本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
大家最近怎么样？
What's up everybody?
我叫德米特里·科菲纳斯，你们正在收听《隐性力量》，这是一档旨在激励投资者、企业家和普通民众挑战主流叙事、学会批判性思考塑造我们世界的权力体系的播客。
My name is Demetri Kofinas, and you're listening to Hidden Forces, a podcast that inspires investors, entrepreneurs, and everyday citizens to challenge consensus narratives and learn how to think critically about the systems of power shaping our world.
本期《隐性力量》的嘉宾是丽贝卡·戈德斯坦，她是一位哲学家、小说家，也是麦克阿瑟奖得主。
My guest in this episode of Hidden Forces is Rebecca Goldstein, a philosopher, novelist, and MacArthur Fellowship recipient.
她已出版了11本书，其中最新作品《意义本能》探讨了人类最基本的愿望——渴望自己的生命有意义，渴望我们不是仅仅来过又离开，一切毫无价值。
She's the author of 11 books, including her latest work, The Mattering Instinct, which explores our fundamental human longing to feel that our lives matter, that we didn't just come and go and it was all for nothing.
我们用第一个小时探讨了丽贝卡对‘意义’这一问题着迷的起源，这种本能如何不同于我们生物层面的自我保存驱动力，以及我们为何不仅希望对自己有意义，更渴望客观上被赋予意义。
We spend the first hour exploring the origins of Rebecca's fascination with the question of mattering, how this instinct manifests differently from our biological drive for self preservation, and why we long not just to matter to ourselves, but to feel that we matter objectively.
我们讨论了关注与应得感在我们意义感中的关键作用，幸福与满足感之间的区别，以及育儿和早期家庭动态如何塑造我们与这种基本人类渴望的关系。
We discussed the critical role played by attention and deservingness in our sense of mattering, the distinction between happiness and fulfillment, and how parenting and early family dynamics shape our relationship with this fundamental human longing.
第二个小时深入探讨了丽贝卡提出的‘意义’概念，她将其划分为四种典型类型：英雄式的奋斗者、社交者、竞争者和超越者。
The second hour is devoted to a more in-depth exploration of Rebecca's concept of the mattering which identifies four distinct archetypes, heroic strivers, socializers, competitors, and transcenders.
我们分析了抑郁与我们对意义的渴望之间的关系，社交媒体如何塑造当代人寻求认同的方式，以及某些追求意义的方式在客观上优于其他方式。
We examine the relationship between depression and our longing to matter, the role of social media in shaping how contemporary generations experience their own search for validation, and how some approaches to mattering are objectively better than others.
如果你想获取这段对话的全部内容，请访问 hiddenforces.
If you want access to all of this conversation, go to hiddenforces.
Premium 频道，你可以在手机上使用你最喜欢的播客应用收听，就像你现在收听这一集一样。
Premium feed, which you can listen to on your mobile device using your favorite podcast app, just like you're listening to this episode right now.
如果你想加入讨论并成为 Hidden Forces Genius 社区的成员，该社区包括与嘉宾的问答通话、第三方研究与分析的折扣访问权，以及如私人晚宴和周末静修等线下活动。
If you want to join in on the conversation and become a member of the Hidden Forces Genius community, which includes Q and A calls with guests, discounted access to third party research and analysis, and in person events like our intimate dinners and weekend retreats.
你也可以在我们的订阅页面完成这一操作。
You can also do that on our subscriber page.
如果你还有任何问题，欢迎发送邮件至 infohiddenforces。
And if you still have questions, feel free to send an email to infohiddenforces.
Io，我会或我们的团队成员尽快回复你。
Io, and I or someone from our team will get right back to you.
好了，接下来请欣赏我嘉宾丽贝卡·戈德斯坦带来的这场深刻、真挚且充满人性的对话。
And with that, please enjoy this deeply philosophical, heartfelt, and distinctly human conversation with my guest, Rebecca Goldstein.
丽贝卡·戈德斯坦，欢迎来到 Hidden Forces。
Rebecca Goldstein, welcome to Hidden Forces.
欢迎回到Hidden Forces，我该这么说。
Welcome back to Hidden Forces, I should say.
很高兴能再次回来。
Well, it's great to be back.
你上次上这个播客大概是七年前吧，我想，或者可能是六年前。
So you were on the podcast like, almost seven years ago, I think, or maybe six years ago.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
2018年，2018年。
2018, 2018.
我知道。
I know.
所以在疫情之前。
So before before the pandemic.
是的。
Yes.
那是在疫情之前，而且还是在演播室录制的。
It was before the pandemic, and it was in studio as well.
那是美好的旧时光，我们能到演播室做节目，能见到你和我所有的其他嘉宾，真是一种荣幸。
Those were the good old days where we we got to do things in studio and it was a privilege to get to meet you and all my other guests.
你当时上节目是为了谈论你的书《谷歌广场上的柏拉图》。
You came on the show back then to talk about your book, Plato at the Googleplex.
但即便那时，我们也提到了你新书的主题——《论重要性》。
But even then, A Conversation About Mattering, which is what your new book is about, came up.
你当时甚至跟我聊过，你正在研究这个想法。
And you even talked to me then about how you were working on this idea.
我不确定你那时是否已经开始写作，但这个想法已经在你脑海中了。
I don't know that you were writing at the time, but it was on your mind.
你为这本书工作了多久？
How long have you been working on this book for?
让我想想。
Oh, let me think.
从某种意义上说，自从我的第一本书以来，我就一直在思考这个话题。
In some sense, I've been thinking about this topic ever since my first book.
这是我的第十一本书。
This is my eleventh book.
但我原本并不打算写一本关于这个主题的书。
But I I wasn't planning to ever write a book about it.
它只是逐渐成为一个与各种人交谈时非常有趣的话题。
It just became a very interesting topic to talk with various people on.
你知道，如果你在飞机、火车或巴士上坐在我旁边，想聊聊天，我们很可能会开始谈论你的‘重要性’项目。
You know, if you're sitting next to me on a plane or a train, a bus, and you wanna chat, we're gonna start talking about your mat what I call mattering project.
甚至说起来有点好笑，我还遇到过一些人想搭讪我，而我会开始跟他们聊什么？
And I've even you know, it's funny, but I've even had guys trying to pick me up, and I will start talking to them about what?
为什么这让他们觉得自己如此重要。
Why that makes them feel like they matter so much.
明白吗？
Know?
真有趣，是的。
What an interesting Yeah.
多么有趣的回应。
What an interesting response.
他们根本没意识到自己会陷入什么境地。
They they don't realize what they're getting into.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
我的意思是，我特别记得有一次对话。
I mean, there's one conversation in particular I remember.
他把自己定义为搭讪艺术家，这真是太令人着迷了。
Was really defined himself as a pickup artist, and that was just so fascinating.
他有一堆数据。
He had stats.
他的价值项目就是他在约会市场中的表现如何。
His mattering project was how well he performed in the dating pool.
在
In the
约会市场中。
dating pool.
这并不罕见，尤其是对于年轻男性。
Not uncommon, especially for young men.
没错。
Exactly.
我的意思是，这是一个很难回答的问题，因为你怎么可能回答这样的问题呢？
I mean, is a very difficult question to ask because it's like, how do you even answer a question like this?
但你是怎么开始对这个问题产生兴趣的？
But how did you first become interested in asking this question?
不是那种‘我的人生有意义吗？’这样的问题。
Not necessarily like, does my life matter?
而是意识到一个更深层的问题：我为什么问这个问题？
But realizing the sort of meta question of, why am I asking this question?
这意味著什么？
What does it mean?
为什么在亚里士多德伦理学或关于美好生活的类似问题之外，还存在一个哲学分支，专门探讨这个在我内心燃烧的问题？
And why is there a branch of philosophy beyond sort of maybe Aristotelian ethics or something along the question of what is a good life that actually addresses this issue, this question that's burning at the center of my being?
没错。
Exactly.
奇怪的是，这发生在我写第一本书的时候，那对我来说是一次真正的转变，因为我接受的是科学哲学的训练。
Strangely, it was when I was writing my first book, which was a real departure for me because I was trained as a philosopher of science.
我以前做的是比较技术性的工作，比如科学哲学、数学哲学。
I did kind of technical stuff, philosophy of science, philosophy of math.
我写过一本关于哥德尔不完备定理的书。
I have a a book on Godel's incompleteness theorems.
但我发现自己竟然在写一部小说，这完全是我从未想过会去做的事。
But I found myself writing a novel, which is something I never thought I would do.
第一句话突然浮现在我脑海中。
A first sentence came to me.
我经常被人问起，嫁给一个天才是一种什么感觉。
I'm often asked what it's like to be married to a genius.
这句话突然就出现在我脑海中。
It just came to me out of nowhere.
那不是我的声音。
It was not my voice.
那也不是我的故事。
It was not my story.
这就像一份礼物。
And it was just this gift.
于是我写了一部小说。
And I I wrote a novel.
它叫《身心问题》。
It was called The Mind Body Problem.
这是一部哲学小说。
It was a philosophical novel.
但我的学术哲学家生涯实际上受到了重大打击，因为对于一位年轻、尚未获得终身教职的哲学助理教授来说，写小说是一件很轻浮的事。
But my career as an academic philosopher actually took a big hit because, you know, it was a frivolous thing for a young as yet untenured assistant professor of philosophy to do to write a novel.
你知道的？
You know?
而且这还是一部有点性感的小说，你知道的，这使得它显得更加轻浮，但我一点也不觉得它轻浮。
And it was kinda sexy novel, you know, which made it all the more frivolous, but I didn't find it at all frivolous.
但当我写完第一稿并卖掉它时，编辑问我一个问题。
But what had happened when I I had I had written that first draft, I and I sold it, and the editor asked me the following question.
你的角色非常漂亮、聪明、幽默，极具性吸引力，但她却非常不快乐。
Your character is very pretty, very smart, very funny, very sexually desirable, and she's so unhappy.
她为什么这么不快乐？
Why is she so unhappy?
我思考了这个问题。
And I thought about this.
你知道，我对她有很深的了解，但她是个不同的角色，这正是它如此令人兴奋的原因。
You know, she was sort of I had great access to her, but she was a different character, which was what made it so exciting.
然后我听到她用她自己的声音回答道，你知道，那是因为我觉得自己并不像我最在乎的那样重要。
And then I heard her ask answering in her her voice, you know, And it was because I don't feel like I matter in the way that most matters to me.
而她正是那个提出‘重要性地图’这一概念的人，某种程度上说，这个概念在我的更成熟理论中起着核心作用。
And she was the one who came up with, in a sense, you know, this whole idea of the mattering map, which functions very centrally in my more developed theory.
但对你来说，这太讽刺了：这个对我作为哲学家而言意义最重大的想法，竟然是通过一部小说、一个并非我本人的角色而获得的，而这个角色 somehow 能让我接触到这个深刻的问题，让我跳出自我，以旁观者的角度提出这个问题，因为那是另一个角色。
But, you know, to me, it's so ironic that the idea that's come to mean the most to me as a philosopher came to me by way of a novel, of a character who was not myself, and that somehow was able to give me access to to this deep question, to stand outside myself, and to be able to ask this question from outside in a way because it was another character.
正是在那时，这种执念或兴趣——我不知道该称其为执念还是兴趣——第一次生根发芽。
And that's when this obsession or interest I don't know if it's an obsession, but this interest first took root.
这太有趣了。
That's so interesting.
你认为这是因为你能够幻想，能够创造一个拥有你理想中所有特质的虚构角色，而这个角色最终却依然面临我们每个人都挣扎的问题，尽管她看似拥有一切。
Do you think that was because you were able to fantasize, you were able to create an imaginary character that had maybe all the characteristics of a life that you think you would want, and that this character ultimately ended up with the same question that each of us wrestles with despite the fact that she seemed to have everything.
是的。
Yeah.
我想就是这样。
I think that's it.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这样。
That is it.
我发现我写过其他小说，我发现当你置身于角色之中时，你知道，你能非常深入地理解他们，但这确实非常不同。
And I've found I've written to other novels and I find that this sort of you're in the character, you know, so you have great access to it, but it really is quite different.
你知道吗？
You know what?
或者说我总是写与我自己非常不同的角色。
Or at least I always write characters who are very different from myself.
这正是其中的乐趣。
That's the fun of it.
似乎我能够触及到对我们所有人而言都至关重要的东西。
It seems that I can get to something that is essential to all of us.
不管怎样，事情就是这样发生的。
Anyway, that's the way it happened.
但要明确地说，我其实没读过《身心问题》这本书，所以我不确定这是否准确捕捉了你塑造这个角色时的本意。
Well, to be clear, I I didn't I hadn't read the mind body problem, so I actually don't know if that accurately captures what your intentions were when you wrote the character.
不过，无论如何，能通过一个虚构的人物来理解你是如何触及这一点的，这对我来说很有趣。
But, anyways, it was interesting for me to contemplate what allowed you to access that through an imaginary person.
让我们更具体地谈谈这本书的主题，因为我想人们也会好奇：这到底是什么意思？
Let's get to the subject of the book more specifically, because I think people will also be wondering, what does this even mean?
重要性。
Mattering.
那么，‘重要性’是什么意思？‘重要’又意味着什么？
So what is mattering and what does it mean to matter?
是的。
Yeah.
我们经常谈论什么才是重要的。
So we talk about what matters.
有很多书都用这种句式做标题，比如《为什么X重要》，《为什么金钱重要》，《为什么耶稣重要》，《为什么良好的性生活重要》。
There are tons of books that use that matrix for a title, you know, why x matters, you know, why money matters, why Jesus matters, why good sex matters.
有太多书籍讨论为什么棒球重要，为什么……所以我们确实会谈论什么重要，而且我们非常在意这一点。
There are just tons of of books, why baseball matters, why and so we do talk about what matters, and we care about that a great deal.
我们也会谈论谁重要，而这对我们来说至关重要。
And we talk about who matters, and that matters a lot to us.
我们都希望自己被列为重要之人，这正是‘重要感’本能的全部含义。
We all want to be counted among those who matter, and that's what the mattering instinct is all about.
但我认为，‘重要’的核心含义是值得被关注，而这已经非常有趣了。
But what matter means, I think, at its core is being deserving of attention, And that's already extremely interesting.
关注本身非常有趣。
Attention is very interesting.
我们总在说，我们生活在一个注意力经济的时代。
We're we're always talking about we live in an attention economy.
每个人都渴望关注。
Everybody wants attention.
但‘值得’这个概念非常有趣，因为‘值得’是一种哲学家所说的规范性概念。
But deserving deserving is so interesting because deserving is a concept that's what philosophers call normative.
它涉及正当性的规范。
It involves norms of justification.
当我们询问某物是否值得时，我们是在引入什么才算得上值得。
When we're asking if something is deserving, we're bringing into this what counts as as deserving.
你如何评估这一点？
How are you assessing this?
你的标准是什么？
What are your norms here?
因此，这已经把我们带入了关于价值与应当的问题。
And so that already gets us into questions of values of ought.
你知道，在哲学中，我们对‘是’与‘应当’做了明确区分。
You know, in in philosophy, we we make a big distinction between is and ought.
如果我们确实是渴望感到自己值得被关注的生物，那么是谁的关注？
And if in fact we are creatures who want to feel deserving of tension, of whose attention?
最终，是自己的关注。
Ultimately, own attention.
这意味着，从本质上讲，我们是规范性的生物，关心价值的生物。
That means that we are, in our very essence, normative creatures, creatures who care about values.
因此，这立刻揭示了人类有多么非常有趣。
So it right away gets us shows how very, very interesting we humans are.
显然，我认为这一点你在书中也提到过，甚至在你上次做客节目时我们也讨论过，我们主观上对自己很重要。
So obviously, and I think this is something that you write in the book and it's something we even talked about in your last appearance on the show that we subjectively matter to ourselves.
这是一种生存的默认机制。
That's like a default mechanism of survival.
如果你不觉得自己主观上重要，那就真的没有继续活下去的意志力。
If you don't subjectively matter, then you have really no willpower to go on living.
没错。
Exactly.
但有趣的是，我们似乎还觉得需要客观地重要。
But what's interesting is that we seem to also feel that we need to matter objectively.
换句话说，这大概就回到了你关于应得性的观点：我们需要不仅配得上他人的关注，也配得上自己的关注。
In other words, and this I guess gets to your point about deserving, that we need to be deserving of not just other people's attention, but also of our own attention.
没错。
Exactly.
你能帮我理解一下，为什么在几乎所有情况下我们已经主观上重要了（否则我们根本没理由继续活下去）的时候，还会有这种需要证明自己客观上重要的需求吗？
Can you help me understand what explains this need to prove that objectively matter when clearly we subjectively matter in almost all circumstances because otherwise we have no point in going on living?
所以
So what
是什么原因导致了这一点？
explains that?
是的。
Yeah.
所以存在自我重要性，事实上，和所有生物一样，我们从生物学上就被设定为首要追求生存与繁荣。
So there's self mattering, you know, and in fact, we're set up biologically as all creatures are to, first and foremost, want to survive and to flourish.
从细菌到人类，这都嵌入在每一个生物体中。
You know, for the bacterium to us, you know, this is built into any biological creature.
我的意思是，我可以更多谈谈背后的科学依据，但我们就先从这一点开始吧：当然，我们对自己重要的认知早已深深烙印在我们的身份认同中。
I mean, I can talk more about the science behind this, you know, but let's just start there, you know, that that, of course, it's pounded into our very identity that we matter to ourselves.
这意味着我们觉得自己值得获得自己的关注。
That is that we feel ourselves to be deserving of our own attention.
你知道，这正是关键所在。
You know, that that that is what it takes.
注意力作为一种适应机制进化而来，帮助我们生存，以寻找低熵能量的来源。
Attention evolved as an adaptation to help us in our own survival to find sources of low entropy energy.
换句话说，就是食物和阳光；同时也要关注威胁我们生存与繁荣的因素，比如捕食者、火灾和混乱，以便我们能够逃离它们。
In other words, food, sunlight, and to be able to pay attention to sources of energy, food, sunlight, and pay attention to threats to our own survival and flourishing, you know, predators, fire, pandemonium, so we can flee it.
因此，当然，我们一直在关注环境以及它对我们的影响。
And so, of course, you know, we are constantly paying attention to our environment and how it affects us.
我们给予自己极大的关注。
We pay ourselves a tremendous amount of attention.
这本身就是不言而喻的。
That's just a given.
所以我们对自己很重要。
So we matter to ourselves.
但关键是。
But here's the thing.
这一点当然适用于所有生物。
And this is true of of of course for all living creatures.
或者至少适用于所有进化出注意力的生物。
Or or all living creatures certainly who have evolved attention.
我们拥有巨大的大脑。
We have these big big brains.
我们大脑的能力之一就是自我反思。
And one of our capacities of our brains is self reflection.
我可以谈谈我们是如何进化出这种能力的。
And I I could talk about how we, I think, we evolve this.
但这使我们能够以某种方式跳出自我，就像我之前描述的那样，当我沉浸在虚构生物中时，我在这方面做得非常彻底。
But what this allows us to do is to, in some sense, step out of ourselves the way I actually already described that I I do it to a very great degree when I'm when I'm inhabiting a fictional creature.
但我们都有这种能力，能够跳出自我，把自己看作世界中的另一个物体，去提问、去发现关于自己的新事物。
But we all have this capacity to step outside ourselves and to think of ourselves as just another object in the world that we can ask questions about, that we can discover new things about.
人们去接受心理治疗，是为了发现那些能帮助他们生存与成长的关于自己的新事物。
People go to therapy in order to discover new things about themselves that will help them to survive and to flourish.
我们注意到自己的一件事是，仅仅因为是我们自己，就如此执着而持续地投入大量注意力在自己身上。
And one of the things that we notice about ourselves is how much damned attention we pay to ourselves obsessively and constantly just in virtue of being ourselves.
这种注意力深深烙印在我们的身份之中。
That's pounded into our very identity.
我的意思是，如果这个世界上没有人像我这样如此关注丽贝卡·纽伯格·戈德斯坦，那换句话说，我就已经死了。
I mean, when there's not somebody on this planet who pays the amount of attention that I pay to one Rebecca Newburger Goldstein, that is another way of saying that I will be dead.
对吧？
Right?
从生物学角度来说，没有任何其他人会像我这样如此关注我自身。
That nobody else pays that much attention as a matter of biology to me myself.
实际上，斯宾诺莎早在十七世纪就捕捉到了这个观点，这位对我影响深远的伟大哲学家。
Actually, Spinoza captured this idea back in the seventeenth century, the great philosopher Spinoza who has had such an influence on me.
他通过‘努力’（conatus）这个概念表达了这一思想：我们的身份就在于努力维持并促进自身的存在，这意味着我们会投入大量注意力在自己身上。
He captures this idea in the in the notion of conitas, that what our identity consists in is the striving to persist and to flourish in our own being, which means we pay a lot of attention to ourselves.
我们注意到了这一点，并开始问：为什么我值得拥有这么多关注？
We notice this and we ask, you know, why am I so deserving of all of this attention?
我们都有能力从自身中抽离出来。
We all have this capacity to step outside of ourselves.
我认为这种能力在青春期和成年早期最为强烈。
I think it's most heightened in adolescence and early adulthood.
而这种抽离自我的能力，使我们成为了具有规范性的存在——我们不希望这种关注只是某种任意的现象。
And the step outside ourselves is what turns us into the normative creatures that we are, that we don't want it to just be the this arbitrary thing.
我如此关注自己，是因为我就是我自己。
I pay so much attention to myself because I am myself.
我们希望为这种关注找到某种正当理由。
We want to justify it in some way.
我们希望，自己所获得的这些关注，是源于我们自己认为值得，而不是别人觉得我们值得。
We want all of that attention we pay to ourselves for us to feel deserving of it, not that other people think we're deserving, that we ourselves think we're deserving of it.
如果你没有这种感觉，你就会说‘无所谓’，意思是‘我客观上无关紧要’，而这正是抑郁症患者最典型的说法。
And if you don't feel that, you're going to say something like, don't matter, meaning I don't objectively matter, and that is the most characteristic thing that people who are suffering from depression say.
你知道，感到自己无关紧要、无法变得重要，而别人却重要，自己永远都不会重要，这几乎是一种自我憎恶。
You know, to feel that you don't matter, that you can't matter, that others matter, but that you don't and you never will is to say something almost self loathing.
这简直就像你再也无法忍受与自己为伴，而这正是抑郁的表现。
It's almost as if you can't stand to be in the company of yourself anymore, which depression is.
我能理解这种感受。
I can relate to that.
我认为我非常希望在接下来的对话中，当我们探讨四种不同的‘重要性’原型时，能深入探讨这一点。
And I think I would actually love to explore that shortly in the conversation when we get into the four different types of mattering archetypes.
因为我在二十多岁时确实经历过这种感觉，我发现很多人都有类似的经历。
Because I experienced that certainly in my twenties, and I find that a lot of people have.
我真希望当时就有这本书。
I wish that actually I had this book.
我真希望那时候就有这本书，这样我就能读到它了。
I wish this book was around back then, then I could have read it.
我觉得它本可以减轻我的痛苦。
I think it would have eased my suffering.
说到这里，书中经常出现一个词。
On that note, there's a word that comes up a lot in the book.
显然，我认为客观与主观归属感之间的这种洞察或区分非常重要。
Obviously, think this insight or this distinction between objective versus subjective mattering is very important.
但我认为更重要的是‘渴望’这个词。
But I think even more important is the word longing.
为什么将归属感在我们内心的表现描述为一种本能的渴望如此重要？
Why was it important to describe the way in which mattering manifests within us as instinctual longing to matter?
换句话说，为什么承认这不仅仅是一种愿望或需求，而是一种渴望如此重要？
In other words, why is it important to acknowledge that this isn't just a want or a need, but it's a longing?
渴望。
A longing.
我非常喜欢‘渴望’这个词。
I love that word, longing.
关于这个词，你知道，它确实是一种持久的东西。
And one of the things about it is, you know, it it is a long thing.
它永远无法被完全满足。
It is it can never be entirely satisfied.
这就是我们所面对的不确定性。
That's the uncertainty that we live with.
作为渴望被重视的生物，我们内心最深处知道，自己可能无法做到，而这本书的一个重要主题就是，人们试图安抚这种渴望的方式多种多样——不是为了满足它，因为我们内心深处明白，也许我们的方式根本就是错的。
And being creatures who long to matter, we know in our deepest selves that we may not and that we you know, one of the big themes of of the book is the diversity of ways in which people go about trying to appease this, not satisfy it because we know in our deepest selves, maybe we're getting it wrong.
或者我们心存疑虑，我们有疑虑。
Or we have doubts about We have doubts.
是否如此。
Whether or not.
我们有疑虑。
We have doubts.
我的意思是，那些最难相处、给他人制造最多麻烦的人，往往是那些无法忍受这些疑虑、不敢正视这些疑虑、必须坚信自己方式唯一正确的人。
I mean and, you know, some of the people who perhaps are the most difficult to live with or who make the most trouble for others on this planet are those who who can't suffer these doubts, who can't face up to these doubts, who have to feel that this is the way.
没有别的路可走。
There is no other way.
这就是你产生意义的方式。
This is how you matter.
而这实际上可能对他人造成极大的危险。
And that can be very, very dangerous to other people, actually.
但事实是，我们并不知道。
But, yeah, the truth of the matter is we don't know.
你知道，这种信念是一种飞跃，我们以自己的生命为赌注。
You know, that there is a kind of leap of faith that comes from that we stake our lives, our own individual lives.
而我们得出的答案，是为了安抚、解决这种渴望，但这种渴望意味着我们永远无法真正知晓。
And the answer that we come up with, we're trying to appease, to solve this longing, but it's a longing, meaning we never really know.
如果你非要等到有确凿证据才行动，那你终将错失人生。
And if you want proof of it before, you're going to end up missing out on your life.
我们是否发现这一点？别急着下结论，因为书中在我们即将分析的不同原型下已经探讨了部分内容。
Do we find that and not to get ahead of ourselves because some of this is addressed in the book under the different archetypes that we're about to analyze.
但你在观察或思考这个问题时，是否发现这些疑虑会随着人生历程逐渐缓解，而在童年和青春期初期尤为强烈？
But do you find that people or in reflecting on this or thinking about this, do you find that those doubts tend to ease over the course of one's life, but that they're especially intense in childhood and early adolescence?
如果是这样，为什么呢？
And if so, why?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我认为在这里，我们之间存在着巨大的多样性。
You know, I think that here again, there's great diversity among us.
在和人们谈论这个话题时，我尤其对我们的多样性印象深刻。
That's one of the things in talking to people about this that's I've really become impressed with the diversity among us.
所以对一些人来说，这些疑虑仍然非常强烈。
So for some people, you know, the doubts remain very present.
我认为这在很大程度上取决于我所谓的‘重要性项目’，也就是我用来区分我们之间差异的那些选择。
I think it depends a lot on what I call the mattering project that you've chosen, ways that I can you know, that I offer to distinguish among among us in terms of the projects that we choose.
但对于一些人来说，比如那些投身于创意艺术的人，他们拥有我所说的‘重要性评判者’，比如我自己，在哲学家和作家这两种职业中，我都深受重要性评判者的影响。
But for some people, those who go into, say, the creative arts that are where you have what I call a mattering adjudicators who decide you know, I'm, like, myself, for example, much subject to mattering adjudicators in in both of my careers as a philosopher and as as a writer.
有评论家。
There are reviewers.
还有编辑。
There are editors.
还有出版商、评论家和读者，他们都在评判我努力做出有意义之事的尝试。
There are publishers, critics, readers who are judging my attempts to do something that matters.
我认为，当你受到他人评判时，很容易产生这些疑虑。
And I think when, you know, you are subject to others adjudicating you, it's very easy to feel those doubts.
你知道吗？
You know?
每一次创作，我都再次走进世界，试图提供一些他人认为有意义的东西，而他们可能会拒绝它。
Every work is here I am once again going out into the world trying to offer something that other people think matters, and they may they may reject it.
所以，我认为这在很大程度上取决于一个人的心理气质，以及你如何决定去满足那种渴望被重视的冲动——是否愿意接受来自他人的大量评判。
So, you know, it it it depends a lot on, I think, one's own psychological temperament and also just how you have decided to try to appease the longing to matter, whether you are going to be subject to a lot of judgments from others.
因此，情况各不相同。
So it differs.
情况各不相同。
It differs.
所以你接受过哲学训练。
So you're trained in philosophy.
我们可能正在进入心理学的领域。
We might be venturing into the world of psychology here.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我会谨慎地进行。
So I'll do so judiciously.
但在我看来，作为人类，我们一生中这种本能首次显现，是在与父母的关系中。
But it seems to me that as human beings, the first real instance in our lives where this instinct manifests itself is in our relationship with our parents.
因为如果我们对父母来说不重要，那在幼年时期就会让我们面临存在性的危险。
Because if we don't matter to our parents, well that puts us in existential danger at a very young age.
因此，我想知道，就你所了解的研究而言，育儿在多大程度上影响了我们成长过程中“被重视”本能的显现，以及我们如何在情感上与这种本能建立联系。
And so I wonder what does the research say to the extent that you're familiar with it about the role of parenting in impacting the manifestation of the mattering instinct as we grow older and how we emotionally relate to that instinct.
比如，如果父母给予我们大量的爱和关注，让我们感到自己很重要， versus 父母抛弃我们，或者我们从未见过他们，等等。
So that if, for example, have parents that show us lots of love and attention, make us feel that we matter versus parents that abandon us or we never get to meet or whatever.
这两种极端情况之间有什么相似之处和不同之处吗？
Are there similarities and differences between, let's say, these two extremes of the distribution?
是的。
Yeah.
我们对世界的第一个模型就是我们的家庭，它对我们有着持久的影响，比如我们在这个世界上有多重要。
No, this is our first model of the world is our is our family, and it has a a lasting impact on us, you know, how much we feel like we matter in this world.
这个最初模型就是家庭，以及其中的权威人物。
That first model is the family with these authority figures.
这些权威人物是我们生命中唯一可能的‘重要性’裁决者。
These are mannering adjudicators if ever there are are some in our lives.
天啊。
And I have oh my gosh.
关于这个话题，我有太多故事了。
I have so many stories about this.
但总的来说，无论是心理学家们通过研究得出的结论，还是我自己长达四十年的非正式调研——我与各种人交谈、阅读大量传记——都提供了答案。
But general a general answer in terms of both the research of of psychologists who are testing this and my own informal research of basically four decades talking to everybody I can talk to about this and also reading lots of biographies.
你知道，这也是人生故事的一个非常好的来源。
You know, that's also a very good source of life stories.
因为我认为，正是人生故事才能揭示这种礼仪本能。
Because I think, you know, it's the life story that's the that gets at this mannering instinct.
但确实有一些人，他们的家庭在某种程度上让他们觉得自己太过重要。
But, yeah, there are people whose families, in some sense, make them feel like they matter too much.
对吧？
Right?
他们认为世界应该围绕着自己转，最终却会遭到残酷的现实打击，发现事实并非如此。
And that they are expect the world to revolve around them, and and and they're going to be rudely awakened to the fact that that's not the case.
因此，我确实遇到过一些人，他们的生活因期待世界像他们过度关注的父母那样对待自己而遭受了破坏。
And so I've I've certainly met peoples, people whose lives have been blighted by expecting the world to behave as their overly attentive parents behaved.
但另一方面，也有一些人，我在书中特别提到了一位。
But then, you know, the other people and and there's somebody who I I highlight the book.
我在这本书中融入了很多故事，因为我认为，这是展示‘被需要感’如何在人们生活中发挥作用的最生动方式。
I I I weave a lot of stories into into the book because I, you know, I think that this is, you know, the most dramatic way of showing how belonging to matter plays out in people's lives.
但你知道，我特别想到一个人，他曾经是个前纳粹皮肤head，父母对他很虐待。
But, you know, I'm thinking of particularly of this one person who who was it's a an ex Nazi skin head whose whose parents were abusive.
我的意思是，那真是个糟糕的处境。
I mean, it was it was a terrible situation.
他妈妈是个吸毒者。
His mom was a drug addict.
他在费城的贫民区长大。
He grew up in the mean streets of Philadelphia.
他的继父曾是海军摔跤队的，却把这孩子当沙包打。
His stepfather would think had been in the wrestling team in navy and use this kid as a as a punching bag.
而且他在学校也经常被欺负。
And and and he would get beaten up in school.
他是个白人孩子，在一所黑人学校里。
He was a white kid in a black school.
那情况真的太糟糕了。
And he it was just it was terrible.
然后，你知道，他就是觉得自己毫无价值。
And then, you know, he he just felt completely like he didn't matter.
放学回家的路上，他甚至故意想被车撞。
And walking home from school, he would actually try to get hit by a car.
我的意思是，这个人极度厌恶自己，自我憎恨。
I mean, this was someone who hated being himself, self loathing.
后来他遇到了这些皮肤族，他们告诉他：你很重要。
And then he ran into these skinheads, and they told him, you matter.
照照镜子，看看你是什么人。
Look in the mirror and see what you are.
你是一个白人、男性、异性恋、美国人。
You are a white male heterosexual American.
你只需要知道这些就够了。
That's all you need to know.
他们用的是‘重要’这个词。
And they used the word mattering.
对吧？
Right?
这真的非常有趣。
And it was so it's just so interesting.
所以，你知道，他成为了新纳粹运动中的一个重要人物，做了许多可怕而暴力的事情。
And so, you know, he became a significant force in the neo Nazi movement and did terrible things, violent things.
他最终走出来了，而他是如何走出来的，非常非常有趣。
He came out of it, and the way he came out of it is very, very interesting.
但，是的，你知道，他确实是极端的代表。
But, yeah, you know, that he is, like, the extreme.
但让我这么说吧，这真的很难。
But let me just say, you know, it's so hard.
这就是为什么当父母这么难的原因。
This is why being a parent is so hard.
这取决于你孩子的性格，还有太多其他因素。
It depends on the temperament of your child and, well, so many things.
你知道吗？
You know?
对一个孩子有效的方法，对另一个孩子却行不通。
What works for one child was not gonna work for the other.
我听过一个故事，是一位很棒的母亲，她有三个儿子。
One story I heard was from this mother, a wonderful mother who had three sons.
有一天，她的二儿子对她说，当时他大约五六岁，说：你不像爱我兄弟那样爱我。
And her middle son said to her one day, and he was about five or six at the time, said to her, you don't love me as much as you love my brothers.
她问：为什么？
And she said, why?
他说：当你在厨房水槽洗碗时，如果我哥哥问你问题，你会关掉水。
And he said, when you're at the kitchen sink doing the dishes, if my older brother asks you a question, you turn off the water.
如果我弟弟问你问题，你也会关掉水。
If my younger brother asks a question, you turn off the water.
但当我问你问题时，你却不关掉水。
But when I ask you a question, you don't turn off the water.
所以你看这一点。
So look at that.
你知道吗，她跟我说，你知道吗？
You know, how and she said to me, you know what?
他说得对。
He's right.
我觉得他非常刻板。
I find him very pedantic.
你知道吗，他问了一些我觉得很无聊的刻板问题。
You know, he asked these very pedantic questions that I find very boring.
而且，你知道，但他注意到了这一点。
And and and, you know, but he spotted this.
所以，孩子们真的很
So, like, kids are so
敏锐。
Perceptive.
所以孩子对最细微的迹象都特别敏感，你知道的，当父母真的很难。
So receptive to the slightest, you know, you know, It's parents give themselves tough to be a parent.
这非常
It's a very
总是观察着，很有帮助。
helpful always watching.
他们总是在观察。
They're always watching.
他们总是非常关注你的注意力在哪里。
They're always so focused on where your attention is.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
所以父母意识到这一点是好事。
So it's a good thing for parents to be aware of.
有时候，我们只是背叛了自己。
And sometimes, we just we betray ourselves.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这个孩子很无聊。
I find this kid boring.
我的意思是，我知道你认识乔纳森·海特，我觉得是乔纳森，但也可能是其他人。
I mean, I know you know Jonathan Haight, and I think it was Jonathan but it could have been so many other people.
我的意思是，早年我在社交媒体上做过很多期节目，探讨社交媒体、移动设备和无处不在的连接对我们自己、家庭和孩子的影响。
I mean, we I did so many episodes on this back in the early days on social media, on the impact of social media and mobile devices and ubiquitous connectivity on ourselves, on our families and on our children.
我后来了解到，也许是在和乔纳森讨论时，许多心理学家认为，儿童产生焦虑的原因——我假设这现在已经被广泛接受，但数据始终存在不同的解读。
And I learned, again, may have been with Jonathan, that the reason that many psychologists believe that children And I assume this is pretty established now, but again, the data is always open to interpretation.
手机给年幼的孩子带来如此多焦虑的原因，并不一定是他们自己在使用手机，而是因为他们周围的父母在使用手机。
That the reason that cell phones generate so much anxiety in young children isn't necessarily because they're using them, but because they're around their parents while their parents are using them.
因此，手机——或者说智能手机——本质上是一个通道，将父母的注意力从孩子身上转移到了手机上。
And so the cell phone is essentially like the smartphone is this portal that takes attention away from them, their parents' attention away from them towards the phone.
因此，我认为自智能手机早期使用以来的这些年里，已经出现了很多新的发现。
And so I think a lot has come out in the years since that early period of smartphone usage.
我希望很多人已经调整了自己的行为。
I think hopefully a lot of folks have moderated their behavior.
但在我们进入各种类型之前，再问一个关于育儿的问题，因为它引出了一个区别：充实的生活与希腊人或亚里士多德所说的幸福。
But one more question about parenting before we get into the archetypes because it raises this distinction between a fulfilling life or what the Greeks or Aristotle called and happiness.
我想是不是丹·吉尔伯特提出了‘育儿悖论’这个说法？
I think it's Was it Dan Gilbert that came up with the term the parenting paradox?
我不确定。
I don't
我觉得不是。
think so.
就是丹在那个TED演讲里说，育儿带来的快乐几乎和擦马桶差不多。
It Dan that had that video the TED Talks where he says that parenting, it makes you just about as happy as scrubbing the toilet.
是的。
Yeah.
他谈到，关于你，是的。
He talks So I about you're to Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得这真的很有趣，对吧？
So I mean, I think this is really interesting, right?
如果我理解错了，请告诉我。
Tell me if I've got this wrong in your response.
我的理解是，从调查数据来看，如果你在父母日常生活中随机抽取一位父母，与非父母相比，父母的幸福感较低。
My understanding is that essentially when you look at the survey data, if you randomly sample a parent in the course of their normal life versus someone who's not a parent, parents are less happy.
但如果你直接问父母关于养育孩子或组建家庭的感受，他们会说这是他们做过的最充实、或最充实的事情之一。
But if you ask the parents specifically about having a child or having a family, they will tell you that it's the most fulfilling or one of the most fulfilling things that they ever could have done.
显然，极少有人会说他们后悔生孩子。
Very few presumably say that they regret having had kids.
那么，这究竟是为什么呢？
So what is that?
我的意思是，这就是悖论，对吧？
I mean, that's the paradox, right?
这个悖论在于，你说你其实很有成就感。
The paradox between like, so you're saying that you're really fulfilled.
这才是有意义的事情。
This is what's meaningful.
你想要追求这件事，但追求这件事却让你比那些不追求它的人更不快乐。
You want to pursue this thing, but pursuing this thing makes you less happy than someone else who doesn't pursue it.
是的。
Yeah.
这怎么说得通呢？
How does that make any sense?
对。
Yeah.
所以，幸福，你知道的，是一种情绪。
So happiness, you know, is an emotion.
展开剩余字幕（还有 280 条）
而所有的感情一样，它都是对当下处境的反应。
And like like all emotions, it is a response to present circumstances.
我们的情绪不仅仅是直觉。
Our emotions, they're not just gut feelings.
情绪具有认知内容。
Emotions have cognitive content.
因此，它在向我们反馈：我们试图在这个世界上生存与繁荣的主要目标，进行得怎么样？
And so it's giving us feedback about how well our major project of trying to survive and flourish in this world, how well is it going?
而幸福就是那种感觉，那种报告，表明一切进展顺利。
And happiness is that feeling, that report that, yeah, it's going well.
但和所有情绪一样，它并不打算持久。
But like all emotions, it's it's not meant to last.
它不是一种持久的状态。
It's not a long lasting thing.
我们现在知道，神经科学告诉我们，幸福涉及血清素等某些化学物质在大脑中释放，告诉我们：一切很好。
And and we know now, you know, we know the neuroscience of happiness, you know, that, you know, there are serotonin and and, you know, that there are certain chemicals that are being emitted in our brains and telling us, yeah, you know, we feel good.
这是一个良好的状况。
This is a good situation.
在这些测试中，我们衡量幸福的方式是，丹·吉尔伯特能够报告说，大多数父母，尤其是有年幼孩子的父母，虽然有多种因素可以量化这一点，但他们在一天中并不经常感到快乐。
And the way that we measure, you know, in these tests, you know, measure happiness, way he Dan Gilbert was able to report that most parents, especially of young children, and there are ways that we can actually qualify this, there are more factors that go into this, but are not feeling happy a lot during during the day.
他们感到的是挫败、无聊、愤怒和担忧。
They're feeling frustration, boredom, anger, worry.
天哪。
Oh my god.
如果你知道要对这些极其脆弱的小生命负责，就有太多需要担心的事情了。
If you if you know to be responsible for these very vulnerable little things is there's a lot to worry about.
压力大。
Stressed.
精疲力尽。
Exhaustion.
精疲力尽。
Exhaustion.
失眠，你知道的，这会让一切变得更糟。
Sleeplessness, you know, which makes everything worse.
所以，是的，这种即时的体验是，我现在的处境其实还不错。
So, yeah, that sort of moment to moment how, you know, my circumstance is good right now.
是的。
Yeah.
没那么多。
There's not that much.
当然，这个讨论中的另一个有趣之处在于，成为父母几乎必然要求你做出牺牲，尤其对于那些并非极其富裕的人来说，你必须在这一过程中牺牲一部分自我。
Of course, one of the other interesting things in the context of this discussion is that becoming a parent almost necessarily requires, especially true for anyone that isn't inordinately wealthy, that you sacrifice some portion of yourself in the course of doing so.
这是一种持续的让步，你需要放弃自己的需求和愿望，来满足孩子的需要。
It's an ongoing surrender of your own needs and wants in order to satisfy those of your child.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你提到除非你特别富有，这一点非常有趣。
And that's very interesting that you mentioned, unless you're inordinately wealthy.
当然，这也是这里的一个关键因素，比如你有多少钱用于育儿，或者你住在哪个国家？
And that, of course, is one of the qualifying factors here, like how much money do you have for a child care, or what country do you live in?
你有什么样的社会支持？
What kind of social support do you have?
那上千位母亲——丹·吉尔伯特提到的幸福统计数据来源的正是美国母亲。
Those a thousand mothers, it was mothers who were interviewed where this happiness statistic came up that Dan Gilbert refers to were American mothers.
而在那些对父母提供更好社会支持的国家，统计数据会有所不同。
And compared to other countries where there is more social support for mothers and fathers, the statistics change.
因此，这也是一个非常重要的因素。
So that's a very important factor also.
有多少社会支持？或者你有多少钱？
How much social support is there or how much money do you have?
但说到幸福，你测试的方法是让受试者每天记录情绪日记，写下自己何时感到快乐以及是什么情境让自己感到快乐——这对这些过度劳累的母亲来说又多了一项负担。
But so, you know, in terms of happiness and the way you test this is you ask your subjects to keep a journal, an emotions journal during the day, writing down just one more burden for these overworked mothers to have, writing down how often you're feeling happy and what are the circumstances that are making you feel happy.
正是通过这种方式，他得出了这一统计数据。
And from and that's how he's able to get the statistic.
是的。
Yeah.
你感到快乐的频率，甚至不亚于你打扫马桶时的快乐，实际上和你打扫马桶时的快乐频率差不多。
You feel about as happy as you do, not even when you're buying the things to to clean your toilet, but when about as happy as you do as when you're cleaning your it's about as often as when you're cleaning your toilet.
但这只是即时的、片段式的幸福感。
So but that's that moment to moment, episodic happiness.
但还有一件事，你之前提到过，就是古希腊的‘幸福论’（eudaimonia），也就是一种繁荣感。
But there's something else, you know, that you had gotten and you and you you spoke about, you know, the ancient Greek notion of eudaimonia, and that is the sense of flourishing.
这是一种对我们人生长远视角的衡量。
And that's a long range view that we take of our lives.
而且，这与我们所拥有的自我反思能力紧密相关，正是这种能力让我们最初产生了渴望被重视的向往——我们能够暂时跳出当下的生活，从更长远的角度审视自己：我在这里过得怎么样？
And, again, that's so tied up with the very capacity, self reflective capacity that we have that gives us the longing to matter in the first place, that we can sort of step outside of our lives, moment to moment, living the life, and look at the long view and say, you know, how well am I doing here?
有多满意？
How satisfied?
心理学家为此提出了一项非常有趣的测试，用以衡量这种繁荣与幸福感的概念，它被称为坎特尔测试。
And there's a very interesting test that psychologists have come up with to test this, this notion of flourishing, of well-being, and it's called the Cantrell test.
因此，它相当抽象。
And so it's quite abstract.
想象一架有十个台阶的梯子，设想你生活可能走向的不同方式，将这些可能性与你当前的实际生活进行比较，然后告诉我，你觉得自己站在第几级台阶上？
So it's imagine a ladder with 10 steps and imagine different ways that your life could go and compare this different ways that your life can go to your actual life, and then tell me at what step are you?
你能想象你的生活还能变得多好？
How much better can you imagine your life?
你能想象自己处于第十级吗？
Can you imagine are you at a at a 10?
这意味着你正在过着梦想中的生活。
That is you are living your dream life.
你根本想象不到生活还能更好，或者至少，任何一点改善都会好一些。
You can't imagine it going any better or one, you know, almost anything would be better.
你知道，我的生活真的很糟糕。
You know, this is my life is it's bad.
根本没有什么能让我对自己感到满意。
It's it's just nothing makes me feel good about myself.
这会是一个真正陷入抑郁的人。
This would be somebody who's really in in depression.
他们发现，即使你在日常情绪记录中承受着巨大的不快乐，仍然可能觉得自己的生活过得相当不错，父母就是这种情况。
And what they find is you can be tolerating a tremendous amount of unhappiness in terms of your episodic journal, emotions journal, and still feel that your life is going pretty damn well, and that's what they find with parents.
对吧？
Right?
所以这是一种解决这个悖论的方式。
So that's a way of resolving this paradox.
我们评估的是两件不同的事情。
It's two different things that we're assessing.
当父母们日复一日并不快乐，充满压力、失眠、无聊、沮丧、愤怒和内疚——又因为这些负面情绪而感到内疚时，他们却依然说，这没什么。
When parents who are, you know, who are day to day not terribly happy and filled with stress and sleeplessness, boredom, frustration, anger, and guilt, and guilt over all of those negative emotions because you feel guilty about it, and yet are saying, you know, this is no.
我绝不会用有孩子的生活去交换没有孩子的生活。
I I would not trade this life for a life without my kids.
所以我想让听众们牢牢记住这个区别。
So this is a distinction that I'd like listeners to really keep top of mind.
这种区别在于：一种快乐的生活，与一种充满快乐时刻但最终感觉充实或有意义的生活。
This distinction between a happy life versus Or a life filled with happy moments and a life that feels fulfilling or meaningful at the end of it.
这实际上让我想起了七八年前——不管多久以前——我和你讨论过的一个话题，当时我们谈到了阿喀琉斯和《阿喀琉斯之歌》，也就是《伊利亚特》。
And actually this reminds me of part of the discussion you and I had seven or eight years ago, however long it was, where we talked about Achilles and the song of Achilles, which was the Iliad.
你提到他曾向他的凡人母亲倾诉，毕竟他是个半神。
And you mentioned that he had spoken to his mortal mother because of course he was demigod.
他是神与凡人女子所生的孩子。
He was a child of a God and of a mortal woman.
他的母亲告诉他，他可以选择过一种漫长而平凡的生活，或者短暂而非凡的生活。
His mother told him that he could either have a long and ordinary life or a short and extraordinary one.
他更倾向于选择短暂而非凡的人生。
And he preferred the short and extraordinary one.
我认为这是一种非常普遍的冲动。
I think that this is a very common impulse.
尤其是在你所提到的四种原型中的第一种——英雄型奋斗者中，这种冲动尤为明显。
And certainly among heroic strivers who are the first of the four archetypes that you talk about.
那我们来谈谈这个。
So let's go there.
你提到过一个叫做‘重要性地图’的东西，书中还有一张图具体展示了它。
You have this thing you described as the mattering map and there's a graphic in the book which actually lays it out.
这四种原型各自代表了‘渴望之海’中的一个大陆。
Each of these four archetypes is represented as a continent within the sea of longing.
渴望又来了。
There goes longing again.
第一个是英雄型奋斗者。
The first one was the heroic striver.
我觉得，这个 archetype 最能体现我一直以来渴望在生活中找到意义的方式。
Felt I mean, this was the one that I felt captured so much of how I've sort of longed to be meaningful in my own life.
但我身上也有一些部分，也能在其他几种 archetype 中找到。
But there are parts of me that I find in some of these other ones as well.
我认为这对每个人来说大概都是如此。
And I think that's probably true for everyone.
这四个 archetype 是什么？
What are these four archetypes?
我们先从英雄奋斗者开始吧。
And let's start with the heroic striver one first.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们有这个疯狂的部分，然后试图安抚它。
So we have this this loony, and we try to appease it.
英雄奋斗者是指那些心中怀有某种卓越标准的人，这些标准可以是智力上的、艺术上的、体能上的、道德上的，或者这些的某种组合。
And the heroic strivers are are people who have in mind certain standards of excellence, and they can be intellectual, artistic, athletic, or ethical, or some combination of these.
这不是一个非此即彼的问题。
It's not not an eitheror.
他们需要感到自己已经达到了这些标准，或者正在朝着达到这些标准的方向前进。
And they need to feel that they have met these standards or are on their way to meeting these standards.
这是一个长期的过程。
It's a long term thing.
所有这些试图安抚我们对意义渴望的方式，都是长期的。
All of these ways of trying to appease our longing to man are long term.
但正是这些，才让他们感到自己在茁壮成长，正在朝着这些卓越标准取得进展。
But that's what it takes for them to feel like they're flourishing, that they are making progress in meeting these standards of excellence.
实际上，有一些人格心理学理论，我用它们来解释这些不同的方式，这些意义地图上的不同领域。
And it's really there's a some personality psychology theories that I use to try to explain these different ways, these different continents of the mattering map.
所以，你知道，这其中确实有扎实的心理学依据。
And so so, you know, so there's some real psychology behind this.
但我要说，在我几十年与人交谈的经历中，从未遇到过任何人完全无法归入这四种策略中的某一种。
But I have to say, in my decades of talking to people, I've never found anybody who doesn't fit somewhere into these four strategies.
在学术界或作家圈子里，大多数人都是英雄式的奋斗者，他们为自己设定了某些卓越标准，并必须感受到自己正在向这些标准迈进。
And in academia or also in the world of writers, most of them are heroic strivers, you know, that they have some standards of excellence for themselves that they have to feel that they are making progress towards.
我讲过一些非常著名作家的故事，他们获得了所有可能的赞誉和奖项，却依然不觉得自己达到了自己的卓越标准。
And and I tell stories of, you know, some very, very famous writers who got all of the applause, all of the prizes you can possibly want, and yet don't feel like they have met their own standards of excellence.
约翰·贝里曼，这位二十世纪非常重要的诗人，最终选择了自杀。
And John Berryman is somebody the poet John Berryman, a very, very important poet of the twentieth century, ends up killing himself.
对吧？
Right?
他的照片还登上了《生活》杂志的封面。
And so it was on the cover of Life magazine.
你知道，他获得了所有可能赢得的奖项，作为一位自白派诗人极具影响力，但即便如此。
You know, he's got every every prize you can possibly won produced, was very, very influential as a confessional poet, and yet.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这种英雄式的奋斗者追求的并不是名声。
So that this is you know, heroic strivers are not after fame.
他们追求的是自己内心的卓越标准。
They're after their own internal standards of excellence.
做一个英雄式的奋斗者非常艰难。
It's very hard to be a heroic striver.
我还想讲一个我非常熟悉的人的故事。
I also tell the story of someone who I knew very well.
他已经去世了。
He's passed away.
他也是一个诗人，是我的朋友，但没人知道他是诗人。
He was also a poet, and he was a friend, and nobody knew he was a poet.
他从那些评判者那里得到了太多否定。
He had gotten so many downward thumbs from the mattering adjudicators.
他因为作品无法出版，最终决定放弃，而我们都不知道他一直在默默创作、打磨诗歌，实际上，直到去世前，他都在不断成长为一位更加卓越的艺术家。
He couldn't get his stuff published that he just decided to give it up, and none of us knew that he was constantly working and perfecting his poetry and was, in fact, becoming an ever more superb artist until he died.
他的伴侣，我挚友梅根·马歇尔——一位杰出的作家——发现了这些诗作和其中倾注的全部心血，这让我深刻体会到，他生命中的进步并不依赖于他人的认可。
And his partner, my good friend, Megan Marshall, a wonderful writer in her on her own account, discovered these poems and all of the work that had gone into them, which really to me brought home its to feel like he was making progress in his life didn't depend on other people approving of him.
这是一种内在的追求，是英雄式奋斗者的极端例子。
It was an internal thing, and an extreme example of a heroic striver.
是的。
Yeah.
书中有一句很美的话，他说：‘梅根，也许我最擅长的就是爱你。’
There's a beautiful line in the book where he says that, Megan, maybe the thing I'm best at is loving you.
是的。
Yeah.
当她——我不记得是怎么提到这个的。
When she I don't remember how it came up.
是的。
Yeah.
但对他来说，那时这已经足够了。
But essentially that that was enough for him at that time.
这对他来说已经足够了。
That was enough for him.
是的。
Yeah.
所以她成了他生命中最重要的事。
So it was like she became his mattering project.
没错。
Exactly.
这有时可能很危险，取决于你具体指的是谁。
Which can be dangerous sometimes depending on who you're Exactly.
你知道的。
You know?
而且在彼此相遇后，她蓬勃发展起来，你知道吗？
And she flourished under you know, they they found each other quite you know?
嗯，他们大学时曾是恋人，后来各自结婚，再后来重新联系上了。
Well, they had been lovers in college, and then they went off, married other people, and then she they reconnected.
她的事业，她的写作事业——她是一位传记作家。
And and she her career, her writing career she's a biographer.
她获得过普利策奖，在他的关注下真正取得了长足发展。
She's won a Pulitzer Prize, and she really flourished under his attention.
我当时就想，哦，这是他的重要项目。
And I thought, oh, this is his mattering project.
梅根·马歇尔的事业就是他的重要项目。
Meghan Marshall's career is his mattering project.
但不，并不是这样。
But no, it wasn't.
他的诗歌创作才是，两者都是。
His own poetry was really it was both.
两者都是。
It was both.
在进入第二小时之前，我想再谈一件事，关于英雄式的奋斗者。
So let's I want to talk about one more thing with respect to heroic strivers before we move to the second hour.
这也会让我们有机会讨论，当一个人的自我监控项目进展不顺，或觉得自己在人生中没有达到应有位置时，抑郁情绪是如何出现的——这一点我深有共鸣，因为我自己也
And it'll also give us an opportunity to discuss the appearance of depression when sort of one's monitoring project isn't going well or we aren't where we feel like we should be in life, which is something I can really relate to as I
说，我从我的一些事情中
said, Me from something from my
也是。
too.
还有另一件事，现在我想提一下，也许我们稍后有机会探讨，或者你可以在回答过程中提及：当我们拥有一个重要的目标时，比如我们是一个英雄式的奋斗者，把生活围绕着成为某人、成为某种人或实现某个目标来构建，而当我们真的实现了，有时反而会陷入抑郁，因为此时你失去了方向感。
Something else also, to mention now and maybe we'll have a chance to explore or you can address it in the course of your answer, which is that what also feels to be true is that when we have a mattering project, let's say we're a heroic striver and we sort of build our lives around becoming something, someone or achieving something, and then we get it, sometimes that creates depression because now you're left without a sense of purpose.
所以这也是我想强调的一点，随着我们继续推进这一部分的讨论。
So that's something also I just wanted to highlight it as we sort of proceed through this part of the discussion.
但我非常享受书中你提到的威廉·詹姆斯和他妹妹爱丽丝·詹姆斯这一对比部分，这两位你有趣地都将他们视为英雄式的奋斗者，威廉·詹姆斯是心理学著名的奠基人。
But I really enjoyed the section of the book where you have this dichotomy of William James, the famous sort of father of psychology, and his sister Alice James, both of whom you interestingly enough identify as heroic strivers.
威廉·詹姆斯显然符合这一身份，但爱丽丝·詹姆斯起初看起来并不明显。
Now, it's obvious in the case of William why he would qualify, but it's not so obvious in the case of Alice, at least initially.
你能为我们听众深入剖析一下这个例子吗？
Can you explore this example for our audience?
你为什么选择这个例子？
Why you chose it?
威廉·詹姆斯的性格类型和人生经历能告诉我们这种原型通常是什么样子，而爱丽丝的抑郁则是一个有趣的例子。
What William James, his personality type, his life history can tell us about what this archetype typically looks like, and then the interesting example of Alice and her depression.
是的。
Yeah.
这简直就像一个对照实验，比较这两个人。
It's almost like almost like a controlled experiment comparing those those two.
他们家族非同寻常。
And it was an extraordinary family.
这个家族还包括小说家亨利·詹姆斯，这位伟大的小说家，以及威廉·詹姆斯。
It also included the novelist, Henry James, the great novelist, and William James.
我一直对他非常感兴趣，因为他既是哲学家又是心理学家。
I mean, I've always been terrifically interested in him because he's both a philosopher and a psychologist.
在那个时代，这种区分本没有必要。
Back when that distinction wouldn't have needed to be made.
是的。
Yeah.
是的
Yep.
没错
That's right.
对
Yeah.
非常重要的心理学家
Very, very important psychologist.
我认为他的贡献被弗洛伊德的影响盖过了，他们的态度非常不同
And I think I think his his his contributions have been overpowered by Freud's example, and they have a very different attitude.
弗洛伊德把心理学医学化了，而詹姆斯则抵制这种做法
Freud kind of medicalized psychology, and James resisted that.
他从存在主义的角度看待心理学，正是我在这里所呈现的那种视角
He saw it in sort of existential terms, very much the kind of terms that I that I present here.
但无论如何，正如你已经能感受到的，他是个极其有天赋的人
But in any case, he was as you can already I mean, he was a a an incredibly gifted person.
他不仅是一位思想家，一位伟大的思想家，一位极具原创性、令人震惊的原创思想家，还是一位出色的作家。
He was not only a thinker, a great thinker, an an original startlingly original thinker, terrific writer.
他的心理学原理在某些时候读起来就像一部小说。
His principles of psychology read like a novel at at at times.
但他还写了《宗教经验种种》。
But he as well as the varieties of religious experience.
但他是一位艺术家。
But he was an artist.
他最初的想法是成为一名艺术家。
He was a that was his first thought was to be an artist.
他是一位非常非常出色的画家或速写者。
He was a very, very good painter or a sketcher.
因此，他拥有多种才能，而且在二十多岁时还饱受严重的临床抑郁症折磨。
So he had multiple talents, and he also suffered from a debilitating clinical depression in his early twenties.
这真的很有意思。
And that is really interesting.
你知道，他曾在某封信中向朋友道歉，说自己没能回信，因为好几个月都提不起力气连一封信都写不了。
He, you know, describes you know, he describes in some letter apologizing to a friend for not answering the letter, but he has not been able to get up the energy for months at a time to even answer a letter.
你知道，他曾卧床不起，反复思考自杀。
You know, he lay prone in his bed contemplating suicide.
他有一个非常支持他的家庭。
He had a wonderfully supportive family.
事实上，他从他那位非常特别的父亲那里得到了极大的关注。
In fact, he got a tremendous amount of attention from his very, very interesting father.
他是长子，威廉·詹姆斯，可他却连正常生活都难以继续。
He was the eldest born, William James, and yet here he was, not able to get on with his life.
直到他决定说：‘我自由意志的第一步，就是相信自由意志存在’，他打算仅凭意志力把自己拉起来。
And until he decided, he said, my first act of free will will be to believe in free will, that he was going to just pull himself up by sheer will.
他决定要相信生命值得活下去，并尽全力积蓄能量，赋予生命某种意义，你知道的。
He was going to decide that life was worth living and to garner as much energy as he could in putting it to some purpose, you know.
顺便问一下，到这个时候，他是不是已经拥有了？
And so he already had, by the way, did he at this point?
我觉得他是的。
I think he yes.
他当时已经获得了医学学位，但他不想行医。
He already had a medical degree, but he didn't wanna practice medicine.
我的意思是，他简直就是个多才多艺的人。
I mean, he was just this multitalent.
他需要决定的，是我所说的‘意义工程’，也就是他会英勇地去追求，以满足自己渴望被重视的需求。
What he needed to decide on was what I call a mattering project, you know, that this was going to be the thing that he would heroically try to appease his own need to matter by pursuing.
我的意思是，你不能到处分散精力。
I mean, you can't be all over the place.
你必须有一个目标。
You've got to have a purpose.
你必须有一个方向。
You've got to have a goal.
而这就是他决定去做的事，当他投身心理学研究的时候。
And that's what he decided to do, you know, when he he went into studying psychology.
那就是他和哲学的交集。
That's where he and philosophy.
是的。
Yeah.
他最初其实是一位哲学家。
He was first actually a philosopher.
这特别困难吗？
Is that especially difficult?
换句话说，作为一个英雄式的奋斗者，当你没有既定道路时，这特别困难吗？
In other words, being a heroic striver, is that especially difficult when you don't have a set path?
当你是一个企业家，或者身处一个尚不存在的新研究领域的前沿时。
When you're, I don't know, an entrepreneur or someone at the frontier of a new field of study that doesn't exist.
对。
Yeah.
对于这些人来说，有什么特别痛苦的地方吗？
Is there something especially painful about for those people?
再说一遍，我问你的是，从主观上讲，我们可以通过个人经历来回答这个问题，但我好奇的是，你究竟在多大程度上从客观角度研究过这一点？也就是说，走这条路是否特别困难？
Again, I'm asking you to the I mean, subjectively we can answer this question anecdotally, but I'm curious to what degree you've actually looked into it objectively, which is like, is there something uniquely difficult about going through that path?
是的。
Yeah.
那种你必须自己创造的、充满不确定性的模糊路径。
That sort of not well defined path that you have to create for yourself because it's so full of doubt.
因为你会无数次地问自己：我到底在做什么？
Because there's so many instances in which you can say, What am I doing?
我彻底失败了。
I'm a total failure.
我对父母来说是个彻底的失望。
I'm a total disappointment to my parents.
我上了医学院，可看看现在的我。
I went to medical school and look at me here.
我根本不想行医。
I don't even want to practice medicine.
我一无是处。
I'm nothing.
我是个废物。
I'm garbage.
我不该活着。
I shouldn't live.
我早就该死了。
I should be dead.
也许我该自杀。
Maybe I should kill myself.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么我说，每个人的情况差异如此之大。
So that's why I say when you that it varies so much individually.
其中一个关键变量是你的意义项目是什么。
And one of the big variables is what your mattering project is.
如果这个项目是全新的，或者是你没有接受过训练的，甚至违背了父母对你的期望——而他的父亲非常希望他成为一名科学家。
And if it's something really new and or something that you weren't trained for, something that goes against what your parents wanted from you, and his father very much wanted him to be a man of science.
那是他父亲的想法，他是一位神学家，持有某种理论。
That was the thing that his father, who was a theologian and had this theory.
他是个斯威登堡派信徒，如果你知道这是什么意思的话。
He was a Swedenborgian, if you know what that is.
而且，你知道，他父亲以及整个家庭的归属感本能都极其强烈、英勇。
And, you know, his father was also the whole family, their whole mattering instincts were were were so intense heroically.
他一定给儿子施加了巨大的压力，迫使儿子成为实现他自己意义项目的媒介。
And he had put so much he must have put so much pressure on his son to effectively be conduit through which he could actualize his own mattering project.
没错。
Exactly.
让我来说，一、二、三、四、五个孩子。
And there were let me say, one, two, three, four, five children.
而两个最小的儿子，父亲把所有的关注都放在了两个长子身上，而不是两个幼子或女儿身上，他们以自己的方式遭受了痛苦。
And the the two youngest sons, the father put all the sort of mattering attention on his two eldest sons, not on the two youngest sons or on the daughter, and they suffered in their own way.
你知道，就像那位提到厨房水龙头的母亲所说，家庭中的整个计划、整个模式——你的兄弟姐妹比你获得更多关注——都是关于你在世界上有多重要的反馈。
You know, that's one of the as as that mother who with the with the kitchen faucet attested, you know, that the whole plan in the family, the whole model of the family, are your siblings getting much more attention than you are, is feedback about how much you matter in the world.
但无论如何，是的，回到你的问题，这在很大程度上取决于你的意义项目。
So but in any case, yeah, to go back to your it depends so much on the mattering project.
而詹姆斯当时正踏上一条他甚至觉得自己并不具备资格去走的道路。
And here was James setting out on something that he didn't even feel that he was qualified to do.
对他而言，如何安置自己巨大的能量和非凡的才能，是一个真正的难题。
And it was a real problem to him where to put his enormous energy and his enormous talent.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且它不能随便流向任何地方。
And it can't just go anywhere.
它必须流向一个感觉对的地方。
It's gotta go somewhere that feels right.
没错。
Exactly.
它必须与某种内在的渴望和意义感相一致。
It's gotta be aligned with some inner sense of longing, of meaning
就是这样。
That's it.
我是谁。
Who I am.
这其实就是自我实现的过程。
It's like the pros it's really the process of self actualization.
对一些人来说，这比其他人要痛苦得多，尤其是当你在开辟自己的道路时。
And for some, that is just much more painful than for others, especially if you're forging your own path.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
但他确实做到了。
But he did.
你知道，他确实做到了。
You know, he did.
他一直对忧郁、对别人的抑郁和忧郁非常敏感。
He was always very, very sensitive to melancholy, you know, to depression and melancholy of others.
这很有趣。
And it's interesting.
在他的日记中， somewhere 他写道，他说忧郁能带来更真实的价值。
There's somewhere in his journal where he writes, he says melancholy gives the truer values.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
我的意思是，如果你不得不与这种充满对自身存在意义怀疑的气质抗争，某种程度上，这会让你对生活中每个人都必须做出的信念一跃保持高度警觉。
I mean, if you have to sort of battle against this kind of temperament that is filled with the doubts about your objective mattering, In some sense, that keeps you very alive to the leap of faith that we all have to make in getting on with our lives.
所以，他也是一个非常出色的伦理思想家，这并不令人意外。
So, you know, it's not surprising that he he was also a a very good ethical thinker.
但我想我们或许可以转到他妹妹了，因为她也有着同样的性格特质。
But I think maybe we can move on to his sister now because she had so much of the same temperament.
但因为她是一位维多利亚时代的女性，我的意思是，他们主要是十九世纪的人物。
But because she was a Victorian woman, I mean, they were, you know, they were mainly figures of the nineteenth century.
詹姆斯于1910年去世。
James died in 1910.
她没有出口。
She had no outlet.
她没有渠道释放自己的智慧、才华和英雄般的渴望。
She had no outlet for her intelligence, her talent, her heroic longing.
她一生都是病人。
And she was an invalid for her whole life.
你知道，她花了大量时间陷入歇斯底里。
You know, she spent a great deal of time being hysterical.
你知道，医生们其实帮不了她。
You know, the doctors couldn't really help her.
她是个病人，但要明确的是，她之所以成为病人，是因为某些心理疾病，是的，那些疾病。
She was a But to be clear, she was an invalid because of certain psychological Yeah, illnesses she yeah.
但她
But she
真的完全丧失了行动能力。
was really incapacitated.
而只有在她去世后，她的日记被发现，人们才意识到她拥有多么巨大的才华，这种对意识的敏锐洞察力，正是威廉·詹姆斯和亨利·詹姆斯——那位伟大的小说家——所具备的。
And she It was only after she died and her journal was discovered that one could see the enormous talent she had, this heightened talent for of consciousness that both William James and Henry James, you know, the great novelist had.
你知道，他们都能以极强的表达力描绘出主观体验的种种细微差别，我们感受中的各种不同层次，威廉和亨利都充分利用了这一点。
You know, all of these shades of of of being able to describe with an intense ability of expression the shades of subjectivity, the differences in in what we feel that both William and and Henry used to great purpose.
威廉在心理学研究中运用了这些，亨利则在文学创作和艺术追求中运用了它们，而她却一无所有。
William in his psychological pursuits and Henry in his novelist, in his artistic pursuits, and she had nothing.
她什么都没有。
She had nothing.
因此，在她生命中短暂的一段时期，她参与了一个女性自我教育项目，一个为女性提供的阅读计划，那时她的癔症症状消失了。
And so it was just a brief period in her life when she was involved with a program for women's self education, a reading program for women's self education, where she cursed her hysterical symptoms disappeared.
所以，无论如何，这还挺有意思的，正如我所说的，这几乎像一个受控实验。
And so anyway, it's just sort of interesting, almost as I say, it's almost a controlled experiment.
两个人有着非常相似的性格，都需要能让他们感到自己在这个世界上有所价值的事业。
Two people with very similar temperaments who needed mattering projects that would make them feel like they mattered in the world.
威廉·詹姆斯去世时，收到的悼念文章我有一整本书，都是关于他去世时的悼念。
When William James died, the tributes that came in I have an entire book of tributes to William James on the occasion of his death.
而爱丽丝·詹姆斯去世时，除了她生活中亲近的人，几乎没人知道这件事。
Whereas, you know, Alice James died and nobody knew about it except the people who were in her lives in her life, rather.
所以我还有一些关于抑郁症的问题想进一步探讨，我想以爱丽丝为切入点。
So I have a few more questions to explore on the subject of depression, I want to use Alice as a jumping off point.
雷贝卡，我打算把这部分对话留到第二小时再谈。
I'm going to hold that part of the conversation for the second hour, Rebecca.
好的。
Sure.
我们还会探讨另外三种原型：社交型、竞争型和超越型。
Where we're going to also explore the other three archetypes, which are socializers, competitors, and transcenders.
竞争者原型的一个经典极端例子是迈克尔·乔丹，如果你看过他在入选NBA名人堂时的演讲，他会描述自己对竞争的强烈需求是如何成为他人生的核心驱动力的。
A classic example of an extreme version of the competitor archetype is Michael Jordan, who if you ever watched his speech that he delivered when he was being inducted into the NBA Hall of Fame, he describes his deep need to compete as the driving force in his life.
超越者，我会想到像拉姆·达斯这样的人。
Transcenders, I think of someone like Ram Dass.
社交者，很难说清楚。
Socializers, it's hard to tell.
是那种卡戴珊类型的人吗？
Is it a Kardashian type person?
我有点拿不准。
I can't quite tell.
你实际上在书中明确区分了亲密型社交者和非亲密型社交者。
Mean, you actually make a point in the book to distinguish between intimacy versus non intimacy socializers.
是的。
Yes.
所以这种类型还有不同的变体。
So there are different flavors of this.
但我们将在第二小时深入探讨所有这些内容，很好。
But we're going get into all of that in the second hour, Great.
对于刚接触本节目的新听众，Hidden Forces 由听众支持。
For anyone new to the program, Hidden Forces is listener supported.
我们不接受广告商或商业赞助。
We don't accept advertisers or commercial sponsors.
整个节目完全由像您这样的听众资助。
The entire show is funded from top to bottom by listeners like you.
如果您想收听今天与丽贝卡对话的第二小时，请前往 hiddenforces.io/subscribe，注册我们的三个内容等级之一。
If you want to access the second hour of today's conversation with Rebecca, head over to hiddenforces.iosubscribe and sign up to one of our three content tiers.
所有订阅者均可访问我们的高级播客源，您可以通过最喜欢的播客应用在移动设备上收听今天对话的其余部分，就像您现在收听这一集一样。
All subscribers gain access to our premium feed, which you can use to listen to the rest of today's conversation on your mobile device using your favorite podcast app, just like you're listening to this episode right now.
丽贝卡，请稍等。
Rebecca, stick around.
我们将把今天对话的第二小时转移到高级播客源。
We're going to move the second hour of our conversation onto the premium feed.
如果你想收听今天对话的其余部分，请前往 hiddenforces.iosubscribe 并加入我们的高级频道。
If you want to listen in on the rest of today's conversation, head over to hiddenforces.iosubscribe and join our premium feed.
如果你想参与对话并成为 Hidden Forces 智囊社区的成员，也可以通过我们的订阅页面完成。
If you want to join in on the conversation and become a member of the Hidden Forces Genius Community, you can also do that through our subscriber page.
本期节目由我制作，由 Stylianos Nicolaou 编辑。
Today's episode was produced by me and edited by Stylianos Nicolaou.
如需收听更多节目，欢迎访问我们的网站 hiddenforces.io。
For more episodes, you can check out our website at hiddenforces.io.
你可以在 Twitter 上关注我 cofinas，也可以通过邮箱 info hiddenforces 联系我。
You can follow me on Twitter cofinas, and you can email me at info hiddenforces.
Io。
Io.
一如既往，感谢收听。
As always, thanks for listening.
我们下次再见。
We'll see you next time.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。