Frankly, We Have a Lot to Ketchup On (with Latif Nasser)

是的

Yep.

烤你的鸭子。

Roast your bird.

这很合理。

That's reasonable.

大部分脂肪都已经消失了。

A massive amount of the fat is gone.

仍然会有一些脂肪，但不会多到危险或令人害怕的程度。

There will still be fat, but it won't be, like, a dangerous or scary amount.

对。

Yeah.

对我来说，鸭油就像液态黄金。

And to me, duck fat is like liquid gold.

所以，即使滴落到水里的那些脂肪也值得保存。

So even that fat that has dripped down into the water is worth saving.

所以你可以把水冷藏，刮下脂肪保存起来，或者把水煮干，留下脂肪。

So you could either chill that water and scrape the fat off and save it, or you could simmer away the water and keep the fat.

但鸭油是一种绝佳的烹饪工具和食材，尤其适合用来做土豆。

But duck fat is an amazing tool and ingredient, especially for cooking potatoes.

没错。

Right.

通过蒸的方式，你实际上是在进行预煮。

And by steaming it, you're sort of par cooking it.

这样你就缩短了烹饪时间，剩下的步骤就和烤鸡或火鸡很相似了。

So there you've shortened the cooking time, and the rest of it's a lot like roasting a chicken or a turkey.

所以黛布的恐惧并非毫无道理，但你觉得有简单的解决办法吗？

So Deb's phobia is not unfounded, but you think there's easy ways around it?

我觉得鸭肉注定要出现在她的菜单上了，老兄。

I think there's duck in her future, man.

好的。

Alright.

祝你好运，黛布。

Good luck, Deb.

希望你能成功，黛布。

I hope it works out, Deb.

准备好下一个问题了吗？

You ready for another question?

随时准备好了。

Born ready.

这是安妮贝尔。

This is Annabelle.

所以我的问题是关于红薯的。

So my question is about sweet potatoes.

我超爱红薯。

I love sweet potatoes.

当我说我爱红薯时，我的意思是，我每周吃两三个。

And when I say I love sweet potatoes, I mean, I eat two or three a week.

我每顿饭都吃，还会加各种配料。

I eat them for any meal and toppings.

我喜欢用花生酱和自制奇亚果酱做花生酱果酱三明治，或者用牛油果鹰嘴豆泥。

I do like a PB and J one with peanut butter and my homemade chia jam or I do an avocado chickpea mash.

但你有没有试过牛油果配花生酱？

But do you ever do avocado and peanut butter?

没错。

Exactly.

我想听听你们对不同方式填充红薯的看法。

And I wanted to hear you guys' opinions about different ways I could fill my sweet potato.

我有两个限制条件。

I have two constraints.

我在上大学，而且是素食者。

I'm in college and I'm vegan.

我觉得这方面有很多可以发挥的空间，很期待听听你们的想法。

So I feel like there's a lot to work with there, but I'm excited to hear what you guys have to say.

安妮贝尔，谢谢你提出这个问题。

Annabelle, thanks for your question.

你真是太贴心了。

It's so you're you're very sweet.

像土豆一样。

Like a potato.

像土豆一样。

Like a potato.

如果你从来没试过日本红薯的话

If you've never tried a Japanese sweet potato

哦，日本红薯。

Oh, Japanese sweet potatoes.

太棒了。

Slap.

它们非常好味。

They are so good.

它们有时也被称为萨摩芋。

They're also sometimes called satsuma imo.

它们通常有紫红色的外皮和白色的果肉。

They tend to have, like, a purplish skin and a white flesh.

它们的纤维质地比橙色的红薯要少得多。

They have a much less fibrous texture than the orange ones.

我猜你可能是像这样整颗烤红薯，听起来像是，或者可能是整颗蒸熟，然后像烤土豆一样配着馅料吃。

I'm guessing that you're either, like, maybe roasting your sweet potatoes whole, it sounds like, or maybe steaming them whole and sort of eating them like a baked potato with filling.

它们非常适合这种吃法。

They really lend themselves quite well to that.

而且我喜欢它们的一点是，它们通常个头比较小。

Plus what I like about them is they tend to be a little bit smaller.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

有时候我会吃两三个烤整颗的小红薯，它们熟得也更快一些。

Sometimes I'll eat, like, two little roasted whole ones or three little roasted whole ones, and they cook up a little bit more quickly.

我觉得在日本红薯方面，你住的洛杉矶现在特别流行，赫里希。

I feel like Japanese sweet potatoes are all the rage in LA where you live, Hrishi.

是的。

They are.

对。

Yeah.

每家餐厅的菜单上都有。

They're on every restaurant menu.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

每家餐厅的菜单上都有，但我好像从来没在杂货店见过它们。

They're on the menu at every restaurant, but I don't know that I've ever seen them in the grocery store.

它们很难买到吗？

Are they hard to find?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

有一家农场。

There's one farm.

我想是怀瑟家庭农场，所有餐厅都从那里采购这些美味的日本红薯。

I think it's like Wiser Family Farms where all of the restaurants get these delicious Japanese sweet potatoes.

我的健康食品店也有卖。

They have them, you know, at my health food store.

所以它们并不是找不到，但我认为尝试一下日本红薯，已经能让你的厨艺提升不少了。

So they're not impossible to find, but I think that will already level up your game trying some Japanese sweet potatoes.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

它们更绵密。

They just they're creamier.

我觉得它们更粉糯。

I think they're starchier.

它们简直达到了另一个层次的美味。

They're just oh, it's a whole another level of deliciousness.

第二步，听起来你在配料方面已经很在行了。

Step two, it already sounds like you're pretty good on your topping game.

我的意思是，很多人在这期节目中都在用花生酱做各种料理，我以前根本想不到会这样。

I mean, a lot of people are doing stuff with peanut butter on this episode that I just never thought I'd hear about.

不过，受你启发，我觉得我最喜欢吃红薯的方式之一就是蒸熟后配上芝麻酱黄油。

So but, like, you know, inspired by you, I think for me, one of my favorite ways to eat sweet potatoes is steamed with, like, a tahini butter.

我是从卡拉·洛利音乐那里学到的。

I learned that from Carla Lolli Music.

这是她书里的一个食谱，我还专门写了一整篇专栏介绍这些美味的蒸红薯。

It was a recipe in her book, and I wrote a whole column about these steamed sweet potatoes that were so nice.

在我过去的生活里，我一直反对蒸蔬菜，我更喜欢煮。

And I, in my life, have historically been anti steaming vegetables because I'd rather boil them.

但她非常有说服力地讲述了蒸制的好处，因为这样能让红薯变得松软，那些纤维感也会消失。

But she wrote so convincingly about steaming them because it makes them fluff up and any of that fibrousness sort of disappears.

这是一种非常棒的烹饪方式。

And it is a great, great way to cook them.

她做的芝麻酱黄油里可能加了一点点芝麻油。

And she she makes a tahini butter maybe with a little bit of sesame oil.

我觉得我做的时候，会加一些酱油，甚至可能加一点秘密的味噌。

And I feel like when I make it, add some soy sauce and maybe even a little secret miso.

所以如果你不能吃黄油，也许可以试试植物性黄油。

So if you can't have butter, maybe you could have vegan butter.

或者我觉得你也可以尝试把芝麻酱黄油、酱油、姜和烤芝麻油混合在一起，做出一种美味的奶油状馅料。

Or I think you could also just try combining tahini butter, like soy, ginger, toasted sesame oil, and make a delicious sort of creamy filling like that.

这可能是我处理红薯的一个方向。

And that's like an one sort of direction I might take my sweet potato in.

我有一个可能的想法。

I have one possible idea.

是的。

Yeah.

当你提到日本红薯时，我特别喜欢一种配了奇米丘里酱的日本红薯。

When you mentioned Japanese sweet potatoes, a Japanese sweet potato that I've really enjoyed was one that was served with a chimichurri sauce.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得绿色香草酱是个很好的选择。

I think a green herby sauce is a great way.

因为你想啊，红薯本身是淀粉质且甜的。

Because if you think about it, the sweet potato itself is starchy and sweet.

如果你加了盐，那就是咸的。

And if you've salted it, salty.

但它确实需要一些酸味和清新感来中和这些味道。

But it really is gonna need, like, some acid, some freshness to counteract that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且我觉得它们通常还可以再加一点湿润剂。

And also a little bit I think they can always use a little more, like, moistening agent.

所以我认为，青酱中的橄榄油也是个不错的点缀。

So the olive oil in a salsa verde is a nice touch too, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，没错，奇米丘里酱、青酱或者任何绿色酱料都会很好吃。

So, yeah, a chimichurri, a salsa verde, or any green sauce would be good.

我不知道。

Don't know.

你有喜欢做的绿色酱料吗，Hrishi？

Do you have a green sauce you like to make, Hrishi?

我的意思是，我从来没做过奇米丘里酱，但我真的很喜欢。

I mean, I've never made a chimichurri sauce, but I do love it.

现在我突然很想做一做。

Now now I feel like I want to.

其实一点都不难。

It's really not hard.

说实话，随着我年纪渐长，我现在已经习惯用机器来做所有事情了。

And honestly, like, I now have, in my old advanced age, taken to I make everything in a machine.

我的意思是，我以前都是亲手学习做这些料理。

I mean, I learn to make all these things by hand.

但现在我觉得破壁机真是个好工具，嗯。

But now I just I think the immersion blender is a great tool Mhmm.

在厨房里。

In the kitchen.

所以我经常随手把家里有的香草、一些青柠汁、柠檬汁或米醋、橄榄油和盐扔进去。

And so I often will just throw, like, herbs I have around some either lime juice, lemon juice, or rice vinegar, olive oil, salt.

我总喜欢在里面加点辣味。

I always like something spicy in there.

不管是一点点卡拉布里亚辣椒酱、辣椒碎、新鲜的墨西哥辣椒，还是别的什么，有一点点脆感会很好。

So whether it's like a little bit of Calabrian chili paste or a chili flake or a fresh jalapeno or something, it's nice to have a little crunch.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你可以用炸得酥脆的洋葱碎或某种烤过的坚果来装饰这个红薯。

So you could top said sweet potato with crispy fried shallots or some sort of toasted nut.

比如，加一点开心果会很不错。

Like, a little bit of pistachio would be nice.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至只是撒点烤过的芝麻，增加一点脆感。

Even just like toasted sesame seeds for a little crunch.

在Hrishi家，我们经常吃红薯。

We eat a lot of sweet potatoes here in the Hrishi house.

哦，说来听听。

Oh, tell me

继续。

more.

基本上，我们每周都会用红薯搭配素汉堡一起吃。

Basically, once a week, we eat sweet potatoes with our veggie burgers.

这是我们家传统的周五晚餐。

It's our sort of traditional Friday night meal.

非常简单。

Really simple.

就把红薯切成小条烤一烤。

Just roast the sweet potatoes as little fries.

但有一天我特别想吃牧场酱。

But the thing that I was really craving one day was ranch sauce.

嗯。

But Mhmm.

我们家是素食家庭，所以我只能用家里现有的材料自己做牧场酱，因为我在超市里很少见到素食版的牧场酱。

It's a vegan house, so I had to make ranch sauce out of what we had here in the house because I haven't really seen vegan ranch dressing in the store.

我用素食酸奶油、素食蛋黄酱、莳萝、一点大蒜、柠檬汁和盐做了出来。

But I made some out of vegan sour cream and veganaise and dill, a little garlic and lemon and salt.

我觉得这才是吃红薯条的最佳方式。

And I think that's the best way to eat a sweet potato fry.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这听起来非常美味。

I mean, that sounds very delicious.

在过去五年里，我花了很多时间写我的书，顺便制作了很多素食酱料和调味汁，其中一些你尝过。

I have spent a lot of time in the last five years working on my book, making a lot of incidentally vegan dressings and sauces, some of which you've had.

其中一种原本是打算做成芝麻酱牧场风味的，就是你和林赛喜欢的那一种。

And one of them actually was meant to be a tahini ranch, the one that you and Lindsay like

非常喜欢。

so much.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你不想用素食蛋黄酱和素食酸奶油，也可以从芝麻酱基底开始。

If you didn't wanna use, like, veganaise and vegan sour cream, you could just start with a tahini base.

哦。

Oh.

然后，是的，再加所有香草。

And then, yeah, and then all the herbs.

这是新鲜和干莳萝的混合。

It's a mix of fresh and dried dill.

加一些葱花会很好吃。

Some scallions are nice in there.

然后，是的，你会得到一种绿色的香草酱。

And then, yeah, you get a kind of a green herby sauce.

这放在红薯上会非常美味。

That would be really good on top of the sweet potato.

但我认为烤红薯晚餐是一种非常满足、饱腹又有趣的餐食。

But I think a roast sweet potato dinner is a really satisfying and filling and fun thing.

因为对我来说，任何可以搭配酱料和配料的餐食都是成功的。

Because to me, it's like any meal where there is an opportunity for condiments and toppings is a win.

安妮贝尔，我希望这能给你一些灵感。

Annabelle, I hope this gives you some ideas.

我们为你加油。

We are rooting for you.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这不是根。

It's not a root.

这是一种块茎。

It's a tuber.

哦，我们为你块茎加油。

Oh, we are tubering for you.

嗨，Hrishi 和 Samin。

Hi, Hrishi and Samin.

我叫阿什利，来自澳大利亚的堪培拉。

My name is Ashley, and I'm from Canberra, Australia.

我的伴侣是个非常热情的番茄种植者。

So my partner is a very enthusiastic tomato grower.

去年季节末，我们收获了大量番茄，所以他想把它们装瓶保存。

And last year, we ended up with a heap of tomatoes at the end of the season, so he wanted to bottle them.

他精心压碎并装瓶了这些番茄，但最终结果太咸了。

He lovingly crushed and bottled these tomatoes, but the end result is way too salty.

现在我们有大约10瓶稍微过咸的番茄酱，我根本没法用。

And so now we have about 10 jars of just over salted tomato sauce that I can't use for anything.

我不能把它加到意大利面酱或炖菜里，因为最终味道实在太咸了。

I can't put it into a pasta sauce or stew because the final result is just way over salted.

有没有什么办法能让这个意大利面酱或番茄酱不那么咸？

Is there anything that I can do to make this pasta sauce or tomato sauce less salty?

或者有没有什么办法可以把它和其他东西混合，做成能吃的东西？

Or is there anything that I can use it for or mix it with that would make something edible?

哦，萨明，就像你一样，这些番茄酱太咸了。

Oh, Samin, much like yourself, these tomato sauces are too salty.

每当有人告诉我他们在罐装番茄时，我就会有创伤反应。

I just have trauma response when somebody tells me they're canning tomatoes.

真的吗？

Really?

因为这是最耗时的。

Because it's the most labor intensive.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

步骤太多了。

There's so many steps.

这是一类事情，当你做完之后，整个厨房都乱糟糟的，番茄汁还溅到了天花板上，接下来三周你还会在耳朵里发现番茄籽。

It's one of those things where when you've done it and dirtied your entire kitchen, and there's somehow tomato splatter on the ceiling, finding tomato seeds in your ears for the next three weeks.

简直就是一片混乱。

Like, pure chaos.

我再也不罐装番茄了。

I will never can tomatoes again.

任何正在外面做这件事的人，我看到你们了，我理解你们想找到办法用掉它的冲动，因为这些番茄如此珍贵，耗费了如此多的时间和劳力，更别提种植这些番茄所花的时间和精力了。

Anyone doing it out there, I see you, and I understand the instinct to find a way to use it because it is so precious and so much, like, time and labor, especially not even including the time and labor it took to grow those tomatoes.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

而且，在付出所有这些努力之后，却发现成果根本没法吃，那种心碎的感觉。

And the heartbreak of discovering after all of that work that the thing is inedible.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，唯一能用掉它们的方法就是稀释。

So I think the only way to use them involves dilution.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想到一些食谱，比如把碎番茄加进一大锅汤里，让它只是作为更大规模的汤或炖菜中的辅助风味，然后让盐分来自番茄本身。

I'm thinking of recipes where I add crushed tomatoes to a huge pot of soup, where it's just a supporting flavor in a larger soup or stew, and then let the salt come from the tomato.

但我还想推荐另一个方法，虽然可能有点令人心碎，但仍然能让你用完这些番茄：当食谱要求用两罐番茄时，你可以用半罐或半瓶自己做的，再搭配一罐半从别处买的。

But the other thing that I would recommend is maybe a little bit heartbreaking, but it still would involve you getting to use up your tomatoes, which is when something calls for two cans of tomatoes, use half a can or half a jar of your own, and then one and a half cans that you've procured elsewhere.

这样，你还是用掉了自己的番茄。

So that way, you're still using yours up.

它们不会被扔掉，但你相当于用一些低钠或无钠的番茄来稀释它。

It doesn't go in the garbage, but you're sort of cutting it with something that's maybe a low sodium or no sodium tomato.

也许可以为这种用途购买无钠番茄。

Maybe buy no sodium tomatoes for that use.

我觉得这确实是不错的建议。

I feel like that's legit advice.

我真的很喜欢这个建议。

I I really like that advice.

相信我。

Trust me.

我这辈子已经做过太多加盐过头的事了。

I have done so much oversalting in my life.

很难想象。

Hard to imagine.

这本书的初稿里全是盐、盐、盐和热量。

The first draft of the book was just salt salt salt heat.

所以有时候，答案是你得把这些东西扔掉。

So sometimes the answer is you have to throw this stuff out.

对我来说，这听起来不像那样。

This to me doesn't sound like that.

对我来说，这听起来像是以一种更稀释的方式谨慎使用。

This to me sounds like a sort of a careful usage in in a much more diluted way.

是的。

Yeah.

让商店买来的食材来帮帮你。

Let the store bought stuff come to your rescue.

到现在为止，

By now,

你明年可能会收获更多番茄，所以夏天做饭时可以用上明年的番茄。

you might have another glut of tomatoes from the next year, so you could use your next year's tomatoes when you're cooking in the summer.

比如，如果你要做普罗旺斯炖菜之类的，可以加一些你做的咸味酱汁和花园里新鲜的番茄。

Like, if you're gonna make a ratatouille or something, add some of your salty sauce and some fresh tomatoes from the garden.

真不错。

Nice.

我们还有另一个关于盐的问题。

Well, there's another salt question that we have.

我觉得这个问题特别有趣，现在我来为你播放一下。

I found this question really charming, but here I'm gonna play it for you.

嗨，萨明和赫里希。

Hi, Samin and Hrishi.

我叫里莎，住在伊利诺伊州诺曼。

My name is Risha, and I'm in Normal, Illinois.

我经常看到有人说，我们应该给蔬菜加盐。

I often see it mentioned that, you know, we're supposed to salt our vegetables.

比如你会用一些粗盐腌黄瓜，让多余的水分沥干；或者在做卷心菜沙拉前，先用盐腌卷心菜，然后可能挤掉水分。

So like you salt your cucumbers with some kosher salt and you let the excess water drip out, or before you make a slaw, you salt your cabbage, and then you maybe squeeze out the water.

我的问题是，之后你会冲洗吗？

My question is, do you then rinse?

我从没见过食谱里提到要冲洗黄瓜或沙拉，但我想那样又会重新引入大量水分。

I never see this in the recipe, like to then rinse off the cucumbers or the slaw, and I guess that would just reintroduce a whole bunch of water.

但同时，让这么多盐直接停留在黄瓜上，似乎也太多了。

But at the same time, it seems like a lot of salt to just sit on the cucumber.

我用的是那种红盒粗盐。

And I am using the like Red Box kosher salt.

我知道它没那么咸，但还是觉得有点咸。

So and I know it's not that salty, but it still seems a little salty.

也许我只是还没适应，可能我放的配料不够多，那些不那么咸的食材不足以中和黄瓜的咸味，让咸味变得恰到好处。

Maybe I'm just I gotta get my head around it maybe, and maybe I'm just not, like, putting that ingredient, the cucumber or the slaw with enough stuff that's not as salty, so that the saltiness of the cucumber is like really delightful.

但你能告诉我吗？如果我们应该保留盐分而不冲洗黄瓜，比如把切好的英式黄瓜放在滤网里，大概该放多少盐？

But maybe you could tell me, like, if we're meant to leave the salt as is and not rinse it off, say, cucumbers, how much salt should I be putting on, say, an English cucumber that's cut up in my colander?

这会非常有帮助。

That would be so helpful.

我觉得这个说法挺可爱的，因为我能感同身受。

I found this one kind of charming because I kind of related to it.

有时候食谱里会有一些步骤，你会想，好吧。

Like, there are steps sometimes in recipes and you're like, okay.

我在做这件事。

I'm doing the thing.

但我真的明白我为什么这么做，或者背后的原理是什么吗？

But do I understand why I'm doing it or, like, what the principle is

一直都是这样吗？

all the time?

这说得通。

It makes sense.

我觉得这个问题问得非常好。

I thought this was a really nice question.

谢谢Hrishi打来电话。

So thanks, Hrishi, for calling.

可能让人困惑的是像卷心菜做沙拉这样的情况。

What can be confusing is something, say, like cabbage for slaw.

通常食谱会说，加一些盐，让它静置一会儿，水分就会析出，然后再继续后面的步骤。

Often, it'll say, add some salt, let it sit, the water will come out, and then continue with the recipe.

因为如果你不这么做，三十分钟后拌沙拉时，它就会泡在水里，这可不是你想要的。

Because if you don't do that when you go and dress your slaw after thirty minutes, it'll just be sitting in a puddle of water, and you don't want that.

你想要的是爽脆的沙拉。

You want a nice crunchy slaw.

是的。

Yeah.

我们对卷心菜、黄瓜这类食材，或者夏天人们常建议对茄子这样处理的原因就在这里。

And the reason we do that on things like cabbage or cucumbers or, like, in the summertime, people will often recommend that you do it on eggplant.

嗯。

Mhmm.

让水分渗出，然后擦干，再继续下一步。

Let the water come out, and then pat it off, and then continue.

这是因为这些食材的细胞体积大、含水量高。

It's because these are types of produce that have big watery cells.

它们含有大量的水分。

They have a lot of high high water content.

因此，加盐能促进渗透作用，使水分开始渗出。

And so the salting encourages osmosis to start occurring, and then water starts coming out.

这意味着剩下的部分会更加入味。

And what that means is then what's left behind is more flavorful.

对于番茄来说，确实如此。

So certainly with tomatoes, that's true.

对于西葫芦和茄子来说，它们水分太多，会妨碍你在烤或烤制时上色。

With zucchini and eggplant, they're so watery that their water content can prevent browning if you're trying to grill or roast them.

所以，加盐实际上能促使部分细胞壁开始分解，使它们更容易烹煮，同时减少水分。

So salting can actually encourage some of the cell walls to start breaking down so that they will cook more efficiently and just be less watery.

在过去，如今广泛种植的茄子品种出现之前，茄子确实相当苦，而用盐腌茄子可以去除一部分苦味。

In the olden times before the current sort of, like, available eggplant varieties that are, you know, widely grown, eggplant did used to be quite bitter, and salting the eggplant would draw some of the bitterness out.

但如今，现代茄子的苦味已经被育种逐渐消除。

But now that bitterness has sort of been bred out of modern eggplant.

所以我认为，有些人是从他们的意大利祖母那里学会腌茄子的，但他们并不一定知道原因，或者只是被告诉说这是为了去苦味，但实际上并不是为了去除苦味。

So I think some people learned to salt eggplant from their Italian grandmother, say, and and just, like, didn't necessarily know why or they were told it's about bitterness, but it's not really for bitterness.

这通常只是一种有帮助的做法。

It's just often a helpful thing.

尽管如此，如果你要烹饪已经腌过的食材，而你的目标是上色，那么你就需要擦掉表面积聚的水分。

All that being said, if you're gonna cook something that you've salted, if your goal is browning, then you need to wipe off the water that accumulates on the surface.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为褐变反应——即焦糖化和美拉德反应——只有在温度远高于212华氏度时才会开始，而水会在达到这个温度前蒸发并变成蒸汽。

Because the browning reactions, which are caramelization and the Maillard reaction, don't start until temperatures well past two twelve, which is where water will evaporate and steam away.

是的。

Yeah.

所以如果你不仔细处理，最后可能会得到类似西葫芦汤的东西，根本不会变褐。

So if you don't do that carefully, you'll sort of end up with, like, a zucchini soup, and it won't actually brown.

所以我通常会根据我有多少准备时间来决定是否要给西葫芦和茄子加盐。

So I kind of decide if I'm going to salt things like zucchini and eggplant based on how much time I have to prepare.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我的目标是上色，但又没有整整四十五分钟让蔬菜静置、出水并擦干，那我干脆就不给西葫芦加盐了。

So if my goal is browning, but I don't have, like, a whole forty five minutes to let it sit and all the water to come out and dry it off, then actually, I just don't salt the zucchini.

我直接开始煎或烤。

I start sauteing it or roasting it.

等我烹饪完之后再加盐，这其实违背了我自己的原则，因为我一向主张尽早加盐。

And once I'm done cooking it, then I salt it, which is breaking my own rules because I believe in salting everything early.

但你也得根据你想要达到的效果来灵活处理。

But also, you have to do it within context of what you're after.

我认为里希问的问题是，当你在去除水分、擦掉表面水分的时候，盐是不是也会被一起擦掉？

I think the question that Rishi is asking, right, is when you're getting rid of the water, when you're, like, wiping off the water, is the salt coming with it?

有一部分盐确实会被带走，但我认为她的问题核心是，你一开始可能放了太多盐。

Some of it does, but I think what I heard in her question was that you're probably using too much salt to begin with.

即使你严格按照食谱的用量来放盐，但对于你家人的口味来说，可能还是偏咸。

And even if you're doing exactly the amount that the recipe tells you, maybe for your palate at your house, that's too much.

因为理想情况下，你只需要用最终需要的那部分盐量。

Because, ideally, you just use the amount you're gonna use in the end

为了调味。

For flavor.

为了调味。

For flavor.

而你在此期间所做的，只是等待水分析出，然后倒掉这些水分，再继续你的食谱。

And all you're doing in the meantime is waiting to allow that liquid to come out so that you can then discard that liquid and then carry on with your recipe.

像腌黄瓜或卷心菜这样日常的操作，并不是什么精确的化学反应。

So in something as every day as salting your cucumber or your cabbage, it's not some precise chemical reaction number.

你不需要什么公式，也不需要精确的数字来计算完美的盐量比例。

You don't need, like there's not a formula that you need numbers for to create a ratio of perfect salting to your thing.

只需放足够让味道恰到好处的盐，然后继续下一步。

Just put the amount that makes it taste right, and then carry on.

根本不需要冲洗。

There shouldn't have to be rinsing.

根本不需要太多擦拭。

There shouldn't have to be much wiping.

说实话，做黄瓜的时候，如果我要做拍黄瓜沙拉，我可能会让黄瓜稍微腌一会儿，然后倒掉多余的水分，再继续处理。

Honestly, with cucumbers, if I'm doing something like making a smashed cucumber salad, I might just let them sit for a little while in the salt and then tip-off the excess water and carry on.

做泡菜用卷心菜时，确实会用大量的盐，因为那样盐分很高，你的最终目标是形成卤水并促进发酵。

When you're making cabbage for sauerkraut, you do use an extraordinary amount of salt, and that is way saltier because your ultimate goal is to create a brine and lead to fermentation.

但如果你只是做沙拉或快速料理，就直接放你最终要加的那点盐，让味道更好吃就行了。

But when you're just doing it for a salad or a quick preparation, just use the amount that you are gonna put in it to make it taste good.

是因为只需要一点点盐就能引发渗透作用吗？

Because you only need a little bit of salt to cause that osmosis to happen?

是的。

Yeah.

用盐来出水的整个过程，更重要的是时间，而不是盐的用量，这样说你能明白吗？

The entire practice of salting to get water out is much more about time than it is about amount of salt, if that makes sense.

完全明白。

Makes perfect sense.

也就是说，时间比盐的用量更重要。

Like, would say time is the more important factor than the amount.

所以就用你觉得味道合适的量。

So just use what tastes right to you.

在黄瓜上撒点盐，然后吃一口。

Put some salt on your cucumber and eat a piece.

当咸度足够了，就停下来。

And then when it's salty enough, stop.

很好。

Great.

好了。

Done.

Hrishi要把我关于茄子的所有有趣信息都剪掉。

Hrishi's gonna cut out all my interesting information about eggplant.

我提前告诉你吧。

I can already tell you.

不行。

No.

如果你喜欢家常烹饪以及它背后的整体逻辑，但像我一样，希望内容里少一点Hrishi的成分，我推荐你听听Rishi的另一个播客——精彩又神奇的《Song Exploder》。

If you're a fan of home cooking and the way it's all put together, but like me, you wish it had a little less Hrishi in it, Let me recommend Rishi's other podcast, the brilliant and magical song exploder.

Rishi是主持人，但他完全把自己从采访中剔除了，采访对象都是像Janelle Monae、Robin、Fleetwood Mac、U2这样的杰出音乐人。

Rishi is the host, but he cuts himself entirely out of the interviews he does with amazing musicians like Janelle Monae, Robin, Fleetwood Mac, U2, and more.

你听到的只是他们讲述自己某首歌创作背后的过程。

So you just hear them talking about the creative process behind the making of one of their songs.

其实早在我和Hrishi成为朋友之前，我就已经是《Song Exploder》的粉丝了。

I was actually a fan of Song Exploder way before Hrishi and I became friends.

我最喜爱的两期节目是Solange和Sylvan Esso的那两期。

Two of my favorite episodes are the ones with Solange and Sylvan Esso.

这个节目制作得非常细致用心，对任何创作的人来说都极具启发性。

The show is so carefully and thoughtfully made, and it's just really inspiring for anyone who creates things.

在你收听播客的任何平台都可以找到它。

Find it wherever you listen to podcasts.

你想再问些关于蔬菜的问题吗？

Do you want more veggie questions?

当然。

Always.

好的。

Okay.

嗨，萨明和Hrishi。

Hi, Samin and Hrishi.

我是伊丽莎白。

This is Elizabeth.

我的问题是关于冷冻蔬菜的。

My question is about frozen vegetables.

所以我觉得Samin提到过，你推荐玉米、西兰花和豌豆等其他蔬菜，我现在冰箱里已经备好了这些。

So I think Samin had mentioned that you recommend corn, broccoli, and peas among other things, and I have that stuff now stocked in my freezer.

我的问题是，怎样才能最好地使用冷冻蔬菜，让它们依然保持良好的风味？

My question is, how do you use frozen vegetables best so that they still have the right flavor?

比如，我不确定把西兰花微波加热后再加柠檬汁和酱油，味道是否真的和新鲜的一样。

So for example, not sure microwaving broccoli and then using lemon and soy sauce really tastes the same as if it was fresh.

所以我在想，使用冷冻蔬菜最好的方法是什么？

So I'm wondering, yeah, what's the best way to use frozen vegetables?

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

哦，这是个非常好的问题。

Oh, this is a great question.

我曾经劝过一个人，让她在冰箱里常备冷冻蔬菜，她试过用冷冻西兰花。

Someone that I had sort of convinced to keep frozen vegetables in her fridge had tried to use her frozen broccoli.

她说，确实不太好。

And she was like, yeah, just wasn't very good.

我当时就问：‘你对她做了什么？’

And I was like, what did you do to it?

她说：‘嗯，我就按平时做西兰花的方法做的。’

She's like, well, I just made it the way I always make broccoli.

我烤了它。

I roasted it.

我当时就说：‘哦，对啊。’

And I was like, oh, yeah.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

你不能烤冷冻蔬菜。

You can't roast frozen vegetables.

直到我听别人这么说，我才意识到，这其实并不一定很明显。

Until I heard that from somebody, I realized, oh, it's not necessarily super clear.

你不能只是把它解冻到室温，然后当作普通蔬菜来处理。

You can't just thaw it back to room temperature and then treat it like a regular vegetable.

老实说，这和上一个问题其实有关联。

Honestly, this is not unrelated to the last question.

冷冻蔬菜通常都是半熟的。

In that frozen vegetables are usually par cooked.

所以，我认为这意味着它们被短暂地煮过或蒸过，然后才冷冻。

So often, I think that means, like, boiled for a second or steamed for a moment, and then frozen.

所以它们在冷冻时并不是生的。

So they're not raw when they're frozen.

如果你把生蔬菜直接冷冻，细胞里的水分之后会膨胀破裂，嗯。

If you freeze a raw vegetable, the water in the cells will explode later Mhmm.

当它被放进冰箱的时候。

When it goes in the freezer.

所以你必须先把它半熟处理一下。

So you have to sort of par cook it.

但它们仍然很爽脆，从冷冻室拿出来后还需要再煮一下。

But they're still very al dente, and they can use some cooking when you take them out of the freezer.

然而，在烹饪过程、速冻过程，以及它们在你冰箱里存放的整个时间内，它们的水分结构都在发生各种变化。

However, all sorts of things are happening to their watery self, both in that cooking process, the, like, flash freezing process, then all of the time that it spends in your freezer.

而这些变化并不一定都是美好或美味的。

And those things are not necessarily wonderful or delicious.

其中发生的是大量细胞破裂，这会导致蔬菜变得软烂。

What's happening in there is, like, it's a lot of cell breakdown, so it can lead to mushy vegetables.

因为当食物在冰箱里存放时，会发生一些事情，我们都经历过。

And because what happens when things sit in the freezer, we all experience this.

有时候你打开一袋放在冷冻室里的豌豆，会发现全是冻伤痕迹，就像这些

Sometimes you open a bag of peas you've had in the freezer, and there's all of this freezer burn, like all of this

是的。

Yeah.

冰晶。

Icicles.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，就像雪一样，是的。

You know, just like snow Yeah.

在袋子里。

In the bag.

你会想，等等。

And you're like, wait a minute.

我没加水啊。

I didn't put water.

这水是从哪儿来的？

Where did that come from?

雪是从哪儿来的？

Where did the snow come from?

雪是从内部来的，因为冰箱在从里面的东西中抽出水分，缓慢地使它们脱水，这也解释了为什么食物在冰箱里也有保质期。

The snow came from inside because the freezer's pulling moisture out of whatever's in it and slowly dehydrating it, which is also why things have even a shelf life in a freezer.

对吧？

Right?

你最好不要把东西放在里面超过三到六个月。

You don't wanna keep stuff in there more than three or six months.

我的意思是，这要看是什么东西。

I mean, depends on what it is.

但最终它会慢慢萎缩、变干，再也无法食用了。

But it will eventually just, like, shrivel up and dry out and never be any good.

所以我尽量养成习惯，定期使用冷冻室里的东西，轮换着吃。

So I kind of try to make a practice of using stuff in the freezer, like, rotating through it pretty regularly.

这解释了我为什么总是找不到冷冻玉米。

This explains so many lost bags of frozen corn for me.

比如说，我要冷冻自己做的食物。

And say I'm gonna freeze something I prepared.

我总是会选择把食物连同汤汁一起冷冻，比如汤或炖菜，而不是只冷冻烤肉或烤蔬菜。

I would choose always to freeze something in liquid, like a soup or a braise, rather than just like a roasted piece of meat or a roasted vegetable.

因为这样在冷冻和解冻过程中会变得越来越坚韧。

Because that's just gonna continue to get more leathery through the freezing and then rewarming process.

所以为了防止变硬，你必须始终考虑水分含量，并尽量将食物存放在液体中。

So in order to prevent leatheriness, you have to always think about the water content and the way you're storing things ideally in liquid.

只需稍微煮一下，重新烧开，它就会恢复到最佳状态。

Just simmer it and bring it back to a simmer, and it comes to a happy place.

好的。

Okay.

我们再回到蔬菜上来。

Coming back to our vegetables.

你还要应用减少水分流失的理念，在使用冷冻蔬菜时尽可能保留其水分，并且烹饪时间越短越好。对我来说，几乎总是直接将西兰花、玉米和豌豆用盐水煮一下。

You also wanna apply this idea of moisture loss, encouraging as much moisture in the vegetable as possible, and also cooking it for as short of a time as possible in how you decide to use your frozen vegetables, which for me, almost always, I just boil my broccoli, corn, peas in salted water.

或者我经常用冷冻豌豆做豌豆汤，比如美味的豌豆薄荷汤。

Or I often use frozen peas to make pea soup, like a delicious pea and mint soup.

所以这是在液体中处理的。

So that's in liquid.

或者如果我要在派馅里加一些冷冻豌豆、冷冻玉米和冷冻胡萝卜之类的东西。

Or if I was gonna add, I don't know, frozen peas and frozen corn and frozen carrots or something to a pot pie filling.

对吧？

Right?

它们是在某种馅料里慢炖的。

It's being simmered in some sort of a filling.

所以烤制行不通，因为会严重分解。

So roasting's not gonna work because of all of the breakdown.

所以我建议蒸和煮是你最好的两个选择。

So I would say steaming and boiling are your two best friends.

为什么她问题中提到的微波加热不行呢？

Why does microwaving, which she mentions in her question, why does that not work?

我觉得微波加热也可以，但你还是要确保豌豆或西兰花处于一个良好的加盐环境中。

I think microwaving could work, but I think one would want to make sure, again, that your peas or broccoli is in a nice salted environment.

老实说，这并不是广告，但有一家公司叫AnyDay，推出了一种新型微波炉容器。

And honestly, I mean, this is not a paid advertisement, but there is a company called AnyDay that makes sort of a new version of a microwave container.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

前几天我用过这种容器来处理秋葵。

I actually used one of these for okra the other day.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

但只有当你正确加盐并正确烹饪时，才能最大程度地提取风味。

But you're only gonna extract the maximum flavor if you salt it correctly and cook it correctly.

所以如果你想用微波炉蒸煮，那就使用专门的微波炉容器。

And so if you wanna steam it in your microwave, then use, let's say, a microwave specific container.

确保加一些盐，并且不要煮过头。

Make sure there's some salt involved, and don't overcook it.

我用微波炉做的那道秋葵，嗯。

The okra that I was cooking in the microwave Uh-huh.

这个菜谱来自库什布的书，《阿姆里·汗》。

Came from a recipe that was in in Kushbu's book, Amri Khan.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

你之前跟我提起过这个。

You were telling me about it.

对。

Yeah.

我感觉我

I feel like I

一直在看你做这道秋葵。

was watching you make this okra.

我觉得我们可能

I think we might have

当时正在用FaceTime通话。

been on this time FaceTime.

我当时是在做这个。

I was doing this.

不过我非常推荐那本书，那个食谱也做得很棒。

But I highly recommend that book, and that recipe was great.

而且

And

那本叫什么

What's the

那本书叫什么来着？

book called again?

书名叫《阿姆里·汗》。

It's called Amri Khan.

没错。

Yes.

这本书我特别喜欢。

Which I love.

而且非常好。

And it's great.

她妈妈非常推崇用微波炉加热秋葵。

And her mom swore by microwaving okra.

你们这些印度人都在用微波炉啊。

All you Indians and you're microwaving.

是的。

Yes.

我超爱这个。

I love it.

我的意思是，朋友们，我这里提到的是，赫里希有一道家传菜谱，叫萨布达纳。

I mean, truly, that was because what I'm referring to here, peeps, is that Hrishi has a family recipe for a dish called sabudana.

而且特别美味。

And it was so delicious.

它几乎就像木薯饭。

It's almost like a tapioca pilaf.

我的意思是，我们在这个节目里已经聊过这个了。

I mean, we've talked about it in this show.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我恳求她给我这个家庭食谱，结果发现要用微波炉，这让我非常惊讶。

And so I begged for the family recipe, and it involved the microwave, which I was, like, shocked by.

但你妈妈坚持说，不行。

But your mom insisted, no.

不行。

No.

这才是做这道菜的方法。

That's how that's how to make it.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

谢谢，伊丽莎白。

Thanks, Elizabeth.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的问题。

That was a great question.

我真的很喜欢我们关于蔬菜的问题。

I'm really into our veggie questions.

这些问题根本就不是以节日为主题的。

These questions have really ended up not being holiday themed by any stretch.

随便吧，老兄。

Whatever, man.

希望人们在节日期间也吃一些蔬菜。

People hopefully are eating some veggies during the holidays.

是的。

Yeah.

这是

This is

一个公益提示。

a PSA.

嗯。

Mhmm.

吃你的冷冻豌豆吧。

Eat your frozen peas.

我说，我有一个关于这个圣诞节的梦想，那就是做一件我从未做过、从未尝试过类似的东西。

I say, I have this dream for this Christmas, which is to make something that I have never made, never attempted to make anything even close to this.

对于我这样的人来说，难度可能太高了。

The difficulty level might be way too high for someone like me.

但告诉我更多吧。

But Tell me more.

当我

When I

今年秋天我在英国时，第一次吃了肉桂卷。

was in England this fall, I had for the first time a cardamom bun.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

非常好。

It was so good.

我吃了三次。

I ate it three times.

我在那里待了三天，每天都吃一个肉桂卷。

I was there for three days, and I ate a cardamom bun every day.

三次。

Three times.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

前几天，我去过

The other day, was in

洛杉矶这里有一家咖啡店，他们也有肉桂卷。

a coffee shop here in LA and they had a cardamom bun.

我呢

And I

我当时说：天哪。

was like, oh my gosh.

这里居然也有。

They've got it here.

我买来吃了。

I had it.

但远没有那么好吃。

It wasn't nearly as good.

是的。

And Uh-huh.

我当时就想，我该怎么重现我在伦敦从一家叫‘Buns From Home’的店吃到的那款绝妙肉桂卷呢？对我来说，那正是甜度刚刚好的完美口感，不会太甜。

I was like, oh, how do I recreate the incredible cardamom bun that I had from London from a place called Buns From Home that to me was just like the perfect amount of sweetness, not too crazy sweet.

豆蔻的味道非常非常浓郁，面包内部也很湿润。

The cardamom was really really intense, and there was a moistness to the bun.

是的。

Mhmm.

它以一种非常美妙的方式可以撕开。

It pulled apart in this really beautiful way.

我当时想，

And I thought,

有没有办法？

is there a way?

是有办法的。

There is a way.

我需要了解更多。

I need to know more.

我想你可能会觉得豆蔻面包有点干。

Well, I think you might expect a cardamom bun to be kind of dry.

但这个的湿润度简直像商场里Cinnabon的水平。

But this is almost like mall Cinnabon levels moistness.

是的。

Yes.

但没有糖霜，而且尺寸更正常一些。

But without the icing, and, you know, in a more of a normal size.

我知道该怎么做。

I know exactly what to do.

我知道怎么弄到这个。

I know exactly how to get this.

我可以发你一张照片吗？

Can I let me send you a picture?

好。

Yeah.

我们来看看照片。

Let's look at a picture.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

那是层酥面团。

That is a laminated dough.

你得不到那种东西。

You're not gonna get that.

不过，我仍然知道怎么给你弄点真正好吃的。

However, I'd still know how to get you something real good.

它不会完全一样，但会有那种非常柔软美味的口感。

It won't be exactly the same, but it will have that very soft delicious texture.

我太兴奋了，能进行这场对话。

I'm so excited about this conversation.

我也很兴奋。

I'm so excited.

我也是。

Me too.

因为2007年一个圣诞前夜，我在我朋友家过夜，嗯。

Because one Christmas Eve in 2007, I spent the night at my friend's house, and Uh-huh.

我醒来时闻到了肉桂卷的香味。

I woke up to the scent of cinnamon buns being made.

嗯。

Mhmm.

结果发现，米西每年圣诞早晨都会做肉桂卷。

And turns out that Missy would make cinnamon buns every Christmas morning.

这几乎是他们家的传统。

That was like part of their tradition.

哦，我喜欢这个。

Oh, I love that.

而且味道太棒了。

And it was so incredible.

所以我一直在想，我能不能为我们这个印美混合的圣诞节做一款豆蔻卷？

And so I was thinking, could I do a cardamom bun for our, you know, Indo US Christmas?

因为我喜欢肉桂卷的地方就在于，它是一种风味与包装的混合体，看起来像是西方的斯堪的纳维亚风格，但却有着浓郁的印度风味。

Because that's what I love about the cardamom bun was it felt like this hybrid of flavors and packaging where it was like this western, you know, Scandinavian sort of thing, but it had this really Indian flavor.

太好吃了。

It was so good.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

这就是我的梦想。

This is my dream.

我想我可以帮你实现这个梦想。

I think I can help you make your dream come true.

好的。

Okay.

让我也加入这个对话。

Let me also add into this conversation.

在斯堪的纳维亚，尤其是瑞典，传统上会在12月13日制作一种甜点，那天是圣露西亚日。

In Scandinavia, definitely in Sweden, there is a dessert traditionally made on December 13, which is the Saint St.

圣露西娅，或者如果你是瑞典人的话，叫圣露西娅。

Santa Lucia or Santa Lucia, I think, if you're Swedish.

这是一种叫做卢塞卡特的瑞典甜点，是藏红花面包，通常会加入大量豆蔻糖。

It's a Swedish dessert called lussekater, which are saffron buns, and there is often a ton of cardamom sugar involved.

但我想说的是，许多文化中都有与豆蔻相关的甜点。

But this is all to say I think many cultures have, like, a cardamom related dessert

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是在节日期间。

Especially at the holidays.

所以我觉得这非常合适，也很棒。

So I think it's very appropriate and wonderful.

所以我要告诉你一件事。

So I'm gonna tell you something.

我感觉你可能会有点惊讶，但我相信你能做到

I I sense that you're probably gonna get a little bit freaked out, but I think you can do

它。

it.

好的。

Okay.

你有没有吃过日本牛奶面包，或者你知道那是什么吗？

So have you ever had Japanese milk bread, or do you know what it is?

我们在一起吃三明治时吃过。

I have in sandwiches that we've eaten together.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

Combii。

The Combii.

超级柔软的白面包。

Super soft white bread.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

在Combii r a p。

At Combii r a p.

是的。

Yes.

最好的三明治。

The best sandwich.

最好的三明治。

The best sandwich.

是的。

Yes.

超级，超级软。

Super, super soft.