法里德·扎卡里亚：如何撰写非虚构作品｜我的写作方法

你能获得一种X光般的视角，看清一部作品是如何被构建的。

And you get a kind of x-ray vision into how a body of work is crafted.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而且，你对这本书的最初印象会逐渐让位于一种更深入的分析或研究视角。

And also, lose your first impression of the book gives way to a much more kind of analytic or study.

这一点在小说中也同样成立。

And this is true in fiction as well.

我刚刚做了一个播客，聊了我最喜爱的书，那就是《了不起的盖茨比》。

I just did a podcast about my favorite book, and it was The Great Gatsby.

让我印象深刻的是，第一次读《盖茨比》时，你会有一种反应。

And what I'm struck by is the first time you read The Gatsby, you have one reaction.

但当你十年后或五年后再读，对我而言，我读了好几遍才逐渐意识到，这种文字是多么优美，写作技艺是多么精湛。

And then when you read it ten years later or five years later, and for me, it took several readings to begin to just realize how beautiful the writing was, the craft of the writing.

也许这只是我一个人的感觉，但我花了好一段时间才终于想到：这个28岁的人，是怎么写出这样的文字的？

Maybe it's just me, but it took me a while to get to the point where I was just thinking to myself, how did this guy at 28 write like this?

他写这本书的时候才28岁。

He was 28 when he wrote grad school.

哇。

Wow.

当你从这个角度去思考，想到其中情感表达的成熟度时，这和我最初读它时的感受完全不同。

When you think about it in those terms and you think about the maturity of the emotional expression there, And that, for some reason, is not what I thought of when I first encountered it.

那完全是另一回事。

It was a completely different thing.

就像第一次读的时候，你试图搞清楚，情节是什么？

It's like the new thing, you're trying to figure out, what's the plot?

黛西会怎么样？

What's going to happen to Daisy?

你知道的，就是那些事。

What's you know?

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

所以我们现在在讨论如何完成你的写作？

So we're talking about how do you get your writing done?

如果你在思考工作以及如何在工作中提高效率，我推荐一个叫Basecamp的工具。

And if you're thinking about work and how you can be more productive there, well, I recommend a tool called Basecamp.

Basecamp是一个项目管理工具，它和其他那些嘈杂、混乱的工具不同。

Basecamp is a project management tool, and it's different from the other ones, which are loud and noisy and cluttered.

它们功能过剩。

They're feature bloat.

Basecamp说：不。

Basecamp says, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们会保持简单，让你能专注于真正重要的事情，也就是把工作做完，你知道的？

We're gonna keep things simple so that you can focus on what actually matters, which is just getting the work done, you know?

对我们来说，Basecamp 是一个地方，我们可以在这里追踪我写作时的进展、剧集录制的时间和地点、发布日期，以及所有这些事项，让整个团队都能看到。

Now for us, Basecamp is a place where we can track what we're doing with how I write, when episodes are being recorded, where we're recording them, the publishing day, all those sorts of things in one place for our entire team to look at.

我邀请了 Basecamp 的创始人杰森·弗里德上节目，我注意到他非常重视写作。

And I had the founder of Basecamp, Jason Fried, he came on the show, and I noticed that he really cares about writing.

他重视宣言。

He cares about manifestos.

他重视优秀的文案。

He cares about great copy.

他重视讲好一个故事。

He cares about telling a great story.

他和他的联合创始人一共写了五本书。

And him and his co founder, they've written five books.

我可以告诉你，他们写书时投入的用心和细致程度，和他们做软件时一模一样。

And I can tell you that they bring the same care and attention to detail to their books as they do their software.

所以如果你在思考工作，想知道如何才能更高效？

So if you're thinking about work and you're asking, Hey, how can I be more productive?

如何让你的团队更有凝聚力？

How can I make my team more cohesive?

那我推荐你用Basecamp。

Well, I recommend Base Camp.

好的。

All right.

回到本期节目。

Back to the episode.

你怎么

How do you

你觉得你对盖茨比的热爱最终体现在你的工作中了吗？

think your love for Gatsby has ended up in your work?

说实话，这是一种对美国的热爱。

It's a love of America, to be honest.

我在美国读的《了不起的盖茨比》。

I read Gatsby in America.

我从印度来到美国，在那里长大。

I came to America from India, where I grew up.

我之前读过的书，虽然在印度接受了良好的教育，但主要是英国文学，因为印度曾是英国的殖民地。所以我刚进入耶鲁大学时，从未读过海明威或菲茨杰拉德的作品。

And the reading I had done, I had a good education in India, but it was mostly British because India was a former colony of the British So I had never read Hemingway Fitzgerald when I got to Yale as an undergraduate.

我读的都是《evil and war》啊，还有吉卜林之类的英国作家。

I had read, you know, Evil and War, and, you know, Kipling and all those kinds of British writers.

所以我决定自己补习美国文化。

And so I wanted to educate myself in America.

我选修了几门美国历史课程，读了很多美国文学作品。

And I took a bunch of courses in American history, and I read a lot of American literature.

我发现《了不起的盖茨比》其实是一个关于美国梦的故事。

And what I found about Gatsby was I thought it was really a story about the American dream.

这是一个关于这个男人非凡抱负的故事，以及他想要抛在身后那段复杂的过去。

It was the story about the extraordinary aspirations of this guy, the complicated reality of his past that he wanted to leave behind.

某种程度上，盖茨比的旅程就是移民的旅程。

And in a way, Gatsby's journey is an immigrant's journey.

就像你抛下过去，来到大城市，试图重塑自己。

It's like you're leaving the past, you're coming to the big city, you're trying to remake yourself.

当然，最终这背后有一种悲剧色彩。

And ultimately, there's a tragic element to it, of course.

没有任何梦想能够完全实现。

No dream is ever completely fulfilled.

而他的故事，最终以悲剧收场。

And of course, in his one, ends in tragedy.

但我在大学期间，渐渐爱上了美国。

But I kind of fell in love with America when I was an undergraduate.

我认为盖茨比正是这种精神的体现。

I think Gatsby is very much part of that.

而我对美国的这种热爱，我认为确实影响了我的思维方式。

And that love of America, I think, does inform my way.

我的意思是，当我写作时，事实上，你提到的那篇我刚写的文章，我收到了大量评论，如果你看评论区，会有很多来自左派的攻击，说我对于美国权力在美国的描述过于温和。

Mean, I find, when I write, in fact, the column you mentioned that I just did, I got lots of, if you look at the comments, there are lots of attacks from the left saying, You have such a benign view of American power in America.

你忘记越南和伊拉克，以及我们做过的那些可怕的事情了吗？

Have you forgotten about Vietnam and Iraq and all the terrible things we did?

我有一个严肃的分析性回答：和什么相比？

I have a serious analytic answer to it, which is compared to what?

在我看来，美国是现代历史上最优秀的超级大国或大国，因为我拿它和德意志帝国、希特勒的德国、苏联、毛泽东时代的中国、法兰西帝国和大英帝国作比较。

America has been, in my opinion, the best superpower or great power in modern history because what I'm comparing it to is the Kaiser's Germany and Hitler's Germany and the Soviet Union and Mao's China and the French Empire and the British Empire.

你不能把美国的全部力量加到哥斯达黎加身上。

You can't compare The United States added all its power to Costa Rica.

但其中有一部分是，你知道，我是个移民，我爱上了美国，我认为美国在国际舞台上比大多数其他国家做得更好。

But there's some piece of it, which is you know, I'm an immigrant who fell in love with America, and I do think America has done better on the world stage than most other countries.

我对此有一种情感上的依恋，一种吸引力，你知道的，还为此感到自豪。

And I feel a sort of an affection for it, a pull for it, you know, and a pride in that.

你知道，这就是为什么当马斯克或他的追随者彻底解散美国国际开发署时，我感到如此难过。

You know, that's one of the reasons I was so sad when Musk or whatever, his minions just completely dismantled USAID.

因为我认为，美国是历史上最富裕的国家，同时也是最慷慨的国家，这一点令人无比自豪——它以极低的成本拯救了非洲最贫困人群数千万的生命，帮助他们对抗艾滋病和结核病。

Because I thought, you know, it's a matter of great pride that The United States is the richest country in the history of the world, and also the most generous country in the history of the world, that it was saving tens of millions of lives of the poorest people in the world in Africa, saving them from AIDS, saving them from TB at very, very low cost to us.

因此，我强烈地感受到美国的独特性。

And so I have this very strong sense of a sense that The United States is special.

当你思考自己想成为什么样的作家、领袖、知识分子时，有哪些记者是你真正敬仰的？

Who were the journalists, as you thought about who you wanted to be as a writer, as a leader, as an intellectual, all those sorts of things, who are the people who you really look to?

我很想知道，他们是谁？

And I'm curious to hear, who were they?

你从他们身上学到了什么，并将其融入了自己的作品中？

And what is the thing that you took from them that you've kind of incorporated into your work?

二十世纪最伟大的美国记者可能是沃尔特·李普曼。

So the greatest American journalist of the twentieth century is probably Walter Lippmann.

他活跃于二十世纪初，职业生涯极为丰富。

And there's a wonderful- He's early twentieth century, He'd spanned So he has an extraordinary career.

在哈佛大学读本科时，他曾师从哲学家乔治·桑塔亚那。

As an undergraduate at Harvard, he studies with George Santayana, the philosopher.

到二十多岁时，他创办了《新共和》杂志，并撰写了威尔逊总统著名的十四点纲领。

By the time he's in his 20s, he founds the New Republic and writes Woodrow Wilson's 14 Points, the famous 14 Points that he

哇。

Wow.

此后，他成为20世纪60年代美国最具影响力的专栏作家。

And goes on to become the most influential columnist in America through the '60s.

吉姆·约翰逊过去常向他请教越南战争的对策。

Jim Johnson used to call him in to get his advice on the Vietnam War.

在那个年代，作为报纸专栏作家，你每周要写三到四篇文章。

And in those days, when you were a newspaper columnist, you were writing between three to four times a week.

这真是非同寻常。

So it was extraordinary.

他在这期间还写了很多书。

And he wrote a bunch of books along the way.

那本书叫《道德的前提》。

That's a book, A Preface to Morals.

《道德的前提》，一本在20年代爵士时代写就的惊人之作。

Preface to Morals, an amazing book written in the 20s during the jazz age.

它探讨了他认为在现代世界中的核心困境：我们失去了对信仰、传统和社群的确定性，因此感到无所依托，却尚未找到替代之物。

And it's about the central dilemma he said in the modern world is that we have lost the certainty of faith, of tradition, of community, and we are unmoored by that, and we haven't found something to replace it.

想想我们今天所生活的世界，对吧？

And think about the world we're living in today, right?

我们依然活在那个世界里。

We are still in that world.

我从他身上学到的是，你可以既是一名记者，又是一名知识分子，既能应对日常事务，又能放眼未来，撰写书籍，以更宏观的视角思考问题。

And what I got from him was the idea that you could be a journalist and you could be an intellectual as well, that there was a way to be addressing day to day issues, but you could also be looking over the horizon and writing books and thinking about it in these broader terms.

我认为他很可能在很多方面都是如此，一位名叫罗纳德·斯蒂尔的人为他写了一部精彩的传记。

And I think he was probably in many There's a wonderful biography of his by a guy named Ronald Steele.

这本书叫《沃尔特·李普曼与美国世纪》。

It's called Walter Lippmann and the American Century.

这是一部精彩的思想史，从20年代到60年代或70年代，通过这位人物的一生展现了美国的发展。

And it's a great intellectual history of America from basically the '20s to the '60s or '70s, told through the life of this one guy.

而更近一些，我想说，我非常钦佩乔治·威尔，因为他同样具备这种既是记者又是

And then more recently, I would say the people who I I mean, I really admired George Will because again, he had this quality of being I both a journalist and

我五年前参加过他的一场演讲。

went to a talk that he gave about five years ago.

我想是惠特曼说过，我对这个话题还没想清楚，因为我还没写过它。

I think it was Whitman who said, I don't know what I think on that subject because I haven't written about it yet.

我去听了那场演讲。

Met this talk.

演讲是在奥斯汀的林登·约翰逊图书馆举行的。

It's at the LBJ Library in Austin.

我这辈子从未听过有人如此清晰地展现出他通过写作所思考的内容，而他现在正把这些想法传达给我。

Never in my life had I heard somebody who so clearly had thought in writing and was now giving me the the things that he had written.

我这样说并不是负面的意思。

And I don't mean that in a negative way.

那是清晰性。

It was the clarity.

那是精致度。

It was the polish.

这是一种语言上的简洁，如果你是第一次思考某个问题，是无法达到这种程度的。

It was just a economy of language that you cannot get if you're thinking of something for the first time.

这是一种艺术。

And it was art.

这是一种艺术。

It was art.

他谈论的是基于美国保守主义的政治。

And he's talking about politics based on American conservatism.

我深受震撼。

I was blown away.

你对他的技艺理解得非常准确。

And you have his skill exactly right.

他对这些主题有深刻的研究，并将其浓缩为简洁、线性的文字，以极具冲击力的方式表达出来。

He has taught deeply about these subjects and he's condensed them to this very crisp, linear prose that he delivers in this very punchy way.

他在自己的领域非常出色。

Very skilled at what he does.

我上大学和研究生时经常读他的专栏文集。

I used to read his collections of his columns when I was in college and grad school.

还有一位英国专栏作家叫伯纳德·莱文，他也非常出色。

There was an English columnist, British columnist named Bernard Levin, who was also amazing.

他写作风格完全不同，更加个人化。

He wrote a very different style, a much more personal style.

他会写一些关于他对歌剧的热爱、在乡间散步以及其他类似事情的专栏。

And he would write columns about his enthusiasm for operas and for walking in the countryside and things like that.

但他 somehow 能让这一切都变得非常有趣，因为同样地，其中有一种真实感。

But somehow he was able to make it all really interesting because, again, there was a kind of authenticity.

你能感受到他的热情。

You could feel his passion.

他曾经写过一本叫《热情》的书，里面收集了他所有特别热衷的事物。

He once wrote a book called Enthusiasms, and it was just a collection of all the things he's super enthusiastic about.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

我想问你，你是怎么逛博物馆的？

I wanna ask you, how do you walk through a museum?

因为我对这个很感兴趣。

Because I'm interested in okay.

假设你想做你所从事的这份工作。

Let's say that you wanna do the work that you do.

我的意思是，显然，基本要求是学术研究、新闻报道、采访等等。

I mean, obviously, the table stakes is the scholarship, the journalism, the interviews, whatever else.

但除此之外，你还会培养哪些其他方面？

But what are the other things that you would kind of cultivate?

对吧？

Right?

我想到像泰勒·科文这样的人，我认识他已经很多年了。

I look at someone like Tyler Cowen, who I've known for so many years.

对他来说，就是花时间在一个墨西哥村庄里与艺术家相处，然后这 somehow 让他看到了文化经济学的视角。

And for him, you know, it's spending time in a Mexican village with the artist, and then somehow that gives him a window into the economics of culture.

对吧？

Right?

你为了获得这样一种独特——抱歉，一种与众不同的方式来看待世界并教授公共教育——都做过哪些事情呢？

Like, what are the things that you've done in order to get such a fancy word, I'm sorry an orthogonal way of looking at the world and teaching public education?

我记得有一次在飞机上，坐在旁边的是国际货币基金组织的常务副总裁，当时是一位名叫斯坦·费舍尔的人，他是著名的麻省理工学院经济学家。

I remember once being on a plane, and I was sitting next to the deputy managing director of the IMF, who at the time was a guy named Stan Fischer, very famous MIT economist.

我问他：‘你为什么做这次旅行？’

And I said to him, and he said, Why are you making this trip?

我说：‘我发现，如果我不亲自去那些地方，我就很难真正理解关于它们的大量文字，但总有些不一样的东西。'

I said, I find that if I don't go places, I don't feel like I can read a lot about them, but there's something different.

百分之百。

100%.

我对他说，但作为经济学家，对你来说一定不一样。

And I said to him, But it must be different for you as an economist.

你有所有的数据。

You've got all the data.

他说，法里德，我完全同意你的观点。

And he said, Fareed, I 1000% agree with you.

我发现，每次我进行这样的旅行，都在24小时内意识到，我之前对这个地方的假设是错误的。

I find that actually every time I go on one of these trips that I make, within twenty four hours, I realize that my previous assumptions about this place are wrong.

我在实地学到了一些东西，明白了我们原本考虑的政策为什么行不通，或者是一些文化或政治问题。

There's something that I learned on the ground about why the policies we were thinking about won't work, or it's some cultural issue or some political issue.

他说，我不知道为什么会这样。

And he was saying, I don't know why it is.

也许部分原因是，当你到达一个地方时，你的全部注意力都完全集中在它身上。

Maybe it's partly that when you go to a place, 100% of your mind is now fully attentive to that.

但我认为另一部分原因是，你正在与那些将此视为自己生活的人互动。

But I think the other part is you're interacting with people for whom this is their life.

当你坐在大学里阅读关于巴西发生的事情时，与你亲临现场的感受完全不同。

The stakes are totally different from when you're sitting in your university reading about something going on in Brazil.

然后你去了那里，这才发现这正是他们的生活。

And then you go there, and this is their lives.

去理解他们的真实处境，我常常发现，你所能做的最重要的事情就是这一点。

And figuring out what it looks like for them, and often I find the single most important thing you could do.

这就是为什么我至今仍频繁旅行的原因。

That's why I still travel a lot.

当我旅行时，尤其是为工作旅行时，我基本上就是去见人。

When I travel, particularly when I travel for work, I basically just meet people.

我可以在三天内见一百个人，因为我安排了六个人的早餐，还有两个人的咖啡会面。

I can do a three day trip and meet 100 people because I'll set up a breakfast with six people and a coffee with two people in.

因为我觉得，我还有机会再去看金字塔。

Because my feeling is I'll get another chance to see the pyramids.

到目前为止，我想弄清楚的是，这些人是谁？

At this point, what I'm trying to figure out is who are these people?

他们是怎么思考的？

How are they thinking?

他们是如何应对这个世界的？

How are they dealing with the world?

然后你可能会通过这种方式建立起一个联系网络。

And is probably and then you build up a network of contacts through that.

所以现在，如果某个地方发生了什么事，我会给我在智利认识的那位对拉丁美洲非常了解的人发邮件、发短信或打电话。

So now what I do is if something happens somewhere, I'll email or text or call this guy who I met in in Chile who's really interesting about about Latin America.

你觉得怎么样？

You know, what are you thinking?

你有没有读到什么我应该关注的东西？

What do you is there something you've read that I should be paying attention?

对吧？

Ain't that right?

过去一年半里，我待了很长时间在伦敦，一直对那里的一种悲观情绪感到非常惊讶。

I've spent a lot of time in London the last year and a half, and I've just been I've been very surprised by a certain kind of pessimism that is there.

你可以读到相关报道，但有两件事特别突出。

You could read about it, whatever, but there's two things that stand out.

第一件事是，我住进一家酒店，慢慢认识了那里的保安。

The first was I stayed at a hotel, and I just got to know the bouncer.

他在这家酒店当保安已经二十五年了。

He'd been a bouncer at this hotel for twenty five years.

他来自……

He was from It's

即使只是个保安，那家酒店也相当酷。

a very cool hotel, even as a bouncer.

是的。

Yeah.

那感觉就像索霍区的凯特纳酒店。

It was like It was Ketner's in SoHo.

所以他从这家餐厅一开始就在那里。

And so he was he was there at the start of this restaurant.

他来自我想说是阿尔及利亚。

He was from I want to say it was Algeria.

他只对我说了最简单的一句话。

And he just said the simplest line to me.

他说：二十五年前我刚到伦敦时，人们普遍很高兴能在这里。

He said, When I showed up in London twenty five years ago, it seemed like people were generally happy to be here.

而现在，人们普遍不高兴待在这里。

And now people are generally unhappy to be here.

你知道，你怎么看这件事？

And, you know, what do you make of that?

对吧？

Right?

也许他只是变老了。

Maybe he's aged.

也许是吧，管他呢。

Maybe the whatever.

对吧？

Right?

第二天晚上，我超爱吉尼斯啤酒，所以总是出去喝一杯，顺便读点书。

And the next night I I I love Guinness, and so I always go out for a pint of Guinness and went out to do some reading.

你知道吗，在伦敦，晚上结束时他们会敲钟？

You And know how in London they, like, ring the bell at the end of the night?

叮。

Ding.

叮。

Ding.

叮。

Ding.

叮。

Ding.

叮。

Ding.

所以当他们这么做的时候，音乐停了，接着出现了一种激烈而紧张的对话。

And so when they did that, the music stopped, and there was kind of this aggressive, intense conversation.

那个男人大声喊道：‘我们第二大城市刚破产了，而在美国，至少人们还有工作。’

And the guy is shouting, goes, and our second biggest city just went bankrupt, and at least in America, they have jobs.

整个地方瞬间陷入了寂静。

And it had just gone completely silent.

整个酒吧都安静了下来。

The whole bar went silent.

我不知道该如何评价这些时刻和直觉的重要性。

And I don't know what to make exaggerating the importance of those moments and intuitions.

但这两次经历让我窥见了真正的情感现实——伦敦人的真实感受，而这些是我通过其他任何方式都无法获得的。

But those two experiences gave me a window into what I do feel like is the truth, the on the ground truth of how people are feeling in London that I could have never gotten in another way.

要真正做到这一点，你可能会获得二十、三十甚至四十个这样的印象。

And to do it right, you're going to get twenty, thirty, 40 of those kinds of impressions.

然后他们逐渐形成某种理解。

And then they come to form some sort of understanding.

但你仍然需要查看数据和其他信息。

And then you always still have to look at data and you look at other things.

但我觉得，如果你没有那种德国人称之为‘finger spiel’的东西，我挺喜欢这个词的。

But I think if you don't have that The Germans call it a finger spiel, a sort I of love that word.

这个词。

Word.

你就遗漏了非常重要的东西。

You're missing something very important.

我觉得，如果你看看那些预见到特朗普上台的人所写的最佳作品，比如埃德·卢斯，这位出色的《金融时报》专栏作家。

And I think if you look at some of the best stuff that people who anticipated Trump think about Ed Luce, who's a wonderful Feet columnist.

他写了一本书，书中他走遍了美国。

He wrote a book where he just traveled around America.

我现在记不起这本书的名字了，但那是在特朗普上台之前写的。

I can't remember the name of the book now, but it was it was pre Trump.

他走遍了美国，最让他震惊的是，有些地区完全被繁荣和科技革新的大潮抛在了身后。

And he traveled around America, and he just said the thing he was most struck by was how there were parts of the country that had completely been left behind these great waves of prosperity and technological innovation.

你可以看出，他对在阿巴拉契亚等地所发现的情况感到由衷的惊讶，而我们后来通过J.

You could tell he was just genuinely surprised by what he was discovering in Appalachia and places like that, which we then later learned through J.

D.

D.

万斯的《乡下人的悲歌》才了解了这些。

Vance's Hillbilly Elegy.

但真正重要的是亲自前往那里，与人们交谈的力量。

But it's that power of just going there and talking to people.

你看过克里斯·阿纳德的作品吗？

Did you see Chris Arnade?

你有没有接触过他的No.

Have you come across his No.

所以我真的很喜欢这个人。

So I really like this guy.

他在2016年逐渐崭露头角。

He kind of rose into the spotlight in 2016.

他做的事情是去那些被遗忘的城市的麦当劳，开始采访那里的人。

Basically what he did is he went to McDonald's in forgotten cities and basically started interviewing them.

他的做法就是只是在城市里步行穿梭。

His whole thing is he just walks through cities.

他会去埃尔帕索，去洛杉矶，然后进行这些漫长的步行之旅。

So he'll go to El Paso, he'll go to Los Angeles, and he'll just go on these very long walking tours.

他的文章记录了他所观察到的一切，并且是摄影报道。

And his articles are about what he picks up, and then it's photojournalism.

而步行这件事很有意义，尤其是在美国，因为美国其实并不是渐变的。

And there's something about the walking, especially with how America is because it it isn't like America isn't really gradients.

纽约是个例外，但美国整体上并不是渐变的。

New York is such an exception, but America isn't really gradients.

这里发生着一些事，那里却什么都没有，有贫困，这里又热闹起来。

It's like stuff happening here, nothing happening, poverty, stuff happening here.

但当你步行时，你必须穿过这些毫无发生的地方。

But when you walk, you have to walk through that nothing happening.

就像你提到的爱德华·卢斯，他捕捉到了那些知识分子所忽视的细节。

And just like what you're saying with Edward Luce, he was able to pick up on something that the more intelligentsia had completeness.

这很好地说明了我常对自己说的一句话：轶事的复数形式并不是数据。

It's a good example of I often say to myself, The plural of anecdote is not data.

你必须看数据，两个故事并不能构成趋势。

You've got to look at the data, two stories does not make a trend.

但确实，数据有时也会掩盖一些非常重要的事情。

But it's also true that the data can sometimes hide some very important things.

因为如果你看数据，美国的表现优于世界上任何其他发达国家。

Because if you look at the data, The US has done better than any advanced industrial country in the world.

与欧洲相比，我们的领先优势更大了。

Compared to Europe, our lead has gone greater.

我们的工资比欧洲当年工资水平相同时高出许多。

Our wages are much higher than Europe's were when they were once the same.

那么到底发生了什么？

So what's going on?

但由于这种现象的地理特性，以及部分人口结构因素，出现了不满情绪。

But there was a discontent because of the geographical nature of this, and partly the demographic nature of this.

因此，那些被抛在后面的人觉得自己是传统的美国人，正如J.

So the people who were being left behind were people who felt that they were heritage Americans, as J.

D.

D.

万斯喜欢称之为的那样。

Vance likes to call it.

因此，从种族角度审视美国的不满情绪非常有意思。

And so it's very interesting to look at some of the sense of dissatisfaction by race in America.

非裔和西班牙裔美国人，即使经济状况并不理想，不满程度也较低，因为过去三四十年里，他们在尊严和社会地位上有所提升，尽管经济上的进步可能没那么大。

Blacks and Hispanics, even when they haven't done so well economically, are much less dissatisfied because they've come up in terms of dignity and status over the last thirty or forty years, even if they may not have come up economically as much.

而对于白人来说，情况几乎正好相反。

Whereas with whites, it's almost the inverse.

所以这非常有趣，有时候通过亲自去某个地方并与人们交谈，你能获得更多洞察。

So it's a very interesting And sometimes those kinds of things, you're able to pick up more by the act of actually just going someplace and talking to people.

是的。

Yeah.

我想到的一个概念是地图与领土的区别。

The idea that's coming into my mind is the map territory distinction.

对吧？

Right?

比如，要写好非虚构作品，你实际上是在绘制一张地图。

Like, in order to write good nonfiction, what you're doing is you're creating a map.

所有的地图都是错的。

All maps are wrong.

但有些是有用的。

Some are useful.

但接下来你需要深入到领土本身。

But then what you need to do is you need to dive dive into the territory.

好的。

Okay.

哇。

Wow.

关于现实本身，有很多地图里没有包含的内容。

There's all these things about the territory that aren't included in the map.

但那个原始故事的要点是，如果你有一张和实际地域一样大的地图，那它就完全没用。

But the whole point of that original story is that if you have a map that is the size of the territory, it's completely useless.

因此，你需要这种持续的压缩来将信息纳入地图，同时承认地图是不完美的，然后进行解压缩。

So you need this kind of constant compression to bring into the map, but then acknowledging that the map is imperfect and then a decompression.

这就像某种知识的生成，是在这两者之间不断往复的过程。

And it's like some kind of knowledge generation is about the oscillation between those two things.

其中一部分取决于你试图回答什么问题。

Part of it is what question are you trying to answer?

正如你所说，地图是对现实的一种表征。

So a map, as you say, is a representation of reality.

如果你做到地图和城市一样大，正如你所说，那就完全没用了。

If you go to the point where the map is the same size as the city, as you say, it's completely useless.

但如果你升到七万英尺的高空，只能看到地球，却看不清细节，那也不行。

But if you go up to the point where the map is 70,000 feet above the sky and all you're looking at is the earth and you can't see it, then it doesn't work either.

也不管用。

Doesn't work either.

但如果你只是想说明地球是众多行星中的一个，那它就管用。

Or it works if you're trying to point out that the earth is a planet among many.

所以问题在于，你试图回答的是什么？你必须问自己：我想解决什么问题？

So the question is, what are you trying to The question you have to ask yourself is, what am I trying to answer?

我想研究什么现象？对于这个问题，什么样的概括程度才是合适的？

What phenomenon am I trying to And what is the level of generalization that is appropriate for that question?

我应该在地图上的哪个位置？

Where should I be in the map?

我应该处于细致的街道层面吗？

Should I be at the granular street level?

我应该处于一个能看清美国每个城市与其他城市对比的层次吗？

Should I be at the level where I can see how each city in America compares to the others?

我是不是需要再高一点，看看美国城市与欧洲城市的对比？

Do I need to be a little higher and see how American cities compare to European cities?

这就是我花很多时间思考的问题：什么样的比较才是合适的？

And that's what I spend a lot of time thinking about, which is what is the right compare?

这就是我说美国是个糟糕的世界帝国时的意思，除了其他所有帝国之外。

And that's what I mean when I say America's been a terrible world empire, except for all the others.

这种比较视角非常重要，因为当其他国家拥有如此大的权力时，它们的表现如何？

That comparative perspective is very important because when other nations have had this much power, how have they done?

你能跟我谈谈你的研究吗？

Can you tell me about your study?

这些照片很棒。

The photos are cool.

你让那位布鲁克林的木匠做的。

You got that Brooklyn woodworker to make it.

我来告诉你具体发生了什么。

I'll tell you exactly what happened.

我住在一个联排别墅里，刚买的时候我们没什么钱，根本负担不起大规模翻新。

So I live in a townhouse and we didn't have a lot of money when we got it and couldn't afford to really renovate it.

后来随着时间推移，我情况好转了，我们就装修了厨房之类的部分。

And then over time, as I did better, we did the kitchen and things like that.

然后是后美国时代。

And then the post American world.

大多数时候，我的书都被翻译了，但说实话，大多数翻译工作只是为了满足一点自尊心。

Most of the time, most of my books have been translated, but to be honest, most translations, it's like up to a point of pride.

你会拿到匈牙利版，也会拿到法语版。

You get the Hungarian edition and you get the French edition.

它们卖得并不多。

They don't sell that much.

只卖出去几千册。

They sell a few thousand copies.

你会偶尔收到一张500美元的版税支票，《后美国世界》在意大利、印度等几个其他国家成了畅销书。

You get an occasional royalty check for $500 The Post American World was a best seller in several other countries like Italy, India, a few others.

所以我最终拿到了相当可观的海外版税。

And so I ended up getting a fair amount of foreign royalties.

所以这简直就是意外之财。

So it was really like found money.

免费的钱，各位。

Free money, everyone.

我根本没想到会收到这笔钱。

I had no idea this was going to come.

于是我心想，让我用这笔钱做点有趣的事吧，这一直是我的愿望。我有个书房，原本只有普通的书架，后来我找到了一位在布鲁克林的木工，他愿意和我一起坐下来设计这个书房。

And so I thought to myself, let me do something with it that's just fun and that I've always And wanted to so I had this study, which had pretty just normal shelves, And I found this woodworker in Brooklyn who was willing to help sit with me and we designed this study.

他从英国进口了英国松木。

And he bought English pine from England.

他真的是个工匠，非常热爱自己的工作。

And he was a real I mean, he was a craftsman and really loved what he did.

他坐下来，我们一起设计了它。

And he sat and we designed it.

我最喜欢的一个特点是，我是个杂乱的作家。

And then my favorite feature in it is I am a messy writer.

所以我的书桌总是很乱。

And so my desk is always very messy.

其中自有逻辑，但只有我明白那些纸堆各自摆放的逻辑。

There is a logic to it, but only I understand the logic of what heaps of paper are where.

所以我们找到了一种方法来保留这种状态。

So we found a way to let me have that.

但还有两扇门，我可以拉开并关上；如果你走进我的书房，看起来只是有一面漂亮的镜面墙——其中一个柜子装有镜子，当柜门打开、那些门滑入时，它们就变成了嵌入式门。

But then there are these two doors I can pull out and close so that if you walked into my study, it would just look like there was a beautiful mirrored There's one cupboard which has mirrors on it, but the cupboard, when it opens and those doors slide in, they become pocket doors.

那就是我的书桌。

That's my desk.

所以对我来说，做到这一点非常重要。

So it was very important to me to do that.

然后我们加了一个带架子的梯子，因为自从我看了《我的失败女神》之后，我就看到雷克斯·哈里森去拿书。

And then we had a ladder with a shelf because ever since I've watched My Fail Lady, I saw Rex Harrison going to get books.

我也一定要有这样的设计。

I had to have that.

现在这个房间很紧凑。

Now it's a tight room.

这是一个小房间。

It's a small room.

它比我们现在所在的房间还要小。

It's smaller than the room we're in right now.

它有很高的天花板。

It has high ceilings.

所以看起来很棒，待在那里非常有趣。

And so it looks great and it's so much fun to be there.

这并不是我待得最久的房间。

It's not the room I spend most of my time in.

当我能够做到之后，我深刻体会到我们所创造的环境对我们有着如此深远的影响。

And after I was able to do it, it just gave me that really profound sense of how shaped environments we create have such an effect on us.

这不仅是美学上的，更近乎是一种情感上的体验。

It's aesthetic, but it's also almost emotional.

如果你能为自己打造一个合适的环境，那简直是一种魔法。

That if you can create the right environment for you, it's magic.

确实如此。

It's so true.

一个能引导你成为你想成为的人的环境。

And an environment that pulls you to the person that you want to be.

是的。

Yeah.

这么说真好。

That's a good way of putting it.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不，你说得对。

No, that's right.

我看到有些人，比如与自然互动，就能产生这种效果。

And I see that where there are some people for whom, for example, interacting with nature has that effect.

让自己置身于那种环境中，就会产生这种效果。

Putting yourself in that environment has that effect.

我有点像是个城市人，对我来说，是人类所能创造的东西塑造了我，让我热爱。

I'm sort of like an urban guy for Me It's what man can do to I shape love

城市。

cities.

我热爱城市。

I love cities.

对我来说，自然是一种很好的逃离方式，我也喜欢身处自然之中。

For me, nature's a nice escape and I love being in nature.

我的意思是，我真的很喜欢，但我绝对不可能住在那儿

I mean, just love it, but I can't I could never live in

那里。

it.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

我喜欢用‘逃离’这个词，因为它暗示了你最终会回来。

I like it as escape is a good word because it implies you come back.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

你能告诉我，那位和你母亲在印度一起工作的记者是谁吗？你从他身上学到了什么？

Can you tell me about the journalist who worked with your mother in India and what you learned from him?

我想你十岁的时候见过他。

I guess you met him when you were 10.

是的。

Yeah.

姓辛格，对吧？

Last name Singh, right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以是库什旺特·辛格。

So Khushwant Singh.

他最著名的是，无疑是印度最知名的记者。

Best known became certainly the best known journalist in India.

他最初是一位小说家，写了至今仍被认为是关于印巴分治最好的小说，名叫《通往巴基斯坦的列车》。

He was a novelist initially, wrote what is still the best novel about the partition of India, India Pakistan, called Train to Pakistan.

这本书在当时赢得了一个非常重要的奖项，叫做格罗夫出版社奖。

It won a big, in those days, a very big award called The Grove Press Award.

他在印度变得相当有名，后来成为这本杂志的编辑。

And he became quite famous in India and then became the editor of this magazine.

我母亲当时为他工作。

And my mother was working for him.

他教会我的，可能比任何人都多，是对文字、对语言的热爱。

And what he taught me probably more than anybody else was the love of words, the love of the language.

他热爱自然，经常去散步，能辨认出各种鸟类，而我却完全不具备这种能力。

He loved nature, he would go on these walks and he could identify birds, which I still have absolutely no capacity to do.

实际上，这是个不错的ChatGPT功能。

Actually, good ChatGBT thing.

今天早上我看到外面有一只漂亮的猎鹰。

I saw a beautiful falcon outside this morning.

我当时想，哇哦。

I was like, woah.

那是哪种鸟？

What kind of bird is that?

所以我拍了照片，刚用上了完整的ChatGPT。

So I took photos, I just got the full chat GBT.

这就是为什么现在它在纽约的原因。

Here's why it's in New York at this time.

迁徙模式。

Migration patterns.

现在有个问题。

Now here's the question.

他会通过鸟鸣来辨认。

So he would do it by by bird call.

如果你录下鸟鸣，然后交给ChatGPT，问这是哪种鸟的叫声，你觉得怎么样？

Could you do you think if you recorded and gave it a chat GBT and said, what is this the call of a humming of don't know what.

他就是这么做的，出生在

That's what he would do, born in

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

这很了不起，而且

That's impressive, And

他会背诵诗歌。

he would just recite poetry.

哇。

Wow.

我们会一起去，然后他会对我说：你现在应该学这个。

And we would go and then he would say to me, Now you should learn this.

我仍然记得。

And I still remember.

我的意思是，这太惊人了。

I mean, it's stunning.

我能记得。

Can remember.

那些诗歌。

The poems.

是的。

Yeah.

他在我十岁的时候就让我背诵华兹华斯的《水仙》。

He made me learn Wordsworth's daffodils when I was 10 years old.

这首诗听起来是什么样的？

What does that one sound like?

我独自漫游，像一朵孤云，高高地飘浮在山谷和山丘之上，突然间，我看见一群，一簇金黄的水仙花，在湖边树下，随风摇曳起舞，如同银河中闪烁的繁星，连绵不绝，沿着海湾的边缘伸展。

I wandered lonely as a cloud that floats on high o'er vales and hills, and all at once I saw a crowd, a host of golden daffodils, besides the lake beneath the trees, fluttering and dancing in the breeze, continuous as the stars that shine and twinkle on the milky weight, they stretched in never ending line along the margin of the bay.

我凝视着，凝视着，却未曾想到，这景象带给了我多少财富。

I gazed and gazed, but little thought what wealth the show to me had brought.

常常，当我躺在沙发上，心绪空茫或沉思时。

And oft when on my couch I lie in vacant or in pensive mood.

它们便在我内心的眼前闪现，那是独处的幸福。

They flash upon that inward eye that is the bliss of solitude.

于是我的心便充满喜悦，随着水仙一同欢舞。

And then my heart with pleasure sing with pleasure fills and dances with the daffodils.

哇。

Wow.

然后，哦，拜伦，她行走于美中，如光般皎洁，似无云的天际与繁星点点的夜空，所有最美好的光明与黑暗在她的容颜与双眸中交汇。

And then, O Byron, she walks in beauty like the light Of cloudless climes and starry skies, And all that's best Of broad dark and bright meet in her aspect and her eyes.

我的意思是，我希望能做得更多，但让我印象最深的，恰恰是我十岁、十一岁、十二岁时背下的那些诗。

I mean, I wish I could do more, but what's stunning to me is the ones I remember best are the ones I learned when I was 10, 11, 12.

这挺有趣的，因为我一直对人们告诉我希腊人能背诵荷马史诗感到惊讶。

It's funny because I was always kind of amazed at how people would tell me that the Greeks would memorize Homer.

我当时想，这怎么可能呢。

I was like, There's no way.

但让我铭记在心的是，第一是诗歌，我 memorize 它的能力，还有音乐。

But what stuck with me is, one, poetry, my ability to memorize it, and also just music.

我的意思是，有些歌我四年级时听过，之后二十年都没再听过。

I mean, there are songs that I heard when I was in fourth grade, and I'll just haven't heard it in twenty years.

但一响起，每一个字都立刻涌上心头。

And boom, it pops on now every single word.

旋律竟然如此神奇地帮助我们记住歌词，真是令人惊叹。

And it's amazing how the tune helps you remember the words.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

不，对于真正口述文化中的希腊人来说，记忆不仅是为了让语言的韵律留在脑海中，而且也很实用。

No, and the Greeks, in part of a truly oral culture, the memorization was important not just to have the cadences of the language in your head, but also it was practical.

《奥德赛》中有一部分，我想，是讲如何建造木筏的。

So there's a part of The Odyssey, I think, where there is a section where he tells you how to build a raft.

你记忆它的三个原因之一是：记住，那时候没有，你必须掌握这些。

One of the three reasons you memorized this was a way Remember, there were no You got to know this.

那时候没有使用手册。

There was no how to manual.

没有任何你可以查阅的东西。

There was nothing you could look at.

也没有YouTube视频。

There were no YouTube videos.

那么，你是怎么记住如何建造木筏的？

So how did you remember how to build a raft?

你会回想《奥德赛》中描述如何建造木筏的那些诗句。

You would recall the lines in The Odyssey that told you how to build a raft.

如果它是抑扬格五音步，而且有一定的节奏感，你就更容易记住。

And if it was in iambic pentameter and it was in some way rhythmic, you could remember it better.

是的。

Yep.

散步、自然、诗歌、语言。

Walks, nature, poetry, language.

再给我讲讲那个。

Take me back to that.

我父亲是个非常了不起的人，非常忙碌，但不知为何，他是个很好的父亲，只是并不以那种方式当我的导师。

So my father was a very impressive guy, very busy, And for some reason, was a very good father, but he was not a mentor in that way.

而库什万特·辛格是个喜欢和我及我弟弟待在一起的人，他会给我们讲诗歌和鸟类。

And Khushwant Singh was this guy who enjoyed hanging out with me and my brother, and he would tell us about poetry and about birds.

他教我打网球。

He taught me how to play tennis.

他教我游泳。

He taught me how to swim.

这还让我对充实的生活是什么样子有了感受。

And it also gave me a feeling for what a rich life can look like.

我父亲非常有上进心。

My father was very driven.

他是个孤儿，但他并不是为了发财。

He was an orphan who And he was not trying to get rich.

他想在印度积极参与政治，产生影响，诸如此类。

He wanted to be politically active in India and make an impact and all that.

他是那种政治家兼律师类型的人。

He was politician lawyer type.

库什旺特·辛格这个人，既想在事业上取得成就，想写出重要的作品，但也希望留出时间亲近自然，还希望把网球打好——他过着一种我始终铭记的圆满生活。

Khushwant Singh was somebody who wanted to do well professionally, wanted to write important things, but also wanted to have his time for nature, also wanted to get his tennis game He had a kind of wonderfully rounded life that I've always kept in mind.

我始终努力确保自己不会在某个方面偏离太远，以至于失去拥有丰富生活的能力。

I've always tried to make sure that I don't get so off track in one area that I lose that ability to have a rich life.

对我来说，重要的不是在任何一个指标上最大化。

To me, the important thing is not maximizing on any one metric.

真正重要的是保持这种平衡。

It's actually having that balance.

这在某种意义上是非常亚里士多德式的。

It's very Aristotelian in a sense.

我想请你谈一谈，从不同媒介中你学到的核心教训，来个快速问答。

I want to ask you about kind of do a fire round type thing with the core lesson that you've learned from different mediums.

那我们先从书籍开始，然后是文章，再是电视。

So let's start with books, then we'll do articles, and then we'll do TV.

书籍。

So books.

思维的深度，理解的深度。

Depth of thinking, depth of understanding.

因为对于书籍，尤其是优秀的书籍，你会意识到，要真正理解一个现象，你必须深入挖掘。

Because with the book, what you realize is, particularly a great book, that to understand a phenomenon really well, you really need to go get deeper.

你需要明白，这其中存在着一层又一层的揭示。

You need to understand there's layers and layers of uncovering.

通常，简单的答案并不是完整的答案。

No simple answer is usually the full answer.

这又回到了我们之前讨论过的地图问题。

And it gets back to that question about the map we were talking about.

这意味着，当有人问你‘法国大革命为什么会发生’时，你仍然需要能够提供某种简洁的框架或概括吗？

Does that mean you still have to be able to provide some simple construct or brief construct if somebody asks you, Why did the French Revolution happen?

但当你读到一本真正优秀的书籍时，你会意识到，这其实是一个极其复杂的现象，是由多种原因在某一刻汇聚在一起而发生的。

But when you read a really great book, you realize this was a really complicated phenomenon, and it happened for a variety of reasons that happened to come together in this one moment.

是的。

Mhmm.

文章。

Articles.

文章，正如我所说，如果你想想那些非常短的文章，它就像一个感叹号。

Articles, I think, as I said, if you think about the really short article, it's an exclamation point.

你只是在表达一个观点。

You are making one point.

我说是感叹号而不是句号，是因为你在断言某件事。

And the reason I say an exclamation point rather than a period is you are asserting something.

它必须是令人不安的内容。

It has to be something unsettling.

它必须是令人困扰的，或者告诉人们一些他们不知道的事情。

It has to be something that's disturbing or that tells people something they don't know.

它必须能让你抓住别人的衣领，告诉他们这一件事。

That has to have that, let me grab you by the lapels and tell you this one thing.

如果你写文章没有做到这一点，我认为你基本上是失败的。

And if you're not doing that with an article, I think you're mostly failing.

那么，还有一种不同类型的文章，就是像《纽约客》可能刊登的那种较长的文学随笔。

Now, is a different kind of article, the longer literary essay that maybe The New Yorker publishes.

这属于另一个类别。

And that's in its own category.

但我是说，那种分析性、论证性、论战性的写作，比如现在在互联网上大量存在的类型。

But I mean, analytic, argumentative, polemical writing of the kind that, for example, now vastly populates the internet.

电视？

TV?

电视，就是那种联系。

TV, it's the connection.

电视最重要的事，是你与观众建立的联系，以及你如何建立这种联系，观众对你有何感受。

The most important thing about TV is the connection you make with the viewer and how you make that connection and what what how they feel about you.

玛雅·安吉洛曾在一次活动或其他场合说过这样的话。

Maya Angelou once said this when she was at an event or something.

她说：记住，没人会记得你说过什么，但他们永远记得你让他们有何感受。

She said, just remember, nobody will ever remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

我认为这对电视来说非常准确。

And I think that's very true about television.

当你做到的时候，有一种感觉

There's something when

你能把它做好。

you can do it right.

你会回看自己的电视节目表现吗？

Do you watch your television performances back?

你问得真有意思。

So it's interesting you ask.

我刚入行时，第一档电视节目是在ABC，参与的是乔治·史蒂芬诺普洛斯的圆桌讨论。

When I started out, I started out my first TV was on ABC with the George Stephanopoulos roundtable.

每隔一周就会录一次。

Used to do it every other week.

那时候我开始认识乔治·威尔，因为我在节目中经常和他辩论。

Then I got to know George Will in person in those days because I would sort of argue with him on that show.

我想，有三年时间我从未回看过自己。

And I think for three years, I never watched myself.

我真的做不到。

Literally I do couldn't do it.

我认为人们说的没错，当你听自己的录音时，你的内心会听到一个不同的声音。

I think that what people say about when you listen to yourself, there's something about your internal ear hears a different voice.

所以当你听到录音时，你会说：那不是我。

So when you hear recorded, you record.

你对自己说：那不是我。

You say to yourself, That's not me.

我听到的是什么？

What am I hearing?

我对自己看录像时也有同样的反应，心想：天啊，这太糟糕了。

I had that same reaction to looking at myself and thinking, Oh my God, this is terrible.

我坐得不够直，诸如此类。

I'm not sitting straight, whatever.

我觉得这非常别扭和困难。

And I just found it very awkward and difficult.

这会打击我的自信心。

It would depress my confidence level.

于是我对自己说，我不干了。

And so I thought to myself, I'm not going to do this.

然后我开始意识到，有人告诉我，只有当你观看自己并反思哪里做得不对、哪里可以改进时，你才能变得更好。

And then I started to realize, somebody told me, You're only going to get better if you watch yourself and ask yourself what you're not doing right, what you should do better.

因为在我整个生命中，从未接受过任何人任何形式的电视表演指导。

Because in my whole life, I've never had a single minute of television coaching of any kind from anyone.

这主要是因为我一直觉得自己就是专家。

And it's mostly because I just have always thought of myself as just like, I'm an expert.

我是个记者。

I'm a journalist.

我不想成为电视名人。

I don't want to be a TV personality.

所以我只能靠自己摸索。

And so it meant I had to kind of do it myself.

于是我开始观察自己，这很痛苦。

So I started to watch myself, and was painful.

然后我开始对自己说：好吧，我该怎么观察自己？又该怎么真正学到东西？

And then I started saying to myself, okay, how do I watch myself, and how do I actually learn?

我哪里做得不对？

What am I doing that's wrong?

我该怎么做得更好？

How do I do it better?

所以现在我会这么做。

And so now I do yeah.

我会看每一期节目。

I watch every show.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

我会观看，反复观看，带着这个念头：我哪里做得对？

And I watch and I watch and I with that in mind, like, what am I doing right?

我哪里做得对？

What am I doing right?

我注意到，比如，我开始稍微驼背了。

I've noticed, for example, I've started to slump slightly.

嗯。

Mhmm.

也许是年龄增长的结果，所以我得更加注意这一点，还有类似的事情。

Maybe a product of aging, so I've got to be more careful about that and, you know, things like that.

正如我所说，我尽量不显得过于生硬和刻板，但也不希望有太多像‘呃’、‘啊’这样的口头语，而我本来就不太有这些。

I as I said, I don't I try not to be totally clipped and clean, but you also don't want to you don't have too many verbal props like ums and ahs and things like that, which I don't tend to have anyway.

所以如果你觉得自己有这种情况，可以做个心理记录。

So you kind of make mental notes if you feel like you did that.

另外，在内容方面，我会观看并对自己说：不，当时我本该问的那个真正后续问题是这个，而不是那个。

Also, with the substance, I will watch and say to myself, No, the question, the real follow-up I should have asked at that point is this one rather than that one.

我哥哥以前是个出色的网球选手，他过去常这样谈论练习。

My brother, who used to be a great tennis player, used to say this about practicing.

他说，你必须进行有目的的练习。

He said, You have to have purposeful practicing.

你不能只是跑到网球场上，和别人打上一两个小时，然后问：为什么我进步不大？

You can't just go out onto a tennis court and you're just knocking with somebody for an hour or two hours, and you say, Why am I not getting better?

你必须对自己说：我的反手很弱。

What you have to say to yourself is, My backhand is weak.

我针对这个反手的改进策略是：我要专注于反手练习。

My strategy to do something about that backhand is going to be, I'm gonna focus on the backhand.

我会先强迫自己只打反手斜线球。

I'm gonna start by forcing myself to do only cross court backhand.

然后我会练习反手直线球。

Then I'm gonna do backhand down the line.

接着我会尝试在两者之间来回切换。

Then I'm gonna see if I can switch back and forth.

然后我会试着看看能否把球打回得更深一些。

Then I'm gonna try and see if I can get it back deeper than I'm.

如果你这么做，每次练两小时，练三次，你的反手一定会进步。

Like, if you do all that, play for two hours, three times, then your backhand will have gotten better.

但如果你只是随便上去打打，就不会有进步。

But not if you just get on there.

所以我写东西时也采取类似的方法，对自己说：如果你在观察自己，那就要带着目的去观察，问自己：我哪里做错了？

So I sort of approach writing anti be like that and saying to yourself, if you're watching yourself, you're watching with the purpose of saying, What did I do wrong?

我该怎么做得更好？

How do I do it better?

下次我做这件事时，该在脑子里想些什么？

What should I put into my head when I'm doing it next?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的回答。

It's a great answer.

如果我邀请你回耶鲁，说：好吧，你来上一学期的写作研讨课。

If I invited you back to Yale and I said, Okay, you're going to do one semester writing seminar.

人们会学会你所做的事。

The people are going to learn to do what you do.

你如何设计这个课程？

How do you structure that curriculum?

你试图给学生强调的核心要点是什么？

What are the core pillars of emphasis that you're trying to give the students?

这是个很好的问题，因为我确实思考过。

It's a great question because I have thought about it.

我认为归根结底，我可能会布置大量优秀的写作作品，仅此而已。

And I think that at the end of the day, I would probably assign a lot of very good writing more than anything else.

我认为写作是一种你必须通过观察来领悟什么是好写作的能力。

I think that writing is one of those things that you have to absorb an understanding of what good writing is by looking at it.

我不相信存在一套二十条规则。

I don't believe that there's a set of 20 rules.

其中一些是有用的。

Some of them are useful.