升级版你：信任你的疑虑

那些看起来最有效的政治领袖，似乎都知道该带领我们走向何方。

The political leaders who seem like they're the most effective leaders seem to know exactly where to lead us.

我们认为是优秀商业领袖的人，似乎也清楚自己想做什么。

The business leaders who we feel are good business leaders seem to know exactly what they want to do.

谈谈这一点。

Talk a little bit about this.

我们所有的社会规范基本上都将果断视为一种值得推崇的品质。

The social norms we have all basically valorize the role of decisiveness.

是的。

Yeah.

当我们所有人都内化了‘聪明就是得出正确答案’这一观念时，一旦看到别人自信地表现出他们知道答案，就很容易顺从他们，心想：我可能对这件事没那么确定，但那边那个人看起来很清楚。

When we all internalize this message that being smart means getting the right answer, then when we look around and we see people who confidently project having the right answer, it's easy to defer to them and say, well, I might not be feeling as certain about this, but this person over there, they seem to know.

这减轻了我们在面对怀疑时可能感受到的不适。

And it alleviates some of the discomfort we might feel when we experience doubt.

它让我们能够追随那个人，心想：也许他们确实有正确答案，因为我清楚自己没有。

And it allows us to follow that person and say, well, maybe they have the right answer because I know I don't.

你知道吗，我正在思考一些关于危机情境下人们行为的研究，比如恐怖袭击。

You know, I'm thinking about some work looking at what happens in crisis situations like terrorist attacks.

在世界贸易中心进行过一系列非常有趣的研究。

There was this very interesting set of studies that was done at the World Trade Center.

这并不是在9·11事件期间，而是在几年前发生的一次爆炸事件后。

This was not during the nine eleven attacks, but during a bombing that took place some years earlier.

我发现，人们的行为很大程度上受到周围人行为的影响。

And I found that largely what people did was shaped by what the people around them were doing.

换句话说，如果你的同事决定原地不动，那你也会选择留下。

So in other words, if there was someone in your workplace that decided to stay put, you ended up staying put.

如果有人决定匆忙撤离，你和所有人都会立刻站起来跟着跑。

If someone decided to make a hasty exit, you and everyone else jumped up.

在某种程度上，我不认为我们愿意把自己看作是盲从的绵羊。

And and in some ways, I I don't think we like to think of ourselves as being sheep.

但研究显示，我们深受周围人的影响。

But what the research suggests is that we are heavily influenced by the people around us.

作为社会性物种，这是一种非常重要的行为信号。

And as a social species, that's a huge cue of how we should be behaving.

如果我看到有人在跑，那我也最好跟着跑。

If I see people running, I better run.

如果我看到人们若无其事地继续做自己的事，那也许我也应该这么做。

If I see people carrying on with, like, nothing happened, then maybe I should be doing the same.

我最喜欢的一项研究，展示了类似的效果，发生在曼哈顿。

One of my favorite studies that illustrates a similar effect, takes place in Manhattan.

研究人员设计了一个非常巧妙的实验，只想测量如何影响路过街头的人的行为。

And the researchers had this very clever design where they just wanted to measure how they could influence the behavior of people who were passing by on the street.

他们让一名研究助理站在街角，抬头望着天际线，然后记录有多少路人会停下来看向上方。

And they put one research assistant on the street corner, and the person was just looking up at the skyline, and they were just measuring how many people would stop and also look up.

当只有一人站在那里时，几乎没有人停下。

And when they put one person there, almost nobody stops.

对吧？

Right?

这是纽约。

It's New York.

总有人在做疯狂的事。

There's always people doing crazy things.

继续走你的路就行。

Just keep walking your own direction.

但当他们让三位研究助理站在角落抬头看时，几乎每一个过马路的人都会停下来看，心想他们在看什么？

But when they put three research assistants on the corner looking up, virtually every person who crossed the street also stopped and looked up to say, what are they looking at?

他们一定看到了什么。

They must be looking at something.

我见过一个更搞笑的变体：有人走进电梯，里面已经有五位研究助理站着。

I've seen a variation of this that is actually even funnier, where you have people walking into an elevator, and you have a group of, you know, five research assistants who are basically standing in the elevator.

然后一个人进来，这个人就是毫不知情的受试者。

And then a person comes in, and this is the person who is the unsuspecting study participant.

接着，这五个人一起转向电梯的同一个方向。

And then all five people turn and face in one direction on the elevator.

他们转向左边。

They turn to the left.

然后这个可怜的第六个人环顾四周，看到五个人都朝左看，便慢慢羞怯地转过身去，也朝左看。

And then this poor sixth person looks around and sees five people facing to the left and slowly, sheepishly turns around and looks to the left.

七秒钟后，所有人都转过身，看向电梯的后方。

And after seven seconds, everyone turns and looks to the back of the elevator.

这个人又转了一次。

And this person turns again.

你看到了这些视频，那个可怜的人完全根据其他五个人的行为，缓慢地在电梯里转来转去。

And you have these videos of this poor person basically slowly turning around in the elevator based on what these other five people are doing.

这真实地描绘出了你所描述的情形。

And it really paints a picture of exactly what you're talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

我同情这些研究中的参与者，但这确实是一种非常人性化的反应。

My heart goes out to those participants in those studies, but it's such a human thing.

对吧？

Right?

当我们走进任何环境时，这真是人类的天性。

It's such a human thing when we walk into any environment.

我们不知道该做什么。

We don't know what to do.

我们会自然而然地模仿周围人的行为。

We default to what others around us are doing.

当我们回来时，鲍比有机会在另一次徒步旅行中挽回自己，同时还有关于如何正视怀疑以在日常生活中做出更好决策的策略。

When we come back, Bobby gets the chance to redeem himself on another hiking trip, plus strategies for leaning into doubt to make better decisions in your own life.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

你的人生中是否曾有过被驱使着迅速做决定的时刻？

Have you had moments in your life when you felt impelled to make a quick decision?

结果好吗？

Did it turn out well?

结果糟透了吗？

Did it turn out disastrously?

如果你愿意与《隐藏的思维》的听众分享你生活中的一个故事，请找一个非常安静的房间，或者穿上衣服的壁橱里，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a story you'd be willing to share from your own life with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room or a walk in clothes closet and record a voice memo on your phone.

把它发送到我们的邮箱：ideashiddenbrain dot org。

Email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：doubt。

Use the subject line doubt.

我们通常认为怀疑是一件坏事。

We generally think of doubt as a bad thing.

我们的大脑天生追求确定性。

Our minds are wired for certainty.

对某件事没有答案会让人感到不适，甚至具有威胁性。

Not knowing the answer to something feels uncomfortable, even threatening.

鲍比·帕马尔是《化不确定为必然成功》一书的作者。

Bobby Parmar is the author of Turning Uncertainty into Surefire Success.

他说，怀疑不一定要成为敌人。

He says doubt doesn't have to be the enemy.

事实上，它可以成为我们的朋友。

In fact, it can be our friend.

鲍比，我们之前聊过你去怀俄明州的旅行，以及你们在寻找露营地时迷路的经历。

Bobby, we talked earlier about your trip to Wyoming and how you got yourself and the rest of your crew lost looking for a campsite.

那件事发生一年后，你去了巴塔哥尼亚。

A year after that happened, you went to Patagonia.

我从未去过那里。

I've never visited.

给我描述一下那里的地貌，以及你是怎么踏上这次旅程的。

Describe the landscape to me and how you came to be on this trip.

巴塔哥尼亚是一个无论你朝哪个方向看，景色都美得令人惊叹的地方。

Patagonia is a place where in every direction you look, the vistas are incredibly beautiful.

我从未去过任何一个地方，每看一眼都如此令人心醉神迷。

I've never been to a place where every direction you look is just breathtaking.

这是一年之后，我带着12名MBA学生，他们现在正在巴塔哥尼亚的野外参加户外领导力课程。

This is a year later, and I'm with 12 of my MBA students, also now taking outdoor leadership course in the wilderness in Patagonia.

我们刚刚在一座积雪覆盖的山顶扎营，目标是找到靠近河流的新营地。

And so we had just camped at the summit of a very snowy peak, and our goal was to find our new base camp near a river.

所以我们必须下山，找到这条河，然后沿着河流走向我们的新营地。

So we had to come off the mountain, find this river, and then follow the rivers aways to our new campsite.

我们开始下山，很快便离开了山峰的岩石地带，进入了一片茂密的森林。

So we start to hike down, and very quickly, we come off of the kind of rocky peak of the mountain into densely wooded forest.

因此，我们很难看清前方的路。

So it's very hard to see where we're going.

我当时想，我们只是在下山而已。

And, you know, I thought to myself at the time, look, we're just descending a mountain.

能有多难呢？

How hard can it be?

不就是往下走吗？

You're just going down.

但很快，我们就接连遇到深谷和茂密的灌木丛，发现自己被困住了。

But very quickly, we started to hit ravine after ravine or thick brush after thick brush, and we found ourselves pretty trapped.

我们竟然不知道该如何下山，尽管这听起来很简单。

We didn't know how to descend a mountain, as simple as it sounds.

那一刻，我感受到的恐惧，和当年在怀俄明州时一模一样。

And in that moment, I felt very similar to how I felt when I was in Wyoming.

尽管我们身处完全不同的半球，却有种似曾相识的感觉。

Despite despite being, on a completely different hemisphere, it was like deja vu.

鲍比，我想知道，你有没有利用去年在怀俄明州的经历来应对这次的情况？

I'm wondering whether you used what happened to you the previous year in Wyoming to help you in this situation, Bobby.

你做了什么？

What did you do?

这次，我没有让急于到达营地的念头左右我。

So this time, I didn't let, you know, my desire to make it to base camp get the better of me.

于是，我和学生们没有一味向前冲，也没有轻易放弃，而是决定原路返回山上，以便更好地看清我们所处的位置。

And so together with my students, instead of barreling forward or giving up too quickly, we decided to actually hike back up the mountain so we could get a better view of where we were.

我们成功回到了山上，并开始勘察不同的路线。

And so we made it back up the mountain and started to trace out different paths.

看。

Look.

如果我们往这边走，那边似乎有个峡谷。

If we walk down this way, then it looks like there's a ravine that way.

我们不该走那边。

We shouldn't go that way.

那走这边怎么样？

What about going this way?

我们尝试了多种不同的方案，最终找到了一个我们认为最安全的。

And we tried out multiple different options until we found one that we felt was safest.

这次，与其觉得爬回山上是浪费时间或效率低下，不如说这是对学习的一种投资。

This time, instead of feeling like hiking back up the mountain is a waste of time or inefficient, it was like an investment in learning.

这是一种表达方式，你知道吗？

It was a way of saying, you know what?

是的，虽然我们没有直线朝着目标前进，但它让我们能够退后一步，看清自己的位置，从而真正抵达目标。

Yes, it's not moving in a straight line to our goal, but it's allowing us to zoom out and see where we are so we do actually reach our goal.

你知道吗，这让我想起了一件我觉得归因于爱因斯坦的事情。

You know, this reminds me in some ways of something that I think is ascribed to Albert Einstein.

他曾说过，如果我有一小时来解决一个复杂的问题，我会花五十五分钟思考问题，五分钟思考解决方案。

He once said, if I had an hour to solve a complex problem, I would spend fifty five minutes thinking about the problem and five minutes thinking about the solution.

在某种程度上，这与你在这里所谈论的完全一致。

In some ways, that mirrors exactly what you're talking about here.

是的。

Yeah.

我也很喜欢这句名言。

I love that quote as well.

但棘手的是，当你试图让人们思考问题而非解决方案时，这可能会非常痛苦。

But the tricky thing is that when you try to get people to think about the problem and not the solution, that can be very painful.

人们不喜欢这么做。

People don't like doing that.

我们总是急于寻找解决方案，因为那部分感觉比真正面对问题要有趣得多。

We jump to solutions because that part feels so much more fun than really wrestling with a problem.

我正在努力改变自己在谈论怀疑时的语言，我逐渐意识到，怀疑并不是我们去忍受的东西。

One one of the things I'm trying to change about my own language when we when I talk about doubt is that I've learned that doubt isn't something that we sit with.

对吧？

Right?

与怀疑共处听起来像是一个非常被动的行为。

Sitting with doubt feels like this very passive thing.

没有人愿意与令人不适的东西共处。

No one wants to sit with something that's uncomfortable.

我注意到，那些在不确定性条件下善于做决策的人，都会积极地面对怀疑。

What I've noticed when I examine people who are really good at making decisions under conditions of uncertainty is they're actively engaging the doubt.

所以他们会明确指出怀疑的具体内容。

So they're naming what it is.

他们会提出各种假设，思考如何应对它。

They're generating hypotheses about how to address it.

他们会分析这些假设中的优势和劣势。

They're looking for strengths and weaknesses in those hypotheses.

他们会尝试不同的解决方案，所有这些都非常主动且投入。

They're playing with different solutions, all of which are very active and engaged.

你和其他人提出的一种利用怀疑的方式，就是将其作为一种假设构建的练习，这一点在一项关于军事指挥官如何做决策的研究中得到了体现。

One of the ways that you and others suggest that we can use doubt, as this kind of hypothesis building exercise is, demonstrated in a study that looked at how military officers come up with decisions.

给我讲讲这项研究以及它的发现。

Tell me about the study and what it found.

这项研究非常有趣。

This is such an interesting study.

他们收集了关于战场情境的大量复杂信息，包括天气、各支军队的方位和位置、它们的部署情况、后勤和武器装备。

So what they did is they compiled all of this complex information about a battlefield scenario, the weather, the direction and location of different armies, and where they were situated, their logistics and weapons.

然后，他们将这些复杂的信息提供给两类参与者。

And they gave all of this complex information to two types of participants.

一些是新手，他们是上尉；另一些则经验丰富，是将军。

Some were novices, they were captains, and others were much more experienced, they were generals.

他们要求这两组人都做一件事：

And what they asked both of these groups to do is to say,

你为什么不先通读一下这些

why don't you read through all of

复杂的资料？

this complex information?

这些信息是相互矛盾且不确定的。

It's, you know, conflicting and uncertain.

然后写下你想提出的问题，并制定一个策略。

And write down some questions that you wanna ask, and then write down a strategy.

在这种情况下，你认为你应该怎么做？

What do you think you should do in this situation?

在收集了所有这些信息后，他们请了一个独立的评审小组来评估这两个群体提出的问题和策略——一个是新手群体（上尉），另一个是更有经验的群体（将军）。

And so after they captured all that information, they had an independent panel of judges look at the questions and the strategies of both of these groups, one novice group, the captains, and the more experienced group, the generals.

他们注意到了一些非常有趣的模式。

And they noticed some really interesting patterns.

他们发现，新手更倾向于把直觉当作最终决定。

The patterns that they noticed were novices were much more likely to treat their intuition as if it was their decision.

我认为这就是我们在战场上应该采取的行动，而这些数据也表明我的策略是正确的。

I think this is what we should do in the battle, and here's some data that suggests that my strategy is the right strategy.

在拥有完全相同信息的情况下，专家们却认为这些数据更加复杂和微妙。

With the exact same information, experts saw that data as much more complicated and nuanced.

他们选择不把直觉当作决定，而是当作一种假设。

They decided to treat their intuition not as a decision, but as a hypothesis.

他们在不断追问关键的不确定性问题。

They were asking questions about key uncertainties.

他们制定了灵活的策略，并配备了应对方案。

They built strategies that were flexible and had mitigation strategies.

所以他们会想，如果出了问题，我们该如何应对？

So they how could we fall back if something goes wrong?

即使拥有相同的信息，他们的思维方式也比新手更加谨慎和细致。

The level of their thinking was just much more careful and nuanced than the novices, even with the same information.

Bobby，有没有证据表明这一点在不同行业中都成立？

Is there evidence that this is true across different industries, Bobby?

这一发现已在许多不同领域得到重复验证。

This is a finding that's been replicated in lots of different domains.

你知道，那些善于应对疑虑的有经验者，对周围环境的敏感度要高得多。

You know, people who are experienced dealing with doubt are just much more sensitive to their surroundings.

当我们观察那些有经验的创业者——那些创办过多家企业的创业者时，他们在谈论商业构想时，更能看出这个构想可能对不同利益相关者产生的各种影响。

So when we look at expert entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs who've started several businesses, when they talk about a business concept, they're just much more able to see, here are all the ways in which this business concept could impact different stakeholders.

他们能够评估这个商业构想可能带来的非预期后果。

They're able to assess what are the unintended outcomes of this business concept.

他们还能思考这个商业理念的第二层或第三层后果。

And they can also think about here, like, the second or third order consequences of this business concept.

他们只是更谨慎的思考者。

They're just much more careful thinkers.

当我们观察护士时，护士在做出不确定的诊断时，相比新手护士，会为同一个病人收集两倍的数据。

When we look at nurses, when nurses are making an uncertain diagnosis, they collect twice as much data when compared to novice nurses about the exact same patient.

经验丰富的律师更能敏锐地观察法庭动态，并根据陪审团的反应实时调整自己的论点。

Expert lawyers are much better at scanning the courtroom and adapting their arguments in real time based on what they're seeing in the jury.

经验丰富的作家花在修改草稿上的时间远多于新手作家。

Expert writers spend a lot more time revising their drafts than novice writers.

所有这些都表明，那些在应对不确定性和疑虑方面有经验的人，对周围环境更敏感，并且更注重学习。

All of this suggests that people who are experienced when it comes to dealing with uncertainty and doubt are more sensitive to their surrounding, and they're investing in learning.

他们并不是急于追求一个正确的答案。

They're not investing in trying to get to a right answer quickly.

我的意思是，这几乎是个悖论，鲍比。

I mean, it's almost a paradox, Bobby.

最有经验的人往往最不愿意快速得出结论。

The people who are the most experienced are the most hesitant to quickly come to a conclusion.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得特别有趣的是，我们很多人并不处于行业顶尖，也没有管理组织，不觉得自己是专家，却会看着专家说：哇，他们有正确的答案，而且看起来如此果断。

That's what I think is so interesting is many of us who are not at the top of our industry or running organizations, who don't see ourselves as experts, look at experts and say, wow, they have the right answer, and look how decisive they are.

但当你花时间与那些拥有丰富经验和专业技能的人相处时，你会发现他们实际上在投入时间成为我所说的‘更好的问题解决者’，而不是‘正确答案的获取者’。

And then when you spend time with people who have significant experience and expertise, they're actually investing time in becoming what I call better answer makers, not right answer getters.

你说这些研究指向了另一个我们可以用来做出更好决策的重要策略，那就是‘异常化’。

You say that some of this work points to another important strategy we can use to make better decisions, and it's called analyzing.

异常化是什么意思呢，鲍比？

What is is a normalizing, Bobby?

异常化基本上就是寻找那些早期信号，表明某些事情正在偏离我们的预期。

Anomalizing is basically looking for very early signals that something is departing from our expectations.

回到我在怀俄明州的时候，看着山脊线，心想：等等。

Going back all the way to when I was in Wyoming, looking at the ridgeline and saying, wait.

这与我们预期的情况非常不同，如果湖在附近，那会是一种正常化现象。

This is really different than what we would expect if the lake was nearby would be a form of normalizing.

作为父母，说：‘哦，我的孩子没吃午饭。’

As a parent, saying, oh, my kid isn't eating their lunch.

我怀疑是不是出了什么问题，这就是正常化。

I wonder if something is going wrong is normalizing.

所以，这是在寻找早期的微弱信号，表明我们的预期可能没有如我们所料那样实现。

So it's looking for early weak signals that maybe our expectations aren't turning out the way that we anticipate.

换句话说，你试图做的是思考：我可能错在哪里？

In other words, what you're trying to do is you're trying to say, how can I be wrong?

没错。

Exactly.

在团队和组织中练习这一点的一个绝佳方法是所谓的‘事前验尸’。

And a great way of practicing that in teams, in organizations, is something that's called a premortem.

所以，你会拿一个想法或策略来分析，比如我们要推出一款新产品，或者要改变某个内部流程。

So you take an idea, a strategy, we're going to launch a new product, or we're going to change this internal process.

在做任何事情之前，我们会说：好吧，让我们想象一下，这个产品已经上线了，或者这个流程已经改变了，三周后它失败了，彻底垮了。

And before doing anything, we say, okay, let's imagine that we launched this product or we changed this process, and three weeks later, it failed, It died.

最可能导致失败的原因是什么？

What is the most likely cause of death?

我们可能失败的最可能原因是什么？

What is the most likely reason that we might fail?

通过预判这种最可能的失败原因，我们就可以提前采取措施。

And by anticipating that most likely reason of failure, we can do something about it ahead of time.

在某种程度上，这建立在一个非常有趣的想法之上，即我们许多人某种程度上能够回溯一个决定，并理解这个决定是如何发生的。

In some ways, this builds on a very interesting idea, which is that many of us in some ways are able to look back at a decision and understand how that decision happened.

我们有一种叫做后见之明偏见的东西。

We have what's called hindsight bias.

所以，某种程度上，这是在利用我们倾向于回溯已经发生的事件的倾向，试图将这种后见之明偏见前瞻性地运用起来：假设坏事已经发生了。

So in some ways, this is taking advantage of our propensity to look back at an event that's already happened and try and use that hindsight bias in some ways prospectively to say, let's assume the bad thing has happened.

让我们试着解释为什么这个坏事会发生。

Let's try and explain why this bad thing had happened.

现在你利用这个事实调查，本质上是在问：我们如何在问题发生之前就解决它？

And now you're using this this fact finding mission to basically say, how can we fix the problem before it happens?

没错。

That's right.

我们该如何解决问题？

How can we fix the problem?

或者如果我们遇到了问题，如何保持适应性和灵活性，绕过它？

Or if we run into the problem, how can we be adaptable and flexible to work our way around it?

你举了Airbnb这个非常有趣的例子。

You give the very interesting example of Airbnb.

它显然是一个价值数十亿美元的公司，拥有全球数百万个房源，显然是巨大的成功。

It's obviously a multibillion dollar company with millions of properties around the world, clearly a huge success.

但在2007年，你说这家公司濒临破产。

But in 2,007, you say the company was on the verge of bankruptcy.

当时发生了什么，鲍比？

What was happening, Bobby?

Airbnb 是一个绝妙的点子。

Airbnb is a brilliant idea.

你知道，当你在纸上或演示文稿中看它时，让人们出租或租赁他们的房产听起来非常合理。

You know, when you look at it on paper or on slide decks, the idea of having people rent out or lease their properties makes so much sense.

但在实际执行这个想法的过程中，创始人发现他们还需要做更多工作。

But in the actual implementation of the idea, the founders learned that they had some more work to do.

所以早期，他们开始说：看，我们打造了一个完美的系统。

So early on, they started to say, look, we built this beautiful system.

人们可以出租他们的房产。

People can lease their properties.

后台的财务系统运行得非常好。

The back end financial system works really well.

信用卡交易也能顺利进行。

You can get credit card transactions to work.

但就是没人实际租用房产，他们搞不清楚原因。

But no one was actually renting properties, and they couldn't figure out why.

于是他们产生了浓厚的兴趣，心想：为什么不花点时间与一些客户面对面交流呢？

So they got really curious, and they said, why don't we spend some time with some of our customers?

他们观察客户实际使用Airbnb网站的过程。

And they watched customers actually navigate the Airbnb website.

他们最早发现的一个问题是，当时人们在发布曼哈顿的房源时，使用的都是像素模糊的手机照片。

And one of the first things they learned is at the time when people were posting their properties in Manhattan, they were posting very grainy cell phone photos.

因此，你根本看不清所租住房屋的质量。

So you couldn't see the quality of the place that you were renting.

人们会说：为什么我要花每晚250或300美元住这样一个模糊不清的地方？

And people would say, well, why would I spend $250 or $300 a night for this place that really grainy?

我根本看不清它到底是什么样子。

I can't quite tell what it is.

同样的价格，我完全可以住进一家非常不错的酒店。

I could stay in a really nice hotel for the same price.

于是这促使他们提出了另一个假设：为什么不请专业人士为这些房源拍摄一些专业照片呢？

And so that led them to this other hypothesis, which is why don't we have someone take professional photos of some of these properties?

他们很快发现，带有专业照片的房源出租得非常快。

And they found very quickly that properties with professional photos rented very quickly.

这个故事的重要之处在于，我们在做决策时，常常只关注‘做什么’。

And what's important about this story is that many times when we're making decisions, we focus on the what.

我们要建立什么样的业务，才能让人们顺利出租他们的房产？

What's the business that we build in order to get people to be able to rent out property that they have?

我们对‘怎么做’的关注却少得多。

We spend less attention to the how.

当我们只关注‘做什么’时，很容易形成一个宏大而抽象的愿景，其中充满了各种隐含的假设。

And when we we focus on the what, it's really easy to have a big abstract vision that has lots of assumptions baked into it.

有很多事情我们并不了解，但我们却能说服自己是对的。

There's lots of things that we don't know, And we can convince ourselves that we're right.

但当我们关注‘怎么做’时，就必须变得更加具体，这会促使我们以更严谨、更细致的方式想象如何从A点到达B点。

But when we focus on the how, we have to become much more specific, and it focuses us to imagine with much more discipline and much more detail how we're gonna get from point a to point b.

鲍比，这也让我想到，你所谈论的很多内容都与科学方法密切相关。

It also strikes me, Bobby, that so much of what you're talking about is so closely connected with the scientific method.

如果你思考一下科学本身在过去两个世纪中为何如此有效，很大程度上是因为它拥抱了怀疑、接纳了不确定性，并通过实验来检验观点，而不是仅仅依赖直觉。

That if you think about why science itself has been effective, so radically effective over the last two centuries, so much of it has been about the embrace of doubt, the embrace of uncertainty, the testing of ideas as opposed to just going with your gut.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这完全正确。

I think that's exactly right.

观察、提出假设、检验这些假设，进而引发新的观察，这对学习至关重要。

Observation, generation of hypothesis, testing those hypotheses, and then leading to new observations is critical to learning.

我认为，在思考科学方法的重要性时，特别需要强调的是，我们常常把学习视为一种主要的认知活动。

What I think is really important to underscore when we think about the importance of the scientific method is that many times we think about learning as a predominantly cognitive endeavor.

但

But

当我们拥抱怀疑时，就必须认识到，学习同样是一种社会性和情感性的过程。

when we embrace doubt, we have to understand that learning is just as much a social and emotional endeavor.

当我们认真对待怀疑时，就会高度重视人们在情感和社会层面体验世界的方式，以保障学习的有效性。

And when we take doubt seriously, we take very seriously the way that people experience the world, both emotionally and socially, to preserve learning.

所以我从这一点中得到了几个想法。

So I'm getting a couple of things from this.

首先，我认为当我们静下心来面对问题，面对我们对问题可能产生的疑虑或不确定性时，我们会开始意识到这个问题的复杂性。

One is that I think when we sit with the problem and we sit with the doubts that we might have about a problem or sit with the uncertainties involved in the problem, we start to see first how complex the problem is.

事实上，它比我们之前所认为的要复杂得多。

And in fact, it's more complex than we might have allowed previously.

但其次，我们也会发现，实际上比我们最初想到的解决方案更多。

But second, we also discover that there are actually more solutions than we initially thought about.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

当我们无法正视怀疑时，在决策过程的各个阶段——从界定问题、生成备选方案、测试这些方案到实施——我们都会无意中缩短或仓促跳过。

When we cannot engage doubt, there are all kinds of phases in the decision making process, from framing a problem to generating alternatives to testing those alternatives to implementation that we can inadvertently shortchange or rush through.

而当我们能够正视怀疑，将其视为学习的信号时，我们就不会仓促跳过这些阶段。

And when we're able to engage doubt, when we see it as a signal for learning, we don't rush through those stages.

我们能够更有效地创造新颖的方案，并更有效地实施它们。

We can be much more effective in creating novel options, in implementing more effectively.

我认为关于怀疑，有一件重要的事要记住：它就像我们在健身房做第八或第九次重复训练时感受到的灼烧感。

I think one of the important things to remember about doubt is that it's like the burn that we feel when we're working out at the gym on rep eight or rep nine.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们在这个时刻放弃，就会错失真正变强的机会。

If we were to give up in that moment, we'd be foregoing actually getting stronger.

我把怀疑比作那种灼烧感。

And I think about doubt as that burn.

它是一种信号，表明我即将变得更有能力。

It's that it's a signal that I'm about to become much more capable.

在那一刻，我即将变得更强大或更睿智。

I'm about to become stronger or wiser in that moment.

因此，当我们经历怀疑时，记住它是一种成长的信号，而不是我们不够聪明的信号，这非常重要。

And so when we experience doubt, remembering that it's a signal for growth rather than a signal that we're not smart is really important.

巴比，你怎么看待那些今天表现得极其自信的政治领袖？

What do you make of political leaders who sound extremely confident today, Bobby?

当我看新闻，看到人们以极大的信心断言两年后如果实施或不实施某项政策会发生什么时，你心里怎么想？

I'm wondering when you watch the news and you see people make pronouncements with great confidence about things that will happen two years from now if a particular policy is implemented or not implemented, what goes through your head?

我觉得在那些时刻，你只是在向你的观众提供一种成瘾性物质。

One of the things that I think in those moments is that, you know, it just feels like you're offering an addictive substance to your audience.

在那一刻，你的观众会觉得：啊，终于有确定性了。

That in that moment, your audience is like, ah, there's some certainty.

我知道这件事一定会发生。

I know this will happen.

而你就在那一刻把人们带了进去。

And you're pulling people along in that moment.

没有人能做出这些承诺，但听上去却让人感觉太好了。

No one can make those promises, but it feels so good to hear them in the moment.

这就像是提供了一种让人难以拒绝的成瘾性物质，即使他们可能知道这不符合他们长期的最佳利益。

So it's like offering some addictive substance that people have a hard time saying no to, even if they might know that it's not in their best long term interest.

换句话说，即使他们过去在某种程度上被误导或失望过，因为你的先前承诺未能实现，但你所提供的这种确定性，就像一种毒品，它减轻了我内心的不确定性，让我感觉更好。

In other words, even if they have been in some ways misled or disappointed in the past because your previous promises have failed to materialize, the the certainty that you're offering in some ways feels like a drug that basically says it it limits the uncertainty I'm feeling, and that makes me feel better.

在信息时代，我们必须特别警惕一种风险，那就是对‘感觉正确’的上瘾。

One of the things we have to really be careful of in the information age is this risk of the addiction to feeling right.

我们所有的社交媒体环境都可以被完全设计成帮助我们对现有的信念感到安心。

All of our social media environments can be completely manufactured to help us feel good about our existing set of beliefs.

由于我们太习惯于感觉正确，许多人开始将‘不确定’的感觉视为非常不舒服。

And many of us come to associate that feeling of not knowing as very uncomfortable because we're so used to feeling right.

这可能是一种令人上瘾的东西。

It can be an addictive thing.

比丁·帕马尔是《激进的怀疑：将不确定性转化为显著成功》的作者。

Bidin Parmar is the author of Radical Doubt, Turning Uncertainty into Showfire Success.

博比·帕马尔，非常感谢你今天做客《HIT and BRAIN》。

Bobby Parmar, thank you so much for joining me today on HIT and BRAIN.

尚卡尔，能和你交谈真是非常愉快。

Shankar, it was such a pleasure.

如果你有关于如何应对怀疑的个人故事，愿意与《隐藏大脑》的听众分享，或者对本期节目有任何问题或评论，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a personal story about dealing with doubt that you would be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience or a question or comment about this episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

将文件发送至反馈隐藏大脑点 org（feedbackhiddenbrain dot org）。

Email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：怀疑。

Use the subject line doubt.

这个邮箱地址再重复一遍：反馈隐藏大脑点 org（feedbackhiddenbrain dot org）。

That email address again is feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

本期节目是我们为期一个月的‘你2.0’系列的收官之作。

Today's episode is the conclusion to our month long You two point zero series.

在过去几周里，我们探讨了勇气、耐心以及螺旋式心理的运作机制。

Over the past few weeks, we have talked about courage, patience, and the psychology of spiraling.

我们还研究了当你陷入困境时该怎么做。

We've also looked at what to do when you get stuck in a rut.

如果你错过了这些节目中的任何一期，你可以在本播客的订阅源中找到，或者访问 hiddenbrain.org。

If you missed any of these episodes, you can find them in this podcast feed or at hiddenbrain.org.

我们回来后，当别人给我们反馈而我们反应糟糕时，究竟发生了什么？

When we come back, what's really happening when someone gives us feedback and we react badly?

研究员艾米莉·福尔克再次做客节目，回答听众关于防御心理的问题。

Researcher Emily Falk returns to the show to answer listeners' questions about defensiveness.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

你知道你不该说任何话。

You know you shouldn't say anything.

这其实没什么大不了的。

It's really not such a big deal.

你告诉自己，为了和平，忍一忍吧。

You tell yourself to keep the peace.

毕竟，你伴侣把洗碗机装错真的那么重要吗？

After all, does it really matter that your partner loads the dishwasher all wrong?

但你脑海里那个小小的声音却在低语：这很重要。

But it does matter whispers the little voice in your head.

你难道不记得上周打碎的那杯葡萄酒了吗？

Don't you remember the wine glass that broke last week?

在我们每个人的生活中，身边的人总会做一些让我们抓狂的事。

In all of our lives, the people around us do things that drive us up the wall.

如果不是伴侣装洗碗机的方式，那就是父亲倒车入库的方式，或是同事在会议上总爱打断你的习惯。

If it's not the way your partner loads the dishwasher, it's the way your dad backs into a parking space or your colleague's annoying tendency to interrupt you in a meeting.

有时候，我们会选择让这些事过去。

Sometimes we let these things slide.

其他时候，我们会感到有必要说出来，无论是为了自己还是为了对方的利益。

At other times, we feel compelled to speak up, either for our own sake or for the other person's benefit.

但要从这种反馈中获得良好的结果并不容易。

But getting a good result from this sort of feedback is not easy.

对方很可能会觉得我们在挑刺或唠叨。

Chances are the other person will feel that we are picking on them or nagging.

他们会变得防御性十足。

They will become defensive.

那么，我们该如何让给予和接受反馈的过程不那么紧张呢？

So what can we do to make the process of giving and receiving feedback a little less fraught?

这时，艾米莉·福尔克就登场了。

That's where Emily Falk comes in.

她是宾夕法尼亚大学的心理学家，也是我们之前一期《隐藏的思维》节目的嘉宾，那期节目名为《这不是我的错》。

She's a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania and our guest on a previous episode of Hidden Brain titled It's Not My Fault.

今天，艾米莉重返节目，回应你们对我们最新一期‘你的问题解答’环节的评论。

Today, Emily returns to the show to address your comments in our latest installment of our popular segment, Your Questions Answered.

艾米莉·福尔克，欢迎再次回到《隐藏的思维》。

Emily Falk, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

谢谢你们再次邀请我。

Thanks for having me back.

艾米莉，我们在之前的对话中提到，我们对反馈产生防御反应的一个原因是，我们的大脑会将‘我’与‘好’联系在一起。

Emily, you pointed out in our earlier conversation that one reason we respond defensively to feedback is because our minds associate what is me with what is good.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

在我们的大脑中，有一个叫做价值系统的机制，它帮助我们判断事物是好是坏，是否对我们有吸引力。

Well, in our brains, we have a system called the value system that helps us evaluate whether things are good or bad, likely to be rewarding for us.

我们还有一个自我相关系统，帮助我们判断某事物是否与‘我’有关。

And we also have a self relevance system that helps us decide whether things are me or not me.

有趣的是，这两个系统彼此紧密相连。

And interestingly, those two systems are really intertwined with one another.

因此，那些用来区分某种特质（比如杂乱或聪明）是否适用于我的大脑模式，同样也能区分我看到的图像是否是正面的——比如生日派对，还是负面的——比如一堆垃圾或血腥场景。

So the same kinds of brain patterns that differentiate between whether I think that a particular trait, like messy or intelligent, applies to me, can also differentiate whether I'm looking at an image that I think is positive, like a birthday party or negative, like a pile of trash or a gory scene.

在我们的日常生活中，这种现象体现在许多方面，首先就是我们所保留的实物。

And in our day to day lives, this comes up in so many different places, starting with the physical things that we hold on to.

所以最近我一直在大量思考。

So right now, I've been thinking a lot.

我一直在帮助妈妈整理她家里的物品。

I've been helping my mom navigate clearing out stuff in her house.

我们已经安排好下周有搬家公司将她家剩下的东西全部运走。

And we have movers scheduled to come and take the rest of the stuff out of her house next week.

为了准备这件事，我最近花了大量时间整理我童年的许多物品。

And in preparation for that, I have spent so much time recently going through a lot of my childhood things.

其中一些东西非常重要，我会珍藏起来，比如我爸爸给我做的那张小木凳，上面还刻着一个字母‘E’，那是我小时候的。

So some of those things are really important and things that I'm gonna hold dear, like the stool that my dad made for me, the the little wooden stool that has an e on it when I was a kid.

这个东西，我100%会留下来。

That, a 100%, I'm keeping.

但还有一些东西只会造成杂乱。

But then there's also stuff that would just be clutter.

比如那些高中和大学时记下的、每本都有几百页笔记的教科书和笔记本。

Like, all of the textbooks and notebooks that have hundreds of pages of notes that I took in high school and college.

比如我高中时学过的中美洲革命相关内容，现在有更多书籍能比当年16岁的我更全面地描述那些情况。

Like, the things that I learned about, you know, revolutions in Central America in high school, there are books that do a much better job of describing those situations than my, you know, partial understanding as a 16 year old.

但翻看那些笔记本，看到自己的笔迹，回想起当时的自己，真的很难把这些东西丢掉。

And yet, going through those notebooks and seeing my handwriting and thinking about who I was at the time, it feels so hard to let go of those things and throw them out.

我想这是因为，我认为属于我的东西，其价值也以一种不同于他人笔记的方式被赋予了。

And I think that comes from this idea that things that I think of as me are also then kind of inherently valuable in a different way than, you know, looking at somebody else's notebook.

我能意识到，这些可能并不需要保留。

I can see that that's probably not something that that I need to keep.

因此，自我与价值的这种交织有时非常有益，因为它帮助我们维持积极的自我认知。

And so that intertwining of self and value is sometimes really beneficial because it helps us maintain a positive sense of self.

但它也可能让我们陷入困境，因为我们紧紧抓住过去做过的事情，或认为属于自我的东西不放。

But it can also get us in trouble because we hold really tightly to the things that we've done in the past or to things that we think of as being part of us.

换句话说，当你的伴侣告诉你洗碗机装错了，你听到的不只是洗碗机可能有另一种装法。

So in other words, when your partner tells you that you're loading the dishwasher wrong, you're not just hearing that there might be a different way to load the dishwasher.

你实际上也在某种程度上感受到对自我认同的攻击。

You're also hearing in some ways an attack on this sense of self.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们倾向于将自我与价值混为一谈，这恰恰会让我们陷入困境。

I think that the ways that we tend to conflate self and value can get us in trouble in exactly that way.

别人给我们的建议、指导或反馈，原本可能是对我们有益的。

That somebody is giving us advice or coaching or input that might otherwise be beneficial for us.

但我们没有听到其中可能蕴含的宝贵真知，反而听到了一些关于我是谁、我能力如何，甚至是对更大范围事物的评判。

And instead of hearing the potentially valuable kernel of truth, we hear something that is suggesting all kinds of things about who we are and maybe what we're capable of or evaluating something bigger than might be at stake there.

我们在《隐性大脑》节目中经常提到一点：我们评价自己是依据自己的意图，但别人并不一定知道我们真正的意图。

One of the things we talk about with some regularity on Hidden Brain is the fact that we assess ourselves by our intentions, but other people don't necessarily know what we intended to do.

他们只能看到我们的行为。

They can only see our actions.

你认为，正是因为我们了解自己的想法和意图，才会在别人批评我们的行为时感到防御吗？

Do you think the fact that we have insight into our own thoughts and intentions is why we feel defensive sometimes when someone critiques our actions?

这是一种非常有趣的角度来阐述这个问题。

That's a really interesting way of framing it.

我认为，我们能够理解自己行为背后的原因，这一观点对于作为批评者的人来说是非常宝贵的洞察。

I think that this idea that we can understand why we did something is such a valuable insight for when we're the person giving the critique.

因此，当我们考虑如何向伴侣提出改变洗碗机装载方式的请求时，他们脑海中可能有许多我们无法了解的因素。

So when we think about how we're gonna frame the request for our partner to load the dishwasher differently, there might be all kinds of things that are on their minds that we don't have access to.

所以你提出的观点是，在另一方，我们也认为自己行为的原因显而易见。

And so what you're proposing is that on the other side of it, we also think it's really obvious why we did what we did.

我们当天已经发生的事情，或者过去的一些经历，都让我们有太多明显的理由来解释自己的行为。

There are so many reasons that are salient in terms of what happened already in our day or other past experiences we've had.

这是一个极易引发各种误解的领域。

That's a space that's rife for miscommunication of of all kinds.

没错。

Right.

我在想一位教练，他正在给运动员提建议，要求运动员做一些能提升表现的事情。

I'm thinking about a coach who's basically advising an athlete and is asking the athlete to do something that would improve the athlete's performance.

而运动员会想：但你并不知道我有多累，有多疲惫，我脑子里正同时处理着多少事情。

And the athlete is thinking, but you don't know how exhausted I am, how tired I am, how many different things I'm juggling in my head.

你只是要求我再做这一件事，却完全没有关注那些让我难以遵从你建议的背景因素。

You're just asking me to do this one additional thing, and you're not paying attention to all the context that's gonna make it difficult for me to follow your advice.

哦，我很喜欢你举这个例子，因为我认为教练这个情境是我们都同意了互动规则的。

Oh, I love that you bring up example because I think the coach example is a situation where we've both agreed on the terms of engagement.

对吧？

Right?

我们已经达成共识：如果你是教练，我是运动员，那么我 presumably 已经同意接受你的建议。

We've we've agreed that if you're the coach and I'm the athlete, presumably I've signed up to get your advice.

而且我们也同意，你所做的一切都是为了我的利益，也就是让我在运动或活动中变得更好。

And we've also agreed that you are trying to do something that's in my interest, which is make me better at whatever the sport or activity is.

所以，比如我付钱请你当我的游泳教练，当你给我一些建议时，我就不太可能会说：‘为什么 Shankar 要我这样练？’

So if I'm paying you to be my swim coach, for example, and you give me some advice, it actually really reduces the chance that I'm gonna say, Well, you know, why is Shankar telling me to do it that way?

因为在这种情境下，互动规则比洗碗机的情况清晰得多——在洗碗机这件事上，有太多其他变量在起作用，毕竟我不是你的‘洗碗教练’。

Because the terms of engagement are much clearer than the dishwasher situation where there are so many other variables at play where, you know, I'm not your dishwasher coach.

所以我们并没有真正达成一致，认为我可以就这些家务事给你建议。

And so we haven't actually agreed that I give you input about those kinds of household chores.

对。

Right.

事实上，在某些情况下，我们都认为自己是教练，而对方是我们的学员。

And in fact, in some situations, we both think that we are the coach and the other person is our trainee.

当然。

Of course.

我们听到了几位来电者分享他们与朋友或家人相处时，因给予反馈而引发对方防御的困难。

So we heard from several people who called in to share the difficulties they've had in dealing with friends or family members who get defensive about feedback.

这是我们收到的一位听众凯蒂的留言。

Here's a message we received from listener Katie.

当面对一个对反馈反应过度防御甚至具有攻击性的亲人时，如何保持冷静和内心平和？尤其是当对方的反应显得不成比例或带有个人色彩时？

How can someone stay calm and grounded when dealing with a loved one who becomes highly defensive or even aggressive, especially when the reaction feels disproportionate or personal?

简而言之，你如何尊重他们的感受，同时又不被负面情绪所吞噬或卷入？

Basically, how do you honor their feelings without absorbing or engaging in the negativity?

艾米丽，我真的很喜欢凯蒂提出这个困境的方式。

I really like the way that Katie presents this dilemma, Emily.

当我们进行一场艰难的对话时，承认对方的感受可能很重要。

When we're having a tough conversation, it can be important to acknowledge how the other person is feeling.

但当我们觉得某人的反应与当前情况不成比例时，要完全接纳他们的所有情绪，而不是说‘你只管听我说’，这真的很难。

But when we feel that someone's response is disproportionate to the situation at hand, it can be really difficult to acknowledge all of what they are feeling instead of saying, just listen to me.

是的。

Yeah.

首先，稍微背景介绍一下，目前有大量神经科学研究表明，我们在互动中或甚至只是听一个故事时所带有的假设，会改变我们大脑对它的反应方式。

First of all, just as a little bit of background, there's amazing neuroscience research about the ways that the assumptions that we bring to an interaction or to even just hearing a story change the way that our brains respond to it.

在一项研究中，参与者在听到一个关于某位男子是否出轨的模糊故事之前，被给予了不同的背景信息。

So in research where people were given different backstories before hearing a narrative about a man who it's ambiguous whether he's having an affair.

一半的参与者得到的背景信息明确表明他确实出轨了。

And half of the participants are given a backstory that makes it really clear that he is.

另一半参与者得到的背景信息则明确表明他并没有出轨。

And half of the participants are given a backstory that makes it really clear that he isn't.

然后我们看到，持有第一种背景故事的人，他们的大脑反应彼此非常相似，但却与那些被给予不同背景故事的人显著不同。

And then what we see is that the brain responses of the people who share the first backstory are really similar to one another, but they really diverge from the people who are given the alternative facts, the alternative backstory.

因此，我们的假设也是以这种方式运作的。

And so our assumptions work like that too.

当我们进入一场互动时，我认为我们以为谈话是关于洗碗机的，而你却认为我们的谈话是关于是否花时间做对对方重要的事情，那么，如果我只是觉得这不过是关于什么时候洗碗，这根本不算什么大事。

When we're coming into an interaction, and I think that our conversation is about the dishwasher, and you think that our conversation is about, you know, whether we take time to do things that are important to the other person, then, like, if I'm just thinking this is about when we do the dishes, it shouldn't be a big deal.

但如果你觉得这件事背后牵涉了很多其他因素，那么我们几乎不可能对这场对话产生相同的理解。

But if for you, there's lots of other things that are wrapped up in it, then, you know, it's unlikely that we're gonna make the same meaning of that conversation.

因此，关于凯蒂的评论，我当然不是建议人们在有人不尊重他人或安全受到威胁的情况下仍去参与。

And so, you know, in Katie's comment, I'm certainly not proposing that people engage in situations where somebody is being disrespectful or, you know, where safety's at stake.

但在某种情况下，如果某人的情绪反应比你预期的要强烈得多，我认为保持好奇，并试着询问他们内心究竟发生了什么，会非常有帮助。

But in a situation where it seems like somebody has a bigger emotional response than you were expecting, I think being curious and thinking about asking for a little bit more information about what's going on for them can be really helpful.

现在，有时当我们向他人提供反馈时，他们却表现出防御性，我们就会忍不住问：你为什么这么防御？

Now sometimes when we offer feedback to another person and they react defensively, we are tempted to say, why are you acting defensively?

但事实证明，这种策略并不能有效减少他人的防御行为。

And that turns out not to be a very effective strategy to get somebody to act less defensively.

当你思考自己做出的反应，并问‘你为什么这么防御性地回应？’

When you think about the response that you're making and saying, why are you reacting defensively?

这暗示了某种过错。

That implies a fault in some way.

对吧？

Right?

因为防御性通常不被视为一种积极的互动方式。

Because defensiveness is not typically something that we think of as a positive way of interacting.

这让我想起上周我孩子身上发生的一件事。我有两个双胞胎孩子，他们连续三天放学坐校车回家时都几乎哭着回来。

This reminds me a little bit, actually, of something that happened to me with my kids last week, where I have two kids who are twins, and they came home three days in a row from school off the bus basically in tears.

他们对放学回家路上发生的事感到非常愤怒。

They were so angry about what was happening in their ride home from school.

特别是，车上有一个七岁的小孩，特别擅长挑拨他们，做各种事情来激怒孩子们，引发强烈的情绪反应。

And in particular, what was happening was that there's a seven year old who's on the bus with them who was really effective at dividing them, at sort of doing all kinds of things to provoke to provoke big emotional reactions from the kids.

我的孩子埃梅特一进门就说：‘我真的受不了了。’

And my kid Emmett came in, he was just like, I can't handle this.

这简直太糟糕了。

This is, like, so awful.

他真是太过分了。

Like, he's being terrible.

我说，我觉得和对方聊聊可能会有帮助。

And I said, you know, I think it might be helpful to have a conversation.

比如，你有没有兴趣给那个孩子的妈妈打个电话，我们只是简单谈谈？埃梅特最初的反应是，他非常想这么做，但他想做的其实是向那位妈妈一一列举她孩子行为不当、让自己无法忍受的各种理由，希望她能惩罚那个孩子。

Like, how would you feel about giving the other child's mom a call and we could just And talk about Emmett's initial reaction was that he would really like to do that, but what he would like to do is tell the mom all of the reasons why her child was not behaving in a way that worked for Emmett, and to get her to, you know, punish that kid in some way.

是的。

Uh-huh.

我对他说，我们不能一上来就假设你的朋友有错。

And what I said to him was, Well, we can't really come into the conversation assuming that your friend is at fault here.

因为如果我们带着这种预设去沟通，你觉得对方会有什么反应？

Because if we come in that way, what kind of reaction do you think you're gonna get?

后来，等他稍微转移了注意力、冷静下来之后，我们给对方家庭打了电话，进行了一次非常愉快的交谈。

And eventually, after he had had a minute to, you know, do a different activity, calm down, we called the the other family, and we had a really great conversation.

我认为，经过一些引导后，孩子们得出的关键见解是，这个小男孩非常渴望得到埃米特的注意。

And I think the crux of that, the insight that the kids were able to generate with some coaching was that this younger kid really wanted Emmett's attention.

他真的很想与埃米特互动和玩耍。

He really wanted to be able to engage and to play.

当埃米特在做阅读之类的事情而不与他互动时，这让他感到痛苦或沮丧。

And when Emmett was doing things like reading instead of interacting, that that was painful or frustrating.

因此，他愿意做各种事情来吸引埃米特的注意。

And so he was willing to do all kinds of things in order to get Emmett's attention.

所以，如果埃米特一开始就说：‘我来告诉你你做错的种种原因’，这场电话沟通的走向可能会完全不同。

And so the setup of this phone call, I think, would have gone very differently if Emmett had come in initially saying, here are all the reasons why I think what you're doing is wrong.

那样的话，我们会得到一个防御性的反应。

Then we get a defensive reaction.

我认为埃米特会说，如果事情变成那样，那是因为他没有积极参与对话，是他的错。

And I think Emmett would say that, you know, then it's his fault for not engaging in the conversation.

对吧？

Right?

所以我这么说，是想强调我们设定对话背景的方式至关重要。

And so I say that to say that I think the the way that we set up the context of the conversation matters a lot.

因此，事先建立一种关系非常重要，在这种关系中，我们能够彼此讨论困难的事情，并且默认对方是出于善意的。

And so having some initial relationship where we talk to each other about things that are hard and where we have the assumption that the other person has good intentions is so important.

如果我们一上来就直接进入对抗的时刻，那我们其实已经输掉了这场战斗。

So if we just start with the moment of the confrontation, we've already sort of lost the battle.

对吧？

Right?

我们需要在进入对话前做好心理和情感上的准备，这样才能顺利实现所有那些有益的做法。

We wanna have this mental and emotional preparation going in that makes it possible for us to do all these other things that that are beneficial.

你知道吗，艾米丽，这让我想起心理学家长期以来讨论的一个概念——基本归因错误。

You know, this reminds me, Emily, about this idea that psychologists have talked about for a long time, the fundamental attribution error.

我们往往把别人的错误归因于他们的内在性格，但通常却把自身的错误归咎于环境因素。

We see the mistakes that other people make as reflecting their inner dispositions, but we often see our mistakes as the product of our situations.

换句话说，我们看待自己的失败和错误时会考虑情境，却常常不愿对他人给予同样的宽容。

In other words, we see our failures and mistakes in context, but often fail to extend the same grace to others.

一位名叫迈克尔的听众提出了一个理论，解释为什么人类难以接受批评。

A listener named Michael offered this theory about why humans might be bad at taking criticism.

我想知道，根据法尔克医生的评论，这些趋势在多大程度上是进化让我们能够推卸自身过错责任的结果。

I wonder how much, based on doctor Falk's comments, these trends are the result of evolution making us able to deflect responsibility for our faults.

换句话说，当我成功时，那是我的功劳。

Or put it another way, when I succeed, it's because of me.

我把我的成功归因于我自己。

I attribute my success to me.

而当我失败时，我会把它归咎于我的环境或某种外部威胁。

And when I fail, I attribute it to my environment or some external threat.

我不知道法尔克医生是否会对此发表评论，但非常感谢。

And I I don't know if doctor Falk would ever comment on that, but thank you very much.

你觉得呢，艾米丽？

What do you think, Emily?

我认为迈克尔在这里说得完全正确。

I think Michael is exactly right here.

正如你所说，基本归因错误认为，我们对自己动机以及所有可能促成我们成功的因素都有充分的了解。

As you said, the fundamental attribution error says that we have access to all of this additional information about our own motivations and about all of the things that we've done that might set us up for success.

例如，如果我们为最终的回报付出了大量努力和奉献，这些付出对我们来说是显而易见的。

So for example, if we put in a lot of hard work and dedication leading up to an eventual payoff, it's really obvious to us all of that work that we put in.

同样地，假设我们付出了同样的努力，但却运气不佳，外部环境发生了某些变化，导致事情没有如我们预期那样发展，这时我们更容易看清那些阻碍我们的各种因素。

And likewise, you know, let's say we put in that same work, but we have bad luck and something happens in our external environment that makes it so that things didn't go the way that we anticipated, that it's much easier for us to see what all of those other things that thwarted us were.

而当我们思考他人的经历时，可能看不到他们背后付出的所有努力和工作。

Whereas, when we're thinking about other people's experiences, we might not see all the behind the scenes effort and work that they put in.

我们也可能不了解那些导致问题发生的各种背景因素。

And we also might not be aware of all of the contextual factors that that went wrong.

因此，迈克尔提出的观点得到了数十年社会心理学研究的有力支持。

And so the idea that Michael is putting forward is really well supported by decades of social psychology research.

它还与朴素现实主义的概念相关，即我们认为自己看到的世界就是真实的样子。

It's also related to the idea of naive realism, which is that we see the world as it actually is.

我们认为自己拥有正确无误的客观现实感。

That we think that we have a sense of objective reality that's correct.

而那些与这种看法不一致的人，往往有各种各样的原因，导致他们无法如实地看待事物。

And that other people who deviate from that have, you know, all kinds of reasons why they're not able to see things as they actually are.

因此，想要达成共识就变得困难了。

So then trying to get on the same page is hard.

我还想谈谈，当我们提供反馈时，如果不关注情境因素，某种程度上我们并没有给予他人我们常常要求他们给予自己的同理心。

I also want to talk about how when we jump in sometimes with feedback without paying attention to the contextual factors, in some ways we're not extending the compassion to others that we often demand from them.

换句话说，当我批评伴侣把洗碗机装错了时，如果没有承认伴侣其实已经费心去装洗碗机了，也许他们已经很累了。

So in other words, when I criticize my partner for loading the dishwasher wrong, without acknowledging that my partner has actually taken the trouble to actually load the dishwasher, my partner might be tired.

而我只关注伴侣哪里做错了，却忽略了他们做得对的地方。

And and all I'm focusing on is what my partner is doing wrong as opposed to what my partner is doing right.

是的。

Yes.

这也引出了这一点：社会情境不仅发生在当下，也是我们彼此历史的产物，以及我对你的意图的想象。

And that also gets to this point that the social situation is not only unfolding in this exact moment, but is also a product of the history that we have together and of what I imagine your intentions to be.

当我们未能给予他人宽容或同理心时，也许是因为他们所有的努力或动机对我们来说并不明显，这时问题就会累积。

And when we get into a situation where we're not extending that grace or compassion to other people, maybe because all of the work or the motivations that they have aren't obvious to us, then things can compound.

对吧？

Right?

所以，当我和我的伴侣布雷特考虑结婚时，我们思考过我们的婚礼誓言应该是什么。

And so, you know, I'll share when my partner Brett and I were thinking about getting married, we thought about what our wedding vows should be.

首先，我们举办了一个派对，让朋友们提名他们认为我们该许下的誓言。

And first, we had a party where we had a wedding vow bracket, and we let friends nominate what they thought we should vow.

获胜的誓言是：我承诺像对待女王一样对待你，但像尊重总理一样尊重你。

The winning one was, I vow to treat you like a queen, but respect you like a prime minister.

我们决定，虽然这很有趣，但可能不适合作为我们未来生活的基础。

And we decided that, you know, although that's funny, it's probably not the formulation to be the foundation for the rest of our lives together.

我们许下的一条誓言是：我会假设你有良好的意图。

And one of the things that we did vow was that I will assume that you have good intentions.

另一方面，我们也明白，这需要彼此去赢得，对吧？

And also, on the other side, that basically, we'll earn it, right?

我们会始终努力在彼此的互动中怀有善意。

That we'll always try to come into interactions with good intentions for each other.

因此，拥有这样一种基本预期很重要：当某人做出看似无礼的行为时，对他们自己来说，这种行为是有道理的。

And so, having that kind of base expectation that if somebody's doing something where it seems like they're being a jerk, their behavior makes sense to them.

因此，努力理解他们为什么觉得自己的行为有道理至关重要，因为我们无法自动获得这种理解。

And so trying to understand why what they're doing makes sense to them is so important because we we don't have access to it automatically.

当我们回来时，谈谈如何减少我们的防御心理，并帮助他人也做到这一点。

When we come back, ideas on how we can reduce our defensiveness and help others do the same.

你正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的大脑》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

当别人给我们建设性的反馈时，我们常常本能地想：不可能。

When someone gives us constructive feedback, we often instinctively think, No way.

这不可能是真的。

That can't be true.

从心理上讲，拒绝批评比面对对自我认知的挑战要容易得多。

It's psychologically easier to reject criticism than to grapple with a challenge to our sense of self.

在宾夕法尼亚大学，心理学家艾米丽·福克斯研究防御心理及其应对方法。

At the University of Pennsylvania, psychologist Emily Fox studies the psychology of defensiveness and what we can do about it.

艾米丽，如果我们对自我的执着是导致防御心理的原因之一，那么你和其他研究者发现，如果我们想减少防御性，可能需要与自我保持一定距离。

Emily, if our attachment to the self is part of the reason we are defensive, you and others have found that we may need to get some distance from ourselves if we want to become less defensive.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by this?

如果我们的自我认知和价值感是紧密相连的，那么一种可能减少防御、更开放地接受新观点的方式，就是退后一步，意识到我们的自我价值并不一定取决于别人要我们改变的那件具体事情。

Well, if our sense of self and our sense of value are intertwined, then one of the ways that we can maybe be less defensive or more open to new ideas is by having a chance to zoom out and see that our self worth isn't necessarily tied up in the specific thing that somebody's asking us to change.

我们可以通过很多不同的方式获得这种心理上的距离。

And there are a lot of different ways that we can get that kind of psychological distance.

其中一种方法是反思对我们最重要的事情，心理学家称之为价值肯定——即真正触及那些对我们而言最重要、最核心的事物，从而让我们明白：无论我有没有停好车位，或者有没有按你的要求摆放洗碗机里的餐具，都不足以决定我是不是一个好人，因为这些事远不如那些更根本的价值重要。

So one of the ways we can do it is by reflecting on the things that matter the most to us, which psychologists call values affirmation, like really getting in touch with the things that are most important, most core to us, which then can offer the perspective that, you know, whether or not I backed into the parking space correctly or loaded the dishwasher the way that you wanted me to, doesn't actually determine whether I'm a good person or not, because it's not as fundamental as as these other kinds of things.

比如友谊、同情心或精神信仰。

Like, you know, friendship or compassion or spirituality.

另一方面，我们也可以更直接地做到这一点，就是退后一步，思考一个我们认为会对这种情况做出明智回应的人的视角。

On the other hand, we can also do it more directly by taking a step back and thinking about a perspective of somebody who we think would have a wise response to this situation.

所以，想象一位榜样，或者我们觉得能够以我们理想方式应对这一情境的其他人，这都能帮助我们跳出自我。

So thinking about a role model or another person who we think might be able to respond to the situation in a way that we ideally would like to, both kind of takes us outside of ourself.

还有非常出色的研究由梅根·迈耶和黛安娜·塔米尔完成，表明当我们进行这种对他人的反应进行心理模拟时，我们的大脑处理这一任务的方式实际上会让我们逐渐具备那些特质。

And then there's really fantastic research that Megan Meyer and Diana Tamir did that shows that when we do that mental simulation of somebody else's response to a situation, the way that our brains handle that task actually then make us take on some of those qualities.

它让我们某种程度上认同那位更睿智或更有耐心的人的特质。

It makes us sort of identify with the characteristics of that wiser or more patient person.

你能谈谈研究人员发现的其他一些在自我疏离方面非常有效的方法吗，Emily？比如，有时想象如果两年后的自己来看待当前的情境，会有什么感受，会有帮助。

Can you talk about some of the other techniques that researchers found are very effective when it comes to self distancing, Emily, including the idea that sometimes it's helpful to imagine how we might feel about the current situation if we were, for example, two years in the future.

是的。

Yes.

我们的大脑以类似的方式处理不同类型的心理距离，我认为这太了不起了。

So our brains handle different kinds of psychological distance in similar ways, which I think is incredible.

所以，想象自己在时间上远离当下，比如两年后的未来，或者在物理空间上远离当前所处的位置，甚至把自己看作一个不同的人或拥有不同的身份，所有这些都能创造心理上的距离。

So thinking about ourself somewhere far away in time, like two years in the future, somewhere physically removed, somewhere that's geographically distant from where we are, thinking about ourself as a different person or with different identities, all of those things can create psychological distance.

而采取旁观者视角，比如像墙上的苍蝇一样观察，可以帮助我们减少愤怒，降低攻击性想法或反应，避免激化冲突，或让自己表现出不想成为的样子。

And taking that perspective of a fly on the wall, for example, can help us feel less angry or reduce aggressive thoughts or reactions that might escalate the conflict or have us show up as, you know, not the way that we would want to be.

有趣的是，这一点在成年人和孩子身上都成立。

And this is true, interestingly, both in adults and in kids.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

我们收到了一位名叫苏的听众的来信，她本人是一位写作教授。

We heard from a listener named Sue who is herself a writing professor.

她在听了我们关于防御性反应的那期节目后，在课堂上经历了一件有趣的事。

She had an interesting experience in class after listening to our episode about defensiveness.

苏正在给一群研究生上课，我让她接着讲这个故事。

Sue was teaching a class of graduate students, and I let her pick up the story from there.

我注意到人群中有一位我以前的本科生，我认出了她。

I noticed in the crowd one of my former undergrads, and I recognized her.

她叫德西蕾。

Her name is Desiree.

我说：哦，德西蕾，你对这些概念一定很熟悉。

And I said, oh, Desiree, you'll be familiar with all these concepts that I'm talking about.

具体的名词，主动的动词。

Concrete nouns, active verbs.

我就不跟你们细讲语法课了。

I won't bore you with the grammar lesson.

然后她回应说：哦，是的。

And then she responded and said, oh, yeah.

我记得这些。

I remember those.

当然，你们总是东一榔头西一棒子。

And, of course, you're all over the place.

我记得你以前就是这样。

I remember that about you.

我当时就像被车灯照住的鹿一样愣住了，意识到自己一个挑战就是得对学生们有条理、循序渐进地教学。

And I stood kind of like a deer in the headlights and recognized one of my challenges and that is to be methodical and linear with my students.

但在现实生活中，我并不是这样的。

I am not that way in the world.

我习惯联想式思考。

I'm associative.

我总是东跳西跳。

I jump around.

我很有表演天赋。

I'm theatrical.

我特立独行。

I'm eccentric.

我相信你们早就看出来了。

I'm sure you can tell this already.

就在那一刻，善良的德西蕾点醒了我。

And in that moment, bless her heart, Desiree called me out.

但因为我那天早上或前一天听了《隐性大脑》这个节目，我得以在当下重新诠释这段经历，并将其转化为一个教学契机。

But because I had listened to Hidden Brain that morning or the day before, I had an opportunity in real time to reframe that experience and use it as a teachable moment.

于是我停下了课程，当时我面对德西蕾和全班同学说：你知道吗，德西蕾，我本质上是想有条理的，但实际并不太有条理，不过我会努力，而你现在给了我重新尝试的机会。

So I stopped the class, and what I got to do in this moment with Desiree and in front of this class and said, you know, Desiree, I am aspirationally organized, not actually organized, but I try, and now you've given me a chance to try again.

就在那一刻，我不但向教室里的学生们展现出了真实的一面，还赢得了大家的大笑，更重要的是，我真正地深吸了一口气，然后变得更加有条理。

And in that moment, not only did I humanize myself to these people in the classroom, and not only did I get a big laugh, but I really did get to take a breath and then be a little more methodical.

于是我稍微停顿了一下，说：好吧。

And I sort of did a, okay.

我们从头再来。

Let's take it from the top.

这就是我想说的。

Here's what I'm talking about.

这对我来说真是一个美好的时刻。

It was such a wonderful moment for me.

艾米丽，苏在这里做得对在哪里？

Emily, what does Sue do right here?

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love this story so much.

而且，Sue，我真的很高兴你能这样做，因为对学生来说，看到一个愿意停顿一下、承认每个人都有成长空间的人，这是一份多么宝贵的礼物，而学生们也给出了非常积极的回应——他们笑了，而且站在了她这边。

And, Sue, I'm just so delighted that you are able to do that because what a gift for the students to see that model of somebody who takes a beat and recognizes that everybody has areas to grow and then gets this really positive response, right, that the students laugh, and they're with her.

现在，Sue和她的学生们已经站在了同一阵线上。

So now Sue and her students are all on the same team.

但我真的很欣赏她对这种反馈持开放态度。

But I really love that she was open to that feedback.

我注意到的一点是，在听到学生的批评后，Sue停顿了一下。

One thing I noticed is that after she heard the criticism from her student, Sue took a moment to pause.

她没有立刻做出反应。

She didn't react right away.

她花了一点时间去思考自己听到的内容和内心的感受。

She took a beat to consider what she was hearing and what she was feeling.

某种程度上，这正呼应了你刚才说的，Emily，即避免过度防御的关键之一，就是不要立即反应。

And in some ways, that echoes what you were saying a moment ago, Emily, which is that one key to not getting too defensive is to not react immediately.

是的。

Yes.

我认为，苏通过暂停片刻来尊重自己的感受，为自己和学生都做了一件大事。

I think Sue did herself and her students a big service by taking that moment to honor what she was feeling.

因为，当然，听到自己可能做得不够好的地方，感觉总是很难受。

Because, of course, it feels hard to hear the things that we might be able to do better at.

在那一刻，我完全理解那种感到防御的心理。

And in the moment, I completely relate to the idea that we would have that that moment of feeling defensive.

而她随后还能退后一步，从更宏观的背景中去思考这个问题。

And she also then was able to take a step back and think about think about it in context.

对吧？

Right?

而且，德西蕾愿意给出这样的反馈，我认为这充分体现了苏的优秀。

And also, the idea that Desiree was willing to give that feedback, I think, speaks highly of Sue.

因为学生处于一种相对脆弱的位置。

Because students are in a somewhat vulnerable position.