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大家好，欢迎收听《我是如何打造这个实验室》的咨询热线节目。
Hello, and welcome to the Advice Line on how I built this lab.
我是盖伊·拉兹。
I'm Guy Raz.
在这里，我们会帮你解决生意上遇到的难题。
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
每周，我都会邀请一位传奇创始人，也就是我们节目以前的嘉宾，和我一起尽力帮助你。
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.
如果你正在创业，需要一些建议，给我们打个电话，说不定下期节目的嘉宾就是你。
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show.
我们的电话号码是1804331298。
Our number is 1804331298.
请留一段一分钟的语音，告诉我们你的业务情况，以及你希望得到帮助的问题或疑问。
Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
好的。
Alright.
那我们开始吧。
Let's get to it.
今天和我一起的是Neil Blumenthal，Warby Parker的联合创始人兼联合CEO。
Joining me today is Neil Blumenthal, cofounder and co CEO of Warby Parker.
Neil，欢迎再次来到节目。
Neil, welcome back to the show.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
很高兴能回来。
It's great to be back.
很高兴你能回来。
Great to have you back.
你第一次上节目是在2016年，当时你告诉我们，你和几个沃顿商学院MBA项目的朋友发现眼镜的价格远高于其应有的水平，于是你们决定采取行动。
You were first on the show back in 2016 telling us how you and a few friends from your MBA program at at Wharton basically realized that glasses were way too expensive than they had to be, and you decided to do something about it.
当然，你们的品牌Warby Parker就是这一行动的成果。
And, of course, your brand Warby Parker, was the result.
这真是一个了不起的成功故事，你们真的改变了人们购买眼镜的方式。
It's been a amazing success story, and you guys really changed the way people buy glasses.
顺便说一下，正在收听的朋友们，如果你们还没听过那一集，我们会在节目笔记里放上链接。
And by the way, for those of you listening who haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes.
那真是个很棒的故事，非常值得回去听听。
It's such an awesome story and well worth going back.
在接听听众来电之前，我想先问你一个关于你的联合创始人戴夫·吉尔博的问题，因为他当时也和你一起上过节目。
I wanna ask you a quick question before we get to our callers about your cofounder, Dave Gilboa, because he was also on the show with you.
你们从2010年创立Warby Parker到现在，这么多年过去了，仍然是联合首席执行官。
You guys are still the co CEOs of Warby Parker all these years later since you founded the company back in 2010.
2010年。
'10.
差不多十五年了。
It's almost fifteen years.
十五年了。
Fifteen years.
这很不常见。
This is quite uncommon.
我们看到过像Wayfair和其他一些品牌，联合创始人仍然一起经营公司。
We've seen it with, like, Wayfair and some other brands where the cofounders are still really running the thing together.
但像这样长期合作且成功的联合CEO确实很少见，对吧？
But it's uncommon, right, to have such a long working relationship that's successful co CEOs.
你们俩都是CEO。
You're both the CEOs.
你怎么解释这一点？
How do you explain that?
对我来说，我觉得很大程度上就是默契。
I mean, for me, I think a lot of it is just chemistry.
就像，人们之间有默契，恰好能合作，但这仍然需要努力。
Like, people have chemistry that just happens to work, but it still takes work.
在你们的关系中，是什么让这一切成为可能？
What works in it, you know, in your relationship to make that possible?
完全同意。
Completely.
我觉得归根结底就是信任和尊重。
I think it comes down to trust and and respect.
我们彼此无条件信任，可以做出任何决定，同时也会主动征求对方的意见。
We implicitly trust each other to make any sort of decision, but also to seek each other's advice.
如果我在思考一个难题，我会立刻想和戴夫分享，因为我知道，不管我有什么想法，他都能帮我完善，让它们变得更好。
And if I am thinking through a challenge, you know, I immediately want to share it with Dave because I know that, you know, whatever ideas I have, he'll enhance them and make them better.
而且我们现在还是坐在一起。
And we still sit next to each other.
十五年来，我们一直开会间隙坐在彼此旁边。
So for fifteen years, we've been sitting next to each other in between meetings.
我们经常交流。
We're constantly talking to each other.
你知道吗，我们经常在上班路上或者深夜互相打电话，这让我们的妻子很无奈。
You know, often, we might call each other on the way to work or late at night, much to our wives' chagrin.
但是呢……
But it...
这真是一段美好的合作关系，我们互相成就，让彼此变得更好。
It's just been a lovely partnership in which we both make each other better.
这真的很棒。
It's it's really great.
而且，你知道，眼镜或者眼镜技术已经存在很久了。
And, you know, I know glasses or the technology of glasses have been around for a long time.
基本上就是，把玻璃磨成镜片，然后装进镜框里。
It's it's basically, you know, ground down glass in in in frames.
但我知道你们真的很重视人工智能。
But I know you guys are really leaning into AI.
你能谈谈你们是如何把人工智能整合到你们实际生产的产品中的吗？
Can you talk about how you're integrating AI into the actual products that you make?
我们真的很兴奋。
We're really excited.
我们正在和谷歌合作，推出AI眼镜。
We're working with Google to launch AI glasses.
它们算是Warby Parker品牌的智能眼镜。
They're sort of Warby Parker branded intelligent eyewear.
你想想看，眼镜就戴在你脸上。
If you think about it, right, your glasses sit on your face.
它们能看到你所看到的，听到你所听到的，你可以看着一株植物、一栋建筑或一件艺术品，然后了解更多相关信息。
They're able to see what you see, hear what you hear, and you can look at a plant or a building or a piece of art, and you can learn more about it.
还能和说另一种语言的人交流，对方说话的时候，你的眼镜可以实时翻译。
Being able to communicate with somebody in another language, whereas they're speaking, your glasses could be translating in real time.
所以，这些都是对我们大家真正有帮助、有实用价值的东西。
So, you know, these are things that are really helpful and and useful for all of us.
我不是要比较什么，但我有一副Meta眼镜。
I mean, not not to, you know, make any comparisons, but I have a pair of Meta Glasses.
它们真的很酷。
They're really cool.
音质非常好。
The the the audio quality is great.
而且不用低头看手机，真的很棒。
And also not having to look down at a phone, it's really nice.
完全同意。
Completely.
就是，那种不用把手机从口袋里掏出来的自由，能持续一个小时。
Just, you know, the freedom to not take your phone out of your pocket for an hour.
我们太依赖这些移动设备了。
We we are beholden to these mobile devices.
我很期待有一天，手机能在口袋里或桌上多待一会儿。
And I'm excited for that day where it can stay in your pocket or on your desk for a little longer.
确实。
For sure.
好的。
Alright.
让我们先接第一位……
Let's take our first...
让我们把第一位来电者接进来。
Let's bring our first caller.
欢迎来到咨询热线。
Welcome to the Advice Line.
你现在连线的是Warby Parker的联合创始人尼尔·布卢门撒尔。
You are on with Neil Blumenthal, cofounder of Warby Parker.
请告诉我们你的名字、你从哪里打来，以及你的业务情况。
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
你好。
Hi.
我叫金伯·克兰德尔。
My name is Kimber Crandall.
我从犹他州打来，我是Pearl Pop的联合创始人。
I'm calling in from Utah, and I'm the cofounder of Pearl Pop.
Pearl Pop是第一款柔软又有嚼劲的牙膏，看起来像软糖，口感也像软糖，尝起来像零食，但它确实用干净的成分来护理你的牙齿。
Pearl Pop is the first soft and chewy toothpaste, looks more like and feels like a gummy and tastes like a treat, but it actually treats your teeth with clean ingredients too.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Awesome.
Kimber，我见过你。
Kimber, I met you.
我们……
We...
我见过你。
I met you.
你来过我的童书《Wow in the World》的签售会，能请你上节目我特别兴奋。
You came to one of my book signings for my kids' book, Wow in the World, and I'm so psyched to have you on the show.
所以在深入你的问题之前，我们先聊聊Pearl Pop吧。
So before we dive into all your question, let's talk a little bit about Pearl Pop.
这些是……
These are...
这是一种……
It's a...
它是……
It's...
它们是软糖。
They're gummies.
它们看起来像软糖，口感也像软糖，但实际上是牙膏。
They they look and they they sort of have the texture like a gummy candy, but it's basically toothpaste.
你嚼一嚼，然后刷牙，但它不会起泡沫。
You chew on it and then you brush your teeth, but it's not like foam.
它不是……
It's not...
它不会起泡。
It doesn't foam up.
跟我说说它是怎么用的。
Tell me how it works.
没错。
That's right.
没有泡沫，那是因为我们不含硫酸盐。
There is no foam, and that's because we don't have sulfates.
我们在研发这个产品的时候，就希望成分更干净，所以这也是整个过程中的一部分。
As we were formulating this, we wanted it to have cleaner ingredients, and so that was part of the process.
你把它放进嘴里，嚼几秒钟，然后开始刷牙。
So you pop it in your mouth, chew for a few seconds, and then you start brushing.
然后把这些珍珠颗粒刷到牙齿上，直到它们大部分溶解。
And you brush those pearl bits into your teeth until it mostly dissolves.
大概两分钟，吐掉，不要漱口。
So about two minutes, spit, don't rinse.
这样纳米羟基磷灰石和木糖醇就能在你刷完牙后继续发挥作用。
Then the nano hydroxyapatite and the Xylitol can keep working even after you brush.
好的。
Okay.
所以这个……
So the...
这个纳米羟基磷灰石，是的。
This nano hydroxyapatite, this is Yes.
它替代了氟化物。
Is replaces fluoride.
这些产品不含氟化物。
These do not have fluoride.
说说
Tell
跟我说说，为什么你们的产品里不含氟化物？
me tell me why you don't have fluoride in there.
我们刚开始做这个的时候，市场非常大。
There is a huge market when we were initially starting out doing this.
根据我们的调查和研究，大约50%的人要么不想要氟化物，要么在寻找替代品，因为他们不……
About 50% from our surveys and studies show that 50% either don't want fluoride or they're looking for an alternative because they don't...
他们对氟化物并不热衷。
They aren't passionate about fluoride.
所以我们想，那就先针对这部分受众吧，因为他们正在寻找替代品，也确实需要。
So we thought let's go after that audience first since they are looking for something and need an alternative.
好的。
Alright.
有道理。
Fair enough.
行。
Okay.
金伯，跟我们讲讲你是怎么进入这个行业的吧，因为我知道，我见过你。
Kimber, tell us a little bit about how you got into this because I know this because I met you.
你以前是电视台记者。
You were a TV reporter.
是的。
Yes.
拿过几个艾美奖，也过过那种生活。
One of few Emmys and, yeah, lived out that life.
现在对我来说是人生的第二阶段。
And now this is part two for me.
跟我说说，是什么……
Tell me what was the...
就是，是什么……
Like, what was the...
是什么促使你彻底转型，去开创全新的事业？
What precipitated that pivot to to just completely start something new?
对。
Yes.
2020年，我成了四个小女儿的单亲妈妈。
In 2020, I became a single mom of four little girls.
那时候，她们年龄在一岁到七岁之间。
At the time, they were between the ages of one and seven.
我知道我需要重新规划我的职业生涯，想清楚接下来该做什么。
And I knew I needed to revamp my career and figure out what to do.
所以我申请了杨百翰大学的EMBA项目，这最初只是一个课堂项目。
And so I applied to BYU to their executive MBA program, And this started out as a class project.
我们当时在上创业课。
We were in an entrepreneurial class.
我们研究的是有小孩的父母，以及睡前时间这个痛点。
We were studying parents of young kids and bedtime as the pain point.
那睡前时间到底难在哪里呢？
Well, what about bedtime was hard?
就是你需要让孩子去刷牙。
It's that you needed to get your kids to brush their teeth.
你叫了他们五遍。
You asked them five times.
他们把牙膏挤得到处都是，水槽上全是。
They squirted out all over the sink.
最后你干脆直接让他们去睡觉。
You finally just send them to bed.
你已经对他们吼过了。
You've yelled at them.
你觉得自己是个糟糕的家长。
You feel like a bad parent.
好吧。
Okay.
所以，如果我们能就此打住，给孩子提供一种让他们真正愿意刷牙、而且成分更干净的产品，那你笑起来会更自信，孩子也一样。
So if we can just stop right there and give your kids something that makes them actually want to brush and with cleaner ingredients, then you're going to smile more confidently and your kids will too.
明白了。
Got it.
而且都是直接面向消费者的。
And all direct to consumers.
都是通过网站销售的。
It's all being sold through the website.
大部分是通过网站。
Mostly through the website.
我们也有一些小型零售商，比如本地商店在卖。
We do have some small retailers like local stores that are carrying it.
不错。
Nice.
好的。
Okay.
那很好。
That's great.
告诉我们你今天带来了什么问题。
Tell us what question you brought in for us today.
我带来的问题是关于一个需要大量教育且对市场来说全新的产品。
The question I brought is with something that requires so much education and is completely new to the market.
你怎么才能创造一种运动或一个时刻，改变消费者的习惯，并传播认知，基本上把它从一个小众的东西变成主流的产品和行为？
How do you create a movement or a moment that changes the consumer habits and spreads awareness to essentially take it from something that's a niche to a mainstream product and behavior.
好的，尼尔·布鲁门塔尔，想请你加入。
All right, Neil Blumenthal, wanna bring you in.
你不必马上回答问题，但你对金伯有什么问题或想法吗？
You don't have to answer the question right away, but any questions for Kimber or thoughts?
当然。
Sure.
你知道，我觉得你的生意真正有趣的是，你实际上有两个客户，对吧？
You know, what I think is really interesting about your business is effectively have two customers, right?
是的。
Yes.
一个是使用牙膏的孩子，另一个是父母，对吧，通常是决策者和购买者。
You have the child that is using the toothpaste, and then you have the parent, right, that is generally the decision maker, the purchaser.
关于这两个不同的客户，你在他们如何围绕牙科护理、刷牙或购买牙刷和牙膏做决定方面学到了什么？
What have you learned about those two different customers on how they make decisions around sort of dental care or brushing teeth or purchasing toothbrushes and toothpaste?
这个问题问得好。
That's a great question.
我们发现，对孩子们来说，他们希望刷牙这件事好玩。
So what we have found is that for kids, they want it to be fun.
他们希望口味有趣。
They want the flavors to be fun.
所以，我们有蜜桃圈、酷炫葡萄、泡泡糖这些口味。
So, right, we've got peach rings, groovy grape, bubble gum.
而对父母来说，他们想知道产品是否有效。
And then for the parents, they want to know that it works.
事实上，科学证明效果非常好，以至于很多父母自己都在用蜜桃圈和泡泡糖口味。
In fact, the science has proven to look so good that we had a lot of parents that were using peach rings and bubble gum themselves.
所以他们要求我们推出成人系列。
And so they requested that we come out with an adult line.
所以现在我们也有成人款的薄荷之吻。
So we now have mint kiss for adults as well.
所以大人更看重科学依据，而孩子们更在意趣味性。
So the adults really care more about the science and the kids care about the fun.
你知道吗，这真的很像Warby Parker早期的样子。
You know, it does feel a lot like the early days of Warby Parker.
你的故事里让我印象很深的一点是，有太多卖点和信息点，对吧，这让它非常精准。
And one of the things that I'm struck by in your story is that there's so many sort of messages and selling points, right, that this makes Exactly.
睡前使用，这对健康更好，而且产品更纯净。
Bedtime This is actually better for your health and it's a cleaner product.
我们在Warby花了很多时间研究如何在这些不同的信息点中排优先级，最终都应该回归到对客户来说什么最重要。
We spent a lot of time at Warby trying to understand how do you prioritize a bunch of these different messages, and it should all come back to what is most important for the customer.
我们当时想传达的是，眼镜价格实惠、款式设计出色、还能在线购买。
We were trying to message glasses for a fraction of the price, great style and design, buying online.
我们还有社会使命，每卖出一副眼镜，就向需要的人捐赠一副。
We have a social mission, For every pair of glasses we sell, we distribute one to someone in need.
经过一轮又一轮的调查，我们发现，最重要的还是眼镜戴在脸上的效果。
And after survey after survey, what we found was what mattered first and foremost was how these glasses look on your face.
第二，价格。
Second, price.
你知道，第三，质量。
You know, third, quality.
最后，如果有的话，才是社会使命。
Last, if at all, would be the social mission.
哇。
Wow.
所以我们几乎从不把社会使命放在首位，而且很多时候，我们的客户直到购买之后才知道这件事。
So we almost never lead with the social mission and often many of our customers don't find out about that until after they've purchased with us.
所以，你知道，这很有趣。
So, you know, it's interesting.
你提到了功效，对吧？
You mentioned efficacy, right?
如果那是最重要的，那可能就是你要首先强调的。
If that is the most important thing, that might be what you lead with.
还有一件事让我羡慕的是，你能给人们提供样品。
One of the things that also I'm jealous of is that you can provide samples to people.
是的。
Yes.
你知道，和“是的”一样。
You know, with Yes.
而且你卖的产品有使用频率，可以重复使用，而你知道，普通美国人每两年才买一次眼镜。
And and you sell a product that has frequency and repeat use, whereas, you know, the average American buys glasses once every two years.
那
That's
就是。
it.
所以我完全同意你的看法，尼尔。
So I totally agree with you, Neil.
我的意思是，我觉得另一件事是，这是一种不含氟的产品。
I mean, I feel like the other thing is it's a non fluoride product.
我现在就直说了。
Now I'm gonna just say this flat out.
我用含氟牙膏。
I use fluoride toothpaste.
我得说，我的牙医……
I will say that my dentist...
这很不寻常。
This is very unusual.
他是那种很少见的不用氟的牙医。
He is one of these very rare dentists that doesn't use fluoride.
所以我对这两方面都有了解。
So I know both sides of this world.
我对这个没有特别强烈的看法，但那些有强烈看法的人，他们是一个群体，他们会分享信息。
I don't have strong feelings on it either way, but people who do have strong feelings on it, that is a tribe, and they they share information.
他们会放大有效的东西。
They amplify what works.
比如说……
Like...
所以我觉得，你知道，你不需要一下子改变所有人的习惯。
So I feel like you you know, it's not like you need to change everyone's habits at once.
你真的需要好好利用这个群体，因为你说的那个群体会以别人做不到的方式放大这些事情。
You really need to lean into this tribe because the tribe that you're talking about amplifies these things in ways that other people don't.
你明白我的意思吗？
Does that make sense?
当然明白。
Definitely.
我可能会想的是，这些客户群体有哪些，哪些是最大的，然后按大小排序，再一个一个地去攻克。
What I might think about is who are these customer segments, which are the biggest ones, and sort of rank order them and go after them sort of piece by piece.
比如说，如果不想用无氟牙膏的父母群体特别大，你怎么利用这个信息，尽可能多地参加家长播客去谈论它，或者在这些媒体上做广告。
So for example, if, parents that don't want a fluoride free toothpaste is particularly large, how do you sort of use that messaging and go on as many parent podcasts as possible to speak about it or, advertise on those mediums.
然后问题就是，好的。
And then the question is, okay.
那你怎么才能让尽可能多的孩子用上这个产品呢？
Well, how do you get this product in the hands of as many kids as possible?
这可能需要和孩子们办生日派对的地方合作，还有更多的商店和分销渠道。
And that might be partnering with places where kids have birthdays and more and more stores and distribution.
你知道，如果大多数人已经通过现有的商店购买牙膏，那你怎样才能让产品出现在那些其他产品旁边呢？
You know, if most of the people already buy their toothpaste through existing stores, you know, how can you be alongside where those other products are?
因为归根结底，改变习惯真的很难，你几乎不想去改变。
Because at the end of the day, changing habits is really hard and you almost don't want to change.
你要接受世界的现状，然后把你的产品融入进去。
You wanna take the world as it is and then sort of insert your product into it.
我是说，可能有几百万家长，但你真的应该专注于，比如，一万个家长，对吧，他们活跃在TikTok或Facebook群组里，他们……
I mean, there are probably millions, but you wanna really focus on, like, 10,000 parents, right, who live on TikTok or in Facebook groups who are...
他们围绕这些问题聚集在一起，比如刷牙、无氟牙膏等等。
Who sort of gather around some of these issues, brushing, fluoride free, etcetera.
试用装让……
Sampling makes...
就是……
Is...
对我来说，我完全同意尼尔的看法。
To me, I completely agree with Neil.
就是不停地发样品、发样品、发样品。
It's like sample, sample, sample.
你可以做这些小包装，然后你……
You can make these small packets and you...
谁愿意给日托中心、游泳学校、夏令营，你知道，尼尔说的生日派对礼品袋。
Whoever is willing to give a daycare center, swim school, summer camps, you know, Neil said birthday party goody bags.
对吧？
You know?
因为你的产品本质上是一种软糖牙膏。
Because what what you have, right, your product essentially is a gummy toothpaste.
但这让我想到，尼尔和我之前私下聊过，杰夫·雷德，他联合创办了沃比·帕克，后来又创立了哈里剃须刀，他们现在收购了一个叫Lumi除臭剂的产品。
But what it makes me think of, Neil and I were talking about this earlier off Mike, Jeff Rader, who who cofounded Warby Parker and and then went on to start Harry's, they have a product that they now bought called Lumi deodorant.
对吧，尼尔？
Right, Neil?
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yep.
Lumi？
Lumi?
没错。
Exactly.
而且我记得Lumi除臭剂是一位医生创立的，那……
And Lumi deodorant, I believe, was started by a doctor, and that was...
它的营销理念就是，医生解决了腋下除臭的问题。
The marketing of it was your doctor has solved, you know, underarm, you you know, deodorant.
如果你把自己的品牌定位成，比如，终于解决了刷牙问题的妈妈，那会怎么样？
What if you thought of your brand as like, you know, like, the mom who finally fixed brushing, something like that?
我很喜欢这个想法。
I love that idea.
而且还可以和牙医、正畸医生、牙髓病医生合作，这样我们就有科学依据了。
And partnering too with dentists and orthodontists, endodontists so that we have that science backing.
因为他们都在用这个产品。
Because they are using it.
他们也很喜欢。
They're liking it.
前几天我收到一位牙髓病医生的短信，他说他以前有严重的牙齿敏感问题。
I got a text from an endodontist the other day that said he has had major sensitivity issues.
他试过各种方法，包括用舒适达，但冷的东西一直让他牙齿难受，现在这个产品终于对他有效了。
Nothing's worked for his teeth with cold and he's used Sensodyne, all the things, and this is finally breaking through for him.
太棒了。
Amazing.
所以我觉得，对，你说得对。
So I think, yeah, you're right.
随着我们和更多这样的权威声音合作，那会是一个很好的开端。
As we partner with more of those authority voices, that would be a great start.
那还有一个问题就是，对家长来说，来自医疗和牙科界的这种可信度有多重要？
And and there the question also is how important is the parents to have that credibility from the medical and dental community?
你知道，比如在Warby Parker，人们通常信任眼镜，你戴上就能看到效果。
You know, for at Warby Parker, for example, people generally trust glasses and you put it on, you can see it works.
但是，如果你要去做眼科检查，对吧，我们现在雇了上百名医生，展示这些医生是全国顶尖的这一点非常重要。
However, if you're going to go and get an eye exam, right, and we now hire hundreds of doctors, it's really important to demonstrate, hey, these doctors are some of the best in the country.
他们资质很高。
They're highly credentialed.
他们用的是顶级设备。
They're using top of the line equipment.
所以，还是取决于人们做决定时的那个优先级，对吧？
So again, depending on in that hierarchy of how people make decisions, right?
不管你是想让美国牙科协会还是其他什么机构来认可，对吧。
Whether you want it blessed by, you know, the American Dental Association or whatever group it is Yeah.
为了增加可信度。
To to give added credibility.
我觉得这可能有点棘手，因为氟化物的问题。
I mean, may be tricky because of the the fluoride issue.
我不是……
I'm not...
但是什么……
But what...
还有另一个……
And another...
我的意思是，在此基础上。
I mean, building on that.
你用的这个成分，我我我不太了解。
This ingredient you're using, and I I I don't know it.
我肯定听说过。
I'm sure I've heard of it.
不是……
Not...
纳米羟基磷灰石。
Nano hydroxyapatite.
纳米羟基磷灰石。
Nano hydroxyapatite.
对。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
也许真的值得在这方面多下功夫。
It may be worth really, you know, leaning into that as well.
你可能已经在做了，但你知道，听起来有很多牙医在用这个替代氟化物。
And you may already be doing that, but, you know, it sounds like there are plenty of dentists who are using this as a replacement for fluoride.
所以在我看来，这些人也是你想联系和合作的对象，给他们提供样品，让他们在诊所里分发。
So it seems to me like those are also the partners you wanna try and reach out to and work with and just offer samples to them and and let them pass them out in their offices.
当然。
Definitely.
我们尤其发现儿科牙医那边，因为他们的父母群体比较年轻。
We especially find with pediatric dentists because their parent population is younger.
大概三十多岁，可能四十出头。
Like in their thirties, maybe low forties.
这些人对氟化物和纳米羟基磷灰石更了解，也知道有替代方案。
Those people are more aware of fluoride and nano hydroxyapatite and realize that there's an alternative.
另一个想法，因为你刚才提到，怎么制造一个热点时刻？
Another idea, because you were saying, how do you build a moment?
我们当时就抓住了日全食的机会，那次日全食会横跨整个美国本土。
And, you know, we took advantage when there was a solar eclipse that was gonna be across the whole Continental U.
对。
S.
所以我们做了很多日食观测眼镜，做成蓝色，Warby Blue，然后发出去几千副。
So we created all these solar eclipse viewers and we made them blue, Warby Blue, and we gave out thousands of them.
比如说，我要是想哪里容易蛀牙，那就是吃糖的时候。
If I think about where do I run the risk of cavities, for example, it's when I eat candy.
那你什么时候吃糖最多呢？
And when do you eat candy the most?
大概就是万圣节前后吧。
Perhaps it's around Halloween.
所以，你看，有没有机会在那个时候切入，制造一个时刻，比如父母担心孩子吃太多糖会兴奋得停不下来，还担心对牙齿不好？
So, you know, is there an opportunity to break through and create a moment when, you know, parents are worried, oh, my kids are going to be bouncing off the wall because they're eating so much candy and is this bad, you know, for their teeth?
那可能就是一个营销的好时机。
You know, that might be a marketing moment.
这里面可能真有文章可做，但我觉得归根结底就是，你什么时候能自然地融入对话中去。
There might be a there there, but I think the the bottom line is just, you know, when can you sort of insert yourself into the conversation?
对。
Yes.
不用急着一下子说服全美国。
Don't really need to convince all of America right away.
你其实只需要让……
You really just need to get...
我觉得你正在做到这一点。
And I think you're doing it.
你需要说服一群家长，然后他们会告诉其他所有家长。
You need to convince one circle of parents who tell every other parent.
想想我们做过的那么多产品。
Think of so many products we've done.
RXBAR 就是一个很好的例子。
RXBAR is a great example.
他们从 CrossFit 爱好者开始，然后就从那里火起来了。
They started with CrossFitters, and it just blew up from there.
我觉得你真的想加倍投入在那些被你的价值主张吸引的人身上，让他们成为你的传播放大器。
I I think you wanna really wanna double down on the people who are attracted to what your value proposition is and let them let them be your force multipliers.
我喜欢这个想法。
I love that idea.
如果能通过已经在使用的人把消息传出去，那就太好了，很多时候我们就是这样发现用户的。
It would just be amazing too if we can, yeah, just get the word out through the people that are already using it, which is a lot of times what we find.
前几天有个大网红发帖提到我们，我就去问她。
There was a big influencer who posted the other day about us, and I asked her.
我说，嘿。
I was like, hey.
你是怎么知道的？
How'd you find out?
她说其实是她一个朋友来她家，把产品带进厨房，跟她说，现在就试试这个。
And she said it was actually from one of her friends that came over to her house, brought it into her kitchen, and said, try this right now.
你的孩子需要这个。
Your kids need this.
所以希望这种情况能一直持续下去。
So hopefully, that'll just keep happening over and over.
太棒了。
Awesome.
金伯·克兰德尔，品牌叫珍珠波普。
Kimber Crandall, the brand is called Pearl Pop.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
非常感谢你打来电话，也谢谢你到旧金山来看我。
Thanks so much for calling, and thanks for coming to see me in San Francisco.
嗯，非常感谢你邀请我，我只希望我们能改变牙膏行业。
Well, thank you so much for having me, and I can just only hope that we're gonna change toothpaste.
就像尼尔，就像你改变眼镜行业一样，我从这个播客中学到的是，如果你不去梦想并为之努力，我们永远不会知道结果。
Like Neil, like you changed eyewear and just something I've learned from this podcast is if you don't dream and go for it, we'll never know.
所以我们会
So we'll
试试看。
just try.
明白。
Know.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
谢谢你的所有建议。
Appreciate all the advice.
好的。
Alright.
很高兴见到你。
So great to meet you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Alright.
我们稍作休息，马上回来，继续接听下一位来电者，再给一轮建议。
We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
我是盖伊·拉兹，你正在收听的是《我是如何打造这个实验室》节目中的建议热线。
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on how I built this lab.
欢迎回到《我是如何打造这个实验室》的建议热线。
Welcome back to the Advice Line on how I built this lab.
我是盖伊·拉兹，今天的嘉宾是沃比·帕克的联合创始人尼尔·布卢门撒尔，我们正在接听你的来电。
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Neil Blumenthal, cofounder of Warby Parker, and we are taking your calls.
尼尔，你准备好接下一个电话了吗？
And, Neil, are you ready for our next call?
准备好了，很期待。
Ready and excited.
好的。
Alright.
让我们接入下一位来电者。
Let's bring in our next caller.
欢迎来到建议热线。
Welcome to the Advice Line.
你现在连线的是沃比·帕克的联合创始人尼尔·布卢门撒尔。
You're on with Neil Blumenthal, cofounder of Warby Parker.
请告诉我们你的名字、你从哪里打来，以及简单介绍一下你的业务。
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line about your business.
嗨，盖伊。
Hi, Guy.
嗨，尼尔。
Hi, Neil.
今天能跟两位传奇人物上节目，真是我的荣幸。
It's an honor to be on the show with you two legends today.
我叫布莱恩·德门塔尔。
My name is Brian Dementhal.
我是盐与光健康公司的首席执行官兼联合创始人。
I'm the CEO and cofounder of Salt and Light Wellness.
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我们在南加州有三家健康中心连锁店，专门做光疗。
We are a three studio chain of wellness centers here in Southern California, and we specialize in light therapies.
太棒了。
Awesome.
欢迎来到节目，布莱恩。
Welcome to the show, Brian.
那你……
So you...
你在南加州洛杉矶附近有三个分店。
I've got three locations in Southern California around LA.
具体在哪儿呢？
Where where are you?
我们夹在洛杉矶下面的橙县和圣地亚哥上面的内陆帝国之间。
We're kind of, like, wedged below LA in Orange County, but above San Diego in the Inland Empire.
好的。
Okay.
我很喜欢这个光疗的概念。
I love the light thing.
我每天早上都会带着狗出去散步，晒晒太阳，你知道的，就是为了让多巴胺水平升上来。
I do my morning light dog walk every morning, you know, make sure to get that dopamine levels up and going.
这真的非常神奇，而且很有效。
And it it is actually really amazing and effective.
好的。
Okay.
所以这些是……
So these are...
这是光疗。
This is a light therapy.
这些不是那种晒黑沙龙。
These are not like suntanning salons.
你进去之后，就……
You go in and you...
什么？
What?
你坐在红灯前面，然后……
You sit in front of red lights and...
再多跟我说说你们是做什么的。
Me a little bit more about what you do.
比如，体验是什么样的？
Like, what's the experience?
现在大家生活节奏快，很难在合适的时间出门，获得足够的红光、红外线和适量的紫外线。
With our modern busy schedules, it's not always feasible for people to get outside at the right times of the day to get their proper doses of red light, infrared light, and a a healthy dose of UV.
所以在Salt and Light，我们让这件事变得简单。
So at Salt and Light, we make that easy.
我们模拟了户外曝晒的完整体验，就像你去海边一样，因为我们还把盐疗和冷水浴跟红外线结合起来，形成对比。
We mimic kind of the full outdoor exposure if you were to go to the beach, say, for example, because we also pair it with salt therapy and cold plunge for contrast with our with our infrared light.
你们有个盐房。
You get a salt room.
你还有冷水浴。
You get the cold plunge.
不错。
Nice.
我刚在旧金山湾做了个冷水浴。
I just did a cold plunge in the San Francisco Bay.
那水冷得要命。
It was so freaking cold.
我都不敢相信自己泡在那水里，不过感觉还行。
I can't believe I was in that water, but it was alright.
那之后你肯定感觉特别爽吧。
So then probably felt great afterwards.
我感觉棒极了。
I felt amazing.
真的，确实……
It it does really...
你知道，它能减轻炎症，降低血糖。
You know, it reduces inflammation, lowers blood sugar.
它全都...
It's all...
这些效果都有。
Does all those things.
好的。
Okay.
布莱恩，跟我说说你是怎么创业的，给我们讲讲大概的故事吧。
Brian, tell me how did you start the business and give us a sort of the basic story here.
我和我妻子，2008年大学毕业后就创立了这家公司。
So my wife and I, we founded it out of college in 2008.
所以尼尔，跟你们刚开始的时候差不多。
So Neil, right there with you when you guys started as well.
我们一直相信阳光的力量。
We we just always believed in sunshine.
我从小就是运动员。
I was I was an athlete growing up.
因为我的运动背景，我们有了团队休息室这个想法。
And because my athletic background, we had this idea of the team room.
一级体育、职业体育，他们训练完之后，有个地方去恢复。
Division one sports, professional sports, after they train, they have a place to go and recover.
我们这里也有一种爱好者的文化，尤其是在南加州。
We're in a hobbyist culture as well, especially here in Southern California.
人们对待自己的爱好，就像大学里的一级运动员一样认真。
And people treat their hobbies every bit as serious as a division one athlete does in college.
而且成年爱好者们其实有钱花在恢复和照顾自己上。
And and adult hobbyists actually have the money to spend on their recovery and take care of themselves.
所以这就是我们真正想融入的市场。
And so that's the market that that we really looked to integrate with.
我觉得这很酷，因为你会想到像拉伸实验室这样的东西，我们之后可以再详细聊聊。
I mean, it's cool because you think of, like, a stretch lab, and we can talk more about that later.
但是，是的，你看，人们戴着那个，呃……
But, yeah, mean, the fact that people wear whoops, there...
就是……
There's...
你知道，就连HOKA的鞋子，也是为那些想像专业运动员一样训练的人设计的。
You know, even HOKA shoes were designed for people who wanted to train like professionals.
跟我聊聊你的生意吧。
Tell me a little bit about the business.
生意怎么样？
How is the business doing?
他们……
Are they...
我是说，你有三家分店。
I mean, you got three locations.
是不是……
Are...
我猜它们应该能持续经营，你们应该是在盈利的。
I'm assuming that they're sustainable, that you're turning a profit.
我们一开始是开红光和紫外线工作室的，但2008年的时候没人知道红光是什么。
We opened as a red light and and UV studio, but nobody knew what red light was in 2008.
我们以前的名字叫Perfect Tan。
Our name used to be Perfect Tan.
我们以前会……
We would we would...
我们知道市场对美黑是了解的。
We knew the market understood tanning.
我们……
We...
但那不是我所相信的。
That wasn't what I believed in.
我们总是会确保指导人们合适的时间。
We we would always make sure to coach people on appropriate times.
我们不是那种随便糊弄人的店。
We didn't run it like, a fake and bake type of establishment.
我觉得长期来看效果不错，但大约三年前我们改名为Salt and Light了。
And I think that bore out results in the long run, but we actually rebranded to Salt and Light about three years ago.
改名为Salt and Light并重新调整营销方向后，我们的业绩比之前提升了大约30%。
Rebranding and refocusing our marketing as the Salt and Light brand gave us a pop of about 30% over our previous operations.
我有点好奇，你可能不方便说具体数字，但大概……
Just out of curiosity, you may not be able to to talk about specifics, but roughly, what...
你知道，就收入而言，给我个范围。
You know, in terms of revenue, give me a range.
一个这样的店大概能赚多少？
What is one of, you know, these locations?
一年能有多少收入？
What can they do a year?
我们最好的一个工作室，一年大概能赚57.5万美元。
One studio, our top performance studio does about $575,000 per year.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Great.
好的。
Okay.
那在我们深入之前，先说说你的问题吧。
So before we dive in further, tell us your question.
我每周大概会收到十几条来自全国各地的咨询，都是想开一家Salt and Light的。
So I get about a dozen inquiries per week from people all around the country who wanna open a Salt and Light.
我想问你们的是，我们该怎么好好筛选这些人，尤其是量这么大的情况下？
My question for you guys is how do we properly vet these people, especially with the volume?
毕竟我们是个小团队，每周十几条对我来说其实挺多的。
I mean, we're a fairly small operation, so a dozen per week is actually a lot for me.
我们怎么才能好好筛选这些人，确保他们认同我们的品牌价值观，并且能实现可持续的扩张呢？
How do we properly vet these people to ensure that we're getting people who align with our brand values and that we can create sustainable scaling?
太棒了。
Awesome.
好问题，而且这个问题完全有办法解决。
Great question and a very solvable one.
尼尔，我想请你来说说。
Neil, I wanna bring you in.
首先，你对布莱恩有什么问题或想法吗？
First of all, questions or thoughts for Brian?
当然。
Sure.
嗯，恭喜你。
Well, congratulations.
我很喜欢这次品牌重塑，它立刻让我联想到健康和养生。
I love the rebrand and it immediately evokes health and wellness for me.
这正是公司的使命所在。
So exactly what the mission of the company is.
我本身并不是特许经营方面的专家，对吧？
I'm not an expert in franchising per se, right?
Warby Parker 所有门店都是自营的，我们有超过300家。
Warby Parker owns and operates all of our own stores, of which we have over 300.
我们招聘门店负责人时，确实会经过非常严格的筛选流程。
We certainly go through quite a vetting process to hire our store leaders.
而且实际上，每一位门店负责人我都会亲自面试，因为我们相信成功的关键在于人和文化。
And I actually still interview every single one because we think that the key to success is people and culture.
如果你看看那些经久不衰的品牌，对吧，归根结底都是人和文化。
And if you look at enduring brands, right, it all comes down to people and culture.
那文化是什么？
And what is culture?
文化就是共同的价值观、共同的仪式，对吧，还有共同的使命。
It's shared values, shared rituals, right, and a shared mission.
所以，我觉得你说得对，选择确实非常重要。
So, I think you're on the right track here in saying like, hey, selecting is really important.
所以，我觉得第一件事就是把公司的主张、使命和价值观公之于众，这样人们就会自己筛选，主动来找你。
So, I think the first thing is putting out into the world what the company stands for, what your mission and your values are, then people are already self selecting, right, and reaching out to you.
那你是不是真的想设置一些门槛？
Then do you actually wanna put some barriers in place?
这样你就能在不投入太多时间的情况下，缩小你愿意合作的人的范围。
So that way you can narrow without investing too much time who you might want to work with.
这可能是一个申请流程。
And that might be an application process.
你知道，这挺有意思的。
You know, it's interesting.
现在，我得说，如果你选择授权或加盟，你的商业模式会有很大的变化。
Now, I would say that if you do license or franchise, your business model changes quite a bit.
你会有新的客户，这些客户就是加盟商。
You now have a new customer, and those customers are the franchisees.
所以，在你决定策略的时候，这是值得考虑的一点。
So it's just something to think about as you decide on your strategy.
什么……
What...
你希望怎么分配你的时间？你是打算为加盟商开发一个产品吗？
How do you wanna be spending your time, and are you gonna build a product for franchisees?
布莱恩，我完全同意尼尔的建议。
Brian, I I couldn't agree more with with Neil's advice.
你知道，我们之前有……
You know, we had a...
我们有一期关于金宝贝的节目，金宝贝当时是往加盟方向发展的。
We have an episode on Gymboree, and Gymboree went into the franchising direction.
那个创始人联系了一位有加盟经验的人，这对业务帮助很大。
Direction, and the founder, she reached out to somebody who had expertise in franchising, which really helped the business.
但那是以后的事了。
But that's down the road.
我的意思是，短期内，就像尼尔说的，你需要设置一些门槛，让工作流程更高效。
I mean, in the in the short term, you know, as Neil said, you wanna build some barriers in just to make your workflow more efficient.
所以如果有咨询进来的话，你基本上可以做一个问卷，大概15到20个问题。
So if if there's inbound, you basically create a questionnaire with, like, 15 to 20 questions.
问问他们的商业经验、可用资金，还有他们在哪里、为什么有动力这些基本信息。
Ask about their business experience, their their available capital, any demographic information on where they are, why they're motivated.
光是这个门槛就能筛掉60%到70%的人，因为很多人根本懒得填。
And that alone, just that barrier to entry is gonna eliminate, like, 60 to 70% of the income because people who are just not gonna bother filling it out.
然后一旦有人填了，你就可以...
And then once somebody fills it out, you could...
你就可以进入下一步，真正跟他们聊一聊。
You can go to the next step and actually have a conversation with them.
其实你真正要找的是，对吧，这些人...
And really what you're looking for is, right, you know, are these people...
他们是不是相信你在做的事情？
Do they believe in what you're doing?
你知道，不仅是要能教得动、是你想合作的人，而且他们是不是真的相信这件事？
You know, not only are they coachable and are they somebody you wanna work with, but do they really believe in this?
因为那些想找被动收入的人，不是你要找的人。
Because people who are looking for a passive income stream, that's not your person here.
你现在还太早。
You're you're still too early.
你已经有三个门店了。
You've got three locations.
头五家加盟店，我们从节目里采访过的加盟企业中学到，它们非常关键。
Those first five franchises, we've learned from all our interviews that we've done with franchise businesses on this show, they're critical.
头五家会决定很多文化基调。
Those first five are gonna define so much of the culture.
它们能提升品牌。
They can elevate the brand.
也能稀释品牌。
They can dilute it.
它们的影响太大了。
They have such a huge impact.
所以你真的要非常非常小心。
So you wanna be really, really careful.
比如说，一旦你找到了感兴趣的人，甚至在按下启动键之前，你要确保他们跟你有一段跟岗期，花时间在前台工作，参加你的会议。
Once you, let's say, land on somebody you're interested, even before you hit the go button, you wanna make sure that they do a shadowing period with you, that they spend time working the front desk, that they sit in on your meetings.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且即便如此，你还要想出一个试...
And and even then, you wanna figure out a try...
某种试用期，因为这是一个巨大的责任。
Some kind of trial basis because it's a huge responsibility.
哇。
Wow.
这...
That's...
听到这些，真是让人耳目一新。
Hearing that's the kinda like a breath of fresh air.
我，我……
I I...
光是您刚才提到的筛选流程和工作流程，就让我觉得……
Just even the sifting and the workflow that you that you suggested there.
您提到了关于人的一些事情……
You said something about people...
确保人们不仅对领导角色和运营角色充满热情，而且对For Neil的品牌方面也充满热情，您有没有……
Ensuring people are passionate, not only about the leadership role and the operator role, but the branding side of For Neil, do you have...
您知道，我知道有些公司……
You know, I know there's companies that have...
它们以面试中问的问题类型而闻名。
You know, they're famous for the types of questions they ask in interviews.
您有没有什么指标，能看出这个人真的理解品牌？
Do you have any kind of indicators of, wow, this person really gets the brand?
有没有什么特定类型的问题您会问，或者您知道某个问题能确保一致性？
Is there a specific type of question you would ask or something that you know that this is the question that ensures there's alignment?
通常不是某一个特定问题，不过我可以举个例子。
Usually, it's not one particular question, although I'll share an example.
有时候我会问，你还记得第一次听说这个品牌是什么时候吗？
Sometimes I'll ask, you know, do you remember when you first heard about the brand?
我们现在已经做了十五年，所以这个问题可能不像五年前或十年前那么有针对性，但它能开启对话，我也能从中判断出他们是不是顾客。
And we're now fifteen years in, so that question is perhaps not as relevant as it was, you know, five or ten years ago, but it starts a conversation and I can start to suss out, are they a customer?
他们是否认同我们的使命？
Do they believe in our mission?
他们自己戴眼镜吗？
You know, are they a glasses wearer?
他们能不能真正理解顾客的感受。
And can, really empathize with customers.
这样做的效果是，它能立刻引发一场对话，让对方开始分享他们对品牌的了解和喜爱。
So, what it does is it immediately invites a conversation where the individual can start to share what they know and what they love about the brand.
坦白说，如果他们了解得不多，那他们怎么可能热爱这个品牌或使命呢，对吧？
And frankly, if they don't know a lot, then how could they possibly love the brand or the mission, right?
他们没做功课，你知道，如果他们连跟公司CEO面试都不做功课，我怎么能放心把整个店面和人员管理交给他们呢？
They didn't do their homework, which, you know, if they didn't do their homework on interview with the CEO of the company, am I gonna trust them with the four walls of a store and managing people?
我是说，你可以……
I mean, you could...
我是说，你问问他们“盐和光”对他们意味着什么。
I mean, you ask them what does Salt and Light mean to you?
这句话对他们来说有什么意义？
What does that phrase mean to you?
跟我讲讲他们自己的……
Tell me about your own...
你知道，光疗是怎么解决他们遇到的困难的。
You know, how light therapy solved challenges that you had.
你知道，你真的要深入了解他们个人的健康旅程，看看他们为什么感兴趣，以及衡量他们的热情。
You know, you really wanna interrogate their own personal wellness journey to see why they're, you know, they're interested and and to gauge their passion.
还有一件事……
The other thing...
我只是好奇。
I'm just curious.
你有没有收到来自...
Are you getting out...
加州以外的人的咨询？
Inbound from people outside of California?
上周，我和...
Last week, I had a...
和一位来自纳什维尔、亚利桑那、北加州的先生通了大约一个小时的电话或视频。
About an hour phone call or video call with a gentleman from Nashville, Arizona, Northern California.
所以是的，这...
So yeah, it's...
我的意思是，北加州显然在加州，但确实，各地都有。
I mean, obviously Northern California is in California, but yes, it's all around.
我觉得有趣的是，这几乎有点反直觉，因为这些地方阳光都很充足。
What's funny to me is it's almost counterintuitive in that these are all places with lots of sun.
我坐在纽约这里，冬天的时候，下午四点半天就黑了。
I'm sitting here in New York and during the winter, it gets dark at 04:30.
比如说，我希望你在我办公室旁边开一家。
Like, I I want you to open up here next to my office.
你知道，我觉得如果你……
You know, I think that if you...
将来，如果你和这些加盟商合作，你可能会想看看Orangetheory或StretchLab是怎么做的，他们先建立了区域密度。
Down the road, if you do work with some of these franchisees, you you might wanna look at what Orangetheory or StretchLab did, which is they built regional density first.
你知道，你可能会想先从……
You you know, you wanna start by maybe build...
在总部开车一两个小时范围内先建五到十个门店，然后再去纳什维尔或达拉斯或其他地方。
Building out five to 10 locations within an hour or two drive from HQ before you go to Nashville or Dallas or somewhere else.
你真的想先测试一下这个模式，并且能够真正掌控局面，因为将来如果这个火起来，你想看看其他加盟品牌是怎么做的。
Like, you really wanna sort of test the model and be able to really have oversight because down the road, if this does catch, you know, fire, you wanna look at what other franchise, brands have done.
比如Five Guys。
Like Five Guys.
你得建一个培训学院，教人们光的科学，当然还有商业模式，怎么招会员，还有那些操作流程、历史、价值观，所有这些。
You're gonna wanna build like an academy where you train people, where they learn about the science of light, and then obviously the business model, and how to get, you know, acquire members, and, you know, the protocols and, you know, the history and then the values, all those things.
你得制定一个非常具体、有纪律的培训计划。
You're gonna have to develop a very specific disciplined program.
那都是以后的事了。
That's gonna come way down the road.
好的。
Okay.
但长远来看……
But long...
在走到那一步之前，你真的得想清楚，先要把业务做得紧凑、集中，然后再考虑跨州，甚至……
Even before you get there, you really wanna think about keeping it really tight and close before you think about going out of state or even in...
进入北加州。
Into Northern California.
而且，地理位置靠近的话，你就能更好地支持各个分店，也能亲自到场，更频繁地走访。
And being within close proximity allows you to provide greater support to the different locations and to physically be there and visit more frequently.
好的，谢谢你的建议。
Yeah, thank you for that.
是的，我们在现有的地点已经看到了这种情况。
Yeah, we have seen that in our existing location.
这三个地点之间有点网络效应，这很好。
There is a bit of a network effect amongst the three, which is great.
而且，是的，我的意思是，我们有……
And, yeah, I mean, we have...
我们就在橙县和圣地亚哥县的隔壁，所以那些可能是……
We're right next door to Orange County and San Diego County, so those probably are...
我很感激你的建议。
I appreciate the advice.
那可能是一个很好的市场进入。
That's probably a good market to move into.
太棒了。
Awesome.
太棒了。
Awesome.
布莱恩·迪米特。
Brian Dimit.
品牌叫“盐与光健康”。
The brand is called Salt and Light Wellness.
祝你好运，兄弟。
Good luck, man.
非常感谢你打来电话。
Thanks so much for calling in.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
有进展随时告诉我们。
Keep us posted.
谢谢。
Thanks.
好的。
Alright.
我们很快再休息一下，但马上就会接听下一位来电者的电话。
We're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
我是盖伊·拉兹，你正在收听的是《如何打造这个实验室》节目中的《建议热线》。
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on how I built this lab.
欢迎回到《如何打造这个实验室》的《建议热线》。
Welcome back to the Advice Line on how I built this lab.
我是盖伊·拉兹。
I'm Guy Raz.
今天，我将接听你们的来电，嘉宾是沃比·帕克的联合创始人尼尔·布卢门撒尔。
And today, I'm taking your calls with Neil Blumenthal, cofounder of Warby Parker.
让我们请出下一位来电者。
And let's bring in our next caller.
你好。
Hello.
嗨，尼尔和盖伊。
Hey, Neil and Guy.
我叫坦纳·麦克雷尼，从田纳西州纳什维尔打来电话。我是牛仔乡村俱乐部的创始人和总裁，这是一个虚构的乡村俱乐部和高尔夫品牌，邀请任何人加入并认领会员资格。
My name is Tanner McCraney calling out of Nashville, Tennessee, and I am the founder and president of the Cowboy Country Club, which is our made up country club and golf brand that invites anyone to join and claim membership to.
我们的会员代表那些能够无缝从乡村过渡到乡村俱乐部的人。
Our members represents those who can seamlessly transition from the country to the country club.
好的。
Okay.
欢迎来到节目，坦纳。
Welcome to the show, Tanner.
等等。
So wait.
这是一个虚构的乡村俱乐部？
It's a it's a made up country club?
你到底是……
What do you...
这到底是什么？
What what is it?
你们是做什么的？
What do you do?
你们卖什么？
What do you what do you sell?
我们的业务其实有两块。
So our business kind of has two sides.
一块是周边商品，另一块是会员。
We've got the merch, and then we've got the membership.
但我们不太说我们有顾客。
But we don't really say that we have customers.
只要买了东西，就是会员。
Everyone who buys something is a member.
所以服装方面，就是你在专业球具店能看到的那些东西。
And so for clothing, it's everything that you'd find at a pro shop.
帽子、半拉链卫衣、连帽衫、背心、T恤、匹克球拍，然后还有会员相关的东西。
Hats, quarter zips, hoodies, vest, t shirt, pickleball paddles, and then we've got the membership stuff.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
所以你们是……
So you act...
作为这个虚拟俱乐部的会员，你能得到什么呢？
And as a member of this virtual club, what do you get?
我们的会员盒子是一个订阅服务，你会得到一个带有你名字和会员号的行李牌。
So our membership box is a subscription where you actually get a bag tag with your name on it and member number.
它其实没什么……
It doesn't actually many...
实际意义。
Mean anything.
就是图个乐子。
It's just for fun.
但你还会得到一个杆头套和高尔夫毛巾。
But you also get a head cover, golf towel.
还有球座，基本上就是一个大礼包，让你的高尔夫球包更酷。
You get tees, basically a swag bag to trick out your golf bag.
好的。
Alright.
牛仔乡村俱乐部，一个虚构的高尔夫俱乐部，你们卖帽子和服饰。
Cowboy Country Club, a made up golf club, and and you sell hats and apparel.
给我讲讲那个……的故事吧。
And tell me the story about the...
比如，怎么……
Like, what...
这一切是怎么开始的？
How did this happen?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
我从小，我父母就是一家高尔夫俱乐部的会员。
So growing up, my parents were members of a golf club.
所以我有一群人可以一起打球、聊高尔夫。
So I had a community to play with and talk about golf with.
后来我上了大学，在那里也有一群很好的球友。
And then I went off to college, had a great community there to play with.
毕业后，我去亚特兰大做了一份金融工作。
Then after graduation, I went and took a finance job in Atlanta.
但在那里，我找不到人一起打球。
And being there, I didn't have anyone to play with.
我感觉自己被这项运动排斥在外，没有归属感。
I felt excluded from the game, nowhere to call home.
于是我想，我可以自己创建一个乡村俱乐部，邀请别人加入，来解决自己被排斥的问题。
And I figured that I could solve my own problem of feeling excluded by creating my own country club and inviting people to join.
这想法挺疯狂的，但我们建立了一个社交媒体粉丝群，我在那里讲述我的故事，并解释为什么我对这件事如此充满热情。
It it was a crazy idea, but we built a social media following where I told my story and talked about why this was something that I was so passionate about.
我们的第一批产品在十二秒内就售罄了。
And our first drop sold out in twelve seconds.
哇。
Wow.
你是怎么……
How did you get...
你一直说“我们”。
So you keep saying we.
难道不止你一个人吗？
Is there more than you?
嗯，我只是把它称为俱乐部，会员们。
Well, I just call it the club, the members.
就是“我们”。
It's we.
是你啊。
It's you.
坦纳就是那个“我们”。
Tanner is the we.
然后……
And...
好。
Okay.
我明白了。
I gotcha.
那你做这个有多久了？
And how long have you been doing this now?
几年了？
How many years?
快三年了。
Almost three years.
那你做什么……
And what do you do...
你现在每年销售额大概是多少？
What are you doing in sales per year right now?
所以今年，如果一切顺利的话，我们应该能达到大约150万。
So this year, if it shakes out how it should, we should be at around 1,500,000.
哇。
Wow.
太厉害了。
That's incredible.
这完全是直接面向消费者的吗？
And this is entirely direct to consumer?
不是。
No.
不完全是。
Not necessarily.
去年我们开始做批发业务，现在在全国大概有一百家零售店。
So last year, we started our wholesale business and we're in around a 100 retail stores nationwide.
那你们是怎么让大家知道有这个品牌的呢？
And how how did you get people to even become aware of this?
我们请了一些很棒的导师，他们建议我们去参加行业展会。
Well, so we took on some really great mentors that talked about us going to trade shows.
我们的第一次展会是在德克萨斯州的达拉斯举办的。
And so our first trade show was in Dallas, Texas.
我们搭了个展位，完全不知道
We set up a booth, had no idea what
要干什么。
we doing.
那个‘我们’是指你一个人，还是你和别人一起？
The we was you or was it you and
所以我其实雇了我高中时的最好的朋友来接管我们的批发部门。
So I actually hired my best friend from high school to take over our wholesale department.
但他和我去了德州，搭了个展位，结果拉到了30家零售商，就这样一路滚雪球发展到了今天。
But him and I went to Texas and set up a booth and we're able to get 30 retailers, and that just snowballed into where we're at today.
哇。
Wow.
那……
And so...
然后……
And...
好。
Okay.
所以你……
So you...
太厉害了。
That's amazing.
你从零开始创立了这个品牌，而且已经……
You created this brand out of nothing, and you've already...
你一年能卖到一百五十万到两百万。
You're doing 1.5 to 2,000,000 sales a year.
在我们深入聊之前，你有什么问题想问我们？
Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?
我注意到自己有一个问题，就是不太会放权。
One thing that I've noticed about myself personally is I struggle to delegate.
所以我想问你们的是，在扩大规模的时候，你们是怎么放下日常的核心职责，去建立一个可扩展的团队和品牌的？
And so my question to you guys is, in looking to scale, how do you let go of the day to day core responsibilities in order to build a scalable team and a scalable brand?
明白了。
Got it.
好。
Okay.
尼尔·布卢门撒尔，我想请你来说说。
Neil Blumenthal, I want to bring you in.
牛仔乡村俱乐部。
Cowboy Country Club.
恭喜你到目前为止取得的成功。
Congratulations on all the success to to date.
关于你问的怎么授权的问题，
And to your question about, like, how do you delegate?
我一直觉得授权很难，对吧，尤其是当你自己创业，真的希望事情做得对、达到很高的标准。
What I've always found that delegation is hard, right, especially when you're building a business yourself and you really want things to be done right and up to a very high standard.
有时候你在做自己从来没学过的事情。
And sometimes you're doing things that you've never learned how to do.
所以，雇一个人来做你自己都不会做的事情，这很难。
So then it's hard to hire somebody to do something that you don't know how to do.
你怎么去评估一个人能不能胜任呢？
How do you even evaluate somebody for that?
我早期会做的是，见很多其他创业者，或者类似行业的人，来更好地了解公司有哪些部门，以及人们担任哪些不同的角色。
And what I would do early on is meet with a lot of other entrepreneurs, or just people in sort of similar industries to better understand what the different departments a company has and what the different roles folks had.
比如像“买手”这样的角色，在不同公司可能含义不同。
So a role like a merchant, and that could mean different things at different companies.
所以如果你跟三家公司聊，可能会听到三种不同的商品管理做法。
So if you speak to three different companies, you might have three different versions of merchandising.
但归根结底，商品经理就是定产品策略的，对吧？
But at the end of the day, right, merchants are setting the product strategy, right?
他们决定整个产品系列。
They're determining the collection.
我发现，我对各个岗位理解得越深，对组织结构越熟悉，就越容易放手一些职责，因为我对要做的工作更有把握了。
And I found that the better that I understood individual roles and the more comfortable that I came to like an organizational structure, then that made it easier to let go of certain roles and responsibilities because I grew more comfortable with the work that needed to be done.
这样一来，写职位描述、评估人选、招人来做这些工作就更容易了。
So that made it easier to write a position description, to evaluate somebody and hire somebody to do that work.
你说得太对了，我好像一直陷在业务里，而不是在业务之上。
And you're right on the money there because it seems like I'm so stuck working in the business rather than on the business.
所以你说得完全对，把这些职责分出去、招人来接手，正是我需要做的。
And so you're absolutely right that taking those roles and looking out to hires is the right place I need to be
我是说，你确实……
I mean, you are...
好的。
Alright.
你想做的事情是……
The thing you wanna...
听起来你想做的是建立文化、社区，还有……
Sounds like what you wanna do is you wanna build the culture, the community, and the...
还有需求。
And demand.
而且，而且，而且，尼尔，这可能是……
And and and, Neil, this is probably...
我是说，我对你的……很好奇。
I mean, I'm curious about your your...
你和合伙人一起创业，每个人都有不同的技能。
You started your business with partners and everybody had different skill sets.
看起来，坦纳，你的情况可能是想找一个负责产品和运营的人。
It seems like maybe, in your case, Tanner, you wanna look for, like, a like, a a product and operations person.
对，这真的很重要。
Like, that's real...
不一定非得是设计师或者……
Not necessarily a designer or...
但得是那种，比如说，在服装行业有五年经验的人。
But somebody who has, let's say, five years of experience in apparel.
就是那种现在在比你高两三个级别的公司里做中层的人。
Like, somebody who's now sort of mid level working at a business that's like, let's say, two to three rungs above yours.
因为……
Be...
因为那……
Because that's...
你只需要一个在服装行业有经验的人，能处理运营和产品，能跟工厂搞好关系，能算清楚利润、搞定供应链和预测这些事。
You just want somebody with some experience in apparel who can handle operations and product and who can develop relations with the factories and figure out the margins and the supply chain stuff and forecasting.
所以听起来你现在主要忙的就是这个。
So it sounds like that's what is keeping you sort of occupied right now.
是的。
Yep.
我们有时候招人困难，是因为想招那些来自大公司的人，因为他们在体系完善、流程齐全的环境里可能如鱼得水，但你现在处于成长阶段，真的得自己写员工手册。
Where we've had trouble hiring at times is when we try and hire somebody that comes from a much larger company because they might thrive in an existing environment where systems are fully built out and processes are fully established, whereas you're in a growth stage now and you literally have to write the HR manual.
你得自己摸索流程。
You have to figure out the flow.
我们什么都没有。
We have nothing.
你得自己定价格。
You have to be coming up with pricing.
你得真的跟仓库沟通，想办法把系统和仓库对接起来。
You have to, literally be talking with the warehouse and figuring out how to connect your systems with the warehouse.
所以你真的需要那种有创业精神的人。
So you really need entrepreneurial folks.
你最初招的十个人必须非常有创业精神，善于解决问题，而这样的人往往在小公司里。
Your first 10 hires have to be really entrepreneurial and problem solvers, and those folks tend to be at smaller organizations.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我觉得我们需要把业务拆分开来看。
I think that we need to kind of break down the business.
哪些角色是我最擅长的，或者我想成为专家的？
What roles am I the best at or want to be an expert in?
然后就像你说的，去找那些能进来发挥作用的人。
And then look for those people like you were saying that could come in and make a difference.
我们明年最大的目标之一就是把履约和仓储收回来自己做，因为基本上从创业开始我们一直在用第三方物流。
And one of our biggest goals for the next year is to bring fulfillment and warehousing in house because we've been using a 3PL since we've started essentially.
我觉得让整个团队在同一个地方办公，是建立文化的好办法，然后吸引人加入进来。
I think getting our entire team in one location would be a great way to kind of build a culture and then bring people into that.
团队在同一个地方确实是文化的关键。
Having people in one location definitely is key to culture.
你也看到了，比如疫情期间表现最好的那些公司，都是在疫情之前就通过强大的文化和牢固的关系积累了信誉。
And you saw that the companies that seem to function best during the pandemic, for example, had earned all the goodwill from a strong culture and strong relationships before the pandemic.
这样一来，即使大家远程办公，也能充分利用已经建立起来的文化。
So that way, people did go to work remote, they were able to sort of leverage a lot of that culture that had already been built.
有一件事我想让你好好想想，就是哪些事情是你想成为专家的、应该自己做的，哪些事情可能比较普通，可以外包出去？
One thing that I would just think about long and hard is what are the things that you want to be expert in and that you should do yourselves versus what are things that might be a commodity and can be outsourced?
你知道，你的品牌、产品设计，这些对你们来说是最核心的，也是最独特的。
And you know, your brand, the design of your products, right, that is core to you guys and that's unique.
把帽子或T恤装进盒子里寄给客户，这种事可能就不一定要自己做了，因为有很多专家能做，而且他们可能有规模效应，甚至比你自己做还要便宜。
Packing a hat or a shirt into a box and shipping that to a customer, that might not be something that you want to do in house, because there's lots of experts that can do that, and they may have economies of scale and could even do it cheaper than you could do it your...
自己做。
Yourself.
尼尔，我快速问一个问题。
Neil, just a quick question.
我的意思是，在这个阶段，有没有可能他可以考虑聘请一个兼职的运营主管？
I mean, is there a world where at this level, maybe he even thinks about, like, a fractional head of ops?
我的意思是，这...
I mean, there...
你知道，他现在规模还小。
You know, he's still small.
我是说，一百五十万到两百万美元的收入确实不错，但也许现在找个自由职业者来帮忙更合适，你觉得呢？
I mean, the $1.1.5 to 2,000,000 is great, but it it may, you know, it may make sense to tap into like a freelancer at this point or what do you think?
我觉得这是个好主意，尤其是如果你能明确具体的项目，那非常适合外包，找个人来干一段时间。
I I think that's a great idea and, you know, especially if you can define specific projects that works really well for contract work and getting somebody to come on for a period of time.
他们见过类似的情况，所以会有一些经验。
They have some pattern recognition because they've seen this before.
不是所有事情都需要长期固定。
And not everything needs to be permanent.
也不是每段合作关系都要维持十年。
Not every relationship, right, needs to extend for a decade.
你知道，我经常跟Warby的团队说，这趟列车要走很长的路，人们会在不同的站点上车，也会在不同的站点下车。
You know, what I often tell our team at Warby is this train is going for a very long journey, and people get on at different points in the journey, and they get off at different points in the journey.
这完全没问题。
And that's completely okay.
我们可以和这些人保持联系，希望他们在Warby的时光里能蓬勃发展、学到东西、不断成长。
And we can stay close with those folks, and we hope that their time at Warby, they're thriving, they're learning, they're they're growing.
但你知道，人会离开，企业的需求也会随时间变化。
But, you know, people leave and the needs of the businesses change over time.
这是我纠结的地方，我想找一个完美的人长期合作，但知道，就像你说的，这需要培训，这确实是个不错的视角。
That's something I struggle with is I want to find the perfect person for permanent and knowing that, you know, it's it's it's trained, like you said, is is a is a good perspective.
我还想说，你得问那个人一些基本问题。
The the other thing I would say is that you wanna ask that person, you know, some basic questions.
比如，什么……
Like, what do...
牛仔乡村俱乐部卖什么？
What does Cowboy Country Club sell?
如果他们说，你们卖帽子和衬衫，那就不合适。
And if they say, well, you sell hats and shirts and, you know, and that's not the right fit.
你需要的是那种明白你卖的是身份认同的人。
You want somebody who understands that you're selling an identity.
你属于这个俱乐部。
You're belonging to this club.
这有点半开玩笑、眨眨眼的意思，但背后有更深的东西。
It's sort of a tongue in cheek, wink and an odd thing, but it's something deeper.
你在打造一个品牌。
You're building a brand.
你不只是
You're not
一个生活方式品牌。
just A lifestyle brand.
生活方式品牌。
Lifestyle brand.
而这就是你想要冒险一试的人。
And and that's the person that you want to take a chance on.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
真的很感谢。
I really appreciate it.
都是很好的建议。
All great advice.
太好了。
Awesome.
品牌叫牛仔乡村俱乐部，Tanner McCraney。
Well, brand is called Cowboy Country Club, Tanner McCraney.
感谢来电。
Thanks for calling in.
祝你好运，兄弟。
Good luck, man.
谢谢来电。
Thanks for calling.
谢谢你们。
Thank you, guys.
哇。
Wow.
超级超级酷。
Super super cool.
尼尔，在你走之前，我想问你一个问题，这个问题我问过每一位来我节目的嘉宾，就是：以你现在的经验，如果能回到过去，你会对十五年前的自己说什么？
Neil, before I let you go, I wanna ask you a question I've been asking everyone who who joins me on the show, which is knowing what you know now, if you could go back and say, hey.
比如，'我知道这些，这是我要给你的建议'。
Here's here's what I know, and here's some advice I'm gonna give you, Neil, fifteen years ago.
有没有什么建议是当时对你有帮助的？
Is there something that would have been helpful?
我觉得是继续和那些比你领先几步的人建立关系，因为那通常是我们获得最实用建议的途径，这些建议来自那些比我们早几年创业的创始人，他们能分享失败的经验教训。
I think it was continue to build relationships with folks that were a couple steps ahead of you because that's where we tended to get the most sort of actionable advice from, from founders who were, you know, a few years in front of us and could share lessons of failures.
比如说，和Bonobos的创始人聊天，他们也在打造品牌、筹集风险投资，他们给了我们很多建议，非常有帮助。
You know, speaking with the founders of Bonobos, for example, who were also building a brand and raising venture capital, and they had given us tons of advice, which was super helpful.
还有和那些在风投行业工作过的朋友交流，因为当时一家非纯科技公司筹集资金的情况并不常见。
Speaking to friends that had worked in venture, because it was also unusual that not a pure tech company was raising capital.
所以我们得学会风险投资的语言，才能为这个科技驱动的品牌筹到钱。
So we had to learn the language of venture capital to raise money for a tech enabled brand.
你知道，我们之前谁都没做过电商。
You know, none of us had run an ecommerce business before.
所以就去跟那些做过电商的人聊。
So speaking to folks that had run ecommerce businesses.
所以我真希望那时候就有这个播客，那样我们的日子会好过很多。
So I wish that this podcast was available back then, because it would have made our lives a lot easier.
嗯，这就是为什么我们现在请你们来帮大家。
Well, that's why we call you guys to help the people now.
尼尔，非常感谢你再次来到我们的节目。
Thank you so much for, coming back on the show, Neil.
很高兴你能再次回来，希望以后还能请你再来。
It's great great having you back, and and, hopefully, we'll have you back again again.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thank you for having me.
这位是Neil Blumenthal，Warby Parker的联合创始人兼联合CEO。
It's Neil Blumenthal, cofounder and co CEO of Warby Parker.
顺便说一句，如果你还没听过Warby Parker那期节目，回去听听吧。
And by the way, if you haven't heard the Warby Parker episode, go back and check it out.
故事特别精彩。
Incredible story.
特别好。
So good.
这里有一段
Here's one of
那期节目里我最喜欢的片段。
my favorite moments from that episode.
我们当时没告诉任何人网站已经上线了。
We hadn't told anyone that the site was live.
我们不想给网站引流，因为不确定能不能行。
We didn't wanna drive any traffic to it because we weren't sure it would work.
所以我收到一个订单，然后十分钟后，我们又收到一个订单，接着又一个订单，再来一个订单。
So I get an order, and then ten minutes later, we get another order, and then another order, and then another order.
我们一下子从兴奋的感觉变成了，哎呀，糟糕。
And we kind of go from this feeling of elatement to, oh, crap.
我们没有这么多库存。
We we don't have this much inventory.
嘿。
Hey.
非常感谢大家这周收听我们的节目。
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
另外，请务必查看我的通讯。
And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.
你可以在guyraz.com或Substack上免费订阅。
You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack.
当然，如果你正在创业，并且想上我们的节目，请给我们发一条一分钟的语音消息，简单介绍一下你的业务，以及你目前面临的问题或疑问，因为我们很乐意尝试帮你解决。
And, of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them.
你可以把语音留言发到 hibt@id.Wondery.com，或者拨打 1804331298。
You can send us a voice memo at hibt@id.Wondery.com or call us at 1804331298.
在那里留言，记得告诉我们怎么联系你，我们也会把这些信息都放在播客简介里。
Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.
本期节目由 Sam Paulson 制作，音乐由 Ramtin Arablouei 创作。
This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.
编辑是 John Isabella，音频工程师是 Cena Loffredo。
It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.
我们的制作团队还包括 Alex Chung、Elaine Coates、Niva Grant、Casey Herman、JC Howard、Chris Massini、Catherine Cipher、Carrie Thompson 和 Ramel Wood。
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Niva Grant, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Chris Massini, Catherine Cipher, Carrie Thompson, and Ramel Wood.
我是 Guy Raz，你收听的是《How I Built This Lab》的 Advice Line 节目。
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on how I built this lab.
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