一位一战前的法国哲学家比猫王更受欢迎，并可能促使美国加入大战

这里是斯科特，为您带来新一期的《历史直击》播客。

Scott here with another episode of the history unplugged podcast.

1913年纽约，法国哲学家亨利·柏格森在哥伦比亚大学演讲，引发万人空巷、交通瘫痪，甚至有人因争抢座位而昏厥。

In New York City 1913, French philosopher Henri Bergson gave a lecture at Columbia University, resulting in fanfare, traffic jams, and even fainting spells among the thousands of people clamoring for a seat.

这并非柏格森唯一的高光时刻。

This wasn't Bergson's only taste of celebrity.

1891年他结婚时，马塞尔·普鲁斯特担任了他的伴郎。

When he got married in 1891, Marcel Proust served as his best man.

1917年，法国政府派他赴美游说伍德罗·威尔逊加入一战。

'17, the French government sent him to The United States to convince Woodrow Wilson to join World War I.

二十世纪二十年代初，他曾与爱因斯坦就时间的本质展开辩论。

In the early nineteen twenties, he debated the nature of time with Albert Einstein.

他曾是国际名人，其关于变革中的工业化世界里创造力与自由的哲学广受欢迎，主张当万物都被认知时宇宙仍存魔力——但如今在英语世界已鲜为人知。

He was once an international celebrity, popular for his philosophy of creativity and freedom in a changing, industrialized world, and arguing that there was still enchantment in the universe when everything was becoming recognized, but he's since faded into obscurity among English speakers.

如今只有哲学界记得他。但随着本世纪人脸识别、人工智能和社会信用评分等新科技引发人们对自由与人性的忧虑，柏格森的著作正重新受到关注。

He's only known among philosophers, but as this century's new scientific discoveries have introduced facial recognition and AI and social social credit scores, making many fear about freedom and humanity, some of Bergson's writings have started to make a comeback.

今天的嘉宾是《人民的哲学家：亨利·柏格森如何将哲学带给大众》的作者艾米丽·赫林。

Today's guest is Emily Herring, author of Herald of a How Henri Bergson Brought Philosophy to the People.

我们将探讨这位曾短暂比猫王更轰动的哲学家的兴衰史，及其思想对当下的启示。

We look at the resin fall of a philosopher who for a brief period was bigger than Elvis and what his arguments have to say for today.

希望您喜欢本次讨论。

Hope you enjoyed this discussion.

节目正式开始前，先插播一条赞助商信息。

And one more thing before we get started with this episode, a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

今年圣诞节，送出超越礼物的心意。

This Christmas, give more than just a gift.

给予鼓励、启迪与欢乐。

Give encouragement, inspiration, and joy.

在《十字路口》节日礼物指南中，您将发现精选的信仰主题书籍与灵修读物，颂扬信仰、家庭与圣诞真谛。

In the crosswalk holiday gift guide, you'll discover a curated collection of meaningful books and devotionals that celebrate faith, family, and the real reason for the season.

这个圣诞节，我们邀您为每位收礼人传递慰藉、宁静或欢欣。

This Christmas, we invite you to share comfort, quiet, or excitement with each person on your gift list.

从精美插画版圣经灵修书到小说绘本，这份指南为每位读者（包括您自己）都准备了完美读物。

From beautifully illustrated Bibles and devotionals to novels and picture books, this guide holds the perfect book for every reader, including yourself.

将这些故事塞进圣诞袜，用包装纸裹住文集，在自己床头放一两本书，与我们共同庆祝这个圣诞阅读的美好时光。

So stuff those stories into stockings, wrap collections with pair, tuck a book or two into your own nightstand, and join us in celebrating the wonder of reading this Christmas.

浏览《十字路口》节日礼物指南，为清单上的每个人找到独特心意。

Explore the Crosswalk holiday gift guide and find something special for everyone on your list.

立即访问 crosswalk.com/giftguide。

Visit crosswalk.com forward slash gift guide today.

在节目开头介绍主题时，我通常会寻找与当下现实的切入点，表明该主题以我们尚未理解的方式影响着当下，然后由此回溯到书籍主题。

At the top of an episode, when I introduce the topic, I usually try to find a hook to something present day, showing that the topic in question matters in ways we don't understand, and then we work backwards from there to the book topic.

这次我们讨论哲学，但我不太确定如何谈论当代哲学现状——我不确定它现在在学术界之外是否比以往更受大众关注，还是更边缘化。

And in this case, we're talking about philosophy, but I wasn't quite sure how to talk about the present day state of philosophy because I'm not quite sure if it's more relevant now outside of the academic world than the popular world than it's ever been or if it's less relevant.

一方面，确实有很多人在阅读斯多葛主义相关书籍。

I mean, on the one hand, there are lots of people reading books about stoicism.

还有像Stoicon这样的研讨会，以及瑞安·霍利迪基于《权力的48条法则》创作的畅销书《障碍即道路》。

There's conferences like Stoicon, bestselling books like Ryan Holiday's The Obstacle Is The Way based on the 48 laws of power.

例如托马斯·阿奎那从未像现在这样受欢迎，不仅在 Catholicism 中，

Thomas Aquinas, for example, has been never more popular, not just in Catholicism, but

在

in

新教和复兴亚里士多德主义中也是如此。

Protestantism and revitalizing Aristotelianism.

但另一方面，哲学可能从未像现在这样不受欢迎。

But on the other hand, philosophy maybe has never been less popular than before.

它曾是公共教育逻辑阶段的基石，但在公共教学形式中已基本消亡。

It used to be a cornerstone of public education in the logic phase, but it's mostly gone extinct in the public form of teaching.

因此在我们探讨一位伟大的哲学普及者之前，您认为当前哲学现状如何？亨利·柏格森会对当今局面感到欣慰还是失望？

So before we look at one of the great popularizers of philosophy, what do you think is the current state of philosophy and whether Henri Bergsons would be glad at the state of affairs today or perhaps disappointed?

嗯，是的，你刚才提到了一些很好的观点。

Well, yeah, you made some good points there.

我认为可悲的是，哲学确实已不再占据它曾经的核心地位。

I think, sadly, it is true that philosophy does not sort of occupy such a central position as it once did.

我来自法国，情况略有不同——在法国，学生直到高中最后一年仍在接受哲学教育。

I come from France, so that's a slightly different situation because in France, students are still taught philosophy in high school up until sort of their final year of high school.

我们依然有公共哲学家，尽管没人能达到柏格森当年的知名度。

And there's still we still have public philosophers even though none of them as famous as, for instance, Bergson once was.

我感觉当今的流行思想家——即公众视野中的知识分子——往往很多都是科学家。

I get the sense that nowadays, popular thinkers, so sort of intellectuals in the public view, tend to, a lot of the time, actually be scientists.

因此科学普及者似乎比哲学家拥有更大的权威。

So people who who are popularizing science tend to perhaps have greater authority than a philosopher would.

我可能错了，但我确实感觉到，哲学家们过去确实拥有更大的权威，知识权威，并且是以那种方式被看待的。

I might be wrong about that, but I I get the sense that, yeah, philosophers definitely used to have a greater authority, intellectual authority, and were viewed as in that ways.

所以我认为贝松对当前这种状况肯定不会感到高兴。

So I don't think Besson would be happy at all about this current state of affairs.

那么，让我们回顾一下他是如何改变这种状况的。

Well, let's look at going backwards how he did change the state of affairs.

你的书以一个非常有趣的场景开篇。

Then your book opens with a really interesting scene.

那是一个经济学研究者保罗·勒鲁瓦·贝利约的讲堂，场面很无聊。

There's a lecture hall of, I think, a researcher on economics, Paul Leroy Belieu, and it's boring.

非常枯燥。

It's dry.

关键是通过对比来展现亨利·柏格森如何改变了这一切。

And the point being with contrast that Henri Bergson changes this.

你能描述一下他登场前的场景和更广泛的状况吗？

So could you mention the scene and the wider state of affairs before he enters the scene?

好的。

Yeah.

这个可怜的家伙保罗·勒鲁瓦·贝利约，当时在法兰西公学院授课——这是个相当特别的机构，直到今天还在举办公开讲座。

So this poor guy, Paul Leroy Beaulieu, who was lecturing at the College de France, which is a quite odd institution, which still to this day, it offers public lectures.

所以过去和现在任何人都可以参加，基本上是该领域的专家进行讲座。

So anyone could and can still attend, and it's sort experts in their field lecturing.

这家伙讲授的是政治哲学经济学，但来听他课的人并不多。

This guy was lecturing in sort of political philosophy economy, and not very many people were attending his lectures.

但突然间，他开始看到越来越多的人，这让他感到惊讶。

But then suddenly, he started seeing more and more people, and this came as a surprise to him.

但他很快意识到，那里的人实际上都不是来听他讲话的。

But he soon realized that none of the people there were actually there to listen to him.

随后不久便发现，他们是为紧接着他之后的讲座——伯特兰的讲座——来占座的。

And then it soon transpired that they had come to save a seat for the lecture that was right after his, which was Bertrand's lectures.

因此伯特兰也是法兰西学院的哲学教授。

And so Bertrand was also a professor at the College de France as a philosopher.

他起初教授一些古典古代哲学，后来获得了现代哲学讲席——这正是他真正想要的职位。

He started teaching sort of classic ancient philosophy, and then he got the the chair of modern philosophy, which is the one he really wanted.

与勒鲁瓦·巴利欧相反，成百上千的人会来听贝松的讲座，这种现象很快不仅成为全国性现象，更演变为国际现象。

And contrary to Leroy Ballioux, hundreds and hundreds of people would show up to Besson's lectures, and this was this soon became a sort of not only national phenomenon, but international phenomenon.

我们说的是大约1910至1914年间，那时他的名声达到顶峰，甚至有照片显示法兰西学院建筑外，人们爬上窗台聆听，并在楼外排队试图入场。

So we're talking sort of around between 1910 and 1914 was really the peak of his fame, and it was to the point that there are photos of sort of the outside of the building at the College de France with people sort of climbing up on the window ledge to listen in and queuing outside the building to try and get in.

有报道称，由于教室里人太多，导致有人晕倒。

There were reports of people fainting because there were so many people in the room.

正如我所说，当伯格森前往美国时，这种现象也被带到了美国。

And this, as I said, was exported to The US when Bergson traveled to The United States.

在1913年。

In 1913.

他进行了系列讲座，其中在哥伦比亚大学的一场据说引发了百老汇史上首次交通堵塞——考虑到1913年的汽车状况和当时汽车的数量，这相当令人印象深刻。

He gave lectures, and one of them in particular that he gave at Columbia University is said to have caused the first ever traffic jam on Broadway, which is pretty impressive if you consider, you know, what cars were like in 1913 and how many of them there would have been at that time.

这确实相当了不起。

That's pretty impressive.

可以说，他是我们称之为摇滚巨星般的人物，要知道，那还是在摇滚明星这个概念出现之前，就因其哲学思想而闻名——这确实令人意外，正如我们提到的，因为当今已少有如此风靡的哲学家了。

So, yeah, he was a what we would call a rock star, you know, before rock stars even existed for his philosophy, which does come as a surprise as we've mentioned because there aren't many rock star philosophers nowadays.

让我们先了解一些背景，以理解他在思想界和哲学界的地位。

Let's get some context to understand his place in the intellectual world and the philosophical world.

十九世纪末正经历着翻天覆地的变化。

There's so much change happening in the late nineteenth century.

当时有数百甚至上千本著作记录了哲学领域的变革思潮，这些思想如何影响着政治科学等新兴领域——如今我们视为独立学科的领域，如社会学、政治学等，大多脱胎于哲学。

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of books about intellectual history of the different change of philosophy happening at the time, how they're affecting emergent fields of political science and what we consider distinct academic departments today, sociology, political science, other fields, largely emerge from philosophy.

在这个时期，哲学与政治相互交织，催生了民族主义等固化概念。

And they emerge at this time period as philosophy is intersecting with politics and solidifying ideas like nationalism.

亨利·柏格森对此有着深远影响，我们稍后会看到，甚至直接影响了一战主要参战国的外交政策。

And Henri Bergson has a lot of influence on this as we're going to see later and even directly on the foreign policy in the major players of World War one.

但总体而言，能否描述下贝尔莱帕克时期的思想生活、主流思潮，以及柏格森在其中所处的地位？

But broadly speaking, could you describe the intellectual life, the main ideas during the Baerlepak and what place Bergson finds himself in there?

没错。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为罗素及其巨大成功，或许反映了世纪之交（十九世纪末二十世纪初）普遍存在的焦虑情绪——后来被社会学家韦伯描述为'祛魅'现象，即科技发展与生活机械化正逐渐消解世界的奇迹与神秘感。

So I tend to think of Bertrand and his immense success as perhaps a symptom of a general anxiety that was gripping a lot of people at sort of the the turn of the century, so late nineteenth, early twentieth century, that was later described by sociologist Weber as this feeling of disenchantment, the idea that science and technology and the mechanization of of the world and of lie of human lives was ridding the world of sort of wonder, mystery.

同时，人们也感觉到科学（尤其是量化方法）正在渗透到它此前未曾涉足的领域。

And, also, there was this sense that science and quantification in particular was kind of seeping into areas that it hadn't previously dared to enter.

比如实验心理学，还有引发广泛焦虑的进化论——它确实从根本上动摇了我们对自己的认知。

So with if you think about sort of experimental psychology, but also evolutionary theory, which was a big one that people were anxious about, really, because it kind of brought into question everything we we thought we knew about ourselves.

当时弥漫着这种焦虑感和人性丧失的忧虑。

So there was all this sort of anxiety and this sense of losing one's humanity.

在这样的背景下，柏格森提出的哲学常被错误地描绘成反科学的。

And in the midst of all of that, Bergson was proposing a philosophy often wrongly portrayed as anti science.

这与事实相去甚远，因为他实际上在每本著作中都融入了实证研究成果，绝非反科学之人。

That's the furthest possible from the truth really, because he incorporated sort of empirical findings in in every single one of his books, and he was really far from being anti science.

但他确实质疑了量化理论和科学实证理论对意识、时间等问题拥有最终解释权的观念。

But he did challenge this notion that quantified theories, scientific empirical theories, should have the last say on questions like consciousness, time.

因此他极力主张哲学应与科学共存，二者应当共生协作。

And so he really pushed for this idea of philosophy as something that should coexist alongside science and sort of there should be some kind of cohabitation, really, but also a kind of collaboration between the two.

有些现实只有哲学家能洞察，而科学家则产出实际成果和测量数据——这些当然都非常重要。

So there are realities that the philosopher only can look at, and there are, obviously, the scientists produce, you know, practical results and measure, and all of this is very important.

但在所有量化分析之下，仍存在值得关注的现实层面，唯有哲学家能触及。

But beneath all of this quantification, there are still realities that deserve to be looked at, and only the philosopher can do that.

因此我认为，孙在当时这个祛魅的世界里被视为希望的力量。

So I think that Sun was seen as as force for hope in a sense in a disenchanted world.

他的思想与当时涌现的科学突破完美契合。

And his ideas couple well with all the scientific breakthroughs that were happening at the time.

如今我们很难体会当时那些科学突破让世界显得多么光怪陆离。

And it's hard to, I think, appreciate how strange the new scientific breakthroughs at the time were making the world appear to be.

以物理学为例，牛顿体系数百年来都保持着简洁明晰的框架。

If you studied physics, for example, for centuries, the Newtonian system was very clean, very clear cut.

那时解释世界的原理都有着坚实的理论基础。

There were strong undergirded principles that explained the world.

如今在许多情况下，它们仍能非常充分地用速度、加速度等概念解释这个世界。

And in many cases today, they still very adequately explain the world with velocity, acceleration, everything else.

但当你接触到爱因斯坦的物理学和相对论时，就会理解诸如时间膨胀等现象——当一个人以接近光速运动时，他所经历的时间将与地球上静止的人截然不同。

But then you get with Einsteinian physics and relativity and understanding things like time dilation, where if one person is traveling near the speed of light, he will experience time much differently than someone who's stationary on Earth.

所以如果我以99%光速绕银河系飞行，可能只会衰老几年，而地球上的人却已历经几个世纪甚至千年。

So if I were to go around the galaxy at 99% the speed of light, I would only age a few years, but someone back on Earth could age centuries or millennia.

这一切都非常不可思议。

All of this is very strange.

这一切都非常怪异。

All of this is very odd.

然而柏格森用他的时间概念完美融入了这一理论，这或许是他思想体系中最值得探讨的亮点：关于绵延的构想，以及时间如何因观察立场不同而产生差异。

And yet Bergson, with his concept of time, is fitting into this perfectly, and that's perhaps one of his best ideas to explore his thought process, the idea of Dure and how time can differ from one standpoint to another standpoint.

虽然我这样解释听起来很单薄，但这其实是构建极其精密、深思熟虑的体系。

And if I just explain it that way, sounds very flimsy, but it's extremely well constructed, well thought out system.

那么你能描述下他对时间的阐述吗？包括如何契合当时的科学突破、他与爱因斯坦的通信往来，以及这些在当时意味着什么？

So can you describe his presentation of time, how it fit into the the breakthroughs that were happening, his correspondence with Einstein, and what it meant then?

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为有必要将柏格森置于更广阔的哲学史背景中来看——他的重大哲学突破在于颠覆了当时西方哲学的主流观点，即永恒不变之物优于变化之物的传统认知。

So I think it might be helpful to sort of to situate Berson within sort of the wider history of philosophy to say that his big sort of philosophical move was to subvert what until then had been the dominant view in Western philosophy, this idea that the immutable, the unchanging, the eternal is sort of superior that to change.

柏格森认为此前所有哲学家都未能充分重视变化，事实上事物并不像我们惯常认为的那样固定不变。

Bachchan thought that all of the philosophers before him had not paid enough attention to change, this idea that, actually, things are not as fixed as we like to think of them as.

因此，他哲学的核心观点之一源于他在19世纪80年代左右的一个认识：科学方程式中表现的时间根本不包含任何时间性。

And so one of the central ideas of his philosophy stemmed from his realization in the sort of in the eighteen eighties that time, as it is represented in scientific equations, did not contain any temporality at all.

要理解他的意思，他使用了一个思想实验，我认为这非常有用。

So to understand what he means by that, there's a a thought experiment that he uses, which I think is quite useful.

他设想了一种能够加速时间的超级强大存在。

So he imagines a sort of super powerful being capable of accelerating time.

想象一下，地球不是24小时自转一周，而是12小时自转一周，其他所有现象都按比例加速。

So imagine that instead of rotating on its axis in twenty four hours, the earth rotates in twelve hours, and that every other phenomenon accelerates proportionally.

巴芬说这对物理学家的方程式不会有任何影响，但对经历这种变化的人来说会有巨大差异，我们会明显感受到时间积累方式——我们对时间的体验——发生了巨大改变。

Baffin says that this would make no difference at all to sort of the equations of the physicist, but it would make a huge difference to the person experiencing that change, that there would be a huge change perceived in the way that time, our experience of time, accumulates.

他说我们会以某种方式意识到经验积累的减少，日出日落之间通常完成的过程发生了变化。

He says that we would realize in one way or another a decline in the usual storing up of experience, a change in the progress usually accomplished between sunrise and sunset.

因此他说，正是这种时间质性体验必须从科学家的方程式中剔除，也要从我们用来测量和谈论时间的日常语言中剔除。

And so what he says is that it's precisely the sort of qualitative experience of time that is has to be cut out of the equations of scientists and also from the everyday language we use to measure and talk about time.

因为如果我们不断回溯自己对时间的主观体验，就会像我说的那样，难以测量和讨论时间。

Because if we were constantly referring back to our subjective experience of time, it would be difficult to, as I said, to measure and to talk about it.

但他认为，不追求测量和产生实际结果的哲学家应该关注那种时间体验，那种变化体验，这实际上对理解不仅我们意识如何运作，还有生命和生物体等现象如何运作至关重要。

But he believed that the philosopher who does not seek to measure and to produce sort of practical results should be looking at that experience of time, that experience of change that actually is fundamental to understanding not only how our consciousness works, but also how phenomena like life and living organisms work.

所以他谈到当时的一些科学理论。

And so he you're talking about sort of the scientific theories of the day.

贝松真正深入研究的一个理论是进化论。

One of the theories Besson really engaged with was evolutionary theory.

在20世纪初，达尔文主义并不是唯一提出的进化理论。

So he in the early twentieth century, Darwinism wasn't the only sort of evolutionary theory being put forward.

当时存在几种相互竞争的理论，伯特兰在其著作《创造性进化》中对所有这些理论都进行了探讨。

There were several competing theories, and Bertrand engages with all of them in his book, Creative Evolution.

他对所有这些理论都持相当批判的态度，但这并非因为他反对进化论——事实上，进化论是他世界观的基础。

And he's quite critical of all of them, not in the sense that he was against evolution because, actually, evolution was fundamental to his view of reality.

相反，他认为所有这些关于生命的科学理论都遗漏了生命本质的某些基本方面，即这种永不停息、永不终止的变化。当你使用科学家们不得不采用的这些僵化概念时，这种变化是极难把握的——毕竟这是理解现实世界纷繁复杂的唯一方式。

But rather, he was saying all of these scientific theories of life are missing some sort of fundamental aspects of what life really is, and it's this sort of never ceasing, never ending change, which is very hard to grasp when you have sort of these quite rigid concepts that, again, scientists have to use because that's the only way of making sense of the overwhelming diversity of reality.

回到你提到的爱因斯坦，实际上在稍后的二十世纪二十年代初还发生过一个非常有趣的事件。

And to get back to Einstein that you mentioned, there's actually a very, yeah, interesting episode that happened slightly later, so sort of in the early nineteen twenties.

当时柏格森的名望已达顶峰，显然是在一战后。爱因斯坦于1922年来到巴黎，由于残留的反德情绪，他未被物理学会邀请，而是受到了哲学学会的邀请。

So this is at a time when Besson's fame has already peaked, so post World War one, obviously, and Einstein comes to Paris in 1922, and he is not invited by the Physics Society because of sort of lingering anti German sentiments, but he is invited by the Philosophical Society.

于是他前来做报告，随后被问及许多关于相对论的深奥哲学问题。

And so he comes and gives a presentation, and then he's asked lots of very difficult sort of philosophical questions about relativity.

比如：你对伊曼努尔·康德有何看法？

Things like, what do you think of Immanuel Kant?

你知道吗？

You know?

你如何理解康德哲学？它与相对论如何兼容？

What do you make of Kant, and how does it fit with relativity?

所有这些爱因斯坦可能毫无准备、不感兴趣或不愿回答的问题，他都给出了极其简短的答复，这让活动组织者相当紧张。

All these things that Einstein was probably not prepared for and not necessarily interested in or willing to answer anyway, so he was giving very short answers, which made the person who was organizing this event quite nervous.

最终他拉来了恰好也在场的柏格森参与讨论。

And so he eventually dragged Baek Sun, who happened to be there, into the conversation.

柏格森原本根本没打算参与。

Baek Sun had not planned on participating at all.

于是他开始了一段即兴阐述，非常雄辩地向爱因斯坦解释，他完全认同相对论的数学原理，对此毫无异议。

And so he launched into this sort of improvised expose where he explains sort of very eloquently to Einstein that he he completely agrees with the mathematics of relativity, and he sees no problem with it.

但这正是柏格森的一个主题思想：当科学家说完后，哲学家仍有许多话要说，尤其是关于时间的话题。

But that, and this is kind of a bit of a leitmotif for Bergson, this idea that once the scientist is done talking, the philosopher still has quite a lot to say, in particular about time.

于是他发表了这段冗长的即兴论述，而爱因斯坦只是简单地回应道'哲学家的时间并不存在'，这实在是相当具有毁灭性的反驳。

And so he had this very sort of long improvised expose to which Einstein simply responds, the time of the philosopher does not exist, which is quite, you know, devastating, really.

回顾这段插曲，两人似乎完全在自说自话，因为爱因斯坦的法语并不流利。

And so looking at that that episode, it really seems like both men were sort of talking past one another because Einstein's French wasn't very good.

很可能他没能完全理解柏格森试图表达的内容，甚至产生了一些误解，而且也没有像柏格森对待相对论那样认真对待柏格森的哲学思想。

So it's possible that he didn't sort of get everything that Berthand was trying to say to him and and probably misunderstood some of it, and also didn't engage seriously with with Bergson's philosophy as seriously as Bergson had engaged with with Einstein's theory.

但这确实对柏格森的职业生涯造成了毁灭性打击，随后引发了许多衍生辩论，最终形成的共识是爱因斯坦赢得了辩论，而柏格森根本不知所云——正如我之前提到的，这与事实相去甚远，因为柏格森数学造诣极高，可能是少数真正能读懂爱因斯坦理论并深入探讨的人之一。

But it kind of had a a devastating impact on Bergson's career overall because the sort of lots of satellite debates were launched, and the consensus after that was kind of that Einstein had won the debate and that Bergson didn't know what he was talking about, which, as I've sort of mentioned before, was kind of far from true because Bergson was extremely skilled at mathematics and was probably among the rare people who were actually able to read Einstein, you know, and engage with his theories seriously.

所以，这确实让人感觉像是错失了一个良机。

So, yeah, it's it cut that kind of feels like a a missed opportunity almost.

但我想表达的重点是——如果我说得太久你可以打断我，只是谈到这些让我很兴奋——尽管柏格森被贴上了反科学的标签，但他其实极其认真地研究当时的科学，甚至可以说他阅读的科学文献比哲学文献还多。

But the point I'd like to get across, and you can stop me if I'm going on for too long, I would just get very excited talking about all of these things, is that Bergson, despite having this reputation for being anti science, he engaged extremely seriously with the science of his day, to the point that I think he actually read more scientific literature than philosophical literature.

我认为他试图做的，是向科学家们展示：在他们的理论中，常常不自觉地遵循着某些哲学理论，而他希望揭示这一点。

And I think a lot of what he was trying to do was to show scientists that often in their theories, they were subscribing to philosophical theories without even realizing it, and he wanted to show them that.

我想，这就是他试图与爱因斯坦探讨的目的。

And that's what he was trying to do with Einstein, I think.

确实。

Right.

当时双方可能都没意识到如何进行有意义的对话。

At the time, both camps probably couldn't realize how they can meaningfully engage.

如今我们有了科学哲学这样的领域，试图融合这两个学科。

And now we have fields, philosophy of science, that attempt to merge these two fields.

但在当时，它们可能比现在更加割裂。

But at the time, they were probably more sundered than they are now.

他本可以为科学界做出许多贡献。

And he'd would have a lot to offer to a scientific community.

他关于时间的理论打破了几个世纪以来的哲学研究方法，还有你描述的变化概念。

His theory on time breaks from centuries of philosophical approach, his concept of change that you were describing.

但他也专注于重新赋予魅力，摆脱马克斯·韦伯所说的那种物质主义框架——即生活总是归结为物质现实。

But he's also focusing on reenchantments, on getting out of this materialistic framework that Max Weber talks about where life always comes down to a material reality.

回到他关于时间的理论，它是如何突破几个世纪的哲学探索的？为何如此与众不同？

I guess coming back to his theory on time, how does it break from centuries of philosophical inquiry, and how is it so different?

是因为他专注于变化这个概念吗？还是有其他突破传统的方式？

Is it because he focuses on this concept of change, or what are other ways that he breaks from this long tradition?

是的。

Yeah.

正如我最初提到的，他在某种程度上颠覆了西方哲学的主流观点。

So I mentioned at the very beginning, he sort of subverts the dominant view of Western philosophy.

更详细地说，当你想到西方哲学的主要代表人物时，会是柏拉图、笛卡尔这样的名字。

And to get a bit more in detail about that, if you think of sort of the main the big names that you think about when you think about Western philosophy, it will be names like Plato, like Descartes.

以这两位为例，他们的许多理论都基于这样的理念：比如柏拉图认为存在不同层次的现实，其中某些比其他的更真实——比如柏拉图式的理想形态，是对事物概念的理想化，永恒不变的理念。

And to focus on those two examples, a lot of what they were doing hinged on this idea that there would sort of for instance, Plato, this idea that there are different realms of reality, and some of them are more real than others in the sense that the sort of ideal Platonic forms, to idealize concepts of things, eternal unchanging ideas.

因此，一个包含所有可能桌子形态的'桌子概念'，比你在柏拉图所称的感知世界里看到的任何普通桌子都更完美纯粹。

So the concept of a table that kind of contains all possible iterations of a table is more perfect and pure than any old table that you're gonna see in what Plato calls the sort of sensible world, the world of of the senses.

类似地，但几个世纪后，笛卡尔坐在火炉前观察一块蜡，他观察到蜡在受热时发生的变化。

Similarly, but it's centuries later, Descartes, when he is sitting in front of his fire and he's observing a piece of wax, and he's observing the wax change with the heat.

因此，蜡会改变形状、质地，甚至颜色和气味。

So the wax changes shape, and it changes texture, and it even changes color and and smell.

他关注的重点在于，好吧。

What he's focused on there is to say, okay.

那么，我该如何给出一种蜡的定义，使其在所有变化之下依然成立？

So how can I produce a sort of definition of the wax that will persist underneath all of this change?

而柏格森所做的则是彻底颠覆这一点，他说，你们过分关注这种理想化的、所谓永恒的现实，但实际上这种现实并不存在，因为存在的只有变化本身。

And what Bergson does is he completely reverses that and says, you're focusing too much on this sort of idealized, you know, permanent reality that actually doesn't exist because all that there is is change.

变化之下没有任何固定不变的东西。

There's nothing fixed underneath the change.

若以我们的个性为例，对柏格森而言，并不存在某种人性基础，在其之上才发生各种事件和变化。

If you think of our personalities, there's no kind of for Bergson, there's no human nature on top of which, you know, things happen and change.

我们的整个个性就是这种变化。

Our whole personality is that change.

它体现在我们的行为、遭遇以及所做的选择中。

It's what we do and what happens to us and the choices we make.

并不存在一个承载事件发生的底层基质。

There's no substrate on top of which things are happening.

正在发生的事物本身就构成了现实。

It's just the things that are happening constitute reality itself.

现实即是变化，我认为这在19世纪末是相当激进的观念——尽管古希腊的赫拉克利特早已提出类似思想：人不能两次踏入同一条河流，不仅因为河水已流动远去，更因为第二次踏入时，你已是一个不同的人。

Reality is change, and I think that's quite a radical move in the late 19 twentieth century, even though the ancient Greek Heraclitus had already talked about the idea that, you know, you never step twice in the same river, not only because the river itself, you know, the water has moved on, but also you are a changed person the second time you you step in the river.

但在赫拉克利特与柏格森之间，鲜有人真正重视这种变化的概念。

But between Heraclitus and Berksen, not many had sort of given this idea of change enough attention.

如今你在过程哲学中能看到这种思想，学者们常在研究生命有机体的背景下探讨它。

And now it's something that you see in process philosophy, people who are focusing often in the context of thinking about living organisms.

但当代过程哲学家们并未给予柏格森应有的认可——我们或许会讨论他的理论，但柏格森尤其在英语世界已失宠，这很不幸，他未能获得应有的声誉。

But none of the current process philosophers really credit Bergson that much because we might discuss it at one point, but Bergson has sort of fallen out of favor in especially in the anglophone world, unfortunately, and and isn't getting his sort of due credit.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是斯科特。

Scott here.

我们将短暂休息，插播一条赞助商信息。

We're gonna take a short break for a word from our sponsors.

这个圣诞节，送出比礼物更珍贵的心意。

This Christmas, give more than just a gift.

传递鼓励、灵感与欢乐。

Give encouragement, inspiration, and joy.

《十字路口假日礼物指南》为您精选了一系列富有意义的书籍和灵修读物，颂扬信仰、家庭与圣诞的真谛。

In the Crosswalk Holiday Gift Guide, you'll discover a curated collection of meaningful books and devotionals that celebrate faith, family, and the real reason for the season.

今年圣诞，我们邀您为每位收礼人送去慰藉、宁静或惊喜。

This Christmas, we invite you to share comfort, quiet, or excitement with each person on your gift list.

从精美插画的圣经灵修书到小说绘本，这份指南为每位读者（包括您自己）都准备了完美的书籍。

From beautifully illustrated bibles and devotionals to novels and picture books, this guide holds the perfect book for every reader, including yourself.

所以把这些故事塞进圣诞袜，用包装纸裹好书卷，在自己床头放一两本，与我们共同庆祝这个充满阅读奇迹的圣诞节吧。

So stuff those stories into stockings, wrap collections with pair, tuck a book or two into your own nightstand, and join us in celebrating the wonder of reading this Christmas.

浏览《Crosswalk》节日礼物指南，为清单上的每个人挑选特别礼物。

Explore the Crosswalk holiday gift guide and find something special for everyone on your list.

立即访问crosswalk.com/gift guide。

Visit crosswalk.com forward slash gift guide today.

在这次讨论开始时，我们谈到他有多么受欢迎，以至于人们争相去听他的讲座，造成了交通堵塞。

Well, at the beginning of this discussion, we were discussing how popular he was that traffic jams resulted from people trying to get to his lectures.

他的讲座总是座无虚席。

He was filling up lecture halls.

听起来就像披头士狂热达到顶峰时的盛况。

It sounded like Beatlemania at its height.

但随后我们深入讨论了认识论的细节，听众可能会疑惑：等等。

And but then we went into a long detailed discussion of epistemology, and listeners might wonder, wait.

这是怎么回事？

What's going on here?

他为什么如此受欢迎？

Why was he so popular?

这是否完全是因为文化差异导致的品味不同？

Was this just a completely different culture that had different tastes?

就像二十世纪苏联时期，诗人能在足球场面对成千上万人表演，因为公众对此有强烈的压抑需求？

Kind of like how in the twentieth century in The Soviet Union, poets could perform in football stadiums in front of thousands of people because there was a huge pent up public desire for this?

还是仅仅因为他是个极具感染力的沟通者，擅长呈现内容——虽然我们称他为认识论学者可能听起来奇怪，但或许遗漏了关键细节？

Or was he simply such an effective communicator, and he was so good at presenting things that maybe it sounds strange if we describe him as an epistemologist, but we're missing crucial details.

就像如果我在2012年描述《江南Style》：'今年最大现象将是个微胖的韩国流行明星，长得像金正日，跳着骑马舞，几乎全韩语演唱，没人听得懂歌词。'

Sort of like if I were to describe Gangnam Style in 2012 as, oh, the biggest phenomenon of the year is gonna be this slightly overweight Korean pop star who looks like Kim Jong il, and he does a horse dance almost completely in Korean, and no one can really understand what he's saying.

如果我那么说，听起来就很荒谬。

If I say that way, then it sounds ridiculous.

但我会说，哦，这真是首朗朗上口的歌。

But I would say, oh, it's a really catchy song.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

行吧。

Fine.

我明白了。

I get that.

那他为什么这么受欢迎？

So why was he so popular?

我想说的是这个意思。

I guess what I'm trying to get at.

我是说，确实如此。

I mean, that's yeah.

如果你看看白松的照片，要是我告诉你这个长相古怪的中年秃顶法国人会因为谈论认识论成为全世界最出名的人，你也会觉得相当奇怪，而且这么想可能完全没错。

If you look at a photo of Baeksun and, you know, if I told you this sort of odd looking, you know, middle aged, bold Frenchman would become the most famous man in the world for talking about epistemology, you also would think that's quite strange, and probably rightly so.

因为正如你所说，这不仅仅是他哲学的内容。

Because, as you said, it's not just the content of his philosophy.

而且在很多情况下，他哲学的内容其实是次要的。

And in many cases, the content of his philosophy was actually sort of secondary.

这有点像围绕某件事产生的任何炒作或热潮。

It's kind of like any spad or any hype that happens around something.

某种程度上，过了一段时间后，这件事就超出了中心人物的控制。

It kind of escapes the control of the person at the center of it after a while.

所以他的讲课风格确实吸引了许多人，遗憾的是我们没有任何相关记录。

So there was definitely a sense in which his lecturing style did draw a lot of people, and sadly, we don't have any sort of record of that.

但据说他的演讲具有一种近乎旋律般的非凡魅力，而且他从不使用讲稿，能够凭空引出这些惊人的理论发展。

But he is said to have had this incredible sort of almost melodic quality to his speaking, and also he spoke without any notes, and he was able to draw seemingly from thin air all these incredible developments.

所以这确实起到了重要作用。

So that certainly played a part.

我认为他的讲座面向公众开放也是一个因素，尽管如我所说，这不足以完全解释现象，因为正如我们所见，他之前的讲师和其他法兰西学院的同事都不像他这样受欢迎。

I think also the fact that his lectures were public played a part even though, as I've mentioned, that isn't enough to explain it because as we've seen, you know, the person lecturing before him wasn't as popular and nor were any of his other colleagues at the College de France.

我们尚未提及的一个方面是，许多女性被他的讲座所吸引。

One aspect we haven't mentioned yet is that a lot of women were drawn to his lectures.

实际上有大量女性参加了他的讲座。

A huge amount actually of women attended his lectures.

当时有记者描述在茶馆里听到女性们聚在一起讨论柏格森的哲学思想。

You have sort of journalists describing going to tea houses and hearing women talk about, you know, gathering to talk about Baeksan's philosophy.

而这些女性常常被嘲笑，被描述成只是追逐时尚潮流却不理解其内涵的名媛。

And these women were often mocked and described as mere socialites who were going to the latest sort of fashionable thing without understanding any of it.

我认为这种评价很不公平，因为事实上她们中很多人确实有所领悟并受益匪浅。

And I think that's quite an unfair assessment because it seems that quite a lot of them actually did sort of understand and get a lot out of it.

甚至有些参与妇女参政运动的女性，将柏格森关于自由和创造力的思想视为滋养她们希望与理念的养分。

Even some women who were part of sort of suffragette movements, they viewed Bergson's ideas on freedom and creativity as a sort of as nourishment for their own hopes and ideas.

那么，究竟是什么让这种现象全球化，让这位谈论复杂理念的哲学家产生如此影响？

But so, yes, what actually happened for this phenomenon to become global and and for this philosopher talking about complicated ideas?

我认为其中一个方面在于，巴赫金的语言风格——无论是口语还是书面语——都体现了他坚信哲学应当用日常语言表达，以及他常认为隐喻性语言优于高度概念化的语言。这使得他的言论极具引用价值，因为他创造了许多生动的意象，这些理念仿佛能自行生长，完全脱离原有语境，被以各种远离巴赫金本意的方式使用。他似乎创造了一系列人们可套用于自身观点的流行语。

One aspect of it, I think, is that because of Bachchan's style, both spoken and written, the fact that he believed that philosophy should be expressed in everyday language, and also the fact that he believed that often metaphorical language was superior to heavily conceptual language, that meant that he was extremely quotable in the sense that he had these beautiful images that he used, like, these ideas that could then sort of take on a life of their own, be completely taken out of context, and used in all sorts of ways that were quite far away from far removed from what Bersin himself was saying, but he seems to have generated all of these sort of catchphrases that people could then apply to their own ideas.

看起来人们似乎在他的哲学中只看到他们想看到的东西。

There seems to have been people were sort of seeing what they wanted to see in his philosophy.

正如我所说，你会看到女权主义者、立体派、未来主义者、革命工团主义者、现代主义天主教徒等形形色色的人群和运动，都以巴赫金自己完全无法理解的方式宣称自己是巴赫金主义者。

So you'd have, as I said, the suffragettes, you'd have the cubists and the futurists and the revolutionary syndicalists and the modernist Catholics and sort of this extremely diverse array of people and movements claiming to be Barksonian in ways that Berthelsen himself didn't understand at all.

他从未以任何方式认可过这种现象。

He, in no way, even sort of condoned that.

你知道，他其实是个相当中庸的人。

He was, you know, quite middle of the road guy.

他只想专注于自己的哲学研究和教学，却被奉为——如我所说——立体主义、象征主义、女权主义和工团主义之父。

He just wanted to do his philosophy and teach his philosophy, and then he was being hailed as the father of, as I said, cubism, symbolism, feminism, syndicalism.

因此我认为，就像任何潮流一样，这里发生的事情有些混乱：它最初可能出于正当理由兴起，随后却像网络迷因般疯狂扩散，而你根本说不清其中机制。

And so I think, like, with any trend, there's just something a little bit chaotic here happening where it starts off probably for good reasons, and then it just multiplies in the way that, you know, memes multiply, and you're quite sure how that happens.

回到我早前提到的观点，在某个短暂时期，他确实成为了一个世代的代言人——这个世代认为自己身处祛魅的世界，渴望重获魔力，并相信贝尔桑正是带来这种重生的人。

And then to circle back to something I mentioned earlier, there is, I think, the sense in which he becomes, for a quite short period, the voice of a generation, the voice of a generation who believes that they are in a disenchanted world and a yearning for reenchantment and who believe that Baer san is the one who is bringing that.

虽然存在这些因素，但就像《江南Style》的走红一样，要准确归因总是困难的。

So there are all these factors, but it's it's always difficult to pinpoint, you know, as with Gangnam Style.

当艺术家的作品在完全出乎其预料的受众中引发共鸣时，这种现象总是耐人寻味。

It's interesting when an artist's art finds reception in audience he never expected nor understood.

J的情况也有些类似。

Something similar is J.

R

R.

R.

R.

托尔金与《魔戒》。

Tolkien with the Lord of the Rings.

我想他是在1971年去世的。

I think he died in 1971.

当时正值嬉皮士运动兴起几年，世界各地都在发生各种变革。

So this is a few years into the hippie movement and all the changes happening across the world.

他的神话体系融合了中世纪传说、《贝奥武夫》、芬兰民族史诗、理查德·瓦格纳等多种元素。

He based his mythology on medieval myth, Beowulf, the national saga of Finland's, Richard Wagner, all these different influences put together.

他的举止非常贵族化。

He was very aristocratic in his demeanor.

他持有严格的等级世界观，会反对一战结束后英国发生的多数政治变革。

He in a very hierarchical view of the world, he would have rejected most of what happened politically in England after World War one.

然而他的作品却在嬉皮士群体中引起惊人共鸣，成为幻想类运动的灵感源泉。

Yet his work had such incredible purchase among hippies and that type of movement and ideas of fantasy.

齐柏林飞艇乐队在多首歌曲中引用了《魔戒》内容。

Led Zeppelin references a lot of the lord of the rings and their songs.

因此托尔金晚年常对收到的读者来信感到困惑，他完全不认识这些人，有时作品被解读出近乎相反的含义。

So at the end of his life, Tolkien was very confused at the fan letters he would receive from people and had no idea who these people were and have sometimes an almost opposite meaning gleaned from his work.

伯格森是否也有类似经历？

Did Bergson have something similar?

他是否曾对作品引发的反响感到困惑？

Was he ever confused by the reception that his work found?

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我是说，首先他极度厌恶名声，因为他本质上是个喜爱宁静的人，非常讨厌噪音，却始终被喧嚣包围。

I mean, first of all, he absolutely hated fame in the sense that he was really someone who liked peace and quiet, and he really hated noise, and he just was surrounded by constant noise.

所以他痛恨这点，我认为他还厌恶的是，他的哲学思想被赋予了自己的生命，与他本意相去甚远，各种政治应用被强加于他的哲学，这完全违背他的信念。

So he hated that, and I think also what he hated was precisely this, this idea that his philosophy was taking on a life of its own, very far removed from anything he had intended, and all sorts of applications of his philosophy, political applications were being made, which was something that he really didn't believe in.

他曾多次明确表示，人的一生只够认真思考两三个问题。所以当记者追问他'您对当前这个现代议题怎么看'时——

He said quite explicitly a few times, in a human life, you only have time to really consider two or three problems, and so if journalists came up to him and asked him, you know, what do you think about this issue, this current modern issue?

他会说：'我需要几年时间思考这个问题，等我想清楚了再来问我。'

He would say, well, I need, you know, a couple of years to think about that, so come back later when I've had time to think about it.

因此，把他的思想抽离原有语境，生搬硬套到其他理念或议程上的做法，在他看来完全不可理喻。

So this idea that his ideas could be taken out of their context and sort of stuck onto other ideas or other agendas really didn't make sense to him.

当听说立体派画家推崇他的哲学时，他非常实在地回应：'我从未看过他们的画作。'

And, yeah, when he was told that the cubists loved his philosophy, you know, he quite genuinely said, I've never seen their paintings.

比起印象派或立体派这些20世纪初的艺术潮流，他显然更偏爱伦勃朗。

I don't you know, he much preferred Rembrandt to any of the impressionists or cubists or, you know, any of the movements that were going on in the early twentieth century.

所以他确实感到既困惑又恼火，最令他愤怒的是对其思想的简化解读——将他塑造成反科学、反理性的形象，我们之前已讨论过这完全不符合事实。

So he was, yeah, completely baffled and slightly annoyed, and the thing that annoyed him the most was these simplifications of his ideas that painted him as anti science, anti rationalist, which we've already said is sort of not the case.

但我想，每天见诸报端的感觉肯定相当可怕。

But I think, yeah, there must be something quite terrifying when you're being mentioned in the press every day.

幸好他那会儿还没有推特，当时他就已经不断被断章取义、曲解本意了。

Thank god for him, Twitter wasn't a thing at that at that point, because he was constantly being misquoted, misrepresented.

这其中必定有某种完全压倒性的因素，尤其对于一位从未想过走向全球化、公众化的严肃哲学家而言。

There there must be something completely overwhelming, especially if you are a serious philosopher who never intended sort of going, you know, so global, so public.

他工作的另一个方面涉及第一次世界大战前的民族主义狂热。

Another aspect of his work was on the nationalistic fervor in the run up to World War one.

他早期的战争演说中带有民族主义色彩，1917年他还执行过一项秘密任务——被法国政府派往美国说服伍德罗·威尔逊参战，单是这么说就让人觉得充满矛盾。

There were nationalistic undertones in his early war speeches, and he went on a secret mission in The US in 1917 when he was sent by the French government to convince Woodrow Wilson to join the war, which just saying it that way sounds confusing in many ways.

能否请您解析这段历史？当时究竟发生了什么？他这样做的动机是什么？那次会面具体情况如何？

So could you untangle that and explain what was happening, what would be his motivation to do so, and what that meeting was like?

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

这是他人生中最令人意外的面向之一。

So this is one of the aspects of his life that surprises people the most.

其他令人惊讶的轶事可能来不及提及，比如马塞尔·普鲁斯特曾担任他的伴郎。

There are other surprising aspects that we probably won't have time to mention, but, you know, that he was the best man at his wedding was Marcel Proust, for instance.

他与爱因斯坦的辩论也常让人感到意外。

That often surprises people, his debate with Einstein.

但在我看来，这个事件堪称他生平最离奇的经历之一。

But this, I think, takes you know, is up there as one of the weirdest aspects of his life.

首先关于战争演说。

So first on the war speeches.

战争爆发时，柏格森正担任著名学术机构的院长——我在思考这个头衔该如何准确翻译。

So when the war broke out, Berczon was he was president of the prestigious Academie of sort of I'm trying to think what the translation would be.

道德科学学院（Academie desciants morale politiques），即道德科学院，是一个非常显赫的职位。

Academie desciants morale politiques, so Academy of Moral Science very prestigious position.

因此他以院长身份发表这些演讲，作为这个学术团体的领袖。

And so he was giving these speeches as president of this academy, learned society.

正如我刚才提到的，他始终坚持拒绝应用自己的哲学，却出人意料地运用了关于生命力与机械论的学说，将法国及其盟友比作人类生命力的代表，而将德国描述为野蛮且机械化的存在。

And he, had always refused to apply his philosophy, as I just mentioned before, made a very surprising move of using his ideas about vitality versus mechanism, and applies them to sort of France and its allies versus Germany as so he describes Germany as, you know, barbarian and sort of mechanistic in nature, and then France and its allies as carrying the vital impetus of sort of humanity.

他发表了几场极具感染力的爱国演讲，确实是个赤诚的爱国者。

And so he gave a couple of speeches like that that were extremely emotional, and he was a truly patriotic person.

他出生在法国，但父母都不是法国人，实际上他还是犹太人。

He was born in France, but neither of his parents were French, and he was actually Jewish.

因此他不得不反复证明自己的法国身份。

And so he kind of had to prove his Frenchness over and over again.

攻击他的人——既有众多反对者也不乏仰慕者——往往来自法国极右翼反犹势力，他们常指责他是野蛮人、反法分子、非法国人，并因其犹太身份而诋毁他反对理性主义。

He was constantly the people who did attack him, because there were many of them as well as many admirers, were often sort of part of the antisemitic far right in France, and they would often accuse him of being barbarian, anti French, not French, anti rationalist because he was Jewish.

我认为他渴望被认可为真正的法国哲学家，这种执念在那些竭力证明对法忠诚的演讲中达到了顶峰。

So I think he had this this desire to be taken seriously as a French philosopher, and I think this all culminates at the in this moment where he's really trying to prove sort of his loyalty to France in these speeches.

随着战事推进，几年后法国政府试图说服美国参战，他们考虑派谁去与威尔逊总统及其幕僚商讨计划。

And then a few years later, in as the war advances, the French government is trying to figure out how to convince the Americans to join the war, and they're thinking about who they can send to discuss these plans with president Wilson and his sort of staff.

他们最终认为派遣外交官可能显得过于激进。

And they come to the conclusion that sending a diplomat might be seen as too aggressive in a sense.

鉴于柏格森是超级名人，且几年前在美国巡回演讲时大获成功，他们认定这位既德高望重又恰逢威尔逊本人对哲学颇有兴趣的思想家是最佳人选。

And they decide that Bergson, as this hyper famous figure, as someone who had only a few years before that, an extremely successful reception in The US when he traveled there to give lectures, would be the ideal candidate, not only because he was famous and well respected, but also because Wilson was something of a philosopher himself, or at least interested in philosophy quite a lot.

他们甚至认为像柏格森这样的人物亲自拜访会让威尔逊感到荣幸。

And so they thought he might be flattered even by someone like Berthand coming to speak to him.

于是伯坦德启程横渡大西洋——这是1917年，当时潜艇战正酣，能完成这一壮举实属不易。

So Berthand goes, crosses the Atlantic, which is no so this is in 1917, which is no small feat because it's at a time when submarine warfare is raging.

单就横渡大西洋本身而言，这已是相当危险之举。

So it is a quite dangerous thing to do in itself to just cross the Atlantic.

此行本应保密，但显然他的到来立即引起了媒体注意，不过他试图保持低调。

He goes it's meant to be a secret, but, obviously, his arrival is immediately noticed by the press, but he tries to keep a low profile.

实际上他花了数周甚至数月时间，成功与威尔逊最亲密的几位顾问（抱歉，应该还有仰慕者）建立关系，并形成了战略性的友谊。

And he basically manages to, over the course of several weeks and months even, create relationships with some of Wilson's closest admirers advisers, sorry, and probably admirers as well, and to form friendships, strategic friendships with them.

最终，他确实得以与威尔逊共处一室。

And, eventually, he does get in the room with Wilson.

据我所知，没有关于那次会谈具体内容的记录，但我们知道巴格达方面肯定在推动一个观点：若美国想在创建国际联盟等事务上有发言权，就必须参战。

There's no record, as far as I can tell, of what was actually said during that meeting, but we know that Baghdad would have been pushing the idea that The US would have to join the war if they wanted any say in, you know, the creation of a society of nations, anything like that.

而伯森提出的很可能是关于战后世界格局的构想，这确实对威尔逊很有吸引力。

And that Berson was pushing probably an idea of, yeah, the future of what the future postwar would look like, that really did appeal to Wilson.

当然还有其他影响因素——比如那封被截获的电报显示德国正试图说服墨西哥参战。

And so there would have been other factors that would have, you know, not only I think the fact that there was a telegram intercepted where, you know, Germany were trying to convince Mexico to join.

促使美国参战的因素很多，但这一点却鲜少被提及：当时这位世界闻名的哲学家正与威尔逊进行着这场对话。

You know, there would have been a lot of factors that would have convinced The US to join, but this one is rarely mentioned, the fact that sort of the world famous philosopher was in the room having this conversation with Wilson.

威尔逊的所有顾问都已被伯坦德说服。

All of Wilson's advisers had been sort of won over by Bethesdawn as well.

我认为这件事本应产生相当大的影响。

It would have had, I think, quite a big impact.

我觉得这段历史极其迷人，所以想讲述这个故事。

So I find that completely fascinating, and I wanted to tell that story.

我是斯科特。

Scott here.

稍事休息，插播一条赞助商信息。

One more break for a word from our sponsors.

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Need a daily spark of hope and direction?

让塞勒姆传媒的每日圣经应用成为那束光。

Let the daily bible app from Salem Media be that spark.

这款免费的安卓应用每天清晨推送鼓舞人心的经文，还提供阅读计划、灵修内容，以及乔伊斯·迈耶和里克·沃伦等领袖的可靠播客。

This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren.

更喜欢聆听？

Prefer to listen instead?

每日圣经应用可朗读经文、阅读计划和章节，是你日常耳机时光的贴心伴侣。

The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters aloud, handy for the headphones moment of your day.

可选ESV、NIV、KJV等多种版本，还能收藏喜爱的内容以便回看。

Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later.

通过应用直接与亲友分享励志信息。

Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app.

在每条通知中感受神的同在。

Feel God's presence in every notification.

在Google Play搜索每日圣经应用，让希望、目标与平和开启你的每一天。

Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace.

威尔逊曾是普林斯顿大学的校长。

Wilson was a former president of Princeton.

他曾在学术界工作。

He was in the academic world.

他肯定知道柏格森是谁，而法国也清楚该向威尔逊展示什么样的人物。

He certainly would have known who Bergson was, And France knew exactly what character dangle in front of Wilson.

不会是其他更著名但超出威尔逊兴趣范围的人。

It wouldn't be someone else much more famous, but outside of Wilson's sphere of interest.

所以从政治角度来说，我不得不说是绝对的天才之举。

So from a political angle, I have to say absolute genius.

虽然我们不清楚具体产生了什么影响，但可以说这招奏效了。

And one can argue it did the job, although we don't exactly know what influence he had on him.

但这是我们能看到的一种影响途径。

But it was a vector of influence we can see.

毕竟，名声很难维持数十年之久。

Well, fame is impossible to sustain over the decades.

到1940年代柏格森去世时，他已远不如从前知名。

And by the time of Bergson's death in the nineteen forties, he's not nearly as well known.

正如你所说，他在英语世界基本被遗忘了。

He's largely forgotten in the anglosphere as you note.

但在他去世前，发生了什么？

But up to his death, what happens?

为什么他变得不那么重要了？

Why does he become less relevant?

仅仅是因为新思潮的涌现吗？

Is it simply because new trends come on?

他的思想在两次世界大战之间的时期影响力大不如前。

His ideas don't have as much purchase in the interwar period.

这里有几个因素。

So there are several things.

一个不可忽视的因素是，他因执行这些政治任务、外交使命而精疲力竭。

One non negligible factor is that he from so he does these missions, these political missions, diplomatic missions, and is completely exhausted by them.

然后在二十年代，他病得非常严重，停止了教学工作。

And then in the twenties, he becomes extremely ill and stops teaching.

他不再举办公开讲座。

He stops giving his public lectures.

他患有一种严重的类风湿性关节炎，生命的最后二十年其实是在巨大痛苦中度过的。

He has a horrible form of sort of rheumatoid arthritis that really those final two decades of his life are really spent in a lot of pain.

这是其中一个原因。

So that's one thing.

另一个原因是第一次世界大战的爆发，不仅整代人 literally 消失了，幸存者的希望——什么是希望、什么是理想、对未来可能性的认知——都因这场灾难性事件彻底改变了。

The other thing is that World War one happened, and so not only is a whole generation literally lost, but also the hopes of the surviving people of that generation, the what counts as hope, what counts as ideals, what counts as perception of what the future can be, has completely shifted due to this cataclysmic event.

因此伯格森曾被视为颠覆性且激动人心的思想，如今已不再如此。

And so what Bergson once seen as quite subversive and exciting just isn't that anymore.

他淡出了公众视野，他的思想也不再被视为激动人心。

He's disappeared from the public view, and also his ideas are no longer seen as exciting.

再加上他曾发表过相当民族主义的演讲，这让许多左倾人士深感失望，这也是原因之一。

And add to that the fact that he gives these he has given these quite nationalistic speeches, which a lot of left leaning people would have found very disappointing, that adds to it as well.

还有一个事实是来自英语世界日渐重要的人物伯特兰·罗素的持续攻击，我在书中详细描述了他们敌意中非哲学层面的原因——特别是罗素的敌意，包括职业嫉妒这类因素。

There's also the fact that there are sort of constant attacks from someone who is is becoming a very important figure in the English speaking world, Bertrand Russell, who really has in the book, I sort of describe a lot of the some of the non philosophical reasons for their animosity, for Russell's animosity in particular, which includes sort of professional jealousy and things like that.

但从哲学角度来看，他们的对立如此极端，根本不可能达成和解。

But they're also just sort of extremely opposed philosophically in a way that would never could never have been reconciled, really.

因此在英语世界，罗素占据了上风，并确立了柏格森思想无关紧要的观念。

And so Russell gains the upper hand, I think, in the English speaking world and sort of sets in stone this idea that Bergson is not relevant.

综合这些因素，可悲的是，当他在1941年纳粹占领下的巴黎去世时，甚至有人惊讶他竟然还活着——你明白我的意思吧。

So all these things combined, yeah, sadly, mean that when he died in 1941 in Nazi occupied Paris, he was some people were surprised that he was even still alive, if you see what I mean.

其实他的思想可以通过多种方式重获新生，事实上正在复兴。

Well, there's many ways that his ideas can be revitalized, and in fact, are being revitalized.

当我研究'绵延'概念时，发现2020年新冠封锁期间的一篇博客，作者探讨了柏格森的绵延理论——当我们都被封锁时，时间仿佛停滞了，以及这个概念的意义和柏格森思想能如何帮助我们。

When I was reading up on the concept of Duree or duration, there was a blog post I found from 2020 during the depth of the COVID lockdowns where somebody was discussing his concept of Duree that time seems to be coming to a standstill when we're all locked down and what this idea means and what Bergson's concepts can do to help us.

关于'再着魔'的理念，我认为21世纪正感受到一种倦怠：一切物质至上，数据驱动，电子表格盛行，于是人们对各种另类灵性形式产生了兴趣。

The idea of enchantments, there's a certain ennui, I think the twenty first century is feeling with everything being materialistic, everything being data driven, spreadsheets, where there's interest in very eclectic sometimes, forms of spirituality.

硅谷的科技精英会去南美洲参加死藤水仪式。

Tech bros from Silicon Valley will go to Ayahuasca retreats in South America.

有种'再着魔'的理念，世界几乎回归中世纪状态——物质与非物质世界仅隔着一层薄纱。

There's an idea of reenchantment, so this idea of the world almost medieval, where there's a thin veneer that separates the material world from the immaterial world.