怕事故发生后数日乃至数周内的情况，以及他在医院的康复过程。我的意思是，他虽然活了下来，但显然在某些方面受到了严重伤害。是的。他的心理和精神状态发生了什么变化？

So describe for me what happened in the days and weeks that followed this horrific accident and his recovery in the hospital. I mean, he comes out of this, but he's clearly mangled in some ways. Yeah. What happens to him mentally, psychically?

起初，他的家人非常担心他醒来发现失去这么多身体部位时会作何反应。你知道，他醒来时身上插满管子，还缺失了大块躯体。但他说自己早已知道。不知是通过睡眠还是其他方式——具体机制尚不清楚——这个事实已经进入了他的意识。随后他开始对事故全过程产生极其鲜活的记忆，因为正如我提到的，他在事故中全程保持清醒。

Well, his his family was first very worried at how he would react when he woke up and found so much of him was gone. You know, he woke up with tubes coming out of him and and a chunk of his body missing. But he said that he already knew. It somehow gotten into his consciousness through sleep or how it's not clear how, but he already knew. But then he began to have these just vividly intense memories of the entire accident because, as I mentioned, he was fully conscious for this accident.

连续好几天他都在不断闪回这些记忆。然后出乎他意料——我想可能也出乎所有人意料——这些记忆大约一周后基本就停止了。那些侵入性的记忆和强烈的事故重放突然就消失了。这让他感到困惑。

So he was replaying all of these memories for several days. And then to his surprise, and I think to maybe everybody's surprise, it more or less just stopped. It took about a week, and then the all of these intrusive memories and intense replaying of the accident simply just stopped. And he was confused by that.

某种程度上，他的困惑与朱莉娅母亲的担忧如出一辙。换句话说，杰德恢复得相对不错，但他自己却在质疑为何没有更糟？

In some ways, his confusion seems to reflect the same concerns that Julia's mother had. In other words, Jed was doing relatively well, but he found himself asking why he was not doing worse?

没错。他用原话自问：为什么我恢复得不错？他说：这才是我真正的问题——为什么我恢复得不错？

Yes. He was wondering his exact words. Why was I doing okay? And he said, This is really my question. Why was I doing okay?

事故前他就修过心理学课程，后来他重返校园完成硕士学位，最终取得临床心理学博士学位。实际上他后来与我共事，我们因此相识，现在他已是大学临床心理学教授。

He'd already taken psychology classes before this accident but he went back and finished his master's degree and then he ended up getting a PhD in clinical psychology. Actually he came to work with me which is how I know him and he's now a professor of clinical psychology in university.

乔治对自己面对父亲死亡的反应感到惊讶。他预期会痛哭，却只感到深沉的静默。朱莉娅的母亲担心自己从丧父之痛中走得太快，哀悼得不够充分。而杰德则惊讶于自己遭受的创伤比预期轻得多。这三个人只是大多数人面对悲痛、灾难和悲剧时的异常个案吗？

George was surprised by his own reaction to his father's death. He expected tears, but felt only a deep silence. Julia's mother was worried she moved on too quickly from the loss of her father and that she was not grieving properly. And Jed was surprised he was less traumatized than he ought to have been. Are these three people merely aberrations from the way most people respond to grief, disaster and tragedy?

稍后回来时，乔治将开始系统研究人们遭遇重大挫折后的反应。答案令他吃惊，或许也会让你惊讶。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, George begins to systematically study what happens to people after they suffer major setbacks. The answer surprised him. It may surprise you too. You are listening to Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。许多人都知道人们在遭受重大损失或个人挫折后应该有何表现。失去挚友、长期身处战区、经历自然灾害——这些都挑战人类心理极限，将我们推向创伤边缘。在YouTube或TikTok上稍作停留，你会看到大量关于创伤如何影响人类心理的论述。

This is Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta. Many of us know how people are supposed to behave after suffering a major loss or personal setback. The loss of a beloved friend, spending extended time in a war zone, going through a natural disaster All these stretch the limits of the human mind and bend us toward trauma. Spend a moment on YouTube or TikTok and you will see many accounts of how trauma is supposed to affect the human mind.

童年创伤在成年期显现的三种方式。你注意到《魔法满屋》里这个关于创伤的深刻见解了吗？那些...

Three ways that childhood trauma shows up in adulthood. Did you catch this profound insight into trauma from Encanta? People with

有创伤史的人存在一种称为启动瘫痪的现象。他们缺乏自主行动力。

a history of trauma have something called a paralysis of initiation. They are not self starters.

你会发现每个人的个性本质上都是创伤反应。那个野心勃勃、干劲十足的人——创伤反应。那个对谁都讨好的老好人——创伤反应。你被吸引的那些人类型——创伤反应。

You realize that everybody's personality is literally just a trauma response. That highly ambitious motivated person, trauma response. That people pleaser who's so nice to everybody, trauma response. The types of people you're attracted to, trauma response.

哥伦比亚大学的乔治·博南诺研究人们如何应对挫折与灾难。在纽约9·11恐怖袭击后出现了一个标志性时刻。专家们当时对这场恐怖袭击的后续影响非常笃定。

At Columbia University, George Bonanno studies how people respond to setbacks and disaster. One telling moment came after the nineeleven terrorist attacks in New York. Experts were very sure about what would happen in the aftermath of the horrific attacks.

当时普遍共识是这将引发空前规模的心理健康危机。人们基本都在争论现有资源根本无法应对即将爆发的心理问题。著名的联邦应急管理局为此拨款约1.3亿美元——这在当时比如今值钱得多——主要用于为纽约市民提供免费心理治疗。整个社会都笼罩在这种观念下：这场灾难将彻底压垮民众，我们将变成一座充满创伤者的城市。

The general consensus really was that this was going to be a mental health crisis of unprecedented proportions. People were basically arguing that there were simply not enough resources for the kind of mental health problems that were coming. And famously, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, allocated, I believe, about $130,000,000 which at the time was a lot more than it is now, for emergency funds in New York mostly to provide free therapy for New Yorkers. So there was this, you know, overarching belief that this is going to completely overwhelm the population. We're going to be basically a city of traumatized people.

早期研究似乎确实证实了普遍存在的心理困扰。即便远在华盛顿特区——我当时是《华盛顿邮报》记者——仍清晰记得9·11后几周的某个夜晚坐在床沿，怀疑自己是否还能好起来。这种影响真实存在，不仅波及纽约，更蔓延至全国。

And early research did seem to confirm that there was widespread distress. Even, you know, sitting in Washington DC, I was a reporter at The Washington Post at the time, I still remember sitting on the edge of my bed one evening, a couple of weeks after 09:11, and I remember wondering if I would ever feel better. So the the effects of this were real, and they affected a lot of people, not just in New York, but around the country.

是的。实际上某种程度上对全国其他地区影响更大，因为缺乏历史先例可循。我至今清晰记得在纽约做飞机坠毁的噩梦，巨大的不确定性让人惶惶不安。

Yes. And, actually, I think it affected people around the country in some ways even more because there were no cues that this had had happened in the past. I vividly remember, you know, I was having I was having nightmares about planes crashing in where I lived in New York City. It was a lot of uncertainty, and uncertainty makes people uneasy.

《新英格兰医学杂志》报告显示曼哈顿居民中有7.5%符合创伤后应激障碍(PTSD)诊断标准，下城区靠近世贸中心区域比例升至20%，直接受影响人群甚至达到30%。这些数字远超袭击发生后的预期值。

There were reports in the New England Journal of Medicine that seven point five percent of Manhattan residents met criteria for post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, and that proportion rose to twenty percent for those in Lower Manhattan who are close to the World Trade Center and maybe thirty percent for people directly affected by the attacks. So the numbers were incredibly high in terms of the the expectations and the predictions right after the attacks took place.

虽然当时我不会称之为空前规模的流行病——因为这些数字与其他重大压力事件相差不大——但确实非常高，非常惊人。

So it initially, it looked like I wouldn't say it looked like an unprecedented epidemic even at that point, though, because those numbers are not that different from made other kinds of major stressors. But they were high. Yes. They were very high.

研究人员持续追踪9·11后数月至数年间纽约民众状况。乔治，他们有何发现？

So researchers continue to survey New Yorkers in the months and years following nine eleven. What did they find, George?

数字急剧下降。六个月后基本恢复正常水平，全市整体数据已相当低。

Well, the numbers dropped precipitously. And by six months, they were more or less back to normal. They were quite low by six months for the for the city on the whole.

研究人员对此如何回应？在某些方面，实际情况与人们之前的预测相矛盾。

How did researchers respond to this? In some ways, what happened was at odds with the predictions that people had made.

是的。我认为对此存在一定程度的否认。许多心理健康专业人士和研究者并未过多关注这一点。由于涉及人数众多，心理创伤案例并不少见，所以他们主要聚焦于此。

Yeah. I would say there's a little bit of denial about this. There were a lot of mental health professionals and researchers who simply didn't focus on that so much. There was no shortage of psychological casualties because of the number of people involved. So they're focusing on that.

但部分心理健康研究者提出，这本质上表明我们之前的预后判断有误——人们确实感到痛苦，但对如此重大事件的痛苦反应实属正常预期。特别是当破坏持续影响城市基础设施，需要重新规划诸多事务时，这种阶段性痛苦实际上相当普遍，且会逐渐消散。我们错误地将这种强烈情绪反应等同于精神病理症状。

But some mental health researchers argued that basically this indicated that we were wrong about our prognoses that this was people were upset but being upset at something of that magnitude is actually what you would expect And so being upset for a while, especially when it the damage, you know, reverberated through the city for some time because it damaged infrastructure, it required rethinking many things, that was actually quite normative and that was what that was what dissipated. So we mistook that kind of emotional intense reaction as psychopathology.

PTSD研究专家帕特里夏·雷西克有句名言：强烈情绪不等于精神病理，这与你刚才阐述的观点不谋而合。

The PTSD researcher Patricia Resik famously said strong emotions do not equal psychopathology, which is the same idea that you're talking about just now.

没错。是的。她确实...我认为她对此强调得非常有力。是的。

Yes. Yes. Yes. She was she was actually, I think this had said that very strongly. Yes.

九一一事件二十年后，系统再次遭受类似冲击——这次是COVID疫情。这次危机不仅影响整个国家，更波及全球。疫情导致的疾病死亡、学校停课和工作场所关闭带来的混乱，预计将对民众心理健康产生重大影响。这次的预测是什么？这些预测应验了吗，博纳？

So a similar shock to the system came twenty years after nine eleven, this time in the form of the COVID pandemic, and this, of course, affected not just the entire country but the entire world. And the illness and death caused by the pandemic as well as the disruption caused by schools and workplaces shutting down were expected to have significant effects on people's mental health. What were the predictions this time, and were those predictions, Borna?

再次出现了关于心理健康问题将压垮系统的预测。这被认为将是又一个规模空前的危机，现有心理健康资源将无力应对。许多心理健康专家认为必须采取措施应对这场迫在眉睫的心理健康灾难。

Again, there was a prognosis of of overwhelming mental health problems that overwhelm the system. This was going to again be a problem of such magnitude that the mental health resources we currently had would not be able to handle it. And many mental health experts were assuming we need to do something to take care of this looming disaster, this looming mental health disaster.

最终结果如何？

And what happened eventually?

最终结果表明，疫情造成的心理影响远低于预期。虽然进行了大量研究——我无法悉数列举——但最典型的例子是自杀率。人们预计疫情期间自杀率会飙升，但全球范围的自杀率实际保持稳定甚至下降。在我的追踪研究中，发现人们的心理韧性与健康水平始终如一。

What happened eventually was that the pandemic did not have nearly the psychological impact that people thought it would have. There were, a lot of studies done, and, I don't know if I can call to mind all of these different kinds of studies, but one of the best examples is suicide. People thought suicides would would would skyrocket during the pandemic. And in fact, suicides stayed the same or declined globally. In my own research, you know, we tracked people over time, and we found that people were as resilient and as healthy as they always had been.

这一现象在全球范围内都得到了印证。

And this has been seen also all over the world.

乔治，许多人认为我们在应对困难或创伤性经历时会经历一系列阶段。这一观点由伊丽莎白·库伯勒-罗斯普及，她提出我们会依次经历否认、愤怒、讨价还价、抑郁，最终达到接受。请谈谈这个理论为何广受认可，以及科学界是否有大量证据支持它。

George, many people believe that we respond to difficult or traumatic experiences by going through a series of stages. This idea was popularized by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who said we go through denial, followed by anger, followed by bargaining, followed by depression, and finally acceptance. Talk about how this theory has gained widespread traction and whether there's much evidence supporting it in scientific circles.

最初，库伯勒-罗斯提出这个理论是为了解释人们如何面对自身死亡。但由于显而易见的原因，这方面几乎没有数据或研究——濒死之人通常不愿参与研究。后来这个理论被强行套用到丧亲之痛上，而这并非她的本意，是其他理论家推动的，结果变得非常流行。

Well, initially, the theory, Kubler Ross had proposed the theory to account for how people face their own death. And there's hardly any data on that, any research on that for obvious reasons. People are not interested in participating in research as they face their own death. But then it got foisted onto how people deal with the loss of a loved one and she didn't actually do that. That was really other people that did that, other, theorists, and it became very popular.

我认为其流行原因在于它提供了某种路线图。像丧亲这种充满存在性威胁的事情发生时——我们平时很少思考生死问题，突然失去某人时会不知所措——这个理论给出了明确答案。可惜它过于整齐划一，与事实不符，研究从未支持过这种模型。

I think the reason that it became popular because it's a sort of a road map. You know, something like grief has got lots of existential threat involved in it. We, you know, we don't think about death very much and life and death, and suddenly somebody's we've lost somebody. We don't know where they are, what that means, and this theory provided very clear answers. Unfortunately, it's far too neat and tidy to actually be true, and the research has never supported it.

根本没有证据表明人们实际经历这些阶段，反而存在大量相悖的研究发现。

There's not been really been any evidence that that it's actually what people go through. And a lot of research that contradicts it.

我理解该理论的核心原则之一是必须按顺序经历每个阶段，如果试图跳过某个阶段，就会承受更长时间的痛苦。从某种角度看，这个理论出奇地具有规定性——它声称必须完成第一阶段才能进入第二阶段，第三阶段必须发生在第四阶段之前。但科学界关于丧失与哀伤的研究证据并不支持这点。

I understand that one of the tenets of the theory is that you have to go through each stage in order to get to the next stage. So if you try and skip a stage, you'll end up suffering for a longer period of time. So in some ways, the theory is surprisingly prescriptive, if you will. It says that you have to go through stage one before you get to stage two or stage three comes before stage four. And, again, this doesn't quite match the scientific evidence on loss and bereavement.

对吧？

Right?

完全不符合证据。许多人根本不会经历这些阶段，个体应对丧亲的方式存在巨大差异。这种精确的、近乎完美的阶段序列根本无法涵盖实际情况。尽管作为路线图可能给部分人带来安慰，但它也造成很多伤害——当有人不符合这些阶段时，旁人就会指责他们有问题。

It does not match the evidence at all. You know, many people don't go through any of these experiences. There's a lot of idiosyncrasies to how people cope, how they react to things like the death of a loved one. And this precision, this sort of sequential perfection in a sense doesn't really accommodate it. And it's ended up, I think, for all the comfort it might give some people at being a kind of a road map, it also causes a lot of harm because when people don't experience those stages, other people then argue that perhaps they are there's something wrong with them.

他们会被告知'没有正确哀悼'，如果不按部就班经历这些阶段，就会承受更多痛苦。

They're not doing the grief properly, and they're going to suffer more if they if they don't straighten up and do the, you know, do the stages in sequence.

某种程度上这也符合你们的亲身经历。你在父亲去世后陷入深沉静默，这与哀伤阶段论完全不符；朱莉娅的母亲因她'哀伤不足'而焦虑；杰德惊讶于自己面对变故时竟没有创伤反应。你们本质上都在质疑：既然存在这套规定的应对模式——

And in some ways, this matches, you know, your own experience. You you experienced this deep silence after your dad passed away, which is not really, you know, reflected in the stages of grief. Julia's mom was really upset that she was not grieving enough. Jed was surprised that he was not reacting with with trauma to what had happened to him. And in in some ways, all of you were basically saying, here's the model of how we're supposed to respond to something terrible.

那不符合模式的我又算怎么回事呢？

And what's wrong with me that I'm not fitting this model?

是的，完全正确。我自己的经历中记得，父亲去世后，我回到当时居住的科罗拉多州，立刻重返工作岗位。同事们不断告诉我，其实不必急着工作，没关系的。

Yes. Absolutely. I actually recall in my own experience that after my father died, I returned to Colorado where I was living and went back to work right away. And the people at work kept telling me, you know, you don't have to work. It's okay.

你可以休息一段时间。我想他们是担心我——你知道——在不恰当的时机回来工作，而这其实正是我想要的。我想...这很合理，因为当人们重返工作岗位，回到对他们有意义的事情上时，他们是在向自己证明，生活中仍扮演着角色，仍保有未被剥夺的身份认同。

You can take some time off. And I think they were worried that I was, you know, inappropriately coming back to work when it's really all I wanted to do. I wanted to you know, and it it it makes sense because when people come back to work, come back to something that's rewarding to them, they're telling themselves and showing themselves they they still have a role in life. They still have an identity that that's not

描述人们应对逆境与丧失的几种典型轨迹中，有一种模式正是你所说的'慢性哀伤'。乔治，这具体指什么？

trajectories that characterize how people respond to adversity and loss. One of these patterns is in fact marked by what you call chronic grief. What is this, George?

简而言之，慢性哀伤就是无法走出丧失之痛。我们通过明确指标来衡量：持续表现出大量哀伤相关症状，但难以正常生活、思考、集中注意力或亲近他人，始终无法跨越这个阶段。这种痛苦可能持续数月甚至数年。

Chronic grief is simply put the inability to get over loss. It's we measure it in very clear ways, know, having a lot of the kind of symptoms we associate with grieving, but struggling to function, struggling to think, to concentrate, to be close to other people, and it just simply can't get past that. So they're suffering and suffering for months and often years.

乔治，经历这种慢性哀伤的人比例有多高？

How many people experience this kind of chronic grief, George?

最乐观估计，最多约10%，通常更少。

Best estimates, I would say, are, at the most, about ten percent and usually less.

你们发现的第二种轨迹称为'复原模式'，这具体指什么？

A second trajectory that you've identified is what you call the recovery pattern. What is the recovery pattern?

复原模式非常有趣。这种模式初期伴随着巨大困难、强烈症状和痛苦，随后在一两年内逐渐减轻，最终回归到事发前的基准状态。虽然需要时间，但他们在持续好转。

The recovery pattern is very interesting. It is it's a pattern that begins with a lot of difficulty, struggle difficulty, high levels of symptoms and distress. And then gradually over the course of a year or two, the symptoms and the distress diminish and the person moves back toward their baseline where they were before. It takes time, but they're steadily getting better.

你们观察到的第三种模式特点是症状延迟出现，这具体是什么意思？

A third pattern that you've noticed is characterized by a delayed onset of symptoms. What what do you mean by this?

首先，哀伤反应中我们并未真正观察到延迟症状。所谓'延迟性哀伤'缺乏实证支持。这种情况多见于创伤性事件，但典型的延迟性PTSD观点——即人们初期表现正常（可能被视为否认阶段），而后突然毫无征兆地爆发PTSD——并不符合现有研究。

Well, delayed symptoms, first of all, we don't really see that with grief. There is really no evidence for something called delayed grief. We do see this when there's a trauma, potentially traumatic event, but we don't see the classic idea of delayed PTSD. Classically, it was a thought that people would be functioning just fine, and and maybe this would be connected to the idea that perhaps they're in denial. And then out of nowhere, they would suddenly develop PTSD.

关于悲伤也有同样的说法。人们并不像朱莉娅那样表现出悲伤。她母亲可能以为她会彻底崩溃，陷入深深的悲痛中，仿佛悲伤像实体一样寄居在她体内。

And that the same thing was said for grief as well. That people aren't grieving like Julia perhaps. Her mother might have thought she's going to have a full blown grief reaction. She's gonna take up on her. It's like dwelling inside her as if it's a thing.

悲伤寄居在她体内，会突然爆发吞噬她，让她痛不欲生。但心智和身体并非如此运作——悲伤和情绪并非以实体的形式蛰伏在我们体内。当我们观察这些模式时，它们远没有那么戏剧化。以延迟性创伤后应激障碍为例，人们确实在挣扎，状态不佳，但勉强维持着生活，然后情况慢慢恶化。

It's dwelling inside her and is going to come out and grab her and then she's going to really be suffering. But the but the mind and the body don't work that way. Their their grief and emotions are not dwelling inside us as things. And when we have seen those patterns, they're they're not quite as dramatic as that. We see with delayed PTSD, for example, people are struggling, not doing very well, but they're barely getting by, and they get a little bit worse.

他们的痛苦程度和症状逐渐加剧，最终跨过某个界限，达到临床意义上的真正痛苦。但其实他们自始至终都在艰难应对——这就是我们观察到的模式。

Their their their level of distress, their symptoms increase slowly, and they cross a line to where they're now sort of officially really suffering. But they've actually been struggling all along. That's the pattern we see.

你说最令人惊讶的模式也是人们应对挫折、悲剧和悲伤时最常见的模式。乔治，这个模式究竟是什么？

You say that the most surprising pattern is also the most common pattern in how people respond to setbacks and tragedy and grief. What is this is this pattern, George?

我们称这种模式为复原轨迹。很有意思的是，在我职业生涯初期，学界普遍认为极少有人会呈现这种模式——可能挣扎一两周或稍久些，生活有些动荡，心神不宁，之后阴霾逐渐消散，基本恢复正常功能。我们称之为健康功能的稳定轨迹。

Well, this pattern we call the resilience trajectory. Initially, I began my career, it's very interesting. It was assumed that very few people would show this kind of pattern of they might struggle for a week or two, maybe a little bit longer, have some upheaval in their life, they're kind of preoccupied. And then that kind of dissipates and they're more or less functioning normally. We call this a stable trajectory of healthy functioning.

我刚开始工作时，学界认为几乎没人会展现这种模式，若有人展现反而会被认为不正常——这就是所谓的否认理论。而当我们真正开始观察时（这也是本研究唯一新颖之处），我们通过测量各种可能的反应来统计呈现这些反应的人数，结果发现大多数人都展现出这种模式。

And when I first began my career, it was assumed that hardly anybody would show that pattern. And if they did show that pattern, there was something wrong with them. That was the denial idea. When we began to actually look is what I did in my research is which was the only only novel thing about this research was that I just we just looked and measured the range of possible responses to see how many people were showing these responses. When we actually did that, we found that the majority, it's almost always the majority that's showing that pattern.

多数人会经历短期痛苦和动荡，之后便能恢复正常生活。并非他们不在乎，也并非他们对事件无动于衷，而是他们选择了继续前行。

Most people experience short term distress, upheaval, and then they continue to function normally after that. It's not that they don't care. It's not that they're not saddened or upset by by the event, but they move on with their lives.

这些不同模式会出现在所有类型的挫折中吗？乔治，比如离婚、身体伤残、伤病折磨、痛失所爱——对各种不同类型的挫折，我们都会看到这些不同的反应模式吗？

Do we see these different patterns in all manner of setbacks? People getting divorced, people suffering physical losses, people with injuries or ailments, people losing a loved one. Do we see these different patterns of response for all manner of different setbacks, George?

当然。我的团队已进行大量相关研究，其他团队也在跟进。目前约100项研究证实，从最严重的创伤性事件（如重大枪击案、脊髓损伤）到关系破裂、离婚等，再到财务危机、失业等问题中都观察到了这些模式。

Yes. Absolutely. We've now done this My team has done a lot of this, other research teams are also doing this. We've seen these patterns in now about a 100 different studies actually for everything from the worst kinds of events like, you know, traumatic injury, mass shooting, spinal cord injury to things that are, you know, like loss and relationship divorce. We've seen it for financial problems, losing a job, etcetera.

任何足以打乱生活节奏的重大事件中，我们都能看到这些相同的反应模式。

So it's a range of anything that's sort of a serious event that somebody's gonna go through that's going to upheave them, cause upheaval in their life for a while. We'll see these same patterns.

我想花点时间谈谈，为何公众对丧失与哀伤的普遍认知会与科学数据揭示的真相相悖。乔治，当你向人们分享关于心理韧性的研究发现时，他们通常作何反应？

I want to spend a few moments talking about why the popular understanding of loss and grief has come to be at odds with what the scientific data is showing. How do people respond when you share your findings about resilience with them, George?

说来话长，尚卡尔。我从事这项研究已有约三十五年。最初确实困难重重，当我们在科学期刊发表这些发现时，它们几乎无人问津。那时我还年轻，据说长着张特别显嫩的脸。

Well, I've been doing this for a long time, Shankar. I've been doing this for about thirty five years now. So initially, it was difficult. We began to report these findings in scientific journals, they were more or less ignored. And I was young, and I'm told that I had kind of a extremely young face.

所以很容易被轻视——‘不过是个毛头小子做的研究’。但随着时间推移，我们积累了大量证据，负面反应开始涌现，尤其来自创伤治疗领域。那里的从业者会对我说：‘你是个优秀的研究者，但你的研究方向有问题。’若我在公开讲座中提及这些，治疗师们甚至会当面表示：‘我承认你是出色的科学家，但你这结论绝对错了。’

So it was easy to dismiss. This is just some young guy doing this research. But over time, we began to pile up the evidence, the negative reactions began to happen, and particularly from the trauma world. People in the trauma world would tell me, you know, you're a good researcher, but there's something wrong about what you're doing. And therapists would come up to me if I gave up if given a public lecture and tell me, you know, I'm sure you're a good scientist, but you're just wrong about this.

‘就是错的，我知道，你错了。’这种情形持续了很多年，足有十五甚至二十年才稍缓。但奇怪的是，近年来‘人人皆受创伤’的观念竟又死灰复燃。

It's just wrong. I know, and you're wrong. And that happened for quite some years. I'd say fifteen, maybe twenty years even, and it slowed down a bit. But oddly, there's been a revival of this idea in recent years, a revival of the idea that that everybody is traumatized.

你认为这种思潮源自何处，乔治？

Where do you think that comes from, George?

说实话这让我很意外。我认为主要流行于年轻群体，或许与互联网有关。像TikTok上就有所谓‘创伤倾倒’的文化现象——人们上传自己的创伤故事，这类内容往往大受欢迎。

Well, I it took me by surprise. I I think it's mostly in younger people. Probably, has something to do with the Internet. I know there are a lot of these cultural phenomenon like on TikTok. There's something called trauma dumping where people go on TikTok and tell their trauma stories, and those are very popular sites when people do that.

除此之外，我也不确定这种观念为何会卷土重来。

So I I don't know really besides that how this has come about, how this has been revived.

当然有可能，乔治，那些反对者中确实存在长期哀伤者。你曾提到约十分之一的人会因这类经历产生持久创伤。因此长期受困者从自身经历推而广之也情有可原。但其他医学领域鲜见类似现象——晚期癌症患者不会声称‘癌症只有转移性终末期这一种’。

Now it's certainly possible, George, that some of the people who come up and disagree with you are in fact people who have experienced chronic grief. You told me that about one in ten people do experience long term trauma from these experiences. So it's perhaps understandable why someone with long term problems might generalize from their own experiences. But, you know, we don't see this with many other medical conditions. People who have terminal stage four cancer don't say the only form of cancer is metastatic end stage cancer.

事实上对多数病症而言，若必须患病，人们都希望是最轻微的类型。但人们似乎难以接受‘轻微哀伤’或‘快速消退的哀伤’这个概念，总觉得哪里不对劲。

In fact, for most medical conditions, if we must have the problem, all of us would want to have the mildest form of the problem. But somehow people seem resistant to the idea of mild grief or grief that passes by quickly. Something about that seems wrong.

是的。哀伤有其特殊性——仿佛过快地走出来就是对逝者的不敬。但还有更深层原因：我们天生对威胁和危险高度敏感，会本能地关注负面事件。

Yeah. Grief, I think, has a different element to it. The that element that somehow you are not honoring the person that that that had died if you if you move on too quickly. But there there's another element to it also, which is that we are wired, if I can use that word, we're wired for threat, for danger. You know, what we we we pay attention when something bad happens.

互联网深知这一点。所有媒体都明白，网络点击量往往来自那些真正糟糕、能吸引眼球的事物，那些丑陋的灾难性事件。在现代，大约就在互联网兴起的同时，关于悲痛和创伤的诊断也开始盛行，大量书籍描述了这些情况可能带来的危害。这些书籍本意良好，也确实准确描述了当人们无法恢复时所面临的障碍。但这些书籍引起了广泛关注，我认为这导致流行文化中形成了一种观念，即这类事件一旦发生，就会对我们造成严重伤害。

The Internet knows this. You know, all media know this that clicks online come from from really bad things that are the attention getting things, ugly disastrous things. In the modern era, just around the time of when the Internet was really taking off was when also these diagnoses for for grief and trauma really came to the fore, and lots of books are written about how bad these things can be. And the books were well meant, and they were accurate books about the the about the disorder itself when people can't recover. But those books got a lot of attention and I think led to the idea in the popular culture that these events are going to, you know, really harm us when they happen.

我实际上提出过一个观点：治疗师之所以倾向于高估创伤的普遍性，主要是因为他们接触到的都是受创伤困扰的人。他们在实践中见到大量创伤案例，远超过普通人群中的基准比例。因此他们很容易将这种经验过度推广到大众身上。这是人之常情，既不邪恶也不愚蠢。

I've argued actually that the one reason why therapists tend to think that trauma is more common than it is and therapists do overestimate the prevalence of trauma typically is if they see traumatized people. They see traumatized people in their practice and they see a lot more than is in the normal populations than the base rates. So they're they tend to then overgeneralize that to the general population. It's a very human thing to do. It's not evil or dumb.

这正是治疗师作为人类会做出的非常人性化的行为。

It's a it's a very human thing that therapists do because they are humans.

我认为还有一个现象：在重大悲剧之后，比如9·11袭击事件，或是像COVID疫情这样的灾难，亦或是自然灾害。某种程度上，如果我跑来告诉你'情况会非常糟糕，很多人将受影响，我们必须采取大量措施'，结果证明我错了，人们顶多说'好吧'。

It's also the case that I think after mass tragedies, if you think about the nine eleven attacks or if you think about, you know, you know, disasters like the COVID pandemic or a natural disaster, In some ways, if I come and tell you, look, things are gonna be really bad. A lot of people are going to be affected. We should do a lot. And it turns out I'm wrong. People will just say, okay.

'他本意是好的，只是判断失误了'。但如果我在这种事件后告诉你'大多数人会没事的'，即便最终证明我是对的，我也可能显得冷酷无情。

You know, his intentions were in the right place, but he made a mistake. But if I come and tell you after an event like this, you know, most people are gonna be fine. You know, even if I turn out to be right, I can come across as callous.

确实。我称之为'复原力盲区'——特别是在灾难当中，当我们最初对严重负面事件产生强烈反应时，我们确实会感到痛苦。人类拥有精妙的应激反应系统，这个身心系统经过完美打磨。

Yeah. There's something I call the resilience blind spot, which is that right in the middle of it's particularly in a disaster. But when we're in the middle of in the throes of our initial reaction to a seriously aversive event, you know, we do get upset. We have a very good stress response. Our our mind body system has very well honed stress response.

这是数千万年进化的结晶。而要激活这个系统，你必须先感受到压力。因此最初的痛苦情绪会蒙蔽我们，让我们难以想象自己终将走出阴霾。作为人类，我们很难克服这种认知局限。

It's been honed by millions and millions of years of evolution. And you can't activate that response without first feeling stress. So you have to be upset in order for that response to kick in. So that initial upset we have tends to blind us to the idea that we'll ever not feel that way. We have a hard time as humans with that.

我们的大脑难以处理这种认知。当大规模灾难发生时，还会产生某种情绪传染——其他人也很痛苦，所以我也应该痛苦，于是我真的痛苦了，接着你也陷入痛苦，这种连锁反应发生得极快。

Our minds have a hard time with that. And when there's a disaster or something large scale, there's a kind of a contagion that happens as well. Other people are upset too. And so they're upset and I should be upset and I am upset and now you're upset, you know, and that kind of happens quite fast.

稍后回来我们将探讨：即便出于善意，大众对创伤的认知有时如何无意中制造新的痛苦。您正在收听《隐藏大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, how the popular understanding of trauma, even if well intentioned, can sometimes inadvertently create new forms of suffering. You are listening to Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta.

您对悲痛与悲剧有何体验？如何应对人生挫折？曾给经历丧失的人什么建议？若您愿意与《隐藏大脑》听众分享见解或疑问，请用手机录制语音备忘录发送至ideashiddenbrain.org，邮件主题请注明'创伤'。

What are your experiences with grief and tragedy? How have you coped with setbacks in your life? What advice have you shared with others who are dealing with loss? If you have thoughts or questions that you would be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org. Use the subject line trauma.

两三分钟就足够了，再次提醒，网址是ideashiddenbrain.org。乔治·博纳诺是哥伦比亚大学教师学院的心理学家，著有《创伤的终结：新韧性科学如何改变我们对PTSD的认知》。乔治，今天我们谈话的部分内容涉及你的研究成果与主流文化对如何应对挫折、悲剧或潜在创伤事件建议之间的分歧。能否谈谈文化中那些你认为无益的应对观念？

Two or three minutes is plenty, and again, that's ideashiddenbrain dot org. George Bonano is a psychologist at Teachers College Columbia University. He is the author of The End of Trauma How the New Science of Resilience is Changing How We Think About PTSD. Some of our conversation today, George, has been about how the work you have done, the scientific findings, are at odds with how our culture says we should respond or ought to respond to setbacks or tragedy or potentially traumatic events. Can you talk about some of the ways in which our culture offers what you might call unhelpful ideas about how we should respond to these events?

是的。我认为过去十年尤其存在过度关注人类脆弱性的倾向，仿佛人们很容易被击垮。社会上出现了一种不愿让人们承受任何痛苦的风气。希腊有个概念叫'幸福论'（eudaimonia），很多人可能知道，它是快乐的伴生物，但并非指愉悦或享乐的快感，而是通过成就获得的满足感——这个过程本身未必愉快。

Yes. I think that there's been a tendency in the last decade in particular of focusing far too much on human frailty, I think, as if people are easily breakable. And there's been a sense of not wanting people to suffer in any way. There's a Greek concept called eudaimonia, which many people might know about, which is is the kind of companion to happiness, but it's not happiness in the sense of joy and hedonic pleasure. It's a sense of reward from achieving something, and that isn't always fun.

因此我认为生命中许多有价值的事物都需要经历些许挣扎，而当前却存在回避一切挣扎迹象的倾向。

So I think a lot of what's valuable in life requires a little bit of struggle, and there's a there's a tendency right now to avoid any and all signs of that.

乔治指出，这个观点的一个启示是：不要假定痛苦的生活事件必然导致长期心理创伤。当然这种情况可能发生，若真如此应当认真对待并寻求帮助。但预设所有人或多数人都会陷入持久悲痛或长期创伤是无益的。

One implication of this idea, George says, is to not assume that painful and unpleasant life events will lead to prolonged mental suffering. That could be the case of course and if it is, it should be taken seriously and people who are suffering should seek help. But it's not useful to assume that everyone or even most people will have prolonged grief or long term trauma.

我经历过许多类似场景。记得有次我的孩子上幼儿园时，有位老师告诉我某个孩子的家长在暑假期间失去了父母，她不知道孩子返校后该如何处理。她咨询我的意见时，我说'或许什么都不用做'，这个回答让她非常惊讶。

I've had many experiences like this. Know, I recall once when my children were smaller and there was the preschool they were going to and one of the teachers told me that one of the children's parents had lost a parent over the summer break and she didn't know what to do when the child came back to the class. She asked me if she could talk with me about it, she said, what should I do? And I said, maybe nothing. And she was quite taken aback by that.

但我向她解释的重点是：这个孩子可能并不想要特殊关注，或许他只希望做个普通学生。不妨顺其自然观察发展。

But what the point I made to her was, you know, maybe this child doesn't want a lot of attention called to him. Maybe he wants to just be a normal kid in the class. Let let it play out and see what happens.

能否谈谈触发警告的普遍使用？许多学校和媒体机构担忧向学生、听众、观众传递负面信息会影响心理健康。这些警告有效吗？你认为它们与我们讨论的创伤和韧性有何关联？

Can you talk a moment about the widespread use of trigger warnings? Many schools and media organizations are worried about the mental health impacts of sharing negative information with students, with listeners, with viewers. Do these warnings work, and how do you think they're connected with the conversation we are having about trauma and resilience?

触发警告源于一种普遍认知——人们内心都潜藏着未解决的创伤，随时可能爆发。这种假设认为所有人内心都有濒临崩溃的创伤，而警告就是提醒'接下来的内容可能引发你的创伤反应'。

Trigger warnings were born out of the idea that everybody's well, there's there's a widespread idea that people have hidden traumas lurking inside them or past traumas that were unresolved and they're kind of somehow raw inside people. It's a very common became a very common assumption. And the trigger warning idea emerged from that as a kind of a a way to say, you know, if anybody's got a trauma here in the in this room or has a a trauma lurking inside them, we're gonna show some content here. You're gonna experience something if you if you stay for this presentation that might trigger that. And it was based on the idea that is that everybody is kinda walking around with these barely below the surface traumas that can explode at any point.

这种认知根本不符合事实。如果人类真如此脆弱，我们根本无法正常生活。研究已明确显示触发警告要么无效要么有害——收到警告的人往往比未收到者更焦虑。

And that's really not accurate in any sense of the word. There's really I I think we couldn't function as as human beings if we were actually built like that. And the research on trigger warnings has shown fairly convincingly that they either don't help or they cause harm. People who are given trigger warnings often are more anxious than people who didn't give trigger warnings, didn't receive them.

乔治与Hidden Brain前嘉宾达契尔·克特纳的研究发现，人们对心理脆弱性的错误认知导致他们在面对遭遇不幸者时如履薄冰。实际上研究显示，即使处于剧烈悲痛中的人也能展露笑容，而微笑与笑声恰恰与长期积极心理健康相关。

In research George has done with former Hidden Brain guest Dacher Keltner, he's found that our mistaken beliefs about human fragility cause people to walk on eggshells around those who have suffered losses. In fact, research finds that even people in acute grief can smile and laugh, and smiling and laughter are correlated with positive long term mental health.

研究非常清楚地表明，大多数人，甚至是最近几个月内失去配偶的人，在我们进行访谈时，发现大多数人在访谈过程中都展现出真诚的笑声和微笑。这是因为这些都是非常社会化的过程。大多数时候，几乎每次我们笑和微笑，都是与他人一起。它们非常具有亲社会性，且具有传染性。

The research shows quite clearly that most people, even people who've recently lost a spouse within the last few months, when we did interviews, we found that the majority of people were showing genuine laughter and smiling during the interview. And that's because these are very social processes. Most of the time when we laugh and smile, almost all the time, it's with other people. And they're very pro social. They're contagious.

它们将我们与他人连接起来。我们在关于悲伤的研究中看到的是，人们会在这类情绪中进进出出。你可能会看到某人哭泣、抱头、摇头，因为他们非常难过。然后三十秒后，他们又笑了。他们脸上还挂着泪水，却因为想起某事而笑了起来。

They connect us to other people. And what we've seen in our research with grief is that people kind of go in and out of these phases. You might see somebody crying and holding their head and, you know, shaking their head because they're so upset. And then thirty seconds later, they're laughing. They still have tears on their face and they're laughing about something they remembered.

这种笑声，假设这种笑声是一种重新与那个人连接的方式，也是一种几乎奖励对方倾听的方式，同时也是奖励我们自己，让我们感到与他人相连。这是一个非常非常人性化的过程。多年来对此有一种禁忌，因为某种程度上它显得不尊重或意味着你不在乎，但实际上，它确实意味着你足够在乎去继续生活。

And that laughter, posited, this laughter is a kind of a way to reconnect with the person and a way almost reward the person for listening, but also rewarding ourselves, letting us feel connected to somebody else. It's very, very human process. There's been a kind of a prohibition about it for a number of years because somehow it's not respectful or it means you don't care, but in fact, it actually does mean you care enough to live your life.

当我们一开始假设大多数人在面对挫折时会展现出韧性时，乔治说我们可以发现新的应对方式。在他父亲去世多年后，乔治发现自己会大声与父亲对话。旁观者可能会认为这是长期未解决的创伤在显现。乔治说事实恰恰相反。他正在发展与父亲的关系，这种关系在他父亲在世时并不存在。

When we start by assuming most people will display resilience in the face of setbacks, George says we can discover new ways to cope. Years after his father's death, George found himself conversing aloud with his dad. Someone who was watching him might have thought that long standing unresolved traumas were rearing their head. George says it was just the opposite. He was developing a relationship with his father that he did not have while his father was alive.

我在自己生活中所做的是，我开始与父亲交谈，主要是在我有了自己的孩子之后。那时我已成为一名父亲，而为人父母并不容易。有时我会想，尽管父亲在世时我们之间有困难，但我希望他还活着。我觉得现在情况会不同。我是一个不同的人了，他也无疑会是一个不同的人。于是我开始在我大楼的电梯里与他交谈。

What I had done in my own life was I began to talk with my father and I would talk with him and this is primarily when I had my own children and so I was now a father and being a father being a parent is not easy and there were times when I just thought I wish that my father was alive despite the difficulties we had when he was alive. I felt this would be different now. I'm a different person. He would undoubtedly be a different person as well. And so I began to talk with him in the elevator in my building.

我住在纽约一栋老建筑里，电梯相当慢。所以我觉得在电梯里很安全，因为没人会看到我，而且我知道门什么时候会开，因为电梯会慢慢停下，门开之前会有一个停顿。于是我开始与父亲交谈，我发现这些对话让我感到非常安慰。

I live in an old building in New York and the elevator is quite slow. So I felt safe in the elevator because nobody would see me, and I knew when that door was going to open because the elevator would stop slowly and there was a pause before the door opened. So I began to talk with my father, and I found this very comforting to have these conversations with him.

乔治，我想知道你问了父亲什么，他是否有所回应？

I'm wondering what you asked your father, George, and whether he said anything in response?

我可能会问关于我的某个孩子的问题，或者有孩子如何改变你的思维方式。我注意到一些事情，比如在成为父母之前我更加无忧无虑，而现在我会担心钱的问题。我会说，爸爸，我知道你以前也很担心钱的问题，这真的很难。我就是这样与他交谈。显然，他从未回应过，但更像是我想象他会如何回应，并能够告诉他这些。

I might be asking about one of my children or how having children changes the way you think. I was noticing things say I would been much more carefree until I became a parent and I was worrying about money and I would say something you know dad I know you were very concerned about money you know this is really hard you know and I would really just talk with him about it. Obviously, he'd never answered back, but, you know, it was more like I would imagine how he was responding and just be able to tell him this.

人们对困难生活事件的反应有很大的差异。是什么导致一个人在失去或挫折后无尽地痛苦，而其他人却能迅速恢复？人类韧性的驱动因素是什么？长期以来，研究人员一直在探讨这个问题。许多不同的因素，如勇气、耐心或社会关系，都可以影响我们是否具有韧性。

There is a great deal of variability in how people respond to difficult life events. What causes one person to suffer endlessly after a loss or setback, while others bounce back? What are the drivers of human resilience? For a long time, researchers have wrestled with the question. Many different factors, like courage or patience or social ties, can shape whether we are resilient.

但乔治·博南诺发现，有一个核心取向是绝对关键的。

But George Bonanno has found that there is one central orientation that is absolutely crucial.

这实际上是一个关于如何确定在特定情境下何为正确行为方式的问题。在这种情境下，正确的应对方式是什么？这让我想到了我们称之为行为灵活性的概念。这是一套我们在解决此类问题的人身上观察到的技能组合。我现在需要做什么？

It's it's a matter of really working out what is the right situate what is the right way to behave in this situation? What's the right way to cope in that situation? And that led me to this idea of what we call behavioral flexibility. It's a set of skills that we we see in people that solve this problem. What do I need to do now?

我现在面临什么问题？对此我需要采取什么行动？我能做些什么？

What's the problem I'm facing now and what do I need to do about it? What can I do about it?

我们在Hidden Brain Plus的配套故事中讨论过这个理念，标题为《如何更具韧性》。如果您是订阅用户，该集节目现在应该已在您的播客订阅列表中。若非如此，诚邀您访问support.hiddenbrain.org注册（苹果设备用户请前往apple.co/hiddenbrain），两地均提供一周免费试用，您的支持对我们节目发展至关重要。再次提醒：support.hiddenbrain.org 或 apple.co/hiddenbrain。乔治·博南诺是哥伦比亚大学教师学院的心理学家。

We talk about this idea in our companion story on Hidden Brain Plus. It's titled How to Be More Resilient. If you are a subscriber, that episode should be available right now in your podcast feed. If not, I would love for you to sign up at support.hiddenbrain.org If you are using an Apple device, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain You'll have access to a free one week trial in both places and your support will go a long way to helping us build the show. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org and apple.co/hiddenbrain George Bonanno is a psychologist at Teachers College Columbia University.

他是《终结：韧性新科学如何改变我们对PTSD的认知》及《彼岸：丧亲新科学揭示失去后的生活》的作者。乔治，非常感谢您今天做客Hidden Brain节目。

He is the author of The End of How the New Science of Resilience is Changing How We Think About PTSD and The Other Side of What the New Science of Bereavement tells us about life after loss. George, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

这是我的荣幸，尚卡尔。

It's been absolutely my pleasure, Shankar.

您是否经历过与本期节目观点相符或相悖的悲剧事件？是否曾因对重大生活事件的感受与周围人的期待不符而陷入困境？如果您有愿意与Hidden Brain听众分享的问题或想法，请用手机录制语音备忘录发送至ideashiddenbrain.org，邮件主题标注「创伤」，两到三分钟长度即可。

Have you had experiences with tragedy that match or contradict the ideas you heard on the show today? Have you experienced difficulty aligning how you felt about a terrible life event with how those around you expected you to behave? If you have thoughts or questions for George Bonanno that you would be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org. Use the subject line Trauma. Two or three minutes is plenty.

再次强调：ideashiddenbrain.org。Hidden Brain由Hidden Brain Media制作，音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·夸雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。塔拉·博伊尔担任执行制作人，我是Hidden Brain的执行编辑。

Again, that's ideashiddenbrain .org. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brains executive editor.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔姆，下次见。

I'm Shankar Vedantham. See you soon.