HoP 017 - 拉斐尔·伍尔夫谈苏格拉底

嗨，我是彼得·亚当森，你正在收听的是《哲学史播客》，感谢伦敦国王学院和莱弗休姆信托基金的支持。

Hi, I'm PETER Peter Adamson, ADAMSON: and you're listening to the History of Philosophy podcast, brought to you with the support of King's College London and the Leverhulme Trust.

今天的节目将是对我在国王学院的同事拉斐尔·伍尔夫的采访。

Today's episode will be an interview with my colleague here at King's, Raphael Woolf.

拉斐尔，谢谢你来到播客节目。

Thanks for coming, Raphael, to talk on the podcast.

彼得，能来这里真是太好了。

Very good to be here, Peter.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我们今天的话题是苏格拉底，我想我们可以主要关注柏拉图笔下的苏格拉底，因为那样我们就有很多可以聊的了。

Our topic today is Socrates, and I thought that we could probably concentrate on Socrates as he's presented in Plato, since that'll give us plenty to talk about.

所以我想知道，你能不能先描述一下苏格拉底在柏拉图对话录中是如何出现的。

So I was wondering whether you could start by sort of describing how Socrates appears in Plato's dialogues.

当然可以。

Sure.

他是个挺复杂的人物。

He's a complicated figure.

不过我觉得，最能概括他的方式，就是他在《申辩篇》里对自己的描述。

But I think the the way that that he's probably best characterized is the way he character characterises himself in the apology.

他是一只牛虻。

He's a he's a he's a gadfly.

《申辩篇》里有个著名的比喻，他说自己就像一只牛虻，飞到雅典这匹庞大却懒惰的马身上，嗡嗡作响、叮咬刺痛，好让它振作起来，过上更好的生活。

There's a famous image in the apology where he compares himself to a gadfly who's coming and sitting on the large but lazy horse of Athens and buzzing and biting and stinging to provoke it into living a better life.

我觉得很多这样的意象都能在柏拉图笔下苏格拉底的形象中看出来。

And I think a lot of that imagery can be seen in the way that Plato portrays Socrates in many of the dialogues.

他最典型、当然也不是唯一的呈现方式，就是到处拉住别人聊天，问他们能不能告诉他各种美德是什么，毕竟苏格拉底自己也不知道嘛。

The probably the the main, but not the only way he's presented is going around buttonholing people, asking them if they can tell him what various virtues are because Socrates who doesn't?

苏格拉底想知道怎样才能有德行，他觉得身边有些人也许运气好，能给他指点一二。

Socrates wants to know how to be virtuous, and he thinks that there are various people who might just, with a bit of luck, be able to tell him.

于是他问大家什么是美德，但大多数人基本上都答不上来。

He asked them what virtue is, and they are unable to tell him by and large.

他们之所以没法告诉他，是因为每当他们试图告诉苏格拉底什么是美德时，他就会问一连串的问题，目的就是要证明他们根本不懂自己在说什么。

And the reason they're unable to tell him is that when they attempt to tell Socrates what virtue is, he asks them a whole series of questions which, seek to demonstrate that they don't know what they're talking about.

所以，柏拉图大体上把苏格拉底描写成一个非常烦人的人，他总是让人当众出丑，暴露出他们自己都没意识到的无知，或者说至少不喜欢被人揭穿的无知。

So Socrates is by and large portrayed by Plato as a very annoying figure who is constantly showing people up for an ignorance which they didn't think they possessed or at least don't like having revealed.

因为大多数情况下，这都是公开场合。

Because these are by and large public contexts.

周围常常有人在场。

There are often people around.

所以他是个讨人厌、爱挑衅的人，我觉得他实际上就是在努力完成他在《申辩篇》里描述的那项使命。

So he's an annoying, provocative figure, who really is trying, I think, pretty much to carry out the mission he describes in the apology.

而且我认为，把他写成这样一个讨人厌的形象是很重要的。

And I think it's important that he is shown as this annoying figure.

我想这也许是个可以讨论的点，但柏拉图完全没有把他美化。

I think maybe this is something we can talk about, but he's not at all sanitized by Plato.

我想大多数公正的读者都会觉得，这个人会是个很难相处的人。

I think most fair minded readers get the impression that this would be a pretty difficult person to deal with.

就是那种你会绕道避开的人。

The kind of person you'd cross the street to avoid.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得他的一些对话者可能希望自己当初也绕道走了。

And I think a few of his interlocutors might have wished they'd done that.

不过确实。

But yeah.

那你觉得柏拉图笔下的苏格拉底是不是跟历史上的苏格拉底很接近？

And is it your impression that Plato's portrayal of Socrates is closely based on historical Socrates?

我的意思是，这是不是其中一个

I mean, is one of

大问题，这是其中一个，这是其中一个重大问题。

the big questions about This is one of this is one of the big questions.

我想，如果拿阿里斯托芬的作品来对比的话，我们手里关于苏格拉底的主要证据大概就这三部分。

I I suppose to the extent I mean, if you compare it I mean, Aristophanes, we've got the three sort of main bits of evidence for Socrates.

不幸的是，众所周知，苏格拉底本人并没有留下任何著作。

Unfortunately, as is well known, Socrates himself did not write anything.

这就是为什么会出现所谓的“苏格拉底问题”。

And that's why you get this so called problem of Socrates.

这个人到底是谁呢？

Who was this guy?

他没法告诉我们，因为他没留下任何著作。

He doesn't tell us because he didn't leave any writings behind.

所以我们能参考的有柏拉图、色诺芬和阿里斯托芬。

So we have Plato, Xenophon, and Aristophanes.

阿里斯托芬是位喜剧诗人，虽然他是同时代的人里离苏格拉底最近的。

Aristophanes is a comic poet, so you've got although he was the he was the closest contemporary.

所以原则上说，他的记载算是我们手头最可靠的证据了。

So in principle, his is the the sort of best evidence we have.

但那是讽刺，是戏仿，我们隔了这么长时间，很难从中剥离出真实的苏格拉底。

But it's a satire, it's a parody, and it's very difficult for us at this distance of time to unwind from that and get to the the real Socrates.

然后还有柏拉图和色诺芬，他们都在某种程度上是苏格拉底的追随者。

And then you have Plato and Xenophon who are both followers of Socrates to some extent.

而柏拉图笔下的苏格拉底，正如我所说，是一个非常挑衅、令人恼火的人物。

And Plato's Socrates is, as I say, a very provocative, annoying figure.

色诺芬笔下的苏格拉底则乏味得多。

Xenophon's Socrates is much duller.

我得说，我有点偏见，但我认为柏拉图可能最接近真实的苏格拉底，原因如下：我觉得，任何公正的人读柏拉图的描述，都能明白为什么这家伙会因为惹麻烦而被处死。

And I say, I'm going I mean, I'm a little biased in this, but I I am gonna give Plato the sort of, the plaudits for perhaps coming closest to representing the real Socrates for the following reason, that I think, again, any fair minded person who reads Plato's portrayal can see why this guy might have been executed for causing trouble.

那些不是正式的指控，但实质上就是这样。

Those weren't the official charges, but that's what it amounts to.

如果你读色诺芬，就很难理解为什么有人会担心这个人危险到要审判他腐蚀青年。

If you read Xenophon, it's much harder to see why anybody would have worried about this figure being dangerous enough to put on trial for corrupting the young.

因为他有时候看起来更像一个有点讽刺的知心大姐之类的。

Because he sometimes seems more like a slightly sarcastic agony aunt or something like that.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

确实如此。

Exactly.

而且，你知道的，没人会把这事儿当成什么大问题。

And and, you know, nobody's, you know, gonna make a big deal about about that.

不过我想补充一点，这点其实挺重要的，它某种程度上又把问题重新摆到了台面上。

I think one thing I'd like to add though that's important here, in a way, it sort of opens up the question again.

我们之前给柏拉图打了高分，认为他刻画得最准确。

We've we've awarded Plato the gold medal for sort of accurate portrayal.

但我认为这里有个重要的限定条件，因为我不想把色诺芬甩得太远。

But I think there's an important qualification because I don't wanna I don't wanna sort of leave Xenophon sort of too far behind.

在我看来，关于苏格拉底有一点是非常明确的，那就是他是个非常优秀的老师。特别是对于那些追随他的人，我觉得他对他们和那些不在他圈子里的人、以及那些自诩有知识的人态度截然不同。

Because it seems to me that one thing that's as clear as anything could be about Socrates is that he was a very good teacher, particularly for I mean, I think he adopted a rather different attitude to people who weren't sort of in his circle and to people who had pretensions to knowledge, but people who sort of followed him.

我觉得就像任何好老师一样，他会根据面对的学生不同而采取不同的态度。

I think like any good teacher, he was different depending on who he had in front of him.

而柏拉图显然是个非常聪明的人。

And Plato was obviously a very brilliant guy.

但色诺芬，不是说他不聪明。

And Xenophon, don't say obviously wasn't.

顺便说一句，我很喜欢色诺芬。

I love Xenophon, by the way.

他，他，他有别的天赋。

I I He had other gifts.

正如人们说的，他有别的天赋。

He had other gifts, as they say.

我觉得苏格拉底在面对像柏拉图这样初露锋芒的天才时，自然会表现得最有挑衅性，因为那正是好老师会做的。

And I think it's very natural that Socrates should be at his most provocative when dealing with a sort of budding genius like Plato, because that's what a good teacher does.

学生越聪明，你越要挑战他们。

The more brilliant the student, the more you're gonna challenge them.

面对像色诺芬这样的人时，或许可以稍微收敛一点，别那么咄咄逼人。

And just be a little a little quieter, perhaps, when it's someone like like Xenophon who's in front of you.

所以我觉得苏格拉底的问题可能就在于此，你知道的，他是个好老师，而这恰恰就是核心所在。

So I think the problem of Socrates might just be, you know, he was a good teacher, and maybe that's the central problem.

确实如此。

Yeah.

所以我猜在色诺芬和柏拉图的记载中，还引出了另一个问题，也就是说，尽管他被描绘得让人挺头疼的，对吧。

So I guess one of the other questions that arises both in Xenophon and in Plato is that I mean, as annoying as he might be presented as being Mhmm.

他也被视为值得钦佩的榜样。

He's also being held up as admirable.

对。

Yes.

没错。

And Yes.

对我来说，关于柏拉图如何塑造苏格拉底这个问题，其中一个疑问是：在某种程度上，他是否被树立为我们应当效仿的对象？

For me, one of the questions about the way Plato uses Socrates is whether he, in some sense, is being held up to us as someone to imitate.

那他是不是一个道德典范？

So is he a moral exemplar

对。

Yeah.

还是说他几乎是某种独一无二的人，你永远不可能像他那样？

Or is he almost some sui generis kind of person who you could never be like?

对。

Yeah.

所以他甚至是一种超自然的现象。

And so he was a kind of supernatural phenomenon even.

是的。

Yes.

比如他有那个神圣的征兆。

He has this divine sign, for example.

是的。

Yes.

确实。

Indeed.

那我们就不应该模仿他了。

And then we wouldn't be supposed to imitate him.

我觉得柏拉图这里可能有点矛盾。

And it seems to me that there's maybe a tension in Plato.

你同意吗？

Would you agree with that?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，实际上，我可能更倾向于后者，他是独一无二的。

I I think I mean, in fact, I think I'd probably move towards the the latter that he's he's sui generis.

他经常被描述成——我是说，他有时也这样描述自己，当然别人也这样说他——用希腊语来说，就是英文里类似“奇怪”或“特别”的意思。

He's often he's often described I mean, he sometimes describes himself this way, and certainly he's described by others as to use the Greek word, which means, in English, something like strange or peculiar.

字面意思就是，一个没有位置的人。

Literally, it means somebody who doesn't have a place.

我觉得他被描绘成一个超越凡人的人，不属于这个世界，但也不是完全的神。

And I think it's I think he is being portrayed as somebody who's more than merely human, doesn't really belong on this earth, but isn't isn't quite divine either.

我是说，他有很多缺点，所以不可能是神。

I mean, he has too many flaws to be a to be a god.

而且我觉得我们应该认为，在《斐多》的结尾，也就是柏拉图描述苏格拉底之死的对话中，在场的人称赞他是那个时代最优秀的人。

And I think we're I think we're supposed to think there's a fame I mean, the ending of the Phaedo, which is Plato's dialogue describing the death of Socrates, right at the end of the Phaedo, he's praised by those present as the best man of his time.

我相信柏拉图是这么想的，但我也觉得他其实是个有严重缺陷的人。

And I'm sure Plato thought that, but I also think he was a sort of a deeply flawed character as as well.

而且奇怪的是，我们并不应该去模仿他。

And strange enough that we're not really supposed to imitate him.

那你为什么

So why would you

说他有缺陷？

say he's flawed?

是不是因为你之前提到的，当他真正面对人们时，他们总是没有进展，所以他们不知道应该寻找什么？

Is it partially because of what you mentioned before that when he actually confronts people, they don't ever get anywhere, so they don't find out what they're supposed to be looking for?

我觉得部分原因确实是这样，而且我觉得，这很难说，我敢肯定这是柏拉图故意为之的。

I I think partly that, I think, again, it's hard, and I'm sure this is deliberate on Plato's part.

我觉得这其实是一个错误，而且我认为解读者们现在还是经常犯这个错误，就是说，哎呀，那些愚蠢的对话者，他们怎么能蠢到把自己搞得这么糊涂呢？

I think it it's a it's a mistake that I think interpreters still often make, which is to say, oh, those stupid interlocutors, how could they have been so stupid as to get into such a muddle?

然后就好像是可怜的苏格拉底不得不去应付这些人。

And and and it's almost sort of poor old Socrates having to deal with these guys.

嗯，其实也不是。

Well, not not really.

我想说的是，这些人其实还行。

These guy these guys are okay, I wanna say.

他们并不笨。

They're not they're not stupid.

他们面对的是当时最敏锐的头脑，而且通常毫无防备。

They're being confronted by the sharpest intellect of their day, usually without warning.

我觉得他们的恼怒是应该传达给我们的，因为这种恼怒几乎是必然会有的。

And I think that their annoyance is supposed to be transmitted to us as something that one would almost be bound to feel.

我们应该替你们感到恼火。

We should feel annoyed on your behalf.

应该替他们感到恼火。

Should feel on puff.

我的意思是，你知道，我们有很大的优势。

I mean, you know, we have the great benefit.

没错。

Exactly.

我们有很大的优势，因为我们离他们的遭遇已经隔了好几层。

We have the great benefit of being at several times removed from their encounters.

首先，我们读的是文字记录的对话。

Firstly, we're reading a written encounter.

其次，我们隔了两千五百年，而且我们大概知道苏格拉底是谁。

Secondly, we're, you know, two and a half thousand years on, and we sort of we sort of know who Socrates is.

我觉得，我们被邀请去思考这个沃森式的描绘。

And I think, you know, we're being invited to consider this Watson all portrayal.

是的。

Yes.

如果你是希腊读者，也许这篇对话第一次读时应该产生的效果是，当对话者说‘我认为虔诚是什么’之类的话时，你会想，对，听起来没错。

And if you were a Greek reader, maybe part of the effect that the dialogue should have on you the first time you read it is that when the interlocutor says, here's what I think piety is or whatever, you think, yeah, that sounds right.

没错。

Exactly.

然后苏格拉底，没错。

And then Socrates Exactly.

把这个定义击碎了。

Crushes the definition.

没错。

Exactly.

现在，我认为柏拉图的天才之处——我是说，这里不谈苏格拉底，而是谈柏拉图——在于他让我们参与进来，但恰恰是因为那种批判性的距离。

Now now I think the genius of, I mean, just to talk about Plato in a way rather than Socrates, but the genius of Plato is to get us engaged, but precisely because of that critical distance.

所以换句话说，他做了一件了不起的事。

So in other words, it it's a it it's an amazing thing he does.

我认为他既让我们对对话者产生同情，这也是理所应当的。

I think he he both makes us feel sympathy for the interlocutor, as we should, I think.

同时，那一点点距离感让我们能够真正地投入其中。

And at same the time, that little bit of distance means that we can properly engage.

我们可以对苏格拉底感到愤慨，但不至于想要逃走，很多对话者都巴不得尽早溜走，而是要去回应和参与。

We can be sort of outraged by Socrates, but not in such a way that we wanna sort of run away, which a lot of the interlocutors do as soon as they can, but to respond and to engage.

我认为这就是柏拉图希望我们做的。

And I think that's what Plato wants us to do.

我认为这也正是苏格拉底想做的，但实际描述中他并不那么成功。

And I think that's what Socrates wanted to do, but actually is portrayed as not being that successful at doing it.

我再说说那位公正的读者，我真心不认为，当一个典型的对话者离开时，他们会开始自我审视和自我批评。

I don't think again, the the famous fair minded reader, I don't think honestly thinks that when one of these typical interlocutors goes away, they're gonna start examining themselves and being self critical.

我认为在这一方面，柏拉图也向我们展示了严重的失败。

And I think in that regard, there's there's some serious failure that we're that Plato shows us as well.

那苏格拉底性格的其他方面呢？

And what about other dimensions of Socrates' character?

所以他不光爱问问题。

So it's not just that he questions people.

他身上还有不少其他突出的特点。

There are other salient features of this guy.

比如，他很穷。

So for example, he's poor.

对。

Yes.

他光着脚到处走。

He goes around barefoot.

对。

Yes.

等等，诸如此类。

And so on and so forth.

在阿里斯托芬和色诺芬的作品里，他都是一个非常独特的人物，柏拉图也借鉴了其中一些特征。

He's a very distinctive guy both in Aristophanes and Xenophon, and some of these features are picked up in Plato.

对。

Yes.

你觉得柏拉图是在鼓励我们像那样去模仿苏格拉底吗？

Do you think that Plato is encouraging us to imitate Socrates at that level?

就像后来像犬儒学派那样的哲学家所做的那样？

The way maybe philosophers like the cynics did later on?

我我觉得这里可能有两件不同的事情。

I I I suspect I think two maybe two separate things here.

我觉得大概率不是，实际上。

I I think probably probably not, actually.

我觉得这里有个单独的问题，就是这些非常鲜明的特征到底想表达什么。

I think there's a sort of separate question about what these very distinctive traits are supposed to mean.

我再补充几点，他看起来特别能扛事儿。

I think just to add a couple of others, he seemed to be remarkably resilient.

在《会饮篇》里，他被描绘成能忍受极热和极冷，而且酒量比在场所有人都好，还不会醉——这倒是个挺实用的本事。

He's portrayed in the symposium as being able to withstand extremes of heat and cold and to out drink everybody else at the party without getting Always a useful skill.

在这种场合，这技能总是很管用。

Always a useful skill to have in these situations.

我觉得有件事——这是我一直念叨的话题，所以我趁现在赶紧说说。

I think one thing that I this is a little sort of hobby horse of mine, so I'll I'll I'll I'll get it in while I can.

我认为这其实是学者们试图把苏格拉底净化甚至神圣化的表现。

People I think this is part of scholars' attempts to sort of sanitize and indeed sanctify Socrates.

他那方面，比如贫穷、那种坚韧，人们最后常常把他描绘成苦行僧一样的形象，好像他看破红尘、坚持不去碰物质世界似的。

I think that aspect of him, the poverty, the the the sort of resilience, people end up often portraying him as a kind of ascetic figure, as somebody who's turned away from physical world, who has a sort of commitment to not engaging with it.

但我觉得这其实是个错误。

And I think that's that's a mistake.

我是说，我觉得苏格拉底实际上更接地气、更有烟火气。

I mean, I think Socrates is a much more earthy character than that.

随便举几个例子，他结了婚，有孩子，受审的时候都七十岁了，还有个年幼的儿子。

And and, to give but a couple of examples, married, he has children, he's 70 when he's on trial, he has a young son.

所以这个人其实不是那种，你懂的，远离俗世的人。顺带一提，我怀疑柏拉图本人反而是那样的人。

So this is a man who's not, you know, unlike I suspect Plato incidentally.

我觉得柏拉图可能才是那个苦行僧，不过我们也没法确定。

Think Plato's probably the ascetic, but we can't can't really tell.

但和柏拉图不同，苏格拉底在描述中绝对不是那种远离物质世界的人。

But unlike Plato, Socrates as portrayed is certainly not somebody who withdraws from the physical world.

我觉得他是那种根本不在乎物质世界的人，无论怎样都无所谓。

I think he's somebody who couldn't care less about it one way or the other.

你看，他去参加会饮。

You know, he goes to the symposium.

他吃饭。

He has dinner.

他喝酒，而且他喝到别人都醉了他还能继续。

He drinks and he can't say about him until he's drunk.

他喝到其他人都醉倒为止。

He drinks until anybody else would be drunk.

这个人完全乐于享受身体上的愉悦。

This is somebody who's perfectly happy to indulge in physical pleasures.

我觉得关于苏格拉底最核心的一点，也是他可能真正和同时代很多人不同的地方，就是他并不看重这些活动本身。

I think the crucial thing about Socrates and where he's probably genuinely was genuinely different from a lot of his contemporaries is he didn't place any particular value on these activities.

他也是个人，所以他做普通人会做的事。

He's a human being, so he does what human beings do.

他也吃也喝。

He eats and drinks.

他并没有那种关于禁欲的某种意识形态上的执念。

He doesn't have any sort of ideological fetish about not about abstention.

他不是个禁欲主义者，但他没有这些东西也完全过得很好，或者说完全能过得很好。

He's not an abstainer, but he's somebody who manages perfectly well or would manage perfectly well without any of this stuff.

所以再说一遍，我觉得他是个很接地气的人，而且他既接地气，又讽刺性地更加超脱，因为他身在其中，却对这些东西无动于衷。

So again, I think he's an earthy figure, and he's more he's both earthy and and ironically all the more unworldly because he lives with all this stuff, but at the same time he's indifferent to it.

而且实际上，如果他认为生活中真正有价值的是美德和知识，那这可能是，也可能不

And in fact, if he thinks that what's really valuable in life is virtue and knowledge, which may or not may

可能是同一回事，对。

or not be the same thing Right.

对，想想看。

To Monterexist, think.

那他可能就会觉得，重视饥饿或者回避食物，跟重视食物一样，都是个错误。

Then he might think that it was just as much a mistake to value, for example, hunger or avoiding food as to value food.

没错。

Exactly.

那种人恰恰因为这种态度，把重心放到了肉体需求上，而苏格拉底可不这么认为。

That would be somebody who, by that very attitude, was putting far too much emphasis on the physical, whereas Socrates thinks, no.

不管哪种情况，其实都无所谓。

It doesn't matter one way or the other.

你可能会觉得这种态度挺危险的。

You you might say it's a dangerous attitude.

我是说，也许……说实话我也不太确定，但我觉得吧，我得提一下，《会饮篇》里有个特别精彩的故事。阿尔西比亚德斯，我想他是苏格拉底最钟爱的人之一，同时苏格拉底也是阿尔西比亚德斯最钟爱的人之一。

I mean, perhaps, again, one of the and I'm not sure about this, to be honest, but I think, you know, it it it's there's a I must recount, there's a famous wonderful wonderful story in the symposium where Alcibiades, one of both, I think, one of Socrates' great loves and and and and and also Socrates, one of Alcibiades' great loves.

我觉得他们之间确实有一种相互的爱慕之情，只不过因为对象是苏格拉底，所以这种感情显得特别独特。

Think there's a there's a there's a real sort of mutual love affair there, a particularly peculiar kind, it being Socrates.

但在《会饮篇》里，阿尔西比亚德斯讲了他是如何试图引诱苏格拉底的故事。

But Alcibiades in the symposium tells the story of how he attempted to seduce Socrates.

他把苏格拉底弄到床上，结果苏格拉底就那样躺了一整夜，什么都没做。而阿尔西比亚德斯可是当时最英俊、最有魅力的男人。

He got Socrates into bed and Socrates just lay there all night and didn't Alsobydes being the most handsome, charming man of his of his age.

最后什么也没发生。

And nothing happened.

在我看来，一个苦行僧是不会真的和阿尔西比亚德斯同床共枕的。

Now it seems to me that an ascetic doesn't get into bed literally without Civides.

像苏格拉底这样的人，他对这些无动于衷。他可能会上床，但没性致，也不发生关系，可他并不是躲在一个洞穴里逃避所有诱惑。

Somebody like Socrates who is indifferent, who gets into bed, doesn't feel like sex, doesn't have sex, but he's not he's not living in a cave avoiding all such temptation.

他是把自己直接置于危险之中。

He's putting himself right in right in harm's way.

他的独特之处在于，他能毫不费力地抵抗这种诱惑。

And his uniqueness is that he can, you know, he can resist it without without really any effort.

这不像那种带有准基督教色彩的、需要刻意努力的抵抗诱惑。

It's not it's not it's not a sort of quasi Christian, you know, effortful resisting of temptation.

他最后并不太看重这些，所以他能跟阿尔西比亚德躺在一起却什么事都没发生。

He doesn't put much value on it in the end, and so it's easy for him to lie next to Alcibiades and nothing happens.

阿尔西比亚德对此很恼火，不过那是另一回事了。

Alcibiades hates it, but that's another story.

这就是跟苏格拉底约会的下场。

That's what you get when you're dating Socrates.

没错。

Yes.

你可得小心了。

You have been warned.

而且呢，

And the thing

他真正看重的，当然是美德。

that he does value, of course, is virtue.

没错。

Yes.

他总是在试图弄清楚美德是什么，既包括一般意义上的，比如《美诺篇》里的，也包括具体的各种美德，比如正义。对。

He's always trying to find out what virtue is both in general, as for example, the Mino and and the particular virtues, so justice Yes.

虔诚、勇敢，等等。

Piety, courage, and so on.

而且他似乎认为美德与知识有很大关系，或者说美德就是知识。

And he seems to think that virtue is or has a lot to do with knowledge.

对。

Yeah.

你觉得他是不是在提出一个更强的说法，即美德和知识完全是一回事？

Do you think he's making the stronger version of the claim that virtue is just the same thing as knowledge?

你觉得

Do you

他在柏拉图的对话录中是否始终如一地坚持这个观点？

think he's, as it were, consistent across Plato's dialogues in holding that?

我怀疑他确实这么认为。

I suspect that he does think that.

我觉得他肯定，我是说，先处理第一个问题吧。

I think he certainly let I mean, deal with the first thing first.

我觉得他肯定认为知识是美德所必需的。

I think he certainly thinks that knowledge is necessary for virtue.

如果你不知道美德是什么，你就不可能是有德之人。

That if you don't know what virtue is, you can't be virtuous.

或者至少，我认为这两者是一回事。

Or at least, which I think comes to the same thing.

你不可能可靠地

You can't be reliably

那么，相关的知识是指这个吗？

So is that the knowledge that's relevant?

是因为你说知道美德是什么，对吧？

Is it because you said knowing what the virtue is Yeah.

而不是因为，你可能会想，嗯，对。

As opposed because you might think, well Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

勇敢就是知道在战场上该怎么做。

Courage is knowing what to do in a battle.

对。

Yes.

但这跟知道什么是勇敢不一样。

But that's different from knowing what courage is.

对。

Right.

他似乎有一种——我想说，他对知识的看法相当理性化，甚至可以说有点过于学术化。

And he seems to have a I I I would say that he does seem to have a fairly, one might say, intellectualized view of what knowledge is.

他说，我的意思是，《尤西弗罗篇》里就有个很好的例子。

And he says I mean, there's a there's a there's a good example in in the Euthyphro.

也就是说，苏格拉底有时候会解释他为什么这么想，这比我们通常认为的要深入得多。

Mean, he you know, sometimes Socrates sort of tells us why he thinks what he does more than we give him credit for.

在《游叙弗伦》里有这么一段，他说：听着，游叙弗伦，告诉我什么是虔诚。

And there's a there's a there's a bit in the Euthyphro where he says, look, Euthyphro, tell me what piety is.

因为游叙弗伦有点自封为神学专家。

Because Euthyphro is a bit of a self appointed expert on the gods.

所以苏格拉底觉得，这有人能告诉我什么是虔诚了。

So Socrates thinks, here's somebody who tell me what piety is.

告诉我什么是虔诚。

Tell me what piety is.

然后他解释了为什么想知道。

And here's how he he and he explains why he wants to know.

他对游叙弗伦说，这样我就能分辨哪些事情是虔诚的，哪些不是。

He says to to to to Euthyphro so that I can tell which things are pious and which aren't.

所以关键在于，如果没有一个明确的虔诚定义，你就无法可靠地区分虔诚和不虔诚，不管是自己的言行还是别人的言行。

The So idea is that without a proper definition of piety, you can't reliably tell what is pious from what is not pious, whether in his own words and deeds or in somebody else's.

而我觉得，这个观点其实挺站得住脚的。

And I think, actually, that's not a that's a pretty tenable view.

这观点确实有争议，但绝对不算离谱。

It's a controversial view by all means, but it's it's it's not a it's not a crazy view.

我觉得他特别看重能准确无误地把握事物，也就是说要能可靠地把不同事物区分开来。

I think he's very keen on the idea of getting things reliably right, and that means being reliably able to tell one thing from another.

这就好比科学家会有某种测试方法，用来检测特定物质是否存在一样。

So almost like a scientist might have a test for whether a certain substance is present.

没错。

That's right.

他们说，你知道的，把它放进光谱仪里测试，如果得到这个结果，那就绝对没问题。

They say, you know, put it through this spectrometer and if you get this result Absolutely.

我的意思是，这毫无疑问。

I mean, is there's no question.

这是一种非常理性化、学术化的美德观。

It is a very intellectualized version of virtue.

我觉得，我的意思是，勇敢肯定是个好例子，因为你知道，我们通常认为勇敢就是在那一刻该做什么就做什么。

And I think I mean, courage is always gonna be a good a good one because he you know, courage, we tend to think, is sort of all about really all about doing whatever needs to be done at the at the time.

但我觉得，这有点推测的成分。

But I think I think I mean, this is little bit speculative.

我觉得苏格拉底会拒绝那种只是碰巧做了正确的事情，比如说靠本能的人。

I think Socrates would reject the idea that somebody who just happens to end up doing the right thing by, let's say, a kind of instinct.

我是说，那种意义上的知识。

I mean, knowledge in that sense.

你对什么算是勇敢的行为有很好的直觉。

You've got a good instinct for what counts as the courageous thing to do.

我觉得他会说那并不是真正的勇敢。

I think he'd say that's not really truly courageous.

那是运气。

That's luck.

因为在某种程度上，那是运气。

Because in the it's kind of luck.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但即便我相信，苏格拉底，知识是美德所必需的，对。

But even if I believe, Socrates, that knowledge is necessary for virtue Yeah.

但要相信知识对美德是充分的，那就难了。

It's pretty hard to believe that it's sufficient for virtue.

对吧？

Right?

那么如果我有了这个标准，我知道勇敢是什么，我就用这个标准来检验，我说，这个行为是勇敢的，它通过了检验。

So if I had this test, so I know what courage is, and I apply the test, I say, this act action is courageous, it passes the test.

但这还不足以让我真的去做那个正确的行为，对吧？

That's not gonna be enough to get me to do the right action, is it?

没错。

No.

这是苏格拉底最受争议的领域之一，苏格拉底似乎主张，如果你知道某件事是好的或对的，你就一定会去做。

This is this is this is one of the most controversial areas of of Socrates, what Socrates seems to advocate, which is that if you know that something is good or right, you will inevitably do it.

我觉得他确实这么想。

I think that's something he does think.

我甚至觉得，如果他不是这么想的话，就很难解释他为什么如此强调知识。

And I even think that and I think I think if he didn't think that, it would actually be much harder to explain the the sheer emphasis on knowledge.

我是说，如果它仅仅是一个必要条件，那还有其他重要的条件。

I mean, a mere if it's a mere necessary condition, there are other important conditions as well.

你会觉得他会一直反复强调这些条件。

You think he'd sort of bang on about about them.

但他并没有。

But he doesn't.

事实是，他总是谈论知识。

The fact is he's always talking about knowledge.

而且我觉得，我是说，有一段特别著名的文本，在《普罗泰戈拉篇》的结尾，他明确地论证了这一点。

And I I think I mean, there's there's a particularly famous text which at the end of the Protagoras where he argues explicitly.

我马上要对此稍作补充说明。

I'm gonna qualify this in a minute.

我一开始要说的是，因为他是苏格拉底。

I'm gonna start off by saying because it's Socrates.

所以任何话最后都得加上限定条件。

Everything has to be qualified eventually.

他至少表面上是在明确论证一个观点，就是所谓的意志薄弱是不可能的。

He he he seems at least to be arguing explicitly for the thesis that what's known as or weakness of will is impossible.

换个更正面的说法，他论证的是没有任何东西能介于一个人知道该做什么和他去做这件事之间。

To put that more positively, he's arguing for the thesis that nothing can come between somebody's knowledge of what the right thing to do is and they're doing it.

比如说，被快乐吸引而偏离正轨是不可能的。

For example, it's impossible to be waylaid by pleasure.

所以如果你认为该做的是去锻炼，那么坐着看电视的乐趣不会让你分心。

So if you think the right thing to do is is go and do some exercise, then the pleasure of sitting watching TV isn't going to to distract you.

如果你真的知道锻炼是最好的选择，你就会去做。

If you genuinely know that exercise is the best thing to you're gonna you're gonna do it.

在《普罗泰戈拉篇》结尾，他针对这个观点提出了一个非常巧妙的论证。

He has a very ingenious argument at the end of the Protagoras in favor of that thesis.

这个问题有点复杂，我是说，有好几处复杂的地方，但其中一个是他似乎把论证建立在享乐主义是正确的基础上。

The complication is I mean, there's several complications, but one is that he seems to base his argument on the idea that hedonism is true.

换句话说，就是善无非就是快乐。

In other words, the idea that what is good is nothing other than pleasure.

所以快乐和善是一回事。

So the pleasant and the good are one and the same thing.

他基本上论证说，如果真是这样，那你知道什么最好、却因为被快乐打败而去做别的事——用他的话说——这种想法是荒谬的。

And he he he argues that, basically, if that's true, then the idea that you could know what's best but do something else because you're, as he puts it, overcome by pleasure is absurd.

你就直接，如果快乐就是善，那你反正也是在做好事。

You'd simply if pleasure just is the good, you'd be doing the best thing anyway.

被快乐打败，就是所谓“被善打败”。

Being overcome by pleasure is just being, quote, overcome by the good.

换句话说，就是被实际上最好的行为打败，如果你接受这个前提的话。

In other in other words, being overcome by what is in fact the best action if you're a head in this.

这个问题的复杂之处在于，苏格拉底在别处对快乐可是相当不客气的。

And the the reason this is this is complicated is it it Socrates is very rude about pleasure in other places.

长话短说，我觉得这大概就是核心所在。

To cut a long story short, I mean, here here's here's what I think is the is the sort of gist of this.

我认为他确实主张那个有争议的观点，即知识足以指导正确的行动。

I think he does advocate the controversial thesis that that knowledge is sufficient for right action.

但我也觉得，他用的论证——这是典型的苏格拉底风格——实际上，我觉得这点很重要，主要不是他在宣扬自己的观点，甚至不是用他自己相信的前提来论证自己的观点。

But I also think that the argument he uses, and this is classic Socrates, is not actually primarily, I think this is a really important point, is not primarily about him advocating his own point of view or even arguing for his own point of view using premises that he himself believes in.

我觉得他一直在做他在《申辩篇》里说自己做的事，那就是在考验人。

I think all the time he's doing what he says in the apology he does, which is he's testing people.

再简单说一下背景，在《普罗泰戈拉篇》里，他在和普罗泰戈拉争论。

And just to, again, briefly put that in a bit of context, in The Protagoras, he's arguing against Protagoras.

这场争论的结果不只是得出你不能违背对最佳选择的认识而行动这个结论。

And what he ends up The upshot of this argument is not simply the conclusion that you can't, act against your knowledge of what's best.

而是要向普罗泰戈拉证明，他的论点，即至少勇敢——就拿你的例子，彼得——至少勇敢不能简单归结为知识，这是错误的。

But it's to show Protagoras that his thesis, which is that courage at least, so to take your example, Peter, that courage at least is not something that's simply reducible to knowledge is false.

所以实际上，这场针对普罗泰戈拉的论证，作用在于表明普罗泰戈拉自己的信念是混乱的，他需要回去理清自己的信念，让它们变得更有条理。

So actually what that argument to the Protagoras serves is to show that Protagoras' own beliefs are confused and that he needs to go away and try and sort out his beliefs and get them in better shape.

所以我仍然倾向于认为这是苏格拉底相信的观点，如果他不相信，他不会这么反复强调。

So I think I'm still inclined to say that this is something Socrates believes, that he wouldn't be banging on about it so much if he didn't believe it.

但他的主要任务不是宣扬某个特定的观点，而是让他对话的人理清思路——先让他们看到自己的信念是混乱的，因此他们需要整理这些信念，并希望能更好地理解这些问题。

But that his primary task is not to advocate a particular point of view, but to get the people he's talking to to sort out the to show them first that their beliefs are confused and therefore that they need to sort them out and hopefully get a a better grasp on these issues themselves.

这就是他的目的。

That's what he's about.

那么也许这正好可以自然地过渡到柏拉图，因为如果苏格拉底总是关注如何回应眼前的人，是的。

And so maybe the that gives us a nice segue into Plato because if Socrates was always concerned with responding to the person in front of him Yes.

那么他的伟大学生柏拉图以对话形式写作，只展示人们互相面对，这就说得通了。

It would make sense that his great student Plato writes in dialogues is only showing us people confronting each other.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得我们应该花点时间聊聊那个稍微不那么好斗的苏格拉底。

I mean, I think that there are I mean, I think we should give a bit of a bit of airtime to to perhaps the slightly less combative Socrates.

比如在《斐多》或《理想国》这样的对话里，他面对的人不像欧绪弗洛或者普罗泰戈拉那样，有着那种荒谬的、自以为是的知识傲慢。

I mean, in a dialogue like the Phaedo or the Republic, when he's talking to people who don't have the kind of absurdly misguided pretensions to knowledge that somebody like Euthyphro or maybe even Protagoras has.

首先，他似乎不太热衷于羞辱他们、让他们难堪，说白了就是这样。

He seems to be firstly less sort of interested in in in humiliating them and showing them up, to to put it bluntly.

其次，表面上他更倾向于论证某个特定的观点。

And secondly, again, on on the surface, more interested in arguing for a particular point of view.

但即便如此，我觉得事情还是很复杂的。

Even then though, I think it's complicated.

比如在《斐多》里，他确实给出了一整套论证，试图证明灵魂是不朽的。

I mean, the Fido, where he does seem to sort of give us a whole range of arguments about to prove that the soul is immortal.

但不太清楚他是不是真的想说服对话者相信这一点，还是说他自己真的相信。

Not clear whether he's really trying to persuade his interlocutors that that's the case as something that he himself believes.

所以再说一遍，这不是说我不认为他相信，但我觉得苏格拉底最了不起的地方在于，他可能更关心的是激励对话者去思考，他那种生活方式是有价值的，而不是真的去说服别人相信他自己相信的东西。

So again, it's not I mean, I think he does believe it, but again, I think the extraordinary thing about Socrates is that he's he's probably, in that sense, more concerned with motivating the interlocutors to think that there's something worthwhile about the kind of life that he lives than to really sort of persuade somebody else of something that he himself believes.

我觉得苏格拉底身上有一件特别奇怪的事，这也是阿尔西比亚德斯指责他的，我觉得指责得对，就是你永远搞不清苏格拉底自己到底信什么。

I think one of the really peculiar things about Socrates is that he's and this is something that Alcibiades accuses him of, I think, rightly, that you never quite know what Socrates himself believes.

而且我觉得他最终也并不特别想告诉我们他信什么。

And I think he's not interested in ultimately and particularly in telling us what he believes.

如果有一件事是他真正热衷、真正坚信的，那就是我们应该不断追问，永不放弃。

And if there's anything there's one thing he's really passionate convinced of is simply that we should go on inquiring and never give up.

没错。

Exactly.

正是。

Exactly.

本着这种精神，我想邀请听众们下周继续收听，那时我会讲到第一期柏拉图节目，柏拉图系列的第一期。

And in that spirit, I would like to invite our listeners to keep listening next week when I get to the first Plato episode, the first of many Plato episodes.

但就现在而言，我想感谢你，拉斐尔，来上播客，非常感谢。

But for now, I'd like to thank you, Raphael, for coming on the podcast Thanks very much.

和我们分享你的智慧。

Sharing your wisdom with us.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much indeed.