什么时候可以说谎

所以当我们试图适应这些差异时，很容易产生各种复杂的误解。

And so there's just a lot of room for complicated misunderstandings when we try to accommodate these differences.

到目前为止，我们讨论的都是那些我们可能对之说谎的对象处于脆弱或无行为能力的情况。

So far we've been talking about situations in which the person to whom we might lie is vulnerable or incapacitated.

等我们回来后，会探讨另一类谎言——大多数人觉得这类谎言是可以接受的，它们源于信息本身的性质。

When we come back, we look at another category of lies that most people feel are acceptable lies that are shaped by the nature of the information itself.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

你生活中有没有过这样的经历：觉得不得不撒谎，或者不得不对真相稍作修饰？

Have you had situations in your life where you feel you had to lie Or situations where you had to shade the truth?

如果你愿意和《隐藏思维》的听众分享你的故事，请用手机录一段语音备忘录，发送到 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

If you'd be willing to share your story with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：Lies。

Use the subject line Lies.

再次提醒，邮箱地址是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

That email address again is feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

心理学家艾玛·利文研究的是诚实与欺骗。

Psychologist Emma Levine studies truth telling and deception.

她的研究显示，我们常想划清的那条明确界限——永远说真话——在现实中要复杂得多。

Her research suggests that the clear and simple line we often seek to draw, always tell the truth, is more complicated in practice.

有些真相会伤人，有些谎言却是出于善意。

There are harmful truths and there are selfless lies.

艾玛，你发现很多人觉得，涉及主观判断的事情撒点谎是可以接受的。

Emma, you find that many people think it's okay to lie about things that involve subjective judgment.

你曾经设计过一个情景，讲的是同事戴的一条真丝围巾。

You once came up with a vignette involving a silk scarf worn by a coworker.

讲讲这个故事。

Describe that story.

给我描述一下这个情景。

Describe that scenario for me.

好的。

Sure.

想象一下，你有个同事戴着一条她特别喜欢的围巾，但你觉得它丑得不行。

So imagine you have a coworker who is wearing a scarf that they love, but you think is quite hideous.

你该不该告诉她你真实的想法？

Should you tell them your opinion about the scarf?

对吧？

Right?

这就是基本的情景。

This is the basic scenario.

如果只是这样简单地提出问题，大约有40%的人认为你应该撒个谎，假装喜欢那条围巾。

And if you just set it up like that, then about 40% of participants think you should lie and pretend you like the scarf.

所以已经有不少人这么想了。

So already a substantial amount.

但现在你确定只有你自己觉得难看，别人都特别喜欢这条围巾。

But now imagine you know for sure that you're the only one who thinks this and everyone else really likes the scarf.

那你还该告诉他们吗？

Then should you tell them?

现在，大多数人，71%的人都说：不该说。

Now, most people, 71% of people say, no.

这时候，你 definitely 应该撒个谎。

Now, you should definitely lie.

所以，对吧，这正好触及了主观性的问题。

And so, right, this is hitting this idea of subjectivity.

如果大家都觉得你的围巾难看，或者很可能大家都这么觉得，那或许真该有人告诉你，这样你改了，也不会得罪整个办公室的人。

If everyone thinks your scarf is ugly or it might be the case that everyone thinks your scarf is ugly, then perhaps someone should tell you because you could change and not offend everyone in your office.

但如果你清楚，这纯粹只是你个人的独特偏好。

But if you know, right, this is just your idiosyncratic preference.

这完全是主观判断，那为什么你觉得应该说出来呢？

It's a totally subjective judgment, then why do you think, right, it should be shared?

这正是问题的关键所在。

That's what's going on here.

当人们觉得撒谎是可以接受的时候，往往是因为涉及的信息无关紧要。

A similar situation when people agree it's okay to lie is when the information involved is trivial.

你做过一个实验，描述了一场聚餐，大家都不喜欢那顿饭。

You ran an experiment where you described a dinner party where people didn't like the food.

是的。

Yeah.

在这种情境下，我设计了很多类似的情景，都是关于人们对别人有负面评价的情况。

So in that scenario, and I run a lot of scenarios in which people have negative opinions of someone else.

在这个具体的情景里，你要想象自己参加一场聚餐，结果汤太咸了。

In this particular scenario, you are asked to imagine that you go to a dinner party and the soup is salty.

汤太咸了。

So the soup is salty.

我们在不同实验条件下改变的是，这个晚宴的主人是专业厨师，还是只是个业余爱好者在玩票。

And what we vary across conditions with our participants is whether the host of this dinner party is a professional chef or, right, just a novice cooking for fun.

如果主人是专业厨师，那关于他汤的质量的信息就不算小事。

So if the host is a professional chef, the information about the quality of their soup is not trivial.

这挺重要的，毕竟这可是他谋生的本事。

It's kind of important because this is what they do for a living.

在这种情况下，只有大约20%的参与者——确切地说是18%——认为撒谎才是对的做法。

So in that situation, only about 20% of participants, actually only 18 to be exact, think that the right thing to do is to lie.

但如果你知道这人只是个新手，在厨房里随便玩玩，就有更多人觉得应该撒个谎。

But if you know that the person is a novice chef just having fun in their kitchen, now a lot more people think you should lie.

37.8%。

37.8%.

这是因为，对他家汤的评价变得无关紧要了。

And this is because the information about the quality of their soup becomes trivial.

根本没什么实质影响，也不值得较真。

It's not important or material for any reason.

这挺有意思的。

So it's interesting.

两种情况下，信息其实是一样的。

It's the same information in both cases.

但在一种情况下，这个信息更有分量。

But in one situation, the information carries weight.

对专业厨师来说，知道自己的菜出了问题很重要。

It matters to a professional chef to know that something is wrong with his or her cooking.

但对新手厨师来说，同样的信息只会伤人自尊。

But the same information to a novice chef, you're just hurting the person's feelings.

说得对。

Exactly.

当然，不管怎样，信息本身还是有作用的，所以即使对新手，大家也并不都认同应该撒谎。

And, of course, it carries some information either way, and that's why, there's not a huge agreement that you should lie, even for the novice chef.

我们只是在调整这条信息的重要性和价值程度。

But we're varying the degree to which that information is meaningful and valuable.

有时候我们会遇到这样的情况：别人根本无法控制或改变已经发生的事。

So sometimes we encounter situations in which another person cannot do anything to control or change what has happened.

你之前提到过一个关于实习生成语结巴的例子。

You came up with one scenario involving the case of an intern who stuttered.

这个例子具体是怎么回事？实验又是怎么进行的，艾玛？

What was this example, and how did the experiment unfold, Emma?

在这个实验里，参与者要想象一位暑期实习生做期末汇报——我当年当实习生时也做过这种事。

In this experiment, participants are imagining that summer intern gives an end of summer presentation, something I had to do in my life as an intern, way back when.

实习生在做汇报时突然结巴了，导致整个演讲听起来有点吃力。

So they're giving a presentation and and they stutter during it, making the presentation a bit hard to listen to.

然后你得知，这个结巴是因为紧张造成的，只要多加练习，他很可能就能克服。

And you learn that either the stutter was driven by nerves, that this intern was nervous, but they can likely overcome this stutter with more practice.

或者你得知，这个人天生就有无法控制的口吃问题。

Or you learn that this person has a stutter that they cannot control.

在这项研究中，这两种情况会影响人们对是否该说谎的判断。

In this study, that influences the endorsement of deception.

所以有18.8%的参与者认为，当对方能通过练习改善口吃时——也就是只是紧张导致的——应该撒谎。

So eighteen point eight percent of participants say you should lie when the person can improve their ability to speak without a stutter, when it was just nerves.

但当对方根本无法控制口吃时，大多数人都觉得撒谎是合乎道德的，比例高达64.4%。

But now the majority start thinking it's ethical to lie, sixty four point four percent, when the person cannot control their stutter.

所以，关键在于你所掌握的信息是否具有可学习性，能否带来改变。

So the degree to which the information is something you can learn from and that can lead to change

对。

Mhmm.

这种差异似乎正是由这一点驱动的。

Seems to be what's driving that difference.

最有趣的是，听你描述这些场景时，我发现自己对这件事的看法也在不断变化。

What's so interesting is as you're painting these scenarios, I can see my own feelings and opinions change.

我的意思是，如果你告诉我这个实习生根本控制不了口吃，那我是否该告诉他实情，答案自然就不同了。

I mean, if you tell me that the intern cannot control their stutter, of course, it changes whether you tell them the truth or not.

没错。

Right.

我觉得这正是最有趣的地方。

And I think that's what's so interesting.

我特别喜欢这项研究的一点是，这些发现其实都没什么出人意料的。

And one thing I love about this body of research, it's that none of these are actually all that surprising.

你跟别人说这些，大家都会说：对啊。

You tell them to people and everyone's like, yeah.

这还用说吗。

Duh.

但为什么我们从不把这些话说出来呢？

But then why don't we say this out loud?

为什么我们不教给孩子呢？

Why don't we teach our children?

为什么我们不去讨论这些准则呢？

Why don't we talk about these rules?

仔细想想，其实它们都再明显不过了。

They're actually quite obvious upon reflection.

另一种情况是，一位经理需要向员工传达一些坏消息，他得决定是否要提前告诉一位即将度过特别周末的员工。

Another situation involves a manager who has to give some bad news to his employees and has to decide whether to share this bad news with one employee who is about to have a very special weekend.

你给我描述一下这个场景。

Paint a picture of this scenario for me.

当然。

Sure.

这个场景讲的是裁员。

So this is a scenario about layoffs.

经理知道裁员即将发生。

Manager knows layoffs are coming.

我们得通知所有员工。

We have to tell the employees.

有位员工在周五下午过来，问：嘿，出什么事了？

And one of the employees drops by on a Friday afternoon and says, hey, what's going on?

我马上就要去度周末了。

I'm about to head out for the weekend.

这时候，经理就有了机会告诉员工裁员的事。

And this is the opportunity for the manager to tell the employee about the layoffs.

在对照组里，我们只给参与者提供这些信息。

So in the control condition, that's about all the information that we give participants.

在这种情况下，大多数人觉得应该说实话，只有大约22%到23%的人认为撒谎才是对的。

And in that case, most people think you should tell the truth, and only about 22, 23% of participants think the right thing to do is to lie.

而在另一种情境中，参与者得知这名员工在周五下班前过来，因为他周六就要去结婚了。

Now in another condition, participants learn that the employee swings by on a Friday before leaving for their wedding, which is on Saturday.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

对。

Right.

这就会改变我们对这件事的看法。

That changes how we think about this.

现在，有52%的人认为应该撒谎。

Now, 52% of participants think that you should lie.

所以有更多人觉得应该撒谎，毕竟谁愿意毁了人家的婚礼呢？

So a significant amount more because why would you spoil this person's wedding?

你完全可以等到下周再告诉他们。

You could just tell them right the next week.

这其实也反映在各种宗教和经典里，大家都认为不该破坏那些神圣的时刻。

And this is actually, you know, something that comes up in different religions and different texts that you really shouldn't spoil sacred events.

在犹太教里，有一本叫《塔木德》的书，里面就讨论过类似的情境。

In in Judaism, a book, called the Talmud, they debate kind of some of these situations.

他们说，婚礼当天一定要夸新娘漂亮，不管心里怎么想，都不该扫了这份喜气。

They say, you should always tell a bride she's beautiful on her wedding day because why would you spoil that special time no matter what you really think?

当我们看这些人们认为说谎可以被接受的理由时，至少有一条核心标准是成立的。

So when we look at all these varied reasons that people say that lying is okay, there is at least one powerful true line.

这个谎言是出于自私的动机，还是善意的动机？

Is the lie the product of selfish intentions or benevolent intentions?

Emma，你来解释一下这两者的区别。

Explain this difference, Emma.

所以这些情况，本质上都是在应用‘无谓伤害’这个逻辑。

So all of these situations, what they're doing is they're mapping this logic of unnecessary harm.

你说了谎，但我们觉得这是对的，因为这样避免了让对方承受不必要的伤害。

You tell the lie, and we think that lying is the right thing to do because it's sparing the listener from unnecessary harm.

当这些信息对对方既无帮助也无用处时，你是在保护他们的情绪。

It's protecting their feelings when there's nothing they could learn or do with this information.

而我们认为，这种做法是出于善意的。

And that's what we think is benevolent.

人们普遍相信，保护对方免受这种无谓伤害，才是真正为他们着想。

That really promotes or people believe that it promotes the target's best interest to protect them from that unnecessary harm.

换句话说，我们真正想说的，不是‘别撒谎’，而是‘别撒自私的谎’？

So in other words, instead of saying don't tell lies, is what we really mean to say don't tell selfish lies?

我们当然指的是别撒自私的谎。

We certainly mean don't tell selfish lies.

但我认为，这事儿还是挺复杂的。

I think it's it's still quite complicated.

某种程度上，我们确实意思是别撒谎，因为我们担心一旦允许人们撒点小谎，就会带来风险。

In some ways, we really do mean don't tell lies because we're afraid of the risk of allowing people to tell some lies.

所以这些情况其实非常稳固。

So these situations are really robust.

我们会反复思考这些情况。

We reflect on them.

我们认为，在这个人无法改变、信息又无关紧要的情况下，撒个谎是可以接受的。

We think in this given situation, when a person can't change or the information is trivial, we should lie.

但同时我们也觉得，如果告诉人们偶尔可以撒谎，他们也难免会判断失误。

At the same time, we think if we tell people they can lie sometimes, they're also going to get it wrong sometimes.

结果就是，他们要么撒自私的谎，要么好心办坏事的谎。

And they're going to end up telling selfish lies or telling well meaning lies that actually do harm.

我们对这种错误非常非常担忧。

And we're very, very worried about that error.

所以我们宁愿生活在一个人们在不该说真话的时候还坚持说真话的世界，也不愿生活在一个人们在不该撒谎时却撒了谎的世界。

And so we'd rather live in a world where people tell truths in the wrong circumstances instead of lies in the wrong circumstances.

是的

Yeah.

所以这其实挺复杂的。

So it's it's complicated.

所以你发现，当人们说出这些无私的谎言、利他的假话时，反而会增加对方对说谎者的信任吗？

So you found that when people tell these selfless falsehoods, these prosocial lies, that actually these prosocial lies increase trust in the liar?

有可能。

They can.

它们确实能提升信任。

They can increase trust.

在这些情况下，如果双方都明白，说这个谎是为了避免不必要的伤害，听的人就会更相信说话者是真心为他着想。

So in these types of situations, when both parties recognize that telling the lie prevents unnecessary harm, the listener will increase in their belief that the communicator has their best interest in mind.

所以这是一种特定形式的信任。

And so that's a certain form of trust.

于是我更愿意对你敞开心扉，主动向你寻求支持。

I'm now willing to be emotionally vulnerable to you, to seek you out for support.

我把你当成一个真心为我好的人。

I trust you as someone who is benevolent towards me.

这种信任在某些关系里特别重要。

And that's really important in some relationships.

比如回到开头的例子，我和我妈妈之间的关系。

Like, going back to the opening example, the relationship, I have with my mother.

但问题是，这也会削弱基于诚实的信任——虽然我相信你愿意保护我、关心我、对我有同情心，但我也明白，你的话并不总是真实可信的。

But the double edged sword is it still does reduce integrity based trust in that despite believing this is someone who I can count on to protect me and care for me and be compassionate, I also recognize that I can't always count on the veracity of their words.

所以它提升了基于善意的信任，却依然损害了基于诚实的信任。

And so it increases one type of trust, benevolence based trust, while still undermining integrity based trust.

某种程度上，我觉得我们很多人都同时想要两样彼此矛盾的东西。

You know, in some ways, I think many of us simultaneously want two things that are at odds with one another.

我们钦佩那些不愿让别人无谓受苦的人。

We admire people who spare others from needless pain.

但我们也敬佩那些不管怎样都敢说真话的人。

But we also admire people who say what they think no matter what.

我大学时有个朋友，想到什么就说什么，跟个莽撞的公牛似的，伤了不少人。

You know, had a friend in college who always said whatever he thought, and he was like a bull in a china shop, and he caused a lot of hurt.

但时间久了，大家反而相信他说的每句好话，因为知道他从不骗人。

But over time, people also came to trust when he told them anything positive because they knew that he was telling the truth.

没错。

Right.

这其实也反映出我们愿意接受哪种错误。

And I think this, again, speaks to the tension and what errors we're comfortable with.

那些直言不讳的人很难交到朋友，但人们会渐渐信任他们说的话。

So people who are brutal truth tellers have a hard time making friends, but they, right, come to be trusted for their words.

而我们往往更愿意做这样的人，也不愿成为那种话越来越没人信的人。

And often, we'd rather be that person than the person whose words erode in value over time.

不过，这两种信任本质上是完全不同的。

But these are two very different types of trust, nonetheless.

你能不能也谈谈，善意的谎言听着是为对方好，但我总在想，有时候善意的谎言和自私的谎言之间，是不是只隔着一层薄纸？

Can you also talk about the idea that benevolent lies sound benevolent, but I'm wondering if there is a thin line sometimes between benevolent lies and selfish lies.

我们是不是常常为了私利撒谎，却骗自己说那是出于好意？

Can't we tell lies for selfish reasons and convince ourselves that we have in fact done so for benevolent reasons?

没错。

Absolutely.

而且这又带来另一个风险：一旦我们接受某些谎言是合理的，就容易误以为自己在避免不必要的伤害，其实根本没必要。

And this, again, is another danger in accepting that some lies are good, is that we can convince ourselves that we're in these situations of unnecessary harm when we're really not.

再回到脆弱这个话题。

So going back to the idea of fragility.

在某些情况下，说话的人和听的人双方都明白，听者只是暂时比较脆弱。

In some cases, both parties, communicators and listeners, will recognize that the listener is temporarily fragile.

他正经历一些事。

They're going through something.

所以，短期的隐瞒是可以理解、可以接受的。

Therefore, temporary deception is appropriate, acceptable.

之后再把真相告诉他，这才是说话者该做的。

And then telling them the truth at a later time is what a communicator should do.

对。

Mhmm.

但一旦我们意识到，把别人看成脆弱的其实很容易。

But once we know that it's easy to see others as fragile.

对吧？

Right?

我可能会觉得职场中的女性比较脆弱。

I could believe that women in the workplace are fragile.

我不该给她们负面反馈。

I shouldn't tell them negative feedback.

这其实可能是为了避免冲突。

And that might be really to avoid conflict.

所以这是自私的。

So that's selfish.

这背后可能还带着某种刻板印象。

It might be based on some stereotype.

所以这种想法并不准确，尽管未必是出于自私。

So it's inaccurate despite not necessarily being selfish.

它让我们更容易犯下各种错误，不管是自私的还是其他的。

And it just opens us up to all of these mistakes, selfish and otherwise.

我在想那个出轨的配偶，她没告诉伴侣自己有了外遇。

I mean, I'm thinking about the cheating spouse who is not telling her partner that she had the affair.

她说，反正伴侣再过二十四小时就要去世了，我不想让他为这事烦心。

And she says, okay, the partner is twenty four hours away from dying, and so I don't want to burden him with this information.

但如果伴侣还有一周就要走了呢？

But what if your partner is now a week away from dying?

如果还有一个月呢？

What if your partner is a month away from dying?

如果还有一年呢？

What if your partner is a year away from dying?

到底在哪个点上，脆弱和不脆弱的界限才成立？

At what point is the line between fragility and nonfragility?

没错。

Right.

如果不直接问对方的意愿，了解他们真正想要什么，几乎不可能做出准确判断。

It's almost impossible to know without asking someone their preferences directly and having their insight into what they want.

否则，我们只是凭主观猜测这条界限在哪里。

Otherwise, we're just making this subjective judgment about where the line is.

这条界限确实存在，但我们能否事先预测它，还不清楚。

The line exists, but whether we can predict it, a priori is unclear.

你怎么看待那些坚持‘诚实是最好的策略’的人？

What do you make of the people who are basically sticking to the honesty is the best policy?

在你给我的很多例子中，确实令人惊讶的是，有不少人某种程度上支持欺骗。

So in the many examples that you've given me, it's true and and surprising that significant numbers of people endorse deception at some level.

根据你如何调整情境，支持欺骗的人还会更多。

Depending on how you tweak the scenarios, more people endorse deception.

但你的研究也清楚显示，即使在对方非常脆弱、即将结婚或面临重要考试的情况下，仍有一些人坚持说真话。

But it's also the case clearly in your studies that even in situations where someone is very vulnerable or about to have a wedding or dealing with an important test, there are some people who say always tell the truth.

你的原则其实就是‘不可撒谎’。

Your your mandate is, in fact, to follow thou shalt not lie.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这方面因人而异。

I think there are individual differences on this.

我们之前主要关注了中美之间的文化差异，但个人之间的差异也同样存在。

I mean, so far, we've tapped on tapped into the cross cultural difference, US versus China, but there's also individual, differences.

有些人无论何时都坚持要知道真相，也始终坚持说真话。

Some people want to know the truth at all times and tell the truth at all times.

但也有些人更适应这种权衡，甚至认为舒适感和人际和谐有时才是最重要的。

And some people are more comfortable with these trade offs or actually believe that comfort and social harmony sometimes reign supreme.

你刚才说的让我想到，这两类人的区别，可能在于他们与社群的联系有多紧密，与他人的关系有多深。

What you just said makes me think is the distinction between these two groups of people, how much they actually are embedded in their communities and how much they're actually connected to other people.

因为从非常个人主义的角度来看，我会觉得，我始终希望别人对我讲真话，也始终希望自己对别人讲真话。

Because I think a very individualistic point of view would say, I always want to be told the truth, and I always want to be telling other people the truth.

但你越注重社群，越融入社会体系，越看重这些关系，就越会考虑社会和谐与他人的感受，而不仅仅是‘我有没有说真话’或‘我有没有被欺骗’。

But the more community minded you are, the more you're embedded in social systems, the more you value those social systems, the more you try and take into account social harmony and how other people are feeling and not just am I telling the truth or am I being lied to.

我觉得这有一定道理。

I think that's partly right.

在开展这项跨文化研究之前，我也有过类似的直觉，但实际结果比你描述的要复杂得多。

It's an intuition I certainly had before heading into some cross cultural research on this topic, which actually proved a bit more complicated than the story you've laid out.

人们很容易预测，在更注重集体主义的中国，相比美国，会更重视社会和谐，也更能接受欺骗。

So it's easy to make a prediction that in China, where there's more collectivism versus The US, that they'll value social harmony and be, more accepting of deception than in The US.

我们在医疗场景中确实看到了这种现象，但这其实源于人们对希望、生命尽头的思考，以及对运气的信念。

And now we see that in the medical context, but that seems to be a function of the belief and importance of hope and things we think about at the end of life and the role of luck.

对吧？

Right?

知道自己得了癌症，如果直接说出口，反而会招来厄运。

So knowing that you have cancer saying out loud, can creates bad luck.

但这种想法并不会延伸到其他很多情境中。

But this actually doesn't carry over into a lot of other situations.

所以我们做了几项研究，考察了美国和中国人们对批评性反馈的看法和偏好。

So we ran studies, looking at beliefs about and preferences for just critical feedback in The US and China.

结果发现，中国人其实比美国人更倾向于接受批评性反馈。

And actually, we see a greater preference for critical feedback in China than in The US.

这背后的原因也跟社群有关——人们觉得对彼此的成长和行为规范负有更多责任。

And that's for a different reason also related to communities, which is people feel more responsible for each other and their development and their adherence to norms.

对吧？

Right?

如果我觉得我们这个群体重视努力工作，那我就会直接告诉你，我觉得你最近不够努力。

So if I think we're all part of a community that values working hard, I'm gonna tell you when I think you're not working hard.

关心你的成长，本身就是做个好社群成员的一部分。

That's part of being a good community member is valuing your growth.

但在美国，大家普遍觉得：你过你的日子就行。

Whereas in The US, it's like, you do you.

你懂的。

You know?

你不想努力，但我愿意。

You don't wanna work hard, but I do.

我对你个人的选择不负责任。

I'm not responsible for your individual choices.

所以这两种情况表现得完全不同。

And so you see that playing out quite differently.

你在新冠疫情期间有过被欺骗的经历。

You had an experience of being lied to during the COVID pandemic.

能跟我讲讲当时发生了什么吗，艾玛？

Describe for me what happened, Emma.

疫情刚开始的时候，我正怀着孕。

So I was pregnant during the beginning of the pandemic.

所以我特别关注各种风险，想知道到底发生了什么，好保护自己，还有我后来出生的孩子。

So I was very, very focused on knowing all of the risks and what was going on and protecting me, and, you know, my now born child.

当时有一件事是，我父母本来要来帮我准备迎接女儿出生的事。

So one thing that happened was my parents were supposed to come to town to help me prepare and set up, as I was awaiting the birth of my daughter.

他们被严格要求不能跟任何人来往。

And they were under strict instruction that they were not to socialize.

不能跟任何人接触。

They should not socialize with anyone.

不能见任何一个人。

They should not see anyone.

在女儿出生前的那些日子里，我绝对不允许哪怕一个细菌进我家门，对吧。

There was no way I was going to let even single germ into my household, right, in the days before my daughter was born.

在他们来之前不久，我们还开了一次Zoom会议。

And we had a Zoom call shortly before they were supposed to come.

他们当时正跟我的姑姑们随便聊天，而我就在场。

And they're talking to my aunts kind of casually, but I'm there.

他们还提到，刚请朋友来家里吃披萨。

And they're mentioning that they had their friends over for pizza.

可我明明被保证过，他们不会有任何社交活动。

And I had been assured that there was no socializing.

结果呢，其实他们确实跟人接触了。

And it turns out, well, there had been socializing.

这根本就是骗人。

There was deception.

我跟妈妈聊了这件事，她说她不想给你添麻烦。

And, you know, I talked to my mother about this and she said, I didn't I didn't wanna burden you.

她不想让你担心。

I didn't wanna worry you.

我们都在外面。

We were outside.

我们根本没碰过面。

We didn't even come in contact with each other.

就在露台上。

We're on the deck.

我们一直保持社交距离。

We stayed socially distanced.

我确信你完全不用担心有任何风险。

I I'm confident there is absolutely no risk to you.

所以我觉得没必要让你知道。

So I just didn't think it was necessary to know.

这其实和你婚礼时她做的没什么不同。

So this is not actually unlike what she did during your wedding.

你的反应也一样吗？

Was your reaction the same?

不一样。

No.

这次情况不一样。

It was different.

这再次说明，想在两者之间找到平衡其实挺有风险的。

And this, again, points to some of the risks of trying to get this trade off right.

这次我真的特别生气。

So here, I was very upset.

我其实没让他们进来。

I actually didn't let them come.

我让他们等着，

I made them wait

整整

a whole

一周，还去做了检测。

week and get tested.

哇。

Wow.

是的，我当时对这一切都非常担心。

I was, yes, very very concerned about all of this.

我很生气，但这并不是因为她的动机不同。

Upset and it's not because her motivations were different.

我觉得动机是一样的。

I think the motivations were the same.

他们是出于好意。

They were benevolent.

她不想让我在一种她觉得没必要告知的情况下操心，就是我之前说过的那种逻辑。

She didn't want to stress me out in a situation that she didn't think provided necessary information, right, along the logic that I've outlined before.

但这次，我觉得这些信息确实很重要。

But in this situation, I did feel the information was necessary.

我们的看法不一样。

We had different beliefs.

所以这次的隐瞒让我觉得特别专制、不公平，不像以前那样是为我好。

And so the lie felt very paternalistic and unfair, not pro social as it had before.

我在想，你有没有跟妈妈艾玛谈过，明确告诉她什么时候可以对你撒善意的谎，什么时候不可以？

I'm wondering if you've had a conversation with your mom, Emma, laying out when and how she's allowed to tell you benevolent lies and when she's not.

我确实应该谈一谈。

I probably should.

我还没谈过，你这么一问，我倒觉得有点奇怪，因为我总劝别人，也写在论文里，说避免这种问题最好的办法就是开诚布公地聊聊。

I I haven't done it, which is, now that you ask, a bit strange because I do give the advice to other people and in my papers that one way to avoid this risk is to have conversations about this.

对吧？

Right?

得有明确的社会契约。

To have explicit kind of social contracts.

你在什么情况下喜欢什么样的反馈？

What type of feedback do you like in what situations?

医生可以对病人这么做。

Doctors can do this with patients.

你是想了解所有信息和每一个风险，还是……

How much do you want to know everything and every risk?

只想关注下一步和接下来的计划？

Or do you wanna just focus on each next step and the plan moving forward?

其实有很多方式可以谈这些，确保你在真正出于善意、符合对方利益的时候选择善意隐瞒。

So there are ways to have these conversations so that you can be sure you're erring on the side of benevolence when it's really benevolent, when it aligns with the listener's interests.

我们还没谈过，也许真该谈一谈。

We haven't had that conversation and perhaps we should.

在本期节目的配套故事中，仅限Hidden Brain Plus会员收听，我们将探讨如何弥合我们实际纵容的种种谎言与口口声声厌恶的谎言之间的鸿沟。

In our companion story to this episode, exclusively on Hidden Brain Plus, we explore ways to bridge the gap between the many lies we condone in practice and the lying we claim to abhor.

如果我们不再一边歌颂真相、一边说谎，而是坦诚面对自己说谎的方式，会发生什么？

Instead of exalting the truth while telling lies, what would happen if we told the truth about our lying ways?

如果你已经是Hidden Brain Plus的会员，这一期节目现在就能在你的播客推送里听到。

If you're a subscriber to Hidden Brain Plus, that episode is available in your podcast feed right now.

这一期的标题是《坦白说谎》。

It's titled Telling the Truth About Lies.

如果你还没订阅，欢迎访问 support.hiddenbrain.org 或者 apple.co/hiddenbrain。

If you're not yet a subscriber, please visit support.hiddenbrain.org or apple.co/hiddenbrain.

再次提醒，网址是 support.hiddenbrain.org。

Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org.

如果你用的是苹果设备，请前往 apple.co/hiddenbrain。

If you're using an Apple device, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain.

艾玛·莱文是芝加哥大学布斯商学院的一名心理学家。

Emma Levine is a psychologist at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

Emma，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏大脑》。

Emma, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

这真是一次特别愉快的对话。

It's been a blast.

你有没有遇到过这样的情况：明明是出于好意说了个善意的谎言，后来却感到后悔？

Have you had situations in your life where you feel you had to tell a benevolent lie but later came to regret it?

如果你愿意和《隐藏大脑》的听众分享一段个人经历，或者对这期节目有什么问题或想法，请找一个安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience or a question or comment about this episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

把文件发到 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

Email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

邮件主题请写：lies。

Use the subject line lies.

再次提醒，邮箱地址是 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

Again, that email address is feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

《隐藏的思维》由隐藏思维媒体制作。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media.

我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·夸雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥托姆·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。

Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury.

塔拉·布伊尔是我们执行制片人。

Tara Boyle is our executive producer.

我是《隐藏的思维》的执行编辑。

I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor.

感谢Atlassian旗下的Loom为《隐藏的思维》感知巡演提供赞助。

Thank you to Loom by Atlassian for sponsoring the Hidden Brain Perceptions Tour.

在巡演期间，观众们分享了他们收到过的最有价值的建议。

While on tour, audience members shared the best piece of advice they've ever received.

下面是一位名叫苏珊娜的听众在巴尔的摩巡演场次中分享的建议。

Here's a piece of advice that a listener named Suzanne shared at our tour stop in Baltimore.

我叫苏珊娜，来自华盛顿特区，我收到的最好的建议来自我出生在平壤的母亲，她特别喜欢用儒家格言说话。

I'm Suzanne from DC, and my best advice came from my Pyongyang born mother who loved to speak in Confucian proverbs.

她常对我们说：别往井里吐痰，因为你永远不知道什么时候还得喝这井里的水。

She often said to us, never spit in the well because you never know when you have to drink the water.

小时候她总这么说，我就纳闷：她到底想表达什么？

And she told this so many times as children, and I was like, what is she talking about?

但长大后我才真正明白，这句话其实是在讲，维系人际关系有多么重要。

But I really understood it as an adult, and I realized it really meant how important to maintain relationships with people.

所以，谢谢你们。

So, thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢苏珊娜分享这句忠告，也再次感谢Loom赞助本次《认知之旅》。

Thanks to Suzanne for sharing this bit of advice, and thanks again to Loom for sponsoring the Perceptions Tour.

Loom是一款以AI为核心的视频沟通工具，能帮助团队更高效地协作，无论是反馈意见、获取批准，还是传递背景信息。

Loom is AI first powered video communication that moves teams forward, whether you're sharing feedback, obtaining approvals, or setting context.

减少不必要的会议，让重要的会议更有成效。

Reduce unnecessary meetings and make the ones that matter more effective.

现在就去loom.com，让团队摆脱困境。

Unstuck your teams today at loom.com.

网址是loom.com。

That's loom.com.

这真是改变团队协作方式的工具。

It's a team changer.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔姆。

I'm Shankar Vedantam.

我们很快再见。

See you soon.