恶心！关于厌恶的科学

对吧？

Right?

所以，我们可能想要为自己的观点辩护，即某人是否应该参与某些令人厌恶的行为。

So it may be that we wanna defend our opinions about whether or not somebody should be engaged in some disgusting acts.

但在一个刑事司法系统中，假设你并不知道被告是否有罪。

But in in a criminal system where imagine that there is a defendant who you do not know if they are guilty or not guilty.

现在我让你做出这个判断。

And now I'm asking you to make that judgment.

这个人有罪还是无罪？

Is this person guilty or not?

而我向你展示或描述了一起相当令人厌恶的犯罪行为。

And I show you or describe to you a fairly disgusting criminal act.

事实证明，这种厌恶情绪往往会使人倾向于认定某人有罪。

Turns out that that disgust tends to bias people in favor of finding somebody guilty.

换句话说，犯罪细节令人厌恶这一事实，会让我倾向于认为被指控的人很可能有罪。

In other words, the fact that the details of the crime were disgusting predisposes me to think that the person being accused of the crime probably is guilty.

没错。

That's right.

已经做过类似的研究，例如在模拟陪审团研究中，这是一种常用于研究心理学与法律的常用方法。

There have been studies done just like this where, for instance, they will show these these are in mock jury studies or a common methodology used to study the psychology and the law.

你把人们召集进来，让他们感觉自己像是审判中的陪审员。

You bring people in and you present you make it as if they were jurors in a trial.

一些人会看到黑白图像，比如一个血腥的犯罪现场、谋杀现场。

And some of the people are given images that are in black and white of, say, a grizzly crime scene, a murder scene.

另一些人则看到的是同样的图像。

And some people are given those same images.

换句话说，所有信息都是一样的，都是同一个犯罪现场。

In other words, the information is all the same, the same crime scene.

但有些人看到的是非常生动的彩色图像。

But some people receive it in very vivid color.

这些彩色图像看起来要恶心得多。

Those color images are much more disgusting to look at.

结果发现，仅仅通过改变他们看到的图像是否为彩色或黑白，就会增加他们的厌恶感，从而使他们更有可能判定被告有罪。

And it turns out that just manipulating whether or not they see the images in color or in black and white increases their disgust, and this leads them to be, more likely to find the defendant guilty.

在民事案件中，他们更有可能判给更多的赔偿。

And in civil cases, more likely to actually, give more damages.

如果这还不是厌恶情绪带来的非理性影响，那我真不知道什么才是了。

And if that's not, an irrational effect of disgust, I don't quite know what is.

我们回来后，谈谈厌恶感的政治，它是如何被用来影响你的，以及你可以怎么做。

When we come back, the politics of disgust, how it's being used to influence you, and what you can do about it.

你正在收听《隐性思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐性思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

听任何一场政治辩论，都会发现某些词语反复出现：可鄙的、令人作呕的、令人反感的。

Listen to any political debate and certain words seem to repeat themselves: deplorable, disgusting, sickening.

这些不仅仅是侮辱。

These aren't just insults.

它们指向更深层的东西。

They point to something deeper.

它们指向了强大的厌恶心理。

They point to the powerful psychology of disgust.

厌恶不仅仅关乎腐烂的食物、难闻的气味和溃烂的伤口。

Disgust is not only about rotten food, bad smells and festering wounds.

它在我们如何看待自己的价值观中扮演着角色。

It plays a role in how we think about our values.

它塑造了我们信任谁、害怕谁，以及我们认为什么是错误的。

It shapes whom we trust, whom we fear, and what we think is wrong.

如果你有关于厌恶感及其如何塑造你生活的个人故事，或者对本期节目的后续问题或评论，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you have a personal story about disgust and how it has shaped your life or a follow-up question or comment about today's episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

然后将文件发送到 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Then email the file to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请写：Disgust。

Use the subject line Disgust.

在康奈尔大学，心理学家大卫·皮扎罗研究厌恶与伦理的交集。

At Cornell University, psychologist David Pizarro studies the intersection of disgust and ethics.

他探索了我们对厌恶的敏感度如何影响道德判断，以及这种敏感度如何被用来塑造政治观点。

He explores how our sensitivity to disgust influences our moral judgments and how that can be manipulated to shape our political views.

大卫，你说厌恶长期以来被用于推动政治宣传。

David, you say that there's a long history of disgust being used to promote political propaganda.

能告诉我，在二战爆发前和大屠杀期间，它是如何被利用的吗？

Tell me how it was used in the run up to World War two and during the Holocaust?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，对于我们的一些听众来说，纳粹党使用令人反感的图像来让人们对犹太人及其他社会群体产生特定情绪，这可能并不意外。

So it may come as no surprise to some of our listeners that disgusting imagery was used by the Nazi party to make people feel a certain way about Jews among other social groups.

但将犹太人以刻板印象描绘为肮脏、污秽、油腻或黏腻，无论是通过语言还是艺术形式，都是一种非常普遍且有力的手段。

But it was a very common and powerful tactic to depict verbally or artistically depict a stereotypical Jew as dirty or filthy or or greasy or slimy.

这种手法被运用得非常有效。

And this was used to to great effect.

但这种语言和图像在纳粹德国之前就已经存在了。

This but it it's language and imagery that predates Nazi Germany as well.

哲学家玛莎·努斯鲍姆指出，在大量有记载的历史中，各种群体——包括女性、同性恋者、犹太人——常被描述为某种意义上的令人厌恶，具有某种污秽、腐烂或异味，让人反感。

So the the philosopher Martha Nussbaum has pointed out that throughout lots and lots of recorded history, various groups, including women, gay people, Jews, are described as being disgusting in some way, as having some foulness or decay or smell, something to put us off.

这种作为一种修辞策略的做法，似乎非常有效。

And that this is a as a rhetorical strategy, one that seems to work quite well.

当然，正如我们所见，厌恶在某种程度上会促使我们想要与令人厌恶的事物保持距离。

And, of course, as we've seen, disgust in some ways can prompt us to want to get some distance between us and the disgusting thing.

但当你将厌恶情绪应用于社会群体、个人或社区时，也可能导致排斥。

But when you're applying disgust now to social groups, to individuals, to communities, that can also lead to ostracism.

这会导致偏见。

It can lead to prejudice.

没错。

That's right.

在这里，我认为比较和对比两种情绪很有用：一种是愤怒，另一种是厌恶。

And here, I think it's useful to compare and contrast two emotions, one of anger and one of disgust.

这两种情绪在政治上都能被很好地利用。

Now both of those can be used to great effect politically.

对吧？

Right?

如果我对某个群体感到愤怒，我可能会去与之对抗并伤害他们。

If I'm angry at a group, I might engage and and harm them, hurt them.

但它们有很大不同，正如你刚才提到的，其中一种会促使人们回避。

But they're quite different in that one of them, as you just said, discussed, motivates avoidance.

所以，如果我遇到令人作呕的东西，我不想多想它。

So if I'm presented with something gross, I don't wanna think about it.

我想避开它。

I wanna avoid it.

我不想看到它。

I don't wanna see it.

另一方面，愤怒是心理学家常称之为趋近情绪的情绪。

Anger, on the other hand, is what psychologists often refer to as an approach emotion.

愤怒会让你想要与目标互动。

Anger makes you want to engage with the target.

愤怒会让你想要采取行动，以改变现状，比如寻求报复或实现正义。

Anger makes you want to do something in order to to change what the state of affairs, to get revenge, for instance, or to find justice.

而厌恶则可能让你选择视而不见。

Whereas disgust can lead you just to turn a blind eye.

所以，如果厌恶塑造了我们对他人的判断，就不难理解这为何会成为一种极具威力的政治工具。

So if discussed shapes our judgments of others, it's easy to see how this can be a very potent political weapon.

大卫，你能根据人们对厌恶的敏感度来预测他们的政治倾向吗？

Can you predict people's political leanings, David, based on their sensitivity to disgust?

我们可以。

We can.

事实上，这是我们最早发现的结果之一，正是这个发现让我们开始对厌恶感与社会判断之间的关系产生兴趣。

In fact, this is one of the first findings that we had that got us interested in studying disgust and social judgment in general.

我们当时正在研究这种对厌恶感的个体差异。

We were studying this individual difference in discuss sensitivity.

在我们通常在研究中包含的标准人口统计问题列表中，我们总会有关于政治倾向的问题。

And one of the things that we kept finding was in the standard list of demographic questions that we usually included in such studies, we would always have questions about political orientation.

我们一再发现，一个人越容易感到厌恶，他就越有可能报告自己是政治保守派。

And what we found over and over again was that the more easily disgusted somebody said they were, the more likely they were to report being politically conservative.

不过，我也可以反过来这么说。

Now I could say that just as easily the other way around.

也就是说，一个人越不容易感到厌恶，他就越有可能说自己是政治自由派。

That is the less easily disgusted someone is, the more likely they are to say that they're politically liberal.

对吧？

Right?

因为这两点都是真的，我不希望暗示其中一个是正确的关系，而另一个不是。

Because both of those things are true, and I don't wanna imply that one is the correct relationship and one is not.

我在想，这是否可能与另一个发现有关，即人们的威胁感知能力也会影响他们的政治观点？

I'm wondering, is it possible that this is related or sits alongside the finding that people's sense of threat perception also shapes their political views?

而且，你同样可以论证，拥有较高的威胁感知能力是好的。

And, again, you you can argue that it's good to have a high sense of threat perception.

你也可以论证，拥有较低的威胁感知能力是好的。

You can argue it's good to have a low sense of threat perception.

但已有研究表明，更容易感到威胁、恐惧感更强的人也更可能持保守立场，而威胁感知较低的人则更倾向于自由派立场。

But there have been studies that have indicated that people who are more easily threatened, who feel a greater sense of fear, are also more likely to be conservative, and people who have a lower sense of threat perception tend to be on the more liberal end of the spectrum.

我认为这完全正确，这也是理解这个问题的正确方式。

I think that's exactly right, and I think that's the right way to think about it.

当你研究厌恶情绪与政治倾向之间的关系时，你可能会问：这种厌恶情绪具体能很好地预测政治倾向的哪些方面？

When you, look at the research on this relationship between disgust and political orientation, you might ask, well, what aspects of political orientation specifically does this disgust predict well?

而它最相关的似乎是所谓的传统主义。

And what it looks like it's most associated with is what we might call traditionalism.

对吧？

Right?

这种观点认为，旧的方式就是好的方式，我们应该避免任何过于新颖和花哨的东西，因为现状已经把我们带到了今天的位置。

The the view that the old ways are the good ways and that we we should avoid anything too new and too fancy because status quo has gotten us to where we are.

所以，我们不要抛弃它。

So let's not abandon that.

而且，这在概念上——即使不是在心理上——似乎与这种对威胁的普遍厌恶密切相关。

And it seems as if that is very, conceptually, if not psychologically related to this general aversion to threat.

毕竟，新事物可能是潜在的威胁。

Because after all, novel things are potential threats.

而且，正如你所指出的，这并不一定是在对事物做出价值判断，因为事实上，新事物可能是美妙的。

And again, this is not necessarily, as you point out, making a value judgment about things because in fact, novel things can be wonderful.

它们可以带你走向新的牧场或新的机会，但也可能带你走向危险和威胁。

They can lead you to new pastures or new opportunities, but they can also lead you to danger and and to threat.

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为，稍作反思就会发现，这两种倾向——追求新事物和对新事物保持警惕——都非常重要。

And and I think just a moment's reflection shows that both of those, orientations that of pursuing the novel and that of being wary of the novel are very important to have.

而其中哪一种会成功，完全取决于你所处的环境。

And whether one of them will be successful is completely dependent upon what environment you happen to be in.

你实际上已经测试过厌恶感在说服中的有效性。

You've actually tested the effectiveness of disgust as a tool in persuasion.

在一项研究中，你们通过改变房间的气味来影响了人们的观点？

And in one study, you were able to manipulate people's views by changing the smell in a room?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

因此，引发厌恶感最强大且最简单的方法之一就是利用气味。

So one of the most powerful easy ways of inducing disgust is through the use of a smell.

气味很好，因为我不必给人们讲一个故事。

A smell is nice because I don't have to tell people a story.

我可以展示图片，但这些图片通常包含一些信息。

I can show images, but those images usually contain some information.

但气味是一种强大而直接的途径，常常能引发厌恶感。

But a smell is a powerful direct path to feeling disgust often.

我们发现，当人们在填写包含对各种社会群体（包括同性恋男性和女同性恋女性）态度的问卷时，如果他们在气味难闻的房间里完成问卷，他们对这些社会群体的评价会更加负面。

And what we found was that when we gave people a set of questionnaires that included among them questions about how individuals felt about various social groups, including gay men and lesbian women, when those individuals were completing those questionnaires in a room that smelled bad, they were more negative in their evaluations of those social groups.

你进行了另一项研究，提醒人们注意个人卫生的重要性。

You ran another study where you reminded people about the importance of physical cleanliness.

这样做产生了什么效果？

What was the effect of doing this?

这项研究我认为很好地体现了我们所讨论的原则。

This study, I think, shows the principle of what we've been talking about well.

因为在您提到的这项研究中，我们提醒人们应该洗手以保持清洁。

Because in this study that you just referred to, we reminded people that they should wash their hands to keep clean.

但这并不是对厌恶感的操控。

Now this wasn't a manipulation of disgust.

对吧？

Right?

我刚才提到的其他事情，比如难闻的气味或测量人们体验厌恶的倾向，这些显然是厌恶。

These other things that I've been talking about, like a foul odor or measuring people's tendency to experience disgust, those are clearly disgust.

但我们感兴趣的是这个更广泛的理论：厌恶可能在做什么，它可能增强了你对疾病、病原体的威胁感，即你周围世界中这种特定的威胁。

But we were interested in this broader theory about what discussed might be doing, that it might be increasing your feelings of threat about disease, about pathogens, that that specific kind of threat in the world around you.

我们想到的另一种方式是提醒人们世界上存在疾病。

And one way we thought you might also get this is by reminding people that there's disease in the world.

因此，这项研究中，我们告诉人们：嘿，这是在新冠之前很多年，当时人们害怕的是猪流感。

And so this was a study where we told people, hey, this was a time many years ago before COVID when the swine flu was was the thing that people were afraid of.

所以，仅仅提醒人们洗手，似乎就让他们在政治上报告的保守倾向至少在短期内有所上升。

So simply reminding people to wash their hands seemed to make them actually at least temporarily ramp up how conservative politically they reported being.

让我们谈谈这在现实政治中是如何体现的。

Let's talk about how this plays out in the actual world of politics.

我们已经看到一些例子，说明厌恶如何被用于宣传。

We've seen some examples of how disgust can be used in propaganda.

但我很好奇，你在当今世界各地的政治辩论中是否看到厌恶情绪在发挥作用，大卫？

But I'm curious, do you see disgust at work in current political debates around the world, David?

这很难不注意到。

It's hard not to.

我的意思是，也许问题的一部分在于，每当有人在政治语境中评论某人的恶心时，这些内容都会传到我这里。

I mean, so may maybe part of the problem is that whenever somebody makes a remark about the disgustingness of somebody else in a political context that gets sent to me.

但我似乎经常听到这类言论。

But I seem to hear it a lot.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们现在的总统非常热衷于使用令人反感的意象，而且他在这一点上非常精明。

I seem to hear I I think our current president is quite fond of the disgusting imagery, and I I I think he's quite savvy in this way.

但每当涉及到外部群体的讨论，比如移民问题时，我常常发现其中充斥着一种语言，它既唤起人们对疾病威胁的恐惧，也唤起一种因为对方‘很恶心’而产生的厌恶感。

But whenever there is a discussion of out groups, whenever there is a discussion of, say, immigration, I find that there's often this language that appeals to both the threat, the physical fear that people might have, but also to the to perhaps this threat is also from the fact that they're kind of gross.

2015年，保守派记者梅根·凯利主持了唐纳德·特朗普与希拉里·克林顿之间的一场总统辩论。

In 2015, the conservative journalist, Megyn Kelly, moderated one of the presidential debates between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

唐纳德·特朗普不喜欢主持人提出的问题。

Donald Trump didn't like the questions the moderator was asking.

他是这样后来描述梅根·凯利的。

Here's how he later described Megyn Kelly.

她一出来就开始问我各种荒谬的问题。

She gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions.

你能看到她的眼睛在流血，她身上各处都在流血。

And, know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever.

大卫，也许唐纳德·特朗普只是说错了话，但他并没有停下来修正或更正这个言论。

Now it's possible that Donald Trump was merely misspeaking, David, but he didn't stop to revise or correct that remark.

一些评论员将其解读为对月经的暗示，试图以某种方式将他的对话者描绘成令人厌恶的人。

And some commentators took it to be a reference to menstruation and an attempt in some ways to paint his interlocutor as disgusting.

是的。

Yeah.

如果他真是说错了，我认为他明显是在强化这个说法，因为我也是这么理解的。

If it was if if he misspoke, I think it was clear that he sort of doubled down on it, because I read it in in the same way.

而且，我再强调一下哲学家玛莎·努斯鲍姆，她是最早指出厌恶情绪与各种群体相关联的人之一，尤其是女性。

And, again, I'll just point back to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, who was one one of the first people I read to point out that the emotion of disgust has been associated with various groups, but women in particular.

对于男性来说，月经尤其容易引发厌恶感。

And menstruation, especially for men, is something that it's not difficult to elicit disgust.

你可以找到无数例子，从最早的文字记载开始，就描述了女性在经期时所受到的对待。

You can find you can find countless examples dating back to the earliest written word of how women are treated while they are, menstruating.

因此，这在某种程度上，不幸地成了像唐纳德·特朗普这样的人唾手可得的素材。

And so this this was, in some ways, unfortunately, low hanging fruit for somebody like Donald Trump.

所以，再稍微深入一下这个观点。

So stay with this idea for just a second more.

我们之前在讨论同性关系时也提到过，因为异性关系常常具有与同性关系相似的生物学特征。

We discussed this a little bit in the context of same sex relationships because, of opposite sex relationships often have some of the same biological characteristics as same sex relationships.

男女之间也是如此。

And the same is true for men and women.

我的意思是，男性也有身体。

Mean, men have bodies.

他们也有生理特征。

They have biologies.

你可以说，男性所做的一些事情或遭遇的一些情况也可能令人反感。

You could argue some things that men do or happen that happen to men can be disgusting.

为什么月经会被视为一种许多男性生理功能并未被如此看待的令人厌恶之事？

Why is it that menstruation has come to be seen as disgusting in a way that many male bodily functions have not?

嗯，你问了一个非常重要的问题。

Well, there you're asking a very important question.

我认为我可能并不是讨论这个问题最合适的人选。

And I believe that I'm probably not the most qualified to speak on this.

但我想说的是，任何这类讨论都会受到我们当前所处社会和权力结构的影响。

But what I can say is that any of this discussion will always be colored by the society, the power structures that we currently inhabit.

而且，往往是男性掌握着话语权，专门描述女性的生理功能，并让我们感到厌恶。

And the fact that men might be the ones in power to specifically describe the bodily functions of women and make us feel disgust

是的。

Yeah.

以其他男性为目标受众

Targeting other men as the audience

是的

Yeah.

这可能与此有关。

Probably has something to do with it.

不过，戴维，你提出的观点确实引人注目：如果我们回顾历史，纳粹认为犹太人是令人厌恶的。

It it is striking though the point that you're making, David, which is if we look down history, you know, the the Nazis found the Jews disgusting.

你知道，印度的上层种姓人群会认为低种姓人群令人厌恶。

You know, upper caste people in India can find lower caste people disgusting.

你知道，男性也会认为女性令人厌恶。

You know, men can find women disgusting.

这绝非偶然：往往是占多数或掌握权力的群体，将厌恶感强加给少数群体或无权群体。

And it's no accident that it's the group that's often in the majority or the group that's in power that ascribes, you know, aspects of disgust to the group that's in the minority or the group that doesn't have power.

没错，尚卡尔。

That's right, Shankar.

正如你指出的，即使在谈论种姓制度时，但在世界各个地区，权力较低的人通常不得不从事那些更令人厌恶的工作。

And as you point out, I mean, even in in talking about, say, the caste system, but but throughout various parts of the world, the people who might be lower in power are usually the ones who have to do the more disgusting jobs.

所以你实际上是在双重强化这种效应。

So you're getting sort of a doubling of the effect.

大卫，让我印象深刻的一点是，当有人指责你令人厌恶时，你几乎无法回应。

One thing that jumps out at me, David, is that when someone accuses you of being disgusting, it's almost impossible to respond to that.

我的意思是，你可以回应关于不当行为、腐败或无能的指控。

I mean, can respond to an accusation about malfeasance or corruption or incompetence.

你可以提供证据来证明，不，不，那不是真的。

And you can point to evidence that basically says, no, no, no, that's not true.

但厌恶感有一种方式，以某种力量说服人们，以至于你几乎无法对此进行反驳，因为正如我们刚才看到的，面对这种情绪时，理性论证在某种程度上显得无能为力。

But disgust has this way of, in some ways, persuading people so powerfully that you can't really mount an argument against it because as we've just seen, the argument in some ways is sort of helpless in the face of the emotion.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a very good point.

我认为这与你在罗斯森的研究中提到的负面力量有关，你知道，你得往蟑螂身上倒多少汤才能让它变干净？

And I think part of it has to do with this power of negativity that you referred to in Rawson's work where, you know, how how how much soup can you pour on a cockroach to make the cockroach clean?

这根本不可能发生。

It's not gonna happen.

部分原因在于，这些事情中有些确实是真实的。

Part of it is that some of these things just are true.

我们每个人都是肮脏的。

We are all disgusting.

我们都是有身体的生物。

We are we are all bodies.

我们都因身为拥有这些身体的人类而沾染了污秽。

We are all tainted by the fact that we are humans in these bodies.

因此，我们几乎无法通过辩论来摆脱这一点。

And so there's very little we can do to argue our way out of that.

而且它确实似乎常常绕过我们的理性能力，我们的理性能力根本无法真正扭转它。

And it really does seem like because it bypasses our rational faculties often, there's nothing our rational faculties can really do to undo it.

如果有人对我讲了什么恶心的事，你下次见到我时，可能永远都无法摆脱这个念头。

If you if somebody said something gross about me, you may never be able to shake that thought from your head when you meet with me.

所以我们能做的最好的事，或许是意识到这种事可能会发生？

And so the best we can do is perhaps try to just be be aware that this might happen?

当我们回来时，我们应该在什么时候抵制自己的厌恶感，以及如何做到这一点。

When we come back, when we should push back against our feelings of disgust and how to do that.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

厌恶被认为是一种进化出来保护我们免受伤害的情绪。

Disgust is thought to be an emotion that evolved to protect us from harm.

但和所有情绪一样，它可能既具有误导性，又具有帮助性。

But like all emotions, it can be just as misleading as it is helpful.

在康奈尔大学，心理学家大卫·皮扎罗研究了厌恶如何影响我们的判断，以及其它情绪如何有时能压制它的影响。

At Cornell University, psychologist David Pizarro explores how disgust can cloud our judgment and how other emotions can sometimes override its influence.

在政治和公共生活中运用厌恶情绪时，我们该如何应对？

When it comes to the deployment of disgust in politics and public life, how should we deal with it?

我们有没有办法让自己对厌恶产生免疫力？

Are there ways that we can inoculate ourselves against disgust?

我们是否应该这样做？

Should we be doing that?

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个棘手的问题，但我认为非常重要。

It's a tricky question, but I think a very a very important one.

因此，有些人认为我们应该更多地倾听我们的厌恶反应。

So some have argued that we should listen to our discussed response more.

生物伦理学家莱昂·卡斯曾著名地主张，厌恶中蕴含着智慧。

So the bioethicist Leon Cass famously argued that there was wisdom in repugnance.

他认为我们应该重视这种情绪，因为它具有信息价值。

And he believed that that we should pay attention because this emotion was informative.

它在向我们传达某些可能出错的信息。

It was telling us something that might be wrong.

如果我对你的行为感到恶心，也许你确实做了一件错误的事。

If I'm grossed out by the thing that you do, maybe it is wrong that you do that thing.

但像马丁·乌斯鲍姆这样的人则说：不。

Others like Martin Usbaum have said, no.

这种思维方式实际上非常危险，因为你几乎可以仅凭指出某事物令人厌恶，就断言任何人或任何事都是错的或坏的。

This in fact is quite a dangerous way of thinking about things because you could pretty much argue that anybody or anything is wrong or bad by pointing out something disgusting.

我个人认为，研究这个话题给我带来的价值之一是，至少当我被厌恶情绪影响而认为某件事或某个人是错的时，我会更加反思，因为我可以举个例子。

I do think personally that one of the things that has brought value to me in studying this topic is that at the very least, if I am being influenced by disgust to believe that a certain thing or person is wrong, I wanna be a bit more reflective about it because I'll give you an example.

我有一位朋友是哲学家，他曾对我说：那如果有人对幼童实施性虐待呢？

So I have a a friend who's a philosopher who has said to me, well, what about somebody who who engages in the sexual abuse of young children?

这是一件令人作呕的事情。

That's a disgusting thing.

你是要告诉我，我应该出于某种原因抑制我的厌恶感吗？

Are you telling me that I should, for some reason, turn off my disgust?

我不应该放大它吗？

Shouldn't I amplify it?

这难道不应该促使我去将这个人绳之以法吗？

Shouldn't this motivate me to to bring that person to justice?

对此，我想我的回应是，如果仅仅是厌恶感让你想要将这个人绳之以法，那我不确定你这样做是对的。

To which, I guess, my response would be, if disgust is the only thing making you wanna bring this person to justice, then I'm not sure you're doing it the right way.

对吧？

Right?

我认为还有其他理由可以判断一个人有错。

I think that there are there are other grounds for finding fault in people.

让我们回到陪审员身上。

Let's get back to the jurors.

我认为，有关事实本身应当引导你判断某人是否犯有罪行，而厌恶情绪很可能不应当在这一判断中发挥作用。

I think that there are facts of the matter that should lead you to to decide whether somebody is guilty or not of committing a crime and that the disgust probably shouldn't play a role in that judgment.

因此，我认为在做出对我们社会生活如此关键的判断时，还有其他更相关的信息。

And so so I think there's other information that's more relevant when we're making judgments that are so critical to to our social lives.

这其中一部分涉及我们如何投票决定男性是否可以与男性结婚。

Some some of this has to do with how we're gonna vote on whether men can marry other men.

对吧？

Right?

我们不应当仅仅被自己在想到性行为时可能产生的反感所引导。

We don't want to just be guided by whatever repulsion we might have when thinking about sexual acts.

大卫，我想知道，当你思考厌恶情绪在公共政策中的作用时，你自己的观点是如何演变的？

I'm wondering how your own views have evolved when it comes to questions of disgust in public policy, David.

作为一个在宗教氛围浓厚、不幸地还生活在一个相当恐同的社区中长大的人，年轻时——虽然我很羞于承认，但我觉得有必要坦白——我曾经非常恐同。

You know, as somebody who was raised quite religious and, unfortunately, in a in a community that was quite homophobic, As a younger man, and I I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I think it's important to admit, I was quite homophobic.

我相信男性不应该与男性结婚，也认为他们这样做是令人厌恶的。

I believed that men shouldn't marry men, And I also believed that it was disgusting that they did.

随着时间的推移，我的观点发生了变化。

And over time, my views changed.

但我可以告诉你，我的道德观念、理性观点在情感之前就已经转变了。

But I'll tell you, the views, the the moral views, my reasoned views evolved before my emotions did.

我只是，你知道，我不知道还能怎么表达，我只是因为其他原因逐渐确信某些事情是对是错。

And I just, you know, I don't know how else to say it other than I just became convinced for other reasons that some things were right or wrong.

而且我对过去在这件事上的看法感到反感。

And and I'm sort of repulsed by my previous views on this matter.

但我知道，很长一段时间里，我仍然让厌恶情绪在个人层面上对我的判断产生了比我愿意的更大影响。

But I do know that for a long time, I still let disgust influence my judgments at an individual level to a a greater degree than I wanted.

所以，如果我要描绘我自己的心路历程，我并不想让人觉得我是从一个被厌恶驱动的直觉性道德怪物，变成了一个完全理性的人。

So if I had to map out my own trajectory, it doesn't not to make it seem like I've moved from this intuitive moral monster driven by disgust to this perfectly rational being.

是的。

Right.

我希望我的意思没有被误解成那样。

I hope that I hope it doesn't come across that way.

但我一直努力寻找一种方式，来形成我所信赖的道德观点——这些观点是可靠的，能够说服他人，至少能让别人为自己辩护。

But what I have tried to do is to find ways to arrive at my moral views that that I can count on as being reliable, as being ones that can convince others, as being ones that at least somebody can defend themselves from.

这与你刚才说的相反，如果有人称你恶心，你能怎么办？

Unlike what you were saying about if somebody labels you gross, what are you gonna do?

面对这种情况，你又能说什么呢？

What what can you say to that?

在某些方面，对我们自己那些直觉上觉得正确的事情进行反思，实际上可能非常重要。

And in some ways, might actually be really important for us to police our own views or things that feel intuitively right to us.

比如，如果你是个自由派，当唐纳德·特朗普说俄亥俄州的移民在吃狗和猫时，你可能会感到震惊。

So if you're a liberal, for example, you might be horrified when Donald Trump says that, you know, immigrants in Ohio are eating dogs and cats.

你觉得这非常不公平。

You you think this is very unfair.

但当你看到那个把特朗普画成尿布宝宝的气球时，你可能会忍不住笑一笑。

But you might have, you know, a little chuckle when you see, you know, the balloon featuring Diaper Don, you know, and and showing Donald Trump in a diaper.

而这恰恰表明，我们很多人其实完全愿意在这件事上表里不一：当厌恶情绪损害我们的利益时，我们会不满；但当它有助于实现我们的目标时，我们却欣然接受。

And, again, what that really shows is that many of us are perfectly willing to, you know, be two faced about this, that we are upset about the deployment of disgust when it harms our interests, but we're perfectly willing to do it if it advances our goals.

当然。

Absolutely.

我很高兴你这么说，因为我认为作为自由派，很容易陷入一种误区，以为自己超脱于这种行为之外，但实际上我经常看到保守派在这么做。

And I'm glad that you're saying this because I think that it is quite easy to fall into the trap of as a personally, as a liberal of thinking that, oh, I am beyond this, but I see conservatives doing it all the time.

这完全不对。

That's just untrue.

对吧？

Right?

所以，总统是否穿尿布之类的事情根本不重要。

So it should not matter whether or not the president is wearing diapers or whatever.

对吧？

Right?

总统的个人生理功能，不应该影响我对他的政策的评判。

The the personal biological functions of the president should not matter when it comes to me judging his policies.

这很遗憾，但确实很容易陷入这种双重标准和虚伪之中。

And I it's unfortunate, but it is very easy to fall into this sort of double standard in this hypocrisy.

你和其他人注意到的一个有趣发现是，爱和欲望可以消除或缓解厌恶感。

One of the interesting findings that you and others have noticed is that love and lust can eliminate or ameliorate feelings of disgust.

为什么会这样，大卫？

How so, David?

这是关于厌恶感最引人入胜的方面之一。

This is one of the more fascinating things about disgust.

因为厌恶感源于对身体的反应，而身体是危险的，会释放各种可能让你生病的体液，所以很容易对他人产生厌恶。

So because disgust is about bodies and bodies are are dangerous things with various fluids emanating from them that might make you sick, it's very easy to feel disgust at other human beings.

但作为人类，我们有一些必须去做的事情。

But there are a few things that we have to do as a species.

第一，我们必须照顾我们的孩子。

One, we have to take care of our young.

对吧？

Right?

而这一点，正如任何父母或年长的兄弟姐妹都知道的那样，包括换尿布。

And that involves, as any parent knows or as any older sibling might know, changing diapers.

结果发现，当换的是自己的孩子的尿布时，要比换别人的尿布容易得多，即使尿布里的内容完全相同。

And it turns out that changing diapers is much easier when it's your child than when it's somebody else's, even though the contents of that diaper might be identical.

因此，爱似乎能够关闭那种厌恶感。

And so there is something about love that seems to turn off that disgust.

我认为，如果情况不是这样，那就行不通了。

And I think it wouldn't work if it weren't like that.

这不仅适用于我们的孩子，也适用于我们所爱的任何同住的人。

And not just for our children, but for anybody we live with whom we love.

这种厌恶感必须暂时被搁置一旁，是的。

That feeling of disgust just has to temporarily get set aside Yeah.

当我们与他们相处时。

When we're dealing with them.

而欲望是

And lust is

一个

a

是类似的情况。

similar thing.

对吧？

Right?

说实话，尚卡尔，如果我们不得不去思考性行为涉及的内容，我们很可能就会感到非常厌恶，根本不会去参与。

If honestly, Shankar, if we had to think about what sex involved, we would probably be disgusted quite a lot and never engage in it.

那样的话，对我们的物种来说可不是好事。

And that would be that would not be good for our species.

因此，其他研究者发现，性唤起可以暂时抑制厌恶感的影响。

So what other researchers have shown is sexual arousal can temporarily mute the effects of disgust.

如果你真的让人们对性产生唤起，他们就不太容易对某些事物感到恶心，即使那些事物和性毫无关系。

So if you actually get people sexually aroused, they're less likely to be grossed out by something, even if that thing has nothing to do with the sex.

同样地，如果他们先感到厌恶，就更难产生性唤起。

By the same token, though, if they're disgusted first, they're less likely to be able to become sexually aroused.

我在想，如此频繁地思考厌恶感，对你个人有什么影响吗，大卫？

I'm wondering how thinking so much about disgust affects you personally, David.

当你结束一天的工作，回到家，研究了这么多关于厌恶的新实验后，你还能吃得下饭吗？

When you come home at the end of the day after inventing all kinds of new studies about disgust, are you still able to keep your dinner down?

我确实得强迫自己不去想这些事。

I genuinely have to not think about this stuff.

我真的必须这样。

I really do.

要让我失去食欲其实并不难。

And it is not difficult to make me lose my appetite.

我认为我最初开始研究厌恶的原因之一是，在所有情绪中，它似乎最容易在他人身上引发。

One of the reasons I believe that I started studying discussed to begin with was, of all the emotions, it seems like it's a pretty easy one to elicit in others.

所以，要让人感到悲伤或愤怒其实挺难的。

So it's kind of hard to make people sad or angry.

你需要进行相当深入的操控，才能让人产生这些情绪。

You have to come up with some pretty pretty in-depth manipulations to make people feel these emotions.

对很多人来说，一张图片，甚至一个词，就足以让他们感到厌恶。

For a lot of people, one picture or or even one word is enough to make them disgusted.

从这一点来看，我认为直觉上，我一定觉得世界和我是一样的。

And I'm from that I I I think that intuitively, I must have thought the world is like me.

所以我很容易就能让别人感到厌恶。

So I will very easily disgust people.

举个具体的例子，我很多研究都是和我的长期合作者一起做的，他当时是康奈尔大学的研究生，叫约埃尔·因巴尔。在我们进行的许多关于厌恶的研究中，所有的刺激材料都是他挑选的。

The downside is, to give you a concrete example, for many of the studies that I ran with my collaborator, longtime collaborator on this, who was a graduate student here at Cornell, Yoel Imbar, for many of the studies that we ran on disgust, he had to pick all of the stimuli.

他负责设计整个实验。

He had to design the studies.

我根本没法处理这些事。

I couldn't handle doing it.

当我做报告时，我总是用那两张让我感到厌恶的图片，因为我已经对它们习以为常了。

When I would give talks, I would pick the same two images that were disgusting because I'd gotten used to those.

所以人是会习惯的。

So you can habituate.

你明白吗？

You know?

你可以对某个特定的图像产生习惯，但我无法摆脱我普遍的厌恶感。

You can get used to a specific image, but I could not get get rid of my general disgust.

所以你和你妻子最近在看你们女儿的在线相册。

So you and your wife were recently looking at an online photo album of your daughter.

你注意到了一些关于这些照片的事情，大卫。

And you noticed something about the the photos, David.

是什么事呢？

What was it?

我希望我女儿永远不要听到这个。

Well, I hope my daughter never hears this.

我最近买了一台更好的相机，比我一直用的手机相机好得多。

Well, I had recently gotten a a nicer camera, nicer than than the phone cameras that I've been used to.

我们出去拍照，不只是拍我们的孩子，也拍了其他人。

And we had been out taking pictures of not just our child, but others.

这是一次和一些学校朋友的小型外出活动。

This was a little outing with some friends from school.

为了说明一下，我女儿快三岁了。

For context, my daughter is almost three years old.

当我看到我女儿在寒冷中鼻涕挂着的照片时，我第一反应是真可爱。

And when I saw pictures of my daughter in the cold with snot dangling from her nose, my immediate thought was how cute.

我有一个多么可爱的女儿啊。

What a what a beautiful young daughter I have.

然后在同一组照片里，我看到了另一个孩子，客观地说，我承认，那是个非常非常漂亮的小孩。

And then I saw in that same role, I saw pictures of another child who objectively, I will admit, is a very, very beautiful young child.

他们鼻涕直往下滴，我却想吐。

They had snot dripping from their nose, and I wanted to gag.

我想，这位妈妈怎么没在拍照前帮这孩子擦擦鼻子呢？

I thought, how could this mother not have wiped this boy's nose before we took the pictures?

这算是一个不那么具有政治敏感性的虚伪例子，但我发现自己对此有非常强烈的感受。

Talk about you know, this is a much less politically charged instance of hypocrisy, but is one that I noticed in myself quite strongly.

你有关于厌恶的个人故事吗？

Do you have a personal story about Disgust?

或者你对这期节目有什么评论或问题吗？

Or do you have a comment or question about this episode?

如果你愿意与《隐性思维》的听众分享你的问题、评论或故事，请找一个非常安静的房间，用手机录一段语音备忘录。

If you'd be willing to share your question or comment or story with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.

两到三分钟就足够了。

Two or three minutes is plenty.

然后将文件发送至 feedback@hiddenbrain.org。

Then email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org.

邮件主题请写：Disgust。

Use the subject line Disgust.

当你想到所有那些令人恶心、令人反感的事情时，最可能立刻浮现在脑海的，可能是家中遭遇管道灾难的时刻。

When you think of all the yucky, disgusting things you have to do, the thing that might come most easily to mind are the times you had a plumbing disaster in your home.

马桶堵塞不仅仅是个问题。

A backed up toilet isn't just a problem.

这是一个令人作呕的问题。

It's a disgusting problem.

因此，如果我们必须在处理管道问题和关注美好事物之间做出选择，大多数人更倾向于后者，这也就不足为奇了。

Little wonder then that if we had to choose between attending to a plumbing problem and focusing on something beautiful, most of us would prefer the latter.

不久前，我与斯坦福大学的胡吉· Rao 讨论了他所说的‘诗意’与‘管道’之间的张力。

Some time ago, I spoke with Stanford's Huggy Rao about the tension between what he calls poetry and plumbing.

他认为，在我们的个人和职业生活中，许多人忽视了‘管道’，而专注于‘诗意’。

He argues that in both our personal and professional lives, many of us ignore the plumbing to focus on the poetry.

这在短期内或许有道理，但必然会带来长期的代价。

This may make short term sense, but it invariably has long term costs.

在我们播出与胡吉的最近一期节目后，许多听众来信分享了他们所面临的隐喻性‘管道’挑战。

After we aired a recent episode with Huggy, many of you wrote in with accounts of the metaphorical plumbing challenges you faced.

我们请胡吉再次回到节目中，回应这些提问。

We've asked Huggy to come back to the show to respond to those questions.

我们回来后，就拿起‘搋子’，打个比方，把你们的问题提给胡吉· Rao。

When we come back, we get out our plungers, metaphorically speaking, and run your questions by Huggy Rao.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是隐藏的思维。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

在搬进新家之前，你会先参观一下房子。

Before you move into a new home, you take a tour of the place.

你会想象家具会放在哪里。

You imagine where the furniture will go.

你会幻想在早餐角享受温馨的早晨，孩子们在客厅玩耍。

You daydream about cozy mornings in the breakfast nook, about kids playing in the living room.

你会设想与朋友举办的派对，也许还有你在花园里种的蔬菜。

You picture parties you'll host with friends, maybe the vegetables you'll grow in the garden.

而你从不考虑的是？

What you don't think about?

照顾房子所需的所有琐事。

All the chores needed to take care of the house.

擦拭窗台、清理浴室里的霉菌、刮掉烤箱底部烧焦的食物。

Dusting the windowsills, cleaning mold in the shower, scraping burnt food off the bottom of the oven.

这些还只是小问题。

And those are the small problems.

你还需要更换热水器、重新铺设屋顶，或许最让人头疼的是处理藏在墙壁深处的管道灾难。

You'll need to replace the water heater, retile the roof, and perhaps the worst headache, deal with plumbing disasters hidden deep behind the walls.

在斯坦福大学，胡吉·拉奥认为，房地产中的道理也同样适用于我们的生活。

At Stanford University, Huggy Rao argues that what is true of real estate is also true of our lives.

如果我们想要成功，就需要少想那些有趣的事情，多关注那些‘管道’问题。

If we want to be successful, we need to think less about the fun stuff and more about the plumbing.

胡吉·拉奥最近做客我们的节目，主题是《为什么光有梦想是不够的》。

Huggy Rao recently joined us for an episode titled why following your dreams isn't enough.

如果你错过了这场对话，可以在本播客的订阅源中找到。

If you missed that conversation, you can find it in this podcast feed.

今天，Huggy 加入我们，参与听众主导的环节——您的问题解答。

Today, Huggy joins us for our listener driven segment, Your Questions Answered.

Huggy Rao，欢迎再次来到《隐藏的思维》。

Huggy Rao, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢您，Shankar。

Thank you so very much, Shankar.

能再次参与这场对话，我感到非常荣幸。

It's a pleasure to rejoin the conversation.

Huggy，在我们最初的对话中，我们谈到了一种影响许多人和组织的张力，尤其是在他们试图启动新项目时。

Huggy, in our initial conversation, we talked about a tension that affects many people and organizations, particularly as they're trying to launch a new endeavor.

你将这种张力描述为诗歌与管道。

You described this tension as poetry versus plumbing.

你所说的这两个词是什么意思？

What do you mean by those terms?

这种充满诗意的隐喻——诗歌与管道，源自我杰出的斯坦福同事和导师詹姆斯·马奇。

This wonderfully evocative metaphor of poetry versus plumbing goes back to my wonderful Stanford colleague and mentor James March.

这意味着，诗歌关乎愿景、抱负和梦想的领域。

What it means is poetry has to do with the domain of vision, aspiration, dreams.

而管道则关乎执行与实施的核心细节。

Plumbing has to do with the guts of execution, the guts of implementation.

这就是其中的张力。

So that's the tension.

你有多重视愿景和吸引力？

How much do you emphasize vision and desirability?

你又有多重视可行性和执行？

How much do you emphasize feasibility and execution?

因此，能够同时做好这两者，具备这种双重能力，对任何领导者都至关重要。

And so being able to do both and that kind of ambidexterity is so central for any leader.

在我们之前的对话中，我们讨论了几个忽视‘管道’层面而失败的企业和组织。

In our previous conversation, we discussed several examples of businesses and organizations that fail to pay attention to the plumbing.

我们没提到的一个例子是Theranos公司。

One that we didn't talk about is the company Theranos.

你说这是个将诗意凌驾于实际执行之上的完美例子吗？

You call it a perfect example of an organization that prioritized poetry over plumbing?

是的。

Yes.

这是个非常引人入胜的例子，山卡尔，因为Theranos确实拥有一个极具吸引力的梦想或愿景。

That's a fascinating example, Shankar, because Theranos certainly had a compelling dream or a compelling vision, so to speak.

这个愿景是：如何仅用一滴指尖血样完成海量血液检测？

And the vision was, how do you use one small finger prick sample to do a galaxy of blood tests?

这是一个强大的愿景。

It's a powerful vision.

不幸的是，尽管这个愿景很强大，但它太过诱人。

Unfortunately, what happened was, while the vision was powerful, it was so seductive.

部分原因在于，创始人和员工被这个愿景所迷惑，忽视了实际执行的细节。

In part, what happened is the founders and the employees fell victim to that vision without paying attention to the plumbing.

我这么说的意思是，Theranos的假设是：我们能否借鉴硅谷软件公司开发软件的方式？

And here's kind of what I mean, because the premise of Theranos was, can we use how software is developed in software firms in Silicon Valley?

我们能用同样的开发模式来制造医疗设备吗？

Can we use the same development model for a medical device?

你可以想象这有多困难。

And you can imagine how difficult that is.

你知道，开发新软件时，显然会出现各种漏洞和未解决的问题。

You know, when you develop new software, obviously they're going to be bugs and things that you haven't addressed.

随着用户开始使用，我们会逐步改进它们。

And you progressively improve them as users begin to use them.

但你不能对FDA批准的设备这样做。

You can't do that with an FDA approved device.

我的意思是，它在上市前必须相当完善。

I mean, that needs to be pretty good before it sort of goes on.

所以，这本身就是一种类似‘管道’层面的紧张关系。

So that was like a plumbing kind of tension right there.

但另一点是，这种愿景在某种程度上让创始人营造了一种文化，几乎没有任何员工敢提出关于‘管道’问题的担忧。

But the other thing is this vision, in a sense, led the founders to create a kind of culture of like almost no employee could voice concerns about plumbing.

我的意思是，如果你这么做了，就会面临诉讼，比如。

I mean, if you did, you faced the lawsuit, for example.

你知道，他们的董事会由外交官和像乔治·舒尔茨这样的资深人士组成，这些人与医学诊断领域相去甚远。

And, you know, they had a board composed of diplomats and senior people like George Schultz and the others who were kind of far removed from the world of medical diagnostics.

你可以想象发生了什么。

And you can imagine what happened.

尽管存在管道问题，员工们却无法揭发。

Employees couldn't blow the whistle despite plumbing failures.

那种文化氛围就是‘假装直到成功’。

And it was kind of fake it till you make it was the kind of ethos that was there.

然后事情彻底崩盘，一切才被曝光出来。

And then the wheels came off, and that was when everything kinda got exposed.

而且，

And,

当然，被这种诗意蒙蔽的不只是组织内部的人。

of course, it wasn't just the people within the organization who got taken in by the poetry.

这家公司筹集了数亿美元的资金。

The company raised hundreds of millions of dollars.

它曾经一度估值数十亿美元。

It was valued at one point in the billions.

最终，公司领导人被判定犯有欺诈罪并被判入狱。

And eventually, the leaders were found guilty of fraud and sentenced to prison.

当然。

Absolutely.

这是这一切令人惋惜的崩塌。

And that was the sad unraveling of all of this.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，胡吉，我认为很多人有过这样的经历：为一家企业或组织提出了一个绝佳的构想，但却难以将其变为现实。

So, Huggy, I think many people have the experience of coming up with a great concept for a business or an organization, but then struggle to make that idea a reality.

我们听到了一位名叫莎拉的听众的故事，她想创办一个非营利性住所，让那些饱受孤独或悲伤困扰的人可以免费居住一两周，但她始终无法让这个计划启动。

We heard from a listener named Sarah who wants to create a nonprofit home where people grappling with loneliness or grief can stay a week or two for free, but she can't seem to get it going.

她在这儿。

Here she is.

我对如何筹资、如何维持运营有很多想法，但最大的障碍是实际的房屋。

I have a lot of ideas around how to fund it, how to sustain it, but my biggest hurdle is the actual house.

如果可以的话，我会用我自己的家，但这不现实。

I would use my own home if I could, but that's not realistic.

我希望在几年后退休时能实现这个目标。

I would love to be able to do this in a couple of years when I retire.

所以，是的，我主要的问题是：我该如何让这个宏大的想法真正启动起来？

And so, yeah, that's basically my big question is how do I how do I go about getting this big idea off the ground?

所以，胡吉，我认为很多人在从梦想转化为蓝图时都会遇到这样的问题。

So I think many people struggle with questions like this, Huggy, going from a dream to a blueprint.

你会对莎拉和类似处境的人说什么呢？

What would you say to Sarah and to people in similar situations?

莎拉，谢谢你提出这个问题。

So, Sarah, thank you for your question.

你的想法非常好。

Your idea is a wonderful idea.

它充满了慷慨。

It brims with generosity.

但听了你的话后，我有一些快速的反馈，莎拉。

But but after having listened to you, here are my quick reactions, Sarah.

在我看来，你目前正处于思考阶段，必须进入实施阶段。

It seems to me that part of what you're doing is you're in the deliberation phase, and you've gotta get to the implementation phase.

心理学家将此称为跨越卢比孔河，就像古罗马的凯撒跨越卢比孔河后，随后做了他所做的一切。

And psychologists refer to this as crossing the Rubicon, as Caesar crossed the Rubicon in ancient Rome and did all the things that he did subsequently.

那么，什么能帮助你跨越卢比孔河，这是关键问题。

So what would help you to cross the Rubicon is the key question.

听你这么说，我觉得你把房子当作了一个限制条件。

And listening to you, it seems to me you're focusing on the house as a constraint.

我有点在想，你是否已经为你的想法制作了一个原型？

What I'm kind of wondering is, might you actually have a prototype of your idea?

因为目前它还只存在于你的脑海中。

Because at the moment, it's in your head.

你能不能做一个小模型或原型，用这个原型去和那些能帮助你的人交流，不只是那些能留在原地的人，还包括那些可能帮助你实现这个愿景的其他人。

Can you develop like a little model or a prototype and use the prototype to talk to people who can help you, not just the people who can stay there, but the others who can potentially help you execute this vision.

而原型的意义就在于帮助你跨越那条卢比孔河。

And the point of the prototype is it's getting you to cross the Rubicon.

它实际上能引发你与他人的对话，并帮助你完善这些想法。

It's actually creating conversations about with people, and it'll help you refine things.

当你这么做时，你可能会意识到，也许你根本不需要一栋房子。

You might realize when you do that, maybe you don't need a house.

也许你只需要一个中间阶段的方案。

Maybe you might need something intermediate.

所以这里有各种可能性。

So there are all these possibilities.

因此，这就是我的建议，莎拉。

So that's what I'd recommend, Sarah.

许多听众来信说，他们很难识别出阻碍自己的问题。

So many listeners wrote in to say that they struggle to identify the problems that might be in their way.

这是来自一位名叫肯德拉的听众的问题。

Here's a question from a listener named Kendra.

如何才能加快识别阻碍愿景实现的因素的过程？

How can one expedite that process of identifying what is getting in the way of making a vision a reality?

在某种程度上，哈吉，这可能是上一个问题的延伸。

So in some ways, Huggy, this might be an extension of the previous question.

当你启动一项新事业时，你可能会意识到自己并不了解那些潜在的管道问题，以及需要克服的挑战。

As you're launching a new endeavor, you might be aware that there are plumbing problems that you are not aware of, that there are challenges that you need to, surmount.

当你第一次起步时，如何发现这些挑战呢？

How do you figure out what those challenges are when you're starting out for the first time?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我会先观察你所设想的产品或服务的潜在用户。

What I would do is I would actually begin by observing users of the potential product or service that you have in mind.

因为一旦你开始观察人们使用你的产品，你就能明白他们的需求，然后就能真正弄清楚该怎么做。

Because once you start observing people using your product, you know what the need is, and then you can actually figure out what to do.

让我给你一个简单的例子，Kendra，希望这能帮到你。

Let me give you a quick example, Kendra, in the hope it might help you.

在斯坦福，我们教高管们如何开发新产品。

At Stanford, one of the things we teach executives is, you know, how do you develop a new product?

我们告诉他们，答案不会坐在教室的椅子上，你得走出去观察用户。

And one of the things we tell them is, the answer isn't sitting on a chair in a classroom, you got to go out and observe users.

那么我们做了什么？

So what did we do?

我们带他们去了旧金山机场。

Took them to San Francisco Airport.

我们当时在和捷蓝航空合作。

We were working with JetBlue.

他们可以说是客户。

They were, if you will, quote the client.

我们要求人们观察旧金山机场的互动情况。

And we asked people to observe interactions at San Francisco Airport.

一个团队很快观察到一个沮丧的小孩在大哭，因为航空公司弄丢了他们的宠物。

One team quickly observed a distraught young child copiously crying because the airline had misplaced the pet.

这是另一家航空公司，不是捷蓝航空。

This was some other airline, not JetBlue.

他们带着这个发现回来，问：我们该如何帮助这个人？

And they came back with this and they said, how do we help this person?

很快，他们意识到，这是一个极端案例。

And very quickly, it became apparent to them, hey, this is an extreme case.

我们可以设计一个系统，将宠物丢失的概率降低到零，但这会非常非常昂贵。

We could design a system to reduce the probability of a pet being misplaced to zero, but it would be very, very expensive.

相反，他们思考的是：我们该如何服务携带宠物的客户？

Instead, what they did was, how can we serve customers with pets?

他们是怎么做的？

And what did they do?

他们实际上向捷蓝航空的董事长提出了这个想法，说捷蓝航空应该为乘客开设一个宠物舱。

They actually pitched the idea to the chairman of JetBlue and said, JetBlue ought to have a pet class for customers.

你知道，捷蓝航空的董事长说，我理解在经济舱里，这个宠物舱的标志是什么？

And, you know, the chairman of JetBlue said, I understand first in the economy, you know, what are the markers of this pet class?

人们回答说，你只需要在你面前的电视屏幕上设置一个频道即可。

And people said, well, all that you need is a channel on the TV screen in front of you.

这是一个名为‘宠物频道’的频道。

It's a channel called the pet channel.

你需要支付30美元。

You pay $30.

你可以看到货舱里的斯帕基，还能看到温度，以及是否有足够的水。

You can see Sparky in the hold, and you can see temperature, and you can see whether there's enough water there.

当人们想到宠物时，最关心的就是这两件事。

Those are the two things people worry about when they think about pets.

我仍然记得捷蓝航空的董事长拍着脑袋说：我们怎么就没想到这个呢？

I still recall the JetBlue chairman patting his head and saying, why didn't we think of this?

所以观察用户，思考是关键，因为这会为你带来假设、想法等等。

So observing users, think is the key because what that'll give you are hypotheses, ideas and so forth.

有时候，当我们试图启动一个新项目时，Huggy，我们实际上并不具备处理底层技术的技能。

Sometimes when we're trying to launch a new project, Huggy, we don't actually have the skills needed to attend to the plumbing.

听众Stanislav打来电话，询问从雇员转变为创业者的过程。

Listeners Stanislav called in with a question about the transition from being an employee to an entrepreneur.

有很多技能是启动一个想法所必需的，这些技能其实是基础前提。

There's a lot of skills that need to be learned that really are prerequisites to, having an idea get off the ground.

其中一些被严重低估或讨论不足的技能，就是建立人脉所需的时间有多长。

And some of the ones that are really undervalued or maybe under discussed is just how long it takes to, build your network.

你需要有在这个领域有经验的人，能够帮助你的人。

You need to have people who have experience in this, people who can help you.

另一个重要的技能是学习营销。

And then the other major skill would be to learn, marketing.

这是一个完整的行业和一套需要掌握的技能，只有在掌握这些之后，任何新业务、新项目或新想法才有可能真正蓬勃发展。

And that's a whole industry and a whole skill set that needs to be learned before, any new business, any new venture, any new idea has a chance to really flourish.

这些事情需要耗费极其漫长的时间和精力才能完成。

And these things take an extremely long amount of time and effort to accomplish.

很多时候，我觉得正是这些问题在初期扼杀了早期创业者，因为他们根本没有为此做好规划。

And a lot of times I feel like it's these exact issues that kill early entrepreneurs in the beginning simply because they don't plan for them.

他们只专注于产品，仍然相信‘你只要建好了，人们自然会来’这种过时的信条，而这显然是不够的。

They're focused on the product, and they're still believing this outdated axiom of if you build it, they will come, which is, you know, simply insufficient.

所以你的评论让我想到，我们常常不知道自己不知道什么，Huggy。

So comment makes me think of the idea that we often don't know what we don't know, Huggy.

在创办新公司或让一个想法落地的过程中，该如何应对这种问题呢？

How does one address this sort of problem in the context of launching a new company or getting an idea off the ground?

我认为，在很大程度上，斯坦尼斯拉夫所谈论的从打工者转变为创业者，需要动力、专业知识、人脉和见识。

I think in many ways, the part part of what Stanislav is talking about is going from a job to becoming an entrepreneur requires momentum and requires expertise, requires networks and requires knowledge.

而所有这些因素当然都是很有道理的。

And all of those things, of course, make a lot of sense.

话虽如此，根据我观察人们走这条道路的经验，大多数创业项目最初都是人们在从事正职工作时的副业。

Having said that, my own experience of people making this journey is most entrepreneurial ventures, they begin as side projects by people doing a real job.

你知道，要么那份正职工作很无聊，要么他们目前做的这份工作让他们意识到，他们所服务的公司的问题令人乏味。

You know, either the real job is uninteresting or alternatively, the real job that they're currently doing has surfaced the problem that the company they're working with uninteresting.

然后，你要做的就是把这件事推进下去。

And then, you know, part of what you do is take it forward.

所以，身处一家公司本身就让你有机会接触到一些人，哪怕不是你所需网络中的所有人。

So being in a company only already gives you access to some people, if not the, you know, all of the people you require in a network.

让我给你讲一个我们学生的例子，他确实经历过这样的过程。

Let me give you an example of a student of ours who actually went through that experience.

他是个非常聪明的学生，拥有生物技术背景。

He was a very smart student with a biotechnology background.

我们鼓励斯坦福的学生不仅在商学院上课，还要去大学的其他地方走走。

And we encourage students at Stanford not just to take courses in the business school, but to hang out in other parts of the university.

这位学生就去了医学院逛逛。

Well, this guy went and hung out in the medical school.

不久之后，他成功说服了一名医学院学生退学，和他一起创业。

And soon after, he actually persuaded a medical school student to actually drop out of medical school and join him in a venture.

他们提出的创业项目是什么？

And what's the venture they came up with?

一个非常简单的想法。

Super simple idea.

Augmedics。

Augmedics.

你去看医生时，如果有一个半小时的会面，医生会做什么？

You go to a doctor and what does the doctor do if you have a half an hour meeting?

他们花了十五分钟来更新数据。

They're spending fifteen minutes updating data.

换句话说，他们的背对着病人。

They have their back turned towards the patient, in other words.

Augmedics 是做什么的？

What does Augmedics do?

Augmedics 让医生摆脱记录更新的奴役。

Augmedics freeze the doctor from this tyranny of record updating.

相反，你可以与患者进行交流，只要患者同意，就会有一位位于班加罗尔的文书实时关注病历的记录，并经常提醒医生。

You instead can have a conversation with the patient and provided the patient gives consent, There's actually a scribe in Bangalore, who's actually paying attention to the notes that are being developed and often prompts the physician.

哦，患者提到这一点，但患者的祖父也曾患有类似的疾病。

Oh, the patient said this, but the patient's grandfather had a similar malady.

医生要在与患者的对话中调用所有这些知识是非常困难的。

It's very hard for a doctor to summon all of this knowledge in the course of a conversation with the patient.

他们很快就能向医院和医疗组织证明，他们实际上可以将医生的工作效率提高25%。

And very quickly, were able to show hospitals and healthcare organisations that they could actually improve the productivity of doctors by 25%.

那么现在发生了什么？

And what happens now?

Augmedix 几乎已遍布大多数医院和各种场景，但这位创始人是如何开发出它的呢？

Augmedix is there virtually in most hospitals, most things, but how did the guy develop it?

他发现了一个机会，观察到一件事后看来显而易见、却无人关注的事情。

He found an opportunity, observed something that in retrospect is obvious, but nobody paid attention to it.

他解决了一个被忽视的问题。

What he did was he solved an orphan problem.

医生们抱怨了。

Doctors complained.

嘿，我们浪费时间在更新上。

Hey, we're wasting our time updating.

患者说，发生了什么事？

Patients said, what is happening?

为什么医生不花更多时间陪我？

Why isn't the doctor spending more time with me?

尽管人们都在抱怨，但直到这个家伙行动起来，才有人真正去做这件事，当然，他还有位身为医学生的联合创始人。

Even though people complain, nobody did anything until this guy went and did it, Of course, with his co founder who was a medical school student.

希望这能给你一些启发。

Hopefully, this gives you an idea.

关键不在于你拥有多少资源，而在于观察那些被忽视的、亟待解决的问题。

The key is not all the resources you need, but the key is observing the orphan problem that you need to address.

当我们回来时，聊聊诗歌和管道工的隐喻如何应用于工作之外的场景。

When we come back, how the metaphor of poetry and plumbing applies to context outside of work.

你正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

当你开始一个项目时，很容易沉溺于它的浪漫幻想中。

When you're starting a project, it's easy to get lost in the romance of it.

你有一个绝妙的点子。

You have a brilliant idea.

你迫不及待地想让它实现。

You cannot wait to make it happen.

但很快，你就必须付出艰苦的努力，将这个想法变为现实。

But soon, you have to do the hard work of transforming that idea into reality.