乔治·R·R·马丁对话：如何采访GRRM！（2022）

意思是，本来可以给我打个

Mean, could have given me a

电话，让我知道的。

call and let me know.

现在呢，你知道，我对《龙之家族》非常满意。

Now at moment, you know, I have, I'm very happy with, House of the Dragon.

这是一部非常忠实的改编。

It's a very faithful adaptation.

对。

Yeah.

有一些改动。

There's some changes.

但是，我和瑞恩·康达尔、米格尔·萨波奇尼克关系很好。

But, but I have a great relationship with, Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik.

我们有一个

We've got a

对他感觉不错。

good feeling about him.

我们真的很喜欢他做的所有采访。

We've really liked all the interviews he's done.

他说了

He's said

到目前为止所有正确的话。

all the right things so far.

对。

Yeah.

我们一会儿也要采访瑞安。

We're interviewing Ryan in in a little while too.

是的。

Yeah.

这个月底。

Later this month.

不过，就像你说的，还有很多其他剧集在开发中。

So But there are, as you say, a number of other shows in development.

每个剧集都有不同的制片人和编剧，每段合作关系也都不一样。

Everyone has a different showrunner and and writer, and every relationship there is is different.

所以我们就等着看这些剧集最后会怎么样吧。

So we shall see how all of those So

具体到《龙之家族》，我有个听众提了个问题，我觉得我们所有人都很关心。

for House of the Dragon specifically, I've got a listener submit a question for you that I I think all of us care a lot about.

我就直接念出来吧，因为我觉得他问得特别好。

So I'm just gonna read it because I think they framed it in a really good way.

柯蒂斯·W·弗兰克斯问：我们应该怎么看待《龙之家族》的正典地位？

From Curtis w Franks, he asked, how should we treat House of the Dragon in terms of canon?

我会把它看作是和蘑菇以及其他来源并列的又一个叙事版本。

I would be treating it as yet another narrative competing with Mushroom and other sources.

它是对事件序列的一种可能解释和看法，但在有冲突的时候，并不一定比其他版本更正确。

It is one possible explanation and take on the sequence of events, but not necessarily more correct than any of the others when they are in conflict.

这会给故事增添更多的历史编纂学复杂性。

It would add yet more history historiographic complexity to the story.

你对这种解读怎么看？

How do you feel about that interpretation?

当这些解读之间出现明显冲突时，我们是否应该优先考虑这些解读而不是其他的？

Should we prioritize these interpretations over others when there is an outright conflict between them?

所以谈谈正典性吧。

So speak to Canon.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这个问题问得非常有水平。

Well, that's a very eloquently put question.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得他这个问题提得很好。

I think he did a good job with that.

是的，谢谢，但它

Yes, Thanks, But it

这确实打开了一个非常大的讨论空间。

it it opens, you know, a very large area for discussion.

对。

Mhmm.

而且，以前也有其他采访者以各种形式问过我这个问题。

And, I've been asked about this by various other interviewers in various forms and interviews past.

我通常反问提问者：斯嘉丽·奥哈拉有几个孩子？

And I often respond with, the question for the questioner, how many children did Scarlet Yep.

在玛格丽特·米切尔的小说里，她有三个。

O'Hara I mean, in Margaret Mitchell's novel, she has three.

在1939年左右的米高梅经典电影里，她只有一个。

In the classic MGM movie from, 1939 or so, she has one.

哪个才是真的？

Which is real?

你应该生几个孩子？

How many children should you have?

你应该相信哪个？

What should you believe?

取决于哪个版本。

Depends on what canon

我们说的是书还是电影。

we're The talking book or book.

对。

Yeah.

当然，这是个陷阱问题，因为真正的答案是她一个孩子都没有，因为她根本不存在。

And of course, it's a trick question because the, the real answer is she had none because she never existed.

她是个虚构的角色，是编出来的。别这样了。

She's a fictional character that, was made Come on now.

所以，她一个孩子都没有。

So, she had she had no children.

这是一个故事，他们选择了两种不同的方式来讲述它。

It's a story, and there were two different ways that they chose to to tell the story.

电影制作人把它简化了。

The the filmmakers simplified it.

他们不想处理她前两任丈夫的孩子。

They didn't want to deal with the children of her first two husbands.

然后他们把这些孩子删掉了。

And they took them out.

据我所知，很少有人想念他们。

And as far as I can tell, very few people have missed them.

虽然，嗯。

Although Mhmm.

我不是《飘》粉丝圈的重要成员。

I'm not a big part of the Gone Wind fandom.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

他们可能正在那边争论这件事，甚至很可能在争论。

They may be debating it over over there even They probably are.

如果真有《乱世佳人》的粉丝圈，那肯定会有这样的争论。

If there is a Gone With With The Wind fandom, there probably has to be.

这本书和电影现在依然很受欢迎。

It's still a very popular book and movie.

所以这跟我平时面对的问题有点类似。

So this is just somewhat the same question that, you know, that I deal with.

毕竟书是我写的。

I mean, I wrote the books.

至少前五本书的故事是我呈现的。

I, I presented the story, at least for the first five books.

而且随着我们深入，戴夫和丹在很多方面做了非常忠实的改编，但并不是百分之百忠实。

And, as, as we got into it, Dave and Dan, did an amazingly faithful adaption in many ways, but not a 100% faithful adaption.

对。

Yeah.

他们从第一季就开始做改动了。

They, they, started making changes even as early as, as, season one.

我记得在第一季的时候，我还参与得比较多，跟他们讨论过一些事情，比如他们很早就把珍·普尔这个角色删掉了。

And And I remember I had discussions with them back in season one, when I was more involved in the process, when we discussed things and, and like, the fact that they, removed, Jane Poole was a very early thing.

对。

Yeah.

他们其实说，哦，珍·普尔在剧里出现过。

They actually said, oh, Jane Poole was in it.

你看到在临冬城宴会上，坐在珊莎旁边的那个女孩。

You see the girl that's sitting next to Sansa in the one scene in, in, the Feast of Winter film.

对，那就是珍·普尔。

And yes, that so that's Jane Poole.

但你从来没听过她的名字，而且她后来也没再出现。

But you never hear her name, and she's not in it.

但我跟他们说过，是的，但这就是我所说的蝴蝶效应，源自雷·布拉德伯里的著名故事《雷霆之声》。

But I did tell them, yes, but there's the butterfly effect, as I called it, going deriving from the famous Ray Bradbury's story, A Sound of Thunder.

你知道，你在侏罗纪踩死一只蝴蝶，突然之间，从那一刻起，整个人类历史都变了。一个长篇故事里的小小改变，可能会在后来引发巨大的变化。

You know, you you crush a butterfly in the Jurassic, and suddenly you've changed the whole of human history from that point forward A little change in a long narrative can have big changes further on.

对。

Yeah.

而《乱世佳人》就不用担心这个，因为他们删掉的那两个孩子对故事没有任何影响。

And Gone With the Wind didn't have to worry about that because, those two children that they removed never had any impact on the story.

而且玛格丽特·米切尔也没有继续写六本续集，让那两个孩子长大成人，成为三K党的领袖什么的，谁知道她可能会拿那两个男孩做什么。

And Margaret Mitchell didn't go on to write six more novels in which the children grew up and became the leader of the Ku Klux Klan to whatever the hell, you know, she might have done with those two two boys.

我觉得那两个都是男孩，

I think they were both boys, the

大一点的孩子。

older children.

还有，瑞德的女儿是个女孩，所以她当时也不用担心蝴蝶效应。

And, Rhett's daughter was a so she then didn't have to deal with the butterfly effect there.

但是，你知道，当我们在第一季删掉简·普尔时，你就没有简·普尔可以用来假扮艾莉亚了，就像书里发生的那样。

But, you know, when we remove Jane Poole from season one, then you don't have Jane Poole available for to be the fake Arya, as happens in the book.

那你们当时怎么办呢？

So what do you do then?

我是说，蝴蝶效应已经造成了这个结果。

I mean, the butterfly effect has has done that.

对。

Yeah.

我想你应该熟悉《苍穹浩瀚》吧。

I think, you're familiar with The Expanse.

我觉得最好的改编例子之一就是《苍穹浩瀚》的电视剧，他们有编剧在编剧室里。

I think one of the best adaptations would be an an example would be The Expanse TV show where they have the writers in the writers room.

我记得我是边看剧边读原著的，第一季里有些情节我就觉得，这书里没有啊。

And I remember I was reading the books as the show aired, and there were some things that happened in season one where I was like, that's not in the books.

然后我读到第五本书的时候，哦，原来如此。

And then I got to book five and Right.

他们一直在为后面的情节做铺垫，我觉得这真的展示了有原作者在场的重要性，他能说，其实这个在我还没出版的书里很重要。

They they were adapting things in in all the way there, and I think they really it really showed how much having the author there to be like, actually, this gonna be important in a book I haven't even published yet.

所以，也许保留这一点会非常重要。

So, like, maybe keep that in can be really important.

对。

Yeah.

而且泰和丹尼尔，你知道，泰当过我好几年助理，也参与了很多首映和活动，我去的那些场合他都在。

And Ty and Daniel, well, you know, Ty was my assistant for years and and, you know, was part of, you know, so many premieres and events and things like I went to.

他甚至跟我一起去过摩洛哥。

And he even went to Morocco with me.

哦，那挺有意思的。

Oh, fun.

去看他们拍摄丹尼的婚礼，还有其他一些事情，所以他算是从内部了解整个流程。

To watch them, shoot, Danny's wedding and, So various other he, he kind of knew the process from the inside.

而丹尼尔住在新墨西哥州，我在克拉里昂西区的一期课程里当过他的老师，还和他一起参加过写作小组，诸如此类的。

And Daniel, lives here in New Mexico, and I, I was his teacher at a session of clarion west and was in a writers' group with him and all of that.

所以我对他们挺了解的。

So I, I knew them pretty well.

而且我觉得他们非常明智，选择进入编剧室去做这件事。

And, and, I think they were very wise to, to go into the writer's room and to do that.

因为他们告诉我的故事里，他们也遇到了蝴蝶效应。

Because I know from the stories they've told me that they encountered the, the butterfly effect too.

他们在编剧室里，当时的剧集主管（一开始不是他们）会说，哦，我们要删掉这个角色。

They would be in the writer's room and the, and the showrunners, who was not them initially, would say, oh, we're gonna remove this, person.

然后泰或丹尼尔会说，嗯，我们可以这么做。

And, and, you know, Ty or Daniel would say, well, we could do that.

但到了第四季，就会有问题，因为你删掉了那个东西。

But then when you get to season four, there's gonna be a problem because you took that other, other thing.

所以，是的，蝴蝶效应就是这样。

So, yeah, the butterfly effect can have that.

但回到正典这个整体问题上来。

But getting back to the whole issue of canon.

嗯。

Mhmm.

蝴蝶效应会影响正典，但有时候剧集里也会有刻意的改动，比如制片人、编剧、工作室或电视台，不管是谁决定的，剧情会走向不同的方向。

The butterfly effect affects the canon, but there's also sometimes deliberate changes in a show where the, the showrunners or the writers or the studio or network or wherever it comes from, it goes in a different direction.

所以，在《冰与火之歌》、《权力的游戏》、维斯特洛，随便你怎么叫它，这个历史节点上，我们现在有两条正典。

So what we're doing at this point in in the history of A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones, Westeros, whatever you wanna call it, we have two canons.

一条是剧集正典，也就是《权力的游戏》的正典。

We have the show canon, the Game of Thrones canon.

对。

Mhmm.

对。

Mhmm.

另一条是《冰与火之歌》的正典。

And we have the Song of Ice and Fire canon.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

而在原著系列里，显然还在写《凛冬的寒风》。

And in the in the book canon, obviously still writing The Winds of Winter.

我相信你们都知道这一点。

I'm sure you all know that.

然后还有另一本书。而且在我写这些书的时候，我在之前的博客里也说过，我一直知道事情会有所不同。

And then there's another book beyond And as I write them, and I've said this in a previous blog post, I always knew that things were gonna be different.

但随着我写作，故事逐渐鲜活起来，角色也活了起来，这让我离剧集越来越远。

But as I'm writing, as the stories are coming alive and the characters are coming alive, it's taking me further and further away from, the, the show.

所以会有一些非常大的差异。

So there's gonna be some very considerable differences.

随着我们深入下去，原著系列会和剧集系列有很大的不同。

And the book canon is gonna be quite different from the the show canon as we get, deeper into it.

我相信他们删掉了那么多角色。

I would believe they cut so many characters.

光凭这一点，怎么可能不不同呢？

How could it not be different on that alone?

是的，没错。

Well, yes.

我的意思是，我还在写维多利亚和雷乔伊，还有亚莲恩。对。

I mean, I'm still writing about Victorian Rayjoy and and, Arianne Yeah.

那是我的最爱。

That's my love.

我最喜欢亚莲恩了。

I love Arianne the best.

所以当她被删掉的时候，我真的很伤心。

So I was I was devastated when they cut her.

我觉得她非常适合HBO。

I thought she was perfect for HBO.

真是令人震惊。

It's shocking.

对。

Yeah.

所以，我虽然也难过，但没那么难过。

So I but I was less devastated.

我也是。

Too.

而且，你知道，里面还有其他一些角色，比如那个头发湿漉漉的。

And, you know, there are a number of other characters in there, you know, a damp hair.

对。

Mhmm.

而且，即使有些角色在两个版本里都有，差别也很大。

And even some of the characters who are in both are very different.

我是说，他们版本的攸伦·葛雷乔伊和我版本的攸伦·葛雷乔伊简直是天壤之别。

I mean, their version of, You're on Greyjoy is day and night from my version of of You're on Greyjoy.

而且，你知道，类似的改动还有很多。

And, you know, similar, similar changes.

所以，这其实是两个不同的世界观。

So so there are two different canons.

现在我们开发的大部分剧集，几乎都是前传，对吧。

Now because most of these shows that we're developing, almost all of them are prequels Mhmm.

我觉得这是一个统一的设定。

I think it's a single canon.

对。

Mhmm.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这些前传都可以通向……

Because both all of these prequels can lead up to Mhmm.

《权力的游戏》的开头。

Game of Thrones at at the beginning.

是的。

Yeah.

比较棘手的是《琼恩·雪诺》那部剧，因为那是唯一的续集。

The one that's a little trickier is the Jon Snow show, because that's the only sequel.

对。

Mhmm.

尽管如此，还是有点难搞。

That being said, it's a little tricky.

我的意思是，这让我忙个不停，我也不知道接下来会发生什么。

I mean, it keeps me it keeps me busy, and I don't know what's gonna come.

但就像我说的，我们确实有好几部剧在开发中，而且每部剧都有不同的制片人。

But we do have, as I say, a number of different shows in development, and everyone has a different showrunner.

对。

Mhmm.

但每个人也都有我参与，以某种方式，还有你知道的，其他一些和我一起工作的人。

But everyone also has me and, in in, some capacity and, you know, some other other, people that I work with him.

其中之一是蒂·麦凯尔。

One of them, Tee McKell.

是的。

Yes.

我很喜欢蒂。

I love Tee.

我觉得蒂有时候比我还了解维斯特洛。

She's she is I think Tee knows more about Westeros than, than I do sometimes.

她不明白。

She doesn't understand.

她对维斯特洛的了解非常透彻，而且她一直在为很多正在开发中的剧集担任顾问。

She's has an amazing grasp of it, and she's been a consultant on, many of these, shows in development.

但我想避免的是，我不知道最终会有多少部剧能上线，希望不止一部。

But what I want to avoid, and I don't know how many shows are gonna go, hopefully more than one.

对。

Yeah.

但就像我说的，我们有原著的正史，也有剧集的正史。

But as I said, we have the book canon, and we have the show canon.

我不希望发生的是，我们有17个剧集正典。

What I don't want to happen is that we have 17 show canons.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

每个不同的剧集制作人都决定往不同的方向走，结果什么都不连贯，因为，对。

Where every every different showrunner decides to take it in a different direction, and nothing makes any sense because Yeah.

没有一致性。

There's no consistency.

你得有连贯的脉络。

You have to have connective tissue.

对。

Yeah.

绝对是这样。

Absolutely.

卢卡斯影业有他们所谓的“故事小组”，就是一组专门负责管理、保持内容相对一致的人。

Lucasfilm has their story group as they call it, and it's a a set group of people who are in charge of managing, keeping things relatively consistent.

谁有那个？

Who has that?

卢卡斯影业，为了《星球大战》。

Lucasfilm for Star Wars.

它叫“故事小组”。

It's called the Story Group.

我觉得这其实……对他们来说似乎不一定效果最好。

And I think it's a really it doesn't seem to have necessarily worked out the best for them.

我不太清楚。

I don't know.

但总的来说，他们还是在努力的。

But in general, they're trying.

里面确实有一些不一致的地方。

Have met some inconsistency in there.

确实有。

They have.

确实有。

They have.

看起来像

Looks like

比那个剧好。

better than the show.

对。

Yeah.

他们确实有一些不错的

They've they've got some good

《星球大战》的书，那些书

Star Wars books out there that are

但他们还是在努力打造一个连贯统一的宇宙。

but they're they're trying to have a consistent cohesive universe as it were.

是的。

Yes.

他们在这方面也下了不少功夫。

They're also doing a lot of ruthless with that.

而且他们一开始就废除了扩展宇宙。

And they abolished the expanded universe to start.

对。

Yeah.

他们确实这么做了，

They well, they did it,

但只是为了能够

but only so that they could

再把它加回来。

add it back in.

他们正在把原扩展宇宙中的一些内容重新加回来。

There's things from the original expanded universe that they're adding back in.

比如，他们把索龙元帅加回来了。

Like, they're they added Thrawn back in, for example.

他们基本上就是把过去一笔勾销，

They are they kinda just wiped the slate clean as

因为原来的设定本来就不严谨，自己跟自己矛盾。

it was it it wasn't made, so it it conflicted with itself.

所以挺好的。

So good.

我觉得确实有必要这么做。

Kinda need to be done, I suppose.

所以，你知道，这里关于正史的问题，

So I like You know, the the the the whole question here about Cannon.

粉丝们需要记住的是——我这么说可能不太好，因为我不想让人觉得我在批评粉丝，

What the fans have to keep in mind, and I hate to say this because I I don't wanna sound like I'm attacking the fans.

我很喜欢粉丝们。

I love the fans.

我自己也是很多这些系列的粉丝。

I'm a fan myself of many of these franchises.

对。

Mhmm.

但这些都是我们编出来的。

But we're making this shit up.

没有真正的标准，你知道吗？

There is no real you know?

如果我去读一本关于二战之类的小说，我会期望它准确无误。

If if I go back and I read a novel about the, World War II or something like that, I'd be expected to get it right.

历史就是历史。

And history is what it is.

但在这里，无论是《哈利·波特》《星球大战》《星际迷航》《指环王》还是我的作品，都是我们编出来的。

But here, whether it's Harry Potter or Star Wars or Star Trek or Lord of the Rings or my stuff, we're making this stuff up.

然后有人来了，想改点什么，或者编出不同的版本。

And, then someone comes along and they wanna change something or make it up differently.

而且，通常如果你像我这样的人，你不会喜欢那样。

And, usually, if you're somebody like me, you don't like that.

你喜欢你自己做的方式。

You like the way you did it.

你那样做是有原因的。

You did it that way for a reason.

但这就是流程运作的方式。

But, it is the way the process works.

而且，特别是当你的作品被改编，或者你知道，我想“正典”这个词，我没查过。

And, especially when you're being adapted or when you're you know, I think the word canon and I haven't looked this up.

我可能完全错了。

I may be completely wrong.

但我认为“正典”这个词实际上源自于夏洛克·福尔摩斯的粉丝圈，就是贝克街小分队那些人，因为夏洛克·福尔摩斯成了世界上最受欢迎的角色之一，不仅在英国，全世界都是。

But I think the word canon actually derived out of Sherlock Holmes fandoms, the, the Baker Street irregulars and all that, who, who because Sherlock Holmes became one of the most popular characters in the world, not only in Britain, but all around the world.

他是，他是其中之一，天哪，我记得至少在上世纪六七十年代，现在可能不一样了，但我记得读过一篇文章说，在世界上每个国家，有三个角色是所有人都知道的：人猿泰山、夏洛克·福尔摩斯和超人。

He was, he was one of, boy, I remember at, at least back in the 60s and 70s, probably different by now, but I, I remember reading an article that said, in every country in the world, there are three characters that everybody knows, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, and Superman.

现在的话，可能确实是这样。

Now today, it that might Yeah.

不过，福尔摩斯当年可是非常火的。

Be but Sherlock Holmes was huge.

后来很多人开始写自己的福尔摩斯故事或者模仿作品，你知道，当福尔摩斯的故事还在版权保护期内，而且阿瑟·柯南·道尔还活着的时候，他们就得把这些故事伪装一下。

And a lot of people started writing, you know, later when their own Sherlock Holmes stories and pastiches, you know, when when, Holmes stories were still under copyright and Afrika Kornedoya was alive, they had to disguise them.

你明白吧？

You know?

比如说，我记得好像是奥古斯特·德雷斯写了一系列关于英国一个咨询侦探的故事，叫太阳神探。

You can like, I think it was August Duralith wrote a series of stories about a consulting detective in England called Solar Ponds.

其实就是福尔摩斯换了个名字。

And he was Sherlock Holmes going by a different name here.

你可以去读读那些太阳神探的故事。

You can read the sh solar ponds stories.

这些故事现在还能找到。

They're still out there.

但关键是，那些最受欢迎的常规故事，我觉得是福尔摩斯相关的大群体，不。

But the point is the the biggest treat of regulars, which I think was the big group for Holmes things, no.

那些事情其实都没发生在福尔摩斯身上。

None of that stuff actually happened to Sherlock.

那些后来人写的故事，一个都没发生。

None of these stories by later people.

正典，我觉得最早的那些，只有阿瑟·柯南·道尔自己写的才算。

The canon, and that's where I think the think the first ones, is only the stuff written by Arthur Conan Doyle himself.

那才是正典。

That is the canon.

那是

That's the

同人。

fanon.

其他的一切都只是，你知道的

And everything else is just, you know

同人设定。

Fanon.

其他内容。

Other stuff.

同人设定。

Fanon.

对。

Yeah.

有

There's

人们称之为半正典、同人设定、个人脑补。

people call semi canon, fanon, head canons.

有很多不同的看法。

There's a lot of varying thoughts.

我觉得人们会

I think people get a

有点纠结于正典设定。

little hung up on canon.

就是，你知道的，享受这个系列就好。

Just, you know, enjoy the series.

他们确实是这样。

They do.

而且这是那种，你知道，你怎么定义这个词？

And it it's one of these things that, you know, how do you define the word?

定义这个词，我来告诉你什么算数什么不算。

Define the word, I'll tell you what's counted or not.

你知道吗？

You know?

你不能说，对。

You you can't say Yeah.

不，斯嘉丽·奥哈拉有三个孩子，因为，你知道，她

No, Scarlet O'Hara had three children because, you know, she

所以我想如果我要重新问这个问题的话，问题就是，《龙之家族》里的一些解读是不是真实的叙述，还是说不是。

So I guess if I'm gonna re ask the question then, the question would be, are some of the interpretations in house of the dragon the true telling or I'm not some.

你会这么说吗？

Would you say that?

在《血与火》里故意这么写的。

Deliberately playing that in in Blood and Fire.

没错。

Exactly.

我当时是在玩历史，玩真实的历史，把它写成一本虚构的历史书。

I was I was playing with the history, with actual history, and writing this as a fake history book.

而且我从中得到了很多乐趣。

And, and I had a lot of fun with that.

我也知道有些读者不喜欢这样。

And I I know some readers didn't like it.

他们想要一部传统的小说。

They wanted a traditional novel.

对。

Yeah.

我们的听众很喜欢。

Our listeners loved it.

我当时真的特别努力，在那本书出版的时候，我就说我不想让任何人买了之后失望，因为它跟其他的不一样。

Was very I really went out of my way, when that book was coming out to say I didn't want anyone to buy it and be disappointed because it wasn't like the others.

我一直觉得，这不是一部小说。

Kept thinking, this is not a novel.

这不是一部小说。

This is not a novel.

我甚至在我的网站上，当雨果奖提名的时候，我说，别提名这个为最佳小说。

I even went on my website when, like, the Yuva nomination was made, do not nominate this for best novel.

你知道，如果你喜欢它，我不介意提名它为最佳相关作品，我觉得它适合那个类别。

You know, if you like it, I wouldn't mind nominating it for best related work, which I thought was a category it fit in.

也许它其实并不适合那个类别。

Maybe it actually didn't fit in that category.

不知道。

Don't know.

雨果奖嘛，但电影可能有点……它不是传统意义上的小说。

Yuga But, movies can be a little it was not a traditional novel.

它一开始被我叫做“伪历史”，后来有些读者说他们讨厌这个说法。

It was I I called it fake history at first, and then some of my readers said they hated that term.

就开始叫它“虚构历史”了。

Started calling it imaginary history.

但它确实是一种由不道德角色写成的伪历史。

But it is it is it is a pseudo history of sorts written by an immoral character.

很久很久以前，在我甚至还没想过《权力的游戏》或任何那些书之前，我在写我的第五本小说——如果当时出版了的话——背景设定在1890年代的纽约，是一部历史恐怖小说，正值黄色新闻的鼎盛时期。

Long, long time ago, before I even dreamed of Game of Thrones or any of the books, I was writing my, what would have been my fifth novel if it had been published, which was set in 1890s New York, historical horror novel, during the era, great era of yellow journalism.

哦。

Oh.

然后，你知道，有个连环杀手在逃，我让三个来自竞争报社的记者去追他。

And I had a, you know, a killer was on the loose, and I had three reporters from rival newspapers chasing him.

《纽约新闻报》，是威廉·伦道夫·赫斯特办的，《纽约先驱报》，是詹姆斯·戈登·贝内特二世办的，还有《纽约世界报》，是约瑟夫·普利策办的。

The, the New York Journal, which was published by William Randolph Hearst, the New York Herald, which was published by James Gordon Bennett Jr, and, the New York World, which was published by Joseph Pulitzer.

写那个特别有意思。

Had a lot of fun with that.

我写了200页，不过，哎，那又是一个很长的故事了。

I wrote 200 pages of it, but, yeah, that's another her long story.

所以我从来没赢过什么。

So I've never won anywhere.

我

I

一直没能卖出去。

never could never could sell it.

但是

But

那你现在还留着它，就放在档案里吗？

So as you still have it just sitting in the archives?

对。

Yeah.

而且我其实还发表过，那个页码片段，是很多年前我第一次遇到创作瓶颈时，在一本季刊上发表的。

And I actually was published in a the the number page fragment was published in a quartet that I did years ago when I first saw an art block.

故事的重点是，普利策的报纸《纽约世界报》非常成功。

The point of the story is, Pulitzer Pulitzer's, newspaper, the New York World, was very successful.

然后他在纽约的报业街上盖了一栋楼，那里很多报纸都在同一条街上。

And he built a building for it on Publishers Row in New York City, where a lot of the newspapers were on like the same block.

他盖的这栋楼顶上有个金色的圆顶。

And he built this building with had a, a golden dome on the top.

当时建好的时候，它是世界上最高的建筑。

And at the time it was built, it was the tallest building in the world.

既是纽约市最高的建筑，也是世界上最高的建筑。

Both the tallest building in New York City and the tallest building in the world.

挺有意思的。

It was kind of funny.

它当时就建在《纽约太阳报》总部的旁边，那份报纸的主编叫查尔斯·达纳，是个挺爱抱怨的老头，而且不太喜欢普利策。

It was built right next to the, the, the headquarters of the New York Sun, which, was a paper edited by a guy named Charles Dana, who was a kind of a curmudgeon and, didn't like Pulitzer much.

所以他们之间有过竞争，但《世界报》比《太阳报》规模大得多。

And so they had a rivalry, but the world was much bigger than the sun.

所以有人说，普利策都能往《太阳报》上吐口水了。

So it said, well, Pulitzer can spit down on the sun.

不过话说回来，我正在为写书做研究，这栋楼当时可是世界第一高楼。

But anyway, I'm researching, researching the book, and this is the tallest building in the world now.

现在已经不存在了。

It doesn't exist anymore.

很多年后，为了修建布鲁克林大桥的引桥，它被拆掉了。

Many years later, it was knocked down to build an approach for the Brooklyn Bridge.

我在读资料的时候就想，这楼到底有多少层呢？

And I'm reading well, how many stories did it have?

我一直在翻这些资料。

And I'm reading these, resources.

哦，它有，我记不清具体数字了。

Oh, it had, I don't remember the numbers.

它有15层。

It had 15 stories.

等等，这本书上写的是十四层，十五层。

And wait a minute, this other book, fourteen, fifteen.

然后我又碰到一个资料，说是20层。

Then I encountered one, but it had 20 stories.

什么？

What?

什么？

What?

那可是当时世界上最著名的建筑。

It's the most famous building in the world at the time.

我居然连一个可靠的资料都找不到，说它到底有多少层。

And I can't even find a reputable source as to how many floors it had.

而且这也就是，大概，十九世纪八十年代、九十年代，1900年。

And this is only, like, eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, 1,900.

这不是两千年前的事。

This is not 2,000 years ago.

这让我深刻体会到，历史——我虽然热爱历史，但要知道真正发生了什么，实在太不可靠了。

And that really impressed on me that history is it I love history, but it's so unreliable to know what actually happened.

我是说，我热爱历史的地方在于它充满了故事。

I mean, history I love about history is it's full of stories.

充满了精彩的故事。

It's full of great stories.

而且，你可以拿来用，改一改，再讲出去。

And, you can take them and change them around and use them.

这些都是创作的素材。

They're all grist for the meal.

但有些最精彩的故事，其实有很多疑点。

But there's a lot of doubt about some of best stories.

这些故事可能是后来由歌手、说书人或者某个想表达观点的历史学家编造出来的，或者你知道，就是添油加醋，往某个方向渲染一下。

They may have been invented later by singers or storytellers or some historian who wanted to make a point or, you know, color it one way or the other.

而且

And

你读的历史越多，就会发现越多的矛盾之处。

the more you read about history, the more inconsistencies you had.

所以我觉得在《火与血》里也这么写会很有趣。

So I thought it would be fun to do that in Fire and Blood.

所以当我在讲述这里发生的事情时，你知道，我会想接下来可能会发生什么。

So when I'm, I'm relating what happened here, you know, and I'm, I'm thinking about what can happen.

嗯，我希望这会很棒。

Well, I hope this would be great.

这会非常离谱。

This would be really outrageous.

会是这样，但可能太离谱了，太离谱了。

It would be, and then it's probably too outrageous, too outrageous.

这大概就是更现实的版本。

Here's probably what the more realistic version of it.

等等，这个版本把弗雷德写成坏人，比尔写成好人，而那个版本把比尔写成坏人，弗雷德写成好人。

Now wait a minute, this, this version makes Fred the villain and Bill the hero, and this version makes Bill the villain and Fred the hero.

然后我突然想到，为什么不把所有版本都写出来呢？

And then at some point it hit me, why don't I give all versions?

因为历史是不确定的。

Because history is uncertain.

我把所有版本都写出来，对我来说也很有趣。

I'll give all versions, and it'll be fun for me.

我可以把蘑菇视角里那些特别离谱、特别八卦的东西都写进去。

I can put in all the really outlandish, girlish thing that the way Mushroom sees it.

但我也可以写那些可能更接近事实的。

But I can also put in the things that are probably more

它们都是史料来源。

They're sources.

对。

Yeah.

所以这样对那些喜欢这种风格的人来说还行，虽然有些人不喜欢。

So and that worked fine for those who like that thing, although some don't.

但如果我是把它写成小说，如果我是以《小代价》和《火》那种书的形式来写，比如我现在正在写的《凛冬的寒风》，我的意思是，当我写到《凛冬的寒风》的某一章，我知道会发生某件事，那么它是怎么发生的呢？

But if I was writing it as a novel, if I'd been writing this in a, in the form of, the books in The Small Price and Fire, like Winds of Winter, which I'm writing now, I mean, when I get to a chapter of Winds of Winter, and I know something's gonna happen, well, how does it happen?

我会想到哪些可能性？

What are what are the things I think of?

我可以这样写，也可以那样写。

I could do it this way or I could do it that way.

我必须做出决定。

I have to make up my mind.

在《火与血》里，我不需要做出

In Fire and Blood, didn't have to make

决定。

up my mind.

但瑞恩和米格尔在改编的时候，基本上得自己拿主意。

But Ryan and Miguel, when they're adapting it, they largely had to make up their mind.

对。

Mhmm.

我们其实在很早很早以前，最开始的时候，有过一些想法。

We did have some intro way back in the beginning, way, way back in the beginning.

实际上，在瑞恩之前还有别的编剧参与过，当时我们讨论过一些有趣的点子，关于怎么呈现《火与血》里的内容。

Actually, there were previous writers on it before Ryan, but there were some interesting discussions about, how we could present the material in Fire and Blood.

而且，你知道，你可以用《罗生门》那种方式，如果你知道那个典故的话。

And, you know, you could do it, the Rashomon way, if you know that reference.

对，就是同一个故事讲出好几个版本。

Yeah, Present multiple versions of the same story.

我们也可以用框架叙事，把学城的吉尔丹学士加进去。

We could also have done a frame device where we could have included Archmaester Gildan.

就像《我，克劳狄乌斯》那样，那是我最喜欢的电视剧之一。

And, just like in I, Claudius, one of my favorite TV shows.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

每一集都是以克劳狄斯写历史为框架，然后闪回到他写的内容。

Every episode is framed by Claudius writing his history, and then you flash back to what he wrote.

但我们本来可以让吉尔丹学士带着他那些原始资料到处晃悠。

But we could have had Archmaester Gildan with all of his primary sources dottering around.

嗯，我本来可以把它写进去的。

Well, I could do it in.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

但是有……还有这个……你也可以做……但是，

But there's And this other and you could have done But,

那会很有趣的。

It would have been real fun.

本来会是的。

It would have been.

那本来会很有趣的。

It would have been fun.

但遗憾的是，现在真的没人想再用克劳狄斯那种框架叙事的手法了。

But, sadly, nobody really wants to do the frames framing kind of device anymore with, Claudius.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得《最后的决斗》最近算是用了类似的手法。

Last Duel did it, I suppose, kind of recently.

有一点那种感觉。

A little bit of that.

确实。

They did.

对。

Yes.

那部电影对那个题材的处理挺有意思的。

That was a that was an interesting, take on that.

我喜欢那部电影。

I like that movie.

不过我觉得观众可能不太买账。

I'm not sure the world did though.

确实票房不太好。

It didn't do that well.

对，就是那样。

It was yeah.

因为疫情，当时……

COVID, it was

对。

Yeah.

它上映的时候，你知道，

It got little, you know,

但它的表现并不算特别好。

but it didn't do super well.

确实没有。

Was not.

对。

Yeah.

所以你刚才说到，写《火与血》这种历史题材，写作方式很不一样。

So you talked you're talking about how, you know, working on fire and blood is history, and it's very different to write.

我们节目里想强调的一个概念叫“平行人生”，就是说历史中有些人物和现在的角色有相似之处。

One thing that we like to highlight in our show is something called parallel lives, which is the idea that there are parallels in your histories to current characters.

你有没有……

Do you have you

你从普鲁塔克那里找到这个说法的，对吧？是的。

You found sold that from Plutarch, didn't Yes.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

那些书我年轻得多的时候都读过。

I read those all when I was a lot younger.

当时就

Fell in

爱上了它们。

love with them.

好眼力。

Good catch.

我喜欢把它应用到

I love to apply it to to

所以我们在《冰与火之歌》里也看到了这一点。

So we we we've observed it in A Song of Ice and fire.

你在写《火与血》的时候，有没有发现这能让你在主线系列里更灵活地处理情节线或角色弧光？

Have you found that in, like, writing fire and blood that it allows you to maybe play with plot lines or arcs for the characters in the main series?

你是有意识地这么做的吗？

Do you do that consciously?

没有。

No.

我没有。

I don't.

没有。

Don't.

我不是有意识地这么做的。

I don't do it consciously.

有意思。

Interesting.

我是说，某些相似之处是不可避免的。

I mean, certain similarities are inevitable.

是的。

Yes.

那是肯定的。

That's for sure.

如果有的话，我尽量避开那些，因为我不想觉得自己在重复自己。

If anything, I try to veer away from that because I don't wanna feel like I'm, repeating myself.

对。

Right.

但历史就是会自然重演。

But history just naturally repeats itself.

嗯，是的。

So Well, yes.

历史中确实有一些共鸣，而且关于人性也有一些普遍的东西，你知道，人们争夺权力，争夺爱情，欲望。

There there are certain resonances in history, and, there are certain, universals about humanity, you know, people competing for power, people competing for love, lust.

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些东西。

All of these all of these things.

其中一些

Some of these

例子，是的。

examples Yeah.

有时候人们会说，那是刻板印象，或者那是老套。

Sometimes people are like, that's a stereotype, or that's cliche.

我就说，那是因为它符合人类的真实体验。

I'm like, that's because it's true to the human experience.

它就是真实的。

It's just true.

一个手握大权的人多疑，那是

A person in with a lot of power being paranoid, that's

对，那是很自然的。

Yeah, that's natural.

这种情况经常发生。

That happens a lot.

对。

Yeah.

这在现实世界的历史中也很常见，或者说在致敬作品里也是。

That also applies a lot to regular, to real world history I suppose or to to homages.

那你在写致敬作品的时候呢？

What about when you're writing in an homage?

比如，我最喜欢的一个场景是你在布兰的夜堡场景中，似乎有很多对托尔金和《魔戒》中莫瑞亚矿坑的致敬，我特别喜欢那个场景。

For example, one of my favorites is you've included in the Nightfort scene with Bran, there seems to be a lot of homages to Tolkien and the Minds of Moria in that scene which I love a lot.

这是你有意为之的吗？

Is that also something, did you aim to do that?

还是说也是无意中写出来的？

Or is that also kind of accidental?

或者你对自己在那里的创作过程有什么想法？

Or maybe you have some thoughts on your process there.

嗯，我很喜欢托尔金，而且《魔戒》中莫瑞亚矿坑那段确实是我最喜欢的部分之一。

Well, love Tolkien and actually the Minds of Moria is one of my favorite, favorite sections of, Fellowship with Rings.

那是我最喜欢的一部，三部曲里我最喜欢《护戒使者》。

And that's that's my favorite of the of the trilogy fellowship.

不是说我不喜欢其他两部。

Not that I don't love them all.

对。

Yeah.

但我并不是刻意要那样做的。

But I don't think I was consciously trying to do that.

再说，你也不知道。

Again, you don't know.

我的意思是，你读这些东西，它们有时候会留在你脑海的前面，但有时候会藏在某个奇怪的角落里，然后在某个时刻突然冒出来。

I mean, you read these things and they lodge, sometimes in the front of your brain, but sometimes in weird corners of your brain where they pop up at, at some point.

我确实想，你知道，把那个地方写成一个阴森的地方，有它自己的传说。

I did wanna, you know, make the knife for a sinister place with its own legends.

它非常古老。

It was very old.

那是一座非常巨大的城堡，正在崩塌。

It's a very big castle crumbling.

我想让它给人一种感觉，就是这里发生过太多事情了。

And I wanted to give it that sense that so many things have, have gone here.

现在，哪些是真的，哪些不是真的。

Now, which are true and which are not true.

我的意思是，我不仅会看其他奇幻小说和历史，还会看现实世界。

I mean, I always tend to look at not only other fantasy books and history, but, like, the real world here.

我的意思是，我们有一些传说，有些人相信在我们的宗教里是真实存在的，我这么说可能会惹麻烦。

I mean, we, we have these, get me in trouble here for what I'm about to say, but we have these legends that some people believe are literally true in our religion.

你知道，我们谈论伊甸园。

Mean, you know, we talk about, the Garden of Eden.

真的有过伊甸园吗？

Was there ever actually a Garden of Eden?

真的有亚当和夏娃吗？

Was there an Adam and Eve?

或者，或者那个大洪水，诺亚和大洪水。

Or, or the, the flood, Noah and the flood.

这个例子不错。

That's a good one.

我是说，那是个很棒的故事。

I mean, that's a great story.

上帝当时很生气。

God was pissed off.

他让雨下了四十天四十夜。

He made it rain for forty days and forty nights.

整个世界都被淹了。

The entire world was flooded.

所有人都死了，除了这个叫诺亚的人，他造了一艘大船，把地球上的每种动物都带了两只上船。

And everybody died except for this guy, Noah, who built a big boat and he got two of every animal on earth.

我不知道袋鼠是怎么从澳大利亚跑到中东去的，但它们确实去了。

I don't know how the kangaroos got it down to Australia, to the Middle East, but they, but they did.

连蚊子都有。

Even the mosquitoes.

连蚊子都有。

Even the mosquitoes.

每种动物都带了两只。

They had two of everything.

而且这个故事特别精彩。

And it's a terrific story.

瑞奇·热维斯有个特别搞笑的段子，就是拿这个开涮的。

Ricky Gervais has a a very funny bit where he makes fun of it in one of his things.

但说到底，它就是个故事。

But it's a story.

是个很生动的故事。

It's a it's a colorful story.

当然，近年来有些考古学家说，可能是在公元前两千年某个地方，底格里斯河和幼发拉底河发过大水。

And, of course, there have been some archaeologists in recent years who have said, well, it could be that, you know, at a certain place in two thousand BC, the Tigris and the Euphrates flooded.

而两河之间的土地并不是整个世界，但底格里斯河和幼发拉底河，然后发生了一场洪水，也许还有考古发现。

And the land between them was not the entire world, but the Tigris and the Euphrates, and then there was a flood and maybe archaeology.

所以这些东西有时是有来源的。

So these things sometimes have a source.

对。

Mhmm.

但是，这和故事本身不是一回事。

But, that's not the same as as as the story.

故事更大、更精彩，就像故事通常那样。

The story is is bigger and more colorful as stories tend to be.

我的意思是，如果我要挑一个历史事件来改编，就像我经常在采访中说的，我会把它调到11。

I mean, if I'm picking on something for history to adapt to it, as I I've often said in interviews, I turn it up to 11.

是的。

Yeah.

或者我会把它调到111。

Or I turn it up to 111.

因为你永远不想把它变小。

Because you don't ever wanna make it smaller.

你懂吗？

You know?

我要写一个故事，你知道，有点像十字军东征，但我会在色彩上把它变小。

I'm gonna do a story that'll be, you know, kind of just like the Crusades, but I'll I'll make it smaller in color.

你必须让它更大更酷。

You have to make it bigger and cooler.

否则，直接去读关于真实十字军东征、玫瑰战争、无政府状态或任何这些事件的历史小说就好了。

Otherwise, just read the historical fiction about the actual crusade or the Wars and Roses or the Anarchy or any of the, any of these things.

你有没有

Do you

读过一些非虚构的关于这些事件的作者或资料？

have any authors or sources that you've read that were like non fiction accounts of those?

我觉得你推荐过，

I think you think you recommended,

有很多

there's a lot of

雪莉·K.

Sherry K.

很多年前在你的博客上，我读了她写的所有东西，在你之后我也都读了。

Penman many years ago in your blog, and I've I've read everything she wrote after you

对，她写了一本关于无政府状态的好书。

read Yeah, and she wrote a great book about the anarchy.

人子，是的。

Son of man, yeah.

当基督，对。

When Christ, yep.

还有圣徒安睡。

And the saints slept.

那很美。

That's beautiful.

斯蒂芬和玛蒂尔达。

Stephen and Matilda.

他写了一本很棒的书。

He has a terrific book.

另一个对我影响很大的作家是托马斯·B。

Another author I had a lot of influence was Thomas B.

科斯坦。

Costain.

他当时是个非常受欢迎的作家。

Now, he was a very popular author.

你有没有

Did you

给埃莉诺·科斯坦、豪斯·科斯坦起名，是随他吗？

name Eleanor Costain, House Costain, after him?

这是故意致敬吗？

Is that a reference on purpose?