克林特·本特利与格雷格·奎达：《火车梦》如何搬上银幕 | 我的创作之道

推出来。

out.

你知道的，把它推出来。

You know, push it out.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我就是这样，我就是，来吧。

So I'm exactly like, I'm I'm I'm like, come on.

这是这个想法。

Here's here's here's the idea.

我们干吧。

Let's do it.

我们拍吧。

Let's shoot it.

来吧。

Come on.

我们走吧。

Let's go.

然后我和一位名叫汤米的创意总监合作，他跟你一样，总说：伙计，我们必须推进。

And then I work with a creative director named Tommy, who's just like you, who's like, dude, we gotta push.

我们得，汤米，停下吧。

We gotta Tom, stop it.

我们必须推进。

We gotta push.

我们必须推进。

We gotta push.

他有着惊人的耐心。

And he just has this unbelievable patience.

然后到了最后，你会说：真该死。

And then you get to the end, you're like, dang it.

你对这一点说得太对了。

You are so right about this.

就像，

Like,

是的。

Yeah.

这种刻意的耐心，不断追求更好、更好、更好、更好。

This sort of deliberate patience, and to insist on better and better and better and better.

我需要一个伙伴来做到这一点。

It's I need a partner to do that.

我一个人做不到。

I can't do that on my own.

另一方面，我从来没想过，我最初是作为一名小说作家开始的，非常着迷于纸上的文字、文字的音韵，以及段落该如何断开之类的事情。

Well, and the thing on the flip side, like, I never thought about I studied I started as a, like, a fiction writer studying that and and being very enamored with the words on the page and the sound of the words and and where do you break a paragraph and things like that.

你该怎么决定从一个段落转到下一个段落？

How do you how do you break to the next paragraph?

直到我遇到格雷格，我才意识到，你到底是在讲一个故事吗？

What I never thought of until I met Greg was, like, are you telling a story or not?

你知道的吧？

You know?

这种更结构性的东西，现在我认为才是基础要素，而其他的一切都是如何将它传达出去的方式。

And this very, like this more structural thing that now, I think, is, like, actually the foundational element, and the rest is is how how you're getting that out there.

但那种东西，不管是什么，能把列车的梦、歌唱与洞穴壁画，或者来自远古时代的口头诗歌联系起来，你知道吗？你究竟想传达的是什么？

But that thing that just, like, whatever it is that connects train dreams to sing sing to a cave painting or or an oral poem, you know, from, like, a like, from from ancient times of, like, what is that thing that you're trying to communicate?

所有有趣的部分，比如如何拍摄这个镜头，这个剪辑如何让我们从这个镜头过渡到下一个，哦，我们之前用一个画面埋下这个想法，是不是很美？

There's all the fun stuff, which is how and how do we get that shot and how does this edit, like, get us from this shot to the next and, oh, wasn't that, like, beautiful that we seeded this idea earlier with an image?

太棒了。

Oh, that's great.

但回到那个基础要素，我从格雷格那里深刻学到的是讲故事，你知道的，然后一切由此自然展开。

But getting back to that foundational element, that's what I learned very deeply from Greg was, like, telling a story, you know, and then and then it all kind of coming out from there.

这个故事可以简单到只是一个人开出租车，最后渐渐疯了。

And that story can be, like, as simple as a guy's driving a taxi and eventually kinda goes nuts.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

所以我们是在讨论如何完成你的写作？

So we're talking about how do you get your writing done?

如果你在思考工作以及如何在工作中提高效率，我推荐一个叫Base Camp的工具。

And if you're thinking about work and how you can be more productive there, well, I recommend a tool called Base Camp.

Base Camp是一个项目管理工具，它和其他工具不同，那些工具嘈杂、混乱。

Base Camp is a project management tool, and it's different from the other ones, which are loud and noisy and cluttered.

它们功能过剩。

They're feature bloat.

Base Camp说：不。

Base Camp says, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们要保持简洁，这样你就能专注于真正重要的事情，也就是把工作完成，你知道的？

We're gonna keep things simple so that you can focus on what actually matters, which is just getting the work done, you know?

对我们来说，Basecamp 是一个地方，我们可以在这里追踪与写作相关的所有事项：什么时候录制节目、在哪里录制、发布日期等等，所有这些信息都集中在一个地方，供整个团队查看。

Now for us, Basecamp is a place where we can track what we're doing with how I write, when episodes are being recorded, where we're recording them, the publishing day, all those sorts of things in one place for an entire team to look at.

我曾邀请 Basecamp 的创始人杰森·弗里德做客节目，我注意到他非常重视写作。

And I had the founder of Basecamp, Jason Fried, he came on the show, and I noticed that he really cares about writing.

他重视宣言。

He cares about manifestos.

他重视优秀的文案。

He cares about great copy.

他注重讲好一个故事。

He cares about telling a great story.

他和联合创始人一共写了五本书。

And him and his co founder, they've written five books.

我可以告诉你，他们在写书时投入的用心和细致程度，与他们做软件时一模一样。

And I can tell you that they bring the same care and attention to detail to their books as they do their software.

所以，如果你在思考工作，想知道如何才能更高效？

So if you're thinking about work and you're asking, Hey, how can I be more productive?

如何让团队更团结？

How can I make my team more cohesive?

那我推荐你使用Basecamp。

Well, I recommend Basecamp.

好的。

Alright.

回到本期节目。

Back to the episode.

你知道吗，我觉得如果你统计一下各种剧本的字数，《梦之 train》在字数上会远远落在左边，因为这部电影里的台词并不多。

You know, my sense is if you looked at the number of words in various screenplays, train dreams would be all the way to the left side in terms of there's not that many words in the film.

但偶尔也会有一些时刻，你真的想表达些什么。

But then there are these moments when you really try to say something.

对吧？

Right?

比如，电影里那个站在讲坛上的牧师那句台词是什么？

Like, what's the preacher in the pulpit line laid in the movie?

一个像牧师一样隐居在树林里的人？

A hermit in the woods like a preacher?

这个世界需要一个隐居在树林里的人，就像需要一个站在讲坛上的牧师一样。

The world needs a hermit in the woods as much as a preacher the pulpit.

是的。

Yeah.

就像，你听到那句话了。

Like, you hear that.

好的。

Okay.

砰。

Boom.

但这个真的深深印在了心里

But this one really stuck with so

这是直接来自丹尼斯·约翰逊的话。

that's from straight from the words of Dennis Johnson.

我觉得这个也是。

And I think this one is too.

你告诉我吧。

You'll let me know.

这个世界是精心编织在一起的。

This world is intricately stitched together.

明白了吗，伙计们。

Get it, boys.

我们每拉动一根线，都不清楚它会如何影响整体的结构。

Every thread we pull, we know not how it affects the design of things.

我们这些地球上的人，就像从摩天轮上拧下螺栓，却自以为是神明。

We're about children on this earth, pulling bolts out of the Ferris wheel, thinking ourselves to be gods.

那是克林特。

That's Clint.

你写的吗？

You wrote that?

当然了，老兄。

Hell yeah, dude.

就是这样。

There we go.

但我觉得，这正是赢得可信度的一部分。

But that that's, like, that's part of that earning the credibility thing, I think.

一方面，他是个极其出色的作家；另一方面，你完全融入了那种精髓，以至于你根本分不清哪些是丹尼斯的话，哪些是克林特的话。

You like, one, he's such a brilliant writer, but two, you're just so deeply channeled into the essence, you know, that you wouldn't necessarily know the difference between Dennis and and Clint's words.

这就是我们努力追求的理念，这在《Jockey》中是个很重要的点。

And that's the that's the idea that that, like, even in our work that we're trying to get to this was a big thing on Jockey.

我认为这对格雷格在《Sing Sing》中的创作也很重要，那就是写作中投入了大量用心。

This is a big thing, I think, for Greg as well on Sing Sing, is there's a lot of care put into the writing.

而且要写出这样的台词，比如，你知道的，我们反复修改了45次才定下来。

And and making a like, having a line like that, like, you know, that took 45 times of, like, going through that.

如果他们正在拆卸什么东西的螺栓，那时候他们会说什么样的机器，既合理，又对我们有共鸣？

What kind of if they're pulling bolts out of something, what kind of machine would they say at that time that would make sense but also kinda make sense for us?

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

像这样的小细节。

Little stuff like that.

或者，你用什么隐喻来传达我们这种感觉——我们就是一群傻瓜，面对一个完全不懂如何运作的系统，却只想：干脆把这条河拉直，再修个水坝好了？

Or what metaphor do you use to to get across this sense of, like, what we are, which is a bunch of idiots having this, like, this this system that we have no idea how it works, and we're just like, why don't we just straighten out this river and put a dam in it?

谁知道会发生什么？

Who knows what'll happen?

你知道吗，你怎么找到一个隐喻，不会让人觉得乔尔的角色格里纳根本不可能说出那种话？

You know, like and so how do you find a metaphor that aren't peoples would say that Joel Joel's character, Grineer, would never be able to say that?

对。

Right.

他根本不可能说出那样的句子，或者甚至产生那样的想法。

He would never be able to construct that sentence or that maybe would have the idea.

但所有这些想说的是，这部电影里还有很多其他事情，人们以为我们做了很多即兴发挥。

But, like, all that to say, like, this trying to get to this place where there have been other things about the film that people think there's a lot of improv that we that we do.

很多时候，我们确实会把整个场景推翻重来。

And a lot of times, we'll, at times, throw the scene out.

什么

What do

即兴发挥是什么意思？

mean improv?

你所说的即兴表演是什么意思？

What do you mean improv?

即兴表演就是让演员们，比如在电影里布置一个场景。

Improv of just, like, letting the actors, like like, setting up a scene in this film.

有很多次，我们只是说：好吧，我们有几只鸡，乔尔和菲莉西蒂现在要去喂鸡。

There are multiple times where it's just like, alright, we've got some chickens, and Joel and Felicity are now gonna feed the chickens.

看看会发生什么。

Let's see what happens.

你知道的。

You know?

这种做法源于纪录片式的背景：先布置一个场景，然后慢慢调整，让它显得自然，最后再通过剪辑来完善。

And then giving them that comes from, like, a documentary background of, like, setting something up, a space, and then kind of adjusting it into something that feels considered, and then you always have the edit.

所以你先拍一大堆素材，然后通过剪辑来真正塑造出一个自然流畅的片段。

So you just get a bunch of stuff, then you have the edit to, like, actually shape something that feels considered.

但你希望达到一种状态：当观众观看时，或者阅读剧本、小说等文本时，他们根本分不清哪些是当天即兴发挥的，哪些是六年前、两年前甚至更早就写好的。

But you wanna get to a space where when the viewer's watching it or when they're reading something as a as a screenplay or a piece of fiction or whatever, they don't know what was made up on the day, and they don't know what was written six years earlier, right, or two years earlier, whatever it is.

而且，那种感觉上，根本分不出哪段是经过深思熟虑的，比如那个孩子把杯子扔进河里的场景。

And and you there's no there's no difference in feeling between something that was very considered, like this kid throwing a cup of like, a cup into a river.

这个画面从很早以前我就想好了，当时就写进了剧本里。

It was an image that I wanted from very early on that we put in the script.

那现在该怎么让这个场景看起来，像是孩子无意间把杯子扔进河里的呢？

And, like, now how do you get it to feel like the kid just threw the cup in the river kind of on accident?

然后乔尔就说：‘你在干什么？’

Then Joel's like, oh, what are you doing?

我很喜欢他对此的反应。

I love the way he responds to it.

那真的让我很感动。

That that that really moved me.

昨晚我重看的时候，觉得这特别像一个父亲会做的事。

When I watched it last night, like, it was a very fatherly thing to do.

这非常有爱，但同时也带着点‘你干嘛这么做？’的感觉。

It's very loving, but also just like, what'd you do that for?

不可能。

No way.

但这也太暖心了。

But it's so sweet.

而且这一点也是经过深思熟虑的，比如退后一步，人们非常喜欢并产生强烈共鸣的一句台词——当飞机即将开始上下颠簸时，飞行员说：‘你们最好抓紧点东西。’

And that was very considered too, like, stepping back, something that, like, a line that people love and have really connected to, which is when the pilot when they're about to start all the stuff of, like, going up and down, pilot's like, You better hold on to something.

这句话真的深深打动了观众，成为某种主题性的表达，我不知道该怎么形容，但确实为整部电影增添了意义。

That's something that's really, like people really glommed onto that line as some sort of, like, thematic I don't know, like like a yeah, for the film.

这句话是飞行员当天即兴说的。

And that's something that the pilot said on the day.

这位飞行员真的是个真正的飞行员。

That pilot, she's a real pilot.

她叫埃米莉亚。

She's Her name's Emilia.

她之前从未演过戏。

She'd never acted before.

那个时刻原本有一句不同的台词，但显得有点尴尬。

And there was a different line in there for that moment, and it was kind of awkward.

我当时就想，如果你要带这个人上去，让他享受一段愉快的时光，你会说什么？

And I was like, How would you If you were about to do this with take this guy up and, like, give him a fun time, like, what would you say?

她说，我会这么说。

And she's like, I would say this.

他们说，但你不想让观众或读者（如果是剧本的话）感受到任何差异。

And And they're like But there's no you don't want the viewer to feel any difference when they're or the reader, if it's a screenplay or whatever.

即兴表演最棒的地方在于，作为编剧，我们还能把功劳归于自己。

The best part of improv too is that as writers, we get to take credit for it.

你知道的。

You know?

哇。

Wow.

这是个很棒的主意。

That was a great idea.

是的。

Yes.

当你思考主角时，要塑造主角的共鸣感，让我们愿意支持主角，小说和电影在主角的道德取向上存在一些差异，这些差异与电影开头的一起杀人事件有关。

When you think about a main character and giving that main character, establishing the sense of connection, making us wanna root for the main character, there's a few differences between the book and the movie in terms of almost the morals of the main character that kinda go back to a killing that's early in the movie.

你认为主角应该被喜爱吗？

And how do you think about do you want the main character to be loved?

你希望我们支持主角吗？如果不喜欢主角怎么办？

Do you want us to root for the main character when don't you like, what if we don't like the main character?

在塑造角色时，真正重要的是

What really matters as you're shaping

什么？

that?

关于你提到的那个人被扔下桥的情节，我觉得这一点很有趣。

With this one in particular, I think it's funny what you're referring to with the the guy getting thrown off the bridge.

而这一场景的意图是，他在那一瞬间曾试图帮助过。

And the intention of that was and and the intention in the scene is that he helps for a moment.

他被卷入了帮忙做这件事的过程。

He gets swept up in, like, helping do this thing.

对吧？

Right?

然后他被推开，但他又被卷入了一种他并不认同、深感厌恶的暴力行为中，这件事一直困扰着他。

And then he gets kicked away and and but he gets swept up in this violence in a thing that he doesn't condone and feels very sickened by, and then that haunts him.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这在编剧入门课程里是绝对不应该做的。

That's something that, like In Screenwriting 101, you would never do that.

对吧？

Right?

你一直被教导不要这么做。

You were told to never do that.

永远不要在电影开头让一个角色试图谋杀一个无辜的人。

Never have a character try and murder somebody who's innocent in the beginning of the film.

在电影开头，为了毫无理由地帮别人杀人，就这样被卷入这种事情，对吧？

Try and help other people murder somebody in the beginning of a film, right, for no reason at all, and just get swept up in something like that.

你被教导过要做相反的事。

You were told to do the opposite.

你还被教导不要塑造一个被动的主角，让他只是被动地承受生活发生的一切。

You also are told to, like, not have a passive main character, who's just kind of like life's just kind of happening to him.

你可能还被教导不要塑造一个沉默寡言的主角，让他在整个电影中几乎不说话，诸如此类。

You're told probably not to have, like, a quiet main character who doesn't say a lot over the course of the film and all these things.

但事实上，书里的角色就是这样，他内心充满各种情绪，思考很多东西，却未必能理解或表达出来。

But, like, that was the that was the character in the book where he's this, like, he's feeling a lot of things, he's thinking a lot of things, but not in ways he can necessarily understand Even articulate.

在电影里，很多时候我注意到，每当他了解到一些事情，别人都会说，是的。

A lot of times in the movie, noticed that he'll whenever he learns something, other people are like, yeah.

而他会说，真的吗？

And he'll be like, oh, really?

我觉得电影中有三次他其实并不知道这件事。

I think there's three times in the movie where he kinda didn't know this thing.

这并不是说所有人都应该知道，但你能感觉到他确实知道得不多，但内心又非常深邃。

And it wasn't like everyone should've known that, but you get the sense that he just doesn't know that much, but also is very deep.

没错。

Right.

我认为，我们拍过的很多电影之所以广为人知，很大程度上是因为其中的核心表演。

There's also an aspect, I think, with a lot of movies we've done, they sort of become known in many ways because of their central performances.

如果我要分析原因，我会说，因为我们真的努力将作品与艺术家融为一体，让他们能够——正如我们常说的——彻底倾尽所有，展现出他们作为一个人的全部。

And I if I've tried to analyze it, I would say is because we really try to fuse work to to the artist and allow for them to, what we always say, like, empty the tank finally and, like, you know, bring all that they have as a person.

所以，乔尔那种看待世界的方式，还有他的精神气质，我认为也融入了这个角色之中。

And so Joel, you know, the way he kinda moves through the world and, like, and and, like, his spirit, I think, kinda fused into this character too.

我们一直在倾听，并不断打磨和精炼剧本，让它成为演员能够穿上、最真实地演绎自己的外衣。

And and and it's something we're always listening to and we're always refining and and sharpening a script so that it it becomes the clothes that they can put on to to be most truthful.

所以，这既是格林纳的，也是我们试图从他内在本质中挖掘并呈现出来的东西。

And so it's it's part Grineer, but it's also kinda like trying to listen to things that we can kinda surface from from his essence too.

是的

Yeah.

你提到了精神。

You talk about the spirit.

所以你知道，他是个相当外向的人，足够外向了。

So I you know, pretty outgoing guy, outgoing enough.

我刚看完电影，就走到街对面的一家酒吧。

And I had just left the theater, and I walk over to a bar down the street.

那是一家类似酒吧兼咖啡馆的地方。

It was a sort of bar coffee shop type thing.

当时大概是9点半，街上飘着雪，然后那两个非常漂亮的女孩朝我走过来。

And it was probably 09:30, snow in the streets, and, you know, these two very good looking girls walk up to me.

她们说：嘿，你今晚过得怎么样？

They're like, hey, you know, how's your night going?

通常我会想：好吧，发生什么事了？

And usually, I'd be like, alright, what's going on?

我当时就想，你们能不能就待在那儿，就看着这部电影？

And I was like, I I I just can you guys just, like, stay over there and just watch this movie?

它，就像

It, like

天啊。

Oh, man.

有点忧郁。

Sort of melancholy.

这太疯狂了，因为接下来的几天，我整个人都笼罩在一种非常阴郁的情绪中。

And it was crazy because, like, I just had this sort of very gloomy spirit for the next few days.

但这感觉真好。

It was wonderful.

就是能感受到他所经历的一切，那种沉重感。

It was just, like, feeling the feeling the weight of what he went through and and and all that.

这就是我喜欢的地方，有人跟我提到，后来有个场景是格雷纳遇到一个女孩，在一部典型的好莱坞电影里，他们可能会相爱什么的。

And that's what I liked about you know, someone said something to me that there's a scene later on where Grainer meets a girl, and in a very Hollywood movie, you know, maybe they, you know, fall in love or something like that.

而且，不，

And, like, no.

你知道的？

You know?

不。

No.

这就是这部电影。

It's just that's the movie.

这就是它所要表达的。

That's that's that's what it's about.

这就是生活。

And that's life.

就像你刚才讲的那个故事。

Just like the story you just told.

对吧？

Right?

如果我是在拍一部非常好莱坞式的电影，就不会有你刚才讲的酒吧里发生的事那样的情节，那不会那样发展，是的。

If I were, like, telling that in a very Hollywood movie, it wouldn't have that story that you just told about what happened at the bar would not have gone that way Yeah.

这正是你思考这部电影以及所有相关东西的地方。

Which is like where you thought about this movie and and all that.

这又回到了电影本身以及故事的核心前提：将现实生活以任何电影情节通常所呈现的戏剧性方式来对待。

And that went back to kind of a central premise of, of the movie itself and and of the story was treating real life as cinematically as as any, like, movie plot normally is.

对吧？

Right?

比如，看一部电影里的劫案、战斗或类似的情节，真的非常刺激。

Like, for example, it's really exciting to see a heist in a movie or a battle or something like that.

但试着去呈现那些对我们而言意义重大的时刻——比如坠入爱河，或某天与家人、朋友相处时感受到的平静，或当你看完一部电影、读完一本书后，内心被深深触动，只想静静沉浸在这种感受中的那种强烈共鸣。

But trying to treat, like, trying to treat something that is monumental for us, like falling in love or, or, like, just feeling peaceful with the family or with a friend one day, or this very resonant feeling of, like, when you walk out

从电影院走出来，或读完

of a movie or read

一本改变你的书，你只想静静地停留在那种感觉里。

a book that changes you, and you just kinda wanna sit in that feeling.

就像把这种感觉

Like, translating that

以一种不过分的方式转化为电影，不要过度渲染。

to film in a way without overdoing it Without overdoing it.

这是一个非常关键的要点。

That's a very key point.

你别把它弄得矫情。

You should word it schmaltzy.

矫情？

Schmaltzy?

我不确定这算不算一个真实的词，但当然了。

I don't know if that's a real world or not, but Of course.

好的。

Okay.

但只是想试着，比如说

But just trying to, like

听起来像意第绪语。

Sounds Yiddish.

不，我不太确定。

Not, like I I don't know.

别过度渲染，但要赋予它那种共鸣、深度和尊重，让那个时刻配得上这些。

Like, not overdo it, but give it the resonance and the and the and the, like, the depth and the respect that that moment deserves.

回到你在把杆旁的情景，我想他们可能更关注你，因为你显得忧郁，所以《列车梦》也许为你增添了一层光环。

So going back to you at the barre, so they I think maybe they were more into you because you were brooding, so Train Dreams maybe put this glow on

你。

you.

给我一种吸引力的氛围。

Give me a spirit of attraction.

懂吗？

Know?

我刚才就跟你说过这个。

I you know, I said just this to you.

我第一次看的时候，看电影时流下了眼泪，尤其是早期那些温馨的片段。

I the first time I watched it, I had small tears as I watched the movie, especially early on with the sweetness.

我记得当时紧紧抓住椅子的扶手。

And I remember just gripping the side of my chair.

他当时并不知道，这些时刻会在未来的岁月里成为他一生中最美好的回忆之一。

Little did he know that he would remember these moments as these years as some of the best of his life.

是的。

Yeah.

昨晚我在Netflix上看了，这样我就能随时暂停。

And I got to watch it last night on Netflix, so then I could stop it.

那大约是第36分钟。

That was about minute thirty six.

好的。

Okay.

而之后，那种付出带来的回报，大概在八到十二分钟之后出现。

And then the payoff of, you know, what comes from that is about, I don't know, eight, twelve minutes later.

昨晚我观看时，直到片尾才流下眼泪，随后片尾字幕中响起了尼克·凯夫的歌曲。

And then last night, I didn't have any tears as I watched it until the end, and then we got the Nick Cave song in the credits.

那时大坝刚刚溃决。

And it was the over dam had just collapsed.

昨晚我……说实话，我也不太清楚。

And it was and I last night, I mean, was I don't know.

那时一定是凌晨一点，我像个小女孩一样嚎啕大哭。

Must have been one in the morning, and I was just bawling like a little girl.

那种感觉是一种忧郁、某种悲伤与阴郁，但又无比美好。

And it was just just feeling like this melancholy, a certain kind of sadness, gloominess, but it was it was wonderful.

它给人一种非常治愈而宁静的感觉。

It felt very sort of therapeutic and peaceful.

我想回到刚才那个关于不要过度渲染的观点，因为昨晚我流下的眼泪，其实源于这些细微的情感。

And I wanna get back to that point about not overdoing it, because the word that's coming is that what I the sort of tears last night were these sort of subtle feelings

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

悲伤和阴郁，而不是这种

Of sadness and gloominess, and not this sort

的

of

强烈的绝望。

intense despair.

在生活的忙碌中，你往往会忽略这些更细微的情感。

And sometimes in just the hustle and bustle of life, you kind of skip over those more subtle emotions.

是的。

Yeah.

而且即使在拍电影、构思影片、试图思考如何引导观众感受并传达某种情绪而不操纵他们时，也很容易忽略这些情感。

And it's easy to it's also easy to skip over them even when you're making a film and when you're constructing it and trying to think about a way to lead the audience to a place and communicate something without manipulating them.

对吧？

Right?

你本质上是在操纵他们，无论你是写书、绘画，还是试图通过你的眼睛展示某种风景，或者通过剪辑来传达什么。

You are inherently we're manipulating them whether you're again, whether you're writing a book or whether you're painting something and you're trying to to show them this, like, you know, landscape from through your eyes or whatever or through editing.

这种操纵是固有的，但要努力做到不虚伪。

There is inherent manipulation, but trying not to be dishonest about it.

我不知道该如何最好地表达这一点。

I don't know even the way to the best way to articulate it.

这个媒介还有一种非常有趣的现象，虽然我不太理解，但我觉得它仍有无限的可能性——你做了这么多工作，把这些东西组合在一起，却诞生了某种全新的东西。

There's also something very interesting that, like, I don't understand it, but about this medium, that's very, like I feel like there's still, like, infinite possibilities with this medium where, like, you do all this stuff and you put this thing together and something else is created.

我们之前讨论过很多次，比如在剪辑过程中，试图找到结局。

Like, I we talked about it a lot, like, at the end like, through the edit and trying to figure out the ending.

我当时想，也许这部影片不会真正深刻地触动人们的情感。

And I was like, I guess this just won't be, like, a film that really, like, affects people deeply emotionally.

你知道，它可能会是一部有趣的电影，但人们大概不会因此而流泪。

You know, like, it'll be, like, an interesting film, but, like, they probably won't be crying from it.

但这样也没关系。

And, like, that's fine.

也许这正是它该有的样子。

Maybe that's just what it needs to be.

但有趣的是，情况并非如此。

And it's been very interesting that that's not the case.

但确实，有某种东西——就连你，我也从几个人那里听过类似的说法，他们第一次看时是这样理解的，过一段时间再看一遍，却得到了完全不同的感受。

But but, yeah, there's something And and and and even with you, like, I've heard this from a couple of different people where they, like, see it and they they see it one way, and they see it a little bit later and watch it again and get something very different from it.

但你在看的这两遍之间，我并没有改动过这部电影。

Now, I haven't changed the film in the two times that you saw it.

对吧？

Right?

但你变了。

But you've changed.

在你和你所互动的这件作品之间，某种东西发生了变化，这让我也说不清楚。

And then something changes in between you and this piece of work that you're that you're interacting with that's, like, very I don't know.

如果不陷入一种玄乎神秘的表述，真的很难说清楚这一点。

It's hard to talk about it without getting into, like, kind of a woo woo mystical kind of place.

门开着，如果我们想深入讨论的话。

That, door's open if we wanna go there.

你

You

知道吗？

know?

嗯，其实不知道。

Well, no.

但你不能让语言崩塌。

But you can't words break down.

这就像经历了一次宗教体验，然后你能说什么呢？

It's like having having a religious experience, and then what do you say?

所以我们用一个比喻来形容它，比如它就像这样，我能感受到，但你真的很难用语言准确表达出来。

And so then we create a metaphor for it of, like, it is like this, and I experience you know, like, the the you can't really articulate what it is.

你只能去亲身体验。

You just have to experience it.

说到这个，我最近参加了一场电影放映，导演在开场时开了个玩笑，但我觉得他笑得无比真诚。

Well, to your point with I was at a film screening recently, and the director got up at the beginning and was joking, but I thought was joking in the most true way.

她说，一直以来，她的梦想就是把一群朋友和家人聚在房间里，让他们都坐下来，观看她所创作的作品，就像把他们锁在椅子上一样。

She said, it has been my dream to get a bunch of friends and family in a room and make them all sit in a room and watch the thing I've made, like locking them in their chairs.

我觉得导演和建筑师在这方面非常相似，也就是说，导演是在创造一个世界。

And I think directors and architects are very similar in this way of, like, I mean, man, with directing, you are creating a world.

你有剧本。

You got the writing.

你有画面。

You got the visuals.

你有声音。

You got the sound.

你还有其他三百六十三个元素。

You got 363 other things.

这些都是不同艺术形式汇聚在一起所产生的协同效应。

And it is this sort of consilience of different art forms that that that comes together.

是的

Yeah.

不

No.

我认为这是最伟大的艺术合作形式。

I do think it is the greatest artistic collaboration that exists.

你知道，它融合了视觉媒介、文字媒介、音乐、设计艺术，将这一切结合在一起，讲述一个故事。

You know, it takes the visual medium, the written medium, music, art in terms of design, you know, and brings that all together to tell one story.

而且，作为艺术家一路成长起来，我们一直讨论的一个问题是：如何定义导演的成功？就我个人而言，有时候，当某部作品完全符合你的愿景，你成功地将一群拥有各自审美和品味的艺术家凝聚在一起时，

And, you know, one of the things we've always talked about as we've grown up as artists is how do you define success as a director and, you know, at least personally speaking, like, there are times when, you know, something only meets your vision and you are harnessing, like, this whole group of artists together and that have sensibilities and their own tastes and all that and stuff.

它只是符合了你的愿景。

It just meets the vision.

我其实并不认为这就是成功。

I actually don't really see that as success.

真正的成功是，它能否超越你的愿景，带给你惊喜，同时依然忠于初衷，甚至带来启示。

It's like, can it expand beyond the vision, you know, and show us something that surprises you that still feels true to, you know, the intention, but is revelatory.

你知道吧？

You know?

所以在我和演员或摄影师合作时，我总是追求这样的东西：这是我最初的构想，但还有没有别的可能？

So I'm always after that in my collaborations with actors or, cinematographers of like, here's the idea I'm starting with, but what else is there?

比如，它的底层是什么？

Like, what's underneath it?

它之外又是什么？

What's beyond it?

你所说的这些，是否让你联想到‘野心’这个词，还是说它有所不同？

Does the word ambition ring a bell in what you're saying, or is it something different?

当然。

Sure.

我的意思是，我本身就是一个非常有野心的人。

I mean, just because I'm a very ambitious person.

嗯，想法是

Well, thought

我好像在你的第一部电影里看到过什么。

I saw something I thought I saw something from your first film or something.

比如，你们在第一部电影里谈论过野心，真的去全力以赴。

Like, it was you guys were talking about ambition in your first film to, like, really go for it.

那是什么？

What was that?

那是什么？

What was that?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，你知道，尤其是拍第一部电影时，人们倾向于量力而行。

I I do think, you know, there's an inclination to especially with first films to work within your means.

你知道， basically，我这房子是免费的，所以我们就在那儿拍电影。

You know, basically, I have this house for free, so we're gonna make a movie in

我们免费拥有的那栋房子

the house that we have for free

而另一方面，如果你有一个让你感到害怕的、觉得难以企及的想法。

versus having an an idea that that it feels like you're reaching that scares you a little bit.

就是，根本不知道我们该怎么实现这个目标。

It's like, don't know how the fuck we're gonna pull this off.

然而，我们的资金仍然是有限的，但必须用这笔钱完成这件事。

And yet, we still only have this finite amount of money, but with this money, we have to do this thing.

而这种宏大的目标，你知道，可能会让作品突破喧嚣。

And something about the reach of it, you know, can can push something to maybe be able to break through the noise.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得地点确实能带来这种效果，我们的很多电影都设定在一些无可替代的地方。

I do think locations can do that for you that like, a lot of our films have been set in in places that are priceless.

因此，你会感受到一种宏大感，这让你能在如此壮阔的环境中，进行更细腻的创作。

And so they you feel scale, and it allows you to then do maybe more intimate work within something because you're operating in such a grand environment.

当你在写作时，思考爱情故事的早期阶段，

When you're writing, thinking through the early stages of a love story,

为了让这个故事显得真实，什么才是关键？

What matters in order to make that story feel real?

因为这又回到了那个主题：不要太过夸张，要让它显得纯粹而真实。

Because this comes back to that theme of not having it be so over the top, having it feel pure and true.

对于爱情故事来说，我认为这和任何友谊或你试图建立的任何关系都一样，我的意思是，我不确定。

With a love story in particular, I think it's the same as any friendship or any anything you're trying to get I mean, I don't know.

别太深入细节，但问题是，你讲的是怎样的一个爱情故事？

Not to get too much in the weeds, but, like, it's like, what is the love story you're telling?

我是想展示一对已经在一起四年的伴侣，试图在电影中呈现他们的爱情故事吗？

Am I showing you a, like, couple that's been together four years, and I'm trying to show you that love story in a film?

还是我想展示一对刚刚相遇的恋人，展现他们初识时的爱情？

Or am I showing you this couple who's I'm you're seeing them meet Young love.

而整部电影都聚焦在最初的三个月，那是最混乱、最美妙、最美好的时期，但却缺乏后来那种更深的共鸣。

And I'm and and I'm and I'm just the whole film is about that of the first three months, which is the most, like, chaotic and beautiful and wonderful, da da da, but then doesn't have some of that resonance that comes later.

或者，这个故事里是格拉迪斯和格里纳，非常重要的是要表现出他们的爱，以及他们彼此之间深厚的情感联系。

Or, like, this one this one was a was a with Gladys and Grineer, like, it was really important to make it feel to feel their love, but also feel the depth of their connection to each other.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的吧？

You know?

而且要传达出这两点：他们完全被对方迷住，就像在初期那种根本无法离开彼此的时刻。

And and to get those two things across, that they are totally enamored with each other where, like, you see that that time early on where you just can't keep your hands off of each other.

对吧？

Right?

但你也会看到后来，他们在餐桌旁为钱争吵的时刻。

But then you also see the time later where you're, like, arguing over money over the dinner table.

但这当然并不意味着他们不爱对方。

And that doesn't mean you don't love each other, of course.

对吧？

Right?

但这就是一段关系的各种形态。

But that's, like, all the varieties of a relationship.

但就连这一点，我昨晚刚看过。

But even that, I I I watched that last night.

我一直在想这件事。

I thought about that.

那种爱中带着锋利的感觉。

That had this sort of loving sharpness.

当然。

Of course.

因为，他们并不是，而且这正是

Because, like, they're not, like and that's the

我觉得挺让人遗憾的，有点 cynical，我前几天看了《Bardo》上映时就一直在想这个。

thing I think it's it's kind of, like, a bummer to see, and it's a bit of a cynical thing where it's like, I was thinking about this when I saw Bardo that came out a few years ago.

那对夫妻之间的关系显得如此深厚而富有共鸣。

And that relationship between this married couple just feels so deep and resonant.

我当时就想，我一直在渴望这样的东西。

And I was like, I've been craving this.

我很久没看过这样的电影了，甚至都没意识到，在现代电影里已经这么久了。

I haven't seen I didn't even realize I hadn't seen something like this in a long time, you know, in in modern film.

因为大多数关于关系的电影都挺 cynical 的，他们互相讨厌，婚姻正在分崩离析，等等。

Because most relationship things about relationships are, like, kinda cynical and, like, they hate each other and their marriage is falling da da da.

所以，是的，我和我妻子也会为钱和其他事情争吵。

And it's like and so, yeah, like, my wife and I argue over money and things like that.

对吧？

Right?

但那并不意味着我们不喜欢对方。

But, like, but it's it's there's it doesn't mean we don't like each other.

你知道，我们依然很喜欢彼此，非常爱对方。

You know, we still like each other and love each other very much.

但我们是普通人，会争吵，会因为各种事情产生分歧。

But we're human beings, and we get in arguments and we get in disagreements over things.

所以这一部，它的基调是调整到不会偏向任何一方的感觉。

And so that one this one was like it was about calibrating it to where it didn't feel too much one way or the other.

在剪辑过程中，我们拍摄了一些在影片早期版本中出现的片段，让他们的互动显得太过尖锐，争吵也太多了。

And there were things in the edit that we shot that were in the early, early cuts of the film that made it feel too like there were too many barbs between them, and there was one too many arguments.

你想想，你所拥有的篇幅是有限的，对吧？

Given the real estate that you you know what?

我们和他们相处的时间并不长，对吧？

We don't have a lot of time with them Right.

在事情发生之前，我们没多少时间了。

Before what happens happens.

所以，一开始当我收到反馈时，人们说：他们甚至都不恨对方，甚至都不喜欢对方。

And so, like, it at first, like, when when I was getting feedback along the way, people were like, well, they don't even hate they don't even like each other.

你知道吗？

You know?

或者又走向另一个极端，变得太轻浮、太甜腻，完全不像一段真实的关系。

Or it then went the other direction where it was too light and airy and too sweet, and it didn't feel like a real relationship.

所以我不确定有没有回答你的问题，但关键在于制作过程中不断调整，才能让作品显得真实。

And so I don't know if I even answered your question, but it's about cap calibration along the way if you wanna make something feel real.

反馈。

Feedback.

你怎么

How do you

在电影制作的不同阶段获取反馈呢？

go about getting feedback at different stages of making a film?

比如，在剧本阶段的反馈

Like, feedback in the scripting

我们在这方面有不同的做法。

We have different answers on this.

我成长了。

I've evolved.

一开始，坦白说，我们会非常情绪化、防御性强，因为我是个把心放在袖子上的人。

At the beginning, admittedly, we get very emotional, defensive, and just I'm a heart on a sleeve type of person.

所以，当这种情况运作良好时，就像你敞开心扉，充满热情。

And so, you know, the beautiful, when that's working well, it's like you're heart forward and and there's a lot of passion.

而消极的一面是，当别人真正为了你正在做的事情而提供意见，想帮助你时，你却可能把事情太当真。

And then the, you know, the negative side is is you can take things too personally when people are really they're there in service of the thing you're trying to do, wanna give you wanna help you.

我觉得我们现在可能处于差不多的位置：收到反馈时，就会说，试试看吧。

You know, I think we probably are somewhat in a similar place now is that you get notes and it's like, just try it.

是的。

-Yeah.

试试看。

-Just try it.

看看会有什么结果。

See what's there.

你知道的？

You know?

你都是从谁那里获取反馈的？

And who are you getting notes from?

朋友、家人、合作者？

Friends, family, collaborators?

这取决于写作过程，我们有一个相当小的智囊团。

Depends on in the writing process, we have, like, a pretty small think tank.

有一位朋友叫琳达·霍尔伯特，我们认识已经超过十年了。

You know, there's one friend, Linda Hallbert, who we've known for over a decade.

我们一起拍了很多电影。

We've made a lot of movies together.

她读过我们写过的几乎所有草稿。

She's read almost every draft of everything we've ever written.

然后我们会稍微扩大这个范围，看看谁必须阅读，比如投资人、制片人之类的。

And then it's just expanding that field slightly, and then it's like who has to read it, you know, like financiers or producers or such.

接着你就得在反馈中应对一种微妙的权力动态，比如：我必须采纳这条意见吗？

And then you're navigating a somewhat delicate, like power dynamic with feedback of like, do I have to take this note?

你知道的？

You know?

如何传递反馈，尤其是对艺术家而言，有一种方式是带着‘不妨试试看，也许我们错了’的态度，这样我们就会说，好吧，那我们就试试，也许你是对的。

How and so the person delivering it, especially to artists, there's a way to do that, that if they have the same spirit of just try it and we may be wrong, and we're like, okay, well then we'll try it and maybe you're right.

在这种互动模式下，可能会产生很棒的结果，但我觉得有时会出问题，当缺乏信任，或者给出反馈的人像是在向艺术家下达指令时，那就有点……你知道的。

Cool things can happen in that type of dynamic, but I think sometimes it can go sideways when, you know, there's a lack of trust or that the, you know, whoever's giving the note is is like a mandate to an artist, then then that gets kind of you know?

然后各种刺猬般的问题就冒出来了。

Then the porcupine y things come up.

而且最好能有一群不同背景的人，特别是谈到电影时，要找那些了解你真正想表达什么的人，听取他们的意见——他们通过和你交谈、读过原著、或在片场观察，知道你想要什么，而这些意见能与那些完全不懂你在做什么的人的意见形成对比，你知道吗？

And it's good to have a comb it's good to get a combination along the way of people who especially with the film speaking specifically to that, but people who know what you're going for and getting their notes, where they're like, I know from talking to you and from or from knowing the book or whatever, like, or from being on set, like, what you're trying to do and this is not coming across alongside people who have no idea what what any of it is, You know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如朋友会问：‘你拍的电影讲的是什么啊？’

Like, friends who are just like, what did you make your movie about?

他们会说：‘好吧，又要开始了。’

They're like, well, here we go.

然后他们可以

And then they can

对。

Right.

他们以不同方式提供反馈，这其实也很有帮助。

Like, they can getting their feedback in different ways is really helpful too.

这几乎就是你能接触到的最接近观众的方式了。

Of it, it just it's the closest to an audience you're gonna get.

对吧？

Right?

哪些地方有效，哪些地方无效。

Of, like, what's working, what's not.

你觉得哪些地方特别不奏效，需要更明确地表达，结果却完全没传达出来？太好了。

What do you think is really not working that you need to be much more clear about that is totally coming across, you're like, great.

现在我们没法再收回了。

Now we can't pull

这一点我们得稍微收一收。

this back a little bit.

有时候，他们甚至不需要说一个字。

Sometimes they don't even need to say a word either.

你只需要观察他们。

You can just watch them.

观察一下。

Watch it.

真正地理解。

Really knowing.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，当他们身体前倾时，你就知道他们感同身受、全神贯注，而当他们退缩时，你也知道。

You know, where it, you know, is a lean forward and and you you you know that they're feeling it and they're plugged in, you know, when they're retreating.

你能感受到房间里的气氛。

You know, you can feel the energy in in the room.

但我觉得，对于任何事情，到了某个阶段，比如写作过程中的编辑，你就失去了客观视角。

But I think at a certain point with anything, like, you get, whether it's an editor in the writing process, where you don't have perspective anymore.

是的。

Yep.

对吧？

Ain't that right?

反馈就像摇树一样，仅此而已。

And feedback just shakes the tree, you know, nothing else.

很多时候，有人会举手指出某个地方有问题或感觉不对，确实有问题，但真正的症结可能早在剧本或电影的更早阶段就存在了。

And oftentimes, like there, someone may be raising their hand and pointing at something that is wrong or feels wrong, and it is, but it's it maybe the problem is actually much earlier in the script or the film.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，具体问题是什么以及如何解决，并不总是直接对应的，但它能揭示出作品需要改进的方向。

And so the what and how to address it is not always directly aligned, but it it can surface where the work needs to go.

告诉我，你们早期得到的建议是警惕对话过多、不要过度依赖对话，这些建议是怎么来的？

Tell me about the piece of advice you guys got early on to beware of having too much dialogue and not to lean on that.

当时这么想的依据是什么？

What was the thinking behind that?

哦，这是

Oh, it's a it

是我们的一位导师兼好友给我们的建议。

was a mentor of ours and a good friend who gave us the advice.

他是一位编剧，建议我们只在别无选择时才使用对话。

He's a screenwriter, and he gave us the advice to only use dialogue as a last resort.

起初，这听起来毫无道理，我想我们是通过实践才慢慢领悟的。

Now, that didn't make any sense, you know, early on, and it was only something I think we learned by doing.

我记得在《Trans Pecos》——我们共同编剧、格雷格执导的第一部电影中，有一个场景。

I remember there was a scene in Trans Pecos, the first film we wrote together that Greg directed.

那场戏是约翰尼·西蒙斯和加布里埃尔·卢纳之间的戏，他们在一辆卡车里。

And there was a scene where it's between Johnny Simmons and Gabriel Luna, and they're in a truck.

有一段很长的对话，讨论接下来会发生什么，一个人担心什么，另一个人试图说服他做什么。

There's a whole long dialogue sequence about what's gonna happen next and what this one's worried about and what that one's trying to convince him to do.

那段对话其实很不错，内容很丰富。

It was a good like, a lot of good dialogue in there.

然后，我不记得这发生在拍摄过程中还是剪辑阶段。

And then, I don't remember if this happened in the in the shooting of it or in the edit.

是在拍摄时发生的，对，在片场。

It was in the shoot, yeah, on set.

那个场景最终被简化为一句话和他们之间的一些眼神交流，比我们写下的所有那些东西都要好得多。

That scene became one line and some looks between them, and it was so much better than all this shit we had written.

你知道吗？

Well You know?

这对我们两人来说都是一个真正的教训，就是要达到那种状态——你的电影不需要把一切都明说。

And and that was that was a real lesson for both of us of of just trying to get to that place where your film is operating in a way where you're not having to say everything.

而且，再次回到我们一开始谈到的无声电影，问题是：你能做到的最少的表达，却能给观众带来最多的感受，那是什么？

And, again, that's where and going back to, like, what we started talking about with this, like, silent cinema, is, like, what's the what's the least you can do that's gonna make your film that's gonna give the most to the audience?

你有没有觉得，你这么说的时候特别有趣？

You know what's so funny as you say this?

显然，《列车梦境》就体现了这一点。

So, obviously, Train Dreams embodies this.

但接着有个场景是阿尔特一直在说啊说啊说个不停。

But then there's the scene where Art is just talking and talking and talking and talking.

我当时想，也许是因为音乐的原因。

And I was maybe it's something about the music.

也许是因为某种其他因素，总之很难跟上他的思路。

Maybe it's something about whatever's going It's kind of hard to follow him.

对。

Right.

我意识到，我其实并不该去认真听。

And I realized, I'm actually not supposed to listen.

他只是在向世界释放能量，这恰恰完全相反。

He's actually just spewing energy into the world, which is exactly the opposite.

是的。

Yeah.

就像你之前引用的那句话，那些话会一直留在你心里。

Which is like and that and that line that you quoted earlier, like, those will stick with you.

嗯，后来呢，

Well, later on,

他说这一切都很美，不是吗？

he says it's all beautiful, ain't it?

就是那句，对。

And it's just that one Right.

台词。

Line.

当你拥有那种沉默，让观众能够自行体会时，就有一些电影或戏剧，对话非常多。

And if you've got that silence where the audience can can can do their work now there's films like like very dialogue heavy films or plays.

比如，这不适用于《赫德小姐与弗里德先生》。

Like, you can't this doesn't apply to His Girl Friday.

对吧？

Right?

我刚看了《爱在黎明破晓前》。

I just watched Before Sunrise.

这就是全部。

It's the whole thing.

《爱在黎明破晓前》。

Before Sunrise.

那完全不同，那种电影就应该充满对白，这正是它的精髓所在。

That's not like, that's a different beast and should be full of dialogue, that's the whole point of it.

对吧？

Right?

而且，那种电影有一种音乐性和节奏感，它自成一体，你能完全沉浸其中。

And, like And there's a musicality to that and a rhythm to it that, like, that works, you're you're you're locking into its own thing.

但这部片子不是那样的，这是一种完全不同的手法。

But this isn't that, and this is a different kind of approach.

对于这部片子，我觉得越能让电影本身说话越好。我们曾经写过一段很棒的旁白，比如有一个场景，格尼尔在离开伐木工作后，坐在湖边。

And, and for this, I think the more you can, like, get it to the place where the film's doing the talking there was a great, like, great piece of voiceover that we wrote, or, like, that was like There's a scene where he's sitting by a lakeside, where Grenier's sitting by a lakeside after he's, like, left logging.

我特别自豪我们写下的那段旁白，讲的是这片土地的悠久历史、冰川，还有这一切。

And I was so proud of this voiceover that we had written about, like, the deep history of the land and the glaciers and all this.

到了剪辑室，我们发现这个场景效果不太好。

And we got to the in the edit room, and that scene wasn't working very well.

我们的音效设计师莱·萨利万，我们之前合作过很多次，我就问他：我们要不要把这段旁白删掉？

And our sound designer, Leigh Salivan, who we've worked with quite a few times, I was like, Should we pull this voiceover out?

它就是没有像我希望的那样产生共鸣。

It just it's not it's not, like, really connecting in the way that I hoped.

他回答说：听好了。

And he was like, well, listen.

这段文字写得确实不错，但这个场景并不好。

It's some very good writing, but it's not a good scene.

所以你得选一个：你要好的文字，还是要好的场景？

And so you pick which one you want.

你是想要好的文字，还是想要好的场景？

Do you want the good writing, do you want a good scene?

我当时说：对。

And I was like, yeah.

我认为在电影制作的迭代过程中，对我们来说至少很重要的是先写出来，甚至写得过头，因为这样至少还能保留在黑白文本阶段。

I do think in the iterative process of filmmaking, it's important to us at least to write it, to overwrite it, yeah, sometimes because then it's still that's in the black and white.

现在你将加入表演这一维度。

It's one dimension that now you're gonna have performance.

你还有摄影。

You have camera.

你还有场景设置。

You have the setting.

你还有其他各种元素，它们都能为场景的主题增添内容。

You have all these other things that that can then speak into what the scene's about.

然后你就能灵活地舍弃它，或者把它融入某种视觉风格中。

And then you can kind of have the fluidity to throw it out, you know, or put it all into a look or else.

但除非你先把它写出来，真正把整个故事以它所有的冗余形式写完，否则我们不会知道自己真正想要的是什么。

But we won't know what we're reaching for unless you put it there first, you know, and actually and actually wrote the whole thing in in in all of its, you know, excess.

那么，跟我讲讲你是如何让故事引导你的吧。

Well, tell me about how you let the story guide you.

你知道吧？

You know?

比如，在什么时候，

Like, at what point,

我想，你一开始会有一个故事的想法，然后在某个时刻，我们之前提到过，故事会逐渐形成自己的形态。

I would imagine, you start off, you have this idea of a story, and then at some point, we're talking about a little bit earlier, where the story kinda takes on its own form.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它可能会让你感到意外，或者类似的情况。

And maybe it surprises you or something like that.

是这样发生的吗？那是一种什么样的感觉？

Is that what happens, or what's that like?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这有一个很好的例子。

I think there's a good example of this.

就像你努力达到那种状态，你是在倾听故事，而它仿佛在自行推进——这么说有点奇怪，但感觉更像是你在发现它，而不是在创造它。

Like, you're trying to get to that place where where you're listening to the story, and it's kind of moving of its own it's an odd thing to say, but it's like almost like you're finding it rather than you're creating it.

而且，我敢肯定，很多诗人、作家和其他人都比我们现在说得更优雅、更到位。

And and it's and and I'm sure you've had a lot of poets and writers and and everybody, like, say this much more eloquently than we will right now.

但有一个很好的例子来自结尾部分。

But there's a good example of this from from the ending.

你之前提到过这部电影的结尾。

You mentioned the ending earlier of this film.

这本书的结尾是我读过的最伟大的结局之一。

The ending of the book is one of the great endings that I've ever read in literature.

它太棒了，完美无缺。

It's so fantastic and it's so perfect.

它有点像《万有引力之虹》那种级别的结局。

It's kind of like this almost like Gravity's Rainbow level ending.

我们完全以为这会是书和电影的结尾，于是直接照搬了这个结尾，写进了剧本里，就是那个狼孩的表演场景。

And we totally thought that would be the ending of the book of the movie and wrote that in the script as the ending, kind of verbatim, you know, of, like, this wolf boy, this performance by this wolf boy.

而在书中，结尾处他说道：一切陷入黑暗，那段时光永远消逝了。

And, and then it ends in the book where he says, and it all went to black and that time was gone forever.

对吧？

Right?

我当时就想，哇，多么完美的结局。

And I was like, wow, what a perfect ending.

这将成为电影的结局。

That's gonna be the ending of movie.

我们拍了这个场景。

We shot that.

我们拍了整个这部分。

We shot that whole thing.

拍了飞机的桥段，这目前是电影的结尾。

Shot the plane sequence, which is currently the ending.

而那原本只是一个更小、更细微的片段。

And it was a much, like, smaller little thing.

然后我们开始和我们的剪辑师帕克·拉梅尔以及其他所有人一起观看成片。

And then we started watching it down with our editor, Parker Laramie, and and everybody else.

很明显，飞机场景就是结尾。

And it was very clear that, like, oh, the airplane sequence is the ending.

电影就这样结束了。

The film just ended.

现在我们有了这么多内容。

Now we've got all this stuff.

我们多了十分钟的素材。

We got ten more minutes of stuff.

这些该怎么处理呢？

What do you do with that?

你知道的？

You know?

于是我们就陷入了纠结，先犹豫了一会儿，心想：肯定不会吧，你知道的？

And so then it's a thing of, like, first you, like, hem and haw over it for a minute and you're like, well, surely not, you know?