HoP 012 - 马尔科姆·谢菲尔德论前苏格拉底哲学家

大家好，欢迎收听《无间隙哲学史》，本节目由伦敦国王学院和利弗休姆信托基金支持播出。

Hi, and welcome to the History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, brought to you with the support of King's College London and the Leverhulme Trust.

今天，我请来了一位嘉宾，我们要聊聊前苏格拉底哲学家。

Today, I have another guest to interview, and we're going to be talking about the Presocratics.

本周的嘉宾是剑桥大学的马尔科姆·谢菲尔德教授。

My guest this week is Professor Malcolm Schofield of Cambridge University.

嗨，马尔科姆，谢谢你来参加。

Hi Malcolm, thank you for coming.

很高兴。

Pleasure.

我们之前已经讲过很多前苏格拉底哲学家，甚至可以说全都讲过了，所以这期只是做个总结。

We've already covered a lot of the Presocratics or really all the Presocratics in previous episodes, so this episode is just to wrap things up.

我想先问问你关于最早的前苏格拉底哲学家——米利都学派的一些情况。

I thought I might start by asking you a little bit about the very first presocratics, the mylesions.

这里自然会冒出一个问题：米利都学派的人到底有什么共同点？

One question that arises here, I suppose, is what do the mylesions all have in common?

如果我们想想泰勒斯、阿那克西曼德和阿那克西美尼，你觉得他们之间有没有什么共同特点，足以让他们构成一个统一的学派，甚至说是早期的哲学传统？

If we think about Thales, Anaximander, and Anaximenes, do you think that there's one feature or several features which binds them together and makes them a school of free Socratic philosophy?

我觉得他们至少有两三个共同点。

Well, I think there are two or three features that unite them.

不妨先从泰勒斯和阿那克西曼德说起。

Perhaps start with Thales and Anaximander.

据说泰勒斯是个极具创造力的实践型人物，他用过一些基础的数学和几何知识来做计算，甚至成功预测了一次日食。

One thing that is reported about Thales is that he was an enormously inventive practical person, and he's supposed for example to have used elementary mathematics, elementary geometry to make calculations and indeed to have accurately more or less predicted an eclipse.

阿那克西曼德也热衷于发明各种工具，同样对数学很感兴趣。

Anaximander likewise seems to have been keen on inventing gadgets, and he too is interested in the mathematical.

据说他是第一个画出世界地图的希腊人。

He's he's said to have been the first Greek ever to draw a map of the world.

那张地图虽然原始，但应该是用圆规画出来的。

It seems to have been a a primitive map constructed with compasses.

地图上显示地球是圆的，地中海在正中央，欧洲在上面，非洲在下面，亚洲在右边——至少看起来是这样。

So the the world is round or the earth is round, and the Mediterranean's at the center, and you've got Europe above and and Africa below and Asia on the right, at least so it seems.

所以这是其中一点。

So that's one thing.

他们这些人，可以说有一种技术型的思维方式。

They they they were people who had, if you like, a sort of technological cast of mind.

第二点是，他们都试图用纯粹自然主义的方式，来解释宇宙为何是如今这个样子。

Second thing that seems to be true of them is that they were trying to generate an explanation of how the physical cosmos is the way it is, that was couched entirely in naturalistic terms.

荷马和赫西俄德史诗里那些神祇、命运、冥界神话之类的解释框架，全都消失了。

The whole array of gods and goddesses, the fates, the mythology of the underworld and so forth that you find in the epic poets Homer and Hesiod, and you find in them as a framework for explanation of why the cosmos is, that's all gone.

那您是否认为，正是这种自然主义的倾向，真正把前苏格拉底哲学家和之前以及他们同时代的其他文化产物区分开来了？

And would you say that that's what really differentiates the Presocratic philosophers from other cultural productions, as it were, that happened before the Presocratics and during the Presocratics' own lifetimes, that they were more naturalistic?

当然，在他们生活的时代，我们手头能接触到的希腊 contemporaneous 材料非常少。

Well, of course, in their own lifetime we have very little other contemporary Greek material.

不过我们有来自近东和埃及等地的材料，那些巴比伦和埃及的叙事明显更强调神明，更直接地以神学为框架。

There is the material from the Near East and from Egypt and so forth, and yes, what we have of Babylonian Egyptian narratives much more theistic, explicitly theistic.

这并不是说泰勒斯、阿那克西曼德和阿那克西美尼不信神——他们确实信，但他们的神更接近后来哲学家所说的‘宇宙之神’，而不是当时地中海和近东地区普遍存在的那种传统希腊多神体系。

Not that Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes didn't believe in deities, they clearly did, but their deities are more like, to use a much later phrase, the god of all the philosophers, than the traditional Greek, the traditional pantheon or the traditional polytheism that you find throughout the Mediterranean and Near East in this period.

真正把这一点讲得最清楚的，是克塞诺芬尼。

And it's really Xenophanes who really brings that point across most clearly.

没错，克塞诺芬尼是个特别有意思的人物。

Yes, Xenophanes is fascinating character.

他也和其他人一样，活动在如今土耳其的东海岸地区。

He's also someone who works on the what is now the Eastern Seaboard of Turkey, as they all did.

他的家乡科洛丰离米利都只有几公里远，而米利都学派正是在那里活动的。

His home city Colophon was only a few kilometers away from Miletus, where where the my leads the Milesians worked.

他与米利都学派的关系非常特别。

And he stands in a very interesting relationship to the the Milesians.

他显然对自然哲学非常了解，事实上，我们今天所知的这段时期最精彩的物理推测，很多都来自克塞诺芬尼。

He was clearly knowledgeable about natural philosophy, and indeed some of the most interesting things we know about physical speculation from this period is Xenophanes.

比如，他似乎已经意识到化石可能意味着什么。

For example, he seems to have been aware of what fossil evidence might be.

那些贝类化石。

The shellfish.

贝类、月桂叶，他用大地逐渐干涸的理论来解释这些现象，这和阿那克西曼德记载的一些观点不谋而合。

The shellfish, yes, the bay leaf, and to construct it on that theory about the way that the earth is gradually drying out, and that maps onto some concerns that are documented for Anaximander.

他确实提供了物理性的解释，说明为什么大地如此、天空为何如此等等。

And he certainly has physical explanations of why the earth is as it is, why the heavens are as they are and so on.

在某些方面，他的理论看起来不如米利都学派那么精细，这也让人怀疑他是不是带点讽刺的意味。

In some ways it doesn't seem as sophisticated as we can document for the Milesians, and there's a question as to whether there was an element of satire in it.

他常说，万物都是云做的——这和米利都学派用热与湿等元素解释自然的方式其实很相似。

As an often he said, well everything's made of clouds, and that is not unlike the physical explanations in terms of heat and moisture and so forth that the Milesians invoked.

但你难免会怀疑，他说话时是不是在开玩笑。

But you can't help suspecting that he perhaps had his tongue in his cheek a bit.

但色诺芬尼有意思的地方在于，他明确关注神学，而且他的思考方式明显和米利都学派不同。

But Xenophony is interesting because he is explicitly concerned with theology, and indeed he seems to operate in a different mode from the Milesians.

米利都学派那些写过东西的人——几乎可以肯定阿那克西曼德和阿那克西美尼都写过书——他们的著作都是用散文叙述世界如何起源、如何演化的。

Those of the Milesians who wrote anything, and it seems almost certain that Anaximander and Anaximenes did write books, they wrote their books as narratives in prose of how the world began and how it developed.

而色诺芬尼则是用诗歌的形式来写作。

In Xenophony's case, he writes verse.

事实上，他是一位四处游历的诗人表演者，正如他自己所说，走遍了希腊世界。

In fact, he's a poetic performer who travels, as he says, the Greek world.

事实上，早年之后，他似乎搬到了希腊西部，主要是南意大利。

Indeed, after his early years, he seems to move to the West Of Greece, to South Italy mainly.

去宴会上表演，这么说吧。

To perform at banquets, as it were.

去宴会上表演，而且我们确实保留了他写的一些诗，讲的是什么样的宴会才得体，该举行哪些宗教仪式，该唱什么样的歌。

To perform at banquets, and indeed we have some of the poems he wrote about what a proper banquet should be like, and what the right religious rituals should be, what the right songs you could sing, you should sing are.

他非常反对奢华的肉食献祭，也反对歌颂神与巨人之间大战的曲目。

He seems to be very much against elaborate meat sacrifices and songs of gods and giants battling against each other.

但有趣的是，他对传统神学提出了批评。

But he has, very interestingly, a critique of traditional theology.

他指责荷马和赫西俄德把神人化，甚至把人类最恶劣的特质都安在了神身上。

Homer and Hesiod are accused of anthropomorphism and indeed of attributing to God's the worst features of humankind.

他通过一种反事实的思维方式，逐步展开这种批评。

And he develops this critique by a sort of counterfactual line of thought.

他说，如果狮子会画神，那它们画出来的神肯定都是狮子脸。

He says, if lions draw their gods, then they would draw lion faced Gods.

就像埃塞俄比亚人画的神，都是黑皮肤、塌鼻子的样子。

Gods, just as the Ethiopians draw devised gods who have black faces and snub nosed.

关于他们创作的文本类型——比如书籍而非诗歌——这让我想到另一个问题：你觉得前苏格拉底哲学家们当时心里想着的听众是谁？

That issue about the kind of text that they produce, so books as opposed to poetry, brings me to something else I was going to ask you, which is do you think we can say very much about who the Presocratics thought they were talking to?

比如，色诺芬尼至少有时候是在宴会上表演的，但赫拉克利特、巴门尼德的诗，还有米利都学派的人，你有没有发现什么线索能告诉我们，他们到底想对谁说话？谁是他们预期的读者？

I mean, Xenophanes may have been performing at banquets at least some of the time, but for example Heraclitus or even the poem of Parmenides or for that matter, the Milesians, do you think there's any sign that could tell us who they were talking to and who they expected to be able to read their books?

还是说，我们只能靠猜测？

Or do we just have to guess about that?

嗯，关于前苏格拉底哲学家的很多事情，其实都差不多是猜测罢了。

Well, like so much to do with the Presocratics, is mostly guesswork I think.

有相当多的理由相信，泰勒斯尤其是一位公众人物。

There is quite a lot of reason to think that Thales in particular was a public figure.

据说他曾提出过一个构想，让爱琴海东岸所有希腊城邦联合起来，共同对抗波斯的统治。

I mean he's supposed to have generated ideas for a conference of all the Greek states on the Eastern Seaboard to make common cause together against the Persian overlord.

古希腊哲学界的伍德罗·威尔逊。

The Woodrow Wilson of Presocratic Philosophy.

这么说也对。

You could say so, yes.

我觉得泰勒斯确实扮演了公众角色，我确信他会对任何愿意听他讲话的人侃侃而谈，所以我们没必要觉得他只写给一小群知识分子看。

And so I think the Thales had a public role and I'm quite sure that he would talk authoritatively to anybody who wanted to listen to him so I don't think we have to think that he was writing only for a small coterie of intellectuals.

‘ axiomatter ’和‘ axiom ’这两个词说起来有点拗口，但古希腊的城市本身就不大，所以尽管米利都似乎形成了某种学派，我们也不能把它当成大学来看待。

An axiomatter and axiom is harder to say but Greek cities weren't very big places and so I think that even though there does seem to have been a kind of school develops of Miletus, mustn't think of it as a university, I think.

更应该把他们看作公共知识分子。

Must think much more in terms of public intellectuals.

这意味着，前苏格拉底哲学家们的活动方式，可能更接近苏格拉底在集市上跟人聊天的样子，赫拉克利特那些谜语式的格言，也许本来就是当众说出来的。

And that means that actually the Presocratics may have been operating in a mode maybe more like Socrates actually speaking to people in the marketplace as it were and maybe some of Heraclitus' riddles or aphorisms were actually presented to people in that kind of more oral context.

很难想象赫拉克利特主要靠写在纸莎草或别的材料上的文字来传播思想。

It's hard to think that Heraclitus wasn't primarily someone who was operating through oral discourse, not primarily on papal papyrus or whatever it was.

显然他留下过一本书，但他的思想表达方式，确实很像口头讲话的风格。

Mean clearly there was a book but his thoughts do seem the kinds of phrased in the kind of way that oral utterances are phrased.

同样，任何人写诗，都得假设他是为朗诵而写的。

And similarly, well, anybody writes a poem you you you have to assume that they're they're writing it for delivery.

就连巴门尼德也应该是这样，我觉得。

Even even Parmenides, I think.

所以巴门尼德也一定是当众表演的吧？再来一遍真理之路吧，巴门尼德。

So even Parmenides would have been performing the Well, Give us the way of truth again, Parmenides.

关于巴门尼德和他的弟子齐诺在意大利南部伊利亚城作为公众人物的记载，证据相当充分。

Parmenides is is I mean, the evidence about Parmenides and his pupil sidekick Zeno in Ilea in South Italy being public figures is quite good.

我认为《巴门尼德诗篇》是他思想的精华，但很难想象他某天突然闭门不出，多年不与人交流，独自写完就收起来，然后一走了之。

And so I think that the Parmenides prayer must be a distillation of his teaching, but it's it's it's hard to think that he simply retired to his study alone one day after not talking to anybody for years, writing it down, and then shutting the book and leaving it somewhere and going off somewhere else.

这种说法根本站不住脚，你觉得呢？

It's it's not really credible, think.

事实上，在柏拉图的《巴门尼德篇》里，对话一开始就是齐诺刚念完他的书，对吧？

And in fact, in Plato's Parmenides, it looks like the dialogue begins just as Zeno has finished reciting from his book, doesn't it?

所以我理解，这本书就是这么回事。

And so I read that's what the book is about.

没错。

That's right.

我的意思是，这个故事不可能字面上是真的，但它反映了当时思想传播的方式。

I mean, it's a narrative that can't possibly literally be true, but it testifies to is the kind of way in which ideas were spread.

人们会聚在一起，朗读自己的著作。

People would come and read from their books.

巴门尼德无疑是个很好的例子，说明这位哲学家确实有追随者。

And of course Parmenides is a nice example for us of a philosopher who seems actually to have had disciples.

除了芝诺，还有梅利苏斯，这两个人似乎都在发展或捍卫巴门尼德的哲学。

So there's Zeno, obviously, and there's also Melissus, and the two of them seem to have been extending Parmenides' philosophy or defending it in some way.

没错，要搞清楚芝诺和梅利苏斯在哲学上与巴门尼德的关系其实挺难的，他们常被看作是诡辩家。

That's right, mean it's quite hard to understand the relationship of Zeno and Melissus to philosophically that's to say, to Parmenides, and is often portrayed as a sort of sophist.

最近有些研究提出，梅利苏斯的一些论点可能不是为了传达形而上学的真理，而是为了引发争论，而不是让人简单接受。

And Melissus, there's been some interesting work recently that suggests that maybe Melissus, some of his arguments are designed to provoke rather than to as well communicate metaphysical truths that we're simply meant to take on board and accept.

不管这些说法对不对，有一点很清楚：他们所处的环境，就是人们不断争论、交锋的氛围。

Whether that's true or not with respect to xenomolysis, it's very hard to think of them except as operating in a milieu in which people were arguing with each other all the time.

他们是在某种程度上采纳了巴门尼德的观点，是这个意思吗？

And they were sort of adopting a Parmenides type position, is that the idea?

没错，正是这样。

That's right, that's right.

如果这样理解他们是对的，那他们的目的就是激发他人思考，有点像苏格拉底的方式。

The thought is, if this is the right way to think of them, trying to provoke others to thought, in what you might describe as a Socratic sort of way.

这挺有意思，因为之前我采访艾玛·麦凯布谈赫拉克利特时，她也是这么说的——那些看似像笑话或俏皮话的箴言，其实都是在邀请你跟他展开对话。

That's interesting, because when I interviewed Emma McCabe in a previous episode about Heraclitus, this is exactly what she said about him, that a lot of these aphorisms, which seem almost like jokes or one liners, are actually implicit invitations to engage in some kind of dialogue with him.

确实如此，举个赫拉克利特著名的残篇为例，我打算明年夏天在希腊学会的会长演讲里，就拿这句话开场。

Well that is absolutely right, I mean take a famous fragment of Heraclitus, which I'm actually going to, I think, make the opening sally when I give the presidential lecture of the Hellenic Society next summer.

原文是这么说的：人生就像一个玩掷骰子游戏的孩子，孩子就是王国。

The saying goes like this, I own, I own means something like human life, is a child playing around, playing drafts, a child is the kingdom.

他到底想表达什么？谁也说不准。

Now what on earth he meant, who knows?

但可以肯定的是，他就是想让我们去琢磨这句话。

But it was for sure that he meant us to puzzle about it.

这本来就是要引发思考的，确实如此。

It's supposed to be provocative, and it is.

没错，确实如此。

It certainly is.

那我们不妨回头看看 Parmenides 之后的那些哲学家。

So if we can go back to the philosophers who come in the wake of Parmenides.

对。

Mhmm.

你觉得把苏格拉底之前那一代甚至同时代的哲学家，简单看作是试图用不同方式回应 Parmenides、捍卫多元论，是不是太简化了？

Do you think it would be too simplistic to see the generation or two now leading up to the time of Socrates, so not really Presocratics anymore, but even Socrates' contemporaries, do you think it would be too simplistic to think of them as just different attempts to find a way to defend pluralism against Parmenides?

你有德谟克利特，有阿那克萨戈拉，有恩培多克勒，他们全都主张多个本原，要么是无穷多的原子，要么是四大元素，或者万物彼此混合。

You've got the Atomists, you've got Anaxagoras, you've got Empedocles, and they all have multiple principles, either an infinity of atoms or four elements or whatever it might be, the mixture of all things with each other.

这些是不是都在想方设法绕开 Parmenides 的绝对一元论？

Are these all just different ways to outwit Parmenides and avoid his kind of total monism?

我觉得对每个人我们可能得讲不同的故事，因为从我们今天的讨论来看，这些思想家在抽象思考上的观点和方法真是极其多样。

Well I think we probably have to tell a slightly different story with respect to each of them, because I think one thing that our conversation has been bringing out is what an extraordinary diversity of views and approaches to abstract thought these thinkers engage in, we find in these thinkers.

所以我觉得，把这些人笼统地称为‘后巴门尼德多元论者’这个说法大体上是对的，这个词准确抓住了你刚才提到的意思——他们都在以各种方式试图挽救多元论，对抗巴门尼德的单一论及其论证。

And so I think there's something broadly correct in the suggestion that well, used to be called the post Parmenidean pluralists, rather alliteratively, and post Parmenidean encapsulated the idea that you just articulated that in one way or another they're trying to save pluralism from Parmenidean monism and the arguments that Parmenides deployed.

但我认为他们之间确实存在差异。

But I do think there are differences.

其中一个差异就在于我们掌握的证据。

One of the differences is actually the evidence.

关于原子论者的证据，某种程度上比其他人的要丰富得多，但同时也更间接。

The evidence we have for the atomists is in some ways it's a lot more plentiful than for the others, but it's also more indirect.

换句话说，我们手头留存的德谟克利特物理体系的原始片段非常少。

In other words we have very few fragments of the physical system of Democritus.

而后来的作者们在提及原子论者时，都明确表示他们实际上是在提供一种巴门尼德主义的变体。

And the reports that we have by later writers about the atomists are absolutely explicit that they were offering in a way a version of Parmenideanism.

他们承认巴门尼德完全正确：现实是单一的、同质的、完全充实的，没有任何空隙。

They were saying, well, Parmenides is absolutely right that reality is single and it's homogeneous and it's it's full of that reality is a full reality, there are no gaps in it.

他们唯一做出的改变是提出：除了‘存在’之外，还有‘非存在’，也就是我们所说的虚空。

The only variation they really make is to say, but there is not being as well, which then talk of as void, the empty.

从这一点出发，他们就能构建出整个理论。

And from that they can generate their whole theory.

但在现存文献中，他们更像二元论者，而不是多元论者。

But they're not actually in the sources represented so much as pluralists as dualists.

他们是二元论者，认为必须同时存在实在与非实在。

Dualists who say there has to be both reality if you like and unreality.

正是通过这两者之间复杂的互动，才产生了我们在感性世界中看到的多样性。

And it's through a complex interchange between these that you get the diversity that we find in the sensible world.

于是，原子论几乎可以看作是帕门尼德哲学的一种延伸——你反对芝诺，认为存在确实可以与其他存在分离，一个原子与另一个原子彼此独立。

And then atomism could almost just be Parmenides in philosophy where you disagree with Zeno and say that it is possible for being to be separated from other beings so that one atom is separated from another

通过非存在来实现原子的分离。

atom by non being.

这正是你所说的，

That's And you

从而形成一个原子化的宇宙。

get an atomistic universe.

但他们特别强调，这种与现实割裂开来的现实，其实是一个统一的整体。

But they're very keen to insist that the reality that's, as it were, divorced from reality in this way, is a single reality.

从这个角度看，原始文献更倾向于把他们看作二元论者，而不是多元论者——他们区分的是存在与非存在，而不是多种实体。

And that's a sense in which the sources represent them as dualists rather than a dualism between being and non being rather than pluralists.

有意思的是，我们对这个时期的划分方式，居然把他们都叫作前苏格拉底哲学家。

It's interesting, isn't it, that we the way we periodize this period, because we call them all presocratics

对。

Mhmm.

好像希腊哲学里最根本的转折点，就是苏格拉底出现，彻底改变了局面。

As if the really fundamental thing that happens in Greek philosophy is Socrates coming along Yeah.

某种意义上，他重新定义了整个游戏规则。

And changing the game somehow.

我们或许可以换个说法，把这段历史划分为前巴门尼德和后巴门尼德时期。

We could maybe talk instead about pre Parmenides and post Parmenides.

没错。

Yes.

但有没有一种说法，认为苏格拉底确实改变了哲学的方向，让所有前苏格拉底哲学家在某种意义上形成一个整体传统，而苏格拉底的出现终结了它？比如，他更关注伦理学，而不是自然哲学。

But is it is there any sense in which it's legitimate to think of Socrates as having changed philosophies so that all the presocratics in some sense they form a single tradition, which Socrates brings to an end, maybe by being more interested in ethics than natural philosophy, for example?

不过，这种截然的划分总是有点危险，因为像赫拉克利特这样的人，他的思想里其实有很强的伦理倾向。

Well, think these very sharp divisions are always a bit dangerous because it's quite clear that somebody like Heraclitus had a strong ethical strain in his teaching.

就连德谟克利特也有伦理方面的内容。

And even Democritus has ethical progress.

德谟克利特确实也有，但这一点其实牵涉到你的另一个观点——德谟克利特实际上比苏格拉底年轻不少。

Even Democritus, but Democritus, mean that relates to another of your points, namely that Democritus is actually quite a bit younger than Socrates.

没错。

Right.

他大概比苏格拉底小三十岁。

He's probably thirty years younger than Socrates.

要是有人跟你说他是前苏格拉底哲学家，你肯定会觉得意外。

You'd be surprised to be told he was a pre Socratic.

没错。

That's right.

是的，苏格拉底嘛， famously，西塞罗说过，苏格拉底把哲学从天上请了下来，带进了我们的家门。

Yes, think Socrates well, famously, Cicero said Socrates called philosophy down from the heavens and brought it into our homes.

这话有几层意思，一方面是他关注伦理，另一方面呢，也是他特别注重生活本身。我觉得苏格拉底跟之前那些人最大的不同，就是他的对话总是从最平常的生活开始。

And that's true in a couple of ways, think one is the focus on ethics, but also if you like the focus on homeliness, because I think what's absolutely different about Socrates from any of these previous people is the way that Socrates conversations seem to begin with the purely everyday.

比如《理想国》，开篇就是他和一位老者克法洛斯的闲聊，语气很客气。

I mean, the Republic, for example, the beginning of the Republic famously begins with a conversation between him and the old man Kephalus, and it's polite conversation.

但他问的问题，我们平时在礼貌交谈中根本不会提。

He asks questions that we don't ordinarily ask in polite conversations.

比如，‘老兄，你的性生活怎么样？’

Well, how's the sex life, old boy?

克法洛斯回答：‘哎呀，能摆脱这些事，我真松了一口气。’

And Keflitus says, well, I'm rather glad not to have got any of that.

那死亡呢？你对死亡怎么看？

How are you feeling about the prospect of death?

他不怕死，因为他觉得：‘我该还的都还了，一辈子也没说过假话。’

Well, he's not afraid of death because he says, I've paid my debts and I've always told the truth.

苏格拉底接着就把话题引向了正义。

Socrates then engineers that into a conversation about justice.

所以，你是不是觉得，过一种正义的生活，就是指死后不会受到惩罚？

So is that what you think living a just life means that you won't be subject to post mortem punishment adds up to?

在我们之前讨论的那些人身上，我完全看不出他们把哲学和日常生活联系在一起。

Now I don't think there is any sense with any of the previous people that we've been talking about, that there was this kind of ordinary life dimension to philosophy as they saw it.

后来写苏格拉底的人特别强调这一点，比如色诺芬、普鲁塔克，他们都突出苏格拉底那种贴近普通人的哲学方式。

And this was something that later writers about Socrates emphasized, you find this in Xenophon for example, you find it in Plutarch, but they emphasize this, if you like, demotic side to Socrates' way of doing philosophy.

不管是谁，不管聊什么话题，都能变成哲学讨论。

All comers, any subject whatsoever can be turned into a philosophical subject.

非常感谢你，马尔科姆，把前苏格拉底哲学带进了听众的家里。

Well, thank you very much, Malcolm, for coming and bringing the Presocratics into the homes of the listeners.

下一周我会讲希波克拉底文集，再过几周，我们就会谈到萨尔吉斯本人。

Next week, I'll be talking about the Hippocratic Corpus, and in a few weeks, we'll be getting to Sargis himself.

不过现在，我再向马尔科姆道一次谢。

But for now, I'll just thank Malcolm one more time.

谢谢您，我真的很享受这次对话。

Well thank you, I've enjoyed it very much.

希望您下周继续收听，完整了解哲学史的脉络。

And I hope you'll listen next week again to the history of philosophy without any gaps.