升级版你：通往满足之路 + 对话中解答你的疑问

这里是《Hidden Brain》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。1776年，33岁的托马斯·杰斐逊起草了美国历史上最重要的文件之一。《独立宣言》描绘了一个新国家的愿景，宣称所有人都拥有天赋的生命权、自由权和追求幸福的权利。约翰·亚当斯、本·富兰克林等人对草稿进行了86处修改。

This is Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta. In the 1776, 33 year old Thomas Jefferson drafted one of the most important documents in the history of The United States. The Declaration of Independence laid out a vision for a new country and said all men had God given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 86 changes to the draft were made by John Adams, Ben Franklin, and others.

像许多作家一样，据说托马斯·杰斐逊对这些编辑建议的改动并不满意。但那句“我们都有追求幸福的权利”却保留了下来。近年来，《独立宣言》的许多内容受到审视，比如它遗漏了女性、穷人和被奴役者。我们在早期的一期节目中探讨过这些观点，回顾了托马斯·杰斐逊复杂的人生故事。今天，我们继续“U 2.0”系列，带来一期精选节目，探讨杰斐逊关于何谓美好人生的心理学主张。

Like many writers, Thomas Jefferson is said to have been unhappy with the changes his editors recommended. But the line about how we are all entitled to the pursuit of happiness endured. In recent years, many elements of the Declaration of Independence have come under scrutiny, its omission of women, the poor, and enslaved people. We have examined some of these ideas in an earlier episode that looked at Thomas Jefferson's complicated life story. Today on the show, we continue our U two point zero series with a favorite episode that explores Jefferson's psychological claim about what makes for a good life.

当我们追求幸福时，我们的内心会发生什么？本周《Hidden Brain》。当你问人们生活中想要什么，几乎每个人都会告诉你他们想幸福。毕竟，这就是找一份好工作、组建家庭或去美妙度假的意义所在。在加州大学伯克利分校，心理学家艾里斯·莫斯研究与我们追求幸福相关的悖论。

What happens in our minds when we pursue happiness? This week on Hidden Brain. When you ask people what they want in life, nearly everyone will tell you they want to be happy. After all, that's the point of finding a great job, starting a family or going on wonderful vacations. At the University of California Berkeley, psychologist Iris Moss studies a paradox associated with our pursuit of happiness.

艾里斯·莫斯，欢迎来到《Hidden Brain》。

Iris Moss, welcome to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你的邀请。

Thank you so much for having me.

艾里斯，大约十年前，你实现了学者生涯中的一个重要里程碑——在一所顶尖大学获得了终身教职。你梦想在像加州大学伯克利分校这样的学校当教授，已经多久了？

Iris, about a decade ago, you achieved a major milestone in the life of a scholar. You got tenure at a great university. How long had you dreamed of becoming a professor at a school like UC Berkeley?

我想是永远吧。所以这对我来说真的是件大事。我为此努力了很久，一直期待那一刻，希望我能获得终身教职。获得终身教职当然意义重大，我可以和最可爱的同事一起，在我热爱的领域工作，而且地点还这么美。

I think forever. So this was a really big deal for me. I'd been working toward this for a long time and had been really looking forward to that moment, hoping I would get tenure. Getting tenure is a big deal, of course. I would get to be with the most lovely colleagues I could imagine and doing what I love in a beautiful area.

每次我去加州大学伯克利分校，都被它的美丽震撼。伯克利真的太美了。所以，任务完成了，艾里斯？

Now, whenever I visit UC Berkeley, I'm struck by how beautiful it is. I mean, Berkeley really is absolutely gorgeous. So mission accomplished, Iris?

嗯，不完全是。事情并不完全像我设想的那样。就像那句老话，无论你去哪里，你还是你。我还是原来的我，烦恼和压力依旧会发生。至少在获得终身教职后的第一年，那些小烦恼反而更频繁地袭来，因为它们带着一种“等等，我不是应该一直开心吗？”的感觉。

Well, not quite. It wasn't quite the way that I had imagined. It's sort of like the saying, wherever you go, there you are. So I was still the same person somehow, and worries and stressful things still happened. Although at first, at least in the sort of year after getting tenure, those sort of small worries hit me almost more than before because they have this element of, wait a minute, shouldn't I be happy all the time?

我现在有了终身教职，可生活中还是有烦恼，是不是我哪里出了问题？

Is there something wrong with me that I have tenure now and yet I still have worries in my life?

我知道艾里斯你最近也有类似的经历，当你去意大利撒丁岛旅行时。出发前你怀着怎样的期待？

I understand you had a similar experience more recently, Iris, when you took a trip to the Italian island of Sardinia. What was your state of anticipation before the trip?

这是我隔了好久才第一次出门旅行，而且我要和我从小一起长大的最老的朋友见面。她住在德国，我已经两年没见她了，我们计划了这次旅行。我以为这会非常精彩。我会放松，会开心。

This was the first trip I took in a really long time, and I was gonna get together with my very oldest childhood friend. She lives in Germany, I hadn't seen her in two years and we had this trip planned. I thought this is just going to be amazing. I'm gonna be relaxing. I'm gonna be happy.

我几乎把它想象成一部托斯卡纳意大利电影。你知道，我们会在海滩上，喝葡萄酒，吃美味的食物，我们会驾船绕着小岛航行，在美丽的绿松石海水中愉快地漂浮。所以我满怀期待，觉得这将是非常完美的十天。

I visualized it almost like one of those Tuscan Italian movies. You know, we would be on the beach, we would be drinking wine, eating delicious food, we would go boating around the little island and just floating happily in those beautiful turquoise waters. So I had every expectation and so much anticipation that it would be just the perfect ten days.

那后来发生了什么，艾里斯？

So what happened Iris?

我们确实玩得很开心，但偶尔会有一些小念头冒出来，我会想到工作，或者担心家里的事情。于是这些小念头开始出现，我会想，等等，这不对。这种念头不应该出现，怎么回事？我是不是已经失去了放松的能力？

Well, we had a lovely time, but little thoughts or moments snuck in where I would be thinking about work or I would worry about something going on at home. So these little thoughts started to appear and I would think, wait a minute, this isn't right. This isn't supposed to be here, this thought. What's going on? Have I lost the ability to relax?

是不是我有什么问题？是不是假期有什么问题？为什么我不是每一天每一刻都开心？

Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with the vacation? Why am I not happy every moment of every day?

所以你和你的童年好友以及她的伴侣一起旅行。你的不安也影响了你的旅伴吗？

So you're on this trip with your childhood friend and her partner. Did your restlessness affect your travel companions too?

我想我可能让他们有点抓狂，因为我开始提议

I think I maybe I drowned them a tiny little nutty because I started to suggest

各种

sort of all kinds of

办法来实现我原本期待的那种持续的快乐状态。所以我会说，我们今天去另一个海滩吧，或者我们租条船绕小岛转一圈，或者我们去另一家餐厅。也许这对他们来说有点过了。

things to bring about the continuous happy state that I had anticipated. So I would say, let's go to this other beach today, or let's rent a boat and go around this little island, or let's go to a different restaurant. And maybe that was a little bit much for them.

我有个同事把这种假期形容为“要么前进要么死”。你知道，就是不能在一个地方待着。你要么前进，要么就完蛋。

I have a colleague who describes vacations like this as march or die. You know, there's no sitting in one place. You either march or you die.

有点像那样。

A little bit like that.

Iris，我想问你人生中的另一段经历，我觉得这段经历揭示了我们追求幸福的方式不仅是为了自己，也在于我们鼓励他人——包括我们的孩子——去追求幸福。回到湾区的家后，你忙着为儿子筹办八岁生日派对。派对的准备工作是怎样的？

I want to ask you about another episode in your life Iris and I think this one reveals how our approach to pursuing happiness is something we do not only for ourselves but something we encourage in other people including our kids. Back home in the Bay Area, you got busy throwing a party for your son's eighth birthday. What were the preparations for the party like?

我一直想把他的生日派对办得很好，但这一次我特别想让它完美。所以我提前在当地公园订了一个野餐位。我弄了一个新冠病毒形状的皮纳塔，就是那种你可以砸开的彩罐，里面装满了糖果。我还设计了很多游戏，当然还有装饰。我一个朋友是超棒的烘焙师，做了一个巨大又惊艳的蛋糕。

I mean, I always try to make his birthday parties really nice, but this one in particular, I wanted it to be perfect. And so I had reserved a picnic spot at the local park. I got a coronavirus pinata, where you sort of bash a pinata that looks like a coronavirus, filled it with candy. Lots of games that I had thought of, and decorations, of course. My friend, who's an amazing baker, made this enormous, stunning cake.

当然，我们还准备了披萨。

And of course, we had pizza.

当你想象这场派对会是什么样时，我想象你看到你儿子全程都欣喜若狂，和朋友们嬉戏玩耍。

And when you visualize what this party would be like, I'm imagining you saw your son just basically being ecstatic the whole time and frolicking and playing with his friends.

完全正确。全程欣喜若狂，蹦蹦跳跳，沐浴在金色阳光里，就是那样。

That's exactly right. Ecstatic the whole time, frolicking, bathed in golden rays of sunlight, exactly like that.

鉴于我们已经开始看到的这个模式，Iris，我都有点不好意思问你了。但但你说说，到了大日子，这场派对到底怎么样？

So I almost hesitate to ask you the question given the pattern that we are starting to see here, Iris. But but how did the party turn out when you arrived on the big day?

嗯，第一件事就是——那是六月，湾区六月从不下雨，从不，除了那一天。派对当天下雨了，所以我们只好临时调整，给大家发短信说晚一点来，我一边发一边祈祷雨会停。我们还是在雨里去了公园布置，因为我儿子非常着急，非要办派对不可。于是我们冒雨搭东西，全身湿透，当然我还让他们……

Well, the first thing that happened was that this is in June, and it never rains in the Bay Area in June, never, except that one day. And it was raining the morning of the party, So we had to sort of switch gears, like sort of texted everybody, come a little later, hoping, crossing my fingers, it would stop raining. We still went to the park to set up because my son was very impatient and intent on having his party. So we go in the rain, we're setting everything up, we're getting drenched, and of course, I told them to come a

稍微

little

后来，但我儿子脑子里一直记着派对开始的时间是11点。11点到了，还没人来，他开始崩溃。我脑海里还留着他站在雨里、被淋得湿透、快要倒下的画面。

later, but my son had the start time of the party in his head, 11:00, And 11:00 comes, nobody is there yet, and he starts to lose it. And, I still sort of have that image in my head of him sort of standing in the rain, getting drenched, falling.

你一定心疼极了，因为你花了那么多时间、精力和心思，想把这个派对办得完美。

And you must have felt like your heart was breaking because you had put so much time and effort and thought into making this the perfect party.

是啊，我真的很沮丧，但雨总算停了。我们还是继续，当然又出了别的问题。皮纳塔被雨淋透了，等到要敲的时候，一棍子下去，整个就软塌塌地掉下来。孩子们也不想玩我给他们准备的游戏。

Yeah. I was really upset, but it did stop raining. And we went ahead, and other things went wrong, of course. The pinata, you know, had gotten drenched in rain, and so when the pinata bashing was supposed to happen, it took just one swing and the whole thing just sort of sadly flopped down. And kids, they didn't want to play the games that I had planned for them.

他们自顾自玩。那次真是大失所望，几乎成了灾难。当我儿子站在雨里大哭时，我心想，哇，这大概是有史以来最糟糕的生日派对了。

They did their own thing. And it was a big disappointment and sort of like bordering on disaster. When my son was bawling standing in the rain, I thought, wow, this is actually the worst birthday party ever.

艾里斯的所作所为，我们人人都会。我们幻想实现某件事、得到某样东西、到达某个地方会是什么感觉。我们想象考上好学校、找到理想工作、与完美的人相爱并得到回应会是怎样的体验。有时梦想落空，我们心碎；即便梦想成真，我们也常感到失落、受骗。

What Iris did is something we all do. We dream about what it would feel like to accomplish something, to get something, or to be somewhere. We imagine how it would feel if we got into a great school, or found a great job, or fell in love with the perfect person who loved us back. Sometimes when those dreams don't work out, we are heartbroken. But even when they do work out, we often feel let down, cheated.

我们完成了这件难事，得到了这段美好的关系，实现了梦想。可为什么？我们不禁问：我们并没有更快乐？稍后回来，继续探讨我们关于幸福的理论误区。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。

We achieved this difficult thing, obtained this amazing relationship, accomplished our dreams. Why? We find ourselves asking, Are we not happier? When we come back, the problem with our theory of happiness. You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡·维达坦。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡·维达坦。艾里斯·莫斯亲身经历过追逐梦想却在实现后感到失落的感受。作为加州大学伯克利分校的心理学家，她通过多项实验试图理解这一现象。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Iris Moss has firsthand experience about what it feels like to chase a dream only to feel let down when she obtained it. In her research as a psychologist at UC Berkeley, she has run a number of experiments to try to understand the phenomenon.

艾里斯，我们的许多听众都习惯为完成艰难目标而努力。如果幸福是最重要的人生目标，我们告诉自己：那就努力去实现它。你研究过这样追求幸福的人。研究表明，他们的心理健康和幸福感如何？

Iris, lots of our listeners are people who are used to working hard to accomplish difficult things. If happiness is the most important goal of all, we tell ourselves, okay, let's work at it. Let's accomplish it. You've studied people who chase after happiness in this way. What do studies reveal about their mental health and well-being?

我们发现，那些非常执着于追求幸福的人，反而整体幸福感更低，抑郁症状更多，整体幸福水平也 paradoxically 更低。似乎他们越想幸福，就越难真正感到幸福。

We found that people who are very intent on being happy, those same people, somewhat ironically, in general, have lower levels of well-being, higher levels of depressive symptoms, and paradoxically lower levels of overall happiness. So it seems that the more, perhaps the more intent they are on being happy, the less they actually manage to be happy.

你的研究指出了几个原因，其中之一是高期望的影响。也许在你讲的故事里——成为伯克利的终身教授、意大利度假——我们已经听到了这种高期望的回声。高期望在塑造我们的幸福体验中扮演什么角色，赛勒斯？

So your research has identified several reasons for this. One has to do with the effects of high expectations. And perhaps we've we've heard some echoes of this in the stories you told us about becoming a tenured professor at UC Berkeley or the vacation in Italy. What is the role of high expectations in shaping our experience of happiness, Cyrus?

在其他生活领域抱有高期望可能是件好事，对吧？我们可能会努力在学校表现优异，然后为了取得好成绩而刻苦学习。我们也许达不到目标，会感到失望，而这种失望可能激励我们更努力。但在幸福这个领域，却存在一种悖论，对吧？因为当我们为追求高标准而未能如愿时，那种失望本身就与我们追求的目标相矛盾。

High expectations in other life domains can be a good thing, right? We might strive toward doing really well in school, and then we work hard toward getting a good grade. We might fall short of it, feel disappointed, and that might motivate us to work harder. But in the domain of happiness, there's sort of a paradox there, right? In that if we're disappointed when falling short of our goal that we're striving for, the high standard, that disappointment in itself contradicts the very goal.

所以，我们越是努力追求幸福，就越是在削弱真正抵达幸福的能力。

So the more we strive toward the goal of happiness, the more we undermine our ability to actually get there.

当然，一旦你真的达到了那个状态，即使体验很好但并非完美，它仍可能低于我们原本极高的期望。

And of course, once you actually get there, even if the experience is very good but not perfect, it might still fall short of the very high expectations we had.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, that's exactly right.

你引用了一项由心理学家乔纳森·舒勒及其同事进行的研究。他们研究了人们准备迎接新年到来时的情况。告诉我这项研究发现了什么，艾里斯。

So you've cited a study carried out by the psychologist Jonathan Schuler and his colleagues. They studied people getting ready to celebrate the start of a new year. Tell me what the study found, Iris.

好的。这项研究实际上是在2000年新年前夜进行的。那是一个非常盛大的节点。许多人对千禧年跨年夜的庆祝抱有极高期待。研究人员事先询问人们预期自己会有多开心，以及他们为这次跨年庆祝花费了多少时间做计划。

Yes. So this was actually for New Year's Eve two thousand. So it was a particularly big one. And a lot of people had really high expectations for what the big millennial New Year's Eve celebration would bring. And they asked, people ahead of time how happy they expected to be and how much time they spent planning for the New Year's Eve celebration.

首先，他们发现83%的人对庆祝活动感到失望。哇。其次，他们发现的另一个有趣现象是，参与者越是期待享受，最终反而越失望。所以并不是期望越高、越努力准备就能换来更多快乐。事实恰恰相反。

First on, they found that 83% of people were actually disappointed with the celebration. Wow. And then the second really interesting thing that they found is that the more enjoyment participants expected having, the more disappointed they actually ended up being. So it's not like greater expectation and working more toward enjoying the party would pay off with greater enjoyment. Actually, the exact opposite happened.

期望越高，享受越少。

More expectation, less enjoyment.

我猜这意味着，那些策划更大派对的人，反而可能比只办小型聚会的人更不快乐。

I'm assuming this means that people who plan bigger parties might paradoxically have been less happy than people with smaller gatherings.

他们确实发现了这一点。

That's exactly what they found.

还有另一个原因，使得追逐幸福可能会无意中把它赶走。检查我们是否幸福，对我们的幸福体验有什么影响？

There there's another reason that chasing happiness can have the inadvertent effect of chasing it away. What is the effect of checking to see if we are happy on our experience of happiness?

检查自己有多幸福，很大程度上与“幸福是一件重要的事”这一想法纠缠在一起。而且，这也是我们非常自动就会去做的事。在我举的所有例子里，几乎都是在那一刻我自问“我有多幸福？这一切进行得如何？”时，我就意识到，哦，其实我并没有自己希望的那么幸福。各种研究都暗示或考察过这种关系，即所谓的“享乐体验”与“元意识”——也就是对我们感受的自我觉察层面——之间的关系。其中一个研究这一问题的领域是“心流”研究。

Checking how happy we are is very much so bound up with thinking that happiness is an important thing. And it's also something that we do, I think, very automatically. In all of the examples, I think, that I gave from my own life, it's very much so that the moment I checked in on how happy am I, how how is this going, that's when I realized, oh, actually, I'm not quite as happy as I hoped to be. And various studies allude to that, or have examined that relationship between what's called hedonic experiences, and metaconsciousness, so that sort of overlay of being self consciously aware of how we're feeling. One domain of research where this has been examined is in the research of flow.

这是米哈里·契克森米哈赖的研究。他和同事发现，当人们处于心流状态时，事后报告说自己极其幸福。这是一种深层的幸福。但关键在于，这种状态也以“完全觉察不到自我”为特征。也就是说，自我在这些心流状态中几乎感觉被消解了，而事实上，当你自我检查并问“我现在感觉如何？”时，这种状态就被打断并破坏了。

And this is research by Mihaly Cixantimari. He and colleagues have shown that when people are in a state of flow, they report later on being incredibly happy. So, it's a state of deep happiness. But what's important is that it's also characterized by being completely unaware of the self. So, it means that the self almost feels like it's dissolved during these states of flow, and in fact, it's interrupted and destroyed when you check-in with yourself and ask, how am I feeling now?

这让我想起19世纪哲学家约翰·斯图尔特·密尔曾经注意到的一句话。他说：问问自己你是否幸福，你就不会再幸福了。这正是在说你提出的观点，艾瑞斯：把聚光灯转向内在并问“我幸福吗？”——哪怕你原本幸福——也往往会削弱幸福的体验。博士。

You know, I'm reminded of something that the nineteenth century philosopher John Stuart Mill once noticed. He said, Ask yourself whether you are happy and you cease to be so. And that's saying exactly what you are suggesting, Iris, which is that the act of turning that spotlight inward and asking, Am I happy? Even when you are happy, it tends to have the effect of diminishing the experience of happiness. Doctor.

是的，这些想法早已有之。约翰·斯图尔特·密尔当然大量思考过享乐体验。还有一句我非常喜欢的话，它直指过度追求幸福的另一个核心问题。他说：只有那些把心思固定在自身幸福之外的目标上的人才会幸福——固定在别人的幸福上，固定在人类的进步上，甚至固定在某种艺术或追求上，不是把它当作手段，而是当作本身理想的终点。

Yes. So those ideas have been around for a long time. John Stuart Mill thought about hedonic experiences, of course, a lot. And there's another quote that I really like and that gets to the heart of another problem with striving too much to be happy. And he said, those only are happy who have their minds fixed on some object other than their own happiness, on the happiness of others, on the improvement of mankind, even on some art or pursuit, followed not as a means, but as itself an ideal end.

如此瞄准别的东西，他们顺便就找到了幸福。我特别喜欢这句话，因为它指出了过度或错误地重视幸福的另一个问题：如果我们以牺牲周围的一切为代价来追求自己的幸福，事情就会出错并适得其反。

Aiming thus at something else, they find happiness by the way. And I really like that quote because it gets at another problem with overvaluing happiness or valuing it in the wrong way. And that's the idea that if we strive for our own happiness at the expense of what's going on around us, that's when things can go wrong and backfire.

艾瑞斯，这在很多方面都引出了我想和你讨论的另一个观点：追求幸福之所以是一种无效策略，会不会是因为我们常常并不知道什么才能真正让自己幸福？于是，通过追求那些我们以为会带来幸福的东西，我们有时反而错过了真正能带来幸福的事物。幸福。

In many ways, Iris, this gets to another idea I wanted to talk with you about, which is, is it possible that one reason pursuing happiness is an ineffective strategy is that we often don't know what it is that's going to make us happy. And so by pursuing things that we think will make us happy, we sometimes take our eye off the ball of the things that actually will make us happy. Happy.

我觉得你说得很对。丹·吉尔伯特等人发现，人类其实很不擅长预测什么会让自己幸福。而最能让人幸福的事情之一，就是与他人共度时光，与他人建立联系和亲密关系。那种过于强烈的对个人幸福的追求，可能会以牺牲与他人的连接为代价。我们做过一项研究探讨这个问题，想看看如果我们不以牺牲与他人的连接为代价来追求幸福，也许就能绕过过度重视幸福所带来的悖论效应。我们利用了不同文化对幸福的含义存在差异这一事实，从更社会导向的东亚文化（日本、中国台湾）到更个人主义、较少社会导向的文化（美国）中取样。

I think that's really right. Dan Gilbert and others have found that humans are actually pretty lousy at knowing what will make them happy. And one of the things that makes people most happy is spending time with others and being connected and close to other people, and sort of this overly intense pursuit of one's own happiness, that can come at the expense of connecting with other people. We did a study that gets at that question, asking whether if we don't pursue happiness in a way that sacrifices connection with other people, maybe we can get around the paradoxical effects of overvaluing happiness. And we took advantage of the fact that cultures differ with respect to what happiness tends to mean to people, and we sampled participants from cultures that are more socially oriented, East Asian cultures, Japan and Taiwan, all the way to cultures that tend to be more individualistically oriented, less socially oriented, The US.

中间还有两个文化：俄罗斯和德国。在每一份样本里，我们询问参与者有多重视幸福，以及幸福对他们意味着什么。然后我们测量他们的整体福祉水平。结果非常有趣，因为它提示了一条绕过我们一直在讨论的悖论的途径。在美国，我们发现重视幸福与更个人主义、更少社会导向的幸福追求紧密相连；而在这里，我们正好看到了前述的悖论：越重视幸福的人，反而越不幸福。

And then we had two cultures in between, Russia and Germany. And in each of those samples, we asked participants how much they valued happiness, but also what happiness means to them. And then we looked at their overall levels of well-being, and what we found was really interesting because it suggests a way to get around that paradox that we've been talking about. So, in The US, we found that valuing happiness was very much bound up with a more individualistic, less social pursuit of happiness. And here we found that exact link that we've been talking about: the more people valued happiness, the less happy they were.

但当我们沿着这条社会导向的梯度，从德国到俄罗斯，再到东亚，我们发现对幸福的追求越来越与帮助他人、与他人亲近联系在一起。于是我们看到，人们越是把幸福的价值解读为社会性的，那么重视幸福就与更高的福祉水平相关。

But then as we went in the social direction on that gradient to Germany, to Russia, to East Asia, we found that pursuit of happiness was more and more connected with helping other people and being close with other people. So what we found is that the more socially people interpret the value of happiness, the more that valuing happiness was associated with higher levels of well-being.

我们已经看到，用非常个人主义的方式追求幸福，反而会让我们更不快乐。它抬高了我们的期望，从而削弱了满足感；它促使我们不断自问“我幸福吗”，而这通常并不是体验幸福的最佳方式；它还让我们更容易疏远他人，陷入孤独。艾里斯，我想再谈一个关键观念：除了追逐幸福，我们还常常花大量时间试图逃避不幸。

So we've looked at several ways in which pursuing happiness in a very individualistic fashion can paradoxically make us less happy. It ramps up our expectations which diminishes our satisfactions. It causes us to ask ourselves if we are happy which is often not a good way to actually experience happiness and it makes it more likely that we will turn away from others and experience loneliness. I want to talk about one other really important idea Iris. Besides chasing happiness many of us also spend a great deal of time trying to escape unhappiness.

我想带你回到读研究生的日子，让你告诉我们，每次必须在公开场合汇报研究时，你都会经历哪些负面情绪？

I want to take you back to your days as a graduate student and have you tell us about the negative emotions you experienced whenever you had to make public presentations about your work?

和很多人一样，我以前也害怕在观众面前讲话。作为心理学研究生，第一次需要做学术报告时，这种焦虑非常强烈，几乎让我难以承受。我记得特别清楚，那是我第一次给所在领域的师生做报告，大概三十人。于是，在报告前的几周里，我脑子里不断盘旋着各种担忧：我肯定会说出极其愚蠢的话、我会当场卡壳、那种末日般下沉的感觉……还有无数失眠的夜晚，而失眠本身也帮不上忙。我的应对方式是告诉自己：得把这焦虑赶走，“不过是一次演讲，拜托，振作起来”，努力忽视它。但——我想这很常见——焦虑总会回来，甚至比以前更强烈，因为它回来时还带着一种印证：我确实有问题。

So like many people I used to have anxiety about speaking in front of audiences and as a psychology graduate student when I first started to have to give research presentations, this anxiety was actually pretty intense, almost overwhelming at the time. And I remember particularly clearly, I think this was the first talk I had to give as a graduate student to faculty and other students in the area I was part of. So maybe a group of 30 people. So for weeks before that talk and any talk, I would have all these worries circling through my head about all the incredibly foolish things I would definitely say, how I would freeze, that sinking feeling of doom really, and lots of sleepless nights, which doesn't particularly help. So my approach was to think, well, wait a minute, I need to get rid of this anxiety, telling myself it's just a speech, come on, get it together, try to ignore it, but, and I think this is pretty common, that anxiety would always return, and maybe even stronger than before, because it would then return along with the feeling that it confirms there's something wrong about me.

这很能说明问题，艾里斯。因为此时困扰你的不仅是焦虑本身，而是你对“自己正在焦虑”这件事的焦虑。

And this is so revealing, Iris, because what was happening here was not just that you were distressed, but that you were distressed about being distressed.

对，这就是所谓的“负向元情绪”——对情绪的情绪。这些元情绪几乎比最初的焦虑更糟。有句话叫“痛苦不可避免，但折磨可选”，而这些元情绪就是我们叠加在负面情绪之上的折磨。

Yes. So these were what's called negative meta emotions, so feelings about my feelings. And those were almost worse maybe than the initial round of feelings because there's a saying that goes, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. And these meta emotions, that's the suffering that we layer on top of negative emotions.

艾里斯，这些担忧，以及对担忧的担忧，严重到你开始怀疑自己是否适合走学术这条路吗？

Iris, I'm wondering, did these concerns and, I guess, these concerns about these concerns, were they serious enough that you started to think that maybe you were not cut out for this kind of career?

是的，绝对如此。因为做学术报告是这份工作的核心部分。情况糟到我曾考虑退学。

Yeah. Absolutely. Because giving research presentations is a really big part of the job. And so it just became so bad that I considered dropping out of grad school.

你刚才提到，面对这些负面想法时，你试图压制它们、让它们消失，我想很多人也这么做。你曾综述过研究发现：忽视或压抑负面情绪会损害我们与他人的关系。艾里斯，请讲讲这项研究。

One of the things you just told me you did when you had these negative thoughts was to try and find ways to suppress them, to make them go away, and I think many of us, do this. You've reviewed research that finds that ignoring or pushing away negative feelings can negatively affect how we relate to other people. Tell me about this research, Iris.

好的。相关研究不少，都表明压抑情绪不仅对自己有害，在人际情境中尤其有害。最近一项研究里，我们邀请正在恋爱的情侣到实验室，让他们进行两段对话。第一段，我们请他们讨论关系中的一个问题，比如多久回一次彼此父母家、金钱分歧、家务分配等。

Yeah. So, there's quite a bit of research on this, how suppressing our own emotions can be bad for ourselves, but also especially bad for interpersonal contexts. So in a recent study, we brought dating couples into the lab, and we had them carry out two conversations. The first one, we wanted them to talk about something that is a problem in the relationship. So things like how often do you visit each other's families, disagreements about finances, disagreements about housework.

于是这些情侣基本在实验室里“吵了一架”。接着我们让他们进行一段积极对话，请他们互相表达感激之情，说出欣赏和喜欢对方的地方，那段对话很温馨。每段对话结束后，我们都询问他们在与伴侣交谈时压抑了多少情绪，也问他们认为对话进行得如何、彼此感觉有多亲近。结果发现，无论是争吵还是表达爱意的对话，只要人们报告自己压抑了情绪——无论积极还是消极情绪——

And so the couples had basically a fight in the lab. And then we had them carry out a positive, conversation where we told them to tell each other how much they appreciated, one another and what they loved about one another, and those were lovely conversations. Now, after each conversation, we asked them how much they had suppressed their feelings while they had talked with their romantic partner. And we also asked them how well they thought the conversation went and how connected they felt to one another. And what we found is that no matter whether we were looking at a fight or at the loving conversations, when people said that they had suppressed their emotions, and that was true for positive and negative emotions.

他们越是压抑情绪，就越不愿意与伴侣分享，对话就越不顺利，彼此之间的连结感也越少。这表明，即使压抑的是负面情绪，也会干扰人与人之间的社会联系。

The more they suppressed them, the less they shared them with their partner, the less well the conversations went, and the less connected they felt to one another. So that suggests that holding back emotions, even if it's negative emotions, seems to disturb social connection.

正如我们所听到的，以高度个人主义的方式追求幸福并不奏效。试图逃避不幸也同样无效。稍后回来，什么才有效？您正在收听《Hidden Brain》。我是尚卡·维丹塔姆。

As we've heard, chasing happiness in a highly individualistic manner does not work. Trying to elude unhappiness doesn't work either. When we come back, what does work? You are listening to Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《Hidden Brain》。我是尚卡·维丹塔姆。我们大多数人完成任何事情的常规方式就是努力去做。谈到幸福，我们许多人会说，如果这是我真正想要的东西，我就必须努力去争取。在美国尤其如此，因为《独立宣言》颂扬了对幸福的追求。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. The conventional way most of us go about accomplishing anything is to work hard at it. When it comes to happiness many of us say if this is something I really want I need to go out and get it. This might be especially true in The United States where the Declaration of Independence celebrates the pursuit of happiness.

问题在于，追求幸福可能会产生适得其反的效果，把幸福赶跑。试图逃避不幸同样可能事与愿违。心理学家艾里斯·莫斯多年来一直在问自己，怎样才能过上更幸福的生活。一个关键的顿悟时刻来自她自己的生活。

The problem is pursuing happiness can have the paradoxical effect of chasing happiness away. Trying to elude unhappiness can be similarly counterproductive. Psychologist Iris Moss has spent many years asking herself what does work when it comes to living a happier life. A crucial moment of insight came from her own life.

是的，当我儿子还很小的时候，大概六个月到三岁之间，他会有所谓的“魔法时刻”，就是字面意思——长时间地哭闹和烦躁。到了睡觉时间他会哭，我需要休息。我会轻轻把他哄睡，非常小心地放进婴儿床，结果他立刻又醒来，一切重新开始，这样反复能持续两个小时甚至更久。我记得当时非常痛苦，因为既累人又不愉快，但我真心觉得，我可怜的宝宝，他应该安稳地睡觉。

Yeah, so when my son was really little, baby, I'd say between six months and maybe it went all the way till three years. He would have what is sometimes called witching hour, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's long hours of crying and fussiness and so he would cry, it's time to go to sleep, I needed to rest. I would rock him back to sleep and really really gingerly put him in his crib and he would instantly wake back up and it would start over repeating itself up to, like, two hours, maybe even more at a time. And I remember being really distressed about it just because it's exhausting, unpleasant, but really thinking, here's my poor baby, he ought to sleep peacefully.

我做错了什么？于是我开始问自己，我哪里不对，他哪里不对，为什么我无法让他平静、被安抚，他为什么不快乐？结果我越是疯狂地试图安抚他，他和我就越烦躁，简直像恶性循环。

What am I doing wrong? So just asking what's wrong with me, what's wrong with him, why can't I get him to be peaceful, comforted, why isn't he happy? And really, the more frantically I'm trying to comfort him, the more upset he and I would become sort of like a a vicious cycle, really.

于是有一个时刻你改变了应对他不安的方式。告诉我发生了什么，艾里斯。

So there came a moment when you changed your approach to his distress. Tell me what happened, Iris.

好的。事情到了顶点，因为我读了太多睡眠指导书。你知道，它们各说各的：保持规律作息；顺其自然。

Yeah. So it kind of came to a head because I read one too many sleep advice books. You know, they all tell different advice. Keep a schedule. Go with the flow.

抱着宝宝、摇宝宝、颠宝宝、用吹风机对着宝宝吹、保持安静、让宝宝适应噪音，诸如此类。作为新手父母，这些真的能把人逼疯。我觉得就是到了某个点，我读得太多，心想，我做不到。我意识到，这其实并不在我掌控之中，因为尝试了所有这些方法都没有带来期望的效果。于是我撞到了墙，只能接受现实。

Hold the baby, rock the baby, bounce the baby, blow a hair dryer on the baby, keep it quiet, get the baby used to the noise, that kind of thing. And as a new parent, it really can drive you a little nutty. I think it just came to a point where I was reading all that and I'm like, I can't do this. And I realized in a way, it was really not in my control because trying all these things hadn't yielded the expected hoped for effects. So in a way I hit a wall and I had to accept what was.

当你有了这种领悟后，你做了什么不同的事？

What did you do differently once you had this realization?

我并没有做任何不同的事，但我对它的看法变了。我放下了“应该”去控制它的念头。他应该安静。他应该去睡觉。他应该开心。

I didn't do anything differently, but my perspective on it changed. And I let go of the ought to control it. He ought to be peaceful. He ought to go to sleep. He ought to be happy.

而那种视角的转变几乎像一点魔法，因为就在我改变视角的那一刻，很多紧张感立刻消失了。他还是会哭。所以哭泣本身并没有改变，但那些哭泣的时刻几乎变得令人愉悦。我是说，这么说有点奇怪，但几乎算是愉悦的，因为它不再是必须被赶走、被我层层评判的东西，而是我们共同经历的事。我想，他愿意在我面前展现自己的痛苦。

And that perspective change was almost like a little magic because the moment I changed my perspective, that very moment a lot of the tension just left. He still cried. So it didn't change anything about the crying per se, but the moments or the times of crying almost became pleasant. I mean, it's it's weird to say that, but it was almost pleasant because it wasn't something that I had to make go away that I was layering all this judgment on, but rather it was something that we shared. And I thought, well, he's comfortable showing his distress to me.

这成了我们共同经历的一种体验，某种程度上也是我们关系丰富性的一部分，而不是要回避的东西。

And it sort of was an experience that we share together and part of the richness of our relationship in a way, rather than something to try and avoid.

于是你继续研究了练习情绪接纳的效果。艾瑞丝，你能告诉我，当我们这样做时，对我们的情绪有什么影响吗？

So you went on to conduct research on the effects of practicing emotional acceptance. Can you tell me what effect this has on our moods when we do it, Iris?

可以。人们在接纳负面情绪的程度上存在差异。有些人天生就能做到我当时很难做到的事：遇到负面情绪时，他们不会去评判好坏。另一些人则倾向于像我那样，告诉自己‘我不该有这种感觉’。

Yeah. So people differ in the degree to which they tend to accept their negative emotions. So some people naturally do something that I had a hard time doing. They encounter negative emotions and they don't judge them as good or bad. Other people have a tendency to do what I did, which is tell themselves I shouldn't be feeling the way I'm feeling.

这是错的。我们发现，越不接纳负面情绪的人，抑郁和焦虑症状越多，幸福感也越低。顺便说，这一点在男性和女性、不同族裔群体中都成立。在同一项研究里，我们还想知道为什么会这样，于是用两种方式探讨。

This is wrong. And what we found is that the less people accept their negative emotions, the more depressive symptoms, the more anxiety symptoms they experience, and the less well-being they have. And this, by the way, tends to be true for men and for women across different ethnic groups. And in that same study, we also wanted to find out why that is. And we tackled that question in two ways.

其中一项研究，我们把人带进实验室，让他们即兴发表一段演讲——这通常会让人感到压力，是很常见的焦虑源。我们测量了他们感受到的负面情绪和正面情绪。结果发现，具有接纳心态的人在面对这场压力演讲时，负面情绪更少，整体上也少了一点焦虑和苦恼。

In one study, we brought people into the lab, and we had them, ironically, give an impromptu speech that people tend to find stressful. It's a really common anxiety. And so we measured how much negative and how much positive emotions they felt. And people who tend to have an accepting mindset responded to the stressful speech with less negative emotion. They, on the whole, felt a little bit less anxious and little bit less distraught.

研究的另一部分，我们给了参与者每日日记。连续两周，每天问他们：今天发生的最有压力的事是什么？你对此的情绪反应如何？感受到多少悲伤？多少痛苦？

And there was another part of the study where we gave people daily diaries. So every day for two weeks, we asked them, what was the most stressful thing that happened to you today? And what were your emotional responses to that? How much sadness? How much distress did you feel?

也包括正面情绪：在那件最有压力的事里，你感受到多少力量、希望、喜悦？我们发现，具有接纳心态的人在日记里记录到，他们对当天最大压力事件的负面情绪更少；而这种情绪反应解释了六个月后他们心理健康更好的原因。因此，日常逆境中的日常情绪似乎是其中关键的一环。

But also positive emotions. How much strength, how much hope, how much joy did you feel during your day's most stressful event. And what we found was that people who have a accepting mindset in their daily diaries reported feeling less negative emotions in response to the day's most stressful events. And in turn, that emotional response explained why six months later those same people had better mental health. So these sort of daily emotions in response to daily adversity seem to be a really important active ingredient in that link.

你知道吗，听着这些观点和研究，我不禁想到，世界各地早在几个世纪前的哲学、宗教和灵性传统里，就谈过同样的理念：你应当如实接纳自己的情绪，不要过度沉溺其中。作为21世纪的心理学家，你是否会反思，自己的工作在某种程度上正呼应着古代学者与圣贤的教诲？

You know, as I'm listening to this to these ideas and this research, I can't help but reflect on the fact that there have been, you know, philosophical and religious and spiritual traditions going back probably many centuries around the world that have talked about the same ideas, the ideas that you should actually accept your emotions for what they are, you shouldn't get overly caught up in those emotions. Do you sometimes reflect on the fact that your work as a psychologist in the twenty first century in some ways is mirroring the work of, you know, ancient scholars and and sages?

是的，绝对如此。这些想法中的许多在世界宗教和哲学中都有先驱。其中最大的代表之一就是佛教。佛教是正念的前身，而接纳是正念这一更大哲学体系中非常重要的一部分。

Yes. Absolutely. So, many of those ideas have precursors in world religions and philosophies. And one of the biggest representation of that idea is Buddhism, of course. And Buddhism is the precursor to mindfulness and acceptance is a really big part of the larger philosophy of mindfulness.

因此，我们欠佛教学者、修行者以及正念研究者巨大的知识债务。

And so there's a huge intellectual debt owed to Buddhist scholars, as well as Buddhist practitioners and researchers on mindfulness.

我在想，这种情绪接纳的想法对美国人来说是否尤其难以接受。很多美国人可能会把接纳等同于认命或失败。Iris，你的研究参与者有没有报告过这种情况？

You know, I'm wondering whether this idea of emotional acceptance might be especially hard to, you know, accept for Americans. You know, many Americans, I think, might associate acceptance with ideas like resignation or defeat. I'm wondering whether your participants in your studies ever report that, Iris.

这是一个我们非常关注的问题，因为我们不希望人们接受糟糕、不公正的情境，即使这会让他们感觉好一些。因此，在研究中，我们不仅询问参与者接纳自己情绪和负面想法的倾向，也询问他们接受糟糕情境的倾向。这非常重要，因为接纳自己的情绪和想法与更好的心理健康相关，而接受糟糕情境则没有这种效果。所以这是两回事，接纳自己的感受并不意味着对糟糕情境认命。

That's a great question that we are really concerned about because we wouldn't want people to accept bad, unjust situations, even if it helps them feel better. And so, in the research, we also asked participants about their tendency to accept bad situations, in addition to their tendency to accept their own emotions and their own negative thoughts. And this is really important because these beneficial effects of accepting your own emotions and thoughts were connected with better mental health, while accepting bad situations was not. So it's a separate thing, and accepting how you feel does not mean accepting and resigning yourself to bad situations.

换句话说，我可能对某件事感觉不好，我可以接纳自己对这件事感觉不好，但这并不一定意味着我对让我感觉不好的事情视而不见。

So in other words, I might feel badly about something, and I can accept that I'm feeling badly about something. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm turning a blind eye to the thing that's actually making me feel bad.

是的，完全正确。实际上我认为，这反而可能帮助人们应对生活中的糟糕事情。因为如果你正视自己的负面情绪而不被其淹没，这可能有助于你更有效地处理那些糟糕、不公正、充满压力的情境。

Yes, exactly. And I think actually it might help people in a way to address bad things in their lives. Because if you look your negative feelings in the eye and don't get overwhelmed by them, that might help you more effectively deal with addressing bad, unjust, stressful situations.

有没有人向你表达过这样的担忧：接纳负面情绪意味着这些负面情绪会永远存在？

Do do people ever share the worry with you that that accepting negative emotions means that those negative emotions are now going to stick around forever?

我认为这是一个非常普遍的担忧，它也解释了一个小小的谜团：接纳听起来很容易，对吧？你 literally 什么都不用做。情绪在那里，你不试图控制它们，不采取行动。听起来极其简单，但我们却非常非常难以做到。

I think it's a really common worry, and it explains something that's a little bit of a mystery, which is acceptance sounds really easy, right? You literally don't do anything. You have your emotions. They're there, you don't try to control them, you don't spring into action. So, sounds incredibly easy, and yet, we have a really, really hard time doing that.

就连我自己，尽管我已经多次看到它的好处，我的第一反应仍然是：哦，不好，赶紧让它消失。我认为背后的信念是，我会被它淹没，所以我需要迅速压制它。所以我认为这是我们很多人根深蒂固的信念，这也解释了为什么我们并不自然地拥抱接纳。

Even I myself, I've seen the benefits so often. I still my first instinct is often to, oh, bad, make it go away quick. And I think the underlying belief is that I'm going to get overwhelmed by it. And so I need to clamp down on it quickly. So I think it's a really deeply ingrained belief that many of us have, and it explains why we don't naturally embrace acceptance.

我们不会一直这样做。

We don't do it all the time.

我们一直在谈论接纳不快乐、负面情绪的重要性。但我们开始这场对话时谈的是追逐幸福的问题。你之前提到，对幸福抱有过高期望可能会注定失望。Iris，我们该怎么做呢？

So we've been talking about the importance of accepting feelings of unhappiness, negative emotions. But we started this conversation talking about the problem with chasing happiness. You mentioned earlier that having high expectations for happiness can be a prescription for disappointment. What should we do instead, Iris?

我认为一个总体建议是，对我们的积极和消极情绪都采取接纳的心态。不要过多监控。不要试图逃避。也不要过于追求别的东西。一种思考方式是，把“我必须”的心态换成“我更喜欢”的心态。

I think one overall recommendation is to have an accepting mindset for both our negative and our positive emotions. Don't monitor as much. Don't try to avoid. Don't try to strive too much for something else. One way to think about this is that it kind of replaces a mindset of I need to be with a mindset of I prefer.

所以我认为我们仍然可以有偏好。问题在于我们告诉自己，我必须以某种方式感受，否则我就无法拥有美好的生活。我认为这正是我们需要避免的。因此，带着轻松态度的偏好对我们的心理健康和福祉是有益的。我们要摆脱的是那种“必须”和过度担忧。

So I think we can still have preferences. The problems come in where we tell ourselves, I must feel a certain way or else I can't have a good life. That's I think what we need to avoid. So preferences with a light touch are good for our mental health and well-being. It's the need and the concern that we wanna get away from.

那么，如果能把这一领悟带回当年你在公园为儿子办生日派对、天却下雨的那一刻，你会对当时的自己说什么，Iris？今天的你会给那个Iris什么建议？

So if you could take this insight back to when you were setting up that birthday party for your son in in a park as it's raining, what would you tell yourself in that moment, Iris? What would you advise that Iris today?

我会告诉自己，希望拥有一个精彩的生日派对是可以的，但我并不需要它成为完美的生日派对——不需要所有孩子100%全程开心，也不需要认为只有那样才算成功。即使不是完美派对，我的儿子、我的生活以及所有重要的事都会好好的。

I would tell myself that it's okay to prefer to have a wonderful birthday party, but that I don't need it to be the perfect birthday party, where all the kids are completely happy 100% of the time, and that my son and my life and all the important things are gonna be okay, even if it's not.

你知道吗，Iris，我在想，现在有多少书、播客和博客都在讲如何更快乐。某种程度上，它们构成了一个“幸福工业综合体”。这个行业告诉我们必须努力追求幸福。而你的观点听起来正好相反——我们恰恰不该那么做。

You know, I'm thinking about the fact, Iris, that there are so many books and podcasts and blogs about how to be happier. And in in some ways, they constitute something of a happiness industrial complex. You know? And this industry tells us that we need to work hard at being happy. And in so many ways, it sounds like you're saying we need to do exactly the opposite.

是的。我想说，感受喜悦、感受幸福是全人类共同的偏好。所以，我并不是要扔掉所有这些书和建议，但我认为我们需要稍微调整一下追求的专注度，以及追求的方式。与他人建立联系、选择体验而非物质，这些才是真正有效的方法。

Yes. I would say that feeling joy, feeling happiness is a universal human preference. So, I'm not saying we we should get rid of all of those books and all of the advice, but I do think we need to fine tune a little bit just how single mindedly we we go about the pursuit, as well as how we go about that pursuit. So connecting with other people, engaging in experiences over material goods, those are things that tend to work.

所以我想问，Iris，在研究接纳的力量——无论是面对不快乐还是面对幸福——之后，这有没有改变你自己的生活？你是否会在某些时刻告诉自己，不要评判自己的消极或积极情绪，而只是去接纳它们？

So I'm wondering, Iris, after studying the power of acceptance, both when it comes to dealing with unhappiness as well as it when it comes to dealing with happiness, has this changed your own life? Do you find yourself in moments being able to tell yourself not to judge your negative or positive emotions, but just to accept them?

其实做起来挺难的，至少对我来说是这样。因为我们体验幸福、体验正负情绪的方式，深深植根于我们的成长经历和文化背景。这些都是根深蒂固的思维习惯。所以，尽管“什么都不做”——不评判、不控制——听起来简单，却真的很难做到。但我绝对会努力。一个我觉得成功的例子，是我与一位童年好友在多年后重新取得联系。

It's actually pretty difficult to do, at least for me, because the way we encounter happiness, the way we encounter positive and negative emotions is really deeply ingrained in our upbringing and in our culture. So, these are deeply ingrained habits of the mind. And so, even though it's literally doing nothing, not judging, not trying to control, it can be really difficult for people to do it. But I absolutely try to do it. And one example where I feel like I succeeded is when I reconnected with my childhood friend after a really long time.

她其实得过癌症，做过手术和化疗。当时她正在康复，但亲眼看到她的样子仍然很难受。我有很多悲伤和哀痛的情绪，为她所经历的一切、为她身体所承受的代价。我觉得自己能够停留在这些情绪里，是因为我明白，面对癌症的这段旅程，这种反应是正常的，是生命的一部分。那种感觉就像仰望天空中飘过的云，或像静静看着一条平和的河流，对吗？

She actually had gone through cancer and had surgery and chemotherapy. She was in recovery but still seeing her physically, it was difficult. And there were many feelings of sadness and grief for seeing what she had to go through, the toll it had taken on her body. And I think I managed to stay with those feelings because I was able to see how the journey of going through cancer, it's a normal reaction, it's part of life. And what it feels like is almost like watching clouds in the sky or watching a peaceful river go by, right?

你不会试图控制云朵，也不会试图控制水流，你不对云朵或水流加以评判。通过这样做，也把你自己的情绪看作一条只是流经你或从你身上流过的河流，我们就能接受它的本来面目，放手让它继续流淌。

Where you don't try to control the clouds, you don't try to control the water, you don't judge the clouds or the water. And by doing that, viewing your own emotions as well, like a river that is just flowing by or through you, we're able to accept what it is and let it go and let it flow on.

艾里斯·莫斯是加州大学伯克利分校的心理学家。艾里斯，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的大脑》。

Iris Moss is a psychologist at the University of California Berkeley. Iris, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

能和你交谈真是太愉快了。非常感谢。

It was so lovely to talk with you. Thank you so much.

广告之后，我们将进行一场关于对话的对话。在我们最新一期的“你的问题我来答”环节中，我们将听到听众对于如何与身边人进行更有活力的讨论的想法。此外，我们还会思考我们能否做些什么来帮助他人提升他们的对话技巧。你正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。

After the break, a conversation about conversations. In the latest edition of our segment, Your Questions Answered, we'll hear listener thoughts on how to have more dynamic discussions with the people around us. Plus we'll consider whether there is anything we can do to help other people improve their conversational game. You are listening to Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta.

这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。你上一次和朋友或伴侣好好聊天是什么时候？那种你们俩都忘了时间的聊天。你们互相讲故事，回忆最喜欢的往事。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. When was the last time you had a good catch up with a friend or partner? The kind of chat where you both lost track of time. You told each other stories, reflected on favorite memories.

当然，并非所有互动都如此顺利。我们都经历过一边倒或支离破碎的对话，让我们事后疑惑：刚才发生了什么？行为科学家艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯研究对话的科学。她是《谈话：对话的科学》以及《做我们自己的艺术》的作者。在这一期的“你的问题我来答”中，我们请艾莉森回来，回答你们关于如何拥有更好对话的问题。

Of course, not all interactions go so smoothly. We've all had conversations that were one-sided or so disjointed we were left wondering, what just happened? Behavioral scientist Alison Woodbrooks studies the science of conversation. She's the author of Talk, The Science of Conversation, and The Art of Being Ourselves. In this edition of Your Questions Answered, we've asked Alison to come back to answer your questions on how to have better conversations.

如果你错过了我们之前与艾莉森的节目，可以在这个播客订阅源中找到。第一期叫做《我们需要谈谈》，第二期名为《让我们更亲近的对话》。艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯，欢迎再次回到《隐藏的大脑》。

If you missed our earlier episodes with Allison, you can find them in this podcast feed. The first is called, we need to talk. The second is titled, the conversations that bring us closer. Allison Woodbrooks, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你们再次邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me back.

艾莉森，你引用了职业媒人蕾切尔·格林沃尔德的话。她提到一种她在对话中称为“情绪电梯”的东西。什么是情绪电梯？

Alison, you cite the professional matchmaker Rachel Greenwald. She talks about something she calls the mood elevator in conversations. What is the mood elevator?

情绪电梯是指，在对话过程中，你的情绪会上下波动。作为学者，我们认为情绪实际上比单纯的好或坏、上或下要复杂得多。但关注对话进行时的“温度”或情绪基调，确实是一个很好的想法。优秀的对话者善于把住方向盘，意识到何时话题变得过于无聊乏味，也意识到何时可能变得过于激烈、愤怒或敌对，并采取措施让情绪电梯朝着正确的方向移动。

The mood elevator is this idea that you, throughout a conversation, are moving up and down, in terms of mood. As a scholar, we think about emotions actually as more complex than just good or bad or moving up and down. But it is a really nice idea to keep in mind what the sort of temperature or emotional timbre of the conversation is as it proceeds. And good conversationalists are good at sort of keeping their hand on the steering wheel, realizing when things have gotten too boring and dull, and also realizing when maybe things are getting too heated, too angry, too hostile, and actually making moves to try and, keep the mood elevator moving in the right direction.

艾莉森，我们很少在开启对话前考虑它的目的。几乎没有人会坐下来对自己说：好，这就是我的目标，这是我的议程，我对这场对话的愿景。你认为这会让对话变得更糟。

Allison, we rarely consider a conversation's purpose before starting it. Few of us sit down and say, okay. This is my goal. This is my agenda, my vision for the conversation. You argue that this can make conversations worse.

怎么讲？

How so?

没错。对话中“成功”的含义本身就取决于说话者想从中获得什么，他们的目标是什么，他们真诚的渴望是什么。而很多时候，绝大多数时候，我们进入对话时完全不知道自己的目标是什么。也许你隐约知道，哦，我想跟某人待一会儿，而且不想尴尬。但只要稍微更清楚一点你想从对话中得到什么，也许更重要的是，对方想得到什么，这就是弄清楚“成功”到底长什么样的关键。

That's right. The very meaning of what success is in conversation depends on what the speakers want to get out of it, what their goals are, what their sincere desires are. And so often, most of the time, we go into conversations not having a clue what our goals are. Maybe you loosely know, oh, I wanna spend time with someone, and I don't want it to be awkward. But having just a little bit more clarity about what you want out of the conversation, and maybe even more importantly, what your partner wants out of the conversation is the key to figuring out what success even looks like.

举个例子，如果你需要了解对方某方面的信息，或者某个具体话题，你最好主动提问并切入那个话题。如果你没有这么做，那在某种程度上就是对话失败的信号。我们的目标并不总是严肃、以效率为导向的。很多时候我们的目标只是一起开心、打发时间、互相了解，但这些动机同样重要。所以，哪怕只是知道：嘿，我只想跟这个人一起度过这三十分钟，而且我想笑。

For example, if you, need to learn something about the other person or about a specific topic, you better ask and move to that topic. And if you don't, that's a signal of of sort of conversational failure in a way. Our our goals are not always, serious and sort of productivity driven. Often our goals are just to have fun together or fill time, learn about each other, but those are important motives. And so even knowing that, hey, I just wanna spend these thirty minutes with this person, and I wanna laugh.

知道这一点，就应该指导你在互动中做出怎样的选择。

Knowing that should guide what choices you make during that interaction.

你真的建议人们在开始对话前先彼此交流一下，比如说，告诉你我现在的状态，以及我希望从对话中得到什么吗？

Do you actually recommend that people talk to one another before they start a conversation saying, you know, here's the headspace I'm in. Here's what I'm hoping to get out of it?

我认为，我们越能清楚地向别人表达我们在乎什么、想要什么，别人就越有可能真正满足这些需求。我们知道，人们并不——我们并不擅长猜别人想要什么。你经常能看到这种情况，比如夫妻吵架，他们会生气地说：你懂的，我不需要你解决我的问题，我只需要一个拥抱。对吧？

I think the clearer we can be with others about what we care about and what we want, the more likely those people are to actually fulfill those needs. We know that people aren't we're not that great at guessing what other people want. And you see this happen a lot with like married couples who get mad at each other because you're they're like, you know, I don't need you to solve my problem. I just need a hug. Right?

但部分责任在于，你其实可以直说：我现在只需要有人听我说，或者我现在只需要一个拥抱。我真的不需要你解决这个问题，这样他们就不会做错事。当然，事情也复杂，因为明确说出目标也可能破坏目标。如果我说：哦，我真的很想我们一起大笑，我不确定这会不会真的成为我们一起大笑的正确路径。所以确实有点复杂。

But part of that responsibility is you can literally say, I just need I just need someone to listen, or I just need a hug right now. I actually don't need you to solve this problem before they do the wrong thing. So but of course, there's also it's complicated because stating your goals explicitly can also undermine them. If I say like, oh, I just really wanna laugh a lot, I'm not sure that's the right pathway to actually laughing a lot with each other. So it is a little complicated.

是的。我们进入听众提问环节吧。我们收到不少觉得自己对话失衡的提问。这位是戴夫。

Yeah. Let's move on to the listener questions. We received a number of questions from people who feel like their conversations are imbalanced. Here's Dave.

我通常是对别人很感兴趣的人，所以我问很多问题。问题在于，很少遇到会回问我问题的人。于是大多数对话最后都变成别人在谈自己。所以我的问题是：有没有可能问太多问题，以至于你设定了一种互动模式，让对方习惯只谈自己？谢谢。

I tend to be someone who is very interested in other people, so I ask a lot of questions. The problem is it's relatively rare to encounter someone who reciprocates and asks questions of me. So that most conversations end up being people talking about themselves. So my question is, is it possible to ask too many questions so that you've set a dynamic where the other partner you're conversing with is accustomed to just talking about themselves? Thanks.

Alison，在我们之前的谈话中，我们谈到了提问这种超能力。而Dave在问，这种超能力会不会被用过头？

So we talked in our earlier conversation, Alison, about the superpower that is asking questions. Questions. And I guess Dave is asking, is this a superpower that can be taken too far?

Dave，这是个很棒的问题。当然，我们每个人大概都能想到生活中那些问太多问题、或者习惯性地问太多问题的人。但实际上，“问得太多”比“问得不够”要罕见得多。而且，这种情况往往出现在可预测的场景里。比如，在第一次约会中，我们的研究并没有发现提问过多会有临界点。

It's a great question, Dave. So, yes, of course, we can all probably think of people in our lives who have asked too many questions or who habitually ask too many questions. But asking too many questions is much more rare than not asking enough questions, actually. And and, actually, sometimes it can happen in predictable contexts. For example, on first dates, we don't see in our research any tipping point for asking too many questions.

在那个情境下，你们彼此有太多需要了解的东西，而且目标高度一致，这是一个非常合作性的任务。另一方面，拿我们同样研究过的销售电话举例，那里确实存在提问过多的临界点，通常是因为你们对彼此的动机更存疑，或者目的相冲突。你会想：他们是不是想占我便宜？他们问这些问题，是不是只想套信息，然后利用我抬价之类的？

You have so much to learn about each other in that context, and your goals are very aligned. It's a very cooperative, task. On the other hand, take for example, sales calls, which we've also studied, there is a tipping point for asking too many questions, usually because you're more suspicious of each other's motives or you have colliding purposes. You are they trying to take advantage of me? Are they asking about these questions because they wanna learn information only to then exploit me and raise the price or something?

但即便在那里，问得太多也比问得太少要好。所以我们的数据里能看到，确实存在一个临界点。例如，在一个包含三十分钟销售电话的庞大数据集里，当提问速度达到每分钟四个问题时，你在对方眼中的好感度开始下降。但即便你处于提问频率非常高的那一端，也比处于提问频率非常低的那一端要好。

But even there, asking too many questions turns out to be better than asking too few. And so what we see in our data is that there is a tipping point. So for example, on a huge dataset of thirty minute sales calls, there is a tipping point where asking four questions per minute, starts to go down in terms of likability, for the other person. But even there, even if you're at the at that very high end of asking questions, it's better than being at the very low end where you're not asking enough.

某种程度上，这引出了Eduardo提出的下一个问题。

In some ways, I think that leads us to the next question, which comes from Eduardo.

在很多人的对话中，我常觉得我们都有共同的责任让对话持续下去。我经常觉得，当有人默默坐在角落只是倾听时，某种程度上是一种自私行为。感觉他们并没有为这场对话做贡献，只是坐着听，对我们其他人来说有点不公平。我不知道是不是只有我有这种感觉，你怎么看？

I often feel that in conversations with many people, we all have a shared responsibility to keep it going. And I very often feel that when someone is silent on a corner just listening is in a way an act of selfishness. The sense that they are not contributing to this conversation and just sitting and listening feels a little unfair to the rest of us. I don't know if I'm alone on this feeling. What do you think?

所以某种程度上，这是之前问题的反面，Allison。不是一个人不停讲自己、不问问题，而是一个人经常沉默，这让Eduardo感到不满。

So in some ways, this is the flip side of the earlier problem, Allison. Instead of one person, you know, talking a lot about themselves and not asking any questions, one person is silent a lot, and that makes Eduardo resentful.

Eduardo，我听见了。我觉得“谁负责”这个问题很有意思。你用了“共同责任”这个词，确实如此，因为每场对话都是由多人共同构建的。一旦到了群体场景，事情就复杂多了。我们总觉得群体对话和一对一对话是同一种任务，因为都在说和听。

Eduardo, it's I I hear you. I think it's a fascinating question of who's responsible. You use the phrase shared responsibility, and it's true because every conversation is sort of jointly constructed by multiple people. Things get much more complicated in groups. We feel like group conversation is the same task as one on one conversation because you're speaking and listening.

但实际上，只要第三个人拉过椅子坐下，就可能出现一个人一句话不说，却仍然参与对话、仍然像是在旁听另外两人的情况。群体对话的协调非常麻烦，要把发言时间分配好极其困难。所以我认为Eduardo可以做一些事情，轻轻推动那个安静的人多参与。比如，你可以用眼神接触让群体中沉默的成员感到被看见、被包容，并给他们一个眼神：嘿，我想听听你的想法。

But actually, as soon as a third person pulls up a chair, it's possible then for one person in the group to say nothing and still be involved in the conversation, still be sort of eavesdropping on the other two. And and group conversation is such a coordination kerfuffle that getting these airtime dynamics right is very, very hard. And so I think there are things that Eduardo could do to sort of nudge the quiet person to participate more. Right? You can make sure that you're making eye contact with quiet members of a group to make sure that they feel seen and included and sort of give them a wink like, hey, I wanna hear from you.

对说话太多的人也一样，有办法应对。你可以适当打断，也可以把话题转向另一位成员，问：“你怎么看TA说的？”但在某个点上，尤其是在群体对话中，虽然确实共同承担营造良好体验的责任，却也存在控制不了的部分。

And the same is true for people who are talking too much. There are things you can do. You can kinda cut them off. You can redirect to another group member and say, you know, what do you think of what they're saying? But at some point, and especially in group conversation, while there is a shared responsibility to create a good experience, there's also lack of control.

你无法控制别人说什么、做什么。所以当有人坐在那里一言不发时，你永远不知道他们脑子里在想什么。你不知道他们是焦虑、害羞，还是觉得自己没什么可补充的，或者其实正乐在其中。你能掌控的是你对这件事的心态和你的行动。

You don't have control over what people say and do. And so if somebody is there and they're very quiet, you never really know what's going on in their mind. You don't know if they're feeling anxious or shy. They don't feel like they have something to add or they're really enjoying themselves. What you do have control over is your mindset about it and your actions.

对吧？所以尽量不要带着负面的评判去看待。相反，等那场群体对话结束后，你可以私下把那个人拉到一边，轻声问：嘿，你还好吗？你今天特别安静，还是其实挺开心的？问些问题，试着了解他们的视角。

Right? So trying not to come from a place of judgment, negative judgment about it. And instead, what you could do is after that group conversation has ended, you could pull that person aside privately and just say like, hey, are you okay? You seem really quiet, or was that fun for you? Ask ask them questions to try and learn learn their perspective.

我喜欢“先带着善意”这个出发点。我们收到一位叫Deborah的听众留言，她说：我想分享，有时候一个人不问问题，并不是冷漠或自我，而是害怕显得多管闲事、没分寸或很尬。我从来没想过“词穷”会发生在我身上，可一到要问问题，我的大脑就彻底当机。所以听到Deborah这样的人发声，其实挺有帮助的。

I like the idea of starting with, compassion. We got a note from a listener named Deborah, who wrote in to say, I wanted to share that it may not be disinterest or self centeredness that keeps someone from asking questions, but fear of appearing nosy or tone deaf or lame. Being at a loss for words doesn't seem like a problem I would ever have. But when it comes to asking questions, my brain absolutely freezes. So I guess it's useful to hear someone like Deborah.

有时候，沉默的人并不是在蹭话题，而是被如何加入吓得僵住了。

Sometimes a silent person is not just free riding on the conversation, but is petrified about how to enter it.

没错，沉默常常是恭敬与尊重的表现。有趣的是，公共演讲总强调“要鼓励大家发声”，但很多时候，不说话是一种可爱且深思熟虑的选择——当你觉得自己没什么可补充，或者不想打断别人的精彩分享时。

That's right. Silence is often a sign of deference and respect. And, it's funny. Public rhetoric so much is about like, well, let's empower people to speak up. But often not speaking is a really lovely, very considered choice if you don't feel like you have something to add.

或者你觉得：哇，大家聊得正热，我不想打断，他们在互相分享故事。所以常常选择安静是体贴、礼貌的表现，而外人很难分辨。如果像Deborah这样的人和Eduardo同组，Eduardo因Deborah不说话而恼火，问题就变成了：怎样让他们私下沟通彼此心里的想法——Eduardo恼她沉默，Deborah却怕提问失礼。两人其实都出于好意，需要知道对方的心思。

Or if you feel like, oh, other people are on a roll, and I don't wanna interrupt that they're sharing these stories with each other. So very often the choice to be quiet is kind and very polite, and you can't really tell the difference. So if someone like Deborah is in a group with Eduardo and Eduardo is feeling annoyed that Deborah is not speaking, the question becomes how do we get them to communicate with each other about what's going on privately in their minds, where Eduardo is feeling annoyed that Deborah is not talking and Deborah's sort of sitting there feeling like, well, I don't wanna ask a question that's rude. So they're both coming from with with virtuous motives and and and sort of need to know that about each other.

正如Deborah所说，有些人不敢提问是怕显得冒昧。但另一位叫Roselyn的听众写信说，她问了个问题后才发现自己踩雷了。

So as Deborah pointed out, some people hesitate to ask questions because they're worried about coming across as intrusive. But a listener named Roselyn wrote in about asking a question and then realizing she had made a blunder.

成年后我明白要对别人表示关心，于是问一位新朋友是不是在我们社区租房住

As an adult and understanding the importance of showing interest in others, I asked a new friend if they were renting their house in

的

our

neighborhood。我的本意是想了解他们是否满意这个社区、有没有长住的打算。结果这人把我拉到一边，让我别再问这个问题，尤其别当众问。他们觉得被冒犯，因为言下之意似乎是：如果连房都买不起只能租。我等于当众把这事广播给了所有人。

neighborhood. My thinking was to find out if they were happy with the neighborhood and wanted to stay permanently. This person pulled me aside and asked me not to ask them that question again, especially in front of others. They were offended by my questions since the perceived implication was that if they rent, they can't afford to buy. And I had effectively broadcast that to everyone.

Alison，先谈谈对话中的“地雷”吧。我不觉得Roselyn是想冒犯谁，但看起来她还是让人不舒服了。

So talk a moment, Alison, about landmines in conversation. I don't believe that Roselyn was trying offend, but it looks like she gave offense.

没错。Roselyn，别自责。我们天天都会这样。我觉得关键点是：问题本身并不冒犯。很多时候，问题并不过分，话题也不敏感，真正敏感的是语境。

That's right. Roselyn, don't beat yourself up. We all do this all the time. I think there's something an important point here, which is the question itself wasn't offensive. And this is often the case that questions are not offensive, topics aren't sensitive, but what is sensitive is the context.

我听到一半时，Roselyn说“当时还有别人在场”，我一点都不意外。一旦不是一对一，一旦第三个人拉把椅子坐下，甚至更多人围观，羞耻感就可能溜进对话。想象一下，如果Roselyn问的是同一句话，但只和那位朋友私下聊，多半没事，甚至可能让两人更亲近，朋友会说：“说实话，我还买不起房，有点难为情。”

I wasn't surprised at all in listening to this question that in the middle, Roselyn said, it was in front of other people. As soon as there it's no longer a one on one conversation, as soon as a third person pulls up a chair or even more people are there, the potential for shame enters the conversation. So imagine if Rosalyn had asked that exact same question, but it had been one on one with this friend. It probably would have been fine. And maybe it would have even been a place where they could have become closer and this friend said, you know, I feel a little embarrassed that I'm not able to buy a house yet.

但在群体对话里，这些看似微小的举动，因为观众更多、被评判的风险更大，原本不敏感的问题也可能变得咄咄逼人、令人尴尬，甚至让人羞耻。

But these small moves in conversation in groups, there's so many more people watching and the potential for judgment that even questions that in another context would not be sensitive can come much more threatening and sort of embarrassing and filled with the potential for shame.

这里是“你的问题有答案”环节，我们把研究者请回来回答听众提问。广告之后，Alison Woodbrooks会解答如何改善与伴侣、孩子、朋友的对话。您正在收听Hidden Brain，我是Shankar Vedantam。这里是Hidden Brain。

This is Your Questions Answered, our segment in which we bring researchers back to answer listener questions. After the break, Alison Woodbrooks will answer questions on how to improve conversations with your partner, children, and friends. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain.

我是Shankar Vedantam。Alison Woodbrooks是哈佛商学院的行为科学家。多年来，她研究对话科学。二月我们曾播出与Alison的系列访谈，链接已放在本期节目的简介里。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. Allison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. For many years now, she has studied the science of conversation. We featured Alison's work in a series of conversations in February. You can find the links to those conversations in the show notes for today's episode.

Alison，在我们最初的对话里，你教我“ZQ”这个词，指“零提问者”。通常ZQ者出现在第一次或第二次约会，但也可能出现在生活的其他场景。听众Gene想知道，在友情里如何对付ZQ者。

Alison, in our original conversation, you taught me the term ZQ, which refers to someone who is a zero questioner. Now, typically, ZQers show up on first or second dates, but they can also show up in other parts of our lives as well. Here's listener Gene wondering how to navigate z q's in friendships.

明天我要和两位认识六十年的朋友吃午饭。她俩都是ZQ，但这远不是全部。我周围几乎人人都是ZQ，几乎所有朋友和熟人都这样。提问的永远是我。

I'm gonna have lunch tomorrow with two friends I've known for sixty years. Both are z q's, but they are far from the only ones. Most everyone I'm around is a z q. Nearly all of my friends and acquaintances are z q's. I'm always the one asking questions.

追问的也是我，带话题议程的也是我。我该甩掉这些朋友和熟人，换一批新的吗？

I'm always the one asking follow-up questions. I'm the one who brings an agenda to a conversation. Do I need to ditch these friends and acquaintances and get new ones?

Alison，你怎么看？

What do you think, Allison?

哦，Jean，这是个很棒的问题。我想很多人对他们生活中的某些人都会有这种感觉。这也是我自己一直在思考的问题。对话是一个让我们深刻反思我们能控制什么、不能控制什么的地方。我的意思是，归根结底，你无法强迫别人问你问题。

Oh, Jean, it's such a great question. I think many people feel this way about certain people in their lives. It's it's one that I keep in mind too. Conversation is a place that profoundly makes us reflect about what we have control over and what we don't have control over. I mean, ultimately, you can't force other people to ask you questions.

你知道，在一段关系的初期，我想，比如说在约会中，这是一个合理的理由，可以说，你知道吗？也许我不想和这个人进行第二次约会。但一旦你们处于一段长期的友谊或长期的关系中，而那位朋友或你的浪漫伴侣，如果他们对你生活表现出的好奇或兴趣不够，或者他们没有问你问题，这真的让你很困扰，或者也许他们不问别人问题让你很烦，你不得不忍受他们的习惯，观察他们的习惯，你会感到尴尬。我认为，如果你们处于一个良好、稳固、互信的关系中，这是你可以考虑给他们反馈的事情。这是一个很大的前提。

You know, at the beginning of a relationship, I think, let's say in dating, it's a legitimate reason to say, you know what? Maybe I don't wanna go on a second date with this person. But once you're in a long term friendship or a long term relationship and that friend or your romantic partner, it's if it's really bothering you that they're not showing more curiosity or interest about your life or they're not asking questions, or maybe it's bugging you that they're not asking questions to other people and you have to sort of suffer through their habits observing their habits and you feel embarrassed. I do think if you're in a good, sturdy, trusting relationship, this is the kind of thing you could think about giving them feedback about. That is a big if.

对吧？你需要处于一个真正积极、信任、充满爱的环境中，才能说，你知道吗？我真的很希望你能多问我一些问题。你可能会学到一些很棒的东西。他们可能会说，哦，我不问是因为我总担心那样太八卦，或者我知道你不太喜欢谈论自己，所以我不问。

Right? Like, you need to be in a really positive, trusting, loving place to be able to say, you know what? I would really love for you to ask me more questions. And you might learn something really great. They might say, oh, I don't because I always worry that it's too nosy, or I know that you don't love talking about yourself, which is why I don't ask.

这是一种勇敢的对话方式，可能会挖掘出新的信息，即使是在一段长期的友谊或关系中。

That's the kind of brave, conversational thing that might unearth new information even in a in in an old long term friendship or or relationship.

你知道，当Gene说他认识这两位朋友已经六十年了，我心里想，嗯，你应该告诉他们，你知道吗，也许你应该多问我一些问题。但当我这么说的时候，我意识到自己很虚伪，因为我在想到一个我认识很久的人，他在对话中从不问任何问题。过了一段时间，我发现，你知道，我尽量避免这个人。我其实并不期待和这个人一起出去玩，但我一直没有勇气告诉他们，你知道吗，这就是原因。我觉得，你知道，你应该多问一些问题。

You know, when Gene says that he's known these two friends for sixty years, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, you should tell them, you know, maybe you should be asking me more questions. But I realize as I say that that I'm feeling hypocritical because I'm thinking about somebody whom I've known for a long time who never asks any questions in in conversations. And after some time, I'm finding that, you know, I try and avoid this person. I'm not I don't look forward to actually, you know, hanging out with this person, but I haven't had the courage to actually tell them, you know, here's why. I think, you know, you should be asking more questions.

以一种有趣的方式，这是对你有多重视这段关系的一个迷人考验。因为我认为随着时间的推移，这些小事会积累起来，可能会把我们推开，也可能让我们更亲近。这种决定是否给出反馈的选择，是一种考验，嗯，你希望这个人在你未来的生活中扮演什么角色？你能容忍到什么程度？

In an interesting way, it's a it's a fascinating test of how much do you value that relationship. Because I think over time, these are the sort of small things that accumulate that do push us apart or can bring us closer. And this sort of decision of do I give this feedback or not is a test of, well, how what do you want this person to be in your life going forward? How much can you how much can you tolerate?

是的。另一个让很多听众困扰的问题是打断的话题。这是Dwight说的。

Yeah. Another issue that bothered a lot of listeners was the topic of interruptions. Here's Dwight.

我发现自己被打断了好几次，最常发生的是在我的近亲家人身上。我怎样才能阻止这种情况发生，或者让他们注意到我不欣赏这种行为？

I find myself being interrupted several times, most frequently by my close family. How do I stop that from happening or draw their attention to the fact that I don't appreciate it?

这是一个我非常关心的话题，Dwight。我听到你的声音了。我想区分一下，我想这可能会对你有帮助，Dwight，也希望对其他人也有帮助。打断有两种类型。一种是某人打断你，但继续同一个话题；另一种是他们打断你，然后跳到不相关的话题。

This is a topic very near and dear to my heart, Dwight. I hear you. I wanna I wanna draw a distinction that I think you might find helpful, Dwight, and I hope others do too. Interruptions come in two flavors. One is when someone interrupt cuts you off and stays on the same topic versus they cut you off and they jump cut to something unrelated.

同话题的打断其实挺好的。这是对方非常投入、在认真听的表现，他们对你说的内容太兴奋了，等不及你完成句子或陈述，这仍然可能让人恼火。对吧？他们还是打断了你，让你无法完成思路，但这表明你们在建立联系，你们之间有热烈的互动。另一方面，离题打断是我们通常想到的那种，你知道，那个混蛋打断别人，改变话题，因为他们不感兴趣。

On topic interruptions are actually pretty great. It's a sign that the person you're talking to is very engaged, and they're listening, and they're so excited about where you're going that they can't wait for you to finish your your sentence or your statement, it still can be annoying. Right? It's still they're still cutting you off so you can't finish your thought, but it is a sign that you are connecting and that you have this bubbling back and forth. On the other hand, off topic interruptions are this kind that we think of, you know, the jerk who cut someone off and changes a subject because they're not interested.

这其实挺无礼的，也很让人沮丧。所以我想提醒你，德怀特，想一想你遇到的是哪一种。如果是积极的那种，也就是与话题相关的打断，也许可以试着多怀一点感激，换个角度想：哦，原来他们是因为在乎我，或者对我们的话题太投入，才等不及我说完。但如果是那种糟糕的情况——对方真的对你说的不感兴趣，直接跳到别的话题——那你或许可以考虑给他们反馈：嘿，说实话，你总把话题从我身上移开，不仅让我恼火，还有点受伤。

That is actually quite rude and very frustrating. So I would I would nudge you, Dwight, to think about, which type is happening to you. And if it's the positive flavor, the on topic interruption, maybe to try to just feel foster a little bit more gratitude, sort of do the reframe of like, oh, yeah, this is happening because they love me or they they care so much about what we're talking about, they can't possibly wait for me to finish. Or if it's the sort of bad kind where someone is truly not interested in what you're saying and is shifting to something else, then that's a a situation where you might think about giving them feedback. Like, hey, it actually makes it makes me feel not only annoyed, but probably a little hurt that you're constantly switching the conversation away from me and my ideas.

就想让你知道我的感受。如果对方是跟你很亲近的人，他们应该在意，应该认真对待。

Just wanted to let you know that's how I'm feeling. And if it's people who are really close to you, they should they should care. They should take that seriously.

我们收到一位听众凯特的来信，她在某种程度上提出了打断的新维度，关乎人们进入对话的时机。下面请听凯特的说法。

We we got an interesting note from a listener, Kate, who in some ways raises a new dimension of interruptions that I think has to do with the timing of when people enter conversations. Here's Kate.

我常常误判对话中的停顿，结果在对方只是喘口气、还没说完时就插话了。我安慰自己说，可能因为我在英国长大，不同文化的对话节奏不一样。但我怀疑这只是借口。我们到底该怎么判断什么时候轮到自己说话？

I often seem to misjudge conversational pauses, and find myself interrupting someone who has simply taken a breath, not finished their thought. I tell myself it might be because I grew up in The UK, and conversational pace is probably different in different cultures. But I suspect that's just an excuse. How can we tell when it's our turn to speak?

你怎么看，艾莉森？因为这在某种程度上是个深刻的问题。正如你指出的，对话这支管弦乐队没有指挥，没人宣布现在该弦乐进场、现在该小提琴稍微收一点。没人组织对话，所以大家只能猜测对方什么时候说完，才能开口。

What do you think, Allison? Because in some ways, this is actually a profound problem. As you've pointed out, you know, there's no conductor for the orchestra of a conversation. No conductor who says, you know, now it's time for the string section to come in, and now it's time for the the violins to quiet down just a bit. There's no there's no one organizing the conversation, so people have to guess when someone is done talking before they can jump in.

要是我们对“对方何时说完”的估计各不相同呢？

What if we all have different estimations of when someone has finished?

这是个好问题。我认为这正是与某些人亲近、或熟悉某种文化的一部分。这种文化学习或关系学习就包括：了解对方偏好的“下一个人该等多久才开口”、以及“我截断别人或抢先说话有多可被接受”。这可能是文化差异，也可能是你们关系里自成的规范与平衡。不过，要是有人觉得自己可能插得太快——

It's a great question. I think this is part of what it means to, get close with certain people or to become familiar with a certain culture. This is part of that cultural learning or that sort of relational learning is learning people's preferences about about how long should we wait before the next person talks, how how acceptable is it for me to cut people off or to jump in before they're done. And and it might be it can be a cultural thing, but it also can just be part of your shared reality in a relationship where you develop your own norms and equilibrium of like what's acceptable. But I think someone like this who's feeling like, oh, maybe I'm jumping in too soon.

这是可以练习的，可以对自己说：今天或这场对话里，我要更耐心一点，确保让伙伴完全说完再开口，就当给自己做个小实验。我自己就常做这种实验，觉得很有用。

It's the kind of thing that you could work on and just say, oh, I'm gonna try it today or in this conversation to be a little bit more patient. I wanna make sure I let my partner finish all the way before I jump in and do it as a little test for yourself. I I constantly do this kind of test for myself, and I find it quite helpful.

凯瑟琳写信描述了她的情况：她说话节奏快，喜欢一来一往；她男友则喜欢在对话中留些空间，花时间斟酌回应。下面是凯瑟琳的描述。

Catherine wrote to us about her situation. She is more of a fast paced talker. She likes a lot of back and forth. Her boyfriend enjoys having a little more space in conversations, and he likes time to consider his responses. Here's Catherine describing their interactions.

我想问问那些对话风格不同的人们，会不会有时感到有点迷失，或者被我们这些喜欢快节奏、甚至互相搭话的人带着跑？你们能给需要多一点时间消化对话再回应的人一些建议吗？

I'm wondering for those people who have that different type of conversational style, if they sometimes feel a little bit lost or a little swept along by those of us who like that more rapid fire, sometimes even talking over each other style, Is there any advice that you could offer for someone who maybe needs a little more time to process a conversation before responding?

换句话说，说话快的人和说话慢的人能相处得来吗，艾莉森？

In other words, can fast talkers and slow talkers get along, Allison?

我当然希望如此。就是这样。我，凯瑟琳，我我我非常认同这一点，在我自己的婚姻里。我觉得可以，但我认为，意识到自己和他人的风格是成为良好沟通者的重要一环，对吧？

I sure hope so. That's it. I Catherine, I I I very much resonate with this, in my own marriage. I think yes, but I think, having awareness of your own style and other style is a huge part of being good communicators. Right?

所以，做一个友善的交谈者意味着理解对方的需求和偏好，无论你自己的需求和偏好是什么，并且努力——不懈地关注他们需要什么，并尽力满足。所以，如果你是个像凯瑟琳一样的快语速者，你觉得对话节奏太快，开始让你的伴侣感到烦躁，或者他们感到迷失，或者他们需要更多空间，那么在对话中放慢节奏、退一步，可以是一种善意的举动，甚至建议说，嘿，我们稍微休息一下。你稍微想一想。我去拿点喝的，或者一杯水，然后回来我们再继续。

So being a kind conversationalist means understanding your partner's needs and preferences. No matter what your needs and preferences are and and trying to fulfill you know, relentlessly focus on what they need and trying to fulfill it. So if you feel if you're a fast talker like Catherine and you feel like the conversation's moving too quickly and it's starting to annoy your partner or they're feeling lost or they need more space, then slowing down, pulling back during the conversation can be an act of kindness or even suggesting, hey, let's take a little break. You think about this for a little bit. I'm gonna go grab a drink and and or a, you know, a glass of water, and then I'll come back and we'll pick it back up.

你可以送出这样的“礼物”——留出空间，或者只是问一句：我是不是说得太快了？我意识到我现在太兴奋了。你需要我怎么做？反过来也一样。凯瑟琳的伴侣也可以这样重新理解：我知道我可能会因为你节奏太快而迷失或烦躁，但这也是你特别、令人兴奋、有趣的地方。

You can give gifts like that of of spaciousness or even just asking question of like, am I moving too fast? I realize I'm getting too excited right now. What do you need from me? And the same is true in the opposite direction. So Catherine's partner can do this reframe of like, I know I'm I can get lost or get annoyed with you moving so quickly, but that's part of what makes you special and exciting and fun to talk to.

所以责任也在他这边，可以说，嘿，也许我们慢一点，也许我们休息一下，或者就说，嘿，我真的很欣赏你的高能量，但让我我们先喘口气。

So the responsibility is also in his court to say, hey, maybe let's slow down, maybe let's take a break or just say like, hey, I really appreciate the high energy, but let me let's take a little breath here.

广告之后，艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯将继续回答你们关于如何改善对话的问题。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

After the break, Alison Woodbrooks will answer more of your questions on how to improve conversations. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

好的对话常常让人感觉毫不费力。我们与某人同步，玩笑和笑声不断，我们感到快乐和投入。然而，许多对话并不轻松。它们显得尴尬、生硬或令人沮丧。行为科学家艾莉森·伍德布鲁克研究对话的科学。

Good conversations often feel effortless. We're in sync with someone, the jokes and laughter are flowing, and we feel happy and engaged. Many conversations, however, are not effortless. They feel awkward, stilted, or upsetting. Behavioral scientist Alison Woodbrooke studies the science of conversation.

她是《说话：对话的科学与做自己的艺术》一书的作者。艾莉森，我们有一些听众来信，谈到个性对对话的影响。这里有一条来自南希的留言：如果你像审问一样连珠炮地问一个内向的人很多问题，不给他们喘息，他们就会变得被动。在对话中留出舒适的停顿空间，似乎是重要的一环。

She's the author of Talk, The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves. Alison, we had some listeners write in about the effects of personality on conversation. Here's a note from Nancy. If you interrogate someone, especially an introvert, with numerous questions without pause, they're going to become passive. Allowing space for a comfortable pause seems like an important part of conversation.

我们怎样才能学会在对话中必要的沉默里感到自在，而又不让对话中断？把南希的问题再拓展一点，艾莉森，你能谈谈个性差异以及它们如何影响对话风格吗？

How can we learn to be comfortable in the necessary silences of conversation without leaving the conversation? To broaden out Nancy's question a little bit, Alison, can you talk a moment about personality differences and how they affect conversational styles?

当然。我觉得，你知道，差异——世界上有这么多人，每个人都极其不同。我们往往很关注：我的个性特质如何影响我在对话中的行为？我的优势和劣势是什么？我认为这些反思可以非常有成效。

Absolutely. I think, you know, differences, but there are so many people in the world, and everyone is incredibly different. And we have a tendency to think a lot about how does my how do my personality traits affect my behavior in conversation? What are my strengths and weaknesses? I think these reflections can be very productive.

它们在对话中的一种表现，就是人们对沉默、节奏以及个人偏好的习惯与舒适度截然不同。听起来南希非常体贴，她问了一个很温柔的问题：当我面对那些需要更多空间、需要更多停顿的人时，我们该怎么做？我们知道，在陌生人或初识者之间，想要实现“舒适的沉默”很难，因为一旦对话出现空白，你就会恐慌，觉得自己没能完成“互相了解、让对话持续”的任务。但随着关系延续、彼此越来越熟悉，沉默不仅变得可以接受，而且会变得美好。

And one of the ways that they manifest in conversation is for very different habits and levels of comfort with silence and cadence and what you prefer. It sounds like Nancy is being very kind here. This is a very kind question of, well, when I interact with people who need more spaciousness, who need more pausing, How can we do that? I think, you know, as we said, strangers and new acquaintances, it's quite hard to accomplish this idea of companionable silence because any sort of lull in the conversation gives you that panicky feeling like you're failing the task of getting to know each other and keeping the conversation alive. But as a relationship grows longer and you know someone longer, then silences become not only okay, but really great.

它给你留出坐着思考的空档，也提醒你想起本该提起的话题。所以这个小技巧我觉得很安慰人：想想你们认识了多久。如果已经很久，那么就算在一起不说话，也完全没有问题。

It gives you a place to sit and think and remember to raise topics that you should be raising with each other. So just that that that hack I I think can be quite comforting is think about how long you've known someone. If you've known them a long time, it's okay to be together and and not talking.

克里斯蒂娜提出了一个关于自己注意缺陷多动障碍的问题。

Christina had a question about her attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

作为ADHD患者，社交场合常常让我吃不消，甚至精疲力竭——得捕捉社交线索、问对问题、继续追问等等。我的思维会随时跳来跳去，话题跟着脑子里的念头飞速切换。所以想请教，有没有应对这些困难的技巧或建议。

As someone who has ADHD, it becomes overwhelming for me and actually sometimes quite exhausting to be in social situations, supposed to know the social cues and asking the right questions, follow-up questions, and all that. I tend to jump from subject to subject depending upon what comes into my brain, which can be a lot. Wondering So, any tips or tricks or advice around navigating some of those challenges.

你怎么看，艾莉森？人的大脑各不相同，自然会产生不同的对话风格。

What do you think, Allison? People's brains, of course, are different, and that's going to produce different conversational stats.

没错。如今公共讨论里，ADD、ADHD、自闭症以及内向、外向等性格差异被频繁提及。了解这些自我特质固然有用，但在对话层面，行为背后的成因其实并不重要——无论你是ADD还是单纯内向。如果你觉得社交场合容易让你疲惫、或者话题跳得太快，关键仍是培养自我觉察：认清自己在对话中的长处与短板。这样你就能发挥优势。听起来克里斯蒂娜和我们所有人一样，既有优势也有短板。

That's right. I think there's been a lot of, in in sort of public discourse, there's been a lot of focus on on ADD, ADHD, autism, and and and always a focus on personality differences like introversion and extroversion. And it's helpful to know those things about yourself, but when it comes to conversation, it doesn't really matter where your behaviors come from, whether you're ADD, whether you're just an introvert. If you find that social situations tend to be overwhelming or exhausting or you tend to jump topics too quickly, I think fostering that self awareness about what your conversational strengths and weaknesses are no matter where they come from, is a really good thing to do because you can lean into your strengths. It sounds like Christina has lots of strengths and weaknesses just like all of us.

她似乎很有创造力，擅长把相邻的想法迅速串联、切入新话题。但副作用是，当兴趣减退时，要长时间停留在同一话题上就会很辛苦；强迫自己继续追问也会很耗神。没关系，只要认识到这一点，你就能放大优势，同时持续修补短板。

It sounds like Christina is really creative and good at pulling together adjacent ideas and cutting to new topics quickly. The downside of that is it's probably a lot of work to stay engaged on the same topic for a long time with someone, especially if her interest is is waning. And that is gonna be exhausting, and it is gonna be hard to force yourself to ask follow-up questions if you're, you know, you're not interested anymore. And that's okay. But knowing that about yourself means you can lean into your strengths, and you can constantly sort of work on your weaknesses.

无论我们的长短处来自哪里，每个人都需要这样做。

That's what we all need to do no matter where our strengths and weaknesses come from.

我们收到不少听众来信，询问如何改善家庭对话。这封来自一位自称S女士的听众。她写道：我和丈夫结婚五十多年，经历了任何长期或短期关系都会有的高峰与低谷。

We received a number of emails from listeners about how to improve familial conversations. This first one comes from a listener who called herself Ms. S. She wrote, my husband and I have been married for over fifty years. We've gone through the normal peaks and valleys of any long term or short term for that matter relationship.

如今我们步入金色晚年，我想珍惜每一刻。可当一切都变得例行公事时，我们该如何重新点燃对话的激情与深度？有没有哪种独特而有创意的“例行”方式，能让我们找回曾经的亲密？艾莉森，你怎么看？

Now we are in our golden years, and I want to make the best of every moment we can. How do we reawaken some of the excitement and depth in our conversations when everything seems to be so routine these days? Is there possibly a unique or creative routine that we might adopt to get back some of the earlier intimacy that we've known? What do you think, Allison?

多好的问题啊。我们怎样才能重新点燃火花？我们该怎么做？我喜欢这个问题。它不仅仅是在问“我们怎样才能让关系重新有火花”，而是问“有没有一种例行公事？”

What a question. How do we get the spark back in? How do we do something? And I like this question. It's not saying like how do not only how do we get the spark back into our relationship, but is there a routine?

有没有一件我们可以定期做的事，能轻轻推动我们以不同的方式思考或交谈？当然，你可以尝试很多点子。但归根结底，我认为这取决于“预先思考”这个概念。所以，在你和对方见面之前，先花点时间反思一下：有哪些话题会让我的伴侣感到兴奋和有趣？他们想聊什么？

Is there a thing we could do regularly that helps to nudge us to, think differently or converse differently? Of course, there are lots of ideas that you could try. But ultimately, I think it comes down to this idea of forethought. So before you are together with each other, I think reflecting a little bit about what are some topics that will be exciting and interesting to my partner. What do they want to talk about?

关于他们，我还有什么没发现的？关于我，他们还有什么没发现的？只需在见面前花三十秒预先想一想，就能在真正见面时大大提升提起那些有趣话题的几率。我们往往对最在乎的人最没兴趣、最不够友善，仅仅因为我们习惯了他们在身边。所以给自己一点点推动，反思一下：嘿，他们在乎什么？

What do I have left to discover about them? What do they have left to discover about me? Just a little thirty seconds of forethought before you see them can go a really long way in actually raising those interesting topics once you're together. In a way, we're often the least interested and the least kind to the people that we care about the most because we're just used to being around them. So just a tiny little nudge to yourself of reflecting, hey, what do they care about?

他们对什么感到兴奋？我们怎样才能在下次聊天中利用这一点？这会大有帮助。

What are they excited about? How can we how can we leverage that in our next conversation, can go a long way.

下一个问题来自克里斯蒂。

This next question is from Christy.

我想知道，和青少年聊天时有什么好问题可以问。我的孙子刚进入青春期，我发现我们的关系真的变了。我非常想在他人生的这个阶段参与进去，但我发现和他交谈很困难。非常感谢。

I was wondering if you could give an idea of good questions when talking with teenagers. My grandson has just gone into his teenage years, and I found that our relationship has really changed. I would really like to be part of his life in his teenage years, And I've found it difficult to talk with him. Thank you so much.

艾莉森，你有没有找到好的方法来弥合代际对话的鸿沟？

Have you found good ways to bridge generational divides in conversations, Allison?

这是个非常有趣的问题。我觉得要记住的一点是，青少年虽然看起来已经是完整的人，但他们其实还在学习如何对话。学会成为一个好的交谈者可能是最重要的技能，而他们仍在学习中。我认为作为父母或任何与青少年互动的人，有一点很有帮助：我们的工作是帮助他们学会这些对话技巧。所以，即使我们和他们之间的对话本身并不精彩，你也应该感到欣慰——即便谈得不顺利，那也绝对是在帮助他们学会如何与其他人、朋友、老师、教练交谈。

This is such a fascinating question. Think I something to keep in mind with teenagers is that they are just learning to have conversations even though they appear to be, you know, fully formed human beings. Learning to be a good conversationalist is probably the most important skill and they're very much still learning it. I think as parents or really anyone who interacts with a teenager, something I find helpful to remember is that our job is to help them learn those conversational skills. So even if the conversations we are having with them directly aren't that great, you should feel good knowing that even when it doesn't go well between the two of you, that's definitely helping them learn how to have conversations with other people, with their friends, with their teachers, with their coaches.

归根结底，成年人在青少年生活中的职责就是帮助他们成为最好的自己。所以，从某种角度说，这甚至不是关于你。尽管我们都想和青少年有愉快的对话，但你不能指望每一次和青少年的对话都深刻、精彩，他们不会总是夸你，也不会总是回问你问题。你未必总能找到该问的正确问题，他们也不想把自己是谁、在想什么全部分享出来，因为他们自己也不知道。

And ultimately, that's an adult's job in a teenager's life is helping to make them the best person they can be. And so in a way, it's almost not about you, even though we I know we all wanna have delightful conversations with our teenagers, but you shouldn't expect every conversation with a teenager to be deeply rewarding or great, or they're not gonna always give you compliments. They're not gonna ask you questions back. You're not gonna figure out what the right questions to ask them are. They don't wanna share everything about who they are, what they're thinking about because they don't know.

他们还不知道自己是怎样的人，他们正在摸索。所以，给自己——当然也要给青少年——一些宽容，是一种很好的心态。

They don't know who they are yet. They're just figuring it out. And so giving ourselves and certainly giving some grace to our teenagers is a is a great mindset to have.

一位名叫Becky的听众有一个后续问题，关于如何帮助年轻人成为更好的谈话者。这是她提出的问题。

A listener named Becky had a follow-up question about how to help younger people become better conversationalists. Here she is.

你会告诉孩子哪五件事，帮助他们成长为更好的谈话者？特别是对于那些过去有创伤、身边也没有优秀谈话榜样的孩子？谢谢。

What would be five things that you would tell a kid to help them grow into being a better conversationalist, especially with some of our kids that have traumas in their past and maybe don't have great conversationalists around them? Thank you.

你怎么看，Allison？有没有一张速查表？

What do you think, Allison? Is there a cheat sheet?

有的。其实整本书就是，对吧？就是谈话框架里的所有内容。在对话开始前准备好话题。我觉得这对孩子们帮助很大，只要一点点提前思考。

There is. I mean, it's my whole book, right? It's all of the things in the talk framework. Prep topics before a conversation starts. I think that could help a ton of kids, just a tiny bit of forethought.

当话题开始冷场时，自信地切换话题。保持多问问题的思维方式。如果你是孩子或青少年，哪怕每次对话只问一个问题，也会是巨大的进步，尤其是追问。听到青少年追问，你会想：哇，这孩子太棒了。还要学会赞美别人。

Switch topics confidently when they start to lag. Have a mindset to ask more questions. This if you are a if you're a kid or a teenager who can even ask one question per conversation, you're gonna be it's gonna be such a huge win for you, especially follow-up questions. I mean, you hear a teenager ask a follow-up question and you're like, wow, that kid is amazing. Giving people compliments.

如果你心里对某人有好的想法，就说出来。这显示你自信、有能力，并且真的关心别人。所以，Shankar，我们谈到的所有这些要点，越能帮助孩子学会，他们在人生中就会越顺利。

If you think something nice in your mind about someone, say it out loud. It shows that you are confident and competent and you really care about people. Yeah. So sort of all of the things that we've been talking about, Shankar, the more that we can help our kids learn to do those things, the better they're going to do in their lives.

好的对话需要一个愿意或渴望参与的伙伴。很多人很难找到这样的人。最后一个问题关于我们如何帮助所爱之人和我们进行更好的对话。这是一位要求匿名的听众的问题。结婚近三十年，我一直找不到办法和丈夫讨论我们的互动方式、彼此说话的方式，而不让他产生防御心理。

So good conversations require a partner who is willing or eager to engage. Many people struggle to find such a person. This last question is about how we can help loved ones to have better conversations with us. Here's the question from a listener who asked to remain anonymous. After almost thirty years of marriage, I have not been able to find a way to talk to my husband about how we interact, how we talk to each other without making him feel defensive.

即使我把自己也纳入“希望我们一起改变互动模式以更有建设性”的范围，他的本能仍是封闭自己，不听或误听我的话。现在我怕问题已根深蒂固。我有没有办法和他谈而不让他关闭自己？你怎么看，Allison？

Even if I include myself in how I would like us to change our dynamic in order to be more constructive, his instinct is to close-up and not hear what I say or to mishear it. Now I'm afraid the problem is carved in stone. Is there something I can do to talk to him without shutting him down? What do you think, Allison?

我想很多人能共鸣这个问题，它确实很难。尤其在一段关系里经过多年磨合，人会形成习惯和沟通定式。很多夫妻去做伴侣治疗，就是想打破“攻击-防御”或争吵的循环。我听说这位提问者已经尝试“我先示弱，希望他也愿意敞开心扉”，但似乎无效，不过这是一种办法。

I think a lot of people can relate to this question, and it's a hard one. I think we do especially, you know, hardened over so many years in a relationship with someone, you get in habits and in ruts, communication ruts. It's why so many couples go to couples therapy is to try and sort of break out of these loops of attack and defend or the habits of sort of bickering with each other. I hear that this person has already sort of tried, hey, I'm gonna like offer, I'm gonna be vulnerable with them to try and trigger their reciprocity about being vulnerable. And that doesn't sound like it's working, but that's one option.

另一种办法可以说是“用善意淹没”：如果你用另一种方式打破沟通模式，比如开始大量地肯定他、验证他的感受，说出你真正爱和欣赏他的所有地方，让自己处于最稳固、最支持、最温暖的位置。有时当你处于这种快乐状态时，别人更愿意承认或留意到那些小小的失败或裂缝。

Another is literally like the kill them with kindness approach where what if you broke your communication patterns in another way that where you just start giving them lots of affirmation, lots of validation, saying all the things that you really love about them and appreciate, to make sure that you're in like the sturdiest, most supportive, most wonderful place you could be. Sometimes when you're in a happy place in that way, peep other people are more willing to to sort of admit or acknowledge moments of things that little failures or cracks around around the edges.

我的意思是，在某些方面，我听到你说的，艾莉森，是，你知道，当有人指出我们谈话方式中的缺陷时，尤其是，你知道，如果我们，你知道，我们长期以来一直有这个缺陷，这可能很难听进去，而且听起来可能具有威胁性。在某些方面，可以说，通过提升我们的自尊，让我们对自己感觉良好，让我们感到安全，可能会让我们更容易接受困难的信息。

I mean, in some ways, think what I hear you saying, Allison, is that, you know, when someone points out a flaw in our conversational style, especially, you know, if we are you know, we've we've had this flaw for a long time perhaps, this can be hard to hear, and it can be threatening to hear. And in some ways in some ways prepping us, if you will, by by boosting our egos, making us feel good about ourselves, making us feel secure might make it easier to digest difficult information.

所有建设性反馈都是如此。实际上，唯一能提供有效建设性反馈的方法是，你处于一个真正积极、支持性的关系中，并且你已经花了很多时间给这个人正面反馈。这样他们在那一刻就知道，嘿，你觉得我很棒，你爱我，我们关系很好。

That's true of all constructive feedback. Really, the only way that you can deliver effective constructive feedback is if you have you are in a really positive, supportive relationship, and you have spent lots of time giving positive feedback to this person. So that they know that in that moment, like, hey, you think I'm awesome. You love me. We're in a great place.

而且还有一点，就是有一件事我可以改进。因为如果你从建设性的地方开始，每个人都会变得防御。保护自己、保护自己的自尊、保护自己的骄傲，这是人类深刻的本能。一般来说，很难接受，尤其是当你只收到负面消息时。

And also there's this one thing that I could work on. Because if you start from the constructive place, everyone's gonna be defensive. It's a profound human instinct to defend yourself and to defend your ego, defend your pride. It's very hard to be receptive in general and particularly if you're only receiving negative news.

艾莉森·伍德·布鲁克斯是哈佛商学院的行为科学家。她是《谈话：对话的科学与做真实的自己的艺术》一书的作者。艾莉森，非常感谢你今天加入《隐藏的大脑》。

Alison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. She's the author of Talk, The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves. Alison, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

非常愉快，尚卡尔。谢谢你邀请我。

It's been such a pleasure, Shankar. Thank you for having me.

《隐藏的大脑》由隐藏大脑媒体制作。我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·夸雷尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。塔拉·博伊尔是我们的执行制片人。我是《隐藏的大脑》的执行编辑。下周的节目，关于值得过的生活的冥想。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. Next week on the show, Meditations on a Life Worth Living.

我们将继续我们的“U 2.0”系列，邀请哲学家马西莫·皮柳奇。他将带我们走进斯多葛学派的世界，以及为什么他们的智慧延续了近两千年。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。回头见。

We continue our U two point zero series with philosopher Massimo Piliucci. He'll take us inside the world of the Stoics and why their wisdom has survived nearly two thousand years. I'm Shankar Vedanta. See you soon.