与Wondery的赫尔南·洛佩兹对话的建议热线

所以我们希望在今年即将到来的返校季达到约25万美元的销售额。

So we're hoping to reach about $250,000 this upcoming back to school season.

太棒了。

Awesome.

在我们进一步讨论之前，告诉我们你的问题吧。

And before we get into this further, tell us tell us your question.

我一直以来的顾虑是，如何在保持我以‘Studious Monday’这个名称建立的信任的同时，许多我服务的家庭却难以发音。

So my hesitation has been around preserving the trust that I've built under the name Studious Monday, but many of the families I serve struggle to pronounce it.

我的许多客户都是移民家庭，我不确定是应该继续沿用这个名称，还是转向一个更简单、更容易理解的名字。

Many of my families are immigrant families, and I and I don't know whether to keep growing the name or transition to something simpler or more accessible.

所以你提到的，是关于你品牌名称本身的问题？

So the question to you're talking about literally the name of your brand?

我的公司名称。

My company name.

是的。

Yep.

Studious Monday

Studious Monday.

是的

Yeah.

Study us

Study us.

Studious Monday

Studious Monday.

Study us

Study us.

是的

Yeah.

而且

And

所以这就是你正在纠结的问题。

and so that's this is sort of what you're grappling with.

好的。

Alright.

赫尔南，我想请你谈谈。

Hernan, I wanna bring you in.

首先，对纳瓦尔有什么想法或问题吗？

First of all, thoughts or questions for Nawal.

首先，恭喜你。

First of all, congratulations.

创业并为你所热爱的社区、以及明确的消费者需求提供服务，是创业者最富有成就感的部分之一。

Starting a business, serving a community that you love and a very clear consumer need is one of the most rewarding parts of being an entrepreneur.

我想问你，你是怎么想到这个名字的？

And and I wanted to ask you, how did you come up with a name?

名字对你来说意味着什么？

What does a name mean to you?

我当时在想那个女孩。

So I was thinking about the girl.

我在想她会具备怎样的特质。

I was thinking about her and the kind of characteristics she would carry.

最终，她是个勤奋的学生，喜欢在周一早晨醒来，打扮好去上学。

And ultimately, she is studious and she loves to wake up on Monday mornings and get dressed and go to school.

于是我将这两个词组合在一起，创造了这个名字，它甚至变成了一种动词，比如你会说，‘过一个勤奋的周一’之类的，我和朋友们也玩过这个文字游戏，最后我们决定就叫这个名字。

So I put those two words together and I created this name and it became kind of like a verb, like, you know, have a studious Monday kind of thing, or, you know, there was like a play on it, like between me and my friends, we played around with it, and we're like, okay, we're just gonna call it this.

当我开始创办Wondery时，我花了很多时间思考品牌名称的含义以及人们会如何理解这个名字。

I would say, I I thought a lot when I started Wondery about the brand name and what it signifies and how people will perceive the name.

Wondery意味着‘奇迹的工厂’。

And Wondery was the factory of wonder.

当我告诉别人这是它的含义时，有一半人说，哦，这很合理。

And when I told people that's what it was, half said, Oh, that makes sense.

另一半人则说，哦，我没想到这层意思。

And half said, Oh, I did not appreciate that that's what it was.

但这个名字确实将产品与消费者的情感体验紧密地联系在了一起。

But it really was a name that connected the product in a very emotional level with what the consumers were experiencing.

我对品牌设定了一些明确的标准，其中之一是，我希望名字的音节不要超过四个。

I had a number of bright lines for the brand, and one of them was, I wanna know more than four syllables.

这是我听过的一条建议。

And that's advice that I've heard.

我不记得第一次是谁说的，但当你告诉我‘Studyous Monday’时，我脑子里第一个念头是，也许这多了一个音节。

I don't know from whom the first time, but I, when you told me, Studyous Monday, the first thing that I heard in the back of my head was, maybe that's one syllable too many.

是的。

Yeah.

任何需要解释的品牌名称，都会在你和消费者之间增加一道不必要的障碍。

And any brand name that needs explaining puts another barrier between you and the consumer that you don't necessarily want.

所以，这还只是在你考虑到一些家人和客户难以发音之前。

So, that's before you got into the fact that some of your families have trouble pronouncing it, some of your clients.

对。

Yes.

所以，如果你打算更换品牌，现在就是最好的时机。

So, if you're going to change the brand, I think now is the time to do it.

所以当品牌还年轻的时候。

So when the brand is young.

我会给你一本推荐的书。

And I'll give you a book to read.

这本书叫《你好，我的名字真棒》。

It's called Hello, My Name is Awesome.

我认为作者是亚历山德拉·沃特金斯。

I think Alexandra Watkins is the author.

我读完这本书后，正是它启发我创造了Wondery这个品牌。

And I actually, after reading the book, that was the the book that led me to come up with a brand Wondery.

我已经把这本书推荐给很多创业者了。

I've given it to so many entrepreneurs.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这太有帮助了。

That's so helpful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

所以，纳瓦尔，我很好奇，当你展望五年后，你对这家公司的愿景是什么？

So, Nawal, I I'm curious, what is when you sort of look out five years from now, what is the kind of the vision that you have for this for this company?

我的愿景是让每个穆斯林学校都能用上。

My vision is to be in every single Muslim school across the nation.

当然，长远来看，你必须外包生产、组建销售团队等等。

So and down and down the road, of course, you're gonna have to outsource manufacturing and and build a sales team and and and things like that.

关于名字，我的想法有点不同，不过我觉得这没什么大不了的。

You know, in terms of the name, I mean, I have a slightly different I don't think it's a big deal, by the way.

我觉得 Studyous 或 Studyous 挺酷的。

I think Studyous or Studyous is kinda cool.

但你有没有想过，能不能在名字里融入某种类似‘端庄’的概念？

But, you know, have you thought about maybe integrating the word somehow, like, modest?

不是直接用‘端庄’这个词，而是它的含义，比如‘modestly’之类的？

Not exactly that word, but the idea or maybe, like, you know, modestly or some something like that in the name?

目前我有两个争议点。

There's two areas of contention with me right now.

比如，我是否应该顺应当前的端庄时尚潮流，将‘端庄’这个词融入品牌名称中？

Like, do I play into this trend of, like, modest fashion right now, you know, and incorporate modest into, you know, the brand name?

还是应该让服装自己说话，让人们看到后自然知道它是端庄的，而我不必明说？

Or or do I just let the clothes speak for themselves where people see it and know that it's modest without me actually saying it?

是的。

Yeah.

有意思。

Interesting.

我的看法是，这值得融入品牌中，当然你可能有不同的看法。

I mean, I I I think it could my view and you may have a different view.

我的观点是，把这一点融入品牌是有价值的。

My view is it's worth sort of building that in to the brand.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，尤其是因为这本来就是它的本质。

I mean, especially because that's what it is.

当然。

Sure.

唯一的限制是，如果你将来打算将这个品牌扩展到如此广泛的范围，以至于‘端庄’这个词会成为限制，那才是不这么做的唯一理由。

The only limitation, if if you feel in the future you would expand so far of that brand that it will be limiting, that will be the only reason not to do it.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，你有一天会生产不端庄的服装吗？

I mean, is there a chance you may make immodest clothing one day?

大概不会。

Probably not.

大概不会。

Probably not.

大概不会。

Probably not.

所以今天你们只给女生做校服，但我可以想象，家长既有女孩也有男孩。

So today you do uniforms only for girls, but I can imagine that the parents have girls and boys.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

很好的问题。

Fair question.

所以，当初就是这样的。

So, that's what it was.

最初是先从女生开始的。

It started off as girls first.

后来我去学校时，学校说：你知道的，我不希望我的家庭要去两家不同的店。

And then when I went to the schools, the schools are like, well, you know, I don't want my family going to two different shops.

去两个不同的地方。

To two different places.

是的。

Yeah.

两个不同的地方。

Two different places.

所以我把男装也纳入了我们的系列，打造成适合穆斯林家庭的整体方案。

So I incorporated boys wear into our collection and made it like a Muslim family thing.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

但我的意思是，是的，这些确实都是需要考虑的因素。

But I mean, yeah, those are all definitely things to consider.

你知道的。

You know?

我的意思是，我们之前在展会上也见过像Parachute Home这样的品牌。

I mean, again, it's, you know, we've had brands in the show like Parachute Home.

我的意思是，Parachute Home是个大企业，但它跟降落伞毫无关系。

I mean, Parachute Home is a big business, but it has nothing to do with parachutes.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

做得非常好。

It's done very well.

所以我们在节目中邀请过很多品牌，但它们并不一定是威柏派克。

So we've had a lot of brands on the show that not aren't necessarily Warby Parker.

这跟眼镜有什么关系？

What does it have to do with glasses?

不过这个名字很棒。

It's a great name though.

是的。

Yeah.

还有Tom's鞋子，我只是随便说说。

And so Tom's shoes, you know, I'm just I'm spitballing.

但我认为你可以尝试不同的名字。

But I I think that there you could you could experiment with different names.

你知道，好吧。

You know, so so okay.

那我该找谁来测试呢？

So who do I test this on?

我该去哪里做这个测试？

Like, where do I go to get this tested?

有没有什么工具？

Like, are there tools?

有没有什么资源？

Are there resources?

还是说，有没有一些圈子或场合，可以像你说的那样，试着玩一玩这个品牌名字，然后再去注册商标？

Or are is there like a are there circles or spaces where I could, like like you said, play around with this, you know, with a a brand name, you know, and and then trademarking it.

但具体该找谁，在哪里呢？

But, like, who and where?

我就直接跟你那些潜在客户聊聊。

I would just talk to the people that that you know, who are your potential customers.

我的意思是，我觉得你不需要做焦点小组，而且说实话，我并不总是信任焦点小组。

I mean, that I don't think you need focus groups or and and frankly, I don't always trust focus groups.

我敢肯定你在一些节目上做过焦点小组，结果观众讨厌得要死，但节目却大获成功。

And I'm sure you went through focus groups on some of your shows where the people hated it and then the show was a hit.

我知道这个节目就发生过这种情况。

So I know that happened with this show.

我们其实没有做，我们做的只是内部听审来剪辑，但没有针对潜在听众做焦点小组。

We did not actually we we didn't test what what we did do were internal listening sessions to edit, but not focus groups with potential listeners.

但我推荐的那本书里有一些关于如何思考这个问题的资源。

But the book that I recommended has some resources about how to think about it.

那本书是在大语言模型出现之前写的。

That book was written before LLMs.

所以，在你进行创意时，一定要跟ChattyPT和Claude聊聊。

So definitely, as you're ideating, talk to ChattyPT and to Claude.

它们在提供消费者反应方向方面会非常出色。

They will be great at giving you direction into how a consumer would respond.

它们实际上是进行所谓合成研究的工具，你可以雇佣合成焦点小组，而且它们反应迅速。

They're actually tools that do something called synthetic research, where you can hire synthetic focus groups, and and they act quickly.

它们假装成普通人，对你提供的品牌进行一到十分的评分，并告诉你为什么它们会或不会做出这样的反应。

They pretend to be people, and they give you answers that rate the brands that you give them from one to 10, and they tell you why they respond and not respond to.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

好的。

Okay.

哇。

Wow.

这真是绝佳的建议。

That's awesome advice.

纳瓦尔，非常感谢你来电。

Nawal, thank you so much for calling in.

这个品牌目前叫Studyous或Studyous Monday。

The brand is called, for now, Studyous or Studyous Monday.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

随时告诉我们进展。

Keep us posted.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常荣幸。

Such a pleasure.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我对这种命名理念感到矛盾，因为我们确实见过一些拥有荒谬名字的大品牌。

I mean, it's it's a I'm conflicted over this idea of names because we do you know, we have had major brands that have stupid names.

甚至连创始人自己都承认这些名字很蠢，但它们却成了价值数十亿美元的公司。

And and even the founders admit they have stupid names, but they become multibillion dollar companies.

但在他们创业初期，为了让人记住他们的品牌和产品，他们付出了多得多的努力。

But they had to do so much more work at the beginning of their journeys to get people to remember what they are and what product to associate it with.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这确实没错。

Well, they that's true.

但话说回来，还有很多种名字，你根本想象不出人们会说：我不知道。

But, I mean, there are again, you know, there are all kinds of names that you just you can imagine people would say, I don't know.

你知道吗？

You know?

这能让我对这个产品或这个东西产生什么联想呢？

What does that tell me about this product or this this thing?

而且他们也做得很好。

And and they do just fine.

你知道吗？

You know?

做得很好。

Just fine.

苹果。

Apple.

对吧？

Right?

苹果作为苹果公司的名字合理吗？

Is Apple a logical name for Apple?

苹果

Apple

是一家电脑公司？

is a computer company?

对。

Right.

这毫无道理。

That makes no sense.

它是世界上最大的公司之一。

It's the one of the biggest companies in the world.

所以你看。

So there you go.

好吧。

Okay.

广告之后，另一位听众将带来另一个商业难题。

Next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge.

我是盖伊·拉兹，我们正在这里的建议热线中回答您的商业问题，节目名为《我是如何打造这个的》。

I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

欢迎回到《我是如何打造这个的》建议热线。

Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.

我是盖伊·拉兹，今天我将与洪南·洛佩兹——Wondery的创始人——一起接听大家的来电。

I'm Guy Raz, and today, I'm taking your calls with Hernan Lopez, founder of Wondery.

让我们接入下一位来电者。

And let's bring in our next caller.

你好。

Hello.

大家好。

Hi, folks.

我叫凯西·奥利里。

My name is Casey O'Leary.

我是蛇河种子合作社的联合创始人兼首席执行官，我们的总部位于爱达荷州博伊西。

I'm the cofounder and CEO of the Snake River Seed Cooperative, which is headquartered in Boise, Idaho.

我们是一家由员工和农民共同拥有的合作社，种植多种园艺种子。

We are a worker and farmer owned coop where we grow a wide variety of garden seeds.

我们将这些种子装袋，并通过我们的网站以及大盆地西部地区约80家其他商店进行销售。

We put those into packets, and we sell them on our website and in around 80, other stores in the Intermountain West.

不错。

Nice.

欢迎来到节目，凯西。

Welcome to the show, Casey.

所以，这是一个合作社。

So, it's a cooperative.

你能简单解释一下它是怎么运作的吗？

So can you kind of explain how briefly how the hell works?

我们是一家种子公司，由一群不同的农民和公司员工共同拥有。

We are a seed company, and we are co owned by a bunch of different farmers and also by the employees that work for the company.

所以，它是一个合法的合作社。

So there's so it's a legal cooperative.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

我们有一个叫‘种子 rodeo’的活动，农民们报名负责培育不同的种子作物。

We have what we call it the seed rodeo, and, basically, farmers sign up for stewardship of different seed crops.

每次我们需要种植时，都会由一位农民来负责种植。

And every time we need to grow them out, one of the farmers, grows them out.

种子也是他们收获吗？

And harvest the seeds as well?

是的。

Yep.

他们收获种子。

They harvest the seeds.

他们还会清理种子等等。

They clean the seeds and all of that.

然后当种子运到合作社时，我们会进行发芽测试。

And then when they come into the coop, we germination test them.

我们会把种子装进包装袋，然后通过销售渠道分发出去。

We put them into packets, and then we distribute them through our sales.

跟我说说你们的种子都卖到哪里去。

And tell me about where you sell your seeds.

是的。

Yeah.

我们通过自己的网店销售种子。

We sell them we have a we have a web store, and we sell them on our web store.

此外，我们在落基山脉西部地区约80家不同的零售商处销售种子。

And then we also sell them we're in about 80 different retailers around the Intermountain West region.

比如园艺中心、五金店、天然食品杂货店之类的场所。

So garden centers, hardware stores, natural food grocery stores, stuff like that.

能跟我聊聊你们的销售情况吗？

And tell me a little bit about your sales.

你们做得怎么样？

How'd you guys do?

你们现在情况如何？

How how how are you doing?

是的。

Yeah.

我们每年的销售额大约是40万美元。

We're about 400,000 a year in sales.

这很不错。

It's pretty good.

这40万美元的销售额能覆盖所有成本吗？

And and is that $400,000 in sales, does that cover all your costs?

能支付工资和其他开销吗？

Does that pays salaries and everything?

能覆盖。

It does.

我的意思是，种子确实如此。

I mean, seeds are yeah.

能覆盖。

It does.

勉强而已。

Barely.

好的。

Alright.

在我们进一步深入之前，你遇到的挑战是什么？你需要哪方面的帮助？

Before we dive in further, what is your challenge that you're you'd like some help with?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正好点出了问题。

I mean, I think this gets at it.

你知道，种子一般来说是很便宜的。

I you know, seeds are cheap, generally speaking.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这并不是说对。

I mean, this isn't this is a Right.

我们正在与一家跨国行业竞争。

We're competing with a a multinational industry.

对。

Right.

你可以去家得宝，花15美分或一美元左右就能买到。

You can go into Home Depot and buy a 15¢ or whatever to a dollar.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

对吧？

Right?

这些算是

And these are kind

我也不知道。

of I don't know.

我的意思是，我不想说这是劣质种子，但它们确实是。

I mean, I don't wanna say garbage seeds, but they are.

它们没有得到精心的照料。

They're not being stewarded with care.

它们没有，而且种植这些种子的人也拿不到体面的工资。

They're not and the people who are growing them are not making a living wage.

是的。

Yeah.

但你知道，利润空间很薄。

But, you know, margins are tight.

就像你所说的，这40万美元是从售价介于2.79到4.79美元一包的产品中赚来的。

Like you said, I mean, this $400,000 is coming from selling something that's, you know, somewhere between $2.79 and $4.79 a packet.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们现金流很紧张。

So we struggle the cash flow.

因此我想问大家，拥有一个适应本地区域的种子供应体系，能带来巨大的公共利益。

So my question for you all is I'm try there's a huge tremendous public benefit to having a regionally adapted seed supply.

我们在我们的生物区域很好地讲述了这个故事。

And we do a good job of telling that story in our bioregion.

我的问题是，我们如何以有创意的方式利用这种公共利益来增加收入？

My question is, how can we leverage that public benefit in creative ways that could increase our revenue?

很好。

Great.

好的。

Okay.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，问题是：我们可以做些什么来为业务带来更多现金流？

So I think if I'm reading which lines is how can what are the things we can do to generate more cash for the business?

这是个很好的问题。

This is a great question.

赫尔南，我想请你谈谈看法。

Hernan, I wanna bring you in here.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

首先，祝贺你们所做的事情。

First of all, congratulations on what you guys do.

听到有人充满热情地以合作模式创造产品，并且能够与那些只关心销量和利润的工业化公司竞争，这简直令人难以置信。

It's it's incredible that to to hear a story of people who are creating a product passionately and in the cooperative model that are getting through and competing against industrialized companies that really all they care about is volume and margin.

在今天的40万美元销售额中，有多少是直接销售的，有多少是通过零售商销售的？

Of the $400,000 today, how much is sold directly versus through retailers?

我们大约40%的销售额来自官网，60%来自批发业务。

It's about 40% of our sales come from our web store and 60% are through our wholesale program.

这已经非常显著了。

Oh, it's so significant already.

因此，我认为你们应该尽可能地提升通过官网的销售，因为零售商基本上都会让你与其他他们拥有的替代品竞争。

And so I would think that you want to build that sells through your website to the highest level that you can, because the retailers, by and large, they're always going to make you compete with other alternatives that they have.

你们希望把产品从价格敏感型客户转向注重故事性、热情和使命的客户。

And you want to move your product away from the price sensitivity customers into the storytelling and passion and purpose clients.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们能提供的是人们所需要的技能和知识。

And I think, you know, I think another thing that we bring to the table is we have this skill set and this knowledge that people want.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，我们申请到了一些补助金，用于开设关于如何培育种子、保存种子以及从种子种植植物的课程。

And so we've gotten grant money to teach classes about how to grow seeds and how to save seeds and how to grow plants from seeds and things.

所以我们做了很多教育类的工作，但主要是通过申请补助金，然后向公众免费提供这些教育内容。

And so we've done a lot of the educational kinds of stuff, but we've mostly done that through getting grants and then offering that education for free to the public.

因此，在某种程度上，我觉得我们或许可以利用的是，将人们与他们想学习的这种技能联系起来。

And so, you know, in some ways, I feel like part of the part of what we might be able to leverage is this, you know, being able to connect people somehow with this skill set that they want to learn about.

你知道的？

You know?

我的意思是，你看。

I I mean, look.

补助金，正如你肯定同意的那样，并不是一个商业模式。

Grants, as you, I'm sure, would agree, are not a business model.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，补助金很好，但你必须经营一个可持续的业务。

I mean, they're great, but but you have to run a sustainable business.

这里可能存在一种情况，凯西，你和你的专家团队本质上也可以成为顾问。

And I there there could be a world here, right, where essentially, Casey, you and and your band of experts are essentially also consultants.

你们按小时收费，帮助人们规划该在哪里种植、如何规划。

You are charging per hour to help people figure out where to plan things, how to plan things.

甚至可能参与打造你们业务的一部分。

Maybe even working with sort of, you know, creating a part of your business.

你可能不喜欢这个想法，但可以尝试识别博伊西那些真正希望拥有完美花园的高净值人群。

And you may not like this idea, but it could be really interesting where you sort of identify high net worth folks in Boise who really wanna have awesome things in their garden.

我认为，通过开设收费课程或提供咨询服务，并深入服务你们最好的客户，会是一个很有意思的机会。

I think that there could be an interesting opportunity with with sort of creating classes that cost money or or some consulting as well and and really going deeper with your best customers.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我的意思是，你们有做订阅服务之类的吗？

Some some I mean, are you guys doing subscriptions or anything?

有没有尝试过这方面的实验？

Any or or have you tried experimenting with that?

是的。

Yeah.

我们有一个每月种子订阅俱乐部。

We do a seed of the month club.

哦，不错。

Oh, nice.

人们可以注册，每个月都会收到一包种子，还会附上一封关于该品种的小通讯。

So people can sign up and they get a seed every month with a little newsletter about that particular variety that comes in the mail.

你们这个每月种子订阅有多少客户？

And how many customers do you have on that seed of the month?

现在将近两百人了。

Almost 200 now.

好的。

Okay.

所以，盖伊，我原本以为你会建议的另一个方向是把专家当作影响力人物来使用。

So actually the advice, Guy, that I thought you were going to go was in another direction, which is to use the experts as influencers in a way.

啊，是的。

Ah, yeah.

我知道这是个敏感词，但想想看，尤其是当每位专家都专精于某一种种子时，为每个人制作一系列竖屏视频。

I know that's a charge word, but think of them, especially if each of them is tied to one specific seed and is the expert in that seed, give them each one series of vertical videos.

我说竖屏是因为现在人们在手机上观看娱乐和教育内容都是这样做的。

I'm saying vertical because that's how people now experience entertainment and education on mobile.

我指的是时长很短的视频，不超过三分钟，短到三十秒也可以。

And I'm talking about videos that are short in nature, no more than three minutes, as short as thirty seconds.

通过统一的视觉风格、叙事方式，以及让每位专家以相同方式讲述他们与特定种子的关联，你实际上可以逐步建立起一个社区，让人们因为热爱学习如何种植种子而加入，最终意识到他们自己并不会真正去种植。

And by having a unified look, and storytelling narrative, and a way in which all of them speak about their association with that specific seed, and you can essentially start to build a community of people who come for the passion of learning how to plant seeds and eventually realize that they're never going to do it on their own.

所以，他们最终很可能会直接在你的网站上购买这些种子。

So, they're probably going to end up buying them from you directly on your website.

你的零售市场很可能已经达到上限。

Your retail market is most likely capped.

你的直接面向消费者的市场将让你能够朝着一个方向发展，你只需要找到更多对价格不敏感、并与你建立基于热情而非实用性的关系的客户，如果这说得通的话。

Your direct to consumer market will allow you to essentially grow into a direction where all you need to do is find more customers that will be less price sensitive and will develop a relationship with you that is passion based and not utility based, if that makes sense.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我非常喜欢，因为确实，有时候你会觉得，一包种子卖44美元79美分，相比你在家得宝货架上能买到的价格，似乎有点贵。

I love that because yes, it sometimes it seems like, you know, $44 and 79¢ for a packet of seeds, you know, compared to what you might be able to buy on the shelf at Home Depot.

但当你想想那包种子里面包含的东西，没错，价值非凡。

But when you think about what is inside of that packet of seeds, I mean, it's Right.

里面蕴含着巨大的价值。

So much value in there.

所以，找到那些真正理解为什么一个地区的人需要掌握这项技能、长期从事这项工作并得到良好支持的人，非常重要。

And so, yeah, finding the folks who really understand why it's important to have people in a region be skilled up to do this work and do it for the long term and be supported well-to-do it.

我觉得你说得对。

I think you're right.

那些就是我们的目标人群。

Those are our those are our people.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，尤其是当你解释的时候，你的热情很明显——我已经被说服了，但现在你得把这消息传播出去。

You know, there's a and especially because when you're explaining that and and your passion is clear I mean, I'm sold here, but now you've gotta you gotta get that the the word out.

有一种豆子，叫 heirloom beans（传统品种豆子）。

There's a a brand of beans, heirloom beans.

我相信它们总部在加利福尼亚，叫 Rancho Gordo，他们在全美范围内分销。

I I believe they're based here in California called Rancho Gordo, and they distribute around the country.

想加入他们的每月订阅服务，甚至得排队等候。

There's like a waiting list to actually to get on their subscription of the month club or whatever it's called.

他们卖豆子。

They sell beans.

对吧？

Right?

你可以在赛夫韦买到芸豆、利马豆或者鹰嘴豆之类的。

You can go to Safeway and buy pinto beans or lima beans or, you know, chickpeas.

但他们卖这些传统品种，并且声称他们是以一种能让味道更好的方式种植的。

But they, you know, they're they sell these heirloom varieties and and they grow them in a way that they claim and they argue that they taste better.

我吃过。

I've had them.

味道很棒。

They're great.

他们做得非常非常成功。

They have done really, really well.

这是一个值得研究的有趣案例。

And it's an interesting case study to look at.

我强烈建议你去看看Rancho Gordo在做什么，看看能不能借鉴一些他们的理念。

I would really urge you to look at what they're doing at Rancho Gordo and see if you can sort of apply some of those those, you know, those ideas.

是的。

Yeah.

豆类俱乐部。

Bean club.

我觉得我知道几个参与他们豆类俱乐部的人。

I think I know several people who are involved in their bean club.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

祝你好运，凯西。

Good luck to you, Casey.

这家公司的名字叫爱达荷州的蛇河种子合作社。

It the business is called the Snake River Seed Cooperative in Idaho.

谢谢你的来电。

Thanks for calling in.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

恭喜。

And congrats.

嗯，埃尔南，很高兴你能来参加我们的节目。

Well, Hernan, it's been awesome to have you on.

而且，你知道，我得提一下，你确实做了很多这类事情。

And, you know, I I should mention, I mean, you do a lot of this.

你是一位投资者，与各种创业者合作。

You're an investor, and you work with all kinds of entrepreneurs.

我的意思是，由于你在媒体领域的专长，你当然为许多大型媒体公司提供咨询，但你也做了大量这种正式和非正式的指导工作。

I mean, you are because of your expertise in media, you, of course, do a lot of consulting with with major companies around media, but you also do a lot of this sort of formal and informal advising.

我主要通过基金进行投资。

I I do I I invest primarily through funds.

我不直接投资于公司。

I don't invest in companies directly.

这些基金在这方面比我要擅长得多。

The funds are better at doing that than I am.

这确实是一份全职工作，但我总是喜欢和创业者讨论他们的挑战和机遇。

It is really a full time job, but I always love talking to entrepreneurs about their challenges and their opportunities.

在我们接触的所有公司和创始人中，叙事是他们摆脱竞争性边际、功能型困境，进而构建企业价值的关键部分。

And in all of the companies that we talk to, all the founders that we talk to today, narrative is a big part of how they get the product away from that competitive margin base, utility base, you know, rut into a place where they can really build enterprise value.

Hernan，在你离开之前，我有个问题想问你。

Hernan, before I let you go, question for you.

如果你现在知道一些事情，而这些事情在你2015年刚创办Wondery时能帮到你，你会给当时的自己什么建议？

If there was something that you now know, right, that you that would have been helpful for you when you were launching Wondery and, you know, when you're thinking about this in 2015, what advice could you have given yourself back then if if you go back in time?

我希望自己能早点开始。

I wish I had started sooner.

当然，不是指这个点子，因为Wondery的时机非常好，但我真希望我早点成为创业者。

Obviously, not that idea because Wondery was very timely, but I wish I'd started as an entrepreneur sooner.

大多数人因为各种原因，花太长时间才迈出这一步。

Most people take too long to make the leap for a number of reasons.

从零到一真的很难，但这段旅程非常值得。

It's really difficult to go from zero to one, but the journey is so rewarding.

一旦你下定决心要提出一个想法并将其转化为产品，你就很难再想回到不想当创业者的状态了。

And once you've got to the conviction that you want to come up with an idea and turn it into a product, it's really difficult to go back to wanting to not not be an entrepreneur.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

好了，Hernan，非常感谢你来参加节目。

Well, Hernan, thank you so much for coming

谢谢你能让我再次回到节目中。

back onto the show.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

能重新联系真是太好了。

Was so great to reconnect.

很高兴你能来。

It's great having you on.

如果你错过了赫尔南的那期节目，或者还没听过，我们会在节目笔记中放上链接。

And if you missed Hernan's episode or you haven't heard it yet, we'll put a link to it in the show notes.

这是一个非常、非常精彩的故事。

It's a really, really good story.

这是我在那次采访中最喜欢的片段之一。

And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

我记得到了那个月底，看着损益表，我们的收入大约有一万美元。

I remember looking at the p and l statement by the end of that month, and we had maybe $10,000 in revenue.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你当时有六名员工吗？

And you had a staff of six?

我们有六名员工。

We had a staff of six.

一万美金连这些成本都cover不了吗？

And $10,000 ain't gonna cover those costs?

不行。

Nope.

不行。

No.

根本不够。

They wasn't.

就算我们做到十倍、一百倍，也达不到我原本以为的那样规模的大生意。

Like, even if we get to 10 times this, a 100 times this is not going to be a big business of the scale that I thought that that it would.

我记得当时心想，天哪。

And I remember thinking, oh my god.

我到底干了什么？

What did I do?

嘿。

Hey.

非常感谢您本周收听本节目。

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

顺便说一下，请务必关注我的通讯简报。

And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.

您可以在 guyraz.com 或 Substack 上免费订阅。

You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack.

当然，如果您正在经营一项业务并希望登上本节目，请发送一段一分钟的语音留言，向我们简单介绍您的业务以及您目前面临的问题或挑战，因为我们非常乐意帮助您解决这些问题。

And, of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them.

您可以通过 hibt@id.Wondery.com 发送语音备忘录，或拨打 1804331298 与我们联系。

You can send us a voice memo at hibt@id.Wondery.com or call us at 1804331298.

请在留言中告诉我们如何联系您，我们也会将所有这些信息放在播客的描述中。

Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.

本集节目由凯瑟琳·赛弗制作，音乐由拉姆廷·阿拉布卢伊创作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

本集由约翰·伊萨贝拉剪辑，音频工程师为奎西·李。

It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer with Kwesi Lee.

我们的制作团队还包括亚历克斯·钟、伊莱恩·库茨、吉尔、伊娃·格兰特、凯西·埃尔南、克里斯·马西尼、萨姆·保尔森、卡丽·汤普森和拉梅尔·伍德。

Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Gill, Eva Grant, Casey Hernan, Chris Massini, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Ramel Wood.

我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听《我是如何打造这个实验室的》建议热线。

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.