HOKA：让-卢克·迪阿尔和尼古拉·默蒙。成为20亿美元商机的“小丑鞋”

所以你脚底下有缓冲层

So you had cushioning from

2000年有一次在西西里的熔岩地上参加耐力赛，那一次特别难忘。

There was one very important one in 2,000 during an adventure race in Sicily on lava.

所以脚感很软。

So it was soft.

对。

Yeah.

还有几次，感觉像在滑行一样

There was one a couple times, like, gliding

在雪地上。

on snow.

你就能明显感觉到，这种时候和平时一直在硬地上猛跑，完全是两回事。

And you and you see the big difference that there that that there is between when you are in those situations compared to when you are in other situations where you are just pounding out.

在穿HOKA之前，我们早就是一群狂热的跑者了。

It's a legend that we were serious enthusiastic runners before HOKA.

我们其实挺懒的，因为那太累了，每走一步都比别的事费劲多了。

We were lazy because it was so hard and one step at a time compared to anything else we would do.

明白了。

Okay.

于是你们俩就开始聊这个事儿了。

So you guys start to have this conversation.

我的意思是，你记得当时具体是怎么说的吗？

And what I mean, you what do you remember?

你是不是跟让-卢克或者尼科说：咱们不如自己做个鞋，解决这个问题？

You you said to Jean Luc or you said to Nico or said, why don't we develop why don't we try to build build a shoe that solves this problem?

你还记得当时是怎么想到这个点子的吗？

Do you remember how you came to this

我们就是特别想一起做点什么。

We we we had this desire to do something together.

我们觉得鞋类这个领域特别棒，市场大得不得了。

We had, like, a field which seemed fantastic, which is footwear because it's it's a it's a huge market.

这么长时间以来，根本没人做过这事。

Nothing really had been done for so long.

那接下来呢？

So what was the next step?

为了把事情推进下去，我们建了个设计中心，或者说研发团队，招了一些有经验的人。

Then in order to to make things happen, we started to create a design center, let's say, a development center with people coming that had some know how.

一开始，我们找了不同背景的人来讨论这个事儿，还没开始细化方案呢。

And so so we had different people, let's say, on the topic at the beginning before we start tuning the things.

明白了。

Okay.

所以，让-卢克，你当时紧张吗？

So you and and was any part of you, Jean-Luc, nervous?

你想想，你可是大公司的CEO，资源、团队、整个组织都随你调用。

I mean, you had because when you're the CEO of a big company, you've got all kinds of resources at your disposal, and you've got all kinds of people and staff and a huge organization.

但你自己 personally 面临的最大困难到底是什么？

What what what were the challenges you were facing personally to do this?

因为你得往里投钱

Because you would have to put in money

对

Mhmm.

还得搭上你的名声，突然间你得亲自打电话、接电话，这完全是另一回事了，跟我说说，那时候你是什么感觉？

And your reputation, and all of a sudden, you know, it's you're gonna be calling and picking up the phones, and, you know, it's a different it's it's so tell me a little bit about what what that was like for you.

是的

Yeah.

一方面呢，是开启一段新冒险的兴奋劲儿

So on the one side, you have the excitement of starting a new adventure.

没错

Right.

那当然

Clearly.

但另一方面你也清楚，这种冒险有八成以上的概率会失败

The the second thing is that you know that those adventures have 80% plus chances of failure.

所以你要把这一点考虑进去。

So you just take that into account.

另外一点就是，投资的时候得设好界限。

And then the other thing is to fix boundaries when it comes to the investments that you are going to do.

所以你得跟家人说清楚，你到底要投多少钱进去。

So here you need to be very clear with your family about how much you are going to to put into it.

咱们得自己掏钱。

Guys were gonna put your money.

对。

Yeah.

你可别去外面拉投资。

You were not gonna go raise money.

这是一点。

That's one thing.

没错。

No.

当然，不是所有人都相信我们俩能一起做成什么事。

And, obviously, not everyone was believing that that the two of us could do something together.

我是说，我反正信。

Who who was I mean, I would believe it.

你可是有出色履历的领头人啊。

You were the head of you were you guys had a great track record.

我们周围大多数人一开始都会问：你们真觉得这能成？

Most people around us would say, are you sure it can work?

但那也没关系。

So so but that's that's fine.

这本来就是做事情时经常遇到的反应。

That's the the usual thing that you that you face.

所以啊，想做成点什么，首先得有个靠谱的团队。

So so this is why in order to to make something, you have to have, let's say, first, a great team around you.

对。

Yeah.

所以，这是第一点。

So that was the first thing to say.

那谁能把这些想法变成现实呢？

Who are the people that can bring that to life?

但那个团队每天开销可不小，工资、房租，样样都得花钱。

But that group, which cost a lot of money every day, just you you have to pay salaries and you have to pay rent and you have to pay all of that.

所以你们是在INC租了地方？

So you rented space in INC?

然后那个地方是小办公室，带实验室、桌子，还有切割设备之类的？

And and then and was this like was it a small office with, like, labs, like, tables and and cutting equipment to cut and

没错。

to Exactly.

就是个小办公室，小工具，小玩意儿，但你知道，在鞋类行业，创新者往往也是供应商。

So small small office space, small tools, small things, I mean, to to to do things knowing that in footwear, the the the innovators are are also the suppliers.

他们提供发泡材料、各种新型材质，等等。

They are the people who are providing you with the foam formulations, with the the different materials, etcetera.

所以我们当时要做的就是去对接行业里的各路人脉。

So what we add, we add connections with a lot of people out there.

没错。

Sure.

这些人脉能帮我们初步建立起公信力，把项目撑起来——哪怕当初我们跟他们说我们的发展目标时，他们都满脸难以置信。

So so those people would give us, let's say, like, the first step of credibility to get it going, even if they had eyes like this when we showed the the where where we wanted to go.

但至少他们都松口答应支持我们了。

But at least they said, okay.

我们打算先试着做做看

We're we'll we'll give it a try.

稍事休息后回来，尼科会带着HOKA的早期款跑鞋去参加一场越野赛，到时候连他都不得不承认，这鞋看着确实挺像小丑鞋的

When we come back in just a moment, Nico takes an early version of HOKA's to a trail race, and even he has to admit, they kind of look like clown shoes.

别走开，我们马上回来

Stay with us.

我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听的是《创业史话》

I'm Guy Raj, and you're listening to how I built this.

嘿。

Hey.

欢迎回到《我是如何打造的》。

Welcome back to How I Built This.

我是盖伊·拉兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

那是2008年，让-卢克和尼科在法国阿尔卑斯山的亨内西开了间设计工作室，专门研发一种新型跑鞋。

So it's 2008, and Jean-Luc and Nico have set up a design studio in Hennessy in the French Alps to develop a new kind of running shoe.

但这个最早期的版本根本算不上一双跑鞋。

But this very first version isn't really a sneaker.

更像是一块泡沫垫，绑在鞋底用来 downhill 跑步用的。

It's more like a piece of foam that you'd strap to the bottom of your shoes for downhill running.

我们想，也许有人会开车或者坐缆车到山上，到了小镇就把装备绑上，然后直接从山顶冲下来。

We're like, maybe people will go to to to the mountains and they will drive up or they will ride the the gondola up and they will just strap their their equipment when they get to the town, and they will and they will fly down the mountains.

这简直把新运动的边界推到了极致—— downhill 跑步。

So it was pushing the envelope to the extreme of of of a new sport, which would be downhill running.

那时候他们想到了用绑带，但绑带根本行不通，因为你的脚会……

And and that's when they were this this idea of straps, but a, the straps wouldn't work because your your foot would

所以你们从来没做出过原型？

So you never made a prototype

我们确实做了一个。

of We we made Yeah.

没有。

No.

我们做了一个原型。

Made a prototype.

但那东西根本没法用。

It it it it didn't work much.

明白了。

Okay.

这鞋子从一开始就有名字了吗？还是后来才取的？

Do you have a name for the shoe from the beginning, or would that come later?

所以这个名字叫HOKA，最重要的就是想表达‘飞翔’的感觉。

So the name HOKA, most important thing is we wanted to portray flying.

我以前去过好几次新西兰。

I had been to New Zealand a few times.

HOKA应该是毛利语吧？

HOKA is a I think it's a Maori word.

对吧？

Right?

那它是什么意思？

What does it mean?

HOKA就是‘飞翔’的意思。

So HOKA is flying.

‘Ho’是大地、泥土的意思。

One one is like the element, the dirt.

‘Ka’就是飞翔、翱翔。

Flying, soaring.

在毛利语里，有好多说法可以表达这个意思。

There's many ways to to say it in in Maori.

HOKA。

HOKA.

One one。

One one.

大多数人把它理解成 HOKA One One。

Most people saw it as HOKA one one.

是的。

Yeah.

这是因为

It's because of

我们想传达的就是那种感觉。

it's it's the feeling that we wanted to describe.

对。

Right.

一切 again 都围绕着‘流畅’和‘飞翔’这个概念展开。

Everything was based once again on on the notion of flow and flying.

明白了。

Okay.

所有的一切。

Everything.

而且这跟我们当初定下的名字有关——四个字母，两个音节。

And that was linked to the fact that what we had stated was a name that would have four letters, two syllables.

HOKA。

HOKA.

没错。

Yeah.

而且……

And

我们最享受越野赛的那些地方，大多都在岛上。

the best, let's say, places where we had enjoyed the most adventure racing were on the islands.

对。

Mhmm.

所以我们想延续这种与岛屿相关的品牌定位。

And so so we wanted to take that positioning of being associated to the islands.

我们发现当时还没有任何品牌占据这个位置，市场上的定位都完全不同，而且什么都有。

We found that there was no brands associated with it, that it was completely different types of positioning, and that you had everything.

比如‘从海洋到巅峰’，或者‘从天空到大海’之类的。

Sea to Summit, let's say, in a with every kind of Sky to sea.

从天空到大海。

Sky to sea.

太棒了。

Great.

因为那时候，根据你们的背景——比如越野跑——别人可能会想到科罗拉多的博尔德。

Because at that time, you would think, given your backgrounds, you know, trail running, you might think of, like, Boulder, Colorado.

对吧？

Right?

你可能会想到那个，但你们其实是想避开那种感觉。

You might think of, that but you wanted to get away from that.

对。

Yes.

你们希望让人联想到岛屿，这挺有意思的。

You wanted to be more people to think of an island, which is interesting.

所以，你们心里肯定有一张情绪板，一直在慢慢梳理。

So, clearly, there is this kind of mood board you're kind of working working through.

咱们聊聊设计吧。

But let's talk about the design.

说说这个中底的设计理念吧。

Tell me about this idea of midsoles.

对吧？

Right?

因为我觉得中底，就是鞋的中间部分，字面意思就是‘灵魂的中间’。

Because I think midsoul, there the and it's literally the middle of the soul.

那时候，没人怎么认真考虑过中底的创新。

There hadn't really been much thought put into midsole innovation at the time.

中底现在的重要性比二十年前可高多了。

The the midsole and and it's it's it's much more true now than it was, like, twenty twenty years ago.

它就像是鞋子的引擎和核心结构。

It's the engine and and the body of the of the footwear.

你的脚就像坐在车里，中底就是车身，底下还有轮胎，负责抓地和与地面的连接。

And your foot sits inside the car, which is a midsole, and there is a tire underneath which creates a connection and the grip and the connection with the ground.

而鞋面呢，就相当于座椅和安全带。

And there is, like, a seat and a and a seat belt, which is which is the upper.

但我们当时看它，更像是滑雪板或者车轮。

But it's it's we were looking at it like it's it's a ski or it's a wheel.

它是个接口。

It's the interface.

我们通常说，它是你和地面之间的连接界面。

I mean, what the way we describe it is that it's the interface between you and the ground.

那这个界面该怎么设计呢？

How do you develop that interface?

那雪地、火山灰、落叶这些该怎么模拟呢？

How do you develop the snow or the lava ash or the leaves?

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

要软一点、滑一点、有弹性。

Something soft, glidy, bouncy.

你懂的。

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

因为我们想在这基础上做得更好。

Because we we wanted to improve on that.

但我说过，你们真正想做的，是打造一种更具广泛吸引力的产品。

But as I said, it was you you you wanted to make something that had an appeal, let's say, in a much broader way.

所以 downhill 跑步，其实是个切入点。

So downhill running was was like a a point of entry.

但从更大的角度看，我们始终在想：这能引向什么？

But from the bigger perspective, it was always to say, what where does that lead to?

毕竟，没人会只为一百英里越野赛做跑鞋。

Because you you you don't do shoes just for downhill running in 100 mile races.

那种需求，顶多就一千人左右。

That would be like 1,000 people doing it.

对。

Mhmm.

所以我们的起点，是做 rocker 设计。

So the starting point is you build rocker.

Rocker。

Rocker.

那它的形状是不是像一块石头那样？

So it's a shape like a rock.

就像摇杆的那种弧形设计

It's like a rocker

跟摇椅的底部是一个道理对吧？

like the bottom of a rocking chair.

没错，不管做什么动作都能贴合。

Because any kind of moves Exactly.

得具备

Needs to

流畅适配各种路况的能力

be fluid.

不管你在什么地形，上坡、平路还是下坡，都得适用

Whatever the way, wherever you are, let's say going up, flat, down, etcetera.

就是说当你脚后跟着地时，鞋子能像摇椅那样顺势把你往前送，带动你继续前进

That when you would you would land on your heel, and it would just propel you up like a rocking chair.

对。

Right.

那当时市场上有没有类似摇椅这样的产品？

So was there anything out there on the market like a rocking chair at the time?

有的。

Yeah.

某种程度上，MBT的造型确实有点像。

I mean, in some ways, partly the shape the the the MBT

MBT。

MBT.

我记得。

I remember.

对。

Yes.

那是个很小众的品牌。

So was a very small brand.

这鞋子就是用来走路的。

It was for walking.

对吧？

Right?

它的原理完全不一样，但同样基于不稳定性这个概念。

It's it's a very different principle, but it had this in the sense that it was built on the principle of instability.

这种不稳定性是为了帮你找到平衡，让你的身体自然摆到正确的位置。

The instability principle was here to help you, let's say, find your stability by putting your body in the right position.

说白了，这些鞋特别有创意，就像小船一样。

Essentially, just these were really innovative shoes because they were like boats.

穿在脚上，活像两只小船。

They were like like two little boats on your feet.

没错。

Exactly.

那确实是一整套设计理念。

That was that was a whole thing.

我的意思是，你当时对这一点的感知其实很重要。

I mean, but the perception that you had like this was important.

从整体来看，每个设计思路都在问：怎么用最少的能量，达到最大的效率？

And globally speaking, once again, every development mindset was how do we make the the thing that requires the least energy for the maximum amount of efficiency?

没错。

Yeah.

所以从一开始，这一点就非常明确：必须是摇摆底。

So so that's one thing that was 100% clear since the beginning.

它得是摇摆底的设计。

It had to be rocker.

所以你早就知道它得是摇摆底。

So you knew that it had to be a rocker.

行。

Okay.

所以你

So you

所以那时候你就确定要用摇杆结构了，但问题也来了：要实现这点就得用多得多的泡棉，重量也会跟着往上加。

had so now but the challenge was, in order to do that, you needed a lot more foam, and that was gonna add more weight.

那研发这项技术的难度到底有多大？

How how much of a challenge was it to develop this technology?

是这样的，如果你想要做缓震，用的中底尺寸就得是普通中底的两三倍；而且要实现出色的脚感，泡棉就得比当时行业通用的材质软得多。

Well, the if you want suspension and you're gonna you're going to use, like, a midsole that's, like, two to three times the size of a regular midsole And to have like a great cushioning, you need to go with foams which are much softer than what was the industry standard.

我们最后用的泡棉，软度差不多是行业传统用料的两倍。

And we went like pretty much twice softer than what was the tradition in the industry.

更软一点。

Softer.

就是没那么紧绷？

So less stiff?

对，更软。

Softer.

没错。

Yeah.

但越软就意味着密度越低。

But softer also means less dense.

所以轻多了。

So much lighter.

明白了。

Okay.

所以，要实现这一点，难点在于找到敢生产这种材料的合作伙伴。

So so the challenge into getting that was to find the partners that would dare making that.

因为这东西以前没人做过。

Because that had never been made.

确实没人做过。

It had it had not

对。

been made.

是因为不实用吗？

Because it was not practical?

当时没人觉得这玩意儿……

It wasn't seen as, like

这根本不是行业标准。

It was not industry standard.

因为那时候所有鞋都是低帮的，要想在低帮设计里提供足够的支撑，就得用硬一点的材料。

Because all the all the shoes were low profile, and in order to give you the the the resistance also in a low profile, you had to have a given stiffness.

所以当时用的都是硬泡沫。

So it was a stiffer foam.

没人敢做软的。

Nobody was making it softer.

对。

No.

但其实技术上是能做到的，真的可以做出来。

But the technology was I mean, the the it it was possible to make it.

当然可以。

Absolutely.

理论上能做，但没人真去试过。

It was possible, but it was it had not been done.

所以你得去找愿意生产的合作伙伴，毕竟大家都担心这玩意儿撑不住，容易自己毁了自己。

So so you still had to find the partners, the supplier partners that would make it because because everyone was concerned that it that it could not work because it would destroy itself too easily or it would it would

说白了，你也不确定这玩意儿能不能成。

I mean, you weren't sure it was going to work.

对。

Yes.

我们真没把握。

We we were not sure.

当然，我们心里也没底。

Of course, we were not sure.

我们不确定它能不能稳住，但为了让它稳，我们可是下了血本。

But we we were not sure it was gonna be stable, but we did, like, so much to make it stable.

我们把脚掌死死地压进中底里头。

We we put the foot, like, really down inside the midsole.

我们把鞋底做得特别宽。

We went very wide.

为了确保稳定，我们什么都试了。

So we did anything we could to make sure it's stable.

我想澄清一下，毕竟这主要是个音频节目。

And I wanna clarify this point because, of course, this is an audio program mainly.

普通跑鞋里，你的脚是踩在缓震层上面的。

When normal shoes that you run-in, your your foot is on top of the cushioning.

但这款不一样，缓震材料是把你的脚整个包起来的。

This was different because the cushioning actually surrounded your foot.

你其实是陷在鞋里面的。

You're you were actually inside.

对。

Yeah.

缓震层虽然还在底下，但我们主要是想做出一个像赛车座椅那样的包裹感。

Like a the cushioning still below you, but most of you wanted to make a bucket seat

对。

Right.

那就会把你整个包起来。

That would that would surround you.

他们花了多久才搞定这种泡沫的制作方法？

How long did it take for the for them to figure out how to make this foam?

哪种泡沫？

How to make what

你指的是那种？

you need?

泡沫早就有了。

The foam existed already.

他们只是用了个大得多的模具而已。

They just, like they just put in a much bigger mold.

嗯，没错。

Uh-huh.

要软得多，大概软35%左右。

Something much softer, about 35% softer.

那花了多长时间？

And how long did it take?

三个月。

Three months.

也没多花多少时间。

It didn't take much more.

我的意思是，就是三个月。

I mean, Three months.

我们花了三个月左右，才搞出个能摸得着的成品来。

It took for us three months, let's say, to have something that was that was, like, tangible.

你们是跟中国的工厂合作吧？他们能生产这个，但你得说服他们。

So you're working with so there are factories in China that are making this but you have to convince them.

这事儿……难不难？

Was it was it I mean Hard.

那难在哪呢？

Why was it hard?

因为我们当时完全没名气啊。

Because we were not existing.

我们就像个毫无行业背景的小客户，一无所有，却要提出一堆前所未有的、创新性的复杂需求。

We were like a a micro customer with no background, nothing, asking for very innovative complaint complicated things that had never been done.

而且我们当时还没法立刻给工厂下订单。

And and and we didn't have orders to place immediately.

但你们肯定得先做个原型出来

But you you wanted a prototype.

原型是必需品

You need a prototype.

一般来说，这些工厂都得先拿到订单才肯帮你做原型

And usually, these places need an order in order to do a prototype.

只有当你已经有成熟的商业模式了，他们才愿意跟你合作

They work with you when you have already a business case that is established.

我们没有那些，全靠人情，一遍遍求他们：能不能试一试？

We didn't have that, so it was all based on relationship in saying, please, let's make a try.

研发主管特别厉害，硬是靠CAD设计说服了工厂。

The the head of r and d, and he worked some amazing magic to do, like, the CAD design, to go convince the factories.

他跟那些厂子合作好多年了。

He had worked with them for for many years.

我们跟他们关系特别铁，他们真的愿意帮我们试。

We had a very special relationship, and and they and they tried.

那第一批原型机到手后，你们干嘛了？

So when you got those first prototypes, what did you do?

我猜你们立马就去跑测试了吧？

I'm assuming you ran and you wanted to run-in them.

我们是2009年2月拿到的。

We got got them in February 2009.

我们在熟悉的赛道上一跑，效果简直太惊艳了，当场就出来了。

We, in ANSI, we went on a trail that we knew, and it was like a spectacular, like, immediately.

什么？

What?

第一批原型？

The first prototypes?

半小时。

Half hour.

前十五分钟，我们仨来回跑，冲下去再走上来，又冲下去，简直喊得嗓子都哑了。

The first fifteen minutes, the the three of us, so I ran down and walked back up and ran down again, and we were, like, basically screaming.

太轻松了。

It was so easy.

到了某个点你就得松刹车，用大腿发力——就像我们之前说的，速度得更快。

It's a point where you have to stop braking and use your quads, like we described earlier, was at a higher speed.

就在第一天，我们第一次感受到那种飞起来的感觉，那种彻底放松的感觉，只要动动手臂，完全不用操心地形，跟骑山地车完全不一样。

And and and it was, like, the very, very first day we saw this sensation of flying, this sensation of letting go, just moving your arms and not worry about the terrain like on a mountain bike.

大概二十到三十分钟后，我们顺手换上了平时穿的竞品鞋。

The next thing we did, like, probably twenty or thirty minutes later is because we, of course, had, like, competitor shoes in our our current footwear.

我们当时还搞了个计时。

We got, like, the the some some timing.

有时候吧。

Sometimes.

我的意思是，我们开始给自己计时了。

I mean, we started timing ourselves.

结果就差十秒就到一分钟。

And we were, like, ten seconds off of a minute.

不过说清楚啊，这些原型鞋底其实是有纹路的。

And and just just to be clear, these prototypes had tread on the bottom as well.

没纹路。

No tread.

对。

Right.

没事，那时候地面是干的。

It's okay because it was dry.

地面是干的。

It was dry.

没湿。

It wasn't it wasn't wet.

其实也不算太好。

It wasn't really okay.

因为鞋底太软了，HOKA的鞋一直这样。

And because it was so soft, and and it's always been the case with the with the HOKA shoes.

鞋底太软，泡沫就会自己贴着地上的障碍物变形。

Because it was so soft, they they also the foam conforms itself to the to the obstacles.

这应该是2009年2月的事。

This is in, I think, February 2009.

对。

Mhmm.

先拿这些。

Get these first.

对。

Yes.

那年五月，你又参加了勃朗峰越野赛。

May of that year, you once again run the Mont Blanc race.

这应该是你第二次或第三次跑这个比赛了吧？

This is, I think, the second, third time you're gonna run the race?

五月的时候，我穿着这些原型鞋，在靠近我父母家的昆泰尔跑了一场赛。

So in May, we had, like, with these prototypes, I did a race in the close to my parents' house in Quental, and I I raced in it.

我就穿着它跑完了。

I raced in them.

这可不是夏蒙尼马拉松。

And this is not a this is the Chamonix marathon.

后来到了六月，我就跑了夏蒙尼马拉松。

And then but so there was this one, and then, like, at by the June, I raced the Chamonix marathon.

第二轮原型鞋出来后，我好像拿了第五名。

With the second round of prototypes, I think I came in fifth.

那咱们就聊聊这个吧。

And and so so let's just talk about this.

所以现在你打算穿自己做的鞋跑马拉松了，是吧？

So now you you are because you're gonna use your own shoes

是的。

Yeah.

跑马拉松就穿这个。

For marathons.

这两个比赛，是公路马拉松还是越野马拉松？

And and were both of these was were they road marathons or were they trail marathons?

不是公路的。

No.

这是个越野赛，爬升2200米，下降1600米。

It's a trail marathon with 2,200 meters of elevation up and 1,600 meters down.

那场面简直笑死人了，因为所有人都还穿着当时那种普通跑鞋。

And that was that was hysterical because everybody had, of course, a regular footwear from that time.

我一开跑，前面就有一群特别专业的跑者。

And so I I I start the race, and there's a leading pack with a lot of serious serious runners.

他们都穿着特别轻便的鞋，而我呢，脚上蹬着一双大得像小丑鞋一样的鞋子。

And and they all have their their very minimal footwear, footwear, and I'm here with my gigantic, like, clown shoes.

有些人认识我，所以没明着笑话我，但心里肯定都在想：这人也太奇怪了吧。

I mean, some of the people knew me, so we're not, like, making fun of me, but they were like, that is so weird, and that is so strange.

结果呢，这是我唯一一次参加这个比赛，居然拿了第五名。

And then and then, yeah, I came the only time I've done this race, and I came in fifth.

是啊。

Yeah.

说真的，这事儿太不可思议了。

I mean, it's so so yeah.

顺便说一句，这事儿发生在2009年。

Just to on this point, I mean, you are this is 2009.

对。

Mhmm.

你穿的鞋跟别人的完全不一样。

You are in shoes that are completely different.

谁会穿着这种大厚底、还像摇椅一样的鞋去跑步啊？

Nobody would be running a race in a shoe with a giant sole that's shaped like a rocker.

就像……

Like

除了我，估计没人敢穿这玩意儿跑步，太丢人了。

And and anyone else who would be running who would be willing to run-in them would be too embarrassed to wear them besides probably me and

觉得丢人是因为这鞋看起来像小丑鞋。

Embarrassed because they look like clown shoes.

没错。

Yes.

大家都觉得这鞋太怪了。

The people thought they were so weird.

那天那鞋还是橙蓝配色的。

And they were orange and blue that day.

好吧。

Okay.

所以你跑那些比赛的时候，咱们之前聊过，2007年让·吕克看到你的时候，你腿都撑不住了，那现在呢？

So so when you ran these races, I mean, we talked about the race that that Jean Luc was you know, saw you in in 2007 and your legs collapsed.

你现在感觉怎么样？

To what to what's your experience now?

跟以前不一样了吗？

Is it different?

是的。

Yes.

我是说，最后一段我是在一段猛下坡之后才开始的，状态好多了。

I mean, I I started the the last part of the race after a very strong downhill, much more fresh.

对。

Yes.

最后三分之一的路程里，我超了不少人。

And caught a lot of people in the last third of the race.

你那时候比赛到一半排在第二十名左右？

You were, like, twentieth mid race?

对。

Yeah.

大概是吧。

Probably.

那最后你跑到了第四名？

And you ended the race number four?

第五名。

Five.

第五名。

Five.

是的。

Yeah.

你的身体怎么样？关节、膝盖、大腿肌肉这些？

I mean, what about your body, your joints, your your knees, your your quads?

你觉得身体状态上有明显区别吗？

Was there a marked difference in how you felt?

有。

Yes.

对啊。

Mhmm.

当然有。

Yes.

我的感觉特别明显，尤其是在比赛后三分之一和恢复期，因为一周后我就又去参赛了，还赢了那个叫‘山地院’的比赛。

I mean, I both in the last third of the race and in the recovery because I could race one week later and and and win something called the mountain mountain yard.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是我们第一次在HOKAZ夺冠。

It was our first ever victory in the HOKAZ.

我压根没想到七天后还能再跑一次，那次海拔爬升足足有三千米呢。

I would have never thought I could do I could go back and do another I think it was 3,000 meters of elevation, like, seven days later.

原来如此。

Okay.

看来你确实有了不错的收获。

So you have something.

那聊到这儿，我猜你已经开始筹备定制自己的第一双专业跑鞋了吧？

I mean, at this point, I'm assuming you're starting to put in orders for your first shoe.

不过在聊这个话题之前，先打住。

But be before we get there No.

我们目前还没有...

We we don't we don't have

相关的量产订单

orders at that.

那个阶段我们还只是在测试原型产品

At that stage, we are just testing prototypes.

明白

Okay.

原本计划是打算在2010年推出的。

And the plan was initially to launch at the '10.

咱们先就这个聊一会儿。

Now let's let's just talk about this for a moment.

到现在为止，你是觉得这产品只适合一小部分人，还是从一开始就想做大的？

At this point, are you thinking this is really gonna be a brand, a product for a small segment of people, or did were you thinking big?

这玩意儿本来可以只是个噱头。

Like, this can be for no.

你从一开始就想做大的？

You were already thinking big?

是的。

Yeah.

根据我们的经验，只要人们试过一次，就再也回不去了。

Based on our experience, we we thought when once people experience that, they would never be able to go back.

那你是怎么想的？这本来完全可以是个新奇玩意儿啊。

So how did you I mean, this could have just been a novelty kind of thing.

你们是怎么说服第一个零售商冒险卖这些鞋的？

How did you convince a re the first retailer to take a chance on these shoes?

靠试穿体验。

Testing.

任何新奇、独特、创新的东西，都得让人亲自体验过才行。

Everything you bring new and different and innovative always has to go through people doing the experience by their self.

对啊。

Right.

因为第一反应永远都是：不行。

Because the first the first thing is always, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

这事儿看着傻，除非你亲自试试。

This is stupid until you try.

就是不停地试，不停地试。

So trying, trying, trying.

得让别人去体验一下。

Make people try.

稍后回来，创始人开始面临新问题——供应链、竞争、现金流，他们这才明白，外部投资其实帮不了他们多少。

When we come back in just a moment, the founders start facing new problems, supply chain, competition, cash flow, and they realize that outside investment won't really help them.

他们真正需要的，是更大的东西。

They actually need something bigger.

请继续关注。

Stay with us.

我是盖伊·拉兹，欢迎收听《我是如何打造这一切的》。

I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

嘿。

Hey.

欢迎回到《我是如何建造的》。

Welcome back to How I Built This.

我是盖·雷兹。

I'm Guy Raz.

大概在2009到2010年左右，尼科和让-卢克开始带着HOKA去参加各种展会，想尽办法让跑者试穿。

So it's around 2009, 2010, and Nico and Jean Luc are starting to take HOKA's to trade shows where they're doing everything they can to get runners to try them.

我们把石头扔在地上，跟人说：你先光脚跑过这些石头。

We dropped rocks on the ground so that to say people, just run on those on those rocks.

然后回到你的鞋子里，再跑一遍这些石头。

Now get back to your shoe and run on those rocks again.

接着，你再跑一趟，去那边，然后回来。

And then then now go go there and and come back.

我觉得，归根结底，是那种缓冲设计让越来越多普通人觉得这鞋舒服。

I I I think ultimately, let's say, the the cushioning made it appealing to a wider group of people, just just generally speaking.

我们以前总强调一点：消费者是怎么一步步挑中这个产品的。

What what we what we used to present always, the thing is is the way you you proceed as a consumer to picking the product.

在远处看，你就觉得这鞋有点特别。

So at distance, you see something special.

拿在手里，你就想体验第二个惊喜。

Then you take it in hand, and you want the second wow effect.

第二个惊喜就是——它特别轻。

Second wow effect being it's light.

我本来以为会很重呢。

I was expecting something heavy.

真的超轻的。

It's super light.

接着是第三个惊喜：穿上脚的那一刻，立马感觉特别护脚。

Then you get into the next wow, which is I put it on, and it feels immediately, let's say, protective.

对。

Mhmm.

然后一跑起来，感觉特别轻松、护脚，还特别稳。

And then I start to run, and it feels very easy and protective and stable.

明白了。

Got it.

这正是我们一直想做到的。

So it's that's that's the thing that we wanted to do all the time.

在你们正式推出这款鞋之前，我听说很多人跟你说，这根本行不通。

I mean, before you released the shoes for commercial purposes, I read that lots of people were saying to you, this is just not gonna work.

你一遍又一遍地听到这种说法，听起来好像在证实你的想法根本行不通。

This is but you were hearing this repeatedly again and again from a lot of people, which which sounds like it could be validation that your idea was not working.

我觉得大概98%的人都这么说。

I I would say 98% of the people were saying

就是这事儿。

this.

都说这东西做不起来。

Said this is not gonna work.

但最大的挑战其实是我们的销售团队，他们被一遍又一遍地泼冷水。

But the biggest challenge was actually for our salespeople because our salespeople being being pushed back and pushed back and pushed back and pushed back.

而且我们当时有代理商。

And and you had we had agents.

有些人靠这个吃饭，全靠它养家糊口。

We had people that for them, they they had to to to make a living out of it.

所以要让他们一直保持干劲，真的特别难。

So that was very, very tough for them to keep them motivated.

是的。

Uh-huh.

但特别关键的是，得让几个运动员穿上鞋子去跑一跑。

But what was extremely important and happened like is to get a couple of the athletes try their shoes.

对。

Mhmm.

因为当你推出一个看起来怪、穿起来也怪的东西时，如果不马上用比赛成绩来证明它不是噱头，大家就会觉得是忽悠。

Because when you have something weird, which feels weird and looks weird, if you don't want it to be perceived as a gimmick, you need performance in racing validation, like, almost immediately.

我们有个法国人叫吕多维克·波迈，还有美国的卡尔·梅尔策，他们几乎是一上脚就立刻用上了，当天就穿上去跑了。

And we had one guy in France, Ludovic Pomai and Karl Melzer in in The US, who also did the same experience and adopted the shoes, like, almost immediately, like, on the on the on the very first day.

卡尔·梅尔策，我记得他原本被另一个鞋品牌赞助，但他直接甩了那个品牌，真的。

Carl Meltzer was I think he was sponsored by another shoe brand, and he dropped that brand Yes.

他转而穿这双鞋跑步，毕竟他住在美国嘛。

To run because he had tried them in his well, I mean, he was living in The US.

他一开始就是在小区里跑跑试试。

He tried them in in neighborhood runs.

后来美国其他不少人，尤其是……

And then other people in The US and notably

讨厌死了。

Hate it.

对啊。

Yeah.

比如在那种崎岖的山地赛道上，效果简直绝了，有个叫黛安·芬克尔的女士买了这双鞋。

With the with the hard rock, for example, it was phenomenal because that woman, Diane Finkel, bought the shoes.

跑了大概十五英里，或者二十英里左右吧，她就冲到领先位置了。

And after something like 15 miles or something like that or 20 miles maybe, she took the lead of the race.

她就这样超过了所有男性选手。

So she took the lead ahead of all the males.

对啊。

Mhmm.

她一直保持领先，直到大概第90英里吧。

And she stayed in the lead until mile 90, I think.

天哪。

Wow.

最后她拿了第二名。

And she finished second.

这以前可从来没发生过。

So that had never been done before.

当时我们在意大利也有不少人。

And we had people in Italy.

于是就这么靠口碑传开了。

And and so so word-of-mouth.

所以是靠口口相传，

It was So the word-of-mouth

慢慢就传开了，那些人我们根本都不认识。

started to spread, and those people we didn't know about.

我们后来才知道，但完全不知道到底是谁在穿这双鞋。

We we we learned about it, but we had no idea who was who was using the shoes.

明白了。

Okay.

到了2010年，你发现越来越多跑者都在穿这双鞋了。

So 2010, I mean, you're getting all of these runners using the shoes.

跑者圈子里的反馈也越来越多，全是肯定。

You're getting all this validation from the runners from this community.

从外面看，一切好像都顺风顺水。

Sounds from the outside like things are going great.

但你们当时遇到的最大困难是什么？

What are the challenges you're facing?

第一个大难题是生产能力的问题。

The the the first big one was the industrial challenge.

我们只被分配到一些零散的生产窗口期。

We we were given only some windows of production.

别人说，‘我这周刚好有空能帮你做鞋’，因为他们根本不给我们一个稳定的生产计划。

So so people saying, I I have capacity that week to make to make your shows because they wouldn't give us, let's say, a classical plan.

我们只能硬着头皮这么干。

So so we had to do with that.

然后还得把货发到各地，运费贵得离谱。

And then and then ship those goods, let's say, to wherever it needed to be shipped at costs that were then then incredibly expensive.

还有现金流的问题——我们刚有点起色，刚卖出去一点，手头有点钱，下一单的需求立马翻倍。

Then there was the cash flow part because as soon as we we started to move a little bit ahead, then the so you you you sold something, then you you you had some a little bit of cash, then the next order was like twice bigger than the first one.

现金流就这么一路飙升。

So then your your cash flow went like this.

可银行死活不跟进，说这风险太高了。

And the banks would not follow because they said that's too risky.

我的意思是，它长得太快了，规模太大了。

I mean, it's it's it's growing it's growing too big, too fast.

你需要一百，就得垫一百，还得担保一百。

And if you need 100, you have to put 100 and guarantee also 100.

当时就是这种玩法。

Those were the dynamics.

所以我们一直觉得，咱们手里的东西挺特别的。

So we were kind of confident that we had something special.

但真要落地，说起来容易，做起来难，供应链那块儿复杂得要命。

But to make it happen truly, we we we were not let's say, it was not an easy sell, and it was really a very complicated supply chain aspect.

你们当时怎么应对资金问题的？

How were you dealing with the cash situation?

我的意思是，这些订单你得先掏钱吧？

How did you I mean, did you you you have to pay for the these orders.

你现在说的可是几十万双鞋啊。

Now you're talking about hundreds of thousands of shoes.

那这笔钱你从哪儿来？

How are you gonna pay for that?

用我们自己的钱。

Our money.

对。

Yeah.

全部都得靠我们自己。

All money.

没错。

Yeah.

很多公司就是这么垮掉的。

This is what kills a lot of businesses.

你要是增长太快，跟不上节奏，资金根本撑不住，最后就崩了。

When you gross you're growing too fast, you can't keep up, and you've gotta and you've gotta you basically can't finance it, and it collapses.

你们就没想过找外部融资吗？

Was there any possibility that you could have raised money?

那时候在法国，有那种能从风投或投资人那儿筹到钱的文化吗？

Was there culture was there a culture of being able to raise money from venture or investors in France at the time?

有人主动找上门来说：我想投资。

There were people that were knocking at the door to say, I I'm Wanna invest.

很乐意投，毕竟在法国不像在美国那么好筹钱。

Happy to to invest into it, knowing that in France, it's not as easy as it is in The US.

但我们一开始就谈好了：就算多拿点钱，也解决不了根本问题，因为我们面临的供应链挑战，光靠钱是搞不定的。

But but the thing is that was that we discussed upfront was if we just have additional money, it's not going to bring much more because the challenge we face from a supply chain standpoint is not going to help.

再说第二点，我们得让人真去试用产品。

And the second thing is that we we need to have people try the products.

所有营销都绕不开这一点。

Everything in marketing.

营销里唯一真正重要的事，就是得跑遍各地，让人亲自试用，而这得靠人手。

There is only one thing in marketing that we have to do, that you have to go to a multitude of places and make people try, and that requires manpower.

可这些，投资人可给不了你。

And that's not what you get from any investor.

所以澄清一下，当时想上这些生产线真的很难，因为它们本来就在给其他品牌做鞋。

So just to just to clarify, you the challenges the supply chain challenges that to get on these production lines was very hard because they're already making shoes for other companies.

对吧？

Right?

你这么个小品牌想挤进去，本身就够难的。

And so to get in there with your tiny little brand, that's a challenge.

融资是挑战，但更难的是让别人知道你——你们就五到七个人，资源太有限了。

To finance it is a challenge, but then to get people to be aware of it is another challenge because you have a you're a company of five, seven people.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

Exactly。

Exactly.

而且在2010年夏天，大概七月份，我们刚发了三千双鞋，就知道得加速了，因为有点慌——有些渠道已经开始发货了，尤其是那几个大客户。

And and you also, like, in in the 2010, very early summer, like around this month of July after we had delivered, like, about 3,000 pairs of shoes, we we knew that we need to accelerate because there was nervousness because some shoes were getting shipped, especially by a couple of our accounts.

他们从竞争对手那儿接到了订单。

They were getting orders from competitors.

你这话什么意思？

What do you mean?

对啊。

Yes.

我们自己也收到了订单。

We were getting orders.

是有人在买我们的鞋，十九双。

Buying our shoes, 19.

你的竞争对手在买你的鞋。

Your competitors were buying your shoes.

没错。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

所以

So

你开始收到消息，说那些大公司买走我们的鞋，就是为了拆开研究。

you started to get intel that your the big players were taking your shoes to take them apart, basically.

你们能申请专利吗？

Can you patent?

我的意思是，你们可以给设计申请专利。

I mean, you can patent the design.

我们确实申请了。

We did.

专利这事儿，归根结底看谁钱多。

Patents are are always a matter of who has the biggest amount of money.

对。

Right.

打官司嘛。

To fight the lawsuit.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，你还得考虑另一个非常关键的因素。

And and meanwhile, there's another really important factor you have to consider.

对吧？

Right?

因为要想做成一个成功的跑鞋品牌，你必须扎根美国，毕竟这儿才有钱，才有客户。

Because in order to build a successful running shoe brand, it it you have to be in The US because this is where the money is and where the customers are.

对吧？

Right?

那时候，大概就是2012年吧。

And and, I mean, at this point, this is, like, 2012.

当时在美国，可能就那么几家专业跑鞋店在卖你的鞋。

I think only a a a few specialty running stores are selling your shoes in The US.

没错。

Yeah.