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互联网让我们能够教授数十万学生。
The Internet has enabled us to teach hundreds of thousands of students.
不，是数百万。
Well, millions.
天哪。
Wow.
你从来都不可能真正完全站在任何一方。
You're never really fully on anyone's side.
我们不是苏格拉底，但这就是典型的例子。
We're not Socrates, but, that is the paradigmatic example.
对吧？
Right?
你得上Twitter。
You wanna be on Twitter.
你得上YouTube。
You wanna be on YouTube.
不能让任何事情荒废。
You can't let anything go fallow.
你必须亲自到场。
You have to be there.
泰勒制造复杂和混乱，而你则简化问题，建立秩序。
Tyler creates complexity and chaos, and you simplify and create order.
如果你看不懂帖子在说什么，那肯定是泰勒写的。
If you're confused about what the post said, that's a Tyler post.
如果你完全看懂了帖子的内容，还气得不行，那肯定是亚历克斯写的。
If you understand exactly what the post said and you're mad as hell about it, that's an Alex post.
所以，亚历克斯，2003年10月，你写过：昨天，我们首次突破了一万名访客。
So, Alex, it was October 2003, and you wrote, yesterday, we breached 10,000 visitors for the first time.
继续加油。
Keep coming.
你并不孤单。
You're in good company.
说说这件事。
Talk about that.
是的，我们第一篇帖子是2003年8月发的。
Yeah, so I mean we started in August 2003 was the first post.
那时候还没有社交媒体，也没有推特。
And there was no social media, there was no Twitter back then.
那时候连iPhone都还没有，根本谈不上手机。
There was really, was before the iPhone so there was really no phones.
那你怎么推广这个东西呢？
So like how do you advertise this thing?
我们根本没有任何推广渠道。
We didn't even have any way of advertising it.
但没过几天，就有人在第一篇帖子底下留言了。
But within a few days, people had commented on the very first post.
嗯，也许这事儿有点门道。
Know, maybe there's something here.
然后对，当时觉得一万这个数字挺多的，其实也就几周的时间。
And then yeah, 10,000 seemed like a lot at the time within you know, just really a matter of weeks.
所以我想我们当时挺兴奋的。
So I guess we were pretty stoked about that.
你还记得当时促成这件事的对话吗？或者说是什么契机让MR诞生的？
Do you remember the conversations that you had that led up to this or what was going on that sparked the genesis of MR?
这简直就像罗生门时刻，对吧？
This could be our Rashomon moment, right?
因为我觉得我了解这个故事，但你说
Because I feel I know the story but you say
每一个故事。
very story.
所以我的记忆是，我走进泰勒的办公室，说我们应该写一本教科书。
So my remembrance is that I came into Tyler's office and I said we should write a textbook.
泰勒说可以，但首先我们应该写一个博客。
And Tyler said yes, but first we should write a blog.
我当时还问呢，博客是什么东西？
And I'm like what's a blog?
可能没那么夸张，但那时候确实才刚开始，你知道的。
Maybe it wasn't quite that bad but it was really early on, you know.
所以我们就这么做了。
And so we did.
这大概就是一切的开端。
So that was kind of the genesis of it.
我觉得这个顺序是对的。
And I think that was the correct ordering.
这完全就是我的版本。
And this is exactly my version.
但我当时说，咱们先写个博客，然后就能出名了。
But one thing I said, we should write a blog and I said, we'll become famous.
我说的出名，其实是希望有五千人会看我们。
And by famous, I meant, well, maybe 5,000 people would read us.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你当时就说，嗯，反正就这么着，然后我们就做了。
You were like, well, you know, know, and then we just did it.
早期我们根本不知道有人在看。
And early on, we didn't even know people were reading us.
我们只是想着发几篇练练手。
We're like, we're gonna do some posts for practice.
结果发现真有人在看。
And it turned out people were reading.
你觉得这是关键之一吗？
You think that's one of the keys?
就是这一点，我注意到你，泰勒，你做事的核心动力就是觉得有趣、开心。
Just this because this is one thing I noticed about you, Tyler, is you're driven by what's fun, what's joyful for me as like your core thing.
只要我坚持下去，我相信自己的写作总能有所成就。
If I keep on doing it, I figure I'll get somewhere with my writing.
但大多数人并不觉得这有什么好玩的。
And most other people don't find it that fun.
所以，选择自己真正感兴趣的事情，本身就是一种竞争优势。
So it's a competitive advantage just to be choosing things you're intrinsically interested in.
你做MR的时候，会觉得是在干活吗？
Does it feel like work to you working on MR or
有时候吧。
Sometimes.
我会花很多时间去打磨每一篇文章。
Spend a lot of time to try and craft my pieces.
我常想，如果我们有五万、十万读者，哪怕能节省他们每篇一两秒的阅读时间，也是很有社会价值的，所以花几分钟去优化，很值得。
I sort of think, well, if we've got 50,000, 100,000 readers, if I, you know, reduce the time it takes them to read this by, you know, a second or two, well that's socially very beneficial, so I should spend a few minutes to do that.
他们的阅读机会成本很高。
And they're high opportunity cost readers.
是的，很多都是这样。
A lot Yeah, of
没错。
exactly.
他们的阅读机会成本很高。
They're high opportunity cost readers.
所以我确实觉得，花点心思把内容写得简短精炼是值得的。
So I do feel that it's worthwhile putting some effort in to craft something which is short and tight.
我们常把MR比作思维上的点心，对吧？
You know, we think about MR as dim sum for the mind, right?
是给大脑的小份享受。
Little bites for the mind.
我们一直坚持这样做很久了。
And we've kept at that for a long time.
啊，这真是个值得深挖的话题。
Ah, that's a good rabbit hole.
跟我说说这些小技巧吧。
Talk to me about these little heuristics.
Mind dim sum、高机会成本的读者，给我讲讲其中一些……
Dim sum for the mind, high opportunity cost readers, like Walk me Maltest through some of
通往一个更美好的世界，对吧？
toward a much better world, right?
这正是我们的副标题。
That's our subheading.
关键是，哪怕你做的看起来很小，但通过这些微小行动的积累和复利效应，最终能带来一个更美好的世界。
The notion that you can do something that seems small, but the way you get to a much better world is through the accumulation and compounding returns from these small steps.
总有人抱怨，有人消极，满嘴悲观。
There's whiners, there's pukers, there's pessimism.
这些才是主流声音。
Those are the dominant strands.
但我们正在朝着一个更美好的世界迈出小小的一步。
But we're small steps toward a much better world.
我们之前还争论过。
And we had an argument.
要不要在那儿加个‘更’字？
Should we put the word much in there?
其实也不算争论。
Not an argument.
亚历克斯说，咱们得加上‘更’字。
And Alex said, We should put much in.
我当时就说，这太荒唐了。
I'm like, No, that's crazy.
不能加‘更’字。
You can't put in much.
一个更好的世界，本身就已经够好了。
Like a better world is better enough.
但他是对的。
But he was right.
我们加上了“much”，现在回头看，显然这样做是对的。
We put in the much and looking back, clearly it was the right way to go.
为什么？
Why?
我是说，仔细想想，我们已经迈出了非常非常多的小步，二十年来写了这么多文章。
I mean, if you think about it, we have done very many small steps, twenty years of writing all these posts.
但这带来了很多重大成果，比如新冠疫情期间的快速拨款之类的。
But it has led to a lot of big things like fast grants, you know, with COVID and that.
那影响真的很大。
That was huge.
有效算法，算法。
Effective algorithm Algorithm
或者是速度，你的参与，但透着一种雄心壮志。
or speed, your participation, but the hint of ambition.
但这一点被藏得挺深的，你知道的，靠的是那份坚持。
But a little bit hidden, you know, with the much.
所以如果有人注意到了这份坚持，就会想，嗯，这背后有门道。
So if someone notices the much, like, okay, you know, get some thinking.
其实这些人，靠的就是这份坚持。
These guys are about much, in fact.
小步前进，靠的是坚持。
Small steps, much.
要是先有大目标，再做小步子，我反而会担心。
If you had much first and then the small steps, I'd be worried.
但我们把顺序做对了。
But we we got the sequence right.
你觉得早期有没有过这种情况：你们其中一人发了帖子，另一人觉得，这跟我们原本想的不太一样？
Do you feel like there were moments early on when one of you posted something and the other person was like, that's not really what we're going for?
没有。
No.
我肯定是因为我发得更多。
I he must have because I post I've posted more.
不是。
No.
对。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我从来没这么想过。
I I I don't think I ever thought that.
就连NBA的账号也没这样。
Not even the NBA posts.
没有，我倒是有过
No, I've had a
不过他们做得非常好。
fine They've done very well, by the way.
我现在不做了。
I don't do them anymore.
我们所有帖子中阅读量最高的一篇是关于沙奎尔·奥尼尔的。
One of our best read posts of all time was about Shaquille O'Neal.
那篇说的是什么？
What was that one?
我当时在论证，他有资格被称为历史上最伟大的篮球运动员，虽然这种观点并不常见。
I was arguing he's a plausible candidate for greatest basketball player of all time, which is not a common view.
现在回头看，他的职业生涯太短了，不足以得出这样的结论。
And I would say, in retrospect, his career was too short for that to be a plausible conclusion.
但如果你要从一个人身上组建一支球队，确实有可能选中沙克。
But the notion of if you were building a team out of one player, that you might have plausibly picked Shaq.
别忘了，那时候勒布朗的生涯长度远没有现在这么长。
And keep in mind, at that time, LeBron didn't have nearly the longevity he has now.
现在的话，这根本不可能成立。
Now, no way could it be true.
你肯定会选勒布朗。
You'd pick LeBron.
不过话说回来，他还是发了那篇帖子。
But anyway, he put this post out there.
收到了大量的反馈和关注。
Got an enormous amount of feedback, attention.
那这个帖子这么火，能告诉我们关于MR的什么道理呢？
So what does that teach us about MR that that post would do so well?
因为按常理来看，它根本不该是爆款。
Because intuitively, it wouldn't seem seems like it would be a flop.
做真实的自己。
Be true to yourself.
如果你心里有想法，就把它公开出来。
If you are thinking about something, put it out there for the world.
你觉得呢？
What what do you think?
人们特别喜欢给东西排个高低，对吧？
People also love to rank things, right?
没错，确实如此。
That's right, yes.
而且
And
每个人对这类问题都有自己的看法。
everybody has an opinion on those sorts of questions.
我觉得这其实未必是好事。
It's not actually a good thing I think.
也许吧。
Maybe not.
但每个人都能稍微参与一下，比如我们写一些自己专业领域的经济问题，人们就不大会跳出来评论，说‘那这个呢？那个呢？’
But everyone can contribute a little bit and so like if we write something about, you know, area of economics where we're sort of experts then people feel less inclined to comment and say, well what about this, what about this?
但如果你聊的是沙奎尔·奥尼尔，大家就觉得自己的意见特别有价值，说不定还真有道理。
But if you talk about Shaquille O'Neal, you know, people feel that they have a worthwhile opinion, and maybe they do.
而且你得稍微换换话题，别总盯着一个方向。
And you want to randomize topics a bit.
尤其是写博客的时候，你的读者最大的动力之一，就是想给你泼点冷水。
And keep in mind, especially for blogging, a big motivation of your readers is they want to take you down a peg.
你得给他们机会，让他们能这么干。
You actually have to give them some chances to do that.
比如你写一篇关于沙奎尔·奥尼尔的文章，他们就会说：‘泰勒，你根本不懂篮球。’
And a post on something like Shaquille O'Neal, they can say, Oh, Tyler, you don't know anything about basketball.
就算奥尼尔在打球的时候，哈基姆才是更好的中锋。
Even when Shaq was playing, Hakim was a better center.
对不对，也不一定。
Maybe true, maybe not.
但他们就爱找机会贬低你。
But they love being able to put me down.
所以你其实得稍微顺着他们点。
And you actually have to lean into that somewhat.
在这段时间里，有没有哪个瞬间让你觉得，一开始只是个实验，结果慢慢变成了正经事？
Were there moments throughout this this time where you felt like maybe it starts off as an experiment, now it becomes a thing.
然后有些事情会在不同阶段突然变得重要，让你忍不住说，哇，真的吗？
And then things become things at sort of different stages where you're like, wow.
我们居然真的在做这件事了。
We're we're we're really doing this.
本来这应该只是个小对话，现在却成了你职业生涯里最核心的部分之一。
Because presumably, it starts off as a small conversation, and now it's one of the defining parts of your career.
有没有哪一刻让你特别惊讶，觉得天啊，我们居然建起了这么大的东西？
Are there moments of wow or serendipity where you said, oh my goodness, I can't believe what we've built?
我原本以为，只要能有五千个读者，其中三分之二是经济学界的学者，我就心满意足了。
Well, I thought it would be this big success at 5,000 readers who would be two thirds academics, the broader academics in the economics profession, and that I was just going be delighted with that.
那就是我当初的设想。
That was my vision.
我们确实达到了那个目标，但远远不止这些。
We've got that, but we got a lot, lot more.
我学到的最重要的一点就是，现实世界其实非常在意思想。
And just how much the real world cares about ideas has been one of the biggest things I've learned.
这真是太好了。
And that's wonderful.
让人特别振奋的是，那些不靠思想谋生的人，居然真正在意你和别人的想法。
It's very exciting and optimistic that people out there who don't do ideas for a living really care what you and others think.
是的。
Yeah.
比如边际革命大学，还有我们拓展到视频领域这件事。
And things like, you know, Marginal Revolution University, the expansion to video.
我们有很多学生在用我们的视频，经常收到他们的邮件。
And the idea that we have students who are using our videos, we get emails all the time.
有学生在韩国、印度、巴基斯坦通过我们的视频通过了课程，他们都会写信给我们。
You know, I passed my class as student in South Korea, student in India, Pakistan, you know, they're writing to us because they watch the videos.
外面有这么多我们根本没想到会有的学生，对吧？
And so like out there, there all these students we never thought we would have, right?
没错。
That's right.
这太了不起了。
And that's incredible.
通常我们一次就教五个人，最多三十个人左右。
Mean, think, usually we're teaching like five at a time, 30 at a time.
要是二百人的大课，天啊，那规模也太大了。
If a class of 200, it's like, my god, that's enormous.
我可应付不了那么多人。
I can't handle that.
互联网让我们能够教成千上万的学生，这简直不可思议。
The internet has enabled us to teach hundreds of thousands of students, which is incredible.
多少？上千万？
What, millions?
估计有上千万了吧。
Millions probably.
是的
Yeah.
到现在确实是这样
By now, yeah.
几百万，没错
Millions, yeah.
这个体系有三个核心支柱
So there's three core pillars to this stool.
大家都只想到博客，但还有YouTube频道和教材
Because everyone thinks of the blog, but there's also the YouTube channel and the textbook.
还有播客和Twitter
And the podcast and Twitter.
实际上还有更多内容
There's there's more, in fact.
你继续说
But go on.
那你跟我说说吧。
Well, talk to me.
你以前管这叫一场知识上的闪电战。
You you once called it a intellectual blitzkrieg.
跟我详细讲讲这些项目的整体布局吧。
So talk to me about this whole consortium of projects.
这是一整套联动的产品线，我们每个人参与的程度不一样。
It's an integrated product line, which we participate in to varying degrees.
比如写教材，亚历克斯比我投入得多。
Like writing the textbook, Alex does more of that than I do.
播客这部分是我主要在做。
The podcast is something I do.
但我们的目标是让各个受众群体互相认识，也了解不同的产品，因为大家获取信息的方式不一样。
But the goal is that you introduce your audiences to each other and to the different products, and people consume information different ways.
所以你得在推特上活跃，得在YouTube上出现，但我们不上TikTok。
So you wanna be on Twitter, you wanna be on YouTube, we're not on TikTok.
你得在文字领域保持存在感。
You wanna be out there with the written word.
我给《纽约时报》和彭博社写过专栏。
I've had columns for New York Times and Bloomberg.
亚历克斯到处写文章，不光是写在博客上，然后那些文章又会出现在博客里。
Alex writes pieces all over the place, other than on the blog, and then they show up on the blog.
你不能让任何东西荒废了。
And you can't let anything just go fallow.
你必须持续参与，因为这些方式是相互补充的。
You have to be there and that these things complement each other.
亚历克斯，你觉得是什么让你成为一位出色的教材作者？
What makes you a good textbook writer, Alex?
他比我强多了。
He's better than I am.
你跟他说说真正的原因。
Tell him the honest reason why.
我没泰勒那么聪明。
I'm not as smart as Tyler.
这其实就是真实原因。
That's the honest reason why.
我可不会这么说。
That's not how I would put it.
我来告诉你吧。
I'll tell you.
对我来说，我得把事情简化了才行，对吧？
So to me, I have to simplify things down, right?
这自然就是我的思维方式。
So that's naturally how I think.
泰勒和我的思考方式很不一样。
Tyler and I think in very different ways.
但我们常常得出相似的结论。
But we often arrive at a similar conclusion.
泰勒一开始会把故事讲得特别复杂，明白吗？
So like Tyler will start with the most complicated version of the story, okay?
各种限定条件、假设、转折，全堆在一起。
And like all the qualifiers and the ifs, ands, and buts.
我就跟泰勒说，学生根本听不懂这个。
And I said Tyler, the students never gonna understand that.
咱们得简化一下。
We need to simplify it.
我呢，直接把那些花里胡哨的东西全砍掉。
And I start with the like like cut all the you know, cut all the bells and whistles off.
把事情还原成最纯粹、最直接的状态。
Simplify things down to the most stark you know, situation.
然后再慢慢加一些细节，最后再去找泰勒。
And then I add you know some bells and whistles and then I'll go to Tyler.
他再把那些多余的东西去掉，咱们就走到一块儿去了。
Well what the, take away some bells and whistles and we arrive at the same place.
但我发现这确实帮到了我的教学，因为我能理解学生为什么困惑。
But I think it does help me to teach students in that I can understand why they're confused.
对，换作是我也会觉得一头雾水。
Okay, because I would be also confused, know.
这对我来说也不明显。
It's not obvious to me.
所以我得把东西简化，让自己先搞明白。
So like I have to simplify, things down so that I can understand them.
因此我觉得，当我为刚接触这些内容的人写作时，这种经验特别有帮助。
And so I think that helps me when I'm writing for somebody else who is just learning this material for the first time.
我觉得我的问题在于，我反而喜欢让他们更糊涂。
I would say my problem is I enjoy confusing them more.
这真是
That's the
最Tyler风格的一句话了。
most Tyler sentence ever.
亚历克斯呢，他有些时候只是在做自己的工作，但也会在我贡献内容的时候提醒我收敛一点。
And Alex, you know, some of it he's just doing the work, but he also reigns me in when I'm contributing.
就算不提他的评论，我写东西的时候也会想，哦，亚历克斯待会儿会看到这段。
And even apart from his comments, I'm writing, and it's like, oh, Alex is gonna read that.
得把内容写得更简单、更清楚才行，不然亚历克斯会怎么想呢？
You know, know, gotta make that simpler and more clear because, you know, what's Alex gonna think?
你写教材的时候，是怎么权衡故事和现实之间的关系的？
So when you're writing the textbook, how do you think about stories versus reality?
因为如果完全照搬现实，那就太复杂了。
Because if you go fully indexed on reality, it's just too complicated.
但要是光讲故事，又会失去现实的根基。
But if it's just stories, it loses its basis in reality.
是的。
Yeah.
这很难，因为你不能把全部真相都告诉学生。
It's difficult because you can't tell the students the entire truth.
我的意思是，你得准备多本教材。
I mean, you'd need multiple textbooks.
但你得明白，这仅仅是第一步。
But you have to recognize that this is just the first step.
这是经济学入门课，我们尽量给学生足够的背景，让他们能稍微看到山那边的景象。
This is Econ 101 and we try and give them enough of the context so that they can see over the hill a little bit.
但首先你得把他们带到山顶附近，等他们差不多上去了，再告诉他们：瞧，远处还有几座山，以后你可以回来再细看。
But first of all you got to get them you know quite a bit up to the top of the hill or close to the top of the hill and then you can say, oh well, now you can see there's some mountains in the distance that you might wanna come back to and look at later.
作为老师，你得从学生当前的水平出发，引导他们往正确的方向走。
But as a teacher you have to start with where they are and move them in the right direction.
所以我们并不指望能把每个人都带到绝对真理的高度。
So we don't think that we're going to move everyone to capital T Truth.
但只要你有这个方向，能让他们更接近真相，我觉得就算尽到责任了。
But if you have that vector, we could get them closer to the right direction, then I think we've done our jobs.
然后很多人会去读那个博客，每天都在那儿困惑，对吧？
And many then go to the blog where they are confused every day, right?
对此我感到很高兴。
And I'm happy about that.
你写这些教材的时候，能跟我聊聊你的编辑和修改流程吗？
When you're writing these textbooks talk to me about your process for editing and improving and the back and forth.
这个过程是怎么进行的？
How does that work?
是用谷歌文档做的吗？
Is this in a Google Doc?
具体是怎么操作的？
What is actually happening there?
人们其实不太明白。
People don't understand.
你第一次写完一章，这一章会收到大概四十份审稿意见吗？
You write a chapter the first time, that chapter is, what, 40 referee reports?
差不多是这样吧，你有多确定？
Is that about Yeah, how sure.
这份稿子会发给四十位不同的审稿人，每个人都有自己的看法。
What does It's that sent out to 40 different readers, all of whom has opinions.
你不需要让每个人都满意，但你必须认真考虑他们的意见。
You don't literally have to make them all happy, but you have to take it into account.
出版社才有最终决定权。
Mean, the company, the textbook company has the final say.
我和泰勒经常来回修改。
And Tyler and I are back and forth a lot.
我觉得我们的教材有个特别的地方：有些两位作者的教材，一个人写微观，一个人写宏观。
One of the things which I think distinguishes our textbook is that, you know some textbooks like with two authors, know, one author will write the micro and one author will write the macro.
这两部分听起来差不多，但写法完全不同，风格也不一致。
Hey these two things, they sound the same, they don't look the same, use different styles.
我们的教材完全是泰勒和亚历克斯一起写的。
Well our textbook, everything is written by Tyler and Alex.
整本书语气统一。
It's all in one voice.
泰勒和我，我们一直努力确保在字面和意义上都保持一致。
Tyler and Alex, And so we work hard to get ourselves so that we're both on the same page literally and figuratively.
没有助教，也没有初级作者。
And no RAs, no like junior authors.
所有内容都是我们亲自完成的，视频也是我们自己拍的。
It is truly us, videos done by us.
所有这些都和我们的博客紧密关联。
All of that linked to the blog.
我们多年来一直在博客上解释经济学概念。
We've been explaining economics ideas on the blog for years.
这帮助我们把教材写得更好。
That helps us make the textbook better.
教材反过来又带动博客，吸引更多的读者。
The textbook, in turn, feeds back to the blog, gets us more readers.
所以，这又是一个相互整合的产品体系。
So again, integrated product line.
相互补充。
Complementarities.
很多教材作者，图片都是别人帮着选的。
A lot of textbook authors, someone else chooses the pictures for the textbook.
不，不，不，每一张图都是我们自己挑的。
No, no, no, Every single picture we choose.
对吧？
Right?
这让我想起《辛普森一家》那次和《哈佛商业评论》的访谈，记者问：‘你为什么不请麦肯锡来帮你做这些事呢？’
This reminds me of the there's a Seinfeld interview with HBR where the the interviewer goes, why wouldn't you hire McKinsey to, you know, to do whatever?
辛普森回答：‘那他们搞笑吗？’
And Seinfeld goes, well, are they funny?
记者说：‘不搞笑。’
And the interviewer goes, no.
辛普森就说：‘那问题就在这儿了。'
And Seinfeld goes, well, that's the problem.
这就是为什么《宋飞正传》这么棒，因为每一件事我都亲自参与。
That's why Seinfeld is great because I was on every single part of the show.
所以它才会有这种高度整合的风格。
And that's why it had this integrated product.
正因如此它才这么出色，因为我全身心投入，完全被这个项目占据了。
That's why it was amazing because I was obsessed and utterly consumed by this project.
很多人以为我们有个团队专门帮我们整理《边缘革命》上的各种链接。
A bunch of people think we have this, like, team of helpers, like, putting together assorted links on Marginal Revolution.
其实都是我们自己做的。
Like, it's us.
有了审稿人和出版社非要你这么做、那么做，到底失去了什么？
What is being taken away by virtue of having referees and a publisher who's insisting on this or that?
博客是自己出版的，所以我们每天都自己搞定。
Well, the blog is self publishing, so we do that every day.
当然了，我们就是自己出版。
So of course we self publish.
但很重要的是两方面都做，比如我写专栏的时候，会从编辑那里得到反馈。
But it's important to do both and say, when I write columns, I get feedback from my editor.
这对改进博客和教材都非常有帮助。
That's very valuable for helping to make the blog better, the textbook.
并不是说你要把博客写得像专栏那样，而是通过和优秀的编辑合作、写书和教材，你能学到很多关于写作的东西。
It's not that you try to make your blog post like your column, but by working with wonderful editors, writing books, textbook, you just learn so much about writing.
我们很幸运，一直有很棒的编辑。
We've been blessed to have excellent editors.
我们不做自出版的时候，会做各种其他事情。
All the different things we do when we're not self publishing.
教材其实存在一种有趣的张力，这背后还有一整套经济理论。
There is an interesting tension with the textbook which actually, there's a whole economic theory about.
作为作者，我们自然希望教材能让人喜欢，对吧？
And that is that as authors we kinda wanna make the textbook so that people love it, right?
就像经典的教材，比如莱维特和艾伦那本，对吧？
And that there's the huge like a classic textbook like LG and Allen, right?
这本书在一小群人当中备受喜爱，而我们正是希望他们能真心喜欢它。
That has this massive love for the textbook from maybe a small group of people but we really want them to love it.
但出版社只关心利润。
While the textbook company, they just care about profits.
他们只想多卖一本，对吧？
They just wanna get one more reader, right?
就是这么回事。
There's that
他们只希望没人讨厌它。
They want it, no one hates it.
这是一种方式。
It's one way
没错，他们希望没人讨厌它，就是这样。
to Yeah, put they want it, no one hates it, exactly.
对，没错。
Yeah, yeah.
所以确实存在这种张力，但归根结底我觉得这种张力是有意义的，毕竟我们也希望有很多学生来读这本书。
So there is that tension but in the end I think it's a useful tension because we also want, obviously we want lots of students to read it.
我们想让比世界上以往任何时候都更多的人学到经济学，而这就是实现目标的一种方式。
We wanna teach economics to more people than has ever been taught in the entire world and that's one way of doing it.
我大学时的女朋友主修经济学，那时候我特别自卑，因为自己一点都不懂经济学。
My college girlfriend was an economics major, and I was very insecure that I didn't know economics.
我们分手后，我一个人住在纽约，还是对经济学一窍不通。
So after we broke up, I was living in New York, and I still didn't know economics.
于是我就坐下来，每天吃午饭和晚饭的时候，一个人吃饭就看你们的YouTube视频。
So I sat down, and every day at lunch and dinner when I was eating by myself, I watched your YouTube videos.
现在我总算懂经济学了。
And now I know economics.
所以我想聊聊那些YouTube视频。
And so I wanna talk about the YouTube videos.
写那些视频的时候感觉怎么样？
How was writing those?
这些视频是怎么从教材里发展出来的？
How did they go from the the textbook into the videos?
你肯定不是一个人搞定的，除非你真是Final Cut Pro的硕士——我想你没这背景吧。
Obviously, you do help have help with that unless you're master's in Final Cut Pro, which I don't think is the case.
能跟我讲讲这个过程吗？
So tell me about that process.
边际革命大学是全球第一的经济学教育平台。
Marginal Revolution University is the number one economics education site in the world.
它就在YouTube上。
It's on YouTube.
完全免费。
It's completely free.
也没有任何广告。
There are no ads.
就这么简单。
No tricks to that.
它就摆在那儿。
It's just there.
你想看多少，完全由你决定。
You can consume it in whatever amount you want.
我们很早就意识到，YouTube上的视频内容会变得非常重要。
So we saw early on YouTube online video would be a big thing.
我们觉得必须抓住这个机会，毕竟我们擅长讲解这些概念。
We thought we have to be in on this, that we had the chance to, and that we had the experience explaining concepts.
写脚本其实没那么难。
I don't find writing the scripts has been so hard.
有几篇脚本是我们让研究生写的，这点我承认。
And there's a few of the scripts that we had a grad student write, I'll admit that.
通常是玛丽·克莱尔负责的。
That was typically Mary Claire.
但尤其是在早期，所有脚本都是我们自己写的。
But especially early on, we did all the writing of the scripts.
即使别人写了脚本，内容也还是基于我们的文字。
And even if someone else wrote the script, they'd be drawing from our text.
但真正难的是录制过程。
But recording it is what's hard.
坐在录音棚里，一遍遍重来，就为了剪出一分钟甚至三十秒能用的片段，你们都懂的。
Just being in the studio and having to do so many cuts, you all know about this, to get a minute or thirty seconds of usable material.
必须做到刚刚好。
It has to be just right.
我在镜头前并不自然。
And I'm not a natural person on camera.
我觉得自己说话还算清楚直接，但没有电视明星那种气质和长相。
I think I can speak clearly and to the point, but I don't have TV personality, TV looks.
我其实不太喜欢笑。
I don't like to smile, really.
所以拍视频对我来说是个不小的挑战。
So video for me was a stretch.
你会怎么说？
What would you say?
你不喜欢笑。
You don't like to smile.
确实如此。
That is true.
要让泰勒笑出来可真难。
It's very hard to get Tyler to smile.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错，确实如此。
Mean, it is
我想说明一下，我其实挺开心的。
I'm happy, to be clear.
我只是不喜欢笑而已，没错。
I just don't like the smile, yeah.
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是啊，录视频真够折腾的。
Yeah, recording is brutal.
特别难，没错。
It's very difficult, yeah.
你知道吗，我以前根本没意识到，光是说话时控制呼吸就这么讲究，录个十分钟的视频，简直跟唱歌一样。
I mean as you know, like even just to have enough breath control to, I had never realized it was anything like, you know, it's like singing, when you're speaking to the camera for you know ten minutes or something like that.
光是呼吸控制就已经够难的了。
The breath control alone is quite difficult.
所以我们真的很幸运。
So we were very fortunate.
我们一开始可是什么都没有，对吧？
I mean we started out just bare bones, right?
就我和Tyler两个人，配个简单的PPT讲解而已。
Just Tyler and I speaking with maybe a narrated PowerPoint, basically.
用个iPad的应用程序。
With an iPad app.
用iPad上的一个应用。
With an iPad With an app.
一个应用。
App.
很多人都喜欢。
And people liked it.
后来我们拿到了资金，把制作水平提升了不少。
And then we got funding, you know, to up our game.
于是我们很幸运地请到了一流的人才来做拍摄、动画和音效等工作。
And so then we got the we were very fortunate to have excellent people filming but also doing animations and sound and so forth.
罗曼·哈德格雷夫斯成了这个项目的负责人。
Roman Hardgraves became manager of the project.
现在他主导着大部分工作进展。
He now drives a lot of what happens.
和罗曼合作真是太好了。
It's been great working with Roman.
很多内容都是在这个工作室里直接制作的。
A lot of it's made right here in this same studio.
我们的目标是到2025年，让25%的美国高中用上这个产品。
And our goal is to be in 25% of American high schools by 2025.
但我认为，真正更重要的受众在印度、南亚和中东地区。
But I actually think our more important audiences are in India, South Asia, Middle East.
我们准备了丰富的字幕，任何需要的都涵盖了。
We have plenty of subtitles, whatever is needed.
我觉得，海外的影响最终会最大。
And I think abroad will eventually have the largest impact.
如果我去查看YouTube和博客上的用户行为数据，能发现哪些是我凭直觉感受不到的信息？
If I were to go into the MR analytics on YouTube, on the blog, what would that tell me about the world that I wouldn't understand intuitively?
这么说吧，我越来越感觉到，印度其实有很强的智力兴趣，这正是我这几年从你身上感受到的。
You know, one way to think of this is, hey, there's actually a lot of intellectual interest in India, which is what I'm sensing from you increasingly over the past few years.
不，我故意不去看这些数据分析。
No, I deliberately don't look at analytics.
时不时会有人告诉我一些事，所以不能说我对这些完全一无所知。
Periodically, people tell me things, so I wouldn't say I know zero about it.
但我更在意的是，每天做这件事本身是不是有趣。
But I like to be focused on the process being fun every day.
我相信，只要坚持下去，时间久了自然会成功。
I just figure over time, that will win.
如果你知道什么内容更受欢迎，就会不自觉地去追着它跑。
And if you know what gets more hits, you start chasing that, even if only subconsciously.
所以我大部分时候都摸不着头脑，但我知道印度是我们第二大市场。
So I'm mostly in the dark, but I do know India is by far our number two market.
很可能它最终会成为第一。
Very likely it will end up at number one.
只要我在印度做公开演讲，台下总有人会说：‘哦，你就是MRU那个 guy。’
And if I give a public talk in India, just as a matter of course, someone in the audience will go, Oh, you're the MRU guy.
每次都是这样。
Every single time.
在美国，其他地方根本不可能出现这种情况。
And there's nowhere else like it might happen in The United States.
但在印度，人们更常说：‘哦，你就是那个播客 guy。’
But it's more like, Oh, you're the podcast guy.
在印度，大家都会说：‘哦，你就是那个MRU guy。’
In India, it's like, Oh, you're the MRU guy.
这让我觉得，我们在这条路上确实取得了一些进展，挺让人鼓舞的。
And that to me is a very hopeful sign that we're getting somewhere with that.
这其中有个挺有意思的技术点，就是字幕。
An interesting technological aspect to this was the subtitles.
我们根本没打算过，也没怎么想过这事儿，但你把视频传到网上，谷歌就会自动加上字幕，对吧？
Which is something we never planned on or really thought about it but you put your video on the web and then Google starts automatically adding subtitles, right?
然后借助DeepMind，还能自动翻译成全球上百种语言，对吧？
And then with DeepMind they're automatically converted into a 100 different languages in the world, right?
这可不是我们主动做的。
That's not something we did.
这是技术自带的功能。
That's something which came with the technology.
所以我们的影响范围一下子扩大了很多，对学生来说特别有用，因为他们其实并不想用母语字幕来读内容。
And so that broadened our scope tremendously and it's incredibly useful for the students because they don't actually want to read the subtitles sort of in their language.
他们真正需要的是帮助理解英语。
What they want is help with the English.
他们可以一边听，一边看自己母语的字幕，这就是他们学英语的方式。
And so they can listen and have the subtitles in their own language and that is how they learn English.
这其实是在同时进行两种学习。
So it's kind of doing a dual learning process.
一边学经济学，一边学英语。
You learn economics, you learn English.
这不就是语言老师该做的事吗？
That's What language teachers?
不然他们怎么学会‘弹性’这个词呢？
How else are they gonna learn the word elasticity, right?
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
正是如此。
Exactly.
你之前提到过筛选想法的过程。
You spoke earlier about the process of killing ideas.
我想听听你是怎么实际操作的。
I wanna hear how that shows up for you.
你总不可能每篇博客都发出去吧？
Presumably, you don't have a 100% hit rate of open up blog, publish blog.
能说说你是怎么决定不发布某篇文章的吗？
So talk to me about that process of, I'm not gonna publish this.
你是怎么决定不分享某个想法的？
I'm not gonna share this.
我写过很多文章，但从来都没发布过。
I write a lot of posts that I just don't use, ever.
有时候我觉得观点有误，或者新闻热点已经过去了。
Sometimes I think they're wrong or the news cycle passes them by.
又或者我只是对这个话题感到厌倦了。
Or I just figure, I'm actually sick of that topic.
有时候觉得内容不错，就故意憋着不说，心想：留点余地，让人更想看下去。
Or maybe it's good, and I'll just sit there of devilishly and say, It's better to leave people wanting more of this good thing.
这次我决定不发了。
I'm gonna call this one back.
不是故意坑人，只是别老是迎合所有人。
Not to screw them over, but just you shouldn't always be pandering all the time.
原因有很多，各不相同。
So a lot of different reasons.
你觉得呢？
What would you say?
其实，我很早就从泰勒身上学到了一点。
I mean, there's something I learned from Tyler very, very early on.
他给我看了一章他正在写的书。
He gave me a chapter of a book which he was, working on.
我就随便提了点意见之类的。
And I gave him some comments, whatever.
结果过了三四周，甚至更久，我再看到这一章的时候，
And then I saw a second version of the chapter, you know, like three or four or five weeks later.
完全不一样了。
It was completely different.
我当时就想：什么？
I'm like what?
这到底是怎么回事？
What's going on, right?
关键是要敢删，敢放弃，写错了就重来，反复打磨，直到它真正好为止。
And just that idea of you gotta kill stuff, be willing to kill things, write it again, do it over, you know, work at it until it's right.
这事儿挺有勒布朗风格的。
You know, that's a very LeBron kind of thing.
说到我的书，我觉得大概有两千五百页从来没发表过。
You know, in terms of my books, I think I have, I guess, 2,500 pages never published.
大部分写得都不怎么样。
Like, mostly not good.
但有些内容还挺有意思，虽然只是糟糕得有意思。
But some of it's interesting if only in a bad way.
说真的，还没烂到不可救药。
Like, it's not truly terrible.
MR成功的瓶颈到底是什么？
What is the binding constraint on the success of MR?
就是人。
Just individuals.
从这个角度来说，其实没什么瓶颈。
In that sense, it's not binding.
我们现在有我们两个人就够了。
We have the two of us.
我们并不真的需要更多人。
We don't want more people per se.
我们的目的不是去帮助他们。
The goal is not to help them.
我们的目标是通过做这件事来学习东西。
The goal is for us to learn things by doing it.
我们想要的就只有这两个人，这是定义好的。
We have the two we want, by definition.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我根本不关心会不会有更多读者。
I don't care if we get more readers.
我反而担心我们会吸引到更多读者。
I'm actually worried we might get more readers.
为什么？
Why?
他们可能会给你发一些无聊的东西。
They wanna write you with stupid things.
现在我们的读者大多都很有见识。
Right now, we have mostly smart readers.
所以他们给我发邮件，这挺好。
So, they write me and that's great.
我收到的邮件里，大概有80%都很有深度，所以我几乎都能回复。
Like, 80% of the email I get is smart, which means I can respond to virtually all of it.
但这种情况可能会变。
And that could change.
我希望别变。
I hope it doesn't.
如果真变了，我可能就得故意把内容搞得更难懂一点，或者更晦涩些。
If it starts to change, maybe I'll try to confuse people more or make it all more obscure or something.
有件事大家真的很难相信，其实呢，我早年当过泰勒的研究助理。
Something which people really don't believe, you know, I was, this is not the part that people don't believe, but you know, I was Tyler's RAs, his research assistant early on.
有一天我去他办公室，就问他：需要我帮什么忙吗？
And, I come by his office one day and I say, do you need anything?
泰勒说：对，你能去图书馆帮我拿一套书吗？
And Tyler says, yeah, can you get me this set of books from the library?
大概十本书吧。
It's like 10 books.
我就去图书馆把书拿回来，直接送给了泰勒。
And so I go to the library, get the books, I deliver them to Tyler.
第二天我又去他办公室，问：今天有什么需要我做的吗？
And I come back the next day and I say, do you need anything today?
泰勒说：你能把这些书还回图书馆吗？
Tyler says, can you return these books please?
我当时就想，这人也太不地道了。
And I'm like, what a jerk.
你知道吧，
You know,
这人简直是在浪费我的时间。
guy has like wasted my time.
他就是想耍个威风，搞什么权力游戏，你懂的？
He's just like doing some power, what is this, some power thing, you know, like that?
后来有一天，我拿了一篇自己写的论文请泰勒帮忙看看。
And then sometime later I came and I asked Tyler to read a paper for me that I'd written.
我把论文递给泰勒，正要走，
And so I give the paper to Tyler and I go to leave.
他说：别走别走，你坐下。
Said, no no no, sit down.
然后他就开始，嗯，这么一通讲解，
And he goes, and he starts going like this.
我说，哦，你得去看看阿罗1958年的那篇论文。
Okay, so oh, you should look at Arrow nineteen fifty eight.
哦，这不对。
Oh that's wrong.
他就这样。
He goes like this.
哦，这个观点挺棒的。
Oh this is a good point.
我当时简直不敢相信。
I was like unbelievable.
但泰勒真的每天能读好几本书，一天读四五本一点都不稀奇。
But like Tyler literally reads several book, I don't know four or five books a day is not unheard of.
他轻松就能做到。
He easily does that.
真的没错。
It's like true.
泰勒每天读好几本书，这当然也是他能取得成就的原因之一——他总能提出一些有趣又独特的见解。
Tyler reads multiple books a day and that of course is one of the things which is responsible for MR success is that Tyler always had something interesting and original to say.
在博客圈里，这种东西最稀缺。
This is what is scarce in blogging.
可不是说《边际革命》这种账号稀缺。
Like, it's not scarce to marginal revolution.
还有像本·汤普森、马特·尤格拉提乌斯、斯科特·亚历山大、伊扎·克莱因这些人。
You have a few other figures, like Ben Thompson and Matt Yuglatius, Scott Alexander, Ezra Klein.
他们吸收信息的方式各不相同，但像这样的人实在太少了。
They take information in in different ways and different modes, but there's just not many people like that.
整个行业里，最缺的就是这种人。
And that's what's scarce in the sector as a whole.
要想持续输出，不陷入重复，你就得大量吸收新信息。
Because to keep on going and not just become repetitive, you have to take in information at a clip.
有些人听了根本不敢相信。
The people, like, literally won't believe.
我都不想跟他们说这事。
I don't even try to tell them.
我开始做播客之后，发现更多人相信了，因为他们能实时听到这些内容。
I found after I started podcasting, many more people believed it because they hear it coming out in real time.
不过呢，也无所谓了。
But, you know, whatever.
继续往前走就是了。
Just keep on going.
他曾是你的研究助理。
He was your research assistant.
亚历克斯特别出色的地方在哪里？
What was particularly exceptional about Alex?
我们很早就决定一起写论文，他总能很快交出初稿，而我也会迅速回应。
Well, we decided to start writing papers together early on, and how quickly he would come back with something written, and then I would in turn respond pretty quickly.
我们很快就摸清了彼此的工作节奏，这成了后来所有合作的关键。
But we learned each other's work habits right away, And that was the key to all the later collaborations.
我知道，只要交给亚历克斯，他一定会做，而且一定会做好。
I just knew I could always trust Alex to actually do the thing and do the thing well.
而且一旦有分歧，我们都有双方都觉得靠谱的解决办法。
And that if there was any disagreement, we had methods for resolution that we both found good enough.
很多人喜欢摆架子、压人，说‘就得按我的来’，别人可能只好听从，或者别人也这么对你。
There's plenty of people you can boss and bully like, oh, we're gonna do it my way, and maybe they have to go along, or they can do that to you.
但真正意义上的合作，其实特别少见。
But actual collaboration is oddly scarce.
那你怎么形容自己作为写作者的工作习惯呢？
So how would you describe your work habits as a writer?
对。
Yeah.
我就是埋头苦干，先把活儿干了。
I mean I just try and put nose to the grindstone and do the work.
只要是一起写东西，我总会优先把对方的事放在前面，这样你先把成果交回去，自己再腾出时间做自己的部分，效率反而翻倍，对吧？
And I always think that, if I'm co authoring, collaborating with somebody, I always want to put that first because then you give that back to them and then you have time to do your own work and then you get twice as much done, right?
要是我先做完自己的部分，而泰勒那边还没动，那是因为他还没收到我的草稿。
So if I do my work first and then Tyler's not working because he doesn't have my, you know, my draft back yet.
我合作的时候不光是和泰勒，也和其他人一起做。
So I work on anything for collaborating not just with Tyler but with other people.
我总是先完成合作的部分，这样对方就能接着做他们的工作，而我也可以同时推进自己的任务，效率高很多。
I do the collaboration first because then you have the other person who's working for you while you're working on your own stuff and get a lot more done that way.
我知道他就是这样，我有时候故意捣乱。
And I know he's like this and I try to screw it up.
比如他会给我发来一些东西。
Like, he'll give me something.
然后我就跟他说：你别急着做自己的事。
And I'm like, you can't work on your stuff.
我很快就把东西还给你，这样我就能专心做我的部分了。
I'm gonna get this back to you really quickly so I can work on my stuff.
然后他也会对我做同样的事。
And then he'll do the same to me.
是的。
Yeah.
泰勒回消息特别快。
Tyler's amazingly quick in responding.
这里有个核心点，就是速度，我们总绕回到这个话题上。
There's a core thing here, a core theme about speed that we keep coming back to.
为什么不现在就做了呢？
Like why not do it now?
对，这事儿也经常出现在审稿上——其实我本来不想提，看谁在听吧，比如审稿这件事。
Yeah, this also comes up like with, actually I don't wanna say this because depending on who's listening, but like referee reports.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，这本来就是我们做学术的人该做的事。
You know this is something which we're supposed to do as academics.
我总是尽快处理，因为我知道三周后我只会更忙。
And I always tend to do them right away because I know I'm not gonna be less busy in three weeks from now.
我当然可以安慰自己说，哎，过一阵子会空一点。
I could tell myself that, oh you're gonna be less busy.
既然要做，不如现在就做了，反正以后也不会更闲。
Like if I'm gonna do it, I might as well do it now because I'm not gonna be
你只会更忙一点。
You're gonna be more busy by a snidgen,
你要么就说要做，现在就做；要么就别做。
on Yeah, yeah, mean, so you know, either you say you're gonna do it and do it now or say don't do it.
说要做，却又拖上四个星期，这根本说不通。
But to say I'm gonna do it but I can't do it for four weeks, doesn't
说得对。
make
四个星期后，你肯定又有别的事要处理了。
any sense because in four weeks you'll have something else to do.
你们之间有过冲突吗？
Have there been moments of conflict between you?
我只是惊讶，你难道不觉得
I'm just amazed that don't you
我觉得不会。
think so.
不会。
No.
都二十年了，你们还像两个在食堂里笑个不停的小孩一样。
I It's just been twenty years and you're just laughing like, you know, two kids at a cafeteria.
真是不可思议。
It's just incredible.
我们 somehow 不会把自尊心和事情的结果绑得太紧。
We somehow don't like emotionally get our egos too much connected to how the thing is gonna turn out.
所以咱们都能专心找最对的答案。
So we can actually both focus on what's the right answer.
我就是这么想的。
That's how I would put it.
那你怎么说？
But what would you say?
说起来挺有意思的，我们平时经常意见不合，也会争得面红耳赤，但正因如此才有趣。
I mean, it's funny because we disagree about things all the time and we argue about things and that's part of what's fun.
但我从来不会对泰勒说，你就不该写那篇帖子，或者你这方向搞错了。
But I would never say to Tyler, Oh you shouldn't have written that post or this is going in the wrong direction.
你知道，这就是
You know, this is
就是彼此信任。
do this think that trust.
当然，和其他同事就不是这样了。
With all my other colleagues, of course.
是的，我确实如此。
Yeah, I do.
两个人都是这样。
Both do.
有时候我们会一起讨论。
Sometimes we'll both discuss.
他们自己心里清楚是谁。
And they know who they are.
如果你在听，我想让你知道。
If you're listening, I want you to know.
我说的就是你。
I mean you.
是的，当然。
Yeah, absolutely.
你觉得你的写作有什么变化吗，亚历克斯？
How do you feel like your writing has changed, Alex?
definitely 有进步。
So it's definitely gotten better.
尤其是在网上，你得赶紧说重点，因为读者动动手指就能划走，对吧？
Especially on the Internet, you know you have to get to the point very quickly because people are one click away from leaving you, right?
所以这种精神上的点心就是，你发一篇帖子，人家十分钟就能看完，获得一点满足感，然后接着干别的。
So that's part of the dim sum for the mind is that you get the post, you can read it in ten minutes or whatever, and you get the dopamine hit, you know, and you can move on.
所以，专门写这种篇幅的内容，我觉得我们现在已经很擅长了。
So just crafting things of that length, I think we've gotten very good at.
而且我们各自也发展出了不同的写作风格。
And we've each developed more separate modes of writing.
比如我写专栏的时候，就会戴上专栏作者的帽子，而不是博客作者的帽子，等等。
So if I'm writing a column, I put my column hat on as opposed to the blog hat and so on.
刚开始的时候，要做到这一点其实挺难的。
And, that's hard to do when you start.
你连一种能驾驭的风格都还在摸索。
You're struggling to get one mode you can work with.
但随着时间推移，我们每个人都能掌握更多种风格了。
And, we each have more modes over time.
你就像是大卫·鲍伊，切换不同的角色。
You're like David Bowie with his different characters.
没错。
Sure.
顺便说一下，他是加拿大人。
He's Canadian, by the way.
这可能也是我们合作中很重要的一点。
And maybe this is an important part of the collaboration.
他出生并成长在加拿大。
He was born and grew up in Canada.
不知怎么的，这让我们有了些不同的视角。
And somehow, that gives us slightly different perspectives.
你得透过加拿大人的视角来看美国，然后把这些融合起来。
And you've had to see America through Canadian eyes and synthesize that.
我也在不少其他国家生活过。
And I've lived in a bunch of other countries.
我觉得，这些经历凑在一起，是很重要的。
And somehow that coming together, I feel, matters.
有些作者写东西的时候，我特别不认同，因为他们一辈子都没出过国。
Some of the people I object to when they write things, they've never lived anywhere but here.
我觉得这是个普遍的现象。
I find that's a common element.
没错。
Yeah.
泰勒，我注意到你写过，很多经济学家高估了人们动机的相似性。
Because one of the things that I've seen you write, Tyler, is that a lot of economists overestimate the similarities of people's motivations.
你还说过，艺术和旅行是克服这个问题的好方法。
And you've said art and travel is a really good way to combat that.
因为它会让你变得谦逊，你会看到太多自己完全不懂的事情。
And it humbles you because you see so much you clearly don't know what's going on.
确实有些人旅行的方式根本不会遇到这种情况。
And there's plenty of people who travel in a way where they don't encounter that.
他们只是去玩，这也没问题。
They just travel for fun, that's fine.
但想要真正理解当地的文化密码，这对我而言是生活的重要部分，不只是写作而已。
But to try to be in there cracking the cultural codes is a big part of how I think about my life as a whole, not just the writing.
这对你写作也有帮助，因为你能从不同角度表达观点，也能更好地理解他人的立场。
And it helps you with the writing because you can express things from different perspectives and understand different perspectives.
是的，我曾经在博客上问过一个问题，比如你要预测一个人的观点，假设是个法国人，你是更想知道他是经济学家，还是更想知道他是法国人？
Yeah, I once asked on the blog, you know, if you had to predict someone's views, say if a French person, would you rather know that they were an economist or that they were, you know, French, right?
我觉得知道他是法国人，其实能告诉你更多信息，比知道他是经济学家还管用，尽管我们总说应该有个统一的模型什么的。
And I think knowing that they're French actually tells you a lot more than knowing that they're economists even though supposedly we should have some one unified model and so forth.
但实际上，你会得到截然不同的视角。
But actually you get very different perspectives.
然后你就会开始想，我的偏见到底是什么？
And then you start wondering, Well, what are my biases?
这些偏见没法彻底消除，但至少可以看清它们的边界，把它们放在更广阔的背景里去理解。
And you can't get rid of them, but you can at least encircle them and see them in some kind of broader perspective.
我们希望传达的，正是这种意识。
And one hopes communicate that.
我们的读者来自各种不同的政治立场、宗教背景，还有许多不同的国家。
And we have people reading us from a lot of different political, religious points of view, a lot of different countries.
我觉得他们有一种感觉，即使不同意我们的观点，他们的视角在我们这里依然受到欢迎，哪怕那并不是我们自己的立场。
And I think they have a sense that even if they disagree with us, at some level, like their perspective is very welcome where we are, even if it's not ours.
很多其他人的文字，我觉得根本没传达出这种态度。
And a lot of writing by other people, I feel, doesn't communicate that.
就像你爱要不要，完全不给商量余地。
It's a bit like take it or leave it.
很多专栏作家，你知道的，一上来就摆出定论，也许这样反而更受欢迎。
A lot of columnists, you know, they lay down the line, maybe that's even popular.
但你从他们那儿感受到的，就是那种爱要不要的态度。
But it's a take it or leave it attitude you get from them.
你觉得你的写作风格会影响这一点吗？
Do you think that your writing style influences that?
我特别注意到的一点是，泰勒，你的文字有一种温和的气质。
Like, one of the things that I definitely noticed with you, Tyler, is you have a sort of softness to the way that you write.
其实昨晚吃饭的时候，我们还聊到了高语境文化和低语境文化的区别。
And actually, last night at dinner, we were talking about high context cultures and low context cultures.
高语境文化里头，很多意思都是藏在背景里的，不用明说。
So a high context culture has there's a lot of assumptions that that are embedded within that.
比如日本就是高语境文化，而低语境文化呢，说话特别直接，开门见山，该给的全给你。
So Japan is a high context culture, and then a low context culture, everything's very direct and sharp and to the point we're gonna give you everything.
你其实是个高语境的写作者。
And you're sort of a higher context writer.
你给读者留了思考的空间。
You leave room for interpretation.
我觉得正因如此，你的文字才有一种自然的流动感，这也让整体显得更亲切。
And I think through that, there's there's sort of a flow in your writing that I think contributes to that friendliness.
我喜欢用这种方式筛选读者。
I like having that as a filter on who reads us.
不该太容易读懂。
Like, shouldn't be too easy.
有一句话我很喜欢：语境，就是那些稀缺的东西。
Context is that which is scarce, is one of my favorite sayings.
而且给你写邮件的人素质也更高。
And you get better people writing you emails.
你会建立起更优质的社交网络，更深厚的联系，从阅读或收听你内容的人那里学到更多。
And you end up with a better social network, better connections, learning more from those who read or listen to you.
对我来说，这好处太大了。
And for me, that's a huge plus.
这可能是最大的优势。
That's maybe the biggest plus.
我觉得这对我们的读者也有帮助，他们逐渐习惯了泰勒那种高语境的表达方式。
I think that helps with our readers too in the sense that they get accustomed to Tyler's high context.
结果他们再遇到低语境的风格，比如像迎面一拳那样直来直去，就受不了了。
And then they'll get a low context, you know, pose for me like a punch in the gut.
天啊，他们真的会生气，对吧？
And oh my god, know, they get angry, right?
而且我们每个人身边，大概都有些人更喜欢泰勒，有些人更喜欢我，诸如此类。
And probably, each of us has, you know, some people favor Tyler, some people favor me, whatever.
但我们的观众听双方说话，其实也受益匪浅，对吧？
But each of our viewers benefits from hearing the other person, you know, as well, right?
我觉得这一点很重要。
So I think that's important.
在我看来，这个博客必须是个双方共同经营的项目。
And it really needs to be a joint enterprise, the blog, in my opinion.
我们希望传递出一种默契的友情，这种氛围特别吸引人。
There's something about an underlying sense of camaraderie that we hope comes through that people find very attractive.
某种程度上，你得把你的博客当成一部情景喜剧来看。
In some ways, you need to think about your blog a bit like a TV sitcom.
就像《宋飞正传》那样。
You think of like Seinfeld.
别管他们互相扔多少狠话，
You know, getting past all the vicious insults they would hurl at each other.
你都能感受到，他们其实特别享受聚在杰瑞客厅里，或者一起去餐厅的时光。
Just you would sense how much they enjoy all meeting in Jerry's living room or going out to the diner.
读者从博客或新闻网站上也应该获得这种感受。
And they should take that away from a blog or news site as well.
是啊，很多人都想来参加乔治梅森大学的午餐，对吧？
Yeah, like so many people wanna come for lunch, the GMU lunch, right?
当然了。
Of course.
因为这已经成了一种传统，对吧？
Because that's become a thing, right?
因为我们已经把它变成了一种标志，某种程度上，这就是博客的一个隐喻。
Because we've sort of made it, you And know, into a so that's kind of one of the, you know, the metaphors or something like that of the blog.
你有没有发现，你们的对话常常成为博客文章的素材？
Do you find that the conversations that you have lead to a lot of your blog posts?
我写的大部分内容都源自对话。
So much of what I write stems from conversation.
我不太擅长一个人坐着苦想，或者在洗澡、散步时硬憋出点子。
I don't think I'm great at sitting down and just thinking up stuff or in the shower when walking.
很多人都这么做，挺好的。
Many people do that, good for them.
但我在这方面很不擅长。
But I'm very bad at that.
我需要跟文字互动，或者更好的是，跟人对话。
I need some kind of interaction with a text or better yet, with a person, a dialogue.
这样思路才活跃起来，想法也更多了。
And then, sort of gets the blood moving and I have more ideas.
你有时候会在洗澡时想问题吗？
Are you a shower guy at times?
是的，我更偏向于在洗澡时思考。
Yeah, more of a shower guy.
不，我从来不在洗澡时想问题。
Yeah, never a shower guy.
对我来说，洗澡就是冲水和用肥皂。
Showers to me is about water and soap.
说说那个顿悟的时刻吧。
So talk about that moment for epiphany.
这种时刻在你生活中是怎么出现的？
How does that show up in your life?
就是你正在洗澡的时候。
It's you're in the shower.
你冲出来的时候？
What do you storm out?
我身上还全是肥皂泡呢。
I've still got soap all over my body.
我得赶紧记下来。
I need to write this.
还是说，这更像是一道需要慢慢炖的菜？
Or is it more of a more of a stew that takes a while to broil?
是啊，比如我写过一篇关于专利制度的论文。
Yeah, so I mean like one of my papers I wrote on the patent system.
那时候还是互联网泡沫初期。
And so this was early in the .com2thousand.
我住在奥克兰，周围的人都在发财，那是第一次热潮，我就有了这个想法。
I was living in Oakland and so everyone around me was getting rich and this was you know the first boom and so I had this idea.
你用手机拍一下条形码，就能获取产品信息、价格之类的，对吧？
So you take your cellphone and you take a picture of the barcode and then you get information about the product and prices and you know things like this, right?
现在听起来挺平常的，但那时候可是新鲜事。
This sounds obvious now but it was new back then.
我当时就觉得，这真是个好点子。
And then, I thought, oh, this is a great idea.
于是我去专利系统里查了一下。
And I looked it up on the patent system.
结果发现，已经有人申请了三个相关的专利。
I found like there were already three patents on this already.
我还以为这想法是我洗澡时突然想到的呢。
And I thought, I just thought of this in my shower.
你怎么可能就因为洗澡时想到个点子就申请到专利呢？
Like how could you get a patent on something you just thought of in the shower?
那些专利本身，其实跟我刚才说的没什么区别。
Like the actual patents, they were not any better than I've just described to you.
简直就是有人把我洗澡时冒出的想法，直接拿去写成了专利申请。
So it was literally some guy taking what I wanted to do, in the shower and writing it down.
我觉得光靠一个想法就拿专利，这说不通。
I thought you shouldn't be able to get a patent for just an idea.
你得真有实际投入，才算数。
You should actually have to have some fixed costs.
专利制度的本意，就是当创新成本远高于模仿成本的时候才起作用。
That's the whole point of the patent system is when the innovation costs are much higher than the imitation costs.
要是连洗澡时想到的东西都能申请专利，那就完全背离了专利制度的初衷。
To just be able to patent stuff you think in your shower, that doesn't actually reflect what we want the patent system to be doing.
后来我就把这个想法写成了一篇论文。
So that turned into a paper I wrote.
你聊聊模仿和创新吧。
Talk to me about imitation and innovation.
这个话题挺有意思的。
That's an interesting thread.
咱们看看能不能把它跟MR联系起来，真的很吸引人。
Let's see if we can wrap it into MR, but that's fascinating.
制药行业就是个经典例子，第一颗药的研发成本高达十亿美元，而第二颗药的成本只要五毛钱，对吧？
Pharmaceuticals are the classic example where the first pill costs a billion dollars and the second pill costs 50¢, right?
一旦配方公开，如果谁都能仿制，价格就会被压到五毛钱。
And so, if you let anybody imitate once the formula is known, then price is driven down to 50¢.
那个花十亿美元研发出第一颗药的人，根本收不回研发成本。
And the guy who innovated, you know, spent a billion dollars to get the first pill with the formula, they don't have enough money to recoup their research and development costs.
所以，从经济学家的角度来看，专利制度的核心就是得给创新者一段垄断期，好让他们能把投入赚回来。
So the idea of the patent system, at least the way the economists talk about it, is that you need to give some monopoly in order to let the first guy recoup his costs.
但现实中的法律条文，根本完全不谈创新和模仿的成本问题。
But when it comes to the actual law, there's no discussion of innovation and imitation costs at all.
所以经济理论在实际的专利法里根本没体现。
So the economic theory is not reflected in the actual patent law.
所以我建议，也许可以设立三种专利期限：三年、十年和二十年。
And so one of my suggestions was we ought to maybe have a patent system of say three years, ten years, and twenty years.
如果你想要三年的专利，没问题，我们很快就能批给你。
If you want a three year patent, okay, fine, we just give it to you, pretty quick.
但如果你想要十年或二十年的专利，那就得证明你确实投入了研发成本。
If you want a ten or a twenty year patent, then you better show you've spent some money on research and development costs.
这很有意思。
Interesting.
我们之前聊过对话的事，我跟学生说的时候，他们总说：天啊，我写作卡住了。
We were talking earlier about conversation and when I talked to my students, they're like, oh my goodness, I have writer's block.
我就跟他们说，从对话开始就好。
I would say right from conversation.
找几个能聊得来的人，把你的想法跟他们聊聊，然后学会留意什么时候冒出个有意思的想法——不管是你自己的，还是对方提出来的。很多时候，这样就能点燃他们的灵感，让他们有动力继续下去。
Find people who you can have a good conversation with, talk to them about the ideas, and then just learn to recognize when there's an interesting idea that's emerging, either from you, from the other person, and often that gets people going, gives them momentum.
但还有一种从对话中衍生的写作方式，就是你分享内容后，读者会给你反馈。
But there's another form of writing from conversation, which is you share something and then your readers respond.
我觉得《边际革命》的一大优势，就是它的评论区随着时间推移越来越活跃。
And I think that one of the big benefits of Marginal Revolution is that the comment section has really grown over time.
现在一篇帖子常常有两百多条评论，每周都有成千上万的人参与互动。
Now often you have 200 comments on a post, and so there's a two way interaction with literally thousands of people a week.
这些评论的水平参差不齐。
Those are high variance, those comments.
它们可能非常有帮助，有时候甚至特别精彩。
They can be very useful, sometimes wonderful.
但很多时候也特别消极。
But, they're often very pessimistic.
互联网有时候确实会把人最负面的一面激发出来。
And the Internet does bring out people's worst sides at times.
评论区也恰恰反映了这一点。
And their comment section reflects that as well.
是的，最有价值的评论通常是有人能找出世界上这个领域的顶尖专家，他们提供一些真实的数据。
Yeah, usually the most valuable comments is when somebody, you can find somebody in the world who is like the number one expert on this topic and they have some facts.
评论区对理论探讨没什么用。
The comment section is terrible for theory.
对。
Yes.
但很多时候，评论里会冒出一些大家知道的、确实很有趣的事实。
But quite often, there'll be some facts which people will know and sure are interesting.
这些内容都是在评论区里浮现出来的。
That comes out in the comments section.
它还能让你了解别人在想什么，哪怕那些想法很糟糕。
It's also a way to gauge what other people are thinking, even when it's terrible.
你能看出哪里出了问题，我觉得这很有帮助。
You learn where the terribleness is at, and I find that quite useful.
有时候可能会让人有点泄气。
Maybe at times discouraging.
但别忘了，很多人看网上的内容，就是为了挑刺儿，不管是在评论区还是在推特上。
But keep in mind, a big reason why people read online material is to take the writers down a peg, whether in the comments section or on Twitter.
从心理上讲，你得做好被攻击的准备。
Psychologically, you've got to be steeled for that.
这也是为什么博客文章越来越少——你得足够超然，别把自我和读者的反馈搅在一起，不然真的会伤得很重。
It's another reason blog writing is a bit scarce, that you have to be quite detached and separate your ego from the interactions or people just get too hurt.
我们通常不希望一篇文章引来大量评论。
We're usually not happy when a post gets a huge number of comments.
没错。
Exactly.
这通常是个不好的信号。
Think It's usually a bad sign.
这确实是个不好的信号。
It's usually a bad sign.
我觉得评论最多的一篇，是泰勒写过一篇关于莎拉·佩林的文章。
I think the number one post for comments was Tyler just wrote a post, Sarah Palin, comment.
那帖子有上千条评论。
That's like a thousand comments.
整篇帖子就光是这些评论了。
It's all the post was.
而且全是理论性的内容。
And it's all theory.
对吧？
Right?
真正有见地的想法少之又少。
Very few thoughts.
没错。
Exactly.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过还有另一个评论渠道，就是直接发邮件。
But there's another comment section which is direct emails.
那些都特别棒。
And those are excellent.
我说过，我收到的邮件里有八成左右都非常有价值。
Like I said, 80% or so of the email I get is really worthwhile.
我们认识就是因为你给我发了邮件。
And we met by you called emailing me.
那正是我收到过的优质邮件的典型例子。
That would be an example of a great email I got.
所以，让邮件这个渠道继续保持它长期以来的良好状态，对我来说非常重要。
So, keeping that working the way it's been working for a long time is really a priority for me.
是的，还有通过邮件认识世界各地的人，他们本来就知道你，还邀请你去演讲什么的，你接触的都是相当高层次的人。
Yeah, and getting introductions to people all over the world who sort of know you and invite you to come give a talk or something like that, you've been a very high level group of people.
世界上几乎任何一个城市你都能去。
And almost any city in the world you can go to.
可能平壤除外，但比如说，我要去那儿，帮个忙。
Maybe not Pyongyang, but just say, I'm going there, like, help.
是的
Yeah.
你能从中学到很多东西。
And you get so much out of that.
不管是实用建议，还是世界各地的人愿意花时间陪你，几乎哪里都行，除了像朝鲜这样的地方，我觉得那是个例外。
Either tips or people actually spending time with you, literally anywhere in the world, with a few exceptions like, I think, North Korea is probably an exception.
我订旅行时，第一件事就是用MR搜索目的地。
When I book travel, I search the place I'm going for in MR as the very first thing I do.
这真是个好习惯。
It's a great thing to do.
Marginal Revolution的搜索功能被严重低估了。
Marginal Revolution search function is extremely underrated.
我同意。
I agree.
对。
Yeah.
还有哪些地方是MR被低估的？
What else is underrated about MR?
接下来我们要谈被高估的部分。
Then we're gonna do overrated.
所以别担心会抬高你们的自我感觉，因为我们马上就要反过来说了。
So don't worry about inflating your egos here because we're coming the opposite way in a second.
不会的。
No.
如果让我自己说，它几乎没什么被高估的。
Very little about it is overrated, if I may say so myself.
但有时候，帖子会在凌晨一两点发布。
But sometimes, you know, posts go up at one or 2AM.
别人以为我那时候还在写文章。
People think I'm writing at that hour.
其实根本不是这么回事。
I'm like, no way.
都是自动发布的。
It's all on auto publish.
真没想到居然有这么多人误会这一点。
It amazes me how many people have that misconception.
我也有这个误会。
I have that misconception.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
我还没搞清楚自动发布到底是怎么运作的。
I haven't figured out if auto publish.
而且你总是凌晨一点二十六分发布内容。
Well, also, you auto publish at, like, 01:26AM.
要是正好一点三十，我肯定会觉得是自动发布的。
Like if it was 01:30, I'd be like, oh, that's auto publish.
但你选的时间也太随机了吧。
But you pick the most random times.
这本来就是随机选的，对吧？
Well, it's picked randomly, right?
分钟是设置自动发布时系统当前的分钟数，小时你可以改，但分钟会直接沿用原来的。
So the minute will be given by what minute it's at when you're setting up the auto publish and the hour you change and you just inherit the minute.
我觉得搜索功能被低估了，说实话，用起来有点让人失望。
I think the underrated is the search function in the sense it's a little bit disappointing.
最让人遗憾的是，大家把它当报纸看，看完就扔了。
The biggest disappointment is that people, it's like a newspaper, people read it and then it's gone.
也不总是这样，但确实有很多有智慧、很棒的帖子，结果慢慢就被埋没了，没人再回头去看。
Not always, but you know, there's a lot of wisdom, a lot of good posts which are sort of, you know, become diffuse and forget about and people don't refer to them again and things like that.
其实回头翻一翻能学到很多，但大家都不这么做，这我能理解，不过这确实是我最大的遗憾。
But there's a lot one could learn by going back and people don't do that, which is understandable, but that would be my one sort of disappointment.
跟我说说沃尔特·格兰德吧。
Tell me about Walter Grinder.
他早年是我导师。
He was an early mentor of mine.
我认识沃尔特的时候，大概十四岁，他是个读过非常多书的人。
I met Walter, I believe I was 14, and he was this guy who had just read so many books.
从他身上，我学到最重要的一点是：一个人完全可以读这么多书。除此之外，我还学到了很多具体的道理。
And the notion that you could be a person who had read so many books was the biggest thing I learned from Walter, in addition to a lot of particulars.
可惜他几个月前去世了。
He sadly passed away a few months ago.
但我觉得，年轻的时候能遇到一些能当榜样的人特别重要，他们让你真切地看到，原来你可以成为作家，可以每天写作，可以读遍这些书——而这一切，都活生生地体现在一个真实的人身上。
But I think it's very important when you're young just to meet people who can be role models, to make vivid for you, Oh, like you can be a writer, you can be someone who writes every day, you can read all these books, and that it's instantiated in the form of a living, breathing, walking human.
在现在的网络世界里，我们可能恰恰低估了这一点。
In an online universe, maybe we're underrating that right now.
我觉得自己很幸运，我孩子成长过程中，有布莱恩·卡普兰、罗宾·汉森和泰勒这样的导师，而且他们不只是导师，更是真实的人。
Yeah, I feel very fortunate that my kids grew up with like Brian Kaplan and Robin Hanson and Tyler as mentors and but also as people.
他们和布莱恩·卡普兰一起玩过无数个小时的《龙与地下城》。
They've spent many many hours playing Dungeons and Dragons with Brian Kaplan.
对吧？
Right?
但你确实能学到很多东西。
And, but you learn a lot.
通过这种方式，我孩子们经常听到说，‘泰勒要来了。’
You learn a lot that way and just, my kids will hear, oh Tyler's coming over.
你得做好准备。
You know, be prepared.
这个人啊，就是这样的。
This is somebody, know, things like that.
是的，我觉得很幸运。
Yeah, I feel fortunate.
我孩子们是在这样一个特殊的环境里长大的。
My kids have grown up in this very specialized, environment.
他们俩都开了自己的通讯简报，这还挺有意思的。
And both of them have sub stacks, which is kind of amusing.
现在我见到马克斯的时候，比见到康纳还多，我就直接坐到他旁边，说：‘好了，马克斯，今天我们聊点啥？’
And now when I see Max, I see him more than Connor, I'll just sit down next to him, Okay Max, what are we gonna talk about?
就像以前那样，问问他今天想谈什么。
Just like, What's it gonna be?
跟以前一样。
Like we used to do.
你们经常见面吗？
How often do you hang out?
通常都是在小团体里碰面，但真的一次都没一起出去喝过酒。
It's usually in small group settings, but we don't just go out for beers ever, really.
我们总是在一些活动里碰上，比如吃午饭，或者参加各种聚会和活动。
We end up at stuff together, there's lunch, there's different group settings, events.
泰勒的办公室就在我隔壁，所以我们经常见面
Tyler's office is just down the hall from mine, so we see each
只要我们俩都在，每天都会开个会，但特别随意，有时候就五分钟而已。
If we're both in, we have like a meeting every But day that we're both it's a very informal meeting and it can be just five minutes long.
然后我们偶尔会出现在同一个地方，这种事已经发生过好几次了，而且都不是故意的。
And then we might find ourselves in the same place which has happened more than once, even not intentionally.
我们俩曾经同时在韩国参加不同的会议。
Were both in South Korea at the same time at conferences.
我们一起去过印度，也旅行过几次，甚至还去了萨尔瓦多。
We've been to India together, we've done some travels, even went to El Salvador.
萨尔瓦多，是啊，没错。
El Salvador, yeah, yeah.
就是图个开心。
Just for fun.
那趟旅行真有意思。
That was fun.
那会儿萨尔瓦多的凶杀率还没降下来。
That's before the murder rate fell also.
那时候真正的男人会去
When real men went to
萨尔瓦多。
El Salvador.
没错。
Exactly.
亚历克斯，我知道你特别喜欢《继承之战》的剧本，为什么呢？
Alex, I know you really liked the writing in the show Succession, how come?
是的。
Yeah.
我说啊，第三季特别有意思，因为最后一两分钟整个剧情彻底反转了，对吧？
I mean season three was very, very interesting because the, everything changed in like the final two minutes of that show, right?
你对之前发生的一切的理解也随之改变了，但这一切完全是由人物驱动的。
And your interpretation of everything which had happened before changed and yet it was entirely character driven.
现在太多剧集都是靠一些莫名其妙的情节推动，你知道的。
It's like so many shows today you just have some, you know, it's driven by some random plot element, right?
突然发生点啥，然后就那样了。
Something happens and you know, this is whatever.
这是偷懒的写法。
It's lazy writing.
但《继承之战》里的一切都合情合理。
But on Succession everything is totally logical.
你能从人物身上清楚地看出发生了什么。
You can understand exactly what happened from the characters.
即使你一开始没猜到，到最后也会恍然大悟：原来如此。
And even though you might not have predicted it like at the end you say oh my god yes I see that.
所有线索其实早就摆在那里，最后两分钟，拼图的最后一块终于落位。
You know it's all, it was all laid out for me to see and in that final two minutes the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle goes in.
天啊，我完全没看出来。
Oh my god, I didn't see it.
这真是绝妙的编剧手法。
But it's all was, it just was a brilliant piece of writing.
电影和电视剧有没有影响过MR对故事和叙事的理解？
Have movies and TV shaped MR in any sort of way with stories and narrative?
这博客内容挺实事求是的，不过有时候这些灵感来源，比如泰勒，我知道你特别爱看电影。
It's a fairly fairly factual blog, but sometimes these inspirations, like Tyler, I know that you love movies.
那电影是怎么影响你的写作的呢？
How does that shape your writing?
一方面，确实可以写电影相关的博客，但更深层来说，它逼着你去思考：到底是什么东西吸引人们去关注某样东西。
Well, in part, one can blog about movies, but I think on a deeper level, it forces you to think critically what attracts people to a something.
虽然我平时看得很少，但我觉得电视剧对MR的影响其实比电影更大。
In television shows, although I watch very little TV, but I think they've influenced MR more than movies.
我有时候会拿TNT的中场秀做例子，查尔斯·巴克利和肯尼·史密斯——现在还有沙克——他们能把气氛和数据分析完美融合在一起。
I sometimes cite the TNT halftime show with Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith, now Shaq, as a way of generating camaraderie and analytics together.
他们的这种搭配真的很有效。
And their blend works.
我们不是要照搬他们，但当你看到一些成功的范例，比如《宋飞正传》里的客厅场景，你就更能清楚自己写作的目标在哪。
It's not that I or we try to copy them, but when you have a few examples, or like the Seinfeld living room, I think you approach your own efforts with a much clearer sense of purpose.
你是在努力打造属于自己的版本，但前提是你得先看到别人是怎么做成功的。
You're trying to create your own version of that, but you have to see some other successes of it first.
但电影在营造这种氛围上反而很弱。
Now movies are oddly poor at generating that.
你看《星球大战》里的英雄们聚在一起，可电影一结束就散了。
So you can have the Star Wars heroes together and then the movie ends.
电视剧那种连续性，博客能抓住，电影却做不到。
There's something about the TV show that's serial that the blog captures and a movie wouldn't.
另一个类似的例子是《一级方程式：求生之战》，对吧？
Another interesting one like that is this Formula One drive to survive, right?
有意思的是，每一集的内容都完全一样。
What's interesting about that is that every single episode is exactly the same.
但它制作得实在太精良了，对吧？
Yet it is so well crafted, right?
车手们的崛起、其他人的陨落，风险与回报，这些故事都很动人。
The story of the rise of some drivers, the fall of others, you know risk and reward.
它制作得如此出色，看多少集都不会腻，每一集都值得看。
And it's just so well crafted that you could watch many episodes and each one is interesting.
所以我觉得博客也有点像这样，每天在MR上内容看似差不多，但每次又都有点新意，总会有起有落。甚至在每一篇博文里，我都会刻意安排节奏，让文章有个高潮，最后用一句精辟的话收尾，给你来个点睛之笔。
And so I think the blog is a little bit like that in that in a sense every day on MR is sort of the same but yet it's all a little bit new and you're gonna get some rise and some fall and you know even within a blog post itself I try and craft things so that there is a you know a climax to the post and you hit them at the end with a pithy saying or something like that.
我觉得这一点很重要。
So I think that's important.
还有《抑制热情》这部剧，它的创作方式其实受了博客的影响。
And Curb Your Enthusiasm influenced by blog writing.
你看拉里·戴维，他总会在剧里埋下很多对早期剧集的引用，但从不解释这些细节。
So you see Larry David, he'll put in all these references to other much earlier episodes and never try to explain them.
他有这个胆量这么做。
So he has the courage to do that.
看到有人能一直这么坚持，我们其实也可以做到。
And just to see someone do that so consistently, and we can do the same.
Marginal Revolution 上早年的文章多得很。
There's plenty of early episodes on Marginal Revolution.
我们就这么干，哪怕只有十七个人能看懂，也值了。
Know, we're just gonna do this and maybe 17 people will get it.
这样挺好。
That's fine.
这怎么就算好文笔了？
Why is that good writing?
我觉得这算不上好文笔。
I don't think it's good writing.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我只是觉得，这样能让我每天都想继续写下去。
I don't It keeps me interested in doing it again the next day.
从这个角度来说，它算好文笔。
In that sense, it's good writing.
这在某种程度上，是个关键的限制条件。
That's, in a way, the binding constraint.
从边际上看，我们其实拿不到报酬。
At the margin, we're not paid.
我们本来可以做别的事，赚得更多。
There's other stuff we could do that would pay us more.
所以这事得有意思才行。
So it better be fun.
得有意思。
Better be fun.
对。
Yeah.
乔治梅森大学似乎特别适合做这件事。
It seems like George Mason was the perfect place to do this.
因为我担心，要是你在哈佛或者那种名声太夸张的学校，就很难去尝试新东西。
Because I worry if you were at Harvard or some institution that had this crazy reputation, it's sort of hard to experiment.
但如果你在一所特别普通的学校，又缺乏公信力。
But if you were at some very C grade school, it wouldn't have the credibility.
MR这种模式正好适合乔治梅森，以及我们这样的学校。
MR was perfectly suited for George Mason and the kind of school that we have here.
我们系里还有其他博客。
There are other blogs in our department.
我觉得挺有意思，比如我去哈佛访问的时候，不管去哪儿，哈佛的人对我都特别客气，反而我没那么待见他们。
I find it interesting, like if I'm at Harvard visiting, anywhere really, the people at Harvard are nicer to me than I am to them.
我不是说我对他们不友好，但他们明显在主动讨好我。
I don't mean that I'm a jerk to them, but they're courting me in some way.
某种程度上，他们嘴上不承认这事儿有多重要，也许确实也没当真。
So at some level, they won't admit that they take it seriously, and maybe in some ways they don't.
但我要再说一遍，他们对我比我对他们客气多了。
But again, I would reiterate, they go to far greater lengths to be nicer to me than I do to them.
而且这一点随着时间推移也确实变了。
And that has definitely changed over time as well.
我们刚起步那会儿，写博客算不上什么体面的事，但后来随着实证经济学兴起，经济学开始频繁出现在《纽约时报》上，专栏作者里也有不少经济学家，情况就不一样了。
Like when we started, blogging was definitely a sort of low status But thing to then particularly with the rise of, you know, empirical economics and you start getting economics regularly referred to, you know, in the New York Times and the columnists who are economists and things like that.
大家都想吸引关注，对吧？
People wanted attention, right?
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