阿德里安·柴可夫斯基：如何创作伟大的科幻小说 | 我的写作之道

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这还包括了腿。

I mean, that's kind of including legs.

所以它们确实很大。

So they're they are they are big.

它们大约有猫那么大，但对蜘蛛来说已经算很大了。

They're about, you know, the size of a cat or so, but they're you know, it's big for a spider.

我的意思是，我喜欢蜘蛛，但通过那本书，我也很清楚，大多数人其实不喜欢蜘蛛。

Well, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I I like spiders a lot, but also with that book, I'm well aware that, basically, most people don't like spiders.

所以我想要写一本关于共情、人类对其他生物的共情的书。

So I wanted a book about empathy, human empathy with the other.

如果你能对蜘蛛产生共情，那你就能对任何事物产生共情。

And if you can do that with spiders, you can do that with anything.

所以当时对孩子来说，这是一个巨大的挑战。

And so that was the big challenge with children at a time.

但没错，我也需要我的蜘蛛尽可能具有科学合理性，因此那次特定的探险目的就在于此。

But, yes, I also I needed my spiders to be as scientifically plausible as possible, And so that was the the purpose of that particular sort of retails expedition.

请原谅我的无知，但为什么科学合理性这么重要？

And forgive my ignorance, but why why is scientifically plausible important?

这对你作为作家来说是一种自豪感吗，还是说，大卫，不是。

Is that like a pride thing for you as the writer, or is that David, no.

这个故事需要科学合理性，因为这些原因。

The story needs scientific plausibility for this, this, and this reason.

所以，主要是第二个原因。

So it's I mean, it's mostly the second.

我不会说第一个原因不存在，我特别珍视当有人这么说的时候：是的。

I'm not gonna say that the first isn't there, and I always particularly cherish if someone basically says, yes.

我是这个领域的专业人士，而你确实准确把握了我所熟知的这一点。

I am a professional in this area, and, yes, you basically nailed this thing that I am knowledgeable about.

这总让我感到一丝喜悦。

And I that's always a bit of a joy thing.

非常正确。

Very true.

这就像做一张桌子，所有桌腿都接触到地面，不会晃动。

That is you know, I it's it's the equivalent of making a table where all the legs touch the ground and it doesn't wobble.

你做得很好，我建得很扎实。

You've done I've built that well.

是的。

Yeah.

但科学启发的科幻作品有一种特定的呈现方式，这是奇幻作品不一定具备的。

But there is a particular way that science informed science fiction lands that fantasy doesn't necessarily.

所以，如果我写一本关于会说话的魔法蜘蛛的书，它就不会有同样的影响力，因为人们会知道，这明显只是一个故事。

So that if I had written a book about just magical talking spiders, it wouldn't have had the same impact because people would have known, well, this is obviously it's a story.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，你一定也听过别人谈论‘一个大谎言’这个概念。

I mean, you you must have had other people talking about the idea of the one big lie.

不。

No.

哦，对了。

Oh, right.

好吧。

Okay.

嗯，有这么一个观点。

Well, there is this idea.

也许这特别是一种科幻奇幻的概念，但你有一个想法，就是可以蒙混过关一个大谎言。

Maybe it's a science fiction fantasy thing in particular, but you have the idea that you can get away with one big lie.

而这个就是，你知道的，书中一个方便的设定，用来让情节按照你想要的方式发展，这就是你的那个大谎言。

And it's just, you know, that one thing which is just convenient to have in the book to make the plot work in the way that you want, and that is your one big lie.

但为了支撑你的这个大谎言，其他所有内容都必须是真实的。

But in order to support your one big lie, everything else needs to be true.

那么在不同的故事中，这样的例子有哪些呢？

So what would examples of that be in different stories?

在《时间之子》中，是的。

In children of time Yeah.

有一个大的谎言，但那不是蜘蛛。

There is a big lie, but it is not the spiders.

这个大谎言是，确实存在一种纳米病毒，它在帮助蜘蛛的提升，而谎言在于这种提升所需的时间。

This the big lie is literally there is this, nanovirus which is assisting the uplift of the spiders, and the lie is the amount of time that that uplift will take.

由于纳米病毒的存在，这一过程只需数万年，而不是实际进化所需的数亿年。

Because of the nanovirus, it happens in tens of thousands of years rather than hundreds of millions of years, which you would need for actual evolution.

但书中所描述的进化过程尽可能真实可信，因为这正是赋予这本书力量的关键。

But the evolution that's going on is as plausible and real as I can make it because that's what gives the book its effect.

它的核心理念是，读者读完这本书后会思考，并感到这一切是有可能发生的。

It is the idea that people will read the book and think and come away feeling this is a thing that could happen.

这种特定的蜘蛛物种，是一种认知上极为复杂的蜘蛛。

These, this particular species of spider, which is it's an enormously cognitively complex species of spider.

这本书实际上受到一些研究这种蜘蛛的科学家论文的启发，他们发现了巨型蜘蛛？

The book was in fact inspired by reading the scientific papers of people who've been studying this and finding Giant spiders?

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你一开始接触到的这种蜘蛛体型非常小，小到可以放在你的指甲上。

The species of spider you start off with is basically small enough to fish on your thumbnail.

好的。

Okay.

这是一种跳蛛，名叫Portia labiata。

It's a species of jumping spider, Portia labiata.

对于这么小、几乎没有我们所理解的脑结构的生物来说，它简直聪明得不可思议。

It is insanely intelligent for something that is that small and doesn't really have a brain as we would think of it.

哇。

Wow.

我们后来发现，这一点我没有写进书里，因为那是他们写的——我们发现它们会像我们一样做梦。

We have later found, which I didn't get to put into the book because it was written by them, we found that they dream like we dream.

你可以看到它们在睡觉时有类似的眼球运动。

They you can see them having, like, eye movements when they're asleep.

哇。

Wow.

而且，是的，这都是最新研究的结果，但这一切都刚刚开始。

And, yeah, they're just like this had just but this is with all very new research.

我读了这项研究，心想：如果这种特定的蜘蛛完全觉醒，拥有意识，并发展出社会、文明和技术，会怎么样呢？

I read the research and thought, I would like to write the book where the what if is what if this specific species of spider became fully sentient and had a you know, as as and developed a society and a civilization and a technology and all of that sort of thing.

但为了让这个设想达到我想要的效果，它必须尽可能真实。

But the in order for that to land in the way I wanted it to land, it had to be real as possible.

它必须基于科学，不能是那种40英尺长的蜘蛛之类的东西。

It had to be based on the science so that, you know, it's not like a 40 foot spider or anything like that.

这不像《星河战队》里那些巨型昆虫，因为如果你谈论的是一只被提升的地球蜘蛛，那就存在物理限制，你无法真正超越这些限制。

It's not like the thing the giant bugs in Starship Troopers because if you're talking about an Earth spider that has been, this is being uplifted, there are physics limits you can't really go beyond.

但最终的结果是，希望这些蜘蛛能让人觉得，这就是可能发生的事。

But the end the end result is that, hopefully, the spiders come over as this is the thing that could be.

这就是可能真实发生的事，这赋予了这本书一种重量和严肃性，而如果是‘会说话的魔法蜘蛛’，这种重量和严肃性可能就不会存在。我确实写过会说话的魔法蜘蛛，但当我那样做的时候，这并不是我在这本书里想追求的东西。

This is the thing that could be real, and that gives the book a weight and a gravity that it would not necessarily have if it was Magic Talking Spiders, and I have written Magic Talking Spiders, and that, while I'm doing that, that's not what I'm seeking to do in the book.

这本书在这一点上正在做不同的事情。

The book is doing different things at that point.

嗯。

Mhmm.

能给我讲讲奇幻和科幻之间的区别吗？无论是从类型惯例还是从它们所服务的目的来看？

Walk me through some of the differences between fantasy and science fiction, both in terms of the genre conventions and in terms of the purposes that they serve?

很多时候，它们可能并没有服务于不同的目的。

A lot of the time, they may not be serving different purposes.

科幻小说能做的一件事，我认为其他类型都无法做到，就是基于科学进行推演——站在巨人的肩膀上，基于我们已知的知识，提出一个合理的可能性。

So the thing that science fiction can do that I think no other genre does is really just that building on the science, that speculation where you are standing on, you know, the shoulders of giants, I guess, where you're where you're you're building off what we know and saying, well, this is a plausible way this could go.

但我也应该说，就科幻和奇幻而言，它们是一个连续体。

But what I should also say is as far as science fiction and fantasy goes, it is that continuum.

所以你会逐渐远离那种硬科幻的立场。

So you move away from that hard science point.

当我写一本书时，从最初的概念开始，我就能明确它会落在这个连续体的哪个位置。

And, you know, when when I'm writing a book, I will know right at the beginning with the initial concept where along this continuum is going to fall.

在中间地带，也就是那种太空歌剧的领域，我有一系列叫《最终架构》的作品，里面有宇宙飞船和外星人。

So that in the middle there, in that sort of space opera territory, I've got a series called the final architecture, and it's spaceships and it's aliens.

它包含了所有那些科幻元素，因此它毫无疑问是科幻作品。

And it's got all of that science fiction stuff going on, so it's still definitely science fiction.

但与此同时，这些外星人恰好都处于能与人类互动、主要是以人类水平交流的层次，它们能沟通，有翻译设备之类的东西。

But at the same time, there is a lot of you know, the aliens are all coincidentally of a level where they can kind of interact with humans or mostly interact with humans on a human level, and they can communicate, and there are translation devices and things like that.

而如果你看看《毁灭之子》，书中有一半内容都在探讨该如何跟章鱼交流。

Whereas if you look at Children of Ruin, 50% of that book is people working out how the hell you talk to an octopus.

因此，当你着眼于硬科幻时，本质上意味着你接受这部小说中不会出现某些东西。

And so at the point where you're looking at the hard science, it basically means you are accepting I am not going to have certain things in this book.

所以我不会加入时间旅行，因为就我们目前所知，没有任何真正的机制可以回到过去。

So I am not going to have time travel because as far as we are where there's no real mechanic to go back in time.

而你越往那边走，就会被剔除得越多，因为你的左边界占据了越来越多的空间。

And then the more you go towards that, the more you cut out because your left wall is taking up more and more of the space.

而当你远离这一点时，你的叙事就能容纳越来越多的可能性。

Whereas as you go away from that, more and more things become available to your narrative.

我之所以创作《最终架构》系列，设定主角为一名太空军官，就是因为我真的想让角色能够迅速穿越宇宙，跨越巨大的距离；而在《毁灭之子》中，他们从一个行星到另一个行星要花上几个月，因为现实就是如此。

I mean, one of the reasons I did the architect series as a space officer, I just really wanted to be able to get about in the universe very, with enormous distances very quickly because in Children of Ruin, they take months to get between planets within the solar system because that's kind of how it goes.

而当你继续往那边走，最终就会直接进入纯粹的奇幻世界——那里确实存在魔法，而且魔法就是这样运作的。

And then eventually, you end up going straight into, you know, full on fantasy where, yeah, there is magic, and the magic works like this.

这里列出了魔法不能做的事情，以及使用魔法所必须付出的代价，等等。

And here are the things the magic can't do, and here is the price the magic demands for you using it and so forth.

最终，你构建出一个世界，自己确立了左边的边界，这个世界在逻辑性和现实感上，与你的科幻世界一样严谨。

And you end up with a world that effectively, you build your own left wall, and you end up with a world that world that has the same amount of logic and reality to it as your science fiction world.

只不过，这个世界是你亲手构建的，而不是从现实世界中直接移植了大量元素。

It's just that you have built it by hand rather than importing large chunks of it from the real world.

你为什么

Why do you

认为魔法的使用常常要付出代价呢？

think that the use of magic so often does come with a price?

因为这和写反乌托邦比写乌托邦更容易是一个道理。

Because for the same reason it's easier to write dystopias than utopias.

如果魔法没有代价，那为什么到现在还有人有问题呢？

Because if you have magic with no price, then why isn't anyone got a problem at this point?

为什么每个人不都用魔法来做一切呢？

Why isn't everyone just doing everything by magic?

我的意思是，坦白说，从叙事角度来讲，我觉得这样更令人满足。

I mean, also, frankly, know, just narratively, I think it may is much more satisfying.

我们喜欢那种邪恶的魔法，它们向使用者索取可怕的代价，无论使用者是我们英雄还是反派。

We like the idea of kind of wicked magics that exact terrible prices from their their users, whether those users are our heroes or our villains.

这仅仅是因为，相比那种基本上可以做任何事的叙事，它提供了更多的叙事空间。

It's just it gives you more narrative space than if I mean, when you have a narrative where basically you can do anything, there is a story there.

我的意思是，迈克尔·沃夸尔写过一系列叫《时间尽头的舞蹈》的作品，故事设定在极其遥远的未来。

I mean, Michael Warquhar wrote a series called The Dance at the End of Time, which is set in such a far future.

当时只剩下大约七个人，他们本质上都是神，可以随心所欲地创造任何东西。

There are basically about seven people left, and they're all essentially gods, and they can just make things at a whim.

这个系列的核心就在于，他们因为魔法毫无代价而感到极度无聊。

And the whole point of that series is they are so bored because magic has no price.

整个故事就是试图找到某种方法来摆脱这种因拥有绝对一切而产生的巨大倦怠感。

The whole thing is then trying to find some way to obviate this incredible ennui of just having absolutely everything in

这个世界。

the world.

你刚才在说左边的墙。

You were talking about the left wall.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你还在说那个最大的谎言。

And you were talking about the one big lie.

嗯。

Yeah.

在写作方面，还有其他你经常依赖的格言吗？

Are there other maxims that you think about in terms of writing that you lean on a lot?

我的意思是，没几个。

I mean, not many.

我发现，关于写作的格言通常很少是正确的。

I mean, one of the things I tend to find out find about writing maxims is that they are very seldom true.

每当我遇到某种教条式的写作观点，比如‘你总是应该这样做’或‘你永远不应该这样做’，我总能想到一些反例，说明其实不该这么做，或者其实你确实想那样做。

Whenever I run into a sort of a dogmatic writing take, whether it is, well, you should always do this or you should never do this, I can always think of a certain term to actually don't do it like this or actually, you do want to do it like that.

你知道吗？

You know?

问题是，这一切归根结底都是陈规旧习，很多时候在人们写作生涯初期就被当作‘十诫’一样传下来。

I mean, the problem is it all kind of comes down to received wisdom, and it tends to get given handed down to people at the start of their writing career as the 10 commandments a lot of the time.

对。

Right.

我觉得这非常不负责任。

I think that is very irresponsible.

对。

Right.

这可不是摩西在跟上帝说话。

This isn't Moses talking to God.

这只是一些人行之有效的方法。

This is something that's worked for people.

我认为人们最需要了解的一点是，每个作家的写作方式都不同。

I think that the most important thing that people need to know about writing is every writer does it differently.

我的意思是，我认识很多作家。

I mean, I know a lot of writers.

我参加过很多小组讨论，我们都谈过自己的写作过程。

I've been on lots of panels where we've all talked about our writing process.

每一位作家的做法都跟我个人认为完全不可想象的方式不同。

Every single writer does something that I personally find absolutely unthinkable.

而且，我的意思是，当我谈到，哦，是的。

And, I mean, when I, yeah, when I talk about oh, yeah.

我从不，从不，从不提前决定结局。

I never I never never decide on the ending.

你应该看看其他作家听到我说这些时的表情，因为对他们来说，唯一确定的就是我知道故事怎么开始、怎么结束，而中间只是一段长长的、可能通向任何地方的绳子。

And you should see the looks you get from some other writers because to them, oh, that's the only thing I know is I always know how it's gonna end and how it's gonna start, and you just have this long piece of string in the middle, and that might go anywhere.

没有唯一正确的方式，但最终，你总会汇聚成一本完整的书。

There's no one way of doing this, and at the end of it, you always converge on having a book.

你知道，任何说‘你应该多展示，少叙述’的人。

You know, anyone who says, well, you should always show rather than tell.

而且，你知道，叙述过多也是完全可以的。

And, you know, you can absolutely tell too much.

这很容易做到。

It's very easy to do so.

我肯定自己偶尔也会这样，但另一方面，我最成功的作品《时间的孩子》基本上60%都是说明性文字，因为有时候，叙述才是最好的方式。

I'm sure I do so on occasion, but on the other hand, my most successful book is Children of Time, and that is basically 60% exposition by volume because sometimes value is the best way of doing something.

我认为某些写作传统根深蒂固，人们认为它们不可避免，这反而可能带来负面影响。

And I think there are certain writing traditions which I think are so entrenched, and people assume they are so unavoidable that it's it can be actively harmful.

我不喜欢‘英雄之旅’这个概念。

I mean, I do not like the idea of the hero's journey.

它非常非常普遍。

It is very, very prevalent.

有些人会坚持说，每个故事都必须符合‘英雄之旅’的模式。

There are people who will basically say, well, every every story has got to conform to The Hero's Journey.

我曾听到有人问我：你为什么不喜欢它？

And I've I've heard people be, why don't you like it?

因为它只是众多结构中的一种。

Because it's just one one structure.

说所有故事都必须遵循这种模式，这种想法是不对的。

The idea of saying, well, all this is the story that all stories must follow.

如果你听那些谈论‘英雄之旅’以及某本书如何符合这一模式的人，你总会到达这样一个地步：好吧，显然这是我们的‘下到冥府’阶段，你可能会想，其实根本不是这么回事。

I mean, I I if you listen to people who are talking about the hero's journey and how this book or that book conforms to the hero's journey, you will always get to this point where I mean, obviously and I guess this is kind of our descent into the underworld, and you can just kinda think, well, I mean, it isn't.

这并不是说，因为你认为在英雄之旅的这个阶段必须有一个进入地下的过程，所以你就把它硬套进去，但书里实际上并不是这么回事。

It's not you know, you're making it that because you know that there's got to be a descent into the underworld at this point of the hero's journey, but that's not actually what's going on in the book.

对。

Right.

因为一旦你把某样东西简化到这种地步，你就会得到一个完全无用的模型。

Because once you are reducing something that far, then you're left with a model that is completely worthless.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，这就像试图以任何方式模拟现实一样。

I mean, honestly, it it is like modeling reality in any way.

为了获得一个可以用于统计检验、并从中得出有价值数据的真实事物模型，你必须将现实简化到数据本身变得毫无意义的程度。

In order to get a model of something real that you can run through your statistical tests and get sort of valuable data out of, you have to simplify reality to the point that the data you're getting is actually useless.

当你试图将写作简化为‘这些就是写书的方式’时，就完全是这种思路。

And it's very much that idea when you're trying to reduce writing to, well, these are the ways you write a book.

所以当我提到‘左边的墙’，比如，或者池中的石头之类的东西时。

So when I'm talking about the left wall, for example, it's or talking about the stone in the pool and that kind of thing.

这其实远不止于，这是我能想到的描述一个相当模糊事物的最简单方式。

It's really more than just like that is the easiest way I can think of to describe a fairly nebulous thing.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

你所说的，是要以轻松的态度对待各种模型和准则。

What you're saying is to hold models and maxims with a light grip.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

关键是，任何一条建议只要不变成铁律，就是有用的。

And the thing is it's one of those any piece of advice is useful so long as it doesn't basically become this is the law.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为总会有某种情况是不成立的。

Because there's always gonna be a situation where it's not true.

当然。

Sure.

包括这条建议在内，我相信也是如此。

Including that piece of advice, I'm sure.

什么才构成一场精彩的打斗场景？

What makes for a good fight scene?

哦，打斗场景是一种东西。

Oh, well, fight scenes are a thing.

那么，我做过些什么呢？

So I have what have I done?

我进行了好几年的舞台格斗训练，还做了十多年的真实角色扮演。

I I did several years of stage fighting, and I did well over a decade of live action role play.

我还在利兹军械库进行了三到四年的历史长剑训练。

And I did three or four years of historical broad tour training at the Leeds Armories.

所以你对这个问题想了很多。

So you've thought a lot about this.

嗯，我的意思是，如果你写的是史诗奇幻，那就会有很多打斗场面。

Well, well, the thing I mean, thing is if you're writing epic fantasy, that's a lot of fights.

是的。

Yeah.

另一点是，你写的是奇幻作品，同时也面向许多曾经从事过其中一项或多项活动的人。

The other thing is you're writing fantasy, you're also writing for a lot of people who have done one or more of those things.

你实际上是在为一群相当有见识的读者写作，他们知道剑的哪一端该捅进人身体里。

You are writing essentially for a fairly educated audience who know what end of a sword to stick into people.

所以当你写到这样的场景时：是的，你的剑断了，但你仍然可以用那锯齿状的断口刺穿敌人的胸甲，而你听到的，将是相当一部分读者因为知道这不符合现实，而把书扔到房间另一头的声音。

So when you write the scene where, yes, your sword has been broken, but you can still stab your enemy through with the jagged edge that goes through their breastplate and you you the what you hear then is the sound of a small but significant group of your readers throwing the book across the room because they know it doesn't work like that.

他们知道穿盔甲的全部意义就在于，你不可能用一把断剑直接刺穿它。

They know the whole point of wearing armor is you can't just stab a broken sword through it.

对。

Right.

但一旦你做了一些研究，比如进行过一些欧洲历史武术训练，你就会知道，应该刺向胸甲未覆盖的腋下部位，这正是因为你需要手臂的灵活性。

Whereas once you've done a bit of the research, once you've done a bit of, you know, historical European martial arts training and that kind of thing, you know, you stab them in the armpit where the breastplate doesn't go, and that is exactly because you need the mobility of your arm.

你无法在腋下部位防御被刺穿。

You cannot arm at the armpit against being stabbed through.

这时，那部分读者就会说：没错。

And at that point, that little section of your readers are going, yes.

完全正确，他们不会把书扔到房间另一头。

That's absolutely correct, and they do not throw the book across the room.

要写出真正出色、引人入胜的打斗场景，你需要具备一种视角感和节奏感。

In order to write really good, engrossing fight scenes, you hate to have a sense of perspective and flow.

比如，有一位出色的作家，乔·阿伯克龙比。

I mean, one there's a fancy writer, Joe Abercrombie K.

举个例子。

For example.

他写的打斗场景非常精彩。

He writes incredible fight scenes.

他写了一本叫《英雄》的书。

He wrote a book called The Heroes.

《英雄》中有一场规模庞大的战斗，你几乎是从某人的面甲缝隙中看到这一切，眼前是混乱不堪、人潮汹涌、彼此冲撞的场面，突然间你开始与一人搏斗，接着场景一转，你又开始与另一人交战。

There is a very large battle in The Heroes, which you are basically seeing through the slot in someone's visor so that just it is this enormous panicky cacophony of people charging about and barging into each other, and then suddenly you're fighting someone, and then everything shifts, you're fighting someone else.

你不知道那个人后来怎么样了。

You don't know what happened to the person.

你只是突然间就这样了，这是一种讲述战斗场景的绝佳方式。

You were just and that is that's a really good way of telling a fight scene.

这其中的很多内容与你如何使用剑其实关系不大，只要你不是做出什么荒谬可笑的动作就行，关键在于身处战斗中的真实感受。

And a lot of that is that's nothing to do particularly with what what you do with a sword as long as you're not doing something patiently ridiculous with it, but it's to do with how it feels to be in a fight.

同时，你可能也希望展现一些宏观视角，比如将军在远处观察战场，你看到左翼在这样做，右翼在那样行动，攻城器械正在执行某项任务，拥有这种全局感。

And at the same time, you also may want to tell a bit where, right, you've got the general and they're looking across the thing and you're seeing, like, yeah, your left is doing this, and your right wing is doing that, and your siege artillery is doing this thing and having that kind of sense.

所以，你需要将这些不同的视角和技巧融合在一起。

So it's getting all of these different meshing tool kits together.

当然，也有大规模的战斗场景，这属于战斗写作的一种类型。

And, you know, there are there are big battle scenes, and that's one type of writing a fight.

还有一些小规模冲突，可能只有十几个人互相砍杀，这是一种非常复杂的战斗描写方式，因为战斗非常灵活，人们经常互相交换对手。

There are skirmishes where you might have, like, a dozen people just sort of hacking away at each other, and that is another really quite complex way of having a fight because it's very mobile, and you tend to have a lot of people trading off opponents.

有时候，我会直接在纸上标出：这个人往这边走，那个人往那边走，把整个复杂的场景完全规划出来。

And sometimes I've got to the point of literally just marking out, right, this person's going over here, and this person's going over here, and, you know, just having this whole complex scene literally planned out.

我想我是用我儿子的小玩具昆虫来模拟，只是为了理清其中的战术安排。

I think it was with, like, little toy insects that my son had just to just to work out the logistics of it.

然后你还会遇到像这样的情况：如果你

And then you have things like if you

进行一场决斗。

have a duel.

等等。

Wait.

你是在玩昆虫，试图说明，

That's you playing with insects, trying to say,

你就要大吃一顿了。

you're gonna go pig out.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，这画面真有趣。

Oh, that's a funny image.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你还会遇到决斗，那时你可能会更加关注战斗中的精确技巧，因为此时只有两个人对决，而战斗的技巧将成为场景的叙事核心。

And then you have a duel where you're probably going to be a lot more into the precise techniques that are going into a fight because it is just the two people at that point, and it is the technique of the fight that is going to be the narrative of the scene.

接着你会开始思考，战斗的叙事本身也是展现参与战斗角色性格的机会。

And then you start to work out, well, it's you know, the narrative of the fight is also an opportunity for you to express the characters who are involved in the fight.

例如，在我的《暗影之适》系列中有一场战斗，对手技术相当生疏，而你则远比他高明，但你实际上非常欣赏他，并不想杀他。

So for example, there's a a fight in one of my Shadows of the Apt books where you got a fairly unskilled opponent, and you're someone who was a lot better than him, but who is actually also quite fond of him and doesn't want to kill him.

所以在结尾处，你会看到那位技术高超的对手有机会结束战斗却选择了放弃，结果反而因为未能抓住这个机会而被杀。

And so you get the bit at the end where you you see where the more skilled opponent had their opportunity to finish the fight and doesn't, and then they get killed because they have failed to take that opportunity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这是角色发展。

But that's character development.

这是让战斗本身讲述故事，而不是仅仅说‘哦，是的’。

That is that is letting your the fight tell the story rather than just being, oh, yeah.

他打了他一下，然后又打了一下，他们就那样打斗着过去了。

He hit him, and then he hit him, and they clothe through there.

你知道，当你写过一定数量的战斗场景后，你会发现战斗场景其实也是推动叙事的一种手段。

You know, you you you learn after you've done a after you've got a certain way into writing fight that actually a fight scene is also a vehicle for advancing the narrative.

你之前提到，故事是让世界展现和展开的机会。

Well, you were talking earlier about how the story is an opportunity for the world to reveal itself and to unfold.

是的。

Yeah.

战斗场景如何展现和展开你所构建的世界呢？

How would a fight scene reveal and unfold the world that you're building?

所以

So

你是通过角色来实现的，就像我说的，但如果你在写奇幻或科幻作品，也可以用这种方式巧妙地展示一些有趣的设定元素。

you do it through character, like I say, but also I mean, if you're doing fantasy or science fiction, you can also use that as a very sneaky way of showcasing fun world parts.

对。

Right.

因为你可以展示武器和

Because you could show weapons and

是的。

Yeah.

比如在《原力回声》系列中，每个人都是变形者。

Or, for example, in in the Echoes of the Force series, everyone is a shape changer.

每个人都有一个动物形态，可以瞬间在人形和动物形态之间切换。

Everyone has an animal form, and you can transfer from human to animal like that.

这就导致了许多极其复杂的打斗场景，人们在狼、熊、蛇等动物形态之间不断转换，只为了在战斗中获得优势，这在构思上非常困难，但希望读者读起来会很享受。

So that led to a lot of extraordinarily complicated fight scenes where people are turning in and out of wolves and bears and snakes and things like that just moment to moment because of the advantage it's giving them in the fight, which was really hard to think through, but hopefully is enjoyable to read.

这个画面真有趣。

That's a funny image.

其中一个

One of

关于写作战斗，我还没提到的最重要的一点是：

the most important things I haven't said about writing fighting is this.

一旦你通过各种方式学到了所有这些关于战斗的巧妙技巧，你就需要学会尽可能少地把这些内容写在纸上。

Once you have learned all these clever things from whatever means you're using to learn about fights is you need to learn how to put as little of that as possible on the page.

因为，就像你对任何事情做了研究后一样，你很容易忍不住要把所有东西都倒出来，好展示你做了多么深入的研究。

Because the temptation, as with anything you've done the research on, is I am just gonna vomit all this stuff on this beta show how incredibly intensive my research has been.

但这样一来，节奏就全毁了。

And at that point, pacing goes out of the window.

没人想读一本击剑手册，但一旦你掌握了这些知识，它就会渗透到你所保留的细节中。

And you have this you know, nobody wants to read a fencing manual at that But once you know that stuff, it will inform the details you do put in.

所以，它真的会体现出来。

So and it will it will genuinely show through.

这适用于任何类型的研究：即使你将内容精简到仅剩几个词，但你能看出这些词源于你的研究，正是这些词会让一切显得真实。

And this is the same with any kind of research is once even though you're pairing it down to just maybe a handful of words where you can see that those arose from what you have learned, those are the words that will make it real.

嗯。

Mhmm.

进入角色的内心，就像我说的，即使你没有这么做，仅仅通过这种受限的视角，让战斗的叙述更多地通过情感而非步法或精确的剑术来呈现。

Getting into the head of the characters, like I'm saying, even if you're not doing that, just that very restricted viewpoint, having the narrative of the fight told as much through the emotions as through the footwork or the precise blade work.

给我解释一下。

Explain that for me.

通过情感来讲述，而不是通过

Talking through the emotions rather than the

对。

Yeah.

因为，我的意思是，说来奇怪，这一点是我从现场角色扮演中得到的。

Because, I mean, the thing mean, the so weirdly enough, this is something I got from live role playing.

好的。

Okay.

当你说到现场角色扮演时，

When you say live role playing,

你是说真的和别人亲自表演吗？

do you mean actually acting in person with other people?

拿着橡胶剑，打扮成野蛮人，到处冲杀。

Rubber sword, dress up as a barbarian, charge about.

所以这就像即兴的打斗吗？

So it's like improv for fights?

是的。

Yes.

而且，你知道，你是在扮演一个角色。

And, you know, you're playing a character.

有一种世界正在运转的感觉。

There is a a certain sense of a world going on.

在这种情况下，因为我们称之为节日型实境角色扮演，战场上有时会有一千人，你站在战线的第二排，手里握着你的长矛之类的，一群人尖叫着从山坡上向你冲来，你能感受到这一切。

And in this case, because it's what we call Fest based LARP, it's full on a thousand people on the battlefield, sometimes, and you're there standing with your kind of your spear or whatever in the second rank of your battle line, and a bunch of people are screaming at the top of their lungs, charging down a hill at you, and you feel it.

你能感受到这里的情绪，正是从这种经历中，我获得了将这种感觉写入文字的灵感：这不仅仅是说，这些人站在这里，这是战术，这是战略，这是战场上正在发生的事情。

You feel it here, and that's what I gained from that sort of that laughing experience to put on the page is this is not just the fact that, yes, these are standing here, and this is the tactical this and the and the kind of the strategic that of what is going on in the battlefield.

这就像是亲身经历战斗的感觉，而这种体验在当今的日常生活中并不常被传授。

It's just like this is what it feels like to be in a fight, and that's not a thing that regular life these days tends to teach you particularly.

但因为你身临其境，你内心的一部分还是会像面对真实情况一样做出反应，尽管这显然只是一种纯粹的虚构消遣。

But because you're there, there is a part of you that reacts as if it's real even though it's, you know, it's obviously it's it's it's purely a a fictional pastime.

这种感受正是你可以写进书里的东西。

And that sense is what you can put on the page.

作为作家，当你着手写一本新书时，据我理解，你总是在尝试一些新的东西，以避免陷入写作的惯性。

Now for you as the writer, whenever you're working a new book, you're trying to do something new as I understand it, to avoid writing ruts.

是的。

Yes.

那么，当你思考如何做到这一点时，什么是最重要的？

So as you think about doing that, what's important?

通常我会有一两件想尝试的新事情。

So there there will be usually one or two things I want to do.

不一样的方式？

Differently?

是的。

Yes.

特别是对于任何新项目，我都会想探索某个特定的想法，或者尝试营造某种特定的情感冲击时刻。

In in particular, with any with any new project, there will be a particular idea I want to explore, or there will be a particular moment of emotional impact I want to try and generate even.

我会，我的意思是，举个例子，有一件事我至今还没能做到，但 definitely 在我的清单上，那就是读过几本书，它们让我产生了强烈的神圣感。

There will be so, I mean, and, you know, to give one example of a thing I have not yet been able to do and is definitely on my list to have a crack at, there are a couple of books I have read which have inspired me this incredible sense of the numinous.

神圣感？

The numinous?

是的。

Yes.

那种对一个就在视线之外、却真实存在的世界的敬畏感，是的。

Of this kind of just the awe of there being just a world that is just out of sight Yes.

但它非常、非常真实。

But is very, very real.

你会感受到，比如罗伯特·霍尔德斯托克的《神话》、雨果·伍德的作品是一例，苏珊娜·克拉克的《帕纳塞斯》是另一例，这两本书我都非常喜欢。

And you you get I mean, so Robert Holdstock's myth, Hugo Wood, is one, and Susanna Clarke's, Piranesi is another, both of which are books I absolutely love.

在某个时候，我想写一本能激发类似感受的书。

And at some point, I want to write a book that inspires a similar kind of sense.

这将完全按照我的方式来创作，取材于我感兴趣的主题，因此它将是一片全新的领域。

And it will be very much on my own terms and drawn from the sort of things that interest me, so it will be that new terrain.

但我真的很希望能让读者感受到那种另一个世界的存在感。

But I would really like to be able to leave readers with that sense of a of that sort of other world.

正如我所说，我还没有做到这一点。

And like I say, I haven't yet done that.

我有一本书即将出版，但目前还不能说它的书名，因为书名还在变动——毕竟，我从来都定不好书名。

I've got a book coming out, the title of which I can't say because it's currently in flux because titles are a thing I can't do.

我提交的三个书名里，通常只能保留一个。

I get to keep about one title out of three of my of what I submit.

但我很想尝试一下，能不能写一本同时兼具哥特式恐怖和探讨克隆、后科技社会等主题的书？

But it's I wanted to see, can I do a book that is simultaneously gothic horror and also, is exploring things like clones and post tech society?

我经常写后科技社会相关的内容。

I do a lot of post tech society stuff.

不知为何，这个想法让我着迷不已，我一直在想：为什么？

For some reason, that's an idea that absolutely fascinates me, and I keep coming Why?

回到我想，这

Back to I think it

是，没错。

is Yeah.

后技术社会的魅力究竟在哪里？

What is it about the post tech society?

没错。

Yeah.

这非常富有感染力。

It's something it's very evocative.

我认为，这和为什么许多电子游戏的设定都基于废墟世界是一样的原因，但这并不是反乌托邦的主题。

It's I think it's the same thing that is the explanation of why so many computer game settings are based around ruined worlds, and it's not a dystopia thing.

这是一种观念：当你的故事发生在一片已被彻底遗忘的过去废墟中时，会有一种悲剧感与宏伟感。你知道，角色们身处其中，周围全是过去可能发生过什么的痕迹，但他们的社会已经发展到一个阶段——他们并不知道自己从何而来，也不知道如何完成前人曾做到的事情。

It's this idea that there is a certain tragedy and grandeur to your story playing out in the wreckage of a past that has mostly been completely forgotten so that the characters you know, they are there with all of these indicators of what might have been going on in the past, but they've all you know, their own society has got to the point where they don't know necessarily where they came from, and they don't know how to do the things that people previously did.

你会得到这种三方知识结构。

You get this three sided knowledge, structure.

那是什么？

What's that?

所以，有作者知道的内容，有书中角色知道的内容，还有读者知道的内容。

So there's what you as the author know, and there is what the characters in the book know, and there is what the reader knows.

而且这其中有很多种不同的运用方式。

And there are many there are all sorts of different ways you can play with this.

例如，你可以设置一种情况：你的角色掌握了很多信息却故意不说，尤其是在不可靠叙述者的情况下，嗯。

So for example, you can have a situation where your character has a whole lot of stuff that they know that they're not saying so that when this is especially the case with, like, unreliable narrator Mhmm.

在第一人称视角的故事中，读者通常会默认：既然叙述者在讲述发生的事，那这些事就是真实发生的，但事实当然不必如此，因为如果叙述者在讲述故事，他们很可能有隐藏的动机和目的。

Stories where you're telling it from a first person point of view, and that character there is sort of a compact that readers tend to assume, well, if you've a narrator and he's telling you what happened, then that is what happened, and it doesn't have to be that way, of course, because if your narrator is telling the story, they probably have an ulterior motive and they have an agenda.

然后你会在书中的某个时刻发现，读者意识到自己并没有得到完整的故事。

And then you'll get to a bit in the book where the reader realizes that they've not been given the full story.

我的《最后的机会之城》里就用了这种手法。

I mean, this is something I do in City of Last Chances.

这基本上就像《马耳他之鹰》那样，有一个特定的物品失踪了，而一组角色中的某个人拥有它。

There is basically a kind of a Maltese Falcon thing going on where there is a particular item and it's gone missing, and one of a set of characters has it.

你能看到这些角色大部分人的内心想法。

And you get to see inside the head of most of those characters.

但任何时候，他们都没有承认自己拥有它。

And at no time do any of them admit to having it.

这听起来像什么桌游？

That sounds like what's that board game?

秘密希特勒。

A secret Hitler.

没错，听起来就是这样。

That's what that sounds.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, it is yeah.

意思是，这有点像隐藏身份，是一种非常隐蔽的、类似滚动骰子的东西。

Mean, it is kind of a hidden it's sort of a hidden rolly a really rolly sort of thing.

而这一点因为这本书是我没有计划写的，我也不知道谁拥有它，变得更加复杂了。

And that was that was complicated by the fact that because this is the book I didn't plan, I didn't know who had it.

所以我不得不从完全中立的角度来塑造所有这些角色，不确定他们是否真的拥有那件东西。

So I had to write all of these characters from an entirely agnostic position of whether they might or might not have had the thing.

到了书的结尾，情况突然明朗了：哦，这个角色一定拥有它。

And then towards the end of the book, it just became obvious, oh, this character has to have it.

这就是他们对它的所作所为，为什么这么做，以及何时会揭示出他们其实一直拥有它。

And this is what they've done with it, and this is why, and this is when it's going to be revealed that they've had it all along.

但信息三角形还有另一种走向，那就是当你——作者——和读者共享了角色们并不知道的信息时。

But there is also the other way that triangle of information can go is that when you, the author, and the reader are sharing knowledge that the characters don't have.

哦。

Oh.

这种情形在后技术题材中非常常见。

And that is a very much a thing you tend to get with post tech.

比如，在我的专家系统中篇小说中，故事发生在一个系外行星上。

So for example, in, my expert systems novellas, it's an exoplanet.

有一艘殖民飞船曾抵达那里，但生活在星球上的人对此毫无记忆。

There was a colony ship that went there, but the people who live on the planet have no memory of this whatsoever.

他们以一种非常奇特的封闭方式生活着，也因此完全遗忘了自己来自何处。

They are living in a very weird sort of sheltered way, but as part of that, they have lost all track of where they came from.

他们只是觉得，这就是我们的世界，我们住在这里，一直如此。

It's just like, well, this is our world, and we live here, and we've kinda always have.

但是

But

而你，作为读者，当然对正在发生的事情有更广阔的了解。

you, as the reader, of course, have a much broader understanding of what's going on.

当主角探索这个世界时，他并不太理解自己发现的许多事物，但读者却能捕捉到线索，比角色的理解稍微领先一步。

And as the main character explores the world, he doesn't particularly understand a lot of the things he finds, but the reader can pick up the clues and stay a step a bit a step ahead of what the character understands.

有些时候，这可能会带来深刻的创伤。

And some I mean, and sometimes this can be profoundly traumatic.

在《战犬》中，主角是雷克斯。

So there's in dogs of war, the main character is, Rex.

他是一只经过生物工程改造的狗，被用作军事工具，故事由他本人的视角讲述。

He is a bioengineered dog who is being used as a military asset, and he's telling the story from his own point of view.

一开始，雷克斯是一只好狗，因为他服从命令，而这就是衡量一只好狗的标准。

And at the beginning, Rex is a good dog because he's doing what he's told, and that's the the measure of being a good dog.

读者很快就会意识到，雷克斯所做的事情其实是战争罪行。

And it becomes readily apparent to the readers that what Rex is doing is war crimes.

战争罪行？

War crimes?

是的。

Yeah.

他正在屠杀平民，甚至包括儿童，因为他提到有大敌人和小敌人之类的东西。

He's absolutely killing civilians, and indeed children because he's talking about there are big big big enemies and small enemies and things like that.

但雷克斯对此一无所知，因为他缺乏相关的背景信息。

But Rex has no understanding of that because he doesn't have the context.

因此，作为读者，你可能会紧张得咬指甲，觉得这一切实在太可怕了，而雷克斯却是个亲切可爱的角色，只是单纯地认为自己在做一只好狗。

And so you as the reader are potentially just kind of chewing your fingernails off saying this is this is this is really, really terrible, and Rex is such this kind of amiable, likable character who just thinks he's being a good dog.

后来，当然，雷克斯会逐渐明白，当他走出世界，他会开始理解更多，并形成自己对是非的判断，而不再只是听从主人的指令。

And then later on, of course, Rex will catch up and under and as he goes out into the world, he understands more and gets starts making his own value judgments about what is right and wrong that isn't just my master has told me to do this thing.

但在这些早期章节中，作为读者的你，即使基于雷克斯自己的叙述，也拥有他所不具备的大量视角和知识。

But in those early sections, you as the reader have a lot of perspective and knowledge even based on Rex's own account that Rex doesn't have.

因此，你面临一种张力：作者知道什么，读者知道什么，而角色又知道什么。

And so you have this tension between what the author author knows, what the reader knows, what the character knows.

是的。

Yeah.

当你构思这些故事时，你的梦境是否有用？

As you're thinking up these stories, is there a utility to your dreams?

你知道，就连萨尔瓦多·达利这样的画家，也会在睡觉时手里拿着苹果，然后在无意识中醒来。

And, you know, there's so many even Salvador Dali as a painter, you know, he would kind of fall asleep with the apple and then wake up with the unconscious.

你觉得创作故事和构建异世界对你来说，是一种有意识、刻意且有趣的过程，还是你触及了某种更潜意识的、甚至可以说是神秘的方式？

Do you feel like coming up with stories and alternate worlds is a conscious, deliberate, fun process for you, or are you tapped into sort of more subconscious, dare I say mystical ways of coming up with stories?

我的意思是，我并不太倾向于神秘主义，但我认为潜意识，是的。

I mean, I don't tend I I don't tend to do mystical per se, but I think subconscious, yes.

我认为，理想情况下，作为作家，你的潜意识和意识应该协同工作，相互支持。

I think that the ideally, as a writer, your subconscious and your conscious are working in lockstep and supporting one another.

体现在哪些方面？

In what way?

所以，例如，当我有意识地构建世界框架时，我们会设定这个、那个，以及这些如何导致那些结果。

So that, for example, when I am consciously working out the framework of the world and full of it, we'll have this and we'll have that and that leads to that.

与此同时，我在地图上标出的这些点之间的所有空白，都会由我的潜意识填补，因为潜意识会比我有意识地意识到更早地理解事物之间的联系，而这些联系会自然而然地在写作中浮现出来。

At the same time, all of the gaps between those points I'm putting on the map are being filled up by my subconscious because the subconscious will understand connections between things before I'm consciously aware of them, and then that is what will come out spontaneously in the writing.

故事的灵感就来源于此。

That's where it's that's where it's coming from.

事实上，到了这个时候，你几乎是在与自己合作写作，你会学会将某些部分委托给潜意识，因为当你反复实践足够多之后，你会相信，当你需要时，潜意识一定会提供出色的成果。

And, really, it it's it's kinda you're almost writing in partnership with yourself at that point, and you you learn to delegate certain parts to your subconscious because once you've done it enough, you have faith that your subconscious will come through with the goods when you need it to.

你觉得你是如何提升写作技艺的？

How do you feel like you go about improving at the craft?

有多少是通过阅读大师作品、研究他们来实现的？

How much of it is reading the greats, studying them?

其中有多少是通过编辑和其他人的反馈与建设性批评获得的呢？

How much of it is maybe now actually getting feedback from editors and constructive criticism from other people?

又有多少是纯粹靠写作呢？

How much of it is just sheer writing?

你具体怎么做，才能说：好吧。

What is it that you do to say, okay.

我现在就在这里。

I'm here now.

十年后，我会变得更好。

In ten years, I'm gonna be better.

你打算如何走这条提升之路？

What are you gonna do to walk that path of improvement?

我的意思是，有些事情我们可能会讨论，比如神圣感的气味。

I mean, are some things where I mean, we'll be talking about, like, the the the scent of the numinous.

有些事情我确实希望有朝一日能写一本这样的书。

There are some things that are definitely, I would like to write a book at some point that that does this.

但那是一个目标，我知道自己还没有达到。

But that's a goal, and I'm aware I am not there yet.

比如在《最后机会之城》之前，我就说过，我想写一本以这些角色的生活交织成拼贴故事的书，这之前我从未尝试过。

And so and for example, with the City of Last Chances, there was before then, I said, I would like to write a book where it is a mosaic story with the lives of all of these characters kind of interweaving, which is was not something I'd done before.

所以，这本书就是我实现这一点的作品。

And so, like, that's the book where I do that.

因此，其中一部分就是设定这些明确的目标。

And so it's some of it is having those quite definite goals.

在某种程度上，你知道，你会意识到自己尚未涉足的领域，感觉那里仍有可以开拓的空间。

To a certain extent, you know, you're aware of areas you've not gone where you feel there is still territory that one can move out into.

其他作家或许已经开辟了道路，但未必去过你打算去的那些特定地方。

Other, you know, other writers have maybe paved the way for, but haven't necessarily gone to those particular places you're going to go.

其中一些无疑会来自阅读，比如。

And some of that is certainly gonna come out of reading, for example.

我的意思是，我不确定是否一定要阅读那些经典大师的作品。

I mean, I don't know about reading the greats per se.

我总是觉得，阅读同辈作家——那些正在写作的人——更有用。

I always find it more useful to read my my peers, the people who are writing now.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

因为他们已经受到了那些作品的影响。

Because they're already informed by those.

是的。

Yeah.

我们所有人都已经受到了以往丰富写作成果的影响。

We're all already informed by this great melange of previous writing that's gone on.

我们一直在前人的基础上继续建设。

We have been building on things.

这就是我们的工作方式。

That's how we work.

是的。

Yeah.

我们建立在过往作品之上，也建立在过往作品之上。

We build on past work, and we build on past work.

因此，阅读更近期的作品，老实说，我认为目前我们正处在一个非常有趣的科幻黄金时代，相比之下，我更喜欢读现在的作品，而不是回头去读六十年代的东西。

And therefore, reading more recent stuff, and, honestly, I think we are in a bit of a golden age of really interesting science fiction at the moment, is I find that more interesting than going back to read something from the sixties.

对。

Right.

所以，在我们即将结束时，我想知道你是如何思考让读者与角色的情感产生联系，从而带领他们贯穿整个故事的？

So as we begin to close, I'm curious about how you think through connecting the readers with the emotions of the characters so that you can bring them along through the story.

我认为这很难简单概括，我觉得这正是潜意识真正发挥作用的地方，因为潜意识是我们与自身情感产生连接的地方。

I think I mean, it's a hard thing to to boil down, and I think this is where the subconscious really comes in because the subconscious is kind of where we connect with our own emotions.

我常常希望读者能体验到某些特定的情感节点，但问题是，你不可能让每个读者都有相同的感受，因为每个人的反应都不同。

I often know particular emotional beats I would like my readers to experience, and the thing is you're never gonna get that from every reader because everyone is responding differently.

但当然。

But Sure.

你撒下一张网，希望大多数读者能感受到你希望他们感受到的那些情感范围之内。

You you cast a net, and hopefully, like, the majority of your readers will feel somewhere within the general territory of what you want them to feel.

所以，例如，当你描绘守卫街垒、士兵逼近时的绝望抵抗，你希望读者感受到希望、悲剧与绝望；当你在最后一刻出现转机、一切似乎已无望时，你希望他们随之振奋。

So that, for example, when you've got, you know, the doomed defense of the barricades when the soldiers are moving in, You want them to feel the, you know, the hope and the tragedy and the despair, and you want them to have you know, when you have that last minute intervention, just when everything is lost, you want them to soar with it.

很多时候，我这样做是为了希望将读者与角色自身的情感生活联系起来。

And a lot of the time, I'm doing this because I'm hopefully connecting them to the emotional life of the characters themselves.

这常常是我之前谈到的面具与滤镜的概念——每个角色都戴着面具，他们的情感就是那种滤镜。

And this is a this is often a lot when I was talking about with the the idea of you have the mask on and the filter, each character has a mask, and each character's emotions are that filter.

这可能也是我从很久以前的桌面角色扮演游戏带入的观念：你要代入角色。

And this is probably another thing I'm bringing in from way sort of table to table top role playing games way back, but the idea is you inhabit the character.

即使只是一个微小的角色，对他们自己而言，他们也是真实存在的。

Even if it's a tiny character at the time, they are very real to themselves.

他们有自己的渴望。

They have things that they want.

他们有自己的恐惧。

They have things that they are scared of.

他们对所发生事情的反应，无论他们是配角还是主角，都同样真实。

They have reactions to what is going on that are no less real just because they are a bit part or whether they're a main main player in the book.

我认为，让角色真实地对待自己、忠于自己，可能是让观众与他们产生共鸣的一种方式。

And I think having the characters be real to themselves and true to themselves is probably one of the ways you then get the audience to feel along with them.

嗯，我

Well, I

一个好的结尾问题可能是：什么才是一个好的结局？

guess a good ending question is what makes for a good ending?

毫无疑问。

Absolutely no no bones about it.

结局是书中最重要的部分。

The ending is the most important part of a book.

最重要的部分？

The most important part?

当然。

Definitely.

因为读者最后记住的就是结局，如果结局不成功，他们带走的就只有这个。

Because it's the bit that your readers are left And if the ending does not work, then that's what they're taking away.

就是这样，你确实会发现这种现象。

It's just like and you you do you do find this.

是的。

Yeah.

你在电影、电视剧和书籍中都会发现，基本上你会想，嗯，这个结局处理得还不错。

You find it in films and TV and books where, basically, you kind of think, well, that came out a bit well.

我觉得那个结局并不合理，或者你觉得那太压抑了，或者你觉得那是个悬崖式结尾，而系列的下一部书要七年后才出版。

I feel that that was a good ending that wasn't earned, or you feel, well, that was a bit depressing, or you feel, well, that was a cliffhanger where the next book in the series isn't gonna come out for seven years.

你知道，结局应该是书中所有你打算收束的内容都自然而然地导向的那个点，尽管在导向的过程中，你根本看不出它最终会走向那里。

And, you know, you the ending needs to be the bit where everything that you intend to tie up in the book turns out to have been inexorably leading to that ending, even though while it was doing that leading, that wasn't remotely obviously where it was going.

所以这就像任何一种反转，它必须是之前所有情节的合乎逻辑的结果，但同时又要出人意料，而这正是写作技巧的重要部分。

So it's it's a lot like any kind of twist, in that it needs to be the very logical result of what's gone before, but also to be a surprise, and that's a big part of the craft.

而那部分是你事先没有规划好的？

And that's the part that you don't have planned?

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，这大概就是为什么我不太愿意提前规划，这样当我写到最后一幕时，整本书的走向会自然带我到达它该去的地方，而不是我强行决定：‘显然结局应该是这样，角色们会这么做，他会死，他会活下来’等等。

I mean, this is probably why I I try not to plan it so that by the time I get to that final scene, the motion of the book to that point takes me to where it needs to go rather than me trying to say, well, obviously, it's gonna end in this way, and these characters will do that, and he will die, and he will live, and so forth.

我只是让这些细节自然浮现，希望正因如此，我的书才能有一个令人满意的结局——因为此时此刻，这是这本书唯一可能的结局，而我并没有强加任何东西。

It's just like, I will let those details turn up organically, and I hopefully, that's what gives the book, in my case, a a satisfactory ending because it's the only ending the book can at that point have, and I'm not imposing it in any way.

谢谢你的到来

Thanks for coming on

这档节目。

the show.

很高兴认识你。

It's good to meet you.

哦，这真是一次愉快的经历。

Oh, it's been a pleasure.

是的。

Yeah.