升级版你：耐心修炼

这个邮箱地址再重复一遍：feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

That email address again is feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

在一个崇尚即时满足的世界里，人们很容易认为耐心是一种被动的行为，意味着牺牲和咬牙坚持。

In a world that thrives on instant gratification, it's easy to believe that patience is passive something that involves sacrifice and clenched teeth.

在贝勒大学，心理学家莎拉·施尼特卡挑战了这种观点。

At Baylor University, psychologist Sarah Schnitka challenges this idea.

她说，有办法学习耐心的艺术，让耐心变得不那么痛苦。

She says there are ways to learn the art of patience and to make it less painful.

莎拉，你说耐心有三种类型。

Sarah, you say that there are three types of patience.

你把第一种叫做人际耐心？

You call the first interpersonal patience?

是的。

Yes.

第一种类型主要是关于对他人保持耐心，对你的人际关系伴侣、配偶、孩子、同事，以及排队时在你前面、怎么也找不到零钱的那个人保持耐心——毕竟，为什么他们要用现金付款呢？

The first type is really about being patient with other people, being patient with your relationship partners, with your spouse, your children, your coworkers, with the person in front of you in line who can't seem to find the coins to make change because why are they paying in cash?

对吧？

Right?

这些都是我们生活中需要我们耐心对待的人。

This is all the people in our lives who require patience from us.

莎拉，你在生活中有没有发现，当你对关系保持耐心时，这些关系实际上会转变，变得与你最初想象的完全不同？

Have you found that to be true in your life, Sarah, that when you have been patient with the relationships, in fact, they transform and become quite different than what you might have imagined at first?

是的。

Yes.

我确实有这种体会。

I have.

当然，有很多事情会破坏关系，也会让我们对他人感到烦躁。

And, you know, there's lots of things that can be disruptive to a relationship and things that annoy us about others.

但随着我年龄增长，我渐渐明白，你知道吗？

But as I got older, I've learned, like, you know what?

也许我和这位朋友现在并不在同一频道上。

Maybe this friend and I aren't on the same page right now.

我们继续保持联系吧。

Let's still keep in touch.

我可能会试着和他们聊聊。

I might try to talk to them.

但即使我们无法解决这个具体的矛盾，未来仍有可能重归于好；当一个人正经历困难时，如果你过早地放弃一段新的或旧的友谊，那将会失去很多东西。

But even if we can't resolve that specific conflict, we can come back around and that there's something really lost when you give up on a new friendship or even an old one when the person's having a hard time too soon.

而持续对他人保持耐心，才能让深厚关系的丰富性真正融入你的生活。

And that continuing just to be patient with others allows for the richness of deep relationships to really be a part of your life.

而这需要大量的耐心和等待。

And it it just takes a lot of patience and waiting.

所以我们谈到了人际交往中的耐心，但处理工作和生活中的挫折时，也需要耐心。

So we've talked about interpersonal patients, but there is also the patients involved in dealing with setbacks at work and in life.

你能谈谈这种挑战在你生活中的作用吗，莎拉？

Can you talk about the role of this challenge in your own life, Sarah?

我知道在研究生第三年时，你患上了一种神秘的疾病，身体非常虚弱。

I understand that in the third year of grad school, you became very sick with a mysterious illness.

这种病有什么症状？

What were the symptoms of this illness?

哦，那真是一段艰难的时光。

Oh, it was was a really rough time.

有一天半夜我开始呕吐，之后连续几个月都持续呕吐。

I started throwing up one night in the middle of the night, and I proceeded to kind of have chronic vomiting for months on end.

后来确诊后我才知道，我患的是周期性呕吐综合征，这是一种比较罕见的疾病。

I came to find out later after I got a diagnosis, have what's called cyclic vomiting syndrome, which is a pretty rare disorder.

这有点像腹型偏头痛。

It's kind of like abdominal migraines.

它和偏头痛一样源于大脑，但我不头痛，只是会开始呕吐。

So it's in the brain similar to migraines, but instead of getting a headache, I just would start throwing up.

那真的非常艰难。

And it was really, really hard.

我花了六个月才确诊。

It took me six months to find out a diagnosis.

我当时正在研究病人，却突然遭遇了这样的生活磨难，不得不亲身实践我所学的病人护理，并终身应对这种慢性疾病，我这才意识到，这不会自行消失。

And I was studying patients and then given this life hardship where I had to actually practice my patients and deal with this chronic illness now for my entire life, it became apparent that this is not something that would go away.

这是我必须学会管理的事情。

It was something that I have to learn to manage.

我想知道，莎拉，你有没有过因为极度沮丧而想放弃的时候，但同时又觉得自己很虚伪，因为你正在研究病人？

I'm wondering, Sarah, if there were times when you felt so frustrated that you wanted to give up, but also felt somewhat hypocritical because you were studying patients.

我确实有过这种感觉。

So I definitely felt that.

但也有其他时候，我发现对病人的研究反而鼓励我给予身体所需的时间。

But then there were other times when I also found that my research on patients encouraged me to take the time my body needed.

我想我是在学习，你知道吗？

I think I was learning, you know what?

一味硬撑并不总是正确的做法。

Pushing through is not always the answer.

我给自己定了一些小规则，比如：如果你感到恶心或身体不适，也许可以躺下休息二十分钟，看看这种休息、练习正念，或者花点时间放松，而不是一味逼自己继续工作、写作，而是给自己一点时间，以更温和的方式对待自己。

And I would actually make little rules for myself of like, okay, if you feel nauseous or are feeling ill, maybe go lay down for twenty minutes and see if that rest and kind of practicing mindfulness or kind of taking time instead of just trying to push through on my work and write, taking the time and coming back and being a little bit more gentle with myself.

我发现，当我这么做时，整个月的工作效率反而更高，真正完成了该做的事。

I found when I did that, I would be much more successful across the course of a month and actually getting my work done.

所以我试着去学习，而不是像RG三那样一味地硬撑。

And so trying to learn instead of being like RG three with just always pushing forward.

我不在乎我的身体。

I don't care about my body.

我的恶心感无足轻重。

My nausea doesn't matter.

我就要继续往前冲。

I'm just gonna push forward.

这会导致我病得非常严重，甚至不得不住院接受补液和治疗脱水。

It would lead to, like, getting so sick that I would have to be hospitalized for fluids and dehydration.

所以我学会了西蒙·迈尔斯的教训：倾听自己的心理健康，倾听自己的身体健康，优先照顾它们，因为如果我的身心状态不好，就无法实现其他目标。

So just learning the lesson of Simone Miles of listening to my own mental health, listening to my own physical health, prioritizing those because without my body and my mind in a good place, I couldn't achieve my other goals.

所以，早点学到这个教训真的很有用，因为我觉得很多人要到晚年才明白这一点。

And so it was a really useful lesson to earn learn earlier in life because I think a lot of us don't learn that till later in life.

除了与他人互动带来的挑战和生活困境带来的压力外，我们对日常琐事也会感到不耐烦。

So besides the challenges that come with our interactions with other people and the challenges that come with these life hardships, there's also the impatience we feel with daily hassles.

这些情况虽然不至于达到危机或灾难的程度，但依然让人烦心。

Now these don't rise to the level of crisis and catastrophe, but they're still a pain.

对吧，莎拉？

Right, Sara?

我

I

对很多人来说，当他们听到‘耐心’这个词时，会想到堵车或排队等候。

think for a lot of people, when they hear the term patience, they think of being stuck in traffic and stuck in line.

在你生命的六个月里，你很可能都在排队。

And what it is that the six months of life, you'll probably stand in line.

这占了我们大量时间。

Like, this is a huge amount of our time.

当我们在这类日常琐事中练习耐心时，不仅能让当下变得更好，我还认为这也能为应对更大的生活困境和人际关系做好准备。

You know, when we practice our patience in these daily hassles, not only does it improve that moment, but I also like to think of it as good practice for the bigger life hardships and for our relationships.

日常的小烦恼可以作为一种低风险的练习方式，帮助我们为未来可能出现的重大挑战做好准备，比如生病或孩子以新的方式让你沮丧时，你能更好地应对这些可能更为重要的事情。

That the daily hassles might be a nice lower stakes game to practice patience so that you're ready when you have that illness come up or your child frustrates you in a new way, that you're prepared for those things that might actually be more monumental.

我想谈谈你关于如何培养耐心的一些想法。

I want to go over some of your ideas on how we can build, patients.

你说，当我们感到不耐烦时，应该停下来反思这种体验。

You say that one way to do this is that when we're feeling impatient, we should stop reflect on the experience.

我认为大多数人恰恰想做相反的事情。

Now, I think most people want to do exactly the opposite.

他们不想关注自己正在感到不耐烦这一事实。

They don't want to focus on the fact that they are feeling impatient.

事实上，他们只想尽快摆脱这种感觉。

In fact, they want to get rid of that feeling as quickly as possible.

为什么要纠结于它呢，Sara？

What's the point of dwelling on it, Sara?

是的，我觉得这有点反直觉，对吧？

Yes, I think it's somewhat counterintuitive, right?

我们常常认为耐心就是别生气，别生气。

We often think of patients like, don't be upset, don't be upset.

但事实上，这种方法并不奏效。

But we actually find that does not work.

真正有耐心的人并不会试图压抑自己的情绪。

And people who are patient don't actually try to suppress their feelings.

相反，他们会承认这些情绪，并且认为在这个时刻停下来，说‘我真的很沮丧，因为职场上有人这周第十五次问我同一个问题’，或者‘我的伴侣又在发出那种总是有的奇怪声音’，又或者‘我的孩子正在发脾气’，这些都是可以接受的。

Instead, they acknowledge them and that it's okay to take that moment and say, oh, I'm really frustrated with this person in the workplace who is asking me the same question for the fifteenth time this week or my partner who is doing making that funny noise that they always make or my child who's throwing a temper tantrum.

对吧？

Right?

我们实际上会停下来，静一静，说：‘哦，我现在感受到的是这种情绪’，然后让这种情绪暂时存在。

We we actually stop and pause and say, oh, this is what I'm feeling and just let that feeling be there for a moment.

这样做实际上会削弱这种情绪的力量。

That actually removes some of the power of that feeling.

你还会发现，如果你能试着以旁观者的角度来观察这种情绪，而不是仅仅被它淹没，比如对自己说：‘好吧，我现在感受到的是这种情绪。’

And what you also see is if you can almost try to observe that feeling as a third person instead of just feeling it to say, okay, this is what I'm feeling.

我能理解为什么。

I can understand why.

这确实是真正变得有耐心的第一步。

That really is the first step to actually being patient.

你还谈到了你所说的重新评估的价值。

You also talk about the value of something you call reappraisal.

什么是重新评估，莎拉？

What is reappraisal, Sarah?

是的。

Yeah.

重新评估其实就是学会以不同的方式看待一种情境。

So reappraisal is really just this trick of learning to think about a situation differently.

一种常见的重新评估策略是寻找益处。

So one common reappraisal strategy is benefit finding.

在这个情境中，我能注意到什么好的方面？

So what is the good thing that I can notice in this scenario?

我知道对于我自己来说，有时候就是，哦，太好了。

And I know for myself, sometimes it's just, oh, great.

这正是一个练习耐心等待排队的机会。

This is an opportunity to practice my patience waiting in this line.

重新评估还可以包括从他人的角度来思考问题。

Reappraisal could also include thinking about it from someone else's perspective.

所以为什么这个三岁的小孩会躺在地上尖叫和踢腿呢？

So why is this three year old screaming on the ground and kicking?

哦，因为他们还没有能力用语言表达他们想要什么。

Oh, because they don't have the words or the capacities to tell me what they want.

所以这已经是他们能做的全部了，我会去理解他们的感受。

And so this is all they've got, and I'm going to feel for them and how they're feeling.

大量研究显示，这种重新评估是一种非常有效的方式，能帮助我们调节情绪，变得更加有耐心。

And so that reappraisal is just shown across many, many studies just to be a highly effective way of regulating and helping yourself become more patient.

研究人员凯特·斯威尼进行了一项研究，探讨了人们在新冠疫情期间如何度过时间。

The researcher Kate Sweeney ran a study that looked at how people spent their time during the COVID-nineteen pandemic.

她发现，有些人比其他人更能应对自己的不耐烦。

She found that some people were better able to deal with their impatience than others.

你能给我描述一下这项研究发现了什么吗？

Can you describe for me what the study found?

是的。

Yes.

凯特和她的同事发现，当人们能够全身心投入活动并体验到我们所说的‘心流’状态时，这种状态极大地帮助人们应对新冠疫情以及中国在最严格封锁期间的各种压力。

What Kate and her colleagues found is that when people were able to immerse themselves in activities and experience what we call flow, that state really helped people to cope well with COVID nineteen and all the stressors of the pandemic in China, in particular, during the most intense lockdowns.

因此，参与这些心流体验对人们长期有益，不仅在当下有帮助，甚至在研究人员后续跟进时仍能感受到效果。

And so engaging in these flow experiences really help people across time, not just in the moment, but even later when the researchers followed up with them.

那些能够做到这一点的人能够保持耐心，无论是自己做饭还是玩电子游戏——尽管我们常认为后者是负面行为——但他们发现，这些活动实际上能引发心流状态。

People who were able to do that were able to be patient, Whether it was cooking homemade meals or playing video games even, which we often think of as a negative thing, they found that that can actually induce a flow state.

在那个高度不确定的时期，这一点尤为重要。

And this was important in that time of really heightened uncertainty.

你知道吗，有时我排队或等待电话接通时，会拿出手机下盘国际象棋。

You know, I find sometimes when I'm waiting in line or waiting on hold, I I pull out my phone and I'll start playing a game of chess.

大约五六分钟后，我就完全沉浸在游戏里了，当终于有人接电话时，我会想：你干嘛打断我的游戏？

And within about five or six minutes, I'm so absorbed in the game that when someone finally comes on the phone, I'm like, why are you interrupting my game?

这比我要和你谈的任何事情都重要得多。

This is this is far more important than anything I need to talk to you about.

没错。

Exactly.

你怎么这么快就回来了？

How dare you have come back so quickly?

是的。

Yes.

我也有同样的感受。

I I feel the same way.

我旅行时最喜欢写作。

I love to do my writing when I travel.

所以当我正在写东西时，等飞机或在飞机上的时间就过得快多了，心里还想着：天啊，别停。

And so it makes that wait in the airport or on the plane just so much faster when I'm like, oh, no.

航班快要结束了。

The flight's almost over.

我希望时间能更长一点。

I want longer.

是的。

Yes.

这是个好策略。

It's a good strategy.

我们之前在节目中讨论过，Sarah，当追求困难目标时，目标感能让我们更有耐心。

We've talked previously on the show, Sarah, about how purpose can give us patience when it comes to achieving difficult goals.

当我们知道自己为什么要做某件事时，面对过程中的挫折就会更容易承受。

When we know why we are doing something, it becomes easier to bear the setbacks along the way.

谈谈目标感如何帮助我们应对不耐烦。

Talk about the role of purpose in helping us deal with our impatience.

当我们有理由去等待和承受痛苦时，更高的目标感真的能激励我们更好地应对耐心问题。

It can really motivate us to do better when it comes to patients when we have a reason for that waiting and for that suffering that we need a higher order purpose.

一个为什么？

A why?

我为什么要这样继续受苦？

Why do I continue to suffer in this way?

我为什么要耐心等待这件事？

Why should I wait for this thing patiently?

当你有了这个宏大的“为什么”，实践“如何”就会变得容易得多——比如实践重新评估，实践命名情绪，进入心流状态。

When you have that big why, it becomes much easier to practice the how, to actually practice your reappraisal, to practice your naming of the emotion, to get into that flow state.

我们发现，当这种目的超越了自我，它就不再只是关于我、我的快乐和我的积极情绪。

And what we find is that when that purpose is bigger than yourself, it's not just about me and my pleasure and my positive emotions.

相反，它比我自己更宏大。

Instead, it's something bigger than me.

我们的研究发现，当人们拥有这种目标时，他们实际上更能保持耐心，并且随着时间推移在耐心方面成长更多。

We find in our research that when people have that, they're actually able to be more patient and they actually grow more in patients over time.

你曾进行过一项研究，对象是穆斯林青少年在斋月期间。

You ran a study involving Muslim adolescents during the month of Ramadan.

这些青少年在斋月期间做了什么？你们发现了什么，莎拉？

What were these adolescents doing during Ramadan and what did you find, Sarah?

是的。

Yes.

在伊斯兰教中，斋月实际上被称为忍耐之月。

So Ramadan in Islam actually is called the month of patience.

因此，在斋月期间，虔诚的穆斯林从日出到日落都会禁食。

And so during the month of Ramadan, devout Muslims will dry fast from sunrise to sunset.

这意味着在整个白天，他们不能进食或饮水，甚至连水都不行。

So that means no food or drink, not even water across all of daylight.

这是一段极其艰难的时期，但同时也是充满灵性的时刻，穆斯林社群会举行各种特殊的仪式、祈祷和开斋或封斋的餐食。

And this is an incredibly challenging time, but it's also a time of great spirituality and that the Islamic community, you see there are all kinds of special rituals and prayers and meals to break the fast or to begin it.

因此，我们的研究发现，当青少年参与斋月这一神圣时期时，他们的耐心实际上得到了提升。

And so what we found in our research is that when teenagers were engaged in this Ramadan sacred time, that they actually grew in their patients.

更令人惊喜的是，斋月结束后一个月，当他们回归日常普通生活时，仍然保持了部分耐心的提升。

And then what was really cool is that a month after Ramadan was over, so back to just kind of normal daily life, they actually sustained some gains in patients.

所以他们在斋月开始前就已经比以前更有耐心了。

So they were still more patient than before Ramadan had began.

因此，我们解读这里发生的情况是，他们正在经历一种极其艰难的耐心训练，这在当下感觉像是一种煎熬。

So what we interpret is going on here is that they are doing this really difficult training in patients, and it feels like suffering in the moment.

你真的很想喝上一口水，而必须等到太阳下山确实很难熬。

And you really want to be able to get that drink, and having to wait for that sun to set is difficult.

所以当他们为了一个更高的目标练习耐心——为了荣耀真主、融入社群、与他人共同完成这项仪式时，这显然是一种强大的干预，因为我不是为了自己、为了身体健康而这么做。

So when they practice their patience, but do it for a bigger reason to bring glory to Allah and to be a part of their community and do this together with others, it really seems to be a powerful intervention that I'm not doing this for myself, for my physical fitness.

我这么做是因为这是虔诚的穆斯林该做的事，我们是为了这个更高的力量而做。

I'm doing this because this is what good Muslims do, and we are doing this for the sake of this higher power.

这是一种极其有力的体验。

And that is an incredibly potent experience.

我们的数据显示，这种体验确实能长期提升人们的耐心。

And our data show that it indeed has these benefits for patients long term.

我理解这项研究与你之前对参加马拉松训练的年轻成年人所做的研究相互印证了？

I understand that this work has been echoed by other research you did that looked at young adults who were training for marathons?

是的。

Yes.

我们还研究了参加半程或全程马拉松、并加入慈善训练团队的青少年和年轻成年人。

We also looked at adolescents and young adults who were running half or full marathons with a philanthropic training team.

我们发现，如果他们仅仅为了健康和健身而训练，并不一定能在耐心方面有所成长。

And what we found is that they didn't necessarily grow in patients if they were just doing the training for health and fitness reasons.

这个慈善训练团队的宗旨是为非洲约八个国家的清洁用水项目筹款，当他们为了帮助他人或为了精神成长、更接近上帝而跑步时，正是如此。

The philanthropic purpose of the training team was to raise money for clean water efforts in about eight African countries when they were running for the sake of helping those other people or running to grow spiritually to get closer to God.

当他们出于超越自我的动机跑步时，正是在这种训练活动中，他们也在耐心方面得到了成长。

When they ran for those motives that were bigger than themselves, that's when you see them also grow in their patients through this training activity.

我想知道，莎拉，我们能否花点时间谈谈像你这样的科学家们发现的急躁所带来的代价。

I'm wondering, Sarah, if we can take a moment and talk about what scientists like yourself are finding about the costs of impatience.

是的。

Yes.

我们发现，急躁不仅会导致易怒或负面情绪，还会增加心脏病风险，以及应对压力的困难。

We see that impatience leads to not just irritability or negative emotions, but higher risk of heart problems, difficulty handling stressors.

压力开始真正演变为焦虑。

Stress starts to actually become anxiety.

我们发现它会导致自我控制能力下降。

We see it can lead to a lack of self control.

我们还发现，缺乏耐心与孤独感有关。

We also see that impatience is associated with loneliness.

所以我认为这很有道理。

So I think this makes a lot of sense.

如果你无法对他人保持耐心，对他人缺乏耐心，这会给关系带来压力。

If you are unable to be patient with other people and you are impatient toward them, that's gonna be a strain on the relationship.

要建立深层次的联系会更加困难。

It's going to be harder to have those deep connections.

在我们的研究中，我们发现最显著的关联之一是：缺乏耐心与更严重的抑郁症状相关。

Then we also see one of the most robust associations we found in my research is that inpatients is associated with greater depressive symptoms.

相反，耐心有助于随着时间推移缓解抑郁症状。

And conversely, that patients helps to ameliorate depression symptoms over time.

有一种耐心的形式，我认为我们还没有讨论过，萨拉，那就是对自己保持耐心。

There's one form of patience that I think we have not discussed, Sarah, and that is patience with ourselves.

我们已经谈过，我们需要对他人、对困扰我们的疾病、对困难以及对日常生活的烦扰保持耐心。

We've talked about how we need to be patient with others, with the illnesses that afflict us, with hardships, with the hassles of daily life.

但当我们审视自己，尤其是诚实地、批判性地看待自己时，我们会发现自己的缺点和局限。

But as we look at ourselves, and especially if we look at ourselves honestly and critically, we will find flaws and we will find limitations.

而这同样也是一种挫败的来源。

And that is a source of frustration as well.

你能谈谈对自己保持耐心的价值吗？

Can you talk a moment about the value of being patient with ourselves?

对自己保持耐心至关重要。

Patients with ourselves is quite critical.

人们常常对自己抱有比对他人更高的期望。

Oftentimes, people have expectations for themselves that might even be higher than the expectations they have for others.

因此，对自己保持耐心，部分在于认识到我们作为人类的局限性——我们不是超人，我们只是和所有人一样有缺陷的普通人。

And so patience with ourselves is partly recognizing our own limitations as humans, that we are not superhuman, that we are just human beings and flawed like everyone else.

就像我们需要对自己有同理心一样，我们也需要对自己保持耐心，认识到成长——无论是性格、道德、能力还是人际关系方面的成长——都不会一蹴而就，这是一场持久战。

Just like we have to have self compassion, we also have to have patience with ourselves and realize that growth and whether that's growth in kind of our character, our morals, our our abilities, our our relationships that we're not gonna be where we want to be right now and that it's a long game.

曾经有一句名言。

There was a famous quote.

我想是斯坦尼斯拉夫·莱克说的：要变得更有耐心，你首先得有足够的耐心。

I think it was Stanislaw Lecke said, you have to have a lot of patience to become more patient.

有人听完这样的对话后可能会想：好吧，我要变得更耐心，然后急着马上做到，结果却因无法速成而灰心，干脆放弃，说：‘我就是个没耐心的人。’

And, you know, someone might listen to a session like this and say, okay, I'm gonna become more patient and really try to do it quickly and then become discouraged and just give up and say, oh, I'm just an impatient person.

我做不到这一点。

I can't be good at this.

所以我认为，学会耐心是一个缓慢的过程，需要大量的练习。

So I think learning to have patience is a slow go, and it's gonna take a lot practice.

我认为没有人能很快就把这件事做好。

And I don't think anyone gets gets it done very quickly.

莎拉·施尼特克是贝勒大学的心理学家。

Sarah Schnitker is psychologist at Baylor University.

萨拉，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的思维》。

Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

你能否和《隐藏的思维》的听众分享一个关于耐心的故事？

Do you have a story to share with the Hidden Brain audience on the subject of patience?

也许你是一个以特别有耐心著称的人。

Maybe you're someone who's known as exceptionally patient.

是什么帮助你保持冷静？

What helps you to keep your cool?

你是否曾经失去过耐心，并为此付出了巨大代价？

Have you ever lost your patience and paid a huge price for it?

如果你愿意与《隐藏的思维》的听众分享你的个人故事，或者对本期节目有任何问题或评论，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a personal story you would be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, or a question or comment about this episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

请将文件发送至 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

Email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

邮件主题请写：patients。

Use the subject line patients.

这个邮箱地址是 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

That email address again is feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在大学的最后一个学期，年轻的哈里森·福特选修了一门表演课。

In his final semester in college, a young Harrison Ford took an acting class.

他自称是个孤独的人，通过表演来克服自己的羞怯。

A self described loner, he used acting to get over his shyness.

在这个过程中，他沉迷于学习如何讲述故事。

In the process, he became obsessed with learning how to tell a story.

哈里森·福特将表演作为职业，并与一家好莱坞制片厂签订了每周演出的合同，成为一名小有名气的电视剧演员。

Harrison Ford pursued acting as a career and secured a weekly contract with a Hollywood studio as a small time TV actor.

这是一个不错的开端，但他渴望更多。

It was a decent start, but he craved more.

他想成为一颗明星。

He wanted to be a star.

与此同时，这位挣扎中的演员还有一位妻子和两个年幼的儿子。

At the same time, the struggling actor had a wife and two young sons.

他买下了一栋位于好莱坞山上的破旧房屋，并在空闲时间自学如何修缮它。

He had purchased a rundown home in the Hollywood Hills and spent his free time teaching himself to fix it up.

最终，为了支付账单，他决定辞去电视剧合同，成为一名全职木匠。

Eventually, to pay the bills, he decided to quit his TV contract and become a full time carpenter.

但哈里森·福特从未完全放弃出演重要电影角色的梦想。

But Harrison Ford never quite gave up the dream of landing a major film role.

有一天，他在为导演弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉做木工时，遇到了一位老熟人。

One day, he ran into an old acquaintance as he was working on a carpentry project for the director Francis Ford Coppola.

这位熟人是一位名叫乔治·卢卡斯的年轻导演。

The acquaintance, a young director named George Lucas.

这位导演请这位渴望成为电影明星的人为正在试镜的演员对台词。

The director asked the wannabe movie star to read lines with actors auditioning for his new film.

那是一部名叫《星球大战》的小项目。

It was a little project called Star Wars.

剩下的，正如人们所说，就成了历史。

The rest, as they say, is history.

哈里森·福特在二十世纪最重大的电影系列之一中获得了主演角色。

Harrison Ford landed a starring role in one of the most significant movie franchises of the twentieth century.

从那以后，他再也没有做过多少木工活了。

He hasn't done many carpentry gigs since then.

我们经常听到这样的成功故事。

We hear success stories like this all the time.

那位在餐厅打工的女演员，那位暗中写歌的音乐人，那位在广告公司埋头苦干的作家。

The actress waiting tables, the musician ghostwriting songs, the writer toiling at an advertising agency.

他们默默无闻地努力，直到某一天，机遇降临，一举成名。

They labor in obscurity until one fine day, they catch a break and become famous.

这些故事有着无法抗拒的吸引力。

There's something irresistible about these stories.

它们让我们相信，自己也终将迎来转机，也能从事自己热爱的、有意义的工作。

They give us hope that we too will catch a break, that we too will get to pursue meaningful work that we love.

在巴布森学院，詹妮弗·托斯特·卡雷研究着使命感的利与弊。

At Babson College, Jennifer Toste Carra studies the benefits and the costs of having a calling.

她最近做客了我们的节目。

She joined us for a recent episode.

那期节目的标题是：热情 versus 薪水。

It was titled passion versus paycheck.

今天，我们再次欢迎詹妮弗回来，回答听众在热门环节‘你的问题，我来答’中的提问。

Today, we welcome Jennifer back to answer listener questions in our popular segment, your questions answered.

詹妮弗·托斯蒂卡里斯，欢迎再次做客《隐藏的思维》。

Jennifer Tostikaris, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你，尚卡尔。

Thank you so much, Shankar.

能回到这里，我感到无比兴奋。

I am beyond thrilled to be back.

詹，你的研究生导师艾米·里兹涅夫斯基提出了一种框架，帮助我们理解人们如何看待自己与工作之间的关系。

Jen, your graduate school adviser Amy Rizniewski came up with a framework to help us understand how people think about their relationships to work.

她认为，人们会从三种角度看待自己的工作：一份工作、一项事业，或一种使命。

She suggested that people think of their work in one of three ways, as a job, as a career, or as a calling.

请谈谈这三个类别，以及艾米在让人们谈论自己的工作时发现了什么。

Talk about these three categories and what Amy found when she asked people to talk about their work.

简单来说，以工作为导向的人，主要为了工作带来的外在回报而工作。

So just to break them down, a job orientation is when you work primarily for the extrinsic rewards from that work.

所以工作是一种手段，通常是为了获得经济回报。

So work is a means to an end, and it's typically a financial end.

也就是说，你主要为了赚钱而工作，然后在工作之外追求自己的热情，这就是把工作当作一份职业。

So working primarily for the money it provides and maybe then you pursue a passion outside of work, that's a job.

职业导向是指你同样把工作当作实现目标的手段，但这次的目标是晋升到组织层级中，比如沿着典型的职业阶梯向上爬，或在职业群体中获得尊重和核心地位。

A career is when you similarly work as a means to an end, but this time, it is the means to advancing within either an organizational hierarchy, picture climbing the typical career ladder, or gaining respect and centrality in an occupational community.

想象一下，比如那些希望获得他人尊重的程序员。

So picture, like, you know, coders who like to gain the respect of others.

哇哦。

Like, woah.

你写了这段代码。

You wrote that code.

这属于将工作视为一种职业的导向。

That would be a career orientation toward the work.

最后，我们来说说使命感。

Then finally, we have a calling.

当工作是一种召唤时，它不是达到目的的手段，而本身就是一种有意义的目标。

And when work is a calling, it is not a means to an end, but a meaningful end in and of itself.

它带来满足感和热情。

It is a source of fulfillment, of passion.

你常常会全身心投入工作。

You often feel consumed by the work.

而且，虽然不总是如此，但你通常会觉得自己的工作让世界变得更美好。

And often, but not always, you would say your work makes the world a better place.

它是你身份中极其重要的一部分，几乎与生活不可分割，与其他两种类型截然不同。

It's just a major, major part of who you are, pretty much inseparable from life, compared to the other two.

一

One

我发现有趣的一点是，艾米发现，无论人们从事什么工作，只要他们属于这三类中的任何一类，你都可以向三位外科医生、三位会计师或三位记者提出同样的问题，结果会发现，同样的工作对不同的人意义并不相同。

of the things that I find intriguing is that Amy found that people who fell into all three categories regardless of what their jobs were so you could ask the same questions of three surgeons or three accountants or three journalists and find that the same job did not hold the same meaning for different people.

对此，珍，你怎么看？

What do we make from that, Jen?

是的

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

因此，在这个框架中，工作的意义实际上取决于个人的视角。

So the meaning of the work in this framework is really in the eye of the beholder.

正如你所说，两个人从事相同的工作、在同一组织、相同职业，但一个人觉得这只是份工作，另一个人却觉得这是使命。

So just as you said, you can have two people, same job, same organization, you know, same occupation, and one feels it's a job and one feels it's a calling.

这意味着，我可能正和你并肩工作，甚至和你同属一个团队，但我们对这份工作在我们生命中的意义却有着截然不同的感受。

And that means I could be working right alongside you or even with you on a work team, and we feel very differently about about the meaning that that work has within our lives.

我认为艾米发现的另一个有趣之处是，无论从事何种工作，人们在工作、职业和使命这三类中的分布大致各占三分之一，这一规律始终成立。

I think another interesting thing that Amy found is that this distribution of jobs, careers, and callings, which was about a third, a third, and a third across people, in a given population, really held regardless of the type of work.

因此，在专业人士中，这种分布和在行政助理等岗位中一样普遍。

So it was as common in professionals as it was in, for example, administrative assistants.

所以，那种认为‘在组织中层级较低的人更可能把工作视为一份差事，而从事高度沉浸或重要职业的人则更可能视其为使命’的想法是不准确的。

So this notion that, oh, you know, everybody who works or more people who work as a, you know, lower level in the organization feel their work is a job and people with, you know, very immersive or important occupations might feel their work is a calling.

这一点也不成立。

That didn't really hold either.

所以，我认为我们真正应该理解的是，这与其说关乎你做什么，甚至可能更少关乎你本人，而是你与工作的互动创造了意义。

So really, I think what we make of this is that it's less about what you're doing and even maybe less about you and this interaction of you and the job that creates the meaning.

我们上次讨论过这个问题，但你能再提醒我们一下，在工作中拥有热情或找到使命感的一些好处吗？

We discussed this during our last conversation, but can you remind us of some of the benefits of having passion in your work or finding a calling?

是的。

Yeah.

使命感带来的许多好处，实际上源于对工作的更高投入和更强的动力。

A lot of the benefits of calling are really driven by an extra engagement in and motivation to do that work.

这些员工都会超越本职要求。

So these are the employees who go above and beyond.

他们会付出努力。

They put in the effort.

他们会准时上班，甚至很少请假。

They, you know, show up to work even, you know, they don't miss as much work.

他们所做的工作可能非常出色，质量极高。

The work they do is is potentially very good and very high quality.

他们对此非常非常认真。

They're very very diligent about it.

他们真的很在乎做好这份工作。

They just they care about doing that work a lot.

同样地，这对工作者自身也有好处。

And then similarly, there are benefits for the worker themself.

因此，包括我自己的研究在内的研究表明，对工作的使命感会延伸到生活的方方面面，带来积极影响。

So research, including my own, has found that experiencing a calling toward your work spills over to benefit your life as a whole.

因此，我们可以说它赋予了你人生意义。

So we might say it gives your life meaning.

它为你提供了目标。

It gives you a purpose.

这对我们整体来说非常好。

That's really good for us in general.

它能让我们感受到生活整体是美好的，而不仅仅是在工作中的生活。

It can lead us to feel our lives are are good, thinking about life as a whole and not just life at work.

我真的很喜欢我们上一次对话的一点是，你不仅谈到了拥有使命感的好处，还谈到了拥有使命感的一些潜在负面影响。

One of the things that I really enjoyed about our last conversation is that you not only talked about the benefits of having a calling, but some of the potential downsides of having a calling.

它们有哪些呢？

What are some of them?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这就像硬币的另一面：尽管使命感有这么多好处，但另一方面，这种额外的热情、额外的努力和超越本分的意愿，也可能演变成过度承诺，让你几乎做得太多了。

So this is sort of that other side of the coin that as good as callings can be, there's also this side of it where that extra passion, that extra effort, that willingness to go above and beyond can turn into an over commitment where you're almost doing too much.

你投入了太多自己，从而没有为生活的其他方面留出空间，甚至可能让自己陷入被剥削的风险。

You're putting in too much of yourself and then not leaving room for other areas of your life and potentially opening yourself up to exploitation.

因此，我和我合著《你的工作值得吗？》一书的合作者克里斯托弗·米歇尔森一起，

So along with my coauthor on my book, Is Your Work Worth It?

在一些最近的研究中开始探讨这样一个观点：也许使命感最好不是以极端的高峰或低谷来体验，而是处于一种中间地带。

Christopher Michelson, we've started exploring in some more recent work this notion that maybe callings are best experienced not as an extreme high or an extreme low, but really in this sort of middle space.

当我们走向极端时，就会看到一些负面影响：要么完全不投入，要么过度投入。

And when we push to those extremes is when we see some of the downsides, either we're not at all committed or we're overcommitted.

现在让我们转向观众的问题。

Let's turn now to questions from the audience.

我们听到了一位名叫伊丽莎白的听众说，她和丈夫对工作能带来什么有着截然不同的期待。

We heard from a listener named Elizabeth who says she and her husband have very different expectations about what they will get out of work.

我成长在一个强调每个孩子都要找到自己使命的家庭。

I grew up in a family focused on each of us kids finding our calling.

如今，作为成年人，我在大学毕业后十五年里尝试了各种助人型职业。

Fast forward to me as an adult, and I've tried all different kinds of helping professions in my fifteen years post college in the work field.

但我仍在摸索中。

And I'm still trying to figure it out.

我丈夫对我不停抱怨工作不适合我感到厌倦。

And my husband is tired of me complaining about work not being the perfect fit for me.

我丈夫成长于一个蓝领社区，在他看来，工作就是工作。

My husband grew up in a blue collar community, and to him, work is work.

你只要找份能付账单的工作就行了。

You just find something that pays the bills.

而‘使命感’这个概念对他来说有点陌生。

And the idea of a calling was kind of a foreign concept.

因此，随着我不断寻找却始终找不到自己的使命感，这种张力变得越来越明显。

And so this has been this tension that I've been examining more and more as I continue to seek and not find my calling.

从某种意义上说，珍，伊丽莎白的意思是，那些把工作视为职业的人和那些把工作视为使命的人，可能会彼此感到难以理解。

In some ways, Jen, what Elizabeth is saying is that people who think of their work as a job and people who think of their work as a calling might look at one another with mutual incomprehension.

伊丽莎白，谢谢你分享这个观点。

So, Elizabeth, thank you for sharing that perspective.

对于夫妻来说，拥有我们所谓的‘工作观念不一致’是非常普遍的现象。

That is actually such a common occurrence for couples to have what we might call incongruent work orientations.

一方觉得工作只是谋生手段，另一方却觉得是使命，这会让人很难弄清楚自己真正想要什么，甚至像伊丽莎白那样，你几乎会质疑：这真的是我想要的吗？

One one feels it's a job, the other feels it's a calling, that it can make it hard to know what do I really want in work, and that this is and you almost question, just as Elizabeth is doing, you know, is this really what I want?

而且，你知道，我究竟在寻找什么？我真正重视的是什么？

And is you know, what sort of what am I looking for and what do I value?

不一致程度越高，不仅会导致不确定性增加和求职时间延长，最终还会降低重新就业的可能性。

And greater incongruence not only leads to, you know, uncertainty and a longer job search, but ultimately a lower probability of reemployment.

你与伴侣在工作观上的不一致程度越高，你对工作的满意度就越低。

The more incongruence of your work orientation with your partner, the less satisfied you are with your job.

这其中有一个有趣的例外：如果你是那个拥有更高使命感的人，那么你反而会对工作更满意。

There's an interesting caveat to that unless you are the one with the higher calling, and then you are more satisfied with your job.

这几乎是一种社会比较。

So it's almost this, like, social comparison.

现在，伊丽莎白的例子我认为更多体现了这种探索者的特质，但这也表明，如果她找到一份工作并认为那是自己的使命，而她的丈夫只把工作当作谋生手段，她反而可能会感到更高的满足感。

Now Elizabeth's Elizabeth's example, I think, speaks more to the the seeker nature of this, but it suggests that if she were to be employed and feel that that work was her calling, she might actually experience more satisfaction as a function of her husband viewing his work as as just a job.

有没有研究解释过，为什么不同的人会把工作看作一份职业，而另一些人则看作一种使命？

Is there any research that explains why it is different people might look at work as a job versus look at it as a calling?

这是否与我们的成长经历以及童年时期所受的教育有关？

Does it have to do with our upbringing and what we've been taught as children?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，显然这方面还需要做大量研究，但已经有一些研究，我想特别提到凯瑟琳·德凯斯和韦恩·贝克的一项研究，他们探讨了青少年时期通过与父母的社会互动所发生的情况。

So there, I mean, definitely needs to be significantly more work done on this, but there are a few studies, and I wanna point to one by Catherine Deakis and Wayne Baker that looked at exactly what happens in adolescence through socialization with parents.

毫不意外，我们早在生命早期就通过与重要他人互动开始思考工作，而父母对我们的影响尤为巨大。

So no surprise, we start thinking about work early in our lives through interaction with, you know, significant others, but a huge influence on us is our parents.

父母如何看待他们的工作、他们如何赋予工作意义，都会影响我们，而且影响方式相当有趣。

What our parents, you know, feel about their work, the meaning they make of their work influences us, and it does so in some pretty interesting ways.

当父母双方都具有强烈的职业使命感时，孩子更容易形成强烈的职业使命感。

So kids develop stronger calling orientations when both parents possess strong calling orientations.

其他研究探讨了人们何时会感到自己的工作是一种使命，发现仅仅有榜样和影响，看到他人将工作视为使命的方式，就能激励我们。

Other work has looked at the journey toward when we feel our work is a calling and finds that just having role models and influences, seeing people kind of model the way of experiencing their work as a calling can be inspiring to us.

当然，另一方面也存在压力，但这种榜样作用同样能激励我们。

Now, of course, the other side of that is is pressure, but it can be inspiring to us.

因此，父母可能是我们最早接触到的榜样。

And so parents might be our earliest form of those role models.

有许多职业，人们最初是将其视为使命而进入的，但一旦进入后，却发现职业中很大一部分内容是枯燥或琐碎的活动。

There are many professions that people enter into as a calling, but once in the profession, they find that there are significant portions of that profession that involve boring activities or mundane activities.

我在想一个人决定成为消防员，他们心中有着一种非常光彩的形象，比如冲进着火的大楼去救人。

I'm thinking about someone who decides to become a firefighter, and so they have this very glamorous vision of running into burning buildings and rescuing people.

但如果你是一名消防员，大部分时间其实只是坐着等待电话铃响，这份工作中的很多内容可能相当枯燥。

But if you're a firefighter, much of your time actually is just spent sitting around waiting for someone to call, and a lot of the job might actually be quite boring.

我想知道，珍，当那些期待工作永远有趣又光鲜的人，遇到每份职业都不可避免的枯燥部分时，会发生什么？

I'm wondering what happens, Jen, when people who expect that their work is going to be unendingly interesting and glamorous encounter the boring parts that come with every profession.

是的。

Yeah.

我会尽量给我的学生一个现实的预览。

I try to really give my students a realistic preview of that.

即使是最有意义的工作，也不会时刻都让人觉得有意义。

Like, even the most meaningful work does not feel meaningful all the time.

所以我认为，仅仅提前让他们明白现实情况就很关键，比如你是一名消防员，但现实远没有电视剧和电影里展现的那样充满光环和刺激。

So I think just even having this realistic preview of, like, you're a firefighter, but it's not all glamor and excitement and how it seems on TV shows and movies.

当然，当我们谈论消防员时，我会想到迈克·普拉特及其同事的研究，他们专门探讨了消防员的职业使命感，发现真正驱动他们的往往是与队友之间的深厚情谊。

Now, of course, when we're talking about firefighters, I do think about work by Mike Pratt and colleagues that looked specifically at callings and firefighters and found that a lot of what really drives them is the camaraderie with the other firefighters.

所以挺有意思的，虽然我在消防站里坐着可能觉得无聊，但我身边都是我的兄弟们，这才是我真正为之而来的原因。

So it's funny, like, I could be bored sitting around the firehouse, but I'm with my buddies, and that's really that's who I show up for.

即使在扑灭五级大火这样看似辉煌的角色中，我想到的也是他们，想着保护他们的安全，这种感觉是相通的。

And even in the glamorous role of putting out a five alarm blaze, I'm thinking about them and keeping them safe, and it sort of translates over.

但我想探讨一下你的观点，就是你有着远大的目标，但进入工作后却发现，根本没什么能让你想起那个更大的图景。

But I wanna entertain your idea of, you know, I have lofty goals, and then I get in my job, and it is just, you know, there there is not a lot to remind me about that bigger picture.

有时候我会建议，试着去发现这份工作虽然枯燥，却依然在提供帮助，这种帮助也可能惠及你自身。

Sometimes what I would recommend is just trying to see the way that the work, though boring, is still helping, and that could be helping you.

它可能在帮助你、你的追求、你的家人，或者工作之外的生活。

It could be helping, you know, you and your pursuits or your family or what happens outside of work.

它也可能在帮助社会，只是你感觉不到自己对它负有直接责任。

It could be hap helping society, just you don't feel you're as, you know, personally responsible for it.

但我认为，关键在于要在两个方面取得平衡：一方面，要现实地认识到，即使是最令人热爱的工作，也不可能每天每分钟都让人感到热爱；另一方面，也要思考，当你无法再与当前的工作建立有意义的连接时，是否该认真倾听这种感受，并考虑何时该做出改变。

But I think it's sort of this there needs to be some kind of a balance between having a realistic expectation that even the most lovable work is not lovable every single minute of every single day, and also thinking about, you know, how much there does become a point at which I think if you are unable to sustain a meaningful connection to the work you're actually doing, you do need to listen to that and think about when is it time to change things up.

我们回来后，聊聊我们的热情如何随时间变化，以及当旧的使命感不再满足你时，如何找到新的方向。

When we come back, how our passions change over time and ways to find a new calling when your old one no longer satisfies you.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

做你热爱的事，你就永远不会觉得是在工作。

Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life.

这是我们所有人都听过的一句话，许多人也深信，如果你对自己的工作充满热情，它就不会成为负担。

It's a phrase we've all heard and many of us have internalized the idea that if you experience a deep passion for what you do, your work won't feel like a burden.

事实上，'工作'这个词源自古希腊语'ergon'，意思是某人实现内在渴望或目标后的成果。

In fact, the word work itself comes from the ancient Greek term ergon, which means the outcome of someone who achieves an inner desire a purpose.

在巴布森学院，詹妮弗·托斯特·卡雷研究我们如何在工作中找到意义，以及追求事业所带来的益处与代价。

At Babson College, Jennifer Toste Carra studies how we find meaning in our work, and the benefits and the costs of pursuing a calling.

珍，我们从听众那里听到一个有趣的观点是，人们对工作的热情会随着时间推移而变化，可能是由于工作本身，或是生活状况的改变。

Jen, one interesting sentiment we heard from listeners is that one's passion for work can evolve over time, perhaps because of the work itself or changing life circumstances.

一位名叫克里斯蒂娜的听众年过三十，一直靠在纽约做兼职歌手维持生计。

A listener named Christina is in her mid thirties and has been able to make ends meet as a part time singer in New York City.

但她最近决定找一份全职的日间工作。

But she recently decided to take a full time day job.

过去几年里，我的情况发生了变化。

Things changed for me in the past few years.

我只是意识到，我需要更多的结构和稳定性。

I I just realized that I needed more structure, more stability.

生活中还有其他我想追求的东西，比如我早就想养一只猫了。

And there are other things I want in life, like I've wanted a cat for a long time.

我想多旅行一些，去看望家人时不必为每一张机票钱精打细算，也希望有朝一日能拥有自己的房子。

I'd like to travel a little bit more, see my family without having to worry about every single cent I spend on plane tickets to go see them, you know, own a home someday.

如果继续沿着我原来的道路走下去，这些事情根本不可能实现。

And those things just wouldn't be possible if I continued on the trajectory I was on.

所以开始这份新工作很有意思，因为它并没有让我觉得失去了什么，反而让我觉得我得到了一些东西。

And so starting this new day job has been interesting because rather than making me feel like I've lost something, I feel like I've gained something.

珍，我觉得克里斯蒂娜的故事中令人印象深刻的是，她似乎并没有像许多人那样感到失落。

What I find striking about Christina's story, Jen, is that she doesn't seem to feel what many others feel.

她并没有觉得自己出卖了自己，或者降低了标准，或者放弃了对她重要的东西。

She doesn't feel like she has sold out or traded down or given up on what matters to her.

在某种程度上，她扩展了自己对‘什么是重要的’这一定义。

In some ways, she has expanded her definition of what matters to her.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我非常喜欢克里斯蒂娜的故事，我认为这非常典型地说明了，工作要具有意义，并不意味着它必须是一种召唤。

So I love Christina's story, and I think that this is very emblematic that the only way for work to have meaning is not just to feel that work has to be a calling.

如果一份工作能激发我们对工作之外生活的热情或意义，它同样可以充满意义，并为人生增添很多价值。

So work can be meaningful and add, in fact, a lot to one's life if it's a job that fuels our passion or our meaningful life outside of work.

我认为克里斯蒂娜的故事正是这一点的例证。

And I think Christina's story is an example of this.

我们社会往往推崇所谓的‘天职’，但它们并非一切。

And we tend to we venerate callings in our society, but they're not the end all be all.

我们之前谈到过，这种观念可能会给人们带来问题，甚至直接妨碍他们过上更平衡的生活。

We talked earlier about the problems that they can cause for people and and actually directly for having a more balanced life.

因此，我认为，一种典型的生活变化——比如结婚、生子或照顾其他依赖者——会让我们突然觉得，我时间的最佳用法不仅是为生活中这些重要的人提供保障，更要能陪伴他们。

And so I think that, you know, a typical life change that might affect, how we view our work is partnering, maybe having kids or other dependents, and suddenly feeling like the best use of my time is to not only provide for those other people in our lives, but be able to spend time with them.

于是，我们逐渐远离了过去在理想世界中以为自己想要的东西——在那里，金钱无关紧要，生活其他因素也不重要——而这种理想与我们真实想过的日子产生了碰撞。

So shifting away from sort of what I always thought I wanted to do in an ideal world where money didn't matter or, you know, other things in life didn't matter and sort of this, you know, ideal bumps up against the reality of how we actually want to live our lives.

当我们所热爱的激情不再触手可及时，我们很多人都会感到挣扎。

Many of us do struggle when our passion is no longer within reach.

也许我们失去了工作，或者对当前的工作失去了热情。

Perhaps we lose a job or we fall out of love with our current one.

一位名叫温迪的听众曾是联邦雇员，最近在特朗普政府的大规模裁员中被解雇了。

A listener named Wendy was a federal worker who recently got fired as part of the Trump administration's mass layoffs.

以下是她的话。

Here she is.

我所有的东西昨天都搬去储藏室了。

All of my stuff went into storage yesterday.

我要搬出我的住处，去和我妹妹住在一起，同时寻找新的职业方向。

I'm moving out of my place to go stay with my little sister while I try to figure out a new career.

但我也需要进行大量的情感梳理。

But there's a lot of emotional processing that I'll need to do as well.

当我逐渐理解这份工作、这份职业的失去对我意味着什么时。

As I come to understand what the loss of this job, this work means for me.

这个过程对大多数人来说是什么样的，珍？

What does this process look like for most people, Jen?

听温迪的故事，我感受到的是一种哀伤，一个正在经历失去的人。

As I hear Wendy, I'm hearing grief, someone who's dealing with a loss.

是的。

Absolutely.

我非常高兴也很荣幸能听到温迪的故事，同时我也对她深表同情，因为这些裁员影响了众多政府工作人员，他们中的许多人正是选择政府工作，为了以更广泛的方式帮助社会、帮助国家。

So I'm I'm so glad and honored to hear Wendy's story, and I think I'm also really holding some very deep sympathy for her because these layoffs affected government workers who many of them chose government work specifically to help in a broader in a broader way, help our society, help our country.

他们并不是出于外在的原因来考虑工作的。

They weren't necessarily thinking about more extrinsic reasons for working.

我的意思是，这正是我们通常会预期看到强烈使命感的典型领域。

I mean, again, this is a prototypical kind of area we would expect to see some strong callings.

所以我认为，无论你对工作的态度如何，失去一份工作都是非常艰难的。

And so I think, you know, regardless of your orientation toward your work, losing a job is really hard.

它可能引发从最基本的问题，比如我还能不能负担得起食物、房租，维持我的生活方式，我的生活还必须做出哪些改变，到更深层次的问题，比如我是谁？

It can lead to everything from just a more fundamental question about, you know, will I be able to put food on the table, maintain my rent, keep my lifestyle, what else will have to change in my life, to these really higher order questions of who am I?

我不再工作了，我的身份又是什么？

What is my identity now that I'm not working?

我怀念那些曾经在职场中的朋友们。

I miss my friends who were part of that workplace.

我的意思是，这在各个层面上都是一种损失。

I mean, it's a loss on sort of every level.

所以我认为，将它视为一种损失并经历一个哀悼的过程，这在关于失业的研究中是有据可依的。

So I think to equate it to, you know, loss and to have a grieving process, I mean, that is born out in research on job loss.

确实，失去的远不止一份工作而已。

There is absolutely, if you will, more lost than just the job.

与之相伴的还有方方面面的东西，尤其是对于那些将工作视为强烈使命感的人来说，这种工作已成为自我身份的一部分。

There's sort of everything that goes with it and including, and especially for someone for whom the work was a strong calling, this idea that it's part of my identity.

它赋予了我的人生意义。

It gives meaning to my life.

因此，那里真正失去的东西非常多。

So there's a there's really a lot that's lost there.

我认为，那种认为我们可以轻易地‘即插即用’来替代这种失落的想法，会因为我们对这份工作的依恋程度而变得更加困难。

And I think this notion that we can just easily, you know, plug and play and replace that loss becomes even harder the more attached we were to that job.

我们听到了一位名叫大卫的记者的故事，他正为所在行业的现状而挣扎。

We heard from a journalist named David who's struggling with the state of his industry.

他开始质疑自己曾经被灌输的关于职业使命感的说法。

He finds himself questioning the stories he was told about his supposed calling.

如果你最初对使命感的信念建立在后来发现是错误的前提上，你就会开始怀疑这份工作是否真的是你的使命。

If your original belief in a calling was predicated on something that you subsequently learned was wrong, you start to question whether the work is your calling.

那接下来你该怎么办呢？

So what do you do then?

如果你意识到你的工作可能并不是你的使命，或者不再是你使命的时候，会发生什么？

What happens if you realize your work might not be your calling or no longer is your calling?

我知道人们在生活中会做出转变。

I know that people pivot in life.

人们在职业生涯和一生中可以拥有多个使命吗？

Can people have multiple callings within their careers and lifespans?

简，在某种程度上，我听到了温迪说过的话的回响。

In some ways here, Jen, I'm hearing an echo of what Wendy said.

大卫也在某种程度上说，他曾经被许诺了一些东西，但这个承诺没有兑现。

David is also saying in some ways that he was given a promise, and the promise didn't hold up.

我几乎能感受到，他觉得自己被这个未能实现的承诺背叛了。

And I'm hearing almost a sense that he feels betrayed by the promise not working out.

你对他这个问题怎么看？

What do you make of his question?

一个人的一生中，真的可以拥有多个使命吗？

Can people, in fact, have multiple callings within one lifetime?

让我先说，我认为大卫的故事会引起相当多人的共鸣。

Let me start by saying I think David's story will resonate with a fair number of people.

世界正在发生巨大的变化。

The world is changing so much.

科技正在兴起。

Technology is coming online.

我的意思是，关于人工智能以及当我们真正实现具有意识的人工智能后，我们许多工作还剩下什么，人们已经讨论得没完没了。

I mean, all the endless discussions about AI and what will be left of a lot of our jobs once we, you know, fully realize sentient AI.

我认为，很多人担心我们原本设想的使命，可能并不会成为我们实际所从事的事业。

And I think there's a lot of concern that the callings that we imagined might not be the callings that we're living out.

这确实是一个令人担忧的问题，也是一个真正的难题。

And that's a that's a real concern and I think a real problem.

所以，除了新闻业或政府工作之类，我认为很多人都能对此产生强烈共鸣。

So, you know, beyond, journalism or government work sort of, I think a lot of people can can really identify with that.

关于多重使命，贾斯汀·伯格、亚当·格兰特和维多利亚·约翰逊进行过有趣的研究，他们发现，即使我们已经实现了其中一种使命，我们仍然会强烈意识到还有其他未完成的事情。

When it comes to multiple callings, there's interesting research by Justin Berg, Adam Grant, and Victoria Johnson, and they find that even if we're we have on the one hand fulfilled one of our callings, we're still very acutely aware that there's something else out there that we're not doing.

每当我们被提醒到那些未实现的使命时，我们就会被强烈地驱使去追寻它们。

And that every time we're sort of reminded of that unfulfilled calling, we are really motivated to go seek it out.

因此，绝对没错，那种将使命比作浪漫伴侣的隐喻——认为世界上只有一个适合你的人，你只需要找到它就行。

So absolutely, the notion that this metaphor of calling is like a romantic partner, and there's just one out there for you, and you just have to find it.

一旦找到，一切就会一帆风顺。

And once you find it, it's smooth sailing.

就像我们正在剖析关于浪漫伴侣或人生伴侣的这种观念一样。

I mean, just the same way that we are unpacking this notion about romantic partners or, you know, life partners.

在工作和使命方面，情况也非常相似。

It's a very similar thing for work and for callings.

对我们大多数人来说，并不是只有一个使命等着你去寻找，而是可能有多个事物都能带给你满足感，我总是说，当你不确定时，就去多尝试经历。

For most of us, there's not just one calling out there and we have to venture to find it, but rather that we can there can be multiple things that would fulfill us and that I I always say when in doubt, just have experiences.

试着通过试错来学习，反思哪些有效、哪些无效。

Try to, you know, learn from trial and error and reflect on what's working and what's not.

因为如果你留心并主动寻找，它很可能就在那里。

Because odds are, it's out there if you are attentive to it and looking for it.

詹，我们收到了很多听众关于你研究的问题。

We got a lot of listener questions about your research, Jen.

这个话题在我们的听众中非常受欢迎，我认为原因在于，尤其是在美国，我们的工作生活对我们身份的塑造起着核心作用。

It was a really popular topic with our audience, and I think the reason is because, you know, especially in The US, our work lives play such a central role in our identities.

一位名叫米迪安的听众打来了电话。

A listener named Midian called in.

她已经在电影行业担任化妆特效师二十多年了。

She's worked in the film industry for more than twenty years as a makeup effects artist.

但最近她感到厌倦了，于是转行从事教授和培训其他化妆师的工作。

But recently, she became jaded, so she's transitioned into a role that involves teaching and training other makeup artists.

但她表示，这个转变很难适应。

But she says it's been a tricky change to navigate.

这次转变之所以如此痛苦，主要是因为我就是做化妆特效的。

This transition has been so painful mostly because I am makeup effects.

如果没有了这个，我还能是谁呢？这一直是一个相当艰难的过程。

And what am I without that Is has been has been quite a process.

我不得不像戈甘一样，把一切都丢掉。

And I've had to, just like Gogane, get rid of everything.

我要搬到阿尔巴尼亚去了。

I'm moving to Albania.

我要彻底放手一切。

I'm I'm going to just let it all go.

我放手得越多，感觉就越好。

And the more I let go, the better I am feeling.

我想问问，珍，你能不能谈谈我们是谁和我们从事的工作之间的联系？

I'm wondering, Jen, if you can talk about the link between who we are and what we do for work.

因为从米迪安的问题中，我听到的是，对她来说，这份工作不仅仅是一份召唤。

Because one thing I'm hearing in Midian's question is that for her, her job was not just a calling.

她的工作就是她本人。

Her job was who she was.

是的

Yeah.

我实际上写下了米迪安的话：我是化妆特效师。

I actually wrote down Midian's quote, I am makeup effects.

没有了这些，我是什么？

What am I without that?

我认为，这种表述方式非常有力地揭示了很多人对使命感的情感体验——这不仅仅是‘我做什么’，更是‘我是谁’。

That's such a powerful way of stating, I think, the emotional experience of callings for many people that it's not just what I do, it's who I am.

我认为这部分原因在于它非常具有美国特色。

And I think part of that is it's very American.

我认为这是一种文化背景鲜明的观点，但我也觉得这是强烈使命感的定义性特征。

I think it's a a very, like, culturally situated view, but I also think it's something that is is definitional to a strong calling.

这确实是我看待它的方式。

It's certainly the way I think about it.

这不仅仅是我在更宏观的层面上理解自己为何从事这份工作，它更深刻地反映了我本人和我的价值观，并将这些传递给他人。

It is not just the fact that I understand why I'm doing my work in a broader picture, but it really says something about me and my values and then transmits it to others.

当我们衡量使命感时，我们常用的一个量表项目是：‘我向别人介绍自己时，首先会说我的工作是什么。’

Often when we measure callings, one of the scale items that we use that we ask people to agree or disagree with is one of the first things that I tell people about myself is what I do for work.

我觉得这简直一语道破了全部。

And I just think that that really says it all.

这是一种自豪感。

It's a point of pride.

这是一种身份认同。

It's a point of identity.

正如米迪安所说，一旦失去它，感觉尤其艰难。

And and so then, of course, as as Midian is saying, to go without it feels especially challenging.

我们几乎无法想象那种状态。

We almost can't imagine it.

我很好奇，既然我曾经找到过它，是否意味着我还能再次找到？

I do wonder, can that give you the sense that I found it once before I can find it again?

我认为，对于那些曾经拥有使命感、后来却失去的人——无论是被剥夺了，还是自己选择了别的道路——这或许是一种乐观的视角。

I think that's what I would like to be the optimistic view of this for those who have experienced a calling and then maybe fallen, you know, whether it was taken away from them or they chose something different, fallen out from their calling.

我希望这当中仍有一些希望。

I I would like to think there's some hope.

你知道吗，听到这些听众的反馈让我深刻感受到，人们对使命感的渴望有多么强烈。

You know, hearing these notes from listeners really shows me how much of a hunger there is for callings out there.

许多人真的希望自己的工作能带来启发。

So many people really want to feel inspired by what they're doing.

我们收到了许多听众的来信，他们都在思考如何在退休后找到使命感。

We heard from many listeners wondering about finding a calling in retirement.

珍，有没有研究专门探讨过在人生后期寻找激情的可能性？

Has there been research looking specifically at finding a passion later in life, Jen?

确实有一些研究探讨了如何思考退休，甚至如何拥抱退休，而不是把它看作生命的终点。

I mean, there is research on how to think about retirement, and actually embracing retirement, sort of not as, an endpoint when life is over.

我觉得很多人就是这么看待退休的。

I mean, I think a lot of people view it like that.

我简直无法想象，如果我不工作，我会做些什么。

So I can't imagine what I would do if I wasn't working.

这是一种我们常被灌输的文化观念：你是谁，取决于你做什么。

And, this is part of this cultural message that we're often fed that says, who you are is what you do.

如果你不再工作了，那你还有价值吗？

And if you're no longer doing work, you know, do you even have value?

但我认为，退休为人们提供了一个机会，去追求热情，或者从事有意义的志愿活动或爱好——这些可能在过去被工作所耽搁。

But I think that retirement is an opportunity for people to, I think, pursue passions or do meaningful I mean, or do meaningful, you know, volunteer activities or hobbies that maybe work got in the way of.

我认识的那些人——再次说明，这并不是研究，更多是个人经历——那些在退休后最幸福的人，真正体会到了其中的好处。

So the people that I you know, and again, this isn't research, but more anecdotal, but the people I know who are happiest in retirement really see the benefits.

他们并不纠结于工作消失了这一事实，而是关注退休为他们带来的新机遇，比如：以前有全职工作的时候，我根本不可能去徒步攀登我所在地区的所有高峰。

They're they're not sort of focusing on the fact that work went away, but they're focusing on the benefits that retirement opens up for them in terms of, wow, I could never hike all the high peaks in my area when I had a day job.

以前工作的时候，我根本不可能去学习一项新技能，现在我每天都能练习。

I could never learn a new skill that now I I, you know, practice every day when I was working.

退休为你腾出了时间和其它资源，让你能做哪些以前做不到的事情？

What does retirement open up time and other resources to do that you couldn't do before?

所以，退休并不是任何事情的终结，更不是生命的终结，而是一个以全新、或许更有意义的方式生活的机会。

So it's really not an ending of anything anything or sort of an ending of certainly life, but a chance to live in a new and hopefully more meaningful way.

回来后，珍将分享给仍在寻找人生使命的人们的建议。

When we come back, Jen shares her advice for people still searching for their calling.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在巴布森学院，托斯蒂卡里斯表示，在工作中找到使命感可以为我们的身心健康带来一系列益处。

At Babson College, Tostikaris says finding a calling in work can lead to a range of benefits for our physical and mental health.

但追求使命感也可能带来代价。

But the pursuit of a calling can also come at a cost.

珍，我们来谈谈这些负面影响。

Jen, let's talk a moment about some of those drawbacks.

有一位名叫凯瑟琳的听众对此提出了一个问题。

Here's a listener named Catherine who had a question about it.

我昨天刚满40岁，而我真正想在生日那天做的事是工作。

I just turned 40 yesterday, and what I really wanted to do for my birthday was work.

我经营一家制作艺术品的公司，这是一个奢侈品牌。

I run a company that makes artwork, and it's a luxury brand.

从外面看，它似乎非常成功。

And it looks very successful on the outside.

但当我最近登上《华尔街日报》时，我甚至买不起超过两份报纸。

But when I was recently featured in The Wall Street Journal, I couldn't even afford more than two copies of the paper.

大多数时候，我自己的账户里只剩下几美元。

Most weeks, I end up with just a few dollars in my own account.

而且，你提到的那些牺牲真的引起了我的共鸣。

And, more than that, the sacrifices you talked about really resonated.

这份工作非常疲惫，有时甚至很危险。

The work is exhausting and sometimes even dangerous.

我可能会死于这份工作。

I will probably die from the work.

我每个月都必须进行重金属血液检测，很可能已经患上矽肺病，但能够支持艺术家并创造持久的作品让我觉得这一切都有意义。

I have to get heavy metal blood testing every month and will probably develop silicosis or have already, but it feels meaningful to support artists and create something lasting.

谢谢你提醒我，我并不是唯一一个在热情与收入之间努力平衡的人。

Thank you for reminding me that I'm not alone in trying to balance passion with paycheck.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，凯瑟琳·赖兴非常有动力，她对自己的工作充满热情，但同时也面临经济困境，并为了从事热爱的事业而牺牲健康。

So if I'm hearing Katherine Reichen, she's really driven and she feels passionately about her work, but she's also struggling economically and sacrificing her health to do what she loves.

一个人该如何思考在人生中平衡这些相互冲突的优先事项呢？

How can a person think about balancing those competing priorities in in their life?

我认为凯瑟琳刚才所说的话非常有代表性且富有力量，对我来说，这正是强烈使命感所带来的典型负面后果——你几乎无法不去做它。

So what I think is so telling and powerful about Katherine's what Katherine said just now is that I mean, to me, this is such a prototypical downside of a strong calling story in that it's almost like you can't help but not do it.

你知道，这可能太多了。

You know it's probably too much.

你知道这可能对你的健康或人际关系不利，但你就是必须去做，几乎不惜一切代价。

You know that probably it's not great for your health or not great for your relationships, but you just you've you've gotta do it almost at all costs.

我的意思是，这种强烈的使命感已经近乎过度了。

I mean, to me, this is that strong calling verging on a too strong calling.

因此，关于如何更好地平衡这一点，我认为凯瑟琳至少对自己的处境非常清醒。

And so in terms of how to balance this better, I do think I mean, Katherine seems nothing if not self aware about the situation.

第一步就是，你是否意识到这种付出对你造成的代价？

That would be the first step is just are you even sort of aware of the toll that it's taking on you?

她似乎意识到了，但同时又说，她依然选择继续下去。

She seems to be, and then at the same time saying, but she still continues to choose it.

我认为非常重要的是要关注，如果这是一场持久战，而你的心理健康、身体健康，以及那些支持你生活、让你保持踏实的人际关系都受到了损害，这实际上会影响你持续从事这项工作的能力和持久性。

I think it's very important to pay attention to, if this is a long game and if you are your, you know, psychological health, your physical health, your relationships with others who enable your life or keep you grounded are are compromised, but it actually can affect the longevity and sustainability of your ability to do that work.

所以我认为，如果情况严重失衡，这本身就会阻碍你去做对你而言如此有意义的工作。

So I think if things get too out of whack, that in and of itself can keep you from doing the work that is so meaningful to you.

因此，如果从长远的大局来看，这真的是你的优先事项，那么这些行为是否能持续下去？

So if that really is a priority in a big picture longer term way, are these actions sustained?

你能长期坚持这些行为吗？

You know, can I sustain these actions over time?

我的意思是，在某些方面，我们讨论的是那些演变成执念的使命感。

I mean, in some ways, we're talking about, callings that are spilling over into obsessions.

在上一期节目中，我们谈到了‘使命感’这个词本身。

We talked in our last episode about the very word calling.

我的意思是，这个词最初起源于宗教语境。

I mean, originally, it, started in a religious context.

你被上帝召唤了。

You were called by God.

那就是所谓的使命感。

That that was what a calling was.

你的上帝基本上是在告诉你：放下你手头的工作，来完成我为你安排的事情。

Your God was basically telling you, set down your work and come and do the things that I have set out for you.

你可以很容易地看出，如果真的是上帝在召唤你去做某件事。

And you can easily see if, you know, God is actually calling you to do something.

你知道，也许你都没时间洗澡了。

Know, maybe you don't have time to have a shower.