你比想象中更聪明

所以，我根本没告诉音乐系，你知道吗，我已经在你们学校的其他部门被拒了。

So I didn't I didn't bother to tell the music department, just so you know, I've already been rejected in another part of your school.

我没那么做。

I didn't do that.

怪这场风暴吧。

Blame the storm.

斯科特

Scott

他在心理上为成为一名歌剧学生做好了准备。

mentally prepared himself for the path of an opera student.

到了那时，也就是他的第二学期，他报名参加了一门心理学导论课程。

By then, his second semester, he signed up for an Intro to Psychology course.

这让我更加确认了我对心理学的热爱——你知道吗，当你遇到某样东西，你会觉得‘这就是我’，然后你离开它，再回来，发现它依然是‘我’，这说明了一些事情。

It reaffirmed how much I love psych like, just you know when you when you meet something, it you're like, this is me, and then you go away from it, and you come back to it, and still this is me, that's telling you something.

这可是很重要的信息。

Like, that's some that's important information.

我当时就想，我必须做这件事。

And I was like, I gotta do this.

他悄悄转到了心理学系。

He quietly transferred into the psychology department.

很快，他开始学习智力和智商测试的科学。

Soon, he was learning about intelligence and the science of IQ tests.

他从一开始就打算彻底推翻智商测试的体系，但他觉得必须先深入虎穴，才能将其摧毁。

His goal from the very start was to tear down the edifice of IQ testing, but he felt he had to go into the lion's den first in order to tear it down.

到20岁时，斯科特成功说服了剑桥大学，获得了在那里与一位最著名的智力科学研究者共事的机会。

By the time he was 20, Scott had talked his way into a spot at Cambridge University in England working with one of the most prominent researchers on the science of intelligence.

我既紧张又兴奋。

I was so nervous and excited.

我不确定自己是否足够聪明，能否胜任剑桥大学研究助理的工作。

I I didn't know if I was going to be able to to be as intelligent as I needed to be to be a research assistant at Cambridge University.

我几乎难以相信，自己真的有足够的智慧，配得上这个位置。

It was almost hard for me to fathom that I would legitimately be intelligent enough to be worthy of the situation.

我当时就想，这甚至就连你，斯科特，就算你有再多宏伟的幻想，这也太离谱了吧，你是认真的吗？

I was like, that's even you know, Scott, even with all your grandiose fantasies and everything, this is a little are you serious?

斯科特，你在干什么？

What are you doing, Scott?

你在干什么？

What are you doing?

但斯科特的导师尼克·麦金托什让他放松了下来。

But Scott's mentor, Nick McIntosh, set him at ease.

尼克简直再好不过了，无比支持我，他一定在我身上看到了什么。

Nick couldn't have been more wonderful, more supportive, and he must have seen something in me.

他看到了那一刻的我。

He he saw the person that I was in that moment.

斯科特没有告诉尼克自己关于智商测试的经历。

Scott didn't tell Nick about his own experience with IQ tests.

他仍然感到羞愧。

He was still ashamed.

我的意思是，他并不了解我的背景。

I mean, he didn't know my background.

顺便说一下，从我们相识到一起工作的所有时间里，我一直对这件事保密。

By the way, I kept all this a secret from him throughout our into all the times we worked together and everything.

你知道，他并没有看过我11岁时的智商测试分数。

You know, he didn't look at my IQ score when I was age 11.

他接纳了我，让我和他一起工作，我在那六个月里做了相当严谨的研究，作为本科生，这些研究后来成为我与他合作的硕士论文的基础。

And he he accepted me to work with him, and I did some pretty pretty rigorous research with him in that six months and as an undergrad that would then form the basis of my master's thesis with him.

在尼克的指导下，斯科特开始了解智商测试的深厚历史，从法国心理学家阿尔弗雷德·比奈开始。

Studying under Nick, Scott started to learn about the deep history of IQ tests, starting with Alfred Binet, a French psychologist.

1904年，阿尔弗雷德·比奈受法国政府委托，设计一项测试。

In nineteen o four, Alfred Binet was charged by the French government with devising a test.

这项计划的目的是为需要学业帮助的孩子分配资源。

The idea was to direct resources to kids who needed help in school.

阿尔弗雷德·比奈明确说明了这项测试能够和不能测量的内容。

Alfred Binet made it very clear what he thought the test could and could not measure.

他写过这一点。

He wrote that.

他说：‘我正在创建的并不是一个智力测试。’

He said, this is not an intelligence test that I'm creating.

这是一个我被委派用来区分哪些孩子需要更多辅导、哪些不需要的测试。

This is a test that I've been I've been given the task of differentiating those who would need more remediation and those who don't.

我们只关注孩子的当前需求，而不是他们的未来潜力。

We say only about the child's current needs, not his future potential.

他就是这么说的。

He said this.

比奈在手册中、在测试说明中，也就是最初的比奈手册里，就是这么说的。

Binet said this in in the manual, in the testing, the Binet manual, the original manual.

他就是这样说的。

He says things like that.

我们根本不会声称这个人具备什么能力。

We do not even begin to purport what this person is capable of.

这个故事最大的悲剧在于，他们最终在法国从未使用过他的测试。

The great tragedy of that story is that they ended up never using his tests in France.

相反，是美国人爱上了阿尔弗雷德·比奈的测试，并用它来测量这位法国心理学家曾警告过不要测量的东西。

Instead, it was the Americans who fell in love with Alfred Binet's test, And they used it to measure the very thing the French psychologist had warned against.

他们用它来评估智力。

They used it to assess intelligence.

这完全背离了比奈最初创建测试时所秉持的精神、哲学和原则。

It completely betrayed the spirit, the philosophy, the principles upon which Binet originally wanted to create the test.

彻底背叛了他。

Completely betrayed him.

在他临终前，他写了一篇论文说：美国人背叛了我。

And, on his deathbed, he wrote an essay saying, the Americans have betrayed me.

斯坦福大学的心理学家刘易斯·特曼就是那些在美国改造比奈测试的人之一。

The psychologist Louis Terman at Stanford was among those who transformed Beneath's test in The United States.

他没有把测试用作帮助有需要孩子的资源分配工具，而是将其变成了识别天才的筛选工具。

Instead of being used as a tool to direct resources to kids who needed help, he turned the test into a tracking tool to identify the gifted.

特曼对天赋非常感兴趣，他心中坚信天才只能从高智商人群中产生。

Terman was very, very interested in giftedness and really had this idea in his head that genius is only recruited from the line of high IQ.

在智力测试早期应用阶段，有很多人参与其中。

There's a lot of people involved in these the early days of of applying IQ tests.

这里真正重要的是它的应用部分。

It's it's really application part here.

我们讨论的是在美国用它来对人进行分类，这背离了原始理念。

We're talking about using it to sort people in America that betrayed the original philosophy.

他们将其改造成多项选择题，广泛应用于整个学校系统、军队，甚至用于筛选从埃利斯岛入境的人，用在了各种各样的场合。

They made it to multiple choice tests and gave gave it out to entire school systems, gave it out to in the army, gave it out to they they used it in lots of ways to send back people coming in from Ellis Island.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你太愚钝了，不配来美国。

Like, you know, you're too feeble minded to come to America.

你知道的？

You know?

别忘了，这些测试中很多都包含语言部分。

Never mind that a lot of these tests had verbal components to it.

你却在给那些英语不是母语的人做测试。

And you're giving people who English is not their first language.

你知道吗？这个测试原本确实有实际应用的潜力，但在早期被滥用到了令人难以置信的程度。

It's, you know, it's mind boggling in the extents to which this test, which did have some potential for real utility, how much it was abused in the earliest days of of use of those tests.

刘易斯·特曼借鉴了德国心理学家威廉·斯特恩的研究，推动了‘智力商数’这一概念的普及，也就是我们现在所说的智商。

Lewis Terman drew on the work of German psychologist William Stern and helped popularize the notion of something called an intelligence quotient, what we now know today as IQ.

从数学上讲，当时在美国很多人开始使用一个公式，我认为这反映了他们对智力的看法。

Mathematically, there's a formula that a lot of people started using in America, which I think is indicative of the way they thought about intelligence.

对吧？

Right?

要理解这个公式，就必须明白心理年龄和实际年龄之间的区别。

And in to in order to understand the formula, have to understand the difference between mental age and chronological age.

但他们基本上是在说，你可能只有13岁。

But they're basically saying, you could be 13.

这是你的生理年龄，而你的心理年龄可能低于或高于这个年龄。

That's your chronological age in terms of your biology, in terms of you your mental age can be below that or above it.

所以你的心理年龄可能是7岁，而你实际是13岁，那时他们称你为‘迟钝’。

So your mental age, you could be a 13 year old with a mental age of seven, and they called you backwards.

那就是他们当时用的术语。

That was the term they used.

如果是这种情况，你就被称作‘迟钝’。

You're backwards, if that's the case.

但如果你的心理年龄远超你的生理年龄，那你就是天才。

But you're gifted if your mental age far exceeds your chronological age.

所以麦克唐纳显然是智力领域最受尊敬的研究者之一，但他也 genuinely 开放、反应灵敏、充满好奇心，从不教条。

So Macintosh obviously was one of the most respected researchers in the field of intelligence, but he was also genuinely open minded and responsive and curious and not dogmatic.

你能描述一下这一点吗？

Can you just describe that?

某种程度上，你接近他时可能带着某种他并不知情的意图——你的真正目的是拆解智力和智力测试的整个体系，也许他根本不知道，你这个‘破坏者’刚刚来到剑桥大学。

You you in some ways were coming to him perhaps with an agenda that he didn't know, that your agenda was really to pull down the edifice of intelligence and intelligence testing, and maybe he didn't know that you were a saboteur who had just arrived at Cambridge University.

但请你描述一下他是如何工作的，以及这对你产生了怎样的影响，让你开始以新的方式思考你正在面对的问题。

But describe to me the way he worked and sort of the effect this had on you and the way you started thinking about the questions you were grappling with.

麦克因托什是一位传统的英国心理测量学家。

Macintosh was a traditional British psychometrician.

我的意思是，这又是他那种传统的纸笔智商测试方式。

I mean, that's, again, his traditional IQ as as you get on paper and pencil.

但他的个性、举止以及他的一切，都传递出纯粹的对科学的热爱。

But his personality and his demeanor and everything about him just signaled pure, pure love of science.

没有任何议程。

No agenda.

尼克·麦克因托什本人没有任何议程。

No agenda on Nick McIntosh's part.

他写了一本教材，叫《智商科学》，我记得读过，它几乎立刻让我成为了一名——我不会说信徒。

He wrote a textbook, The Science of IQ, which I remember reading, and it almost instantly made me a I won't say convert.

我不知道‘信徒’这个词是否准确，但它几乎立刻让我迷上了智商与智力的科学。

I don't know if that word quite applies, but it almost instantly seduced me into loving the science of IQ intelligence.

我忘了自己本该在进行这场讨伐。

And I forgot that I was supposed to be on this vendetta.

我忘记了。

I I forgot.

有一刻，尼克·麦克因托什问了一个简单的问题。

At one point, Nick McIntosh asked a simple question.

假设暂时不存在一种叫做智力的内在天赋。

Assume for a moment that there is no underlying innate ability called intelligence.

有些人擅长数学，有些人擅长阅读。

Some people are good at math, others are good at reading.

但他问，如果真是这样，为什么老师常常注意到，那些数学好的学生，阅读也往往很好？

But if that was the case, he asked, why is it teachers often notice that the same students who do well at math also do well at reading?

我的意思是，你读了麦克因托什的《智力的科学》，看到这个领域里这么多细微之处，真是非常有趣。

I mean, you read this book, the science of IQ by McIntosh, it's just so interesting to see all the little nuances of the field.

有些事情，我根本没想到竟然可能是真的。

Things like things I just didn't dawn on me could be true.

我之前有各种各样的意识形态和想法，比如根本不存在一般性智力，或者智商在人生中并不重要。

I had all these, like, ideologies and thoughts that that well, there's no such thing as general intelligence or that IQ doesn't matter in life.

你知道的。

You know?

而当我读这本教科书时，我发现情况本不必如此，但非常有趣的是，一个人在非语言智商测试中的得分，竟然能与他在语言测试中的得分高度相关。

And then here I am in reading in this textbook, generally didn't have to be this way, but it's very curious that someone's score on a nonverbal IQ test could correlate so highly with someone's score on a verbal.

接着他会问一些问题，比如：词汇量和心理旋转图像这类认知过程之间，究竟有什么共同之处呢？

And then he would ask questions like, what is it about vocabulary that could be in common in terms of cognitive processes than rotating an image in the mind?

词汇量和心理旋转图像这类认知过程有什么共同点？

What does vocabulary have in common with cognitive processes like rotating an image in the mind?

如果语言能力和空间能力只是可以通过练习获得的技能，那为什么擅长其中一项的孩子往往也擅长另一项呢？这难道不奇怪吗？

If verbal skills and spatial skills were just that, skills that could be learned with practice, wasn't it odd that the kids who were good at one were often also good at the other?

斯科特对这类问题产生了浓厚的兴趣。

Scott found himself intrigued by questions like this.

我的好奇心完全被激发了，你知道的，当我来到剑桥时，我开始真正地和他一起进行传统的、严肃的实验研究。

My curiosity just took over, you know, and I and I started actually doing really traditional serious experimental research with him when I got there to Cambridge.

还有一个方面，尼克·麦金托什开始改变斯科特对智商测试的既有看法。

There was a second area where Nick McIntosh started to sway Scott's preexisting views about IQ tests.

有一件事让我觉得非常着迷，我开始去听尼克·麦金托什的讲座，他展示的数据表明，智商与人生的诸多结果之间存在关联。

Something that that I found fascinating, and I was starting to go to Nick McIntosh's lectures, he did present data showing the correlation between IQ and lots of outcomes in life.

那段时间，我因为童年经历而感到有些被触动。

And that was a time I did feel a little triggered based on my childhood.

我觉得这非常、非常有趣，几乎像是一种道德困境。

And I found it very, very interesting and almost a moral quandary.

他展示的，基本上就是我16岁时在图书馆看到的那张表格。

He presented, like, basically the same table I saw when I was 16 and said that in the library.

他在剑桥大学的讲座中展示了不同智商区间的人在人生中通常会有的表现。

He presented that in his lecture at University of Cambridge showing the different IQ bands and what they tend to do in their life.

天哪。

Like, oh my gosh.

这真的吗？

This really?

这张图表又是这个？

This chart again?

我一下子被拉回到了童年。

I kind of, like, snapped back to my childhood.

我当时想，哇。

And I was like, woah.

我该怎么办？

What do I do?

因为这是科学。

Because this is the science.

这是数据。

This is the data.

斯科特涉足智商测试这个险境，结果并没有如他所料。

Scott's foray into the lion's den of IQ testing hadn't turned out the way he'd expected.

我们回来后，看看斯科特是如何应对他的道德困境的。

When we come back, how Scott responded to his moral quandary.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

听完这一集后，您对智力还有后续问题吗？

Do you have follow-up questions about intelligence after listening to this episode?

也许您有个人经历，关于您年轻时潜力是如何被评估的。

Maybe you have a personal story about how your potential was assessed when you were young.

如果您愿意与《隐藏的思维》的听众分享您的问题或故事，请用手机录制一段语音备忘录。

If you'd be willing to share your question or story with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

然后将文件发送到我们的邮箱：feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

Then email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

邮件主题请写：intelligence。

Use the subject line intelligence.

再次提醒您的邮箱地址：feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

That email address again, feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

在职业生涯早期，智力研究者斯科特·巴里·考夫曼决心拆解智商测试的体系。

Early in his career, intelligence researcher Scott Barry Kaufman set out to tear down the edifice of IQ testing.

他认为智商测试严重限制了自己年轻时的发展前景。

He felt it had greatly limited his own prospects as a young person.

但后来，他却被智商测试背后的大量科学证据所说服。

But then he found himself convinced by much of the science behind IQ.

这让他陷入了一个困境。

It left him with a quandary.

他该相信自己对智商测试的亲身经历，还是该相信数据？

Should he trust his own experience with IQ tests or should he trust the data?

在完成本科学业并继续攻读认知心理学博士学位时，斯科特逐渐意识到，真正的问题不在于智商测试的指标是否错误，而在于它是否不够全面。

As he finished his undergraduate studies and went on to get a PhD in cognitive psychology, Scott came to feel that the real question was not whether the signs of IQ was wrong, but whether it was incomplete.

智商测试从未考察过一个人对自己所做事情的投入程度。

One thing that IQ tests hadn't looked at was how much a person cared about what they were doing.

当你去参加智商测试时，它往往与你个人生活的背景完全脱节。

When you go take an IQ test, it tends to be divorced entirely from your the context of your own life.

这正是设计的初衷。

That's by design.

他们想看看你在抽象推理方面有多出色，而这种能力被认为是智力的最高体现。

They wanna see how good are you at abstract reasoning, and that's thought to be the height of intelligence.

然而，生活中的大部分内容都无法脱离我们的现实生活而孤立存在。

However, so much of life is not decontextualized from our life.

事实上，我们生活的绝大部分都是如此。

In fact, most of our life.

当我们对某些事情感到兴奋时，我们的注意力系统就会被导向这些事情。

We are excited about when we're excited about certain things, we are our attentional system is directed towards it.

这种参与感对于我们理解一个人的潜力至关重要。

This engagement aspect is absolutely essential to our understanding of someone's potential.

我们越投入一件事，就越能学到东西。

The more we engage in something, we learn.

而我们学得越多，就越想继续投入其中。

And the more that we learn something, the more it makes us want to engage in something.

因为一旦我们开始擅长某件事，就会投入更多的时间和精力。

Because once we start becoming good at something, then we start to invest more of our time and energy into it.

所以这是一个非常强大的良性循环。

So it's a very strong dynamic cycle.

教师、经理和教练们都能证明斯科特的这一见解。

Teachers, managers, and coaches can testify to Scott's insight.

天赋很重要，但有时热情和动力更重要。

Talent matters, but sometimes passion and drive matter more.

除了深度参与，创造力是IQ测试所忽视的另一项影响表现的关键因素。

Along with deep engagement, creativity is another driver of performance that is overlooked by IQ tests.

事实上，研究人员发现，智力和创造力之间可能存在一种反比关系。

In fact, researchers have found that there can be an inverse relationship between intelligence and creativity.

当你从神经科学的角度看创造力时，那些最具想象力的人，其大脑中被称为前额叶皮层的灰质体积往往会减少。

When you look at the neuroscience of creativity, those who have the most imaginative sort of ideas are the kind of brains that show reduction of gray volume in what's called the prefrontal cortex.

所以有时你会发现，那些看起来最不聪明的大脑，实际上反而最具创造力。

So sometimes you actually find that that some of the brains that look the least intelligent are actually the most creative.

这正是我想表达的观点。

That's the point I'm trying to make here.

因此，这在很大程度上取决于你是否能暂时放下所有的既有专业知识，甚至暂时搁置你的批判性思维能力，从而更好地进行联想式思考。

So it depends a lot on, your ability to sometimes put aside all the prior expertise you have, maybe even put aside your critical thinking facilities and be able to really have more associative processes.

我喜欢说，保持开放的心态非常重要，但也不能开放到让大脑掉出来。

I like to say it's really important to be really open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out.

所以我认为智力很重要。

So that's why I think intelligence is important.

我不是说智力不重要，但它取决于你所创造的东西。

I'm not saying intelligence isn't important, but it depends on the thing that you're creating.

我实际上发表过一篇论文，探讨了艺术与科学之间的区别，以及它们对智商的预测作用，还有智商在多大程度上能预测这些领域的发展。

I actually published a paper showing the distinction between the arts and the sciences and and its prediction of IQ, and and the extent to which IQ predicts these things.

你发现，智商与人生中的艺术创造力成就之间没有相关性。

And you find IQ had a zero correlation with artistic creative achievement in life.

那你认为，为什么在艺术领域，智商和成果之间没有关联呢？

And why do you think it is that in artistic fields, you're not seeing a connection between IQ and and outcomes?

如果你是一位画家、诗人或音乐家，你认为这里发生了什么？

What do you think is happening there if you're a painter or a poet or a musician?

与艺术相关的一个重要认知过程被称为潜伏抑制，而艺术家的潜伏抑制水平通常更低。

One important cognitive process that's associated with arts is what's called latent inhibition, and it's particularly reduced to latent inhibition.

通常，我们会根据以往的经验，将世界上的事物标记为与当前问题相关或不相关。

So usually, we tend to see the world and tag things as relevant or irrelevant to a problem we're working on based on our prior expectations.

但艺术家特别擅长用全新的眼光看待事物。

But people in the arts are really good at constantly seeing things with fresh eyes.

他们总是善于放下先入为主的观念，努力在当下发现意义。

They're constantly good at putting aside their prior preconceptions and trying to find meaning in the here and now.

而且，我本人发表过一些论文，还有其他研究也表明，那些潜伏性抑制较低的人，在艺术创造力成就方面得分更高。

And and we've I've, you know, published papers, there are other papers showing that that people who tend to have a reduced lean inhibition, reduced, tend to score higher in the arts creative achievement domain.

此外，这也与开放性人格特质相关。

And, also, it's correlated with openness to experience as well.

开放性人格特质包括对美学的开放、对美的开放，以及对情绪的开放。

The personality trait, openness to experience, openness to aesthetics, openness to beauty, and also emotions.

能够触及你丰富的情感世界，而不把某些情绪视为禁区。

Being able to tap into the rich, rich tapestry of your emotions and not view some of your emotions as off limits.

比如，总认为自己必须时刻保持快乐，但实际上，我会接受自己正在经历的抑郁，并将其作为创造力的素材。

Like, saying you always have to be happy all the time, but actually saying, you know, I'm actually gonna take this depression I'm going through and use that as fodder for creativity.

你还曾说过，智商测试无法全面反映人类的潜能，因为它们只关注显性的、有意识的、受控的思维形式。

You've also said that IQ tests fail to capture the full range of human potential in that they focus on the explicit, the conscious, the controlled forms of thinking.

这遗漏了哪些方面呢，斯科特？

What does this leave out, Scott?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我在我博士论文中研究过一个具体概念，叫做内隐学习，指的是我们自动、无意识地学习世界中的概率性规则结构的能力。

Well, one specific thing I did study in my my dissertation is this idea called implicit learning, which is our ability to learn the probabilistic rule structure of the world automatically and implicitly without our level of awareness.

这具有深远的意义。

This is deep implications.

所以，我说的正是你节目主题的核心。

So, I mean, so you talk about the theme of your show right here.

我们正在探讨的内容非常一致。

We're getting to this is very, very congruent.

想想看，要发展社交智慧需要什么？

I mean, think about what is required to develop social intelligence.

有时候人们微笑，是真心的。

Sometimes when people smile, they mean this.

但有时候并不是。

Sometimes they don't.

有时候人们的眼神是这样的，但有时候也不是。

Sometimes when people's eyes are like this, sometimes they don't.

你知道，这个世界是混乱的。

You know, the world is messy.

从认知科学家的角度来看，我设计了一些任务来衡量人们在学习事物概率结构方面的能力差异。

And from a cognitive scientist lens, I I develop tasks to measure people differences in people's ability to learn about the probabilistic structure of something.

我们发现，这种能力与智商几乎完全不相关。

And, we have found that's virtually uncorrelated, wholly uncorrelated with IQ.

有些人能参加智商测试，在我们的实验中给出A、C、B、D这样的答案，获得极高的智商分数，但往往恰恰是那些无法进行隐性学习的人。

People that can go into an IQ testing, one of our sessions, be like A, C, B, D, and get like an extremely off the charts IQ, oftentimes the ones that are not learning implicitly.

解谜涉及逻辑和分析。

Solving puzzles involves logic and analysis.

但逻辑无法帮助你在拥挤的房间里读懂他人的表情。

But logic cannot help you read someone's expression in a crowded room.

这需要通常是在无意识中习得的认知能力。

That requires cognitive skills that are often learned unconsciously.

斯科特不仅仅是说，智商测试所测量的认知能力，与我们感知现实世界中非明文模式和关系的能力不同。

Scott is not merely saying that the cognitive ability that IQ tests measure is different than the abilities that allow us to apprehend unwritten patterns and relationships in the real world.

他说，有时候这些不同的认知能力可能会相互牺牲。

He's saying that sometimes these different cognitive abilities might come at the expense of each other.

就像跷跷板一样。

It's like a seesaw.

有时候，一边的困难会以另一种方式让你获得提升。

Sometimes the thing on one side causing you challenges bring brings you up in another way.

他特别在所谓的双重特殊儿童身上看到这一点。

He sees this especially among so called two e kids.

双重特殊指的是你生活中同时存在深刻的困难或挑战，以及深刻的天赋、才能或能力。

Two e stands for twice exceptional, where you have a profound extraordinary difficulty or challenge in your life, and you also have a profound gift or talent or ability.

但确实有些人身上同时拥有深刻的困难和深刻的天赋与才能。

But there are there are people that really do have profound difficulties and profound gifts and talents in one body.

在某种程度上，这复杂化了我们对人的看法。

And in some ways, it complicates the notion of sort of how we think about people.

对吧？

Right?

我们总认为聪明的人一直聪明，愚钝的人一直愚钝。

We think about smart people as always being smart, dull people always being dull.

你用‘双例外’这个标签，某种程度上就是在说：不完全是这样。

And what you're doing partly with sort of this two e label is basically saying, no.

人的复杂性远不止如此。

People are more complicated than that.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我记得从六年级开始，当听到广播说‘天才儿童到指定教室’时，斯科特就注意到了。

I saw that just going all the way back to the sixth grade Scott who heard the announcement on the, you know, the speaker, gifted kids go to their room.

我内心深处觉得，人类远比我们这样简单分类和排序要复杂得多。

I I sensed in my gut there's something much more complicated about humans than the way that we're dividing and sorting people here.

我至今仍坚信这一点，而且在许多隐秘的层面，我们的社会并未明确承认这些复杂性。

And I still believe it, and I believe it in so many ways, like hidden ways that we don't explicitly acknowledge in our society.

旧有的体系，尤其是在教育系统中，但你也能在组织和招聘实践中看到类似现象。

Old systems, especially in an education system, but you also see it in organizations and hiring practices.

这件事影响深远。

It goes deep, this stuff.

我们对人类潜能的许多假设其实已经过时且完全错误。

A lot of these assumptions we have about human potential that are really outdated and just wrong.

贯穿整个对话、让我印象最深的故事，是你跟我讲过的那位学校心理学家的事。他看了我的智商测试结果，指着智力分布的正态曲线，从天才那一端开始，一次次把铅笔往左移，再往左，再往左。

So the story that has stuck with me, I think, through this whole episode is the one that you told me about the school psychologist who looked at your IQ test and showed you where you fell on the bell curve of intelligence and started with the gifted and moved the pencil over and over and over to the left, and then to the left, and then more to the left.

那一刻，以各种方式深深打击了我。

That moment was really crushing for you in all kinds of ways.

但几年前，我经历了一件非凡的事。

But some years ago, you had an extraordinary experience.

我在费城的一个公园里散步，看到一位老人坐在长椅上。

You were walking in a park in Philadelphia, and you came by an elderly man sitting on a park bench.

给我描述一下当时的场景，讲讲那个故事吧，斯科特。

Set the scene for me and tell me that story, Scott.

我当时真的很开心。

I was really happy.

我特别兴奋。

I was pumped.

我刚做完一次很棒的力量训练。

I just had a nice weightlifting session.

我正在跑步，经过长椅上一位男士时，突然感到胃里一阵恐惧。

And I'm running, and I cross a man on a bench, and I feel something in my gut, like like dread.

我心里想，我为什么会有这种恐惧感？

Like, what I'm like, why am I feeling dread?

我不认识这个人，我回头看了看，然后突然明白了。

I don't know this like, I look back at the person, and then it hits me.

那就是高中时那个在餐巾纸上画出正态分布曲线的心理学家，他当时根本没想到，正是这件事激励我进入了这个领域。

That's the school psychologist from high school who drew the bell curve on the napkin and basically inspired me to go into this field, not in way that he would have ever thought.

但我心想，那就是他。

But I'm like, that's him.

他老了，但我认出了他。

He's older, but I recognize him.

这确实让我陷入了一个困境：我该怎么做？要不要去跟他打招呼？

And it it did create a bit of a dilemma in me, which is like, what do I do I approach him?

我要不要说声嗨？

Do I say hi?

我该做什么？

Do I what?

我要不要给他一拳？

Do I sock him in the face?

我该怎么办？

What do I do?

带着极大的忐忑和剧烈的心跳，我走到公园长椅上的他身边，说：嗨。

And with a lot of trepidation and my heart beating very fast, I approached him on the park bench, and I said, hey.

你介意我稍微坐在你旁边吗？

Do you mind if I if I just sit next to you for a second?

我想跟你说件事。

I wanna tell you something.

他回答说：当然可以。

And he's like, sure.

没问题。

No problem.

没问题。

No problem.

然后我坐了下来。

And I sat down.

我说：嘿。

I said, hey.

我曾经是你的学生，你改变了我的人生。

I was a was a student of yours, and you you changed my life.

他回答说：哦，是的。

And and he he said, oh, yeah.

大概是用一种满不在乎的语气说的。

By in a sort of screw you sort of way probably.

他这么说了。

He said that.

你知道的，我笑了。

And, you know, I laughed.

我说，你知道的，你确实做到了。

And I said, well, you know, you just you you did.

我，你知道的，我现在是个心理学家了。

I I did you you know, I'm a psychologist now.

我并没有觉得有必要冲他大喊或者给他讲整个故事。

And and I I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't feel the need to yell at him or tell him the whole story.

但当我告诉他我现在是个心理学家时，他说了件很有趣的事。

But he said something very interesting to me when I told him I'm a psychologist now.

他说，哦，那挺有意思的。

He said he said, oh, that's he's like, well, that's interesting.

我现在正在辅导一个智商很低的孩子。

I'm actually tutoring a kid right now who really low IQ.

智商真的很低，根本就不是个聪明人。

Really low IQ is really not the sharpest tool in the shed.

嗯，我有点生气，但我让自己冷静下来了。

Well, my blood boiled a bit, and I I calmed myself down.

我只是说，也许你可以更深入地看待，不要只盯着智商，而是试着从更全面的角度去了解他，不要只凭某一个方面就下判断。

I just said, maybe you could just keep looking deeper at beyond the IQ into maybe think about him in a bit of a broader way and and where you look at the totality of him, not a particular slice of him when you're making that kind of judgment call.

他同意了。

And, he he agreed.

我的意思是，他同意了。

I mean, he he agreed.

值得一提的是，他说，这话说得有道理。

To his credit, he he's like, that's a good point.

就在那一刻，我突然意识到，你知道吗？

And I just kind of realized in that moment, like, you know what?

他其实并不坏。

Like, he's not evil.

他是个普通人。

He's human.

当时他可能已经尽其所能，依据他所知道的和接受的训练行事。

He was probably doing the best that he could at the time in what he knew and how he was trained.

而且即使到现在，他也在尽力帮助这个孩子。

And and he and even now, he was doing the best he can to try to help this kid.

我能做的最好的事，不是冲他大喊大叫，也不是讲我的故事，而是告诉他关于‘双重特殊’这个领域，告诉他可能有一些资源可以参考。

And the best I could do is not yell at him or tell him my story, but to just tell him about the field of twice exceptional and to tell him about, well, maybe here's some resources.

所以我根据我所做的研究，向他提供了一些帮助这个孩子的资源。

So I offered him some resources to help this kid based on the research, I've done.

真希望有人曾经告诉他这些。

I wish someone told him that.

当我上十一年级的时候，他或许会对我不一样。

And when I was in eleventh grade, maybe he would have treated me differently.

但话说回来，如果他当时对我态度不同，也许我就不会处于那个位置，无法在长椅上对他讲这些了。

But then again, if he treated me differently, maybe I wouldn't have been in the position to ever even be that park bench to tell him that.

所以这一切都太奇怪了。

So it's all very weird.

我不知道。

I don't know.

有时候，生活就是得顺其自然。

Life sometimes, you just gotta go with it.

心理学家斯科特·巴里·考夫曼研究人类潜能的科学。

Psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman studies the science of human potential.

他是《超越自我：克服受害者心态，赋能自己，实现全部潜能》一书的作者。

He's the author of Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential.

斯科特，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的思维》。

Scott, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这太棒了。

This is wonderful.

你对斯科特·巴里·考夫曼有什么后续问题，或者与本集相关的故事吗？

Do you have a follow-up question for Scott Barry Kaufman or a story related to this episode?

如果你愿意与《隐藏的思维》的听众分享你的问题或故事，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you'd be willing to share your question or story with a Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

然后将文件发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Then email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：intelligence。

Use the subject line intelligence.

再次提醒，邮箱地址是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

That email address again, feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

广告后，那些婚姻幸福长达四十年、五十年甚至六十年的伴侣，他们知道些什么是我们所不知道的？

After the break, what do couples who've been happily married for forty, fifty, or sixty years know that the rest of us don't?

在退休后，我们定下一条家规：无论谁在做任何事，都可以随心所欲地做。

In our retirement, we have come up with a house rule that states he or she who is doing any task can do it any damn way they want.

听众们分享了他们维系关系的方法，心理学家詹姆斯·科多瓦重返节目，为我们带来最新一期的‘为您解答疑问’。

Listeners share how they make their relationships work, and psychologist James Cordova returns to the show in our latest installment of Your Questions Answered.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

每一代人都有其标志性的情侣组合。

Every generation has its power couples.

小说家格特鲁德·斯坦和她的伴侣爱丽丝·B。

The novelist Gertrude Stein and her partner Alice B.

塔克雷斯夫妇无疑是这样一对伴侣。

Talkless were arguably one such couple.

在二十世纪早期，他们的巴黎公寓是繁荣的文学与艺术圈的中心，吸引了欧内斯特·海明威、F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德和巴勃罗·毕加索等人。

In the early part of the twentieth century, their Paris apartment was the center of a thriving literary and artistic scene attracting the likes of Ernest Hemingway, f Scott Fitzgerald, and Pablo Picasso.

但这并不意味着他们之间的一切都完美无缺。

But that doesn't mean everything was perfect between them.

当爱丽丝得知格特鲁德在遇见她之前曾有过一段恋情时，她们的关系陷入了低谷。

Their relationship hit a rough patch when Alice learned that Gertrude had had a love affair before she met Alice.

作家弗朗西斯卡·韦伊在她的著作《来世》中描述了这一发现。

The writer Francesca Way describes this revelation in her book An Afterlife.

她写道：托奎林将这一过往纠葛的揭露视为对他们共同核心共识的背叛——那就是彼此之间绝不隐瞒任何秘密。

Writes: Tocquelyn saw the discovery of this past entanglement as a betrayal of their shared and fundamental understanding, that there would be no secrets between them.

对此，爱丽丝后来对一位采访者表示，她折磨了格特鲁德一年半之久。

In response, Alice later told an interviewer, she tormented Gertrude for a year and a half.

她销毁了格特鲁德前恋人写给她的所有信件。

She destroyed all of the letters Gertrude's former lover had sent to her.

在一次前往美国的旅行中，她还试图阻止格特鲁德的美国朋友与她见面。

And on a trip to The US, she tried to keep Gertrude's American friends from seeing her.

最终，格特鲁德·斯坦不得不告诉她的伴侣，如果她不停止，她们的关系就结束了。

Eventually, Gertrude Stein had to tell her partner that if she didn't stop, their relationship was over.

爱丽丝的选择：要么与伴侣的过去和解，要么分手。

Alice's choice: either make peace with her partner's past or split up.

她不必喜欢格特鲁德曾经爱过别人，但她必须接受这一点。

She didn't have to like that Gertrude had loved someone else, but she had to accept it.

接受我们的伴侣并不总是容易的，正如爱丽丝·B。

Accepting our partners isn't always easy, as Alice B.

托克拉斯所发现的那样。

Talkless discovered.

对我们许多人来说，改变伴侣身上我们不喜欢之处的冲动几乎是无法抗拒的。

For many of us, the impulse to alter things we dislike about our partners is irresistible.

正如詹姆斯·科瓦达在最近几期《隐藏的脑》节目中与我们讨论的那样，接纳是建立更深层、更有意义联系的关键。

As James Cordova discussed with us in a series of recent Hidden Brain episodes, acceptance is essential to unlocking deeper, more meaningful connections.

如果你错过了那些节目，可以在本播客的订阅源中找到它们。

If you missed those episodes, you can find them in this podcast feed.

它们的标题分别是《爱情2.0：如何修复你的婚姻（上）》和《爱情2.0：如何修复你的婚姻（下）》。

They are titled Love two point o, How to fix your marriage part one, and Love two point o, How to fix your marriage part two.

今天，科多瓦重返《隐藏的思维》，回应听众关于他们关系的想法、故事和问题。

Today, Cordova returns to Hidden Brain to respond to listeners' thoughts, stories, and questions about their relationships.

这是我们受欢迎的栏目‘你的问题解答’的最新一期。

It's the latest installment of our popular segment, your questions answered.

詹姆斯·科多瓦，欢迎再次来到《隐藏的思维》。

James Cordova, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你，尚卡尔。

Thank you so much, Shankar.

很高兴能来到这里。

It's great to be here.

詹姆斯，我们在之前的对话中讨论过，我们关系中的有些问题是可以解决的，有些则不行。

James, one of the things we discussed in our earlier conversations was the fact that some problems in our relationships are fixable and some are not.

比如决定睡哪一边床，这可能是个简单的问题。

So deciding which side of the bed to sleep on, that might be an easy problem.

决定住在城市还是郊区，而伴侣们想要不同的东西，你把这些称为中级问题。

Deciding whether to live in the city or the suburbs where partners want different things, you call these mezzanine level problems.

然后还有一类你称为永久性问题的问题。

Then there are the set of problems you call perpetual issues.

是什么让永久性问题与其他问题不同呢，詹姆斯？

What makes perpetual issues different from other problems, James?

詹姆斯？

James?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

让永久性问题与众不同的特点是，它们源于伴侣之间自然存在的根本差异。

The characteristic that makes perpetual issues different is that they are rising out of naturally occurring fundamental differences between two partners.

比如性格差异，举个例子，内向和外向；或者对金钱不同的情感态度，比如挥霍型与储蓄型的金钱观。

So these are things like personality differences, say, for example, introvert and extrovert, different emotional relationships with money, like a spender relationship with money versus a saver relationship with money.

所以这些差异是我们本性的一部分。

So they're they're part of how we're built.

正因为这些差异是我们身份的根本，试图改变对方的倾向往往会引发紧张。

And because it's sort of fundamental to who we are, that agenda to try to change each other tends to create tension.

换句话说，你的意思是，持久性问题触及的是人们真正无法改变或妥协的事情。

In other words, what you're saying is perpetual issues get at things that people really cannot change or accommodate.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Right.

它们往往是当我们已经改变了所有能改变的事情后，剩下的那些问题。

And they tend to be the things that are left when we've changed everything that we can.

你说接受是解决持久性问题的办法。

You say that acceptance is the solution to perpetual issues.

谈谈这个观点。

Talk about this idea.

詹姆斯，你这里的‘接受’是什么意思？

What do you mean by acceptance here, James?

接受就是放下试图改变对方以及试图在这些事情上改变自己的努力，尽管我们希望它们能不一样，但艰难的经历已经教会了我们：这些其实不会改变。

So acceptance is letting go of our efforts to change the other person and our efforts to change ourselves in relation to those things that even though we wish they were otherwise, hard experience has sort of taught us, oh, this actually isn't gonna change.

我们已经尽力了，但事实证明它们对这些努力具有韧性。

We gave it the good old college try, and it has shown itself as resilient to that.

我认为有些人听到‘接受’这个词，会以为你在建议屈服或投降。

I think some people hear the term acceptance and think that means that you are suggesting capitulation or rolling over.

你谈到在与伴侣互动时培养柔软的前部和坚强的后背的重要性。

You talk about the importance of developing a soft front and a strong back when we're engaging with our partners.

你所说的这个术语是什么意思？

What do you mean by that term?

‘柔软的前部，坚强的后背’是一种与对方相处的方式，其中柔软的前部其实就是对伴侣的同理心。

So, soft front, strong back is a way of of moving in relation to each other, where the soft front is is really it's just empathy for our partner.

我知道你的立场。

You know, I know where you're coming from.

我明白。

I get it.

我能感受到，而且我在意。

I can feel it, and I care.

这就是柔软的前部。

That's the soft front.

而坚强的后背则是对自己保持同理心、善待自己、连接自己的福祉，不因对方的最佳利益而放弃自我。

And the strong back is really, you know, empathy for ourselves, compassion for ourselves, connection to our own well-being, and not abandoning that in relation to what is, best for our partner.

那么，我们如何在不放弃对自己最有利的事物的前提下，以同理心去面对伴侣呢？

So how can we meet our partner with empathy without abandoning the things that are best for ourselves?

我们之前讨论过有些人像仙人掌，有些人像蕨类植物。

We talked in our earlier conversations about people who are cactuses and people who are ferns.

如果你是蕨类植物，你渴望大量水分，因此需要很多情感连接。

If you're a fern, you crave a lot of water, so you want a lot of emotional connection.

如果你是仙人掌，你渴望的水分较少，更需要独处的时间来为自己充电。

If you're a cactus, you crave less water and need more time to yourself to maybe charge your own batteries.

我们收到了一位名叫艾米丽的听众关于这个问题的留言。

Here's a message we received on that front from a listener named Emily.

她说她和丈夫已经结婚十二年了，在此之前已经交往了很多年。

She says that she and her husband have been married for twelve years and were together for many years before that.

在很多方面，我们非常契合，但我们意识到我们在情感上的兼容性存在问题。

In many ways, we're super compatible, But we're realizing our emotional compatibility is off.

我渴望分享我所有的感受，把它们全部倾诉给他，因为把情绪憋在心里会让我焦虑和不安。

I desire to share all of my feelings and dump them all out on him because keeping in my feelings makes me anxious and upset.

而他则不希望承受这样的情感负担，很容易被这种情绪压垮。

Whereas he desires to not have that emotional overload and becomes very overwhelmed by it easily.

因此，我们在挣扎如何在情感需求不一致的情况下满足彼此的情感需要。

And so we're struggling with how do we get our emotional needs met with emotions that don't align.

我们选择继续在一起，并且正在通过心理咨询师寻求帮助。

We have chosen to stay together and are, you know, seeking support through a therapist.

我们会继续选择在一起，因为彼此之间有很多爱和深厚的历史。

And we will continue to choose to stay together because there is a lot of love and a lot of history.

我能听出来艾米丽在这里很挣扎，詹姆斯。

I can hear how Emily is struggling here, James.

显然，你并不了解这段关系的所有细节，但你对艾米丽和她丈夫有什么建议吗？

Obviously, you don't know all the particulars of this relationship, but what advice would you have for Emily and her husband?

这在某种程度上是伴侣之间一种非常典型的冲突模式，某种程度上也是一种仙人掌与蕨类植物般的相处模式。

It's such a, in some ways, classic conflict of friction between partners, and in some ways, it is that cactus fern kind of pattern.

你知道，艾米丽所指出的是，她希望回顾一天中的点点滴滴，分享那些艰难的部分。

You know, what Emily is pointing at is for her going back over the contents of the day, sharing the hard things.

就像她不想独自一人在内心和情感中承受这些。

Like like, she doesn't want to be alone in her own head and in her own heart with that.

所以这本质上是一种寻求连接的尝试，只是想有人陪伴，邀请一个朋友进入她的内心空间。

So it really is a bid for connection and to just have some some companionship to invite a friend into that space with her.

这并不是一种罕见的与他人建立联系的方式。

And that's not at all an uncommon way to seek connection with others.

对她丈夫来说，而这常常带有性别色彩。

For her husband and this is often gendered in this way.

比如，当我结束了一天，处理完所有艰难的事情，并且已经找到一个地方把内心的不适感暂时搁置时，再重新回顾这些事，就像是再次把自己暴露在那种感受中。

Like, when I'm done at the end of my day with all the hard things that have gone on and I found a place to sort of, put all of my discomfort internally, going over it again is like reexposing ourselves to it.

这就像是我已经把那份负面情绪放下了，现在你却邀请我重新经历它。

It's like I already put that bit of toxicity away, and it can feel like, oh, now you're inviting me to relive it.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们男性有时就是这样学会避免再次感受那种不适的。

And so, you know, it's a way that we sort of learn as men sometimes to avoid feeling that discomfort, you know, a second time.

而我们常常忽略的是，我们没有给自己机会去体验那种从这种分享中真正产生的连接感。

And I think what we can miss is we don't give ourselves the opportunity to have the experience of actually feeling the connection that can emerge from that.

所以，我想我会给他们的建议是，以这种仙人掌和蕨类植物的方式，去理解对方需要感受到：我在乎你对这件事的体验。

And so, you know, I guess the advice that I would give is for each of them in that cactus fern way to recognize what the other person needs to feel like I care about the way that you experience this.

对吧？

Right?

因此，艾米丽需要明白，对她丈夫来说，重新回到那些被体验为情感上艰难的话题，总是会稍微困难一些，但他确实能做到。

So for Emily to be able to understand that it's just always gonna be a little bit harder for her husband to step back into, you know, talking about things that are experienced as emotionally hard, he can do it.

但重要的是要意识到这对你来说更困难一些，并表达出感激之情，我知道我让你做的是你并不自然擅长的事。

But but to care that it's a little bit more challenging and to just express appreciation that, you know, I know I'm asking you to do something that doesn't come naturally to you.

而他的丈夫也要明白并重视：这是我爱你最根本的方式之一。

And for her husband to know and to care, like, this is one of the most fundamental ways that I can love you.

这是我确保你得到爱与关怀、得到滋养你的水分的最根本方式之一。

This is one of the most fundamental ways that I can make sure that you're getting the love and care, the water that sustains you.

如果我拒绝这么做，即使你渴望与我亲近、建立联系，你的根也会干枯。

And if I if I refuse to do that, even if you want to be close and connected to me, your roots are just gonna dry out.

对吧？

Right?

这并不是一种可以选择的行为。

Like, it's not it's not choiceful.

这就像照顾一株植物一样。

It's very much is like taking care of a plant.

如果我不给它足够的水，它就会死。

If I'm not if I don't water it enough, it is gonna die.

在关系中，经常发生的情况是，伴侣们通过指责来表达自己的需求。

One of the things that often happens in relationships is that partners express their needs through accusations.

你谈到过，在不提出指责的情况下强调痛苦的重要性。

You talk about the importance of emphasizing pain without bringing up accusations.

詹姆斯，你建议像艾米丽和她丈夫这样的夫妻该如何做到这一点呢？

How would you suggest a couple like Emily and her husband do this, James?

你知道，对我来说，关键在于以同理心和富有同情心的理解来开启对话，理解对方的立场。

You know, it's you know, for me, the the key is to to lead with, empathy and compassionate understanding for where the other person is coming from.

你知道，指责往往源于我们内心真诚的愿望，即想找到我们双方所经历痛苦的原因。

You know, the the accusation is often it's it's driven by our very good hearted desire to find a cause for the suffering that we're both experiencing.

从心理学角度来说，我们的第一反应是：你坐在我面前。

And psychologically, our first instinct is, well, you're sitting in front of me.

你一定是原因，问题一定出在你身上。

You must you must be the cause, and it must be inside of you.

对吧？

Right?

所以这其实只是良好的问题解决，但那种倾向于指责的做法实际上从不会让我们取得任何进展。

So it's just good problem solving, but that reach for the accusation actually never gets us anywhere.

我的意思是，如果你只是想想自己的经历，就会发现它真的从没带我们到达过任何我们真正开心的地方。

I mean, if you just, you know, think about your own experience, it actually never gets us anywhere that we're happy to be.

关键在于首先要寻求富有同情心的理解。

The key is to reach first for compassionate understanding.

对吧？

Right?

让我来理解一下，从你的角度看，这对你来说是什么样的体验。

Like so so let me understand what this is like for you from your perspective.

如果我能做到这一点，就会软化我的心，也让我们双方的耳朵都更开放一些，更好地理解彼此的立场，从而看清我们各自进入这段关系的方式，是如何共同创造了我们之间的摩擦或痛苦点。

And that, if I can do that, will soften my heart and sort of open my ears and open your ears a little bit better to understanding where I'm coming from so that we can see how the way that we're both entering this, that we are cocreating this point of friction or this point of pain between the two of us.

然后我们才能真正合作，找到前进的方向。

And then we can actually collaborate to find a way forward.

Hidden Brain 的听众真是太棒了，詹姆斯，下一个问题让我大为震撼。

Hidden Brain listeners are just amazing, James, and this next question blew me away.

听众卡桑德拉问，接受的挑战是否更多与我们自己有关，而不是与我们的伴侣有关。

Listener Cassandra asks whether the challenge of acceptance has less to do with our partners and more to do with ourselves.

我接受那些我希望伴侣改变的事情的一种方式，就是反观自己，为什么这件事让我感到困扰。

So one of the ways in which I've come to accept the things that I wish would change in my partner was to look to myself about why it bothers me.

那件事究竟触动了我什么？

What is it about that thing?

然后去处理这个问题。

And work on what that is.

它让我想起了谁吗？想起了我的童年？

Does it remind me of someone, of my childhood?

在我的情况下，确实如此。

In my case, it did.

它让我想起了我的父亲。

It reminded me of my father.

我是一个戒酒的人，每当我伴侣想喝几杯时，我都会对他感到不满，因为他让我想起了我的父亲。

I am a sober person, and every time my partner like to enjoy a couple drinks, I'd be upset with him because he would remind me of my father.

我对这一点的不容忍，暗示着我内心还有更多需要探索的地方。

And my intolerance for that was a hint that there's more to explore within myself.

詹姆斯，你怎么看？

What do you think, James?

接受的挑战，是更少关于接受我们的伴侣，而更多关于接受我们自己吗？

Is the challenge of acceptance less about accepting our partners and more about accepting ourselves?

我喜欢这个问题，我也喜欢卡桑德拉所说的，因为她真的非常准确。

I love that question, and I love, you know, what Cassandra is talking about because she really is spot on.

那种‘我真的很不喜欢这个’的感受的产生。

The the arising of that experience of I really don't like this.

而接受的初始点、接受的领域，就是我自身正在经历什么？

And the the initial spot, the domain of acceptance is what is showing up for me?

在我的系统中、在我的不适和烦躁体验中，有什么正在浮现？

What is arising in my own system, my own experience of of discomfort and upset?

我能感觉到，我的某个情绪按钮被按下了。

I can tell that a button's getting pushed for me.

而如果我们对自己诚实，这几乎总是能帮助我们看到，伴侣的行为或未能做到的事情所触及到的我们的脆弱之处。

And that almost always, if we're honest with ourselves, helps us to see the the vulnerability that is being brushed up against by the thing that our partner is doing or failing to do.

因此，我特别喜欢卡桑德拉举的例子，这更多是关于我从父亲酗酒中所学到的，那才是我的脆弱所在。

And so I love Cassandra's sort of example of this is more about, you know, what I learned, what I've sort of experienced from my own father's drinking, and that's where my vulnerability is.

然后就有两件事。

And and then there's two things.

第一件事是，要以极大的关怀、理解和善意来对待自己的脆弱，不要与自己的脆弱发生争执。

One is to be able to hold our own vulnerability with with just great care and understanding and kindness, you know, not get into a fight with our own vulnerability.

然后，我们也能更好地以我们之前谈到的那种非指责的方式，向伴侣表达我们内心的真实感受。

And then we're also in a much better place to be able to share what's true for us with our partner in that nonblaming way that we were talking about.

对吧？

Right?

这并不是说你做了什么坏事或邪恶的事。

Like, this isn't about something that you're doing that's bad or evil.

而是关于我内心的一种脆弱，我请你去觉察它，并帮助我照顾它。

This is about a vulnerability that I have that I'm asking you to be aware of and to help me take care of.

接受伴侣的缺点并与之和解可能很困难。

Accepting our partners' flaws and making peace with them can be tough.

接纳自己的缺点并为造成的伤害道歉同样具有挑战性。

Accepting our own flaws and apologizing for the hurt we've caused can be equally challenging.

我们回来后，听众将提问关于‘承担责备’这一概念的问题。

When we come back, listeners questions about the concept of eating the blame.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

我是个好人，在艰难的环境中尽力而为。

I'm a good person doing the best I can in difficult circumstances.

如果你曾经这样想过或对自己说过这样的话，欢迎加入这个俱乐部。

If that's something you've thought or said to yourself before, welcome to the club.

我们大多数人认为自己是好人。

Most of us think of ourselves as good people.

心理学家有时将这种想法称为我们的道德自我概念，它对我们的自尊和心理健康至关重要。

Psychologists sometimes refer to this as our moral self-concept, and it's a process that can be important to our self esteem and mental health.

但这也是为什么说‘对不起’会如此困难的原因之一。

But it's also one of the reasons it can be really hard to say, I'm sorry.

毕竟，我们是好人，而且我们非常了解自己的想法和情绪。

After all, we're good people, and we have intimate knowledge of our own thoughts and emotions.

我们知道我们本意是什么，即使对方听到了不同的意思。

We know what we meant to say, even if the other person heard it differently.

然而，尽管道歉可能很难，但它能打破亲密关系中的怨恨与指责循环。

And yet, as difficult as it can be to apologize, doing so can break a cycle of bitterness and blame in romantic relationships.

心理学家詹姆斯·科多瓦将这种行为称为‘承担责备’，我们的许多听众对此想法有进一步的思考和问题。

Psychologist James Cordova refers to this as eating the blame, and many of our listeners had follow-up thoughts and questions about this idea.

詹姆斯，能简要提醒我们一下，你说的‘承担责备’是什么意思吗？

James, remind us briefly what you mean by eating the blame.

是的，‘承担责备’这个说法是我从禅宗传统中借用的。

So, yeah, eating the blame is a phrase that I've borrowed from the Zen tradition.

其核心意思是，在任何事情稍有偏差、结果不如我们所愿的时刻，总会有责备需要分担，而真正富有慈悲与智慧的深层做法，就是主动接过这份责备，说：‘你知道吗？’

And the basic sort of message is that in any moment when something has gone a little bit haywire, when things, aren't quite, showing up the way that we wish they would, there's some blame to be apportioned that that there it is a deep practice of of both compassion and wisdom to simply reach for that blame and say, like, you know what?

如果非得有人来承担，那就让我来吧。

If somebody has to take this, let it be me.

我们可以将这种做法作为一种修行，它不仅能加深我们与自己的连接，也能加深我们彼此之间的联系。

And there can be a way that we can do this as a practice that actually deepens connection with ourselves and deepens connection with each other.

在某些方面，有时候这种做法对我们来说是自然而然的。

In some ways, think sometimes this comes to us naturally.

我想到了父母有时如何对待小孩子的情况。

I'm thinking about the way, you know, parents sometimes deal with a small child.

你知道，孩子因为某件事感到难过。

You know, the child's upset about something.

父母通常不会陷入指责的争执，说你得控制好自己的冲动。

The parent often doesn't get into a blame fight saying, you know, you really have to get your impulse, impulses under control.

即使父母实际上并不觉得责任在自己身上，但在处理小孩子的问题时，承担责备在某种程度上反而更容易。

And even if the parent actually doesn't feel like the blame is on them, it's sort of easier in some ways to eat the blame when it comes to dealing, for example, with a small child.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

因为作为父母，我们在与孩子的关系中处于权威地位，这让我们感到安全。

Because the we're safe as parents in that up power position in relation to the child.

因此，对我们来说，承担这份额外的负担会容易一点。

So it makes it a little bit easier for us to take on that extra burden.

在亲密关系中，你知道，不存在权力差异。

In our intimate relationships, there's, you know, there isn't a power differential.

对吧？

Right?

因此，承担过错会让人感觉把自己置于弱势地位，而不是在做一件有益的事，不是以一种非常慷慨的方式去处理这个局面。

And so eating the blame can feel like we're putting ourselves in a down power position, rather than doing something beneficent, doing something that actually is this very generous way of taking care of the situation.

我们收到了一位听众莫妮克关于承担过错的问题。

We received a question about eating the blame from listener Monique.

她说，当她在关系中承担过错时，她注意到这有助于她与伴侣重新建立联系，但其中有个问题。

She says that when she eats the blame in her relationship, she notices that it helps her to reconnect with her partner, but there's a catch.

我还注意到，当我承担过错、道歉或承认自己做错事时，我的伴侣往往会退后一步，说：好吧，谢谢你。

What I also notice is that when I eat the blame and I apologize or I acknowledge what I did wrong or something like that, my partner tends to lean back and say: Well, thank you.

我们继续吧。

Now let's move on.

当然，我确实能做到这一点，但现在这种情况经常发生。

And of course, I am able to do that, but now it happens.

似乎我们的互动模式就是我总是那个搭建桥梁、试图重新连接的人。

It seems to be our dynamic that I'm the one building the bridge to reconnect.

他接受了我的努力，踏上了这座桥。

And he accepts it and steps on the bridge.

但我要怎么做呢？因为我同样看到了他在这种动态中的角色，我不愿责怪他，但我有时也希望他能接受或承担一些责任。

But how do I Because I see his part in the dynamic as well, and I don't want to blame him, but I would sometimes like for him to accept or to eat the blame as well.

我该如何以建设性的方式处理这个问题？

How do I deal with this in a constructive way?

我非常好奇。

I'm very curious.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你觉得呢，詹姆斯？

What do you think, James?

如果只有一个人不断承担责备，这顿‘饭’时间久了恐怕会让人越来越没胃口。

If only one person is eating the blame over and over again, it seems like that's a meal that would become pretty unappetizing over time.

当然。

Sure.

毫无疑问。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我很喜欢这个例子，莫妮克很好地描述了那种感觉。

You know, I love the example, and and Monique does such a nice job of sort of describing what it's like.

我特别喜欢她一开始承认这确实有效——搭起一座桥，我的伴侣也很感激，我们因此能够继续前进。

And I particularly love that she, you know, she starts off by recognizing this really does work, building a bridge, and my partner appreciates it, and we are able to move on.

但你知道，这件事还留着一点尾巴，一直让我耿耿于怀。

But, you know, the thing has this little tail that that is just sort of gnawing at me.

对吧？

Right?

而且你知道，一方面，承担责备这种做法是一种深刻的灵性实践。

And, you know, it's interesting because on the one hand, you know, the the practice of eating the blame is it is a deeply spiritual practice.

对吧？

Right?

它在召唤我们去觉察自我是如何出现，来保护我们免受伴侣的影响。

It is it's calling on us to recognize how the ego shows up to protect us from our partner.

而承担责备就像是在吞噬自我。

And eating the blame is sort of a way of, like, eating the ego.

对吧？

Right?

它把那东西移开，让我们能清除彼此之间的隔阂。

It gets that thing out of the way so that we can clear that space between ourselves and our partner.

你知道，真正挡在我和你之间的，其实是我的自我。

I you know, it's really my ego between me and you.

所以让我先把这东西清掉，这样我才能伸出手去道歉，并运用我的主动性重新连接我们。

So let me get that out of the way so that I can reach out and apologize and use my agency to reconnect us.

但某种程度上，蒙妮克所指出的是，嗯，我并没有把这顿饭吃完。

But in some ways, what Monique is pointing out is, like, well, I didn't quite finish the meal.

对吧？

Right?

就像，这里还残留着一点责备，我希望我的伴侣能把它吃掉。

Like, there's still a little bit of blame here that I wish my partner would eat.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我明白这一点。

You know, I get that.

对吧？

Right?

我们真的希望伴侣能镜像我们，也主动做同样的事。

Like, we really want our partner to just, like, mirror us and do their part in doing the same thing.

但这就多了一重挑战，哦，还剩下一小口没吃完。

But it's sorta it's that extra challenge of, like, oh, there's a little morsel left.

让

Let

让我来把这一点也说完。

me just let me just go ahead and finish that one too.

对吧？

Right?