丹尼尔·平克：如何写出真正有用的内容 | 我的写作方法

我宁愿在十天后发现这个问题，而不是在签了合同之后才发现。

I'd rather find that after ten days than after signing a contract and and doing that.

你能给我讲讲书籍提案的结构吗？

Can you walk me through the structure of a book proposal?

好吧。

Like, okay.

我想坐下来好好做这个。

So I want to sit down to do this.

嗯。

Yeah.

我有个想法。

I have an idea.

我的提纲是什么？

What is my outline?

那些是？

What are the?

这要看情况。

It depends.

这要看情况。

It depends.

书籍提案中最重要的事情是能够清晰地阐述这个想法，以及为什么它既完全新颖又完全熟悉。

The most important thing in a the most important things in a book proposal are being able to clearly articulate what the idea is, and also this is and also why it is totally fresh, but also totally familiar.

对。

Right.

所以你想要的是这种组合。

So so what you want is you want you want to have that combination.

《时机》这本书的绝佳推销点在于：我们已经有了很多‘如何做’的书。

It's basically the great pitch for the timing book was we have lots of how to books.

我们需要一本‘何时做’的书。

We need we need a when to book.

明白吗？

Alright?

所以你拥有的是，既新颖又熟悉。

So what you have is like that's fresh, but it's also familiar.

所以这个想法本身非常重要。

So the idea itself is is really important.

我认为要阐明为什么你是最适合写这本书的人。

I think establishing why you are the best person to write it.

首先，要说明为什么别人没写过，以及为什么你不仅是写这本书的最佳人选，甚至是地球上唯一能写这本书的人。

First of all, establishing why no one else has written it and why you are the not only the best person to write it, but the only human being on God's green earth who could possibly write it.

啊，那真是天选之人。

Ah, then anointed one.

是的。

Yes.

然后要明确目标读者是谁。

And then figuring out who the audience is.

这实际上非常重要。

And this is actually really important.

能够清晰地阐明目标读者是谁，许多作家会自我欺骗，以为他们的读者是所有人，但事实上从来都不是所有人。

Being able to clearly articulate who the audience is, and many writers delude themselves into thinking their audience is everybody, and it's never everybody.

因此，能够清晰地表达这一点。

And so being able to articulate that.

然后，给出这本书可能的结构，以及它对世界有何贡献。

And then, you know, giving a giving a sense of of, what the structure of the book might be, and also kind of what it contributes to the world.

你知道的。

You know?

比如，为什么没人写过这本书？为什么现在就需要它？

Like, why like, there's a why has nobody why has nobody written this, and why has, and why do why do you need it now?

时机也很重要。

There's also the nowness is really important.

为什么这本书恰逢其时？

Why does this book meet the moment?

为什么它正是当下最合适的书？

Why is it the right book for the right time?

有很多好书只是时机不对。

There are plenty of books that are good books that are in the wrong time.

那么，为什么这本书是恰逢其时的呢？

So why is it the right book for the right time?

所以，你不仅要讲清楚，而且我认为出版商也很喜欢听这本书是如何找到你的故事。

And so that so you just and and then also I think publishers tend to like the story of how it came to you.

关于时机，比如，我意识到我自己一直在做各种时机上的决定。

So for timing, it was like, you know, I realized that I was making all kinds of timing decisions myself.

对于那本关于销售的书《销售就是人性》，这个想法是突然冒出来的：天哪。

For the book about sales, To Sell Is Human, it was kind of me coming to this idea like, God dang it.

我其实一直在不停地推销。

I am just selling all the time.

对。

Right.

就像，我根本不知道自己在做什么。

Like like, and I don't know what I'm doing.

对。

Right.

所以就有了这一点。

And so there was that.

关于遗憾的那本书，我当时其实正在写一本完全不同的书。

For the book about regret, I was actually working on an entirely different book at the time.

我去参加了我女儿的大学毕业典礼，当时经历了一种轻微的危机，有种灵魂出窍的感觉，我简直不敢相信这个孩子竟然已经大学毕业了，因为她才刚出生不久。

And I went to my daughter's college graduation and basically had a kind of a crisis of sorts, mild crisis where kind of an out of body experience where I just couldn't believe this kid was graduating from college because she was just born.

我也不敢相信自己已经老到可以拥有一个大学毕业的孩子了。

And I couldn't believe I was old enough to have a kid graduating from college.

于是我开始思考自己上大学时的遗憾，虽然不多，但确实有一些。

And I started thinking about my own regrets about college, which were not many, but there were some.

我希望自己当时能更努力一些。

And I wish I had worked harder.

我希望自己能对人更友善一些。

I wish I had been kinder to people.

这真的让我印象深刻，因为我一直在思考，当你的孩子大学毕业时，这是人生中的一个重要标志。

And, and it really stuck with me these I was really thinking about it because it's a marker in your life when you have a kid graduates from college.

我回来后，因为提到你之前的观点，我喜欢交流想法，于是我跟一些朋友说：‘这真值得思考，关于我的遗憾，’这让我有点沮丧。

And I came back, and because to your earlier point, I like socializing ideas, I was like, God, I told some of my friends, it's like, yeah, something to think about, like my regrets, and it's like, sort of bums me out.

我带着些许犹豫做了这件事，因为我知道没人想谈论遗憾。

And I did it with some trepidation, because I knew nobody wanted to talk about regret.

于是我非常羞怯地提了一下，结果发现每个人都想谈这个话题。

And so I mentioned it very sheepishly, and then I discovered that everybody wanted to talk about it.

一旦我坦白了，别人也纷纷坦白了。

That once I divulged it, other people divulged it.

而且，正如你所说的那样

Well, also in the way that

你这本书的表述方式，确实让很多人对此感兴趣。

you frame the book, it's very much, you know, a lot of people are interested in this.

遗憾是一个很多人都想谈论的话题，但我们通常以那种方式谈论它，而这里有一个机会，可以用这种方式来讨论它。

Regret is a topic that a lot of people want to talk about, but we talk about it like that, and there's an opportunity to talk about it like this.

我认为这是很重要的一部分

And I think that that's an important part

你当时是这样的，所以我做的是，我正在写一本关于这个的书。

of That you're was the and so what I did is I there was this book I was working on.

我的出版商以为我正在写一本关于A的书。

My publisher thinks I'm working on book a.

他们完全不知道我其实正在经历一场关于遗憾的平淡的中年危机。

And they had no idea that I was that I was going through sort of this this dull midlife crisis about regret.

于是我开始研究关于遗憾的研究，心想，哇。

And so I started looking at the research on regret and saying, wow.

实际上这里有不少内容。

There's actually a fair amount here.

这确实相当有趣。

It's actually it's actually pretty interesting.

它是跨学科的，这正是我喜欢的。

It's multidisciplinary, which I like.

于是我写了一个全新的提案。

And and so I wrote an entirely new proposal.

于是，那位原本以为能拿到几章内容的编辑，收到了我发来的一份关于一本完全不同的书的提案。

And so this editor who thought maybe they were gonna get a couple of chapters gets an email from me with a proposal for an entirely different book.

那你从后悔中学到了什么？现在最让你印象深刻的是什么？

Well, what'd you learn about regret that that like, what sticks out to you now

哦，天哪。

about oh, man.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

第一点是，每个人都有后悔。

So number one is that everybody has regrets.

这是人类最常见的情感之一。

It's one of the most common emotions that human beings have.

是的，人们总说‘毫无遗憾’。

Yeah, people always say no regrets.

呃，是的，我确实有几个遗憾

Like, No, I definitely have a few

不。

no.

这本书的第一章名为《无悔人生的荒谬之处》。

The first chapter of the book is called The Life Changing Nonsense of No Regrets.

这是一种表演。

It's an act.

因此，遗憾是人类最普遍的体验之一，如果我们正确对待它，它也可能非常有用。

So it's one of the most ubiquitous experiences that humans have, and it's also can be one of the useful if we treat it right.

我们有大量的证据表明，遗憾是一种变革性的情感，能影响从谈判到解决问题，再到寻找生命意义的方方面面。

We have piles of evidence showing that it's a transformative emotion for, everything from negotiation to problem solving to finding meaning in life.

而我们所犯的错误——这是一种美国式的错误——就是我们被灌输了一种观念：应该永远积极，永远不要消极，永远向前看，永远不要回头，但这完全是错误的建议。

And the prob what what what the the mistake that we've made, and it's an American mistake, is that we have been taught kind of indoctrinated to think that we should always be positive and never be negative, to always look forward and never look back, And that's just bad advice.

我们应当大多数时候保持积极。

What we should be we should be positive most of the time.

积极的情绪很好，但我们确实需要一些负面情绪，因为它们具有指导意义。

Positive emotions are great, but we want some negative emotions because they're instructive.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我们有时应该回头看看，因为从过去中我们可以学到东西。

And and so, and we should look backwards sometime because we can learn from looking backward.

因此，我们需要从某种角度来平衡的是，我们被教导要忽视自己的遗憾。

And so what we need to triangulate in a sense is that we've been taught to ignore your regrets.

这是个糟糕的主意。

Terrible idea.

当这种方法不起作用时，人们就会沉溺于自己的遗憾中。

When that doesn't work, people end up wallowing in their in their regrets.

更糟糕的是，我们真正应该做的是直面自己的遗憾，正视它们，把它们当作信息和数据来利用。

A worse idea, what we should be doing is confronting our regrets, looking them in the eye, using them as information, using them as data.

当我们这样做的时候，大量证据表明，这是一种非常非常有益的情绪。

And when we do that, we have piles of evidence showing that it's a very, very helpful emotion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你刚才说你喜欢那些素材来源具有跨学科性质的书籍。

You had just said that you like when the source material for a book is interdisciplinary.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

因为，我看到的情况是，作为通才的优势在于，不同的研究领域常常在问非常相似的问题，却从不交流。

Because, what I see happening, this is the the the advantage of being a generalist, is that you have different domains of research often asking very similar questions and never ever talking to each

彼此。

other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而它们之间没有任何共识。

And what they're There's no consilience.

没错。

Exactly.

他们发现，这些成果在某些方面彼此高度一致。

What they're finding is act is in in some ways very consistent with each other.

它们彼此和谐，但学术界却没有一个地方能把这些整合起来。

It's in harmony with each other, And, there isn't a place in the academy that puts that all together.

这依赖于通才来指出：你们有没有意识到，时间生物学家关于清醒周期的发现，也与判断与决策学者关于选择的研究，以及运动心理学家关于运动表现的发现相吻合。

It re it relies on generalists in some ways to come and say, hey, you realize that what the the chronobiologists are finding about wakefulness cycles are also what the the judgment and decision making scholars are finding about choices and also what the sports psychologists are finding about athletic performance.

当然。

Sure.

你知道吗？

You know?

就好像你们这些人真的应该见一面，但他们从不见面，因为每个人都困在自己的领域里。

And it's like like, you guys should really meet, but they don't because they're all in their they're all in their world.

比如，发展心理学家。

I mean, you have the developmental psychologist.

从来不和认知心理学家交流。

Don't talk to the cognitive psychologist.

你也不会去跟社会心理学家交流。

You don't talk to the social psychologist.

更不用说去跟经济学家交流了。

Let alone talk to economists.

更不用说去跟麻醉学领域的研究人员交流了。

Let alone talk to people doing research in anesthesiology.

所以，有人能进来这么说，我喜欢这一点，因为我认为它揭示了那些真实的东西。

And so someone who can come in and go so so I like that because I think it I think it unearths things that are true.

我认为它揭示了对人们有意义的东西。

I think it unearths things that are meaningful to people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的，没错。

Well, yeah.

你把自己描述为一名翻译。

You describe yourself as a translator.

是的。

Yeah.

学者们通常面向高度专业化的受众，而且常常使用他们自己的专业术语。

The academics are often speaking to highly specialized audiences, and they often speak in their own coded vernacular.

如果你能双语交流，那

And if you can be bilingual, that

可能会很有帮助。

could be helpful.

你为什么选择成为作家？

Why did you choose to become a writer?

同样，出于我永无止境地向年轻人传授人生经验的动机，我经历的是这样一件事。

Again, in my never ending quest to hand out life lessons to the youngsters out there, what happened to me was this.

尽量简短一点。

Try to be brief here.

我去了法学院，当时并没有想成为作家。

I went to law school and no desire to be, not thinking that I would be a writer.

尽管我有一些预感。

Although I had some inklings.

我从未打算成为作家。

I I never set out to be a writer.

我去法学院是因为，你知道，那像是一个备选方案，而且我对政治感兴趣。

I went to law school because, know, it was like something to fall back on and because I was interested in politics.

我在从事政治工作时发现，我私下里一直在写文章。

And what I found in working in politics is that I was writing articles on the side.

我的工作非常繁重，但我还是在私下写文章。

Like, I had a tough I had some pretty freaking demanding jobs, and yet I would be writing articles on the side.

在法学院期间，我确实做了一些作业，但同时也为《哈特福德 Courant》报撰写社论，内容与法律无关。

Turned out that in in in law school, I was writing, doing some amount of homework, but I was also writing op eds for the Hartford Courant, you know, about things unrelated to law.

在大学时，我主修语言学，有点像认知科学的分支，但我同时也写短篇小说。

When I was in college, I was a linguistics major, kind of a very sort of, like, for quasi cognitive science major, and and yet I was also writing short stories.

所以这就像一种爱好，就像有些人打高尔夫一样。

And so but sort of like a hobby, like some people play golf.

这就像我只是在做一件我一直在做的事。

It's like, this is just this thing that I do.

挺有趣的。

It's kind of fun.

随着年龄增长，我逐渐意识到，我当初当作副业做的这件事，其实才是我真正该做的事。

And what I realized as I got older and older is that this thing I was doing on the side was actually what I should be doing.

这才是正事。

That's the main event.

没错。

Yeah.

这就像在告诉我，我应该做什么。

And it's like basically the the it's telling me what I should be doing.

我觉得你天生就该当个作家。

And like like, oh, I think you're constituted to be a writer.

比如，当你在政治领域从事这些繁重的工作时，你却在午夜11点半还在为《乔治》杂志写文章——如果你还记得《乔治》杂志的话，那是约翰·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 在九十年代创办的一本政治杂志。

Like if you are working in these demanding jobs in politics and you are at 11:30 at midnight writing an article for, you know, George Mag if you remember George Magazine that which came out was a John F Kennedy Junior's political magazine in the in the nineteen nineties.

你为《乔治》杂志免费写文章，因为你身为政府雇员不能拿任何报酬。

You're writing an article for George for free because you can't take any money because you're a government employee.

这对你真正该做什么来说是一个非常强烈的信号。

That's a pretty strong signal about what it is you do.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以我说，我不是在说我要成为一名作家。

And so that's why I said, it's like, I'm not saying, I'm going to be a writer.

更像是，哇。

It's sort of like, wow.

跳出你自己，看看你都在做些什么。

Step outside yourself and watch what you do.

然后你会想，老兄，我觉得你是个作家。

And it's like, dude, I think that you're a writer.

我觉得你并不是一个搞政治的人。

Like, I don't think you're a political person.

我认为你是个作家。

I think that you're a writer.

然后，你知道，尤其是在我从事政治工作的时候，过了几年后，我非常清楚那不是我想用余生去做的事情。

And then, you know, especially working in politics when I was like, I I it was pretty clear to me after several years that that was not what I wanted to do with the rest of my life.

于是我更倾向于做我私下在做的事情，也就是提出自己的想法，独自工作，为自己工作。

And then I was more inclined to do what I was doing on the side, which is come up with my own ideas, work by myself, work for myself.

所以这更像是，我发现了自己是谁，而不是先有明确的意图和目标，然后去执行它。

And so it was a it was a it sort of I discovered that that's who I was rather than saying rather than than having a clear intention and a goal and setting out to execute against that.

当我想到你的过程、你的方法时，其中一个核心要点是你所说的：慢慢阅读，慢慢写作。

It seems like when I think of your process, when I think of your approach, one of the core things to understand is you say read slowly, you write slowly.

我非常慢。

I'm very slow.

因此，这需要的是一种持续性，而不是强度。

So then there's a certain consistency rather than intensity that's demanded from this.

乌龟赢了。

The tortoise won.

我们就这么说吧。

Let's just put it that way.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以我是一只乌龟，不是兔子。

And so I'm a tortoise, not a hare.

我花上

Takes me a

很长时间来做事情。

long time to do stuff.

好的。

Okay.

所以给我讲讲你的研究吧。

So talk me through the research.

你如何进行研究，既能保持严谨又不

How do you do research in a way that's rigorous without

被分散注意力而迷失其中？

getting distracted and lost in it?

你确实容易被分散注意力而迷失其中。

You can get distracted and lost in it.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no question about that.

尤其是在看学术研究时，总会有一个时刻，某种意义上，你会直觉地觉得，好吧。

There's a there's a there's a there's a moment when especially when you're looking at academic research, there's a moment it's sort of it's it's intuitive in a way where you feel like, okay.

我以前听过这个。

I've heard this before.

我以前听过这个。

I've heard this before.

我以前听过这个。

I've heard this before.

那就是你该停止的时候。

And that's when you stop.

在《遗憾》这本书里，你也必须严格筛选所包含的内容。

There also was I had in the the in the regret book, you also have to be rigorous about what you include.

所以在《遗憾》这本书中，我花了大约三到四周的时间，研究遗憾在儿童身上是如何发展的。

So in the regret book, for instance, I spent probably three weeks, maybe four, looking at the research in how regret develops in children.

儿童什么时候学会什么是遗憾？

When do children learn to what regret is?

儿童什么时候学会反事实思维？

When do children learn counterfactual thinking?

我积累了大量这类研究资料，对儿童大脑如何发展以产生遗憾有了深入的了解。

I had just piles and piles of that research, and I knew a lot about like the learned a lot about the child development of how children's brains change in order to experience regret.

好吧？

Okay?

我开始写那部分了。

I started writing that.

你知道观众需要什么吗？

You know what the audience needed?

你知道读者需要什么吗？

You know what the readers needed?

他们需要一段关于这个的内容。

They needed a paragraph on that.

他们不需要更多关于这个的内容了。

They didn't need any more on that.

我心想：糟了。

And I'm like, shit.

但我花了这么多时间在这上面。

But I spent all this time on this.

但你必须知道该包含什么、不该包含什么。

But so you have to know what to you have to know what to include and what not to include.

而且你还得多方验证，比如什么是可信的。

You And also have to triangulate about like what's, what, you know, what, what's credible.

如果我看到一篇来自冷门期刊的论文说，穿绿色袜子能让人更有创造力。

If someone, if I see one paper from an obscure journal that says that, that, that wearing green socks makes you more creative.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

哇，多好的结论啊。

Like, what a great takeaway.

但如果这是唯一一篇关于绿色袜子和创造力的论文，那我就对它持一点怀疑态度。

But if it's the only paper on green socks and creativity, then I'm a little bit more skeptical about it.

我们都清楚，其实是黄色袜子。

It's we all know it's yellow socks.

对吧。

Right.

但如果你看看关于接触自然及其对幸福感影响的大量研究，你会觉得这里面确实有东西。

But then if you look at things like, if you look at the piles of research about the importance of being in nature and what that does for well-being, and you're like, okay, there's something here.

如果你看看关于散步的研究，我的意思是，关于散步的研究简直令人难以置信。

If you look at there's some just the research on even on walking, I mean, there's the research on walking is unbelievable.

比如，有一项著名的研究，他们让一些人坐在椅子上，另一些人站在跑步机上。

Like, you have you put there's a famous study where they put people in a chair, and they put people on a treadmill.

这是一项实验室研究。

Like, this is a laboratory.

你坐在椅子上，那边则是一台跑步机。

Like, you're sitting in a chair, and over here, there's a treadmill.

他们进行了物体的替代用途测试，也就是给某人一件普通的物品，比如一块砖。

And they they do the alternative uses for object tests, which is basically give somebody something mundane, a brick.

你能想到这块砖有多少种不同的用途吗？

How many different uses can you have for the brick?

好吧。

Okay.

你可以用它。

You can use it.

这是对创造力的测试。

It's a test of creativity.

你可以用它当门挡。

You can use it as a doorstop.

你可以用它当梯子，去够那些够不到的东西。

You can use it as a step ladder to reach something you can't you can't read.

你可以用它当镇纸。

You can use it as a paperweight.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以你只是产生各种替代用途，这纯粹是衡量创造力的一种方式。

So you just generate alternative so it's a it's just a measure of creativity.

在跑步机上走路的人产生的想法数量是坐在椅子上的人的三倍。

The people who are walking on a treadmill generated, like, three times as many ideas as the people sitting in a chair.

哇。

Wow.

难以置信。

It's unbelievable.

他们只是在实验室的跑步机上。

They're just in a treadmill in a laboratory.

所以所有这些都说明，有些事情的证据来自不同学科，它们传达的信息至少是相互呼应的，因此你最终会采用这些信息。

So all of which is to say is that there are some things where the evidence is coming from different disciplines and it's saying something that at least rhymes with each other, and so you you end up using that.

作家们对自己最大的谎言是：哦，我以后会记得的。

The biggest lie that writers would tell themselves is, oh, I'll remember that later.

不。

No.

我的意思是，我经常听播客时想保存一些内容，但最终却从不保存，因为打字到手机里太麻烦了，你知道吗？

I mean, there's so many times when I'm listening to a podcast, I wanna save something, and I just never end up saving it because typing it into the phone is just too much work, you know?

我找到了解决这个问题的好办法。

Well, I found a great solution to that problem.

它叫 Podcast Magic，是本集的赞助商。

It's called Podcast Magic, and they're the sponsor of this episode.

所以，操作非常简单。

So what you do, super easy.

假设你正在 Apple 或 Spotify 上收听，如果听到这段对话中你特别喜欢的部分，只需截个图，然后发送到 podcastmagic@sublime.app。

Say you're listening on Apple or on Spotify, if you find a bit in this conversation that you really like, just take a screenshot of it and then email it to podcastmagic@sublime.app.

如果你在一分钟后发送截图，你会收到一封回信，里面包含文字稿、上下文以及你需要的所有信息。

If you email it like a minute later, you'll get an email back with the transcript, the context, all the information that you need.

这样一来，你就不用手写记录所有内容了。

And then that way, you don't need to write down all the information.

所以，如果你在对话中发现特别喜欢的内容，不妨试试 Podcast Magic。

So if you find something in the conversation that you really like, well, check out podcast magic.

好了。

Alright.

我们开始采访吧。

Let's get to the interview.

戏剧。

Plays.

那么，是什么让你对戏剧产生了兴趣？

So now what's drawn you to plays?

我一直非常喜欢去看戏剧。

I've always been a huge fan of going to plays.

我觉得，尤其是在当下，现场戏剧有一种特别的魅力，因为它是为数不多的让人们关掉手机的场所之一。

I I think there's something about live, especially now in this moment, live theater where it's it's basically one of the only places where people turn off their phones.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

即使在电影院——尽管现在去电影院的人越来越少——人们还是经常开着手机。

And even in movie theaters, to the extent people go to movies, even in movie theaters, people still have their phones on.

前几天看电影时，旁边那个女人整个一半时间都在玩自己的手机。

The movie the other night, the woman next person is on her own half the play or half the theater.

是的。

Yeah.

在戏剧中，这绝对是禁止的。

In plays, that is absolutely verboten.

就像那些剧院工作人员会进来把你赶出去。

Like, they will they will come in these theater people come and kick your ass

他们会拿着手电筒进来。

They come in with flashlights.

他们用手电筒照你。

So they go they shine a flashlight.

他们让你难堪。

They shame you.

所以，这里有一种不使用手机的社会规范。

So so it's so there's a social norm of no phones.

这实际上非常重要。

That's actually incredibly important.

你正在经历的，是观看台上真实的人在表演。

You are so what you're having is you're having an experience watching actual people up there.

明白吗？

Okay?

你不仅没有用手机，而且也没有在看屏幕。

Not only do you not have your phone, you're not watching a screen.

我们生活的大部分时间都在看屏幕。

So much of our lives are spent looking at screens.

舞台不是屏幕。

A stage is not a screen.

舞台是台上真实的人。

A stage is the real people up there.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以你拥有的是一种体验：你和其他人一起，注视着台上那些在特定瞬间表演的真人，而这个瞬间不会持续很久。

So what you have is you have this experience where you are with other human beings, looking at other human beings in a particular moment that's not going to last for very long.

这是超越性的。

That is transcendent.

一直如此。

It always has been.

这就是为什么戏剧存在了这么久。

That's why theater has been around for so long.

对我来说，在当下，这迫在眉睫。

To me, in this moment, it is urgent.

所以，就是这样，而且我还想要一个新的创作挑战。

And so that's that's so and then I also wanted the new creative I also wanted a new creative challenge.

写剧本和写书非常不同。

And writing plays is very different from writing books.

和写书非常不同。

Very different from writing books.

你觉得你用的是同样的工程思维吗？

Do you feel like you operate with the same engineering mindset?

是的。

Yes.

但我正在工程化一种不同的产品。

But I'm engineering a different product.

有趣的问题。

Interesting question.

记住，戏剧，你知道，写戏剧的人叫剧作家，w r I g h t。

So remember, plays, you know, someone who writes plays is a playwright, w r I g h t.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，从这个词本身就已经蕴含了你在创造某种东西的理念。

So there so already built into that is the idea that you are you are making something.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为你正在创造一种非常不同的东西。

So but I think you're making something very different.

这本身就是一个挑战。

So and which is a challenge.

对我来说，写一本书就像盖房子。

So for me, writing a book is like building a house.

它必须能站得住。

It has to stand up.

里面有很多不同类型的房间。

There's a lot there are different kinds of rooms.

这些房间之间必须有良好的流线，等等等等。

The rooms have to have some flow to them, etcetera, etcetera.

但你可以写，然后建造，你可以建一座漂亮的房子，之后再回头看，说：哦，洗手间本来应该放在这里的，但它依然是一座很棒的房子。

But you can write but then you can build a you can build a beautiful house and then look at it afterwards and say, ah, the powder room probably should have been here, but it's still a great house.

人们会想买下这栋房子。

People will want to buy the house.

这是一栋很棒的房子。

It's a great house.

这是一栋非常适合居住的房子。

It's a great house to live in.

你在这里那里会看到一些可能想改变的地方。

You see a few things here and there that you might want to change.

这就是盖房子。

That's building a house.

一部戏剧。

A play.

一部戏剧是立起来的。

A play is it is up.

我发现了这一点。

I discovered it.

写剧本就像制造一块手表。

Writing a play is like building a watch.

如果齿轮不咬合，它就根本无法运转。

If the gears don't click, it just isn't going to work.

而且几乎没有容错空间，因为你所处理的是叙事、故事讲述和人物塑造的高度浓缩，如果齿轮不能完美啮合，它就无法准确计时。

And it's there's there's very little margin for error because what you're dealing with is a is is is such a compression of narrative and a compression of storytelling and a compression of character that if the gears don't mesh perfectly, it's not gonna tell time.

所以，更确切地说，是的，这是一种工程，但你所工程的东西非常不同。

And so there's little more so it's a so so, yes, I I it's engineering, but you're engineering something very different.

你喜欢看什么样的戏剧？这些喜好如何影响了你所创作的戏剧类型？

What kind of plays do you like to watch, and how has that made its way into the kind of play that you're writing?

我的意思是，我来告诉你一件事。

I mean, I write here's the thing.

我写的是我想读的那种书。

It's like I write book, I write the kind of books that I would wanna read.

我写书的一个标准是：如果别人写了这本书，我是否会在第一周就想读它？

One of my criteria for writing a book is, if someone else had written this book, would I wanna read it the first week?

如果答案是否定的，那大概就不是我该写的书。

And, if the answer is no, then it's probably not a book I should write.

所以对于戏剧，我喜欢——你知道的，我喜欢音乐剧。

And so with plays, I like, I mean, I I'm, you know, I like musicals.

我不写音乐剧。

I don't write musicals.

我喜欢关于当代人的戏剧。

I like plays I like plays about contemporary people.

即使不一定非得是当代的，但主要是描绘生活在困境中的当代人，让我们思考作为地球上人类的意义。

It doesn't even have to be contemporary, but mostly contemporary people in challenging situations that give us something about what it means to be a human being on this planet.

我喜欢戏剧的另一个原因是，我又回到了这个词——压缩。

And what I like about plays also is the is is the he's coming back to this word this word kind of compression.

压缩。

Compression.

通常舞台上只有几个人，整个观众都聚焦在他们身上，你必须让这一刻真正奏效。

It's like there's, you know, often there are just a couple of people on stage and they're and and the whole audience is locked in on that, and you have to actually make that moment work.

没有喘息的空间。

There's there's no breathing room.

你无法拉远镜头。

There's no you can't pan out.

你不能改变这一点，你知道，你不能像在书里那样做某些事情。

You can't change this, you know, you can't set you you're the you you can't do some of the things that you can do in a book.

你只能让舞台上的那两个人做这些事。

You're you're stuck with those two people on stage doing things.

它必须具有那种可信度。

And it has to have the it has to have the it has to have, like, versomilitude.

它必须听起来像人们真实说话的样子。

It has to sound like people really talk.

但如果你听一段人们真实对话的转录，那会完全无聊。

But if you listen to a transcript of people actually talking, that's totally boring.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，写剧本的过程是一样的吗？

So Is it the same process of writing the play?

因为这是一种叙事。

Because it's a narrative.

比如，我会扔给你一些故意具有挑衅性的东西。

Like, I'll throw something at you that's intentionally provocative.

这是一个叙事。

It's a narrative.

你需要更多空间来深入叙事，因此写作时间需要更长。

You need more space to get into the narrative, so the writing sessions need to be longer because of that.

是也不是。

Yes and no.

是也不是。

Yes and no.

你知道，我两种方式都试过，甚至小说家们也有不同的做法。

You know, I I've tried it both ways, and people have even novelists have different ways.

有些小说家会详细列提纲。

There are novelists who outline everything.

有些小说家则完全随性而写。

There are novelists who just go with the flow.

我也试过随性而写，也试过详细规划，书籍创作也是如此。

And, I've tried going with the flow, and I've tried outlining outlining everything and sort of with same with train with the books.

我逐渐找到了中间路线：我需要对故事的发展方向有一个大致的把握。

It's like I've sort of settled in the middle where I need a I need a sense of where things are going.

我完全愿意偏离原计划，走向一个完全不同的结局，但我需要知道那个终点大致是什么样子。

Absolutely ready to go off on a totally detour and arrive at a different destination, but I need to know kind of what that destination is.

另一点是，戏剧是一种协作性很强的艺术形式。

The other thing is the other thing about plays is that it's a collaborative medium.

而书籍的协作性则要少得多。

Books are are much less of a collaborative medium.

写书的时候，基本上就是脑海里的想法直接落到纸上。

What you're doing is like with a book, it's like basically, oh, idea in my head hits the paper.

你把纸上的内容吸收进自己的脑海。

You get the paper and it goes into your head.

没错。

Yeah.

这是一个传递过程。

That's a transmission process.

戏剧是这样的：我脑海中的想法写在纸上，然后交给一群人去演绎，最后进入你的脑海。

With a play is idea in my head goes on a paper, then it gets handed to a bunch of other people who do stuff with it, and then it goes into your head.

所以，如何选角、演员的才华以及演员能为作品带来什么。

And so the how you cast a play, what kind of how talented the actors are, what an actor will bring to it.

我从演员身上学到了很多，因为我们做过我两部剧的朗读会，演员们会说：嘿。

I've learned so much from from actors who because we've done table reads of these of two of my plays, and the I learned so much from actors saying, hey.

你知道吗？

You know?

哦，这个情节对我来说说不通。

Oh, this doesn't make sense to me.

为什么这个人现在要做这件事？

It's like, why is this person doing this now?

我不知道。

I don't know.

而且，而且它还会以一种不同的方式活起来。

And, and, and then also it just comes alive in a different way.

当演员表演时，它不可避免地听起来和你脑海中想象的不一样。

It it it inevitably sounds different when actors are performing it than it sounded in your head.

理想情况下，它听起来会更好。

Ideally, it sounds better.

在大多数情况下，它会更好，因为演员们实际上是在提升它。

In most cases, it sounds better because they're actually they're actually elevating it.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你回到耶鲁或重返校园，开设一门关于你写作经验的研讨会，你会如何设计整个学期的课程？

You were to go back to Yale or go back to school and you were basically to give the seminar on what you've learned about writing, how do you structure that curriculum the semester?

你最想告诉人们的是什么？

What are the things that you wanna tell people?

我

I

我的意思是，我会从你平时都看些什么开始，我不知道能不能从这个说起，但艾伦，关键在于你吸收了什么？

mean, I would start with you know, in some I don't know if I could start with this, but I but Alan, critical to it would be what do you what do you ingest?

你摄入了什么？

What do you take in?

你读些什么？

What do you what do you read?

这一切始于吸收。

Starts with consumption.

没错。

Absolutely.

比如，你都在消费些什么？

Like, are you cons what are you consuming both?

你消费的既有高质量的内容，也有广泛的题材吗？

Are you consuming both quality and are you consuming breadth?

所以我认为这很重要。

And so I think that would I think that would be important.

另一个是，我会建议从短篇开始，然后再转向长篇。

The other one is I would talk about starting with shorter form before going to longer form.

积累经验。

To get your reps.

没错，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

我的意思是，我可以在十分钟内讲完一个为期一学期的研讨会，就一句话：多读多练。

I mean, I could do the seminar in, the semester long seminar in ten minutes by saying read a lot and get your reps.

这样你基本上就涵盖了80%的内容。

And you'd basically cover 80% of it.

我非常相信积累经验，基本上在所有事情上都是如此。

I'm a big believer in getting reps in basically, and basically in everything.

所以，作为年轻作家，你能做的最好的事就是多写。

And so the best thing you can do as a young writer is write a Write a lot.

同时也要培养对优质内容的判断力。

And also have, get a sense of what quality is.

学会如何形成你的品味。

Get a sense of how do you form your taste.

然后，如果你能有人给你优质、严厉且富有洞察力的反馈。

And then if you can have people give you good, hard, smart feedback.

这很难。

That's difficult.

我觉得这种反馈很罕见，所以你必须逐渐培养自己的判断标准，明白什么好、什么不好。

I don't, I don't, I feel like that's rare, but so you have to do is you have to begin over time developing your own test, knowing what's good and what's not good.

听我说，我在大学时选了几门专门关于写作的课程。

Listen, I took a, in college, took some courses specifically about writing.

它们不是文学课。

They weren't literature courses.

它们是关于写作的。

They were about writing.

我上了三门非常棒的课程。

I took three really fantastic courses.

其中一门课主要是写诗、写散文和短篇小说。

One was basically writing poetry, writing the essay, writing short stories.

写诗。

Writing poetry.

对。

Yeah.

有三门研讨课。

There were three seminar classes.

每门课大约有十一名学生和一名讲师。

There were probably 11 students in, one eleven students, one instructor.

所以在诗歌方面。

And so in the po yeah.

写诗的时候，你会先阅读诗歌，然后自己创作，并向大家展示。

Writing poetry was know, you would read poetry and then you would then you would write it and you present it to everybody.

教授基本上认为我诗歌分析能力不错，因为我擅长文本阅读。

And the professor the professor basically I was pretty good at the analysis of poetry because I'm a good text reader.

但教授基本上说：‘只要你答应再也不写诗了，我就给你一个A-。’

But the professor basically said, I'll give you an A minus if you promise never to write poetry again.

好吧？

Alrighty?

所以，你应该写一首诗

And so, you should write a poem

在你的剧里写一首诗来气他们。

in your play to spite them.

对。

Yeah.

写短篇小说真的非常有帮助，它让我在早期就学会了‘展示’而非‘讲述’。

The, writing the short story was really, really helpful about just sort of learning in an early way about showing rather than telling.

尤其是如果你受过正规教育，或者你特别擅长学业，你往往会很擅长告诉别人各种事情，却不太擅长向别人展示事物。

There's a tendency among especially, you know, if you're trained, if you especially if you're if you're if you end up being if you're someone who's pretty good at school is you get pretty good at telling people stuff, and you're less good at showing people stuff.

但对我而言最具变革性的课程，是查理·亚诺夫教授开设的散文写作课。

But the the transformative one for me was this course on writing the essay with a professor named Charlie Yarnoff.

有一段时间，我写了一篇随笔。

At one point, I had this essay.

我不记得它讲的是什么了，当时我卡住了。

I don't remember what it was about, and I was struggling.

我怎么也写不好。

I couldn't get it right.

于是我去找他聊聊，因为这门课非常注重实践。

And I went in to talk to him about it because it was pretty hands on.

这一点真的很棒。

It was really good in that way.

我当时带着一种工程师的思维，列出了十三个可以修改的地方。

And it's like and I, you know, Chris came in with like sort of engineering mindset of like 13 fixes that I could do.

他跟我说：‘把这一段挪到这里，那里也改一下’，然后他却说：‘老兄，老兄，先别急，冷静一下。’

Move this section over here, do this over here, and he's like, dude, dude, chill out of here a second.

他说：‘是啊，你根本不知道自己在想什么。’

It's like, yeah, you don't know what you think.

他说：‘哇。’

And he's and he said Wow.

他说，那是四十年前，三十八年前的事了，但我至今仍奉行不渝。

And he said he said to me, this is forty years ago, thirty eight years ago, and I still live by it.

他说，有时候你必须通过写作来理清思路。

He says, sometimes you have to write to figure it out.

这与我当时在学校学到的其他一切都不一样，那些东西基本上是：你有一个想法，有一个论点，有一个提纲，然后你就开始写。

And it was different from everything else that I had learned in school at that point, which is basically you have an idea, you have a thesis, you have an outline, and then you write.

但对我来说，我常常需要通过写作来理清思路。

And But for me, I often have to write to figure it out.

我常常需要通过写作来理清思路。

I often have to write to figure it out.

我当时就想：天啊，原来你可以这么做？

And it was like, oh my God, you're allowed to do that?

在大学时，我有一件事，说来奇怪，是在伦理课上。

I had this one thing that in college where, and of all things, ethics class.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我们得写一篇论文，我不知道发生了什么。

And we had to write an essay, and I don't know what happened.

我只是拖到了最后一刻之类的。

I just like waited till the last minute or something like that.

结果我写了一篇与我真实信念相反的论文。

And I ended up writing an essay saying the opposite of what I believed.

明白吗？

Okay?

你得对某件事表明立场。

Like my like you gotta take a stand on something.

但问题是，我可能真正相信的是那样。

But the thing is, is like what I probably believed was that.

在写的过程中，我意识到我其实相信的是另一种观点。

That in writing it, I figured out that I believe something different.

在伦理课上，我一直觉得这件事让我有点羞愧。

And I always felt like in all things in ethics class, I always felt sort of ashamed about that.

天啊。

It's like, my god.

我简直不敢相信我居然做了这种事。

I can't believe I just did this.

我基本上写了一些我并不认同的东西，但我其实认同，因为我写作是为了弄清楚自己的想法。

I basically wrote something that I don't agree with, but I actually did agree with it because I was writing to figure it out.

所以，通过写作来理清思路，我认为这是写作最令人愉悦的方面之一。

And so the idea of writing to figure things out is I think that one of the great joys of writing.

是的。

Yeah.

我曾经和泰勒·科文聊过，我们讨论了如何更好地思考之类的话题。

I was talking to Tyler Cowen once, and we were talking about how to think better and stuff like that.

他说，你能做的最好的事情之一，就是为你强烈反对的观点写出最具说服力的论据。

And he said one of the best things that you can do is write the most compelling argument you can for something you vehemently disagree with.

好吧，这不错。

Okay, that's good.

这句话一直印在我心里。

And that stuck with me.

你知道吗，我得说，这真是个了不起的练习。

You know what, I have to say That's a hell of an exercise.

你知道吗，正如我提到的，我上过法学院，从专业角度来说，我从那里学到的东西并不多，但有一件事是例外——律师的一项工作，也是法学院教给你的技能，就是能同时看到论点的正反两面。

You know what, as I mentioned, I did go to law school, and I like professionally, there's not a huge amount that I got out of it, except that one of the things that lawyers do, and one of the things that law school teaches you to do, is take both sides of an argument.

这非常重要。

And that is really important.

这可能是我在法学院学到的最有用的东西——能够站在双方立场思考问题的技能。

That is one of the, that might be the most useful thing I learned in law school was the skill of taking both sides of the argument.

所以，如果你参加像模拟法庭这样的活动，比如涉及宪法问题，然后抛硬币决定你代表哪一方。

So if you do something like a moot court or something like that, you know, on a constitutional issue, you know, and there's a coin flip.

就像是，好吧，你站在这一边，你站在那一边。

It's like, okay, you're on this side, you're on this side.

然后你就想，好吧，我能提出这个论点。

And it's like, okay, I can make that argument.

而且，如果你能预判对方的论点，我认为这是一项非常非常重要的技能。

And then also, if you're anticipating the other side's argument, I think that's a really, really valuable skill.

是的。

Yeah.

另一件事，我们之前谈过品味，你让我思考如何培养品味。

The other thing, we were talking about taste earlier on, and and you had me thinking about how do you develop taste.

我学到的最好的一件事之一是，我不知道该怎么说，你可以称之为‘一和十’。

One of the best things I've learned is, I don't know, you could call it, like, ones and tens.

想想你读过的书、看过的电影、欣赏过的艺术作品。

Like, think about books you've read, movies that you've watched, art that you've seen.

我觉得，实际上，你欣赏过的艺术作品是个很好的例子。

I think, actually, art that you've seen is a really good example.

因为当你走进艺术博物馆时，比如去大都会博物馆，有一种奇怪的文化观念，认为博物馆里的每一件展品都极其出色。

Because when you walk to an art museum, right, you go to the Met, there's this weird cultural idea that everything in the Met is incredible.

这座建筑里的所有作品都被视为西方文明的品质典范。

This is the paragon of quality for Western civilization in this building.

对吧？

Right?

而这一切想说的是，结果大多数人逛博物馆时，都带着一种麻木的反应：哦，是啊。

And all this is to say that what ends up happening is most people walk around with this sort of dulled sense of, oh, yeah.

还不错。

It's pretty good.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

还不错。

It's pretty good.

我们仿佛成了某种法国艺术鉴赏家。

Like, we're some sort of, like, French art connoisseur.

而实际上，我认为当你去艺术博物馆时，最好的做法是思考：好吧。

Whereas, actually, I think the best thing that you can do when you're an art museum is to think about, okay.

我真正喜欢的是什么？

What do I love?

但同时，有没有什么是我厌恶的、憎恨的？

But also, is there anything that I despised, anything that I loathed?

当你强迫自己不仅反思我喜爱什么，也反思我讨厌什么时。

And when you kind of force yourself to reflect on not just what I love, but also what did I hate?

我认为，这种有意识的反思过程会培养出一种辨别力，而辨别力是品味的上游。

I think the process of doing that consciously develops a sense of discernment, and discernment is the thing that's upstream of taste.

我同意你的观点。

I, I I agree with you.

而且，关于艺术，还有就是，对于写作来说，我觉得你得懂一些东西，你知道吗？

And, also, the the other thing about art and just for for for for for writing is, like, I think you need to know about you know?

我认为，要欣赏视觉艺术，你必须了解一些艺术史。

I think I think in order to appreciate visual art, you have to know something about art history.

墙上的这幅画并不是凭空出现的。

That this picture on the wall, this painting on the wall didn't just emerge.

它站在其他事物的肩膀上。

It's it's it stands on the shoulders of other things.

它之后还出现了其他类型的作品，这有助于你学习。

It was followed by other kinds of things, and that helps you that helps you learn things.

你经常会发现，在各自领域非常专业的人，都对这个领域了解甚多。

One of the things that you see about people who are really expert in their fields is they know a lot about the field.

一个经典的例子就是迈克·泰森。

Classic example of this is Mike Tyson.

你知道，迈克·泰森就像是拳击历史的百科全书。

You know, Mike Tyson is like this encyclopedia of knowledge about boxing history.

对。

Right.

因为他热爱拳击，而且对拳击了解很多。

Because he loves boxing and he knows a lot about boxing.

所以，你知道，如果你是个作家，你就应该对写作有很深的了解。

And so, you know, so people who are you know, if you're if you're a writer, you should know a lot about writing.

你还需要对作家们有深入的了解。

You should know a lot about writers.

所以，我认为培养品味的一种方式，就是对你所从事的行业保持尊重。

And so just I think that's a way to develop taste is to have respect for the profession that you're in.

在任何领域，确实都需要积累一定量的知识。

There really is a certain a certain just accumulation of quantity that you need at any field.

比如丹尼·迈耶，在他创办联合广场咖啡馆、最终成为谢克汉堡的创始人之前，他在书中提到，他曾不断旅行，一家接一家地去光顾餐厅。

Like Danny Meyer, before he went and started Union Square Cafe and became you know, ends up doing Shake Shack, He talks in his book about how he would just travel, and he'd just go to restaurants, go to restaurants, go to restaurants.

有几件事给我留下了深刻印象。

And there's a few things that stuck out to me.

第一件事是在意大利帕尔马，我尝到了一种巴萨米克醋，我根本不知道巴萨米克醋还能有这种味道。

The first was it had this balsamic vinegar in Parma, Italy, and I just didn't know that balsamic could even taste like that.

它完全超出了我对现实的认知范围。

Like, it wasn't on my map of reality.

我不知道这竟然存在。

I didn't know that this existed.

我觉得，在很多地方，人们都会有一种惊叹感，原来可以这么好；对作家来说，这种惊叹感也同样存在。

And I think that there's a sense of wow, I didn't know it could be so good in a lot of places, but also for writers, this sense of wow.

我不知道写作还可以这样去对待。

I didn't know that you could approach the craft that way.

我不知道文章还可以这样结构。

I didn't know that you could structure it like that.

我不知道句子还可以这样写。

I didn't know that you could use that sentence format.

哇。

Wow.

这真的深深打动了我。

That really speaks to me.

对。

Right.

我打算试试。

I'm gonna try that.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

你是怎么收集的呢？我的意思是，作为作家和写作老师，你是怎么收集优秀写作范例的？

How do you collect I mean, as a writer, writing teacher, how do you collect examples of good writing?

你有系统的方法来做这件事吗？

Do have a systematic way to do that?

我只是把它们全部丢进一个巨大的表格里。

I just dump them all in a giant sheet.

我有精彩的段落，也有好的开头，我就把它们分别放到这两个地方。

I have fun paragraphs, and I have good introductions, and I just put them in both of those places.

对，对，对，没错，没错。

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

你有记摘录本吗？

Do you keep a commonplace book?

我嘛，从技术定义上可能不算，但我就是有两个笔记，往里面塞了大量东西。

I Nothing, maybe in terms of the technical definition, but I just have two notes, and I just dump so many things in there.

很多时候，如果我的写作显得枯燥，我会去读这些笔记，然后想：好吧，我能模仿其中一个段落、这种风格，或者 whatever 吗？

And then a lot of times, if my writing feels dull, I'll try to read those, and I'll be like, okay, can I pattern match one of these paragraphs, this style, whatever it is?

这就像是一个各种语气和写法的菜单。

It's like a menu of different voices and things that I can do.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.