Figma：Dylan Field

他们现在更兴奋了。

And they're more excited now.

因为他们见到了其他所有决赛选手，心里想，原来如此。

In because they've met all these other finalists and went, oh.

我爸爸是这么说的：我一直觉得你挺怪的，但这些人也一样怪。

Or as my dad put it, he goes, I always thought you were weird, but these people are weird too.

没错。

Right.

所以你在大三结束时，也就是2012年5月，得知自己获得了这项奖学金。

And so you are you find out at the end of your junior year, May 2012, that you you get the fellowship.

埃文快毕业了，他也会加入你。

Evan is about to graduate, and he's gonna join you.

你们要搬回加利福尼亚，开始着手做这件事。

You're gonna move to California back home, and you're gonna start working on this.

所以严格来说，我想你是休学了。

So you took technically, I think you took a leave of absence.

你并没有从布朗大学退学。

You did not drop out of Brown.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yep.

没错。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这些奖学金之所以备受关注，是因为它真的非常重要。

I mean, there's a and, you know, these fellowships get so much attention because it's such a big deal.

你知道，彼得·蒂尔在鼓励那些有好点子的二十岁年轻人去追求梦想。

I mean, you know, Peter Thiel is encouraging people 20 who have great ideas to to pursue them.

对。

Yeah.

我当时对这个奖学金很兴奋，而且其他申请或获得这个奖学金的人也都特别厉害。

I was excited about the fellowship and and also the other people that were taking the fellowship were or or applying were just so cool.

而且能有这样一个群体，大家真的都懂我正在经历什么，能和他们相处，这在社交上给了我很大支持，也特别鼓舞人心。

And the chance just to have this community around of people that literally knew what I was going through and spend time with them, it was just socially very helpful and also very inspiring.

大家会鼓励你，说：嘿。

People would push you and say, hey.

你干嘛想得这么小？

Like, why are you thinking small?

想得大一点。

Think bigger.

我觉得，这正是我们后来能走到Figma这一步的重要推动力。

And that actually I think was a big input to why we got to where we eventually headed for Figma.

明白了。

Alright.

有一篇关于那段时期的文章，我记得《波士顿环球报》写过一篇关于你的报道。

So you in in in an article an article written about that time, I think the press democrat wrote a piece about you.

那时候你还在摸索这个东西到底要变成什么样，因为你才刚开始做。

You were still I don't I don't wanna say vague, but you were still, like, working out what this is gonna be because you're starting to work on this.

那时候大家把它形容成浏览器里的 Photoshop。

And it was described at the time as, like, Photoshop in a browser.

你知道的。

You know?

记者们是这么说的，而我本人以前也是记者。

Journalists and and I say this as somebody who was a journalist.

我觉得他们是出于好意，想把事情说得简单点，好让人明白。

I think for for well intentioned reasons, like to simplify things so people can understand.

对吧？

Right?

好让大家能想象出那是个什么东西。

So they can visualize what it is.

最初人们就是这么描述它的。

And that was kind of initially how people described it.

我想那个夏天，就你和埃文两个人一起在做。

And and I guess that summer, it was just you and Evan kind of working together.

你当时跟我讲过，你们每天到底在忙些什么？

And what were you tell me what you guys were literally doing every day.

首先，我们其实八月才开始，因为Evan得先毕业，所以我们拿到奖学金后，比预期晚了一点才启动。

Well, so first of all, we didn't start till August because Evan want to graduate, of course, and we got started a bit later than when we received the fellowship.

而且我们的启动时间正好赶上了奖学金方安排的媒体宣传。

And the start coincided with media that the fellowship had kind of offered up.

所以，说真的，刚拿到奖学金、和Evan一起开始工作的头一两天，我就和我妈飞去纽约上《今日秀》了。

And so, you know, the actual, like, first or second day of doing the fellowship, starting work with Evan, I flew out to New York with my mom to be on the Today show.

那时候我根本还不清楚我们要做什么，因为事情才刚起步。

And I had no idea what we're doing yet because we hadn't barely started.

所以……

And so

他们可能在节目里说：‘今天我们要介绍一位天才少年，迪伦·菲尔德。’

probably were like, and today, we're gonna introduce you to a whiz kid genius, Dylan Field.

‘欢迎来到《今日秀》，能跟我们说说，你打算做点什么吗？’

Welcome to the Today Show, and they were saying, and and tell us what what are you gonna do?

那你打算怎么改变世界呢？

Well, how are you gonna change the world?

是的。

Yeah.

我当时给了他一个很模糊的回答，因为我们自己也不清楚。

I gave him a very vague answer because we really didn't know.

稍后回来，戴伦和埃文将推出一款将改变设计师工作方式的工具，结果却发现，很多设计师根本不想改变自己的工作方式。

When we come back in just a moment, Dylan and Evan launch a tool that will change how designers work, only to learn that a lot of designers don't really wanna change how they work.

敬请关注。

Stay with us.

我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听《我是如何打造的》。

I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

嗨。

Hey.

欢迎回到《我是如何打造的》。

Welcome back to How I Built This.

我是盖·拉兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

那是2012年的夏天，迪伦和他的搭档埃文正为蒂尔奖学金做准备，他们当时在搞一个跟设计有关的点子。

So it's the summer of twenty twelve, and Dylan and his partner, Evan, are gearing up for the Thiel fellowship, working on an idea that has something to do with design.

我们最先琢磨的是人脸互换。

The first thing we looked at was two d face swapping.

简单说吧，我有了你的脸。

So, basically, you know, I got your face.

我也有了我的脸。

I got my face.

那怎么才能把你的脸换到我脸上呢？

How can I take your face and swap it onto my face?

这玩意儿挺适合当派对上的小把戏。

Kind of a cool party trick.

不过，埃文找到了一种叫泊松融合的技术，用一些图形魔法，能在浏览器里实时快速实现，结果我们只用了一周就做出了一个特别惊艳的演示。

But with, something called Poisson blending, which, Evan found a way to do very fast in real time in the browser with, you know, some graphics wizardry, we were able to make it so that, we had an amazing demo in just, like, a week.

而且

And

不过我先插一句。

So but just to just interrupt for sec.

你当时其实并不是在随便玩这些想法。

You weren't necessarily, like, playing around with these ideas.

听起来你们的目标也不是那些正经的设计师群体。

Sounds like you weren't going for, like, the serious designer crowd.

更像是那些想做表情包的人。

Maybe, like, more, like, people who wanted to make memes.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，第一个版本确实是，不过我们当时也在考虑一些不那么偏表情包的普通用户场景。

I mean, it it was that first one, yes, I think we were also looking at more consumer cases that were not as meme oriented as well.

后来我们干脆直接做了一个表情包生成器。

At some point later on, we literally created a meme creator.

对。

Mhmm.

那是Figma最黑暗的一周。

That was the darkest week of Figma.

我当时向Evan推销，说我已经做了研究，也看了数据。

You I was pitching Evan saying, look, I've done the research, I've looked at the data.

这个 meme 的东西，我们觉得稀松平常，因为天天上网，到处都能看到，也跟朋友分享。

This meme thing, we're just used to it because it's internet culture and we see it online all the time and we share them with our friends.

但大多数人还没接触到这个。

But most people haven't discovered it yet.

这还只是 meme 这个指数级趋势的早期阶段。

Like it's a very early part of an exponential trend around memes.

Meme 将来会变得比我们能想象的还要大得多。

Memes are gonna be way bigger than we could ever possibly imagine.

我们该做个 meme 创作工具。

We should make a meme creator.

Evan说：‘你认真的？’

And Evan's like, are you serious?

所以他勉强陪我折腾了大概一周，五天左右。

And so he kind of humored me for a week or so, like five days.

我们做了一个表情包生成器，说实话，做得还挺不错的。

We made a meme generator and, you know, it was a very good meme generator.

到了周末，我们俩对视一眼，我心里想：天啊，我为了这个从布朗大学退学了？

And, you know, at the end of the week, we just kinda looked at each other, and and I'm, going, man, I I dropped out of Brown for this.

Evan说：‘我觉得我可能要辞职了。’

And Evan's going, I think I'm gonna quit.

这其实是个信号，说明我们该去干点更正经的事了。

And it was a good sign of, like, we're gonna work on some more serious stuff.

所以

One so

你们当时在做这个，我来确认一下理解对不对——今天大家通常简单地说，Figma就像是图片和设计领域的Google Docs。

so you guys are working on this, and they go and just so I can understand this, you know, today, oftentimes, Figma is kind of described in shorthand as Google Docs, but for images, for for graphics, for design.

这个想法是什么时候开始成型的？

When did that idea start to converge?

2013年的时候，你们俩是不是突然想到，要是能做个像Google Docs那样的协作工具，但专门用于设计、图形和图片，会怎么样？

When was it in 2013 when you when the two of you thought, well, what if we build a collaboration tool like Google Docs, for for design, for for for graphics, for images?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得在Flipboard工作、跟那里的设计师一起合作的经历，一直让我觉得参与设计流程是一件特别棒的事。

So I think that that experience of working at Flipboard, working with the designers there, it always been my mind as something that was amazing to be part of this design process.

Flipboard那时候远远走在了时代前面，但根本就没有协作功能。

And Flipboard was way ahead of its time, and the collaboration didn't exist.

那时候，要么就是通过邮件发文件，最好的情况也不过是把文件丢进Dropbox文件夹里。

It was, you know, emailing files or at best, you put them in a Dropbox folder.

但你也知道，那情况有多落后。

But you know?

如果你是个设计师，经常要协作，可能会收到别人发来的文件，改一改，结果才发现这文件已经过时两天了，别人早就在新的版本上继续做了。

And oftentimes, if if you were a designer working collaboratively, you might start to work on something that was emailed to you, fix it up, but then only to realize that, like, this is, like, already two days old and people are Yeah.

我们之前已经拿它做过别的东西了。

Have already done other stuff with it.

我和埃文都是看着谷歌文档长大的，从小就玩多人在线游戏。

And I you know, Evan and I both grew up using Google Docs, playing multiplayer games.

所以实时协作这种模式对我们来说是天经地义的，理所当然就该这么干。

And so the nature of real time collaboration, that was native to us and just kind of like obviously the way that things should work.

不过，我们当时对设计领域的市场规模并不确定。

That said, we weren't sure about the market size for design.

我查过美国劳工统计局的数据，说美国大概有二十万设计师。

You know, I looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and it said there is something like 200,000 designers in The United States.

这指的是网页设计师。

For web designers it is.

所以这个数字显然不算大。

And so that's obviously like a pretty small number.

是的。

Yeah.

同时，我们觉得这里面肯定有门道。

And at the same time, we felt like there's something there.

我们觉得这可能是一个切入点。

We felt like maybe this is a starting point.

之后我们再拓展到其他领域，但先试试看吧。

We go broader afterwards into other areas, but let let's try it out.

另外澄清一下，你查了劳工统计局的数据，发现2013年美国只有20万网页设计师，这确实有点让人难以置信。

And and just to just to clarify, you looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers and saw that in 2013, there were only 200,000 web designers in The US, which is kind of hard to believe.

但正因为市场小，如果你的目标客户就是这群人的话。

But because it's a small market, if if that's who your target audience was.

但你直觉觉得，现有的工具都很笨重，还得靠插件，协作起来也不方便，所以你觉得这里头确实有机会。

But you had a hunch that given the the tools that were available, which are clunky and there were plug ins and they weren't really they didn't make collaboration easy, You felt like there was a real opportunity here.

你们当时有去问过别人的意见吗？要知道那时候离做出能用的产品还差得远呢。

Did you get I mean and this is still you're still miles away from having a product ready to go.

你们有从用户那儿听到类似的反馈吗？

But did you hear that from people?

你有没有机会去采访设计师，或者跟他们聊聊，问问他们真正需要什么？

Were you did you have an opportunity to to interview designers or to talk to them and ask them what they wanted?

有的。

Yeah.

我当时在Flipboard做设计师，或者说是设计实习生。

So both I'd been working as a designer at Flipboard or design intern.

我就去找了我认识的其他设计师，跟他们交流。

I went and talked with other designers that I knew.

我还开始主动接触、调研，了解公司是怎么组建设计团队的。

I also started talking and researching and learning about how companies were growing their design teams.

我发现一件事特别奇怪：这些公司明明在设计上投入了大量资源。

And there's something that was, like, seemed very off because these companies were investing a lot in design.

比如Facebook，直接收购整家设计公司，就为了扩大自己的设计团队。

You know, Facebook was acquiring entire design agencies to try to make their design team bigger.

可这就让人纳闷了：既然这么多人在招设计人才，为什么还会觉得人手不够？

And it was like, wait, how is it the case that all this hiring is going on?

但美国的网页设计师总共才几十万而已。

Yet there's only a few 100,000 web designers in The United States.

要么是数字错了，要么就是增长得太快，根本无所谓。

Like, either the number's wrong or it's growing so fast that it doesn't matter.

不管怎样，其他方面我们以后再聊。

And either way, we can go into other areas later.

所以我觉得，咱们开始吧。

So I think let's go.

咱们这就动手干。

Let's go do this.

一开始，我们特别关注从工具角度出发，能有哪些地方能做得更好——不是协作方面，而是作为单个用户，你能体验到哪些突破性改进？

And at first, we were very focused on what are the things that we can just do so much better from the tool standpoint, not the collaborative standpoint, but as an individual user, you know, what are the breakthroughs we can introduce?

我们能不能设计出更棒的网格和参考线工具？

Can we make a better way to create, grids and guides?

还有，我们到底该怎么在网页上构建这么庞大的项目？

Also, how do we honestly build a project of this magnitude on the web?

这方面我们确实花了不少精力去研究技术上到底能实现什么。

That was something that, you know, we had a lot of technical work to do to figure out what was possible.

好的。

Alright.

所以你们是把重点完全放在这个想法上，而且投入力度很大。

So you have so you guys are really focusing, doubling down on this idea.

而且因为有Thiel奖学金，我猜肯定有很多人对此很感兴趣，甚至可能盲目投资你们的项目。我敢肯定有人会说，我就直接往每个人身上砸五十万美元。

And because of the Thiel fellowship, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are interested in in, you know, maybe even blindly investing in whatever you're I'm sure there are people who are like, I'm just gonna put, you know, half $1,000,000 down on every single one of these people.

你之前就和LinkedIn的CEO杰夫·威纳有过接触。

You had already had a relationship with Jeff Weiner, the CEO of LinkedIn.

他早在两年前就跟你说，嘿。

He had told you, like, two years before, hey.

如果你打算创业，随时联系我。

If you ever start something, get in touch with me.

事实上，你们确实去找了他和其他一些人，成功融到了种子轮资金。

And in fact, you guys went to him and a group of other people to raise some money for seed funding, which you did.

自2013年6月以来，你们已经筹集了将近四百万美元。

You raised almost $4,000,000 since June 2013.

所以拿到蒂尔奖学金大约一年后，那时候你们的想法到底成型了吗？我是说，你们能说清楚这东西到底要做什么吗？

So about a year after you got the Thiel fellowship, what did you what was the I mean, at that point, was it a fully formed idea?

那时候你们能讲明白这个项目具体会是什么样子吗？

Was it were you able to articulate what this was going to be?

说实话，还没到那一步。

You know, not not yet.

我后来回过头看了当年的路演材料，说实话，要是我在2013年看到那个版本，我可能都不会投自己。那时候太模糊了。

You know, I I honestly, I've looked back at that pitch, and I don't know if I would invest in myself if I saw it, you know, you know, back in 2013, it was it was very vague.

那时候我们还说不清楚具体要做什么，策略也还没定下来。

It was not clear yet, like, what we're gonna do exactly and exactly the strategy was.

这些其实很快就明确了。

I think that came very shortly afterwards.

不过我们在方向还不是很清晰的时候，就已经把钱筹到了。

But we raised just a bit ahead of being concrete on our direction.

有一个人你特别希望他能参与进来，他就是约翰·利利。他之前是Mozilla的CEO，后来成了Greylock的合伙人。

There was a one guy you really wanted to be involved with this, and this was a guy named John Lilly who was he had been the CEO of Mozilla and was now a partner of Greylock.

我想你希望他加入，是因为他在Mozilla的经验，也就是经营浏览器业务方面的经验。

And I imagine you wanted him involved because of his experience with Mozilla, you know, running a browser business.

但他最后决定不在种子轮投资。他觉得你们当时还没想清楚具体要做什么。

But he did not he decided he was not gonna invest at the seed level, that you he didn't feel like you guys really knew what you were gonna do.

这其实不太寻常。

And and normally not normally.

所以很多时候，人们就直接放弃了，心想好吧。

So oftentimes, people just move on, and they're like, okay.

他不想做。

He doesn't wanna do it.

但你真的很希望他能参与进来。

But you were really you wanted him involved.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我必须想办法让他明白，这件事真的值得做。

And I guess you you felt like you had to figure out a way to get him to convince him that this was gonna be something.

能跟我聊聊你们之间的这段关系吗？

What tell me a little bit about that relationship.

约翰这个人真的特别棒。

Well, I mean, John is just a excellent human.

我一见到他就特别佩服他。

And immediately I was just so impressed.

他不仅为人正直，而且做事清晰有原则。

Like not only was he super high integrity, it was just very clear and principled.

他对设计的执着和热情，简直让人惊叹。

But he was also his his belief, his care about design, it was off the charts.

然后他说，我很乐意保持联系。

And then said, hey, I'm down to keep in touch.

我觉得你们这些人很不错。

I like you guys.

咱们继续聊吧。

Let's just keep talking.

你知道吗，大概一年半以后，约翰跟我说，如果你打算再融资，记得告诉我。

You know, at some point maybe a year and a half or so later, John said, you know, if you're ever thinking about raising another round, let me know.

对。

Right.

所以他又过了一年半才再次在资金上介入。

So it would be another year and a half before he would factor in again financially.

但在这期间，你手头有将近四百万美元的资金，这已经是个相当充裕的缓冲了。

But during that that year and a half, you had 4 almost $4,000,000 to work with, which is a pretty good pretty good runway.

这时候，你才真正开始打造产品。

And now you begin to build something.

对吧？

Right?

在你心里，你预计什么时候能做出一个能让一些人试用的产品？

In your mind, when did you expect to have a product ready for at least for some people to play with?

哦，我当时完全不切实际。

Oh, I I was totally unrealistic.

我得翻一下演示文稿，但记得我们大概以为一年左右，最多一年半就能搞定。

I'd have to check the deck, but I think we probably expected it to be, like, you know, a year or so, maybe a year and a half.

不过，我们真觉得这事儿会很顺利。

But, yeah, we we thought it would be a pretty straight shot.

结果根本不是这么回事。

It was not.

拖了挺长时间才弄出来。

It was it took a while.

为了让你更清楚，我想深入说一下，真正能让设计师试用的产品，花了差不多两年时间。

So just to kind of put this in context, I wanna dig into this, it would take about two years before you had something that you could let designers play with.

那时候你已经组建了一个大约十人的团队，帮你和埃文一起打造这个产品。

And you had a team, I think around 10 people that you were able to bring on to help you and Evan build this thing.

对。

Mhmm.

你现在是CEO了。

Now you're the CEO.

对吧？

Right?

埃文当时是首席技术官吗？正式的？

Evan was the CTO technically or or officially?

是的。

Yes.

明白了。

Okay.

你们俩都是，我是说，他年纪大一点，但你那时候，天啊，多大？

And both of you are like I mean, he's a little bit older, but you're, god, what?

我也说不准。

I don't know.

那时候你可能21岁，或者20岁。

21 maybe by this point, 20.

而且你唯一的经历就只有这个。

And your only experience only.

你确实有经验，但那只是实习，说白了就是个有报酬的实习生。

You experience, but it was an as an intern, basically, a paid intern.

你之前在好几家公司当过实习生，现在才二十岁。

You had been an intern for a bunch of companies, and now you're 20.

你人很好，但完全没当过领导或经理的经验。

And you, are a very nice guy, but zero experience as a leader or a manager.

这很正常，二十岁的人哪儿来的这种经验？

Understandably, who what 20 year olds have that experience?

你连夏令营辅导员都没当过。

You know, he I'd you weren't even a camp counselor.

对吧？

Right?

你就连

Like, you'd

我当过宿舍管理员。

I've been RA.

好吧。

But Okay.

你当过...

You've been

对不起。

a sorry.

你当过宿舍管理员，对吧？

You've been a resident adviser on your dorm.

没错。

Right?

但现在你管着一家十个人的公司，他们多半比你年长，说不定全都是。

But now you're running a business of 10 people, probably a bunch of them older than you, if not all of them.

而且

And

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得当时每个人年纪都比我大。

I think everyone was older than me at some point.

而且你还在开发这个产品。

And and and you were also building this product.

所以跟我聊聊当经理、带团队的经历吧。

So tell me a little bit about about being a manager, running a team.

你是怎么应对的？

How did you how did that work out?

我觉得我们当时有一个非常清晰的产品路线图，大家都觉得这事有戏。

Well, I think that we had a very clear product road map, and we all felt that there was something here.

但我本可以做得更好，比如多带大家跟客户交流之类的。

But I could have done a better job of helping people see it through, like, conversations with customers and whatnot.

我确实一直在跟客户沟通。

I was having those conversations.

我本来打算回来，把所有笔记都分享给大家。

You know, I'd kinda come back, share all my notes.

但我发现，如果员工不直接和用户交流，他们根本体会不到那种感觉。

But if what I found is that if employees are not talking with user directly, they just don't see it the same way.

除非能亲自和用户互动，听到他们的真实反馈，否则他们很难理解用户真正的困扰。

And they don't understand the pain that people have unless they can actually interact with folks and hear about it firsthand.

我觉得，作为管理者，其实还有很多可以改进的地方。

And and I think, you know, there's plenty of things that could be done on on manager's side to be better.

但说实话，问题并没有立刻爆发，而是过了一阵子才突然出现。

But I think it was it it didn't really, like, blow up per se until a little later.

那后来到底发生了什么？

Then what was the blowup about?

因为有一刻，团队里十个人全都来找你，直接跟你摊牌了，具体我也说不太清。

Because, like, at a some point, everybody on the team, like, 10 people, they confronted you, and they were like, I don't know.

他们跟你说了些什么？

What did they say to you?

是的

Yeah.

那时候，我们刚完成了约翰·利利领投的融资，时间也改到了2015年12月。

So that point, we had raised our a round from John Lilly, And we moved to December 2015.

明白了

Okay.

对

Yep.

对

Yep.

然后我们搬到了旧金山。

And moved to San Francisco.

而且说实话，那段时间我个人也过得特别艰难。

And you know, also I was like definitely going through a hard time personally.

我父亲被确诊得了癌症，而我自己也根本算不上什么有经验的管理者。

You know, my dad had been diagnosed with cancer and I certainly was not an experienced manager.

我当时还在摸索怎么设定目标、怎么激励团队这些基本功。

I was still kind of getting the mechanics right around how do you just set goals and motivate people.

而且我们连一个产品都没发布出来。

And we still haven't shipped anything.

你懂的吧？

You know?

现在大家开始看表了，心里嘀咕：这东西到底还发不发得出来？

And now people are kinda looking at the clock and going, is this ever gonna ship?

这事儿是不是没完没了了？

Is this just, like, endless?

戴伦，如果是你，你会怎么做？

What would you Dylan, what would you do?

我觉得你没冲人吼过，也没欺负过谁。

You because I I don't think you were yelling at people or you were mistreating people.

你有事无巨细地管着他们吗？

Were you micromanaging?

你是不是拖慢了进度？

Were you slowing the process down?

你具体做了什么，让团队里的人感到沮丧？

Were you tell me what you were doing that was causing frustration among your team.

说我是微观管理，这说法挺准确的，甚至可能还说得太轻了。

Micromanaging is a good way to describe it, perhaps even a mild way.

很长一段时间里，我对产品体验的每一个细节都考虑得特别细。

I think I had for quite a while thought about every aspect of the product experience we wanted to build.

我感觉压力特别大，急着要把东西推出来。

And I felt a lot of pressure to get something out there.

所以我一来就直接说：‘我们就这么干。’

And so I would just kind of come in and say, Hey, this is the way we're gonna do it.

结果你发现，招来的都是聪明人，他们自己也有想法。

Turns out when you hire smart people, they have ideas too.

而且有时候，他们的想法真的特别特别棒。

And also turns out that sometimes those ideas are like really, really excellent.

但我觉得，时间紧迫加上我之前想得太多，让我固执地觉得，我们就得这么干。

But I think the time urgency combined with, like, having thought about it a lot made me lean into, you know, we just gotta do it this way.

咱们 proceed 吧。

Let's go.

那种工作氛围，我想谁都不会觉得舒服。

And that was not a fun environment to be in, I think.

你说团队成员因为产品还没准备好而沮丧，是因为你吗？

When you say people are getting frustrated because the product wasn't wasn't ready to be shipped, was that because of you?

你一直说，产品还没准备好。

You kept saying it's just not ready.

还不够好，是吗？

It's not good enough yet?

我们其实做过验证。

Well, we we validated that.

我们跑出去，找了硅谷，尤其是旧金山的很多公司，跟他们聊了聊，估计得有几十家吧。

So we went out and, found all these companies in Silicon Valley, in San Francisco especially, and we talked with, you know, I don't know, must have been dozens of companies.

我们给他们看Figma，他们的反应都很平淡。

We'd show them Figma and just kind of like a flat response.

他们没什么兴趣。

They were not too interested.

就只是说，哦，还行。

They're just kind of like, oh, cool.

所以你们其实是在测试，对吧？反馈并不理想。

So you were you were basically try I mean, you had tested this, and people were based the feedback wasn't great.

所以你们还不能把它发布出去。

So you couldn't you couldn't put it out there yet.

当你的团队来找你的时候，他们说了什么？

And and when your team came to you, I mean, what did they say?

他们有没有说，戴伦，你管理得不太好？

Did they say, Dylan, you know, you're not you're not managing well?

他们是怎么跟你提这件事的？

Like, how did they confront you?

是的。

Yeah.

很明显，大家都不太满意。

I mean, people were were clearly not happy.

他们觉得我需要帮助。

They felt like I needed help.

他们说得对。

They're right.

我确实需要帮助。

I actually did need help.

我需要有人来帮我处理管理方面的事。

I needed someone to help on the management side.

如果不请人来帮忙分管一部分业务，我们很难快速扩张。

We were not gonna be able to scale fast enough without bringing someone else on to help run a part of the company.

但我当时有点受伤，可能是因为我确实把全部心血都投入进去了，而且说实话，我后来确实提高过嗓门，这让我挺内疚的。

I just kind of like felt offended though I think because I obviously poured my heart and soul into this and yeah, I felt bad because at some point, that me, I did raise my voice.

我是说，当时我冲着我们团队里最友善的一个人发火，他其实说的是很有建设性的话。

I mean, just just in response to one of the kindest guys in our team who was saying something that was actually quite constructive.

你当时压力肯定很大，毕竟你刚融了资，

And probably you were under a lot of pressure because you had now raised money

是的，

Mhmm.

而且现在真金白银摆在那儿，你觉得自己肩上担着责任，必须把事情做成。

And there's real money on the table, and you probably felt like personally, you know, this was on you to make something.

你是怎么慢慢接受这些反馈和批评的？又是怎么调整自己的做事方式的？

How did you start to take in that feedback and criticism and, I don't know, maybe change the way you operated?

我首先给约翰·利利打了电话，就是我们之前提到的那位，跟他说：嘿，

Well, I first called John Lilly who we talked about and said, hey.

出事了，我打算离开办公室几天，

Something happened and, you know, I'm I'm taking a few days away from the office.

得好好理一理思绪。

I gotta clear my head.

约翰听了就说：‘哇，好吧。’

And John's like, Woah, okay.

他知道我最近在处理我爸的事，病情越来越严重。

He knew I'd been going through stuff with my dad and that things were getting pretty tough medically.

他就去办公室跟大家聊了聊。

And he went into the office and talked with folks.

我觉得他的想法是，这事还有救。

And I think his sort of sense was, okay, this is salvageable.

别提高嗓门。

Don't raise your voice.

咱们只要把产品推出来，就能重新走上正轨。

But we just gotta get this thing shipped, and we can get this back on track.

幸运的是，差不多这个时候，你招到了一位首席工程师，叫庄本，他之前在Adobe等多家公司工作过。

And I guess, fortunately, right, right around this time, you were able to hire someone, a lead engineer named Shokuamoto, who was a guy who worked at a lot of other companies like like Adobe.

大家觉得他能帮团队稳住局面。

And and he was identified as somebody who could, I guess, kind of help steady the ship a bit?

他被认定为一个拥有独特且高度相关经验的人。

Well, he was identified as someone who had just, like, really unique experience that was relevant to what we're doing.

他刚来的时候，第一周就忍不住说：我到底加入了个什么公司？

And yeah, think he came in and week one was like, man, what company I just joined?

这儿的情况有点不对劲。

There's some weird stuff going on here.

但他很快就摸清了大家的状态，对我说：迪伦，咱们得把这东西推出来。

But very quickly he kinda got a sense of where people are at and said, Dylan, we gotta ship this thing.

咱们得弄清楚问题出在哪，为什么用户不买账。

Let's figure out what it is that's wrong, why people are not resonating with it.

但我觉得，就差几个功能了。

But my sense is there's only a few features missing.

我们早就知道，视觉上得重新设计。

We already know that we need to redesign it visually.

他在第一周结束时给团队做了一次汇报，说：你们已经这么拼命干了这么久。

And he did a presentation to the team end of week, first week about like kind of rallying cry of you all have been working so hard so long.

我们已经非常接近了。

We're really close.

接下来需要做的是这些。

Here's what's gonna take.

还差这么一点。

Here's the gap.

于是我们齐心协力干了起来。

And we rallied.

最终上线了。

We got it out.

这是2015年12月的事。

This is in December 2015.

澄清一下，你说上线了，但其实这版本是封闭的。

Just to clarify, you say you got it out, but this is in this is closed.

当时只给内测用户用的。

It was just for beta users.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我们特意写了一篇很棒的早期博客文章，制定了媒体策略，确定了发布日期，积极推广，说实话，当时争议挺大的。

We made sure that we had a really great early blog post, formed a press strategy, created a launch date, got out there, and it was controversial, honestly.

反响并不好，并不是人人都接受。

It was not well it was not universally well received.

不是的。

It was No.

不是。

No.

评价两极分化得很厉害。

It was it was very mixed reviews.

非常两极。

Very mixed.

所以我认为，而且again，当时是封闭的。

So I think and, again, it was closed.

所以并不是人人都在用它，然后给出各种评价。

So it's not like everyone's using it and giving it mixed reviews.

那些评价其实是针对人们对其潜在可能性的想象。

It was mixed reviews to the perception of what it could be.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，有些人一眼就明白了，但很多人会问：我为什么要 collaborative 地设计呢？

And, you know, there are some people that immediately got it, but a lot of people went, why would I wanna design collaboratively?

没错。

Right.

因为我觉得这根本不是一件孤军奋战的事。

Because I don't see it as a very kind of solitary thing.

这明明是我的愿景。

Like, this is my vision.

我会负责设计它。

I'm gonna design it.

你可以提一些建议，但这是我的项目。

You can maybe make some improvements, but this is my thing.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候很多设计师都来自广告公司背景，你知道的，就是去调研，给客户拿出几个方案，然后一次性亮出三个选项，最后隆重揭晓那个‘绝对该选的完美方案’。

A lot of designers at that point were coming from an agency culture where, you know, you go explore, you come up with a few solutions for the client, you present, you know, three solutions, and then you have a grand reveal of, like, here is the big amazing thing that you should obviously do.

但产品开发在团队内部不该是这么做的。

And that's just not the way that product development should work on a team internally.

相反，你需要考虑各种可能性。

Instead, you know, there's a wide range of things you consider.

得大家一起协作，慢慢把它们理清楚。

You collaboratively need to work through them.

但人们太习惯那种广告公司的工作方式了，所以刚上线时，有些评论就说，如果这就是设计的未来，那我干脆转行吧。

But people, you know, were so used to that agency method of working that, you know, some of the initial comments in the launch were stuff like, if this is the future of design, I'm changing careers.

我的意思是，当时很多早期评论都这么说，这挺有意思的，因为那是2015年。

I mean, people a lot of the early comments were like and this is interesting because this is 2015.

人们啊，其实那时候，设计是件需要协作的事，这观念还没普及。

People are people I mean, that this idea that design being a collaborative thing was not a thing necessarily.

有人评论说，骆驼就是委员会设计出来的马。

Like, one comment was was a camel is a horse designed by committee.

对。

Yep.

意思就是，要是靠一群人商量着来设计，那结果肯定差劲。

Essentially saying, like, right, if if if you design things by committee, it's gonna be it's gonna suck.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，那时候主流看法确实如此，但还是有很多人报名了等候名单。

I mean, I think that that was gonna be the the mainstream view of the design culture then, but there are also a lot of people who sign up for the wait list.

我们每周都让一批等候名单上的人进入产品，很快发现，即使功能还不完整，人们也在用。

And then we started to every week let more people off the waitlist into the product and we saw right away that people were using it even without everything we knew that they needed.

每次我们给产品增加新功能，都能看到用户从等待名单转为实际使用的转化率明显上升。

And then every time we added additional functionality to the product we saw that conversion of people going from, okay, you're off the wait list to you're actually using it, it would go up.

早期的客户有Coda、Notion、微软、优步、Mindbody这些公司。

So early customers like Coda, Notion, Microsoft, Uber, Mindbody.

有很多公司开始真正使用这个平台。

You know, there's a bunch that that started to really use the platform.

你有没有发现，人们开始用它的方式超出了你们的预期？

Did you find that people were were were starting to use this in ways that you didn't anticipate?

因为一开始，这东西是为网页设计和软件设计开发的。

Because initially, was for, right, web design, software design.

但后来，设计师和设计公司居然用它来做餐厅菜单，甚至飞机上的屏幕界面。

But eventually, you know, people would use it designers and and agencies would use it for, like, restaurant menus or, like, even the interface on a screen on the on an airplane.

这些用途是你原本就想到的，还是用户自己慢慢用出来的？

Like, did you anticipate that, or did that happen organically by by users?

很多用途都是用户自己摸索出来的。

So much happened organically.

只要是能用视觉方式呈现的东西，最后几乎都在 Figma 里被做出来了。

It was kind of like anything visual that could be created, you know, ended up being created at some point in Figma.

明白了。

Alright.

戴伦，那一年我想问问你，你当时全身心投入这个项目，努力把它推出来，但那真是艰难的一年。

Dylan, that year, I just wanna ask you because we're talking about you professionally focused on this, trying to put this out there, but this is a tough year.

你父亲病得很重。

I mean, your dad is very sick.

是啊。

Yep.

你是怎么在这么紧张的开发工作和来回探望他之间平衡的？

How are you balancing this really intensive development, but also going back and forth to see him?

对。

Yeah.

我当时尽了全力，只想陪在他身边。

I mean, I was doing everything I could to try to be there for him.

但与此同时，他真的很希望我能继续把Figma做下去。

And also at the same time, I mean, he he did really want me to be, you know, progressing Figma.

他对我们的工作特别期待。

He was really excited for what we're doing.

是的，那段时间真是来回奔波。

Yeah, it was definitely back and forth.

有些日子特别难熬，我就干脆不去办公室，直接去看他。

There were days where things were really dark and I would just not be in the office and I'd go up and see him.

当时谁也不清楚他还能撑多久。

It was unclear sort of like how long he had.

他承受着巨大的痛苦，但毕竟他一辈子都是运动员。

He was in just such immense pain but his body was, you know, he was an athlete his entire life.

他身体底子很好。

So he was a strong dude.

即使癌症已经扩散到全身，包括骨头，疼得厉害，他的身体还是硬撑着。

And even with the immense amounts of pain that comes with cancer spread everywhere including bone, He was his body was just holding on.

是啊。

And yeah.

所以那次上线了。

So that launch happened.

他看到这个成果，真的特别自豪。

You know, he was he was very proud to see it.

但没错，他不久之后就走了。

But yeah, he passed quite soon after.

他亲眼看到了你后来声名远扬的那些雏形，这太难得了。

He was able to see the beginnings of what you would go on to become very well known for, which is amazing.

与此同时，你们在全力开发这个产品。

Meantime, you guys are building this thing.

你们在2016年10月正式向公众推出，而且是免费的。

You launch it to general use in October 2016, and it was free.

对吧？

Right?

一开始是免费的。

Initially, it was free.

你们确实很想尽量一直免费下去，因为你们知道，迟早得有个盈利模式。

And and and you really wanted I think you guys wanted to keep it free as long as you because you knew eventually you had to have some business model.

对吧？

Right?

毕竟你们已经融过资了。

Because you're you know, you'd raised money.

你们完成了A轮融资。

You had a series a.

2015年12月，你们就融了1400万美元，但最终还是得想清楚怎么赚钱。

You've raised you raised $14,000,000 in that series a December in December 2015, but eventually, you had to figure out a plan.

我的意思是，你们当时是不是就这么想的：能免费多久就免费多久，但迟早得收费？

What I mean, did did you is that was that thinking that, okay.

还是说，这根本不是你们的计划？

We're gonna make this free for as long as we can, but we will eventually have to charge for it, or was was that not the plan?

我们从一开始就没打算一直免费。

We definitely were planning to charge.

但具体收多少、怎么收，我们想先看看用户是怎么用这个产品的。

But knowing what to charge, how to charge, you we wanted to kind of watch people use the product first.

而且说实话，这么长时间以来，总有人跟说产品还没准备好，我根本没觉得它真的能用。

And also, I personally, after all this time of being told it's not ready by a lot of people, I was not in the mindset of like, it's working.

对。

Right.

我脑子里想的一直都是，还有好多功能没做呢。

I just had in my head, there's so much more we gotta build.

咱们稍后回来继续。

Why don't we come back in just a moment?

Figma 的用户增长远超预期，最终被以两百亿美元收购。

Figma gains more traction than loses an acquisition worth $20,000,000,000.

请继续关注。

Stay with us.

我是盖伊·拉兹，欢迎收听《我是如何打造的》。

I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

嘿。

Hey.

欢迎继续收听《我是如何打造的》。

Welcome back to How I Built This.

我是盖伊·拉兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

时间回到2016年10月，迪伦和埃文终于把Figma向公众开放了。

So it's October 2016, and Dylan and Evan have finally released Figma to the general public.

他们还没开始收费，但很快意识到，大概该收了。

They're not charging for it yet, but they soon discover that they probably should.

你们发现微软那边有不少设计师在用这个产品。

You found out that Microsoft, they had, designers there who were who were really using it.

不过我猜公司那边说，喂。

But I guess corporate said, hey.

你不能一直免费用这个产品，因为它还不够稳定。

You can't keep using this product because it's a free product, and it's not, you know, it's not reliable enough.

如果我们真的要依赖它，那就没法放心。

We if you really, we we can't trust it.

它确实不够可靠。

It's not.

谁知道以后会怎么样。

Who knows what's gonna happen to it.

但问题在于，因为是免费的，大家就觉得它还不够成熟。

But the idea was that because it was free, it was somehow not not fully baked.

这其实给了我们一记警醒。

And and that was sort of a kick in your butt.

对吧？

Right?

你当时就想，得赶紧开始收费了，不然微软就要走了。

You thought, well, we better start charging for it or we're gonna lose Microsoft.

是的

Yeah.

微软在这件事上的处理方式其实特别靠谱。

Microsoft was actually really cool about the way they did this.

他们的一位设计负责人亲自来我们办公室，花了很长时间跟我交流。

One of their design leaders came to our office and spent some real time with me.

我当时觉得，他是在试探我们到底是不是认真的。

And he, I think was sussing out, like, is are they serious or not?

最后他跟我说，你们的工具是免费的。

And at the end he goes, you know, your tool is free.

我回答说，我知道，我们确实得先改进一些地方，才能考虑收费。

I said, I know, we gotta make some improvements I think before we pay.

他说，如果你们不尽快开始收费，我们可能不得不在微软内部把你们的工具移除，因为我们得确保你们能持续运营下去。

He goes, well, we're gonna have to probably rip it out at Microsoft if you don't charge us soon because we gotta make sure you stay in business.

这事儿真是够疯狂的，对吧。

So crazy, yeah.

那时候，我和董事会吃了一顿午饭，聊了聊。

At that point, I just had a conversation with our board where they took me out to lunch.

我觉得对他们来说，那番话挺难说的。

It was like a pretty hard conversation I think for them.

他们就说：戴伦，你得更商业化一点。

And they were just going, Dylan, you gotta be more commercial.

我问：这话什么意思？

I'm like, what does that mean?

他们还是说：你得更商业化一点。

And they're like, you gotta be more commercial.

我就问：你们是说，我得多用点销售术语之类的吗？

And I'm like, do you mean, do I have to like say more sales terminology and stuff like that?

到底你们想表达什么？

Like like, what are you getting at?

然后我

And I

我想他们的意思是给产品定价。

think what they meant was price the product.

但那时候，这个想法并没有真正传开。

And and then, you know, that didn't really break through.

直到这位设计负责人来说，除非你们给产品定价，否则我们没法用。

But when this design leader came and said, we can't use it unless you price the product.

我这才明白，大家赶紧吧，得尽快开始收费了。

I was like, oh, everyone, we gotta go charge for the product as fast as we can.

我当时确实有点迟钝，但最后还是明白了。

So I was a little dense on it, but it got there eventually.

那你们就开始收费了？

So you start charging for this.

同时，你们应该也在想办法改进产品吧。

And in meantime, you guys are presumably working on ways to make it better.

你们从2012年8月开始，到2015年12月才推出产品。

You start in the in August 2012, and you've you're shipping something out in December 2015.

那段时间可真不短。

So it's a long time.

就在那三年里，你们还没拿出任何成果的时候，你有没有感到焦虑？

Just to just for a moment, during that time, that three year period, when you didn't have anything yet to show for, were you feeling anxious?

你是不是也常常因为焦虑而失眠？

Were you feeling like did you have a lot of sleepless nights?

我觉得让我失眠更多是因为太兴奋了，满脑子都是能做出什么来。

I think the sleepless nights were more because I was just so excited about, like, what was possible to build.

至少有一次，我们走上了后来成为 Figma 的道路。

At least once we got on the track of what would become Figma.

我觉得从我们开始到决定要做一个设计工具之间，经历了不少时间。

I think between when we started and when we got to, we're gonna go build a design tool.

那段时间我整夜失眠，因为我们根本不知道自己在做什么。

That period I had sleepless nights because we didn't know what we were doing.

对。

Yeah.

但一旦我们上了正轨，验证了方向，也跟很多人聊过，了解了他们的需求，那就不会了。

But once we were on that track and we had it validated and I talked to people and I knew what they needed, no.

我的意思是，我只是脑子里转个不停，觉得能做的事情太多了。

I mean, like, it was more just my head was spinning about there's so much that's possible.

你没觉得不耐烦吗？

Weren't you getting impatient?

当然不耐烦了。

Oh yeah, for sure impatient.

我一直都着急，总想着这东西什么时候能赶紧做出来。

I mean, I've always been impatient about like how fast can we build this thing.

这本来就是我的常态。

That's just my default state.

但用‘焦虑’来形容就不对了。

But anxious is the wrong word.

我对我们的方向很有信心。

I was you know, very confident in our approach.

没人像我们这样去做这件事。

No one else was doing it the way we're doing it.

我们该怎么把它推向市场呢？

It was just like how do we get this to market?

我们该怎么让别人看到它？

How do we get this in front of people?

我们该怎么做出一个出色的产品？

And how do we build a great product?

我的意思是，从它正式上线开始，就立刻火了，这真不是夸张。

I mean, it it's it's not I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that from the time you've released it to general availability, it was a hit.

大家真的都在用它。

I mean, people really adopted it.

设计师们也开始纷纷采用它。

Designers really began to adopt it.

我能想到的类比是，虽然不算特别贴切。

I mean, the the parallel I can think of, it's not the best parallel.

有点

It's a little

就是一点点

bit it's a but a little

有点像 Instagram 或 Snap。

bit is Instagram or Snap.

我的意思是，这显然不是那种病毒式传播，因为那些东西吸引的是大众消费者。

I mean, it not obviously the same kind of virality because that appeals to just a mass consumer audience.

但对设计师来说，你之前觉得公司会雇更多设计师的直觉是对的。

But for designers, and your intuition about companies hiring more designers was was true.

事实证明确实如此。

It it it proved correct.

所以当人们开始迅速大量采用时，你是不是心里就想，没错。

So were you I mean, when when people start to adopt this pretty quickly in large numbers, were you like, yep.

我早知道会这样。

I knew it.

其实更关键的是，接下来该做什么？

Well, it's more about, like, what's the next thing to go do?

我们得确保，即使大家开始使用了，那些他们反馈的真正需求，我们还是得跟进。

How do we go and make sure that we you know, there's there's still even as people are adopting, there was a lot of things that they told us they needed.

而这些需求，恰恰正是当初让人犹豫不决、不愿采用的原因。

And those were the same things that would cause people not to adopt.

另外，我们后来发现，关于团队协作方式的那些假设，可能对小团队有效，但对大团队就不那么适用了。

And then separately, we started to see that our assumptions about the ways teams work were maybe correct for small teams, but not as correct for large teams.

对的。

Mhmm.

大团队需要不一样的方式来安排工作。

Larger teams needed different ways to, you know, organize their work.

他们还需要不同的安全机制。

They need different security things.

所以我们得同时满足这些大团队的需求。

And so we needed to meet the large the needs of these larger teams as well.

与此同时，随着你们的用户量和业务规模迅速增长——我们当然没法聊每一轮融资，但2015年是上一轮，之后2018年又融了B轮，2019年C轮估值直接到了5亿美元。

Meantime, as you started to really explode in in growth and and usage and, I mean, we're gonna can't talk about every funding round, but you do another mean, 2015 was the last round, and then there was a series b in 2018, and then a series c in 2019, which valued the company at half $1,000,000,000.

那时候你们有没有开始看到竞争对手冒出来？

Were you, I mean, did you start to see competitors come out?

到那个时候，你们肯定已经引起了像Adobe这样的大公司的注意吧？

I mean, you must have, by that point, started to attract the attention of, you know, the Adobe's of the world.

是的。

Yeah.

没有。

No.

Adobe确实推出了Adobe XD，算是他们的产品，不是网页版，而是一个功能扎实、挺有意思的桌面应用。

Literally, mean, Adobe came out with Adobe XD, which was their offering, Not web based, but a very solid and interesting desktop application.

我们还注意到另一家，说实话，当时我觉得这个更让人担心——有一家公司叫Envision，从我们起步时就存在了。

We also saw, and this is probably the one that for me felt more concerning at the time, there was a company called Envision, which had been around since we started.

Envision是2011年成立的，他们推出竞品，大概是什么时候？

Because Envision was started in 2011 and they had put out a competing product, what, by when?

我记得他们是在2017年左右宣布的。

I believe it was around 2017 was when they announced it.

但那时候他们还……

But it was And

对你来说，这确实是个真正的威胁。

that to you felt like a real threat.

我们当时很担心，因为他们已经占据了巨大的用户心智。

We were pretty worried because the mind share they had was so huge.

他们高调宣布要推出InVision Studio。

And they made this huge announcement and said, we're coming out with InVision Studio.

我记得在我们B轮融资时，尽管我们已经取得不少进展，前景也越来越明朗，还是有些风投坚持要见我们一面。

And I remember for our series b round, even with all the traction we were starting to get and how inevitable it was starting to seem, there were certain VCs that had to take the meeting.

但会议结束时，他们会说：‘你们做得真不错，我很佩服，但我实在没法忽略Envision在做的事。’

But then they go at the end of the meeting, look, Very impressed with what you've done and great job, but I just cannot reconcile this with the work Envision's doing.

抱歉，我真的没办法支持你们。

Like, I I'm sorry.

说起来，跳过一段，InVision 最终在 2024 年关闭了。

I mean, just to jump ahead, Envision eventually shut down in 2024.

他们现在已经不存在了。

They don't exist anymore.

但这件事真的挺让人惊讶的。

But it it is amazing.

对吧？

Right?

那时候，他们本可以成为 Figma 的终结者。

Because at the time, they could have been the the Figma killer.

对吧？

Right?

当时有些人就是这么预测的。

And that was the prediction by some people.

但你们当时能胜出，是因为你们早就开始做这个了。

But how did you guys you had an advantage because you've been working on it longer.

但你们有没有关注他们的动向，好确保自己一直领先？

But but were you looking at what they were doing to make sure you were staying ahead of the curve?

当然，我们看了他们的产品，也琢磨过为什么用户喜欢它。

Well, I I mean, yeah, we looked at, of course, their product and why people are resonating with it.

但归根结底，我们觉得不是那么回事。

But at the end the day, it was like, no.

我觉得我们的路线图是对的。

I think our road map is correct.

我们一直坚持做自己认为用户真正需要的功能，我觉得这才是正确的策略。

And we just continued to push ahead to the things that we thought people really needed, and I I feel like that was the right strategy.

明白了。

Alright.

所以你们就是一路往前冲，发展得很快。

So you guys are just moving forward and you're growing at a pace.

到2020年，你们完成了D轮融资，估值达到20亿美元。

And by 2020, you raise a series d at a at a $2,000,000,000 valuation.