与Boll & Branch的Scott Tannen和Ring的Jamie Siminoff的对谈（2025）

这个品牌叫Q，取自Quinn。

The brand is called Q for Quinn.

对了，我还没问你呢。

By the way, I didn't ask you.

Quinn是谁？

Who's Quinn?

Quinn是我儿子的中间名。

So Quinn is my son's middle name.

他

He

是以我祖母Queenie的名字命名的，她在我儿子出生前突然去世了，所以这个名字很特别。

was named after my grandmother Queenie who passed away suddenly just before he was born, so it's a special name.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我很喜欢。

I love it.

Q代表Quinn。

Q for Quinn.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

感谢你打来电话。

Thanks for calling in.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我不知道你们有没有四处看看，但我……

I don't know if you guys I don't know if you guys have looked around, but but I...

我开始穿那些，比如，你知道的，我穿Viore、Lululemon和Aloe的。

I've gotten into, like, I wear, you know, I wear the Viore's and Lululemon's and Aloe's.

我都穿，我当然是Nike的。

I wear them all I'm Nike, obviously.

但是我真的……

But I do...

我越来越倾向于找那种纯天然的东西。

Increasingly, I'm looking for, like, all natural stuff.

我完全同意你的看法。

I totally agree with you.

我觉得市场上有个很大的空白。

I think there's a big hole in the market.

所以我所有的直觉都在说，对，就去做吧，直接去做。

And and so every instinct I had said, yeah, just go just go for it.

但是，你知道，我担心如果她做得太快，那个愿景里会发生什么。

But, you know, I worry about what's gonna happen in that vision if she if she does too fast.

而且现在还很早。

And it's early.

确实还早。

Is early.

非常早。

Very.

好吧。

Alright.

嗯，我说的是天然。

Well, I say natural.

我是说，我喜欢天然纤维。

I say, like, I'm into natural fibers.

而我呢，刚把真草换成了假草。

Me who just replaced my my grass with fake grass.

所以你看吧。

So there you go.

这大概是我听过的最加州的事了。

That's the most California thing I think I've ever heard.

在新泽西这边，我们可不会这么干。

Out here in New Jersey, we don't do that.

你需要的所有水都能得到。

You get all the water you need.

你不需要这样做。

You don't have to.

我们稍作休息，但回来后，会有另一位来电者，另一个问题，以及另一轮建议。

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice.

我是盖伊·拉兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

别走开。

Stick around.

你正在收听《How I Built This Lab》的建议热线。

You're listening to the advice line on How I Built This Lab.

我们得到了引擎的支持。

We get support from engine.

很多创始人从产品或想法开始，但到了某个阶段，生意就变成了别的东西。

A lot of founders start with a product or an idea, but at some point, the business becomes something else.

想想布莱恩·斯库达莫尔。

Think about Brian Scudamore.

他创办了1-800-GOT-JUNK，起初只有一辆卡车和一个愿景，想把垃圾清运做成一个真正的品牌。

He started one eight hundred God Junk with one truck and a vision to make junk removal a real brand.

这成功了，后来发展成了遍布多个城市的数百个团队。

That worked, and then it became hundreds of crews across multiple cities.

每天都有卡车在路上，路线随时变化，团队必须在客户打电话之前就到位。

Trucks on the road every day, routes changing by the hour, and a team that had to be in the right place before the customer even called.

还有贝丽尔·斯塔福德，她在自家厨房烤燕麦棒，创办了Bobo's。

Or Beryl Stafford who started Bobo's by baking oat bars in her kitchen.

转眼间，她就飞往零售会议，在展会上做演示，管理全国各地的分销商，把一个原本的家庭食谱经营成了全国性的食品品牌。

Next thing she knows, she's flying to retail meetings, demoing at trade shows, managing distributors coast to coast, running a national food brand out of what used to be a family recipe.

还有汤姆·黑尔，他围绕“积极旅行可以成为高端体验”这一理念打造了Backroads。

Or Tom Hale who built back roads around the idea that active travel could be a premium experience.

这意味着在六个国家有导游，装备运输，客人后勤，成千上万的环节都必须在一趟旅程开始前全部到位。

That means guides in six countries, gear shipments, guest logistics, thousands of moving pieces that all have to land before a single trip begins.

不同的生意，同样的道理。

Different businesses, same truth.

我跟几百位创始人聊过之后，发现了这一点。

Here's what I've noticed after talking to hundreds of founders.

难的地方往往不是那个大创意。

The hard part is rarely the big idea.

而是创意奏效之后的事情。

It's what happens when the idea works.

突然间，你有了人在路上，还有随之而来的所有物流和后勤。

Suddenly, you've got people on the move and all the logistics logistics that come with it.

那才是真正的考验。

That's the real test.

所以我觉得Engine值得了解一下。

And that's why I think Engine is worth knowing about.

Engine是全国增长最快的现代旅行和支出管理平台，专为中小型企业打造。

Engine is the fastest growing modern travel and spend platform in the country built for small and medium sized businesses.

普通商务旅客在传统平台上预订一次行程平均要花四十五分钟。

The average business traveler spends forty five minutes booking a single trip on a legacy platform.

而使用Engine，这个时间可以缩短到两分半钟。

With engine, that drops to as little as two and a half minutes.

去年，Engine的客户在旅行上节省了3.18亿美元。

Last year, engine customers saved $318,000,000 on travel.

酒店预订平均节省26%。

Average savings of 26% on hotel bookings.

没有合同，没有预订费。

No contracts, no booking fees.

每个月有超过一千家企业加入Engine。

More than a thousand businesses join Engine every month.

加入他们，你的企业在engine.com/built注册并开始旅行，就能获得500美元。

Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/built.

欢迎回到《How I Built This Lab》的《建议热线》。

Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

我是盖伊·拉兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

今天，我接听你们的来电，嘉宾是Ring的创始人杰米·西米诺夫，以及Boll and Branch的联合创始人斯科特·坦南。

And today, I'm taking your calls with Jamie Siminoff, the founder of Ring, and Scott Tannen, cofounder of Boll and Branch.

我们准备好接听下一个电话了。

And, we are ready to take the next call.

开始吧。

Let's go.

开始吧。

Let's go.

好的。

Alright.

欢迎来到《建议热线》。

Welcome to The Advice Line.

你现在连线的是斯科特·坦南和杰米·西米诺夫。

You are on with Scott Tannen, Jamie Siminoff.

告诉我们你的名字、你从哪里打来，以及简单介绍一下你的业务。

Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

嗨，Guy。

Hi, Guy.

嗨，Scott。

Hi, Scott.

嗨，Jamie。

Hi, Jamie.

我叫Eric Alexson。

My name is Eric Alexson.

我是L Cubed Lifestyle的总裁，也是三位联合创始人之一，我们的理念是欢笑、学习和长寿。

I'm the president and one of three cofounders of L Cubed Lifestyle, where the ethos is laugh, learn, and longevity.

我们是一个总部位于佛罗里达的UV生活方式品牌，围绕一个简单的目标而建立，那就是成为人们享受生活的品牌。

We're a Florida based UV lifestyle brand built around one simple goal, to be the brand people play life in.

我们的面料优势在于100%聚酰胺，提供舒适、性能以及真正的UV防护。

Our edges in the fabric, 100% polyamide for comfort, performance, and true UV protection.

太棒了。

Awesome.

感谢来电。

Thanks for calling in.

现在，如果我们谈天然材料，那当然好，但真正重要的是这个。

Now now we're gonna be talking about this material if we're talking about natural materials, but this is really where it's at.

我们说的是运动服装。

We're talking about performance wear.

你们在做这个，而且……

You guys are making it, and and the...

就是……

It's...

如果我理解错了，请纠正我，Eric。

Correct me if I'm wrong, Eric.

你们专注的是防紫外线、运动休闲服，还是能防晒的运动服装？

What you guys are focused on is UV protection, athleisure wear, or sports clothing that protects you from the sun?

因为……

For...

理想情况下，从头到脚，我们一开始做了T恤、长袖衫、卫衣和帽子，现在正在联系几家制造商，准备推出短裤、紧身裤和裙子，这样我们的顾客就能靠衣物来防护，而不是靠防晒霜和化学品，从头到脚都保护到。

Ideally, head to toe, we've started with T shirts, long sleeve shirts, hoodies, and hats, and we're currently looking to a couple manufacturers to bring in shorts, leggings, and skirts so our customers can be protected mechanically instead of with sunscreen and chemicals from head to toe.

这很有意思，因为很多人，包括我自己在内，都会担心，你知道，涂上……

And this is interesting because a lot of people, I myself included in in this group, are worried about, you know, putting on...

是的。

I do.

我会用。

I use it.

我用防晒霜。

I use sunscreen.

我用防晒霜。

I use sunblock.

但有时候我会想，这会不会渗进我的皮肤里？

But sometimes I'm like, is this getting into my skin?

我已经改用矿物防晒霜了。

And I've changed to mineral sunscreen.

而且……

And...

但如果你身上有东西保护你，就不用涂防晒霜了。

But if you have something on your body that is protecting you, you don't have to put sunblock on.

实际上，我们得到了佛罗里达一位莫氏外科医生和认证皮肤科医生的支持，她还在其他播客上和我们一起宣传，总是优先推荐物理防晒而不是化学防晒。

And we actually are backed by a Mohs surgeon and a certified dermatologist here in Florida, where she's gone on podcasts with us on other podcasts backing mechanical sun protection over the chemicals is always the first

选择。

choice.

物理防晒就是穿衣服。

Mechanical meaning clothing.

或者用布料遮住皮肤。

Or Covering your skin.

通过织物来防晒。

Through the fabric.

然后呢……

And then...

好的。

Alright.

那跟我说说你们是怎么开始做这个生意的吧。

So tell me a little bit about how you guys started this business.

我本身是打网球的。

So I'm a racket sports person background.

我在佛罗里达长大，是竞技网球选手，打过大学联赛，也打过差不多三级棒球水平的职业队网球，在欧洲打过职业队，但我一直主动找机会在室内教网球。

I grew up in Florida as a competitive tennis player, played college, played kinda division triple a baseball level professional team tennis in Europe, but I actively sought out opportunities to teach tennis indoor.

因为我爸妈是挪威裔，我的皮肤类型不适合全职在户外教网球。

Because mom and dad are Norwegian heritage, I have the wrong skin type to teach tennis full time outside.

我有个难得的机会，跟另一家公司合作做100%聚酰胺的产品，那家公司后来倒闭了，我的两个联合创始人给了我一个我无法拒绝的提议。

Had a rare opportunity to work with the 100% polyamide with another company that ended up going under, and my two cofounders made me an offer that I couldn't turn down.

所以我们是在白手起家。

So we're bootstrapping.

我们是内部资金支持的，现在正同时尝试进入好几个市场。

We're funded internally, and we're trying to get into several markets at the same time.

那你们是通过网站销售的吗？

And and you guys are selling through your website?

网站和最近在亚马逊上推出的零售渠道都有，这也正好引出了我想问你的问题。

Both the website and we most recently have launched on Amazon for the retail aspect, which leads me to my question to you.

我们还提供批发和联合品牌选项，针对匹克球锦标赛、半程马拉松、冲浪公司、桨板、网球等。

We're also offering wholesale and co branded options for pickleball tournaments, for half marathons, surfing companies, paddle boarding, tennis.

同时扩展零售和批发联合品牌这两块，你觉得明智吗？还是你会建议先专注其中一个？能说说原因吗？

Is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm and the wholesale co co branded arm at the same time, or would you recommend focusing on one of them and maybe why?

有意思。

Interesting.

好的。

Okay.

联合品牌或批发零售，咱们把这些人请进来吧。

Cobranded or wholesale retail, let's let's bring these guys in.

斯科特·坦南，你有什么想法或问题要先问埃里克吗？

Scott Tannen, any thoughts or questions first for Eric?

我的第一个问题是，你们的利润率怎么样？

I mean, my first question is, how are your margins?

是的，我们目前是在巴西生产的。

So, yeah, we're currently manufactured out of Brazil.

最近有关税，我们正在考虑其他生产选择。

So recent tariffs, we're looking into some other manufacturing options.

利润率很紧，尤其是在联合品牌生产方面。

They're pretty tight and even more so on the cobranded manufacturing side.

因为我觉得利润率在这里会非常重要。

Because I I think margins are gonna be really important here.

我这么说是因为教育很关键。

And and and I say that because education is critical.

你得教育客户，让他们明白为什么……

You've got to educate the customer on why...

我平时穿着衣服在外面活动，也没指望它们会被晒伤。

I mean, I go outside in clothing all the time, and I don't expect them getting sunburned.

所以你会……

So you're gonna...

教育会吃掉利润。

Education eats margins.

这是明摆着的事。

That is like as clear as day.

教育会吃掉利润。

Education eats margins.

而且当你第一个做这件事的时候，你必须承担建立品牌的成本。

And when you're the first one to do it, you've gotta bear the cost of that in terms of building a brand.

所以我觉得，要保护利润，然后努力让顾客明白，当我在户外活动时，最好的防晒方式就是穿这种衣服。

And so I I just think, like, protect those margins and then get after trying to unlock with the customer the fact that the best way for me to protect against the sun is this apparel when I'm when I'm active in those sorts of things.

这并不容易做到。

It's not easy to do.

真的非常难做到。

Really, really hard to do.

但我觉得这就是你面前的挑战。

But I think that's the challenge in front of you.

所以我们可以像之前说的，从皮肤科医生和莫氏手术医生那里获得更多背书。

So we could get some more endorsements, like I said before, from, you know, dermatologists and Mohs surgeon.

回答你的问题，一件棉衬衫或者像TJ Maxx那种聚酰胺或混纺的，默认的UPF值大概在18到22之间。

And to answer your question, a cotton shirt or a TJ Maxx, like a polyamide or a dual blend has a default UPF factor of, like, 18 to 22.

而我们的产品是经过认证的UV 50，所以是两倍多。

And so ours is certified UV 50, so it's over double.

目前我的网站或亚马逊店铺上还没有这个信息，但我明白你说的教育部分。

I don't currently have that on the website or on the Amazon storefront, but I can hear you with the education component.

也许这是我们确实需要补充的内容。

Maybe that's something that we need to add.

你面对的问题，我见过很多公司都这样做过……

The the problem you're looking at, and I've seen a lot of companies do this sort of...

这就像一个恶性循环，你的……

It's like a vicious cycle, is your...

如果你能和每个客户坐下来，像我这样解释清楚，我就会买你的产品。

If you could sit down with every customer and explain it like this to me, I would buy your product.

问题是这样做的成本太高了。

The problem is the cost to do that is so high.

所以有很多很棒的产品因为太难解释而破产、倒闭，没能成功。

And so there's a million great products that have gone bankrupt and gone out of business and not made it because it's too hard to explain.

比如，Scott做的床单只是好一点。

Like, Scott made sheets that were a little better.

我不是贬低它，但，但，这……

You know, I'm not diminishing it, but, like, but, like, it's...

就像是有机棉床单。

It was like organic cotton sheets.

就像……

It was like...

你懂吗？

You know?

所以，我知道床单是什么。

So so I knew what sheets were.

我知道它们是干什么用的。

I know what they did.

我知道怎么用。

I knew how to use them.

我对它了如指掌。

I knew everything about it.

我，我……

I I...

Ring，我们做了一个带Wi-Fi摄像头的门铃。

Ring, we did a Wi Fi video camera in a doorbell.

每个人都明白门铃是什么，应该装在哪里，以及……

Everyone understood what a doorbell was, where it was supposed to be, what...

比如说，它做什么，怎么运作。

Like, what it did, how it worked.

我只是把它做成你手机上的一个视频摄像头。

I just made it on your phone with a video camera.

所以，人们对门铃的已有认知，让我省下了几十亿美元的营销费用，还获得了上百年的知识积累。

So the pre awareness of the doorbell gave me billions of dollars of marketing and a hundred years of knowledge.

所以，当然。

And so Sure.

对你来说，我坐在这里思考这个问题。

For you, I'm sitting here thinking about it.

就像，我之前没意识到有这个问题。

It's like, I didn't realize there was this problem.

我甚至没意识到，比如，我就直接穿件衬衫。

I didn't even realize, like, I would just put on a shirt.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我当时在想，关于预先认知，我就想，你知道吗？

And I was thinking about, like, the pre awareness, I'm like, you know what?

我会……

I'd...

我会怎么卖这个？

How I'd be selling this?

我会把衬衫装进防晒霜瓶子里，然后在卖防晒霜的地方卖。

I'd be making sunscreen bottles with the shirt inside of it and selling it where sunscreen is.

哦，我喜欢这个主意。

Oh, I love that.

对，把它装进防晒霜瓶子里。

Like, pack it into the sunscreen bottle.

然后在防晒霜的货架上卖。

And sell it in the sunscreen aisle.

哦，这挺有意思的。

Oh, that's interesting.

整个东西50 SPF什么的，放在防晒霜货架上。

The whole thing 50 SPF whatever in the sunscreen aisle.

装在瓶子里。

In the bottle.

我就直接放那儿。

I'd go right in there.

我会……

I'd be...

这就是我会做的。

That's what I'd do.

因为你不想要那种预先的认知。

Because you don't want that preawareness.

因为如果它在防晒霜货架上，我就会想，我现在明白这件衬衫是干什么的了，因为我在防晒霜货架前。

Because if it's in the sunscreen aisle, I'd be like, I understand what this shirt does now because I'm in the sunscreen aisle.

如果我已经帮你想明白了呢。

What if figured it out for you.

你怎么掉

How do you drop

这些麦克风，老兄？

one of these mics, Guy?

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

掉吧，宝贝。

Drop it, baby.

因为他基本上是在和防晒霜、防晒乳竞争。

Because he's competing with with sunscreen and sunblock, essentially.

这不是衣服。

It's not it's not clothing.

这不是，这不是

It's not It's not

衣服。

clothing.

不是。

No.

我喜欢这个。

I like it.

我们其实不是在跟其他面料或可穿戴设备竞争。

We're not really competing against other fabrics or other wearables.

我们真正竞争的是防晒霜，所以这很棒。

We're actually competing against sunscreen, so that's brilliant.

但另一个因素，也是我们在竞争激烈的运动休闲服市场中脱颖而出的方式，就是大多数公司是在生产后用化学物质喷涂紫外线防护，而我们的防护实际上是靠织物的紧密程度或网眼的大小来实现的。

But the other factor and a way to differentiate ourself in a very competitive athleisure wear with UPF factor is most companies spray on the UV protection after production with a chemical, and ours is actually in the tightness or how open the weed is.

进入……

Into the...

进入……

Into the...

你就像……

You're going like...

就像是我把你放上去，然后……

It's like I I I I put you on, like...

就像是我把小火车放到轨道上，你直接就把它吹飞了。

It's like I put the little train on the track, you just, like, blew it right off.

你就像……你看你

You just, like There you

又来了。

go.

你得解释清楚这一切。

You have to you have to explain all that.

而且你可能是对的。

And you might be right.

就是说，你并没有错。

Like, it's not that you're wrong.

只是你又陷进去了。

It's just like you're in the weeds again.

比如说，我在换防晒霜。

Like, I'm replacing sunscreen.

因为现在大家都知道防晒霜有毒。

By the people know that sunscreen now is toxic.

这个，我觉得可以说……

Like, that's I'd say

别这么说，因为我们之前在咨询热线里请过一些防晒霜品牌。

Don't wanna say that because we've had some sunscreen brands on the advice line.

不是所有品牌都有问题。

Not all of them are touching.

所以……

So...

但是……

But...

所以作为消费者，我认为防晒霜对你不好。

So as a consumer as a consumer, I believe that sunscreen is not good for you.

有道理。

Fair enough.

这就是我现在的看法。

That's my belief now.

这就是我

That's what I've

听说的。

been told.

这就是我听说的。

That's what I've been told.

相信的。

Believe.

这就是我相信的。

That's what I believe.

好的。

Okay.

而且我跟人聊天的时候，大家好像都有这种想法，但我们也不知道怎么不涂防晒霜，因为我也知道把皮肤晒伤也不好。

And when I talk to people, they sort of have that belief, but we also don't know how to not put sunscreen on because I also know that burning my skin off is bad as well.

所以我觉得这就像是在瓶子里直接放一个机械防晒霜一样。

And so I do think it's like positioning yourself directly mechanical sunscreen in the bottle.

我在瓶子上看到它，就知道该怎么用，提前有意识，砰的一下。

I see it on the thing, know exactly what to do with it, pre awareness, boom.

是的，防晒霜很好。

And yes, sunscreen is great.

但结果我发现其实不是这样。

It just turns out that I think it's not.

我也不确定。

I don't know.

喜欢

Love

它。

it.

我觉得这也让你能用一种完全不同的方式去思考产品。

I think what that sets you up to do also is it lets you think about products in a really different way.

比如说，怎么用你那种材料做出真正能防晒的实物产品。

Like, how do I create real devices that protect from the sun that are made from this material that you have?

我懂你的意思。

I mean, I get it.

相信我。

Trust me.

就像我们的产品，虽然杰米觉得我们只做一种东西，但其实只是一个小细节不同。

Like, our our products, even though Jamie thinks we only make one thing, it's one small thing different.

他其实说得完全对。

He's actually dead right.

如果，你知道，米西能跟他深入聊聊她是怎么不用化学物质就做出防绒面料的。

If, you know, Missy can go deep with him on how she made a downproof fabric without chemicals.

但说到底，我也说不好。

But at the end of the day, it's like, I don't know.

羽绒服是舒适还是不舒适？

Is the is the downcomfort or comfortable?

你知道吗？

You know?

所以人们只是想要你的防晒产品。

And and and so people just want sun protection from you.

给他们就行了。

Give it to them.

是的。

Yes.

而且很方便。

And it's convenient.

我觉得你的机会很明显。

Your opportunity, I think, is clear here.

这不一定是在和运动休闲服市场竞争。

It's not it's not competing with the athleisure wear market necessarily.

它瞄准的是那些用防晒霜和防晒乳的人。

It's going after the people using sunblock and sunscreen.

太棒了。

That's brilliant.

谢谢你们，各位。

I appreciate it, guys.

而且我觉得，回到你刚才问的关于渠道的问题，你现在有了一个对手。

And I think to your question around, like, what channels should you think about, you now have an enemy.

你的对手就是防晒霜。

Your enemy is sunscreen.

去他们活跃的每个渠道追着他们打。

Go chase them in every channel that they play.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我那些做防晒霜的创始人朋友会杀了我的。

All my sunscreen founders are gonna kill me.

而且你知道零售业最喜欢什么吗？

And and you know what retail loves?

零售业喜欢过道里有新东西，能给那个过道带来更多收入。

Retail loves something new in an aisle that brings in more money to that aisle.

他们喜欢变化。

They love change.

他们喜欢这个。

They love this.

所以如果你去找他们说，你的防晒霜过道，我想这么做，他们会喜欢的。

So if you go to them and say, your sunscreen aisle, I wanna do this, they will love this.

利润率更高，每平方英尺的销售额也更高。

It's higher margin, higher per square per square foot sales.

这就像猫薄荷一样吸引人。

It's like, this is catnip.

CVS、沃尔格林，还有冲浪用品店之类的。

CVS, Walgreens, like surf shops.

好的。

Alright.

太棒了。

Awesome.

埃里克·亚历克森，L Cubed Lifestyle的联合创始人。

Eric Alexson, cofounder of L Cubed Lifestyle.

祝你好运，兄弟。

Good luck, man.

感谢你打来电话。

Thanks for calling in.

谢谢大家。

Thanks, guys.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

你们每小时收费多少，杰米？

How much do you guys charge an hour, Jamie?

你的时薪是多少？

What's your hourly?

能告诉我吗？

Can tell me?

太好了。

Brilliant.

我收费嘛，就是一顿牛排晚餐。

I charge, like, a steak dinner.

就是说，我希望埃里克，等他因为这个变成亿万富翁的时候，至少得请我吃顿牛排晚餐。

Like, I expect I expect Eric, when he's, a billionaire from this, to at least take me out for, like, a steak dinner.

和牛吗？

Wagyu?

还欠你一顿呢。

Still owe you one.

A5和牛，宫崎的？

A five, Miyazaki?

好耶。

Yay.

其实吧，我更喜欢普通的，

You know, I'm actually, like, more just like a regular,

就是普通的美国精选级牛肉。

like Regular USDA choice.

牛排配薯条。

Steak and fries.

你懂吧？

You know?

我不是那种...

Like, I'm not...

我不需要那种...

I don't need the...

我是说，和牛我还是会吃的。

I mean, I'll take a Wagyu.

我不记得我欠杰米一顿牛排晚餐是为了什么，然后那天我突然得了眩晕症。

I don't remember what I owed Jamie a steak dinner for something, and then I got vertigo that day.

然后我躺在床上，他说我装病。

And I'm, like, in bed, and he's like, you're so full of it.

我说，不是的，兄弟。

I'm like, no, dude.

我真的起不来。

I can't

脸都抬不起来。

get out of the face.

丹尼斯餐厅的牛排和鸡蛋。

Steak and eggs at Denny's.

那算不算数？

Does that count?

那个……

That...

没关系。

That's fine.

或者我有。

Or I have.

我不是……

I'm not...

我比较强势。

I'm aggressive.

我是丹尼斯餐厅的常客。

I'm a Denny's guy.

我是丹尼斯的人。

I'm a Denny's.

我选丹尼斯。

I'll take Denny's.

我从来没去过丹尼斯。

I've never been to a Denny's.

那家店很棒。

They're great.

那家店很棒，就像我……

They're great as I

我是说，我平时吃的都是些乱七八糟的东西，所以我觉得我会喜欢的。

mean, I I eat horrible things, so I think I would like it.

丹尼斯正合你胃口，斯科特。

Denny's is right up your alley, Scott.

爱死丹尼斯了。

Love Denny's.

完美。

Perfect.

你真该去丹尼斯。

You should be going to Denny's.

休息之后，另一位来电者带着另一个商业挑战来了。

After the break, another caller with another business challenge.

我是盖伊·拉兹，我们正在《我是如何打造这个》实验室的咨询热线回答你的商业问题。

I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

欢迎回到《我是如何打造这个》实验室的咨询热线。

Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

我是盖伊·拉兹，今天的嘉宾是Boll and Branch的联合创始人斯科特·坦南和Ring的创始人杰米·西米诺夫。

I'm Guy Raz, and my guests today are Boll and Branch cofounder Scott Tannen and Ring founder Jamie Siminoff.

斯科特、杰米，你们准备好接下一个电话了吗？

Scott, Jamie, you guys ready for another call?

走吧。

Let's go.

开始吧。

Let's do it.

欢迎来到咨询热线。

Welcome to the Advice Line.

你现在和斯科特、杰米连线了。

You're on with Scott and Jamie.

告诉我们你的名字、你从哪里打来，以及你的生意大概是什么情况。

Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

嘿，盖伊。

Hey, Guy.

嘿，杰米。

Hey, Jamie.

嘿，斯科特。

Hey, Scott.

我叫克里斯·麦克尔罗伊。

My name is Chris McElroy.

我是Nocs Provisions的CEO和创始人，我现在在加利福尼亚的阿尔卑斯草甸给你打电话。

I'm the CEO and founder of Nocs Provisions, and I'm calling from Alpine Meadows, California.

Nocs是BINOX的缩写，而BINOX又是双筒望远镜的缩写。

Nocs is short for BINOX, which is short for binoculars.

我们生产获奖的、设计精美的双筒望远镜、单筒望远镜和瞄准镜，品牌风格现代，倡导户外活动的可及性、包容性和在场感。

And we make award winning, beautifully designed binoculars, monoculars, and scopes with a modern brand that celebrates accessibility, inclusivity, and presence in the outdoors.

好的。

Alright.

太棒了。

Awesome.

克里斯，感谢你打来电话。

Chris, thanks for calling in.

描述一下……

Describe...

所以这些是双筒望远镜和单筒望远镜。

So these are binoculars and monoculars.

双筒望远镜？

Binoculars?

对吧？

Is that right?

那跟我说说，它们有什么特别之处？

And and tell me what makes them...

什么……

What...

我的意思是，它们有什么不同、出众或者独特的地方？

I mean, what makes them different or stand out or unique?

你知道，我们刚开始做这个公司的时候，想到能在足球赛、音乐节或者去海滩的时候用上望远镜，这个想法真的很吸引人。

You know, when we got the company going, the idea of having binoculars at a football game, a music festival, going out to the beach was was was really appealing.

然后我看了一下市场，工业设计基本上被那种千篇一律的黑色或绿色望远镜主导，各个品牌说的都是差不多的话。

And when I looked at the market, the industrial design was really just dominated by kind of a homogenous black or green binocular, brands that were kind of saying the same thing.

最后我们做的就是造出高质量、小巧的望远镜，设计好看，颜色鲜艳，而且品牌理念就是鼓励大家多去户外。

And ultimately what we did is we built high quality compact binoculars that are well designed, colorful, and wrapped up in a brand that really celebrates getting people in the outdoors.

我有一副望远镜，用起来特别笨重。

I have a pair of binoculars, and they're really clunky.

我……

I...

你把它们挂在脖子上，然后就是……

You put them around your neck, and it's...

就是……

It does...

感觉就像我八十年代小时候那样。

It feels like the same same way it felt like when I a kid in the eighties.

没什么太大变化。

It hasn't changed much.

当然，有不同种类的，但是……

Obviously, there are different kinds, but...

所以这就是……

So this is...

这些就是……

These are just...

它们更流线型。

They're sleeker.

我是说，它们……

I mean, they're...

就是……

It's...

我觉得它外面还有一层防滑涂层吧？

I guess, it's got a grippy outer coating too?

没错。

That's right.

我们一开始就是做一款紧凑型防水双筒望远镜，质量好，价格一百美元。

And and we got started by basically making a compact waterproof binocular, high quality, $100.

这是最初的构想。

That was the initial thesis.

你们做这个多久了？

How long have you been doing this?

我们做这个已经六年了。

We've been doing this for six years now.

明白了。

Got it.

那你之前是做什么的？

And what were you doing before?

在那之前，毕业后，2010年我就和别人一起创办了一家蓝牙音箱公司，那时候蓝牙还是新鲜事物。

Before that, after school, I had cofounded a Bluetooth speaker business in 2010 when Bluetooth was still new.

当时市场上全是黑色的小胶囊音箱，我们做了一系列彩色音箱，围绕它打造了一个很酷的品牌，最后拿到了风投，目标定得很高，结果只冲到了大气层就炸了。

And when the market was just all black little capsule speakers, we made a colorful speaker collection, built a really cool brand around it, and and ultimately raised VC money and really aimed for the moon and hit the atmosphere and blew up.

他说的炸了，是指公司破产了吗？

He blew up, meaning that the company went went bankrupt?

公司被拆着卖了，但那段经历很棒。

It was sold for parts, but it was a great run.

有点像读了个MBA。

It was kind of like getting an MBA.

学到了很多，去了中国大概20次。

Learned a ton, went to China probably 20 times.

那家公司倒闭之后，我造了一台3D打印机，心里想着要做下一个项目。

And after that went belly up, I built a three d printer and was kind of set on building the next thing.

有个朋友从Outside Lands音乐节回来，说：“天哪，要是我们有那种又时尚又酷的望远镜就好了。”

And a buddy came back from the Outside Lands Music Festival and said, Man, if only we had some stylish, cool binoculars, those would be great.

所以我看了看市场，作为产品人，真的觉得很困惑。

And so I took a look at the market and really, as a product person, was confused.

你要花500、700美元？对。

Do you spend $500, 700 Yeah.

50？

50?

这些品牌都是什么啊？

Like, what are these brands?

这看起来是个好机会，然后我就用了同样的套路……

It seemed like a great opportunity and kinda ran the same...

类似的打法又用了一遍。

Similar playbook back.

所以我把色彩和活力带到了这个领域。

So brought color, brought an active brand to that space.

太棒了。

Awesome.

那你做这行已经六年了。

So you've been doing this for six years now.

那你有没有像上次创业那样去拉外部投资，还是说……

And and and did you also raise outside capital like you did with your last business, or did you do...

你走了不同的路？

Did you take a different route?

我们确实走了不同的路。

We took a different route.

那是一次很好的学习经历，也得到了很好的指导。

It was a great learning experience, great mentorship.

我们……

We...

那段时间确实不错，但话说回来，那种回报率对于……

It was a good run, but, again, that type of return on an...

对于生活方式品牌来说，我觉得不太符合风投的模式。

On a lifestyle brand, I don't think fits the VC sort of paradigm.

所以对于Nocs，我们……

And so with Nocs, it was...

一直都是靠自有资金在运营。

It's been bootstrapped this whole time.

不错。

Nice.

给我们介绍一下……

And give us a sense of...

这些产品主要是在网上卖，还是在实体店卖？

And these are mainly sold online or or in shops?

它们在哪里销售？

Where where are they sold?

我们在美国各地的核心户外零售商那里销售。

We sell in core outdoor retailers across The United States.

我们在加拿大、新西兰、澳大利亚和欧洲也有销售。

We sell in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Europe.

我们在全美的REI和Dick's Sporting Goods都有销售。

We're in REI nationwide as well as Dick's Sporting Goods nationwide.

当然，我们还有自己的亚马逊店铺和直接面向消费者的渠道。

And then, of course, we have our own Amazon and direct to consumer channel.

那你们现在的销售额是多少？

And and what are you guys doing in sales right now?

去年，我们突破了1000万。

Last year, we crested 10,000,000.

哇，真厉害。

And Wow.

今年更是惊人。

This year incredible.

而今年，我们……

And this year, we...

在户外行业面临相当大的逆风以及关税的情况下，我们又达到了这个数字。

We've hit that again in some pretty intense headwinds in the outdoor industry and given tariffs.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

我们有一个很棒的团队。

We've got a great team.

恭喜。

Congrats.

那你有什么问题要问我们？

And what's your question for us?

我们最初在核心户外渠道看到了这种增长。

We've seen this growth initially in the core outdoor channels.

一直都很不错。

It's been great.

但我们知道我们的光学产品用途不止于此。

But we know our optics have utility beyond this.

我们怎么让人们意识到，除了观鸟或打猎这些传统户外场景，也应该使用双筒望远镜呢？

How do we drive awareness that people should use binoculars outside of traditional outdoor channels such as birding or hunting?

杰米·西米诺夫，这听起来就像你早期的时候，自己动手做东西，不断尝试，想搞出新发明，但一开始并不顺利。

Jamie Siminoff, sounds like you in the early days, building stuff, trying tinkering, trying to come up with a new invention, that not working.

但实际上，经历失败是非常宝贵的经验。

But actually having a failure is a hugely advantageous experience.

所以，顺便说一句，克里斯，我也要为你点赞，因为你在第一次尝试不成功之后，马上又回来继续努力。

So, by the way, kudos to you also, Chris, for for coming right back to it after that, you know, that first thing didn't work out.

所以，

So

看到有人能这样重新振作，总是让人欣慰的。

It's it's always good to see someone recover like that.

我的意思是，这……

I mean, it's...

而且它……

And it it...

人们……

People...

事后说起来总是很容易，比如，说这有多容易……

It's always easy afterwards to, like, say how easy...

我确实又创立了另一家公司，但是，经历那段低谷期真的……

I have built another business, but, like, going through that trough is...

非常艰难。

It's really tough.

所以，是的，你能挺过来，并且建立起一个非常成功的企业，真的很了不起。

So so, yeah, kudos for being able to get through it and build a incredibly successful business so

到目前为止。

far.

谢谢。

Thank you.

那你觉得这里怎么样？

So what so what do you think here?

我是说，你怎么……

I mean, how do you...

你们两位会怎么开始着手回答这个问题，或者你们对克里斯有什么想问的吗？

How would you start either of you guys in in in sort of tackling the question or any questions that you might have for Chris?

对我来说，我看着这个，心里想，好吧。

I mean, for me, I'm looking at it and saying, okay.

如果你想拓展到不同的领域，你怎么把这个东西跟手机连接起来？

If you wanna expand in different things, how do you attach this to the phone?

我在想，比如抖音、Instagram，有没有办法把它整合到手机壳或者别的什么配件里，这样能更多地利用数字化，然后借此高效地推广出去，因为很明显，任何顶层的广告投放都会非常贵。

I'm thinking about like TikTok, Instagram, and like, is there a way to integrate something into like a case or some, you know, something with the phones, you're getting more of that digital and then using that as a way to sort of efficiently get this out there because obviously any, like, top of the funnel advertising is gonna be very expensive.

我觉得这真的很有意思。

I think it's really interesting.

很多品牌都面临这样的挑战，就是如何确立自己的定位。

Like, a lot of brands have this challenge of developing their own positioning.

你得把整个品类重新定位一下。

You have to actually deposition the rest of the category.

我都不知道这个词是不是我现编的。

And I don't even know if I just made up that word.

多半是我编的。

I probably did.

杰米待会儿可能会指出这一点。

Jamie will kinda point that out later.

挺好的。

It's good.

但先开始吧。

But Start.

但我觉得，如果你想想自己是什么，对吧，你和品类里现有的东西是一样的。

But I think that, like, if you think about what you are, right, you are the same thing that exists in the category.

但你又完全不一样，至少在外观、呈现方式以及所有这些方面。

But you're also completely not, at least in terms of what you look like and how you show up and all of those things.

所以我觉得你的直觉是对的，要想办法把它做成某种生活方式配件，出现在那种你不想带着……的世界里。

So I think your instincts are right to figure out how do I make this some sort of lifestyle accessory that exists in a world where you wouldn't wanna bring...

比如说，你知道，那个在足球比赛天冷时穿着荧光橙狩猎装备的家伙？

Like, you know, the guy that shows up at a football game when it's cold and he's wearing his fluorescent orange hunting gear?

你不想在体育场里成为那个拿着迷彩望远镜的人。

Like, you don't wanna be that guy in the stadium with your camouflage binoculars.

你想要的是Nocs。

You wanna have Nocs.

那我们怎么实现这一点呢？

And and so how do we deliver on that?

我们怎么……

How do we...

而且我觉得Jamie说得对。

And and I think Jamie's right.

比如，找到正确的方式和社交媒体结合，这样它就开始出现在你常去的地方，如果你的生活方式是这样，那Nocs就是你该有的品牌。

Like, figuring out the right way to integrate with social media so that that it it starts being like the places you show up, it makes sense that Nocs is the brand that you're gonna have if that's your lifestyle.

我就像个宅男，但偶尔也会出去看体育比赛什么的。

Like, I'm an indoor cat, but I occasionally go outside to, like, sporting events and stuff.

我不像杰米那样种地或者干那些活儿。

I don't farm and do stuff like Jamie does.

所以我的需求是少一点迷彩，多一点亮色。

And so my needs are for less camo and more bright colors.

我一看就喜欢上了，心想：这个我要了。

Like, I saw it, and I'm like, I'm in.

不错。

Cool.

斯科特，我知道你是个超级橄榄球迷，或者以前是。我小时候用望远镜的经历就是去看49人队的比赛。

And, Scott, I know you're a big football fan or or were, and my experience with binoculars growing up was going to 49er games.

就那样。

That was it.

那是一个简单的第一步，或者说不是简单，但很明显的第一步，去开拓户外这个领域。

It was an easy first step or not an easy, but an obvious first step to pursue the outdoor channel.

我们现在到了一个节点，是不是要全力进军音乐节？

And we're at a point now where it's like, do we go all in and go into music festivals?

我们要不要争取NFL的授权？

Do we pursue, like, an NFL license?

我只是……

I just...

我确实觉得……

I I do think...

我只会看看，比如……

I just would look at, like...

随着你继续说，还有Scott刚才说的，感觉就是，大多数人现在去这些活动，不是为了亲眼去看，而是为了拍照。我觉得这挺可悲的。

As as you keep talking and as Scott was talking, it's like, but people don't go to these things anymore, most of them, and by this is very sad, I think, but they go to capture the photo, not to see it themselves.

望远镜是给你自己用的。

Binoculars are for you.

所以我觉得，关键是要想办法让望远镜体现出这一点。

And so I think it is trying to figure out how to get the binocular to show that.

顺便说一下，Ring，我们给每个视频都加了水印。

And by the way, Ring, we watermarked every video.

所以当你看到Ring，发生什么事然后上了新闻，旁边会写着Ring。

So when you see a Ring, something happens and then it's on the news, it says Ring on the side.

你能想办法做到那样吗？

Can you figure out how to somehow get towards that?

因为实际上，我在看足球比赛时最想做的就是拍张照片给朋友看，证明我在场，这就是Nocs的用武之地……

Because the reality is what I really wanna do when I'm at the football game is take a picture to show my friends that I was there, and that's where the Nocs kind of...

你能做到吗，我想？

Can can you get that, I guess?

因为孩子们，我现在走到哪儿，他们都在自拍，拍那些短视频……

Because kids, I mean, everywhere I go now, all they do is these selfies and these tick...

就像，这……

Like, it's...

再说一次，我个人不太喜欢这样，但我觉得从商业角度，你得顺应这个趋势。

Again, I I don't love it personally, but I think from a business side, you have to lean into it.

我觉得这真的非常有意思。

I think that's I think that's really, really interesting.

我……

I...

我想换个角度来说。

I'm gonna take a slightly different tack.

我觉得杰米说的可能是对的。

I think Jamie's probably right.

如果你想赚钱，就听杰米的建议。

Like, if you wanna make money, follow Jamie's advice.

如果你不想赚钱，就听我接下来要说的，其实我觉得你最大的竞争对手是分心。

If you don't wanna make money, follow the advice I'm about to give you, which is I actually think your biggest competition is distraction.

而且我对那些喜欢模拟体验、把手机放一边的人特别感兴趣。

And and I'm really interested in this whole movement of people who are interested in analog experiences, putting their phones...

我有一个叫“砖头”的东西。

I've got this thing called a brick.