如何与人交谈：如何认识你的邻居

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朱莉，跟我说说你和你邻居的关系吧。在我们公寓楼里，那是一栋巨大的公寓楼。基本上有一个城市街区那么大，里面住了超多人。我唯一知道名字的人只有我的隔壁邻居，因为我们共享一个屋顶露台。就像，我能隔着栅栏看到他们。

Julie, tell me about your relationship with your neighbors. In our apartment building, it's a huge apartment building. It's basically the size of a whole city block, and there are tons of people in there. The only people whose names I even know are my immediate neighbors because we share a roof patio. Like, I can see them over the fence.

他们刚搬进来的时候，我记得我和我的伴侣在屋顶上打理花园，我当时说，乔，我们需要去跟他们自我介绍一下。然后他说，不，我们不去。他说，

And when they first moved in, I remember my partner and I were like gardening on the roof and I was like, Joe, we need to introduce ourselves to them. And he was like, nope. We're not going to. He's like,

我不想。

I don't want to.

你可以那样做。你知道，我们确实交换了名字并打了招呼，那感觉像是个巨大的胜利。然而，之后我们每次在屋顶上见到对方，立刻就又回到互相无视的状态。也许会有个小挥手，但也就那样了。嗨。

You can do that. You know, we did exchange names and say hi, and that felt like a big victory. However, we immediately thereafter went back to ignoring each other every time we see each other on the roof. Maybe there's a small wave, but like that's it. Hi.

我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。我是贝卡·拉希德，《How To》系列的制作人。这里是《如何与人交谈》。想想看邻居是字面意义上离你最近最近的人，但我们这么多人却完全不认识他们，这真的很奇怪。

I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic. And I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How To Series. This is How To Talk To People. It's really strange to think that neighbors are the people who are literally closest closest to you, and yet so many of us don't know them at all.

你知道，我常在镇上和社区里散步，我会因为每个人都这么冷漠而烦躁。现在的人都是怎么了？十年前我住在这里时他们不是这样的。但后来我开始反思，嗯，我其实也和他们差不多，因为我也没有主动联系他们。

You know, I'd walk around town and I'd walk around the neighborhood and I'd be grumpy that everyone was so cold. And what are people like these days? They weren't like this when I lived here ten years ago. But then I started practicing, you know, well, I'm kinda like them too because I'm not reaching out to them.

你知道吗？是的。皮特·戴维斯是一位公民倡导者，也是这本书《专注：无限浏览时代中承诺的价值》的作者。他认为邻居们不总是费心去互相了解的一个原因是，他认为我们的社会存在承诺问题。

You know? Yeah. Pete Davis, is a civic advocate and the author of this book, Dedicated, The case for commitment in an age of infinite browsing. He thinks one reason that neighbors don't always bother to get to know one another is he thinks our society has commitment issues.

我注意到所有给我希望的人以及给我同龄人希望的人都有一个共同点，那就是他们都决定放弃保持选择开放的生活，而是长期致力于某一特定事物。

And what I noticed that all the people that were giving me hope had in common and given my peers hope had in common was they were all people who decided to forgo a life of keeping their options open and instead make a commitment to a particular thing over the long haul.

那么，保持选择开放与我们感觉与社区相连的感觉有什么关系呢？承诺究竟是如何帮助我们感到连接的？

So what does keeping our options open have to do with our sense of feeling like we're connected to our community? What exactly about committing helps us feel connected?

你知道，我毕业后搬回了家乡，刚回去时我对一切都只是浮于表面，只是想重新感受一下这个地方。我对这个地方感到失望，我在想，我们为什么要搬回来？也许我们不该搬回来。我搬回来只是因为怀旧吗？

You know, I moved back to my hometown after school, and I was gliding on the surface of everything when I moved back, just trying to, like, get a sense of the place again. And and I was feeling down on the place. I'm like, why did we move back? Maybe we shouldn't have moved back. Am I just moving back because I have this nostalgia?

你知道，所有这些想法。当你考虑与邻居成为朋友时，我提到的那些对承诺的恐惧也会出现。如果我必须承诺每周四晚上7点去参加这个会议，谁知道我会错过什么？但当我认识了这些人后，我让自己感到惊讶。每次我开始经过他们的房子时，我就会想，哦，我知道那房子里发生了什么。

You know, all these things. You know, when you think about becoming friends with a neighbor, those fears that I mentioned of commitment are fears that are present with you. If I have to commit to every Thursday at 7PM to go to this meeting, who knows what I'll miss out on? And then I surprised myself when I got to know all these people. And every time I started passing by their house, I'm like, oh, I know what goes on inside that house.

我知道谁住在那里。

I know who lives there.

我确实觉得如今有一个常见的说法，人们不再像过去那样了解他们的邻居了。这是真的吗？美国人曾经有过真正擅长了解邻居的时候吗？

I do feel like there is a common refrain these days that people just don't know their neighbors like they used to. Is that true? Was there ever a time when Americans were really good at getting to know their neighbors?

是的，我认为这是真的。我觉得，你知道，怀旧情绪一直存在，但我们实际上有数据显示这种怀旧可能是有道理的。这里的重要参考是罗伯特·帕特南的《独自打保龄》，这本书在二十一世纪初因论述美国社区衰落而闻名。他提供了大量数据集和图表，一个接一个地证明情况确实如此。

Yeah. I think it is true. I think, you know, there's always been a spirit of nostalgia, but we actually have data to show that this type of nostalgia might be correct. The great site here is Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, the book that kind of was famous in the early two thousands about the decline of community in America. And he has dataset after dataset, graph after graph that shows that this is the case.

所以，你知道，广义上的邻居——你所在城镇的人们，从任何角度看，我们都在目睹衰退。从1970年代到1990年代，我们每年参加的俱乐部会议次数减少了一半。担任俱乐部职务的人数、参加公共会议的人数，都大幅下降。宗教会众的成员比例，在世纪中叶是75%的美国人，而最近几年已跌破50%。明白吗？

So, you know, neighbors in the broad sense of the term, you know, people in your town, look at any angle on it, and we're seeing a decline. So between the nineteen seventies and the nineteen nineties, the amount of club meetings that we went to per year was cut in half. The amount of people serving as an officer in a club, the amount of people attending public meetings, all major declines. Membership in religious congregations, it was 75% of Americans at the mid century mark, And now it in the last few years, it crossed under 50%. You know?

再看非正式社交，帕特南找到了全国野餐数据集，显示在七十年代中期，我们平均每年和邻居进行五次野餐。

You look at informal socializing, Putnam was able to find the national picnic dataset where, you know, in the mid seventies, went on an average of five picnics a year with our neighbors.

天啊。

Oh my.

而到九十年代，这一数字下降到了两次。

And that was down to two by the nineties.

所以让野餐回归吧。哦，我的天。

So Bring back picnics. Oh my god.

让野餐回归。你知道，举办晚宴派对的人数，以及自称没有朋友的人数。在1990年，只有3%的美国人这样表示。到2021年，这一比例达到了12%。所以，你知道，我们确实有数字表明我们正面临邻里关系危机。

Bring back picnics. You know, amount of people doing dinner parties, the amount of people that say they have no friends. You know, in 1990, that was only 3% of Americans. In 2021, it was 12%. And so, you know, we do have numbers that show we're in a neighboring crisis.

嗯，我知道我们已经通过辣味野餐数据讨论过这个话题，但你能给我们概述一下美国人与邻居的关系在过去大约五十年里是如何演变的吗？

And and well, I know we've already been talking about this with the spicy picnic data, but can you give us kind of an overview of how Americans relationship with their neighbors has evolved in, let's say, like, the last fifty years?

是的。你知道，甚至在七十年代就有一篇著名的文章写到了后院露台的早期兴起，作者是理查德·托马斯。你知道，前廊曾经是房子标志性的附属结构。从七八十年代开始，人们对后院露台的兴趣开始增长，然后在九十年代和二月份爆发式增长。

Yeah. You know, there was a famous essay even written back in the seventies about the early rise of back patios. It was by Richard Thomas. And, you know, the front porch used to be the iconic, you know, appendage to a house. And starting in the seventies and eighties, interests in back patios started growing and then exploded in the nineties and February.

现在当你观看HGTV频道或被房产经纪人带着参观新房或新建房屋时，他们会更多地谈论后院露台而不是前廊。这两者都是社交场所。区别在于后院露台是和你已经认识的朋友相处，而前廊则是一个机会，让你认识起初是陌生人的邻居，把他们变成你熟悉的朋友——如果主要的社交区域在房子后面而不是前面，这种情况就变得不太可能了。

And now when you're watching HGTV or being toured in a new house or a new build by a realtor, they're gonna talk more about the back patio than the front porch. And both of those are socializing. The difference is the back patio is friends you already know, whereas the front porch is an opportunity to meet the people that start as strangers who live around you and turn them into friends that you know, which is much less likely if the main socializing area of is in the back of your house than in the front of your house.

是啊。我在努力回想，我是否记得《房屋猎人》中有哪一集他们真的对前廊感到兴奋，但什么都想不起来。

Yeah. I'm trying to think if I can even remember, like, an episode of House Hunters where they were really excited about a front porch and nothing is coming to mind.

想象一下坐在前廊上。这听起来真的很老派，但仔细想想。你知道，你坐在前廊上，有人遛狗经过时向你挥手，然后你注意到他们穿着齐柏林飞艇乐队的T恤，而你也喜欢齐柏林飞艇。然后你可以说，哦天啊，好棒的T恤。

Think about sitting on a front porch. This sounds really old fogey like, but just think about it. You know, you sit on the front porch and someone walking by with their dog waves at you, and then you notice that they're wearing a Led Zeppelin T shirt, and you like Led Zeppelin too. And then you can say, oh my gosh. Nice shirt.

然后他们开始聊天，说他们去看了演唱会。然后你说，哦，你知道，过来坐一会儿吧，我这里有冰茶。因为是在前廊，也许你还不认识这个人，你不觉得请他们进屋里自在。

And then they start talking, and they say they went to the concert. And then you say, oh, you know, come on over and sit on the porch for a second. I have a, you know, I have I have iced tea out here. And because it's a front porch, maybe you don't know this person yet. You don't feel comfortable to have them into your house.

但我们过去设计房屋的方式中，有这样一个介于陌生人和亲密隐私之间的过渡空间，社区就是在这里建立起来的。

But we used to design our houses in a way that had this liminal space between kind of stranger and intimate privacy where community is built.

所以我们学到的是应该多举办野餐活动，应该从前廊向路过的行人打招呼。好的。很好。很好。很好。也许还有一个障碍是，除了地理上的邻近，我们对邻居缺乏足够的了解背景。

So what we've learned is we should have more picnics, and we should holler at people from our front porch as they pass Okay. Great. Great. Great. Maybe also, part of the barrier to talking to our neighbors is that we don't have a lot of context for them beyond their geographical proximity.

嗯。也许我们知道他们每天早上八点遛狗，但不知道他们是怎样的人。确实。很多时候让我对邻居不太有信心的是，我可能误打误撞加入了Nextdoor社区平台，本想找些旧衣交换之类的活动。但那简直是个充斥着人们恐惧和展现最阴暗面的艰难空间。

Mhmm. Maybe we know that they walk their dog at 08:00 every morning, but we don't know what kind of person they are Right. A lot of the time. One thing that's not given me a great ton of faith in my neighbors is I joined Nextdoor, perhaps misguidedly, just looking for, I don't know, you know, clothing swaps or something. And it's a really tough space of just like people's fears and like worst side really being on display.

满屏都是关于犯罪的帖子，比如'我害怕这个'、'小心那两个前几天盯着我房子看的年轻男孩'。我认为人们通常有充分理由对与邻居互动保持警惕，因为对方可能带着许多偏见、无端恐惧、假设以及种族主义或性别主义前来交流——这些因素使得与陌生人的公共互动可能从极度不适到危险不等。是的。所以我确实要承认，如果有人担心邻居不把自己当完整的人看待，这种顾虑非常合理。

It's just like post after post about like crime and I'm afraid of this. Watch out for these two, like, young boys that were looking at my house the other day. And I think people are often like very reasonably wary of interacting with their neighbors in the sense that like those people might be coming to those interactions with a lot of biases, unwarranted fears and assumptions and racism or sexism or any of the, like, things that can make our interactions with strangers in public ranging from extremely uncomfortable to dangerous. Right. And so, like, I do wanna acknowledge if people have that wariness of, like, their neighbors not treating them as fully human, like that is very fair.

仅仅提升聊天技巧并不能消除种族主义、性别主义、街头骚扰或其他任何侵蚀邻里关系的深层社会问题。这比'我知道邻居名字吗'要复杂得多。

Simply getting better at talking to people is not going to dissolve racism or sexism or street harassment or any of those deep rooted societal problems that infect our relationships with our neighbors. That's a much bigger problem than just like, do I know my neighbor's name?

我不想天真地认为每个邻居都会友善。即使在友善的邻居中，由于我们所处的文化环境——我称之为2020年代美国的'门铃摄像头文化'，门外的人总被看作别有用心者，无论是拉选票的政客还是上门推销员。如果我们生活在社区联系薄弱的低信任度社会，建立社区确实比高信任度时代更困难。但这不是必须独自完成的事——如果你在公寓楼里有三个朋友，你们相处已久且更自信外向，拥有更多社交资本和更少恐惧（这并非优越感，而是个人特质），你就应该用这份余裕主动破冰。

I don't wanna be naive with all this messaging that, you know, every neighbor is going to be nice. And even among nice neighbors, there's gonna be this layer just because of the culture that we're living in of seeing more, you know, I call it the ring camera culture of twenty twenties America, where everyone outside your door is, like, someone who's out to get you, whether it's, like, a politician trying to get your vote or a door to door salesperson. If that's your experience of the outside world, because we live in such a low community time, it's harder to form community now than it is in a higher trust society or a higher trust era. I don't think it's something we all have to do alone. If you're the type of person that knows three other people in the apartment complex and you're all friends, you've been there a long time and you're more confident and you're more outgoing and you have less to lose and you're less scared of this thing, which doesn't make you any better, but it's just like a quality you have, You need to give a little bit that to everyone else by being the person who has a little bit more wiggle room to have the vulnerability to lead in breaking the ice.

是的。当敲门行为变得越来越罕见时，有人敲门就会更令人警觉，或者人们在家时就预期不会被打扰。那么如何与邻居建立既保持必要尊重距离，又能提供一定支持度的亲密关系呢？

Yeah. As it becomes less common for anyone even to knock on your door, then it's, like, more alarming when someone does, or you're just expecting that when you're at home, you're gonna be left alone. So how can you build relationships with your neighbors that are respectfully distant as they need to be, but also can be intimate enough to provide some support?

邀请他人参与你生活的方式很多，敲门不是唯一选择。可以留下让接收方感到舒适的邀请，让他们自主决定是否参与。没人喜欢那种一上来就过度亲密的人。

There's a lot of ways to invite people to come be part of your life. So, you know, one of them isn't knocking. It could be leaving an invitation that'll make them feel comfortable to kind of receive this message and then make an affirmative choice to join or not. No one wants that person who immediately is way too vulnerable and intimate with you.

你知道吗，贝卡，有时候我觉得有一种无形的屏障，在你能对邻居开口说话之前，几乎需要耗费体力才能突破。有位叫欧文·戈夫曼的社会学家称这种屏障为‘礼貌性忽视’。本质上，这就是我们在公共场合对陌生人默认的礼貌姿态。就像是在说，我注意到你的存在，然后你就完全收回注意力，看向别处，看手机，不去打扰他们。

You know, Becca, sometimes I feel like there's this sort of invisible barrier that it feels almost physically effortful to push through before you can just say something to a neighbor. There was a sociologist named Irving Goffman who called that barrier civil inattention. And it's essentially, you know, the default polite posture that we have towards strangers in public. It's like essentially saying, I see that you exist. And then you completely withdraw your attention from them and look away and look at your phone and and leave them alone.

所以这就像在洗手间里，当你们俩都在洗手时总是发生的那种情况？

So this is like what always happens in the bathroom when you're both washing your hands?

是的，没错。镜子里的短暂眼神接触，勉强的微笑，然后你低下头，非常非常孤独地洗手。这正是我楼里发生的情况，对吧？

Yes. That's right. The brief eye contact in the mirror, the tight smile, and then you look down and you're washing your hands like very, very solitarily. That is exactly what happens in my building. Right?

你知道，当我们沿着走廊迎面走来时，我们都低着头，低着头，然后勉强笑一下，接着擦肩而过，谁也不说话。这让我觉得试图和他们搭话会是一种侵犯。就像我们都在暗示我们想独自待着。

You know, you we're walking down the hall towards each other. We're looking down, looking down, and then there's, like, a little smile, and then we pass each other and we don't speak. That makes me feel like it would be invasive to try to strike up a conversation with them. Like, we're both signaling that we wanna be left alone.

我要给你讲个小故事，关于一个确实侵犯了我空间的邻居。好吧，我没事，我很好。但是，好吧。

I'm gonna tell you a little story about my neighbor who did invade my space. Okay. I'm safe. I'm fine. But Alright.

我当时正要走进我们楼里的两部电梯之一。我们有一个大的搬沙发用的楼层间电梯，还有一个小电梯，一次不应该有超过一个人进去。

I was getting into one of two elevators in my building. We have our big moving your couch from floor to floor elevator, and then the small elevator that not more than one person should be getting into at a time.

我敢肯定是那个小的。

And it was the small one, I'm sure.

当然，是那个小个子。

It was, of course, the small one.

没错。

That's right.

他住在我隔壁，和我一起挤进小电梯里，他只是稍微转过身说，所以你是个歌手。

He lives next door to me and squeezed into the small elevator with me, and he just slightly turned his body and said, so you're a singer.

而我，我——顺便说一句，你确实是。

And I I Which you are, for the record.

我想我是。然后我就开始不停地道歉。

I think I am. And I just started profusely apologizing.

我当时说，我很抱歉。我完全不知道我的YouTube卡拉OK放得那么大声，而且我还在上面唱歌。但是

I was like, I'm so sorry. I had no idea that my YouTube karaoke was playing that loud, and I was singing over it. But

这让我变得非常自觉。正如你所说，有人打破了我们之间那个从不承认我们有这种关系——无论它是什么——的无形泡沫。所以

it made me extremely self aware. As you said, someone popped that invisible bubble between us of never acknowledging that we have this relationship, whatever it may be. So do

你是不是希望他干脆什么都没说，继续维持那种你们只是互不相识的陌生人的假象？

you wish he had just never said anything and continued the sort of fiction that you are just two strangers who know nothing about each other?

我的意思是，虽然有点让人措手不及，但最终其实还挺好的。

I mean, as much as it was a bit jarring, in the end it was actually kind of nice.

好吧。那么如果你能

Okay. So what if you could

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贝卡，我确实觉得

Becca, I do feel like

皮特·戴维斯会赞同你邻居在电梯里的举动。他们可能透露了自己有点在偷听你，但这也是一个完美的例子，展示了邻居可以采取的那种小步骤，来充分利用某个时刻建立联系，但又不会，你知道，太快变得过于亲密。

Pete Davis would approve of your neighbor's move in the elevator. They might have revealed that they were eavesdropping a little bit on you, but it's also like a perfect example of the sort of small step that neighbors can take to kinda make the most of a moment and connect, but not, you know, get too intimate too fast.

皮特是务实步骤的忠实粉丝。所以，是的。

Pete is a big fan of the practical steps. So, yes.

你知道，我和我的直接邻居大概有一年的时间都在互相寒暄。我对他已经形成了一个印象，因为我知道他像是……什么

You know, my direct neighbor, we kinda exchanged pleasantries for, like, a year. And I had formed an opinion of him because I knew he was like What

是什么印象？

was the opinion?

我形成了一些看法，哦，他是那种典型的华盛顿官僚，你知道，我有点古怪，我们完全不像。然后有一天，偶然间，我音乐放得太大声了，他说，哦，我听到你在放Jason Isbell的歌，我超爱美国根源音乐。其实我还在一个美国根源乐队里，我爸是个有名的蓝grass班卓琴手。我们在JV's餐厅演出，那可是我们镇上最酷的场地。然后他带我进他家，给我看他的吉他，都是经典款，哇。

I had formed some, oh, he's, you know, he's like a classic DC bureaucrat, and, you know, I'm a little weird, and we're not like each other at all. And then one day, just in passing, I had played music too loud, And he said, oh, I heard you were playing Jason Isbell, and I love Americana music. And I'm actually in an Americana band, and my dad was this famous bluegrass banjo player. And we play at JV's restaurant, which is, like, the coolest venue in our town. And then he led me inside his house and showed me, you know, his guitars, like classic Wow.

经典操作，带我看你的吉他室之类的，但就像是跨代际的男人之间的连接。就因为那次偶然的契机，我们有了这个共同点，我们对彼此的看法完全改变了。

Classic dude, show me your guitar room or something, but, like, intergenerational dude connection. And because of that one moment of happenstance where we had this connection, we think completely differently about each other.

我们和邻居之间确实有一种奇怪的亲密感。比如，他能透过墙听到你在放什么音乐。是的，你们共享一堵墙。但如果我们擦肩而过，我们某种程度上不承认那种奇怪的亲密，或者就假装是完全陌生、彼此毫无了解的陌生人。

There is a weird intimacy that we do have with our neighbors. Like, he can hear what you're playing through the wall. Yes. You share a wall. But if we pass each other, we sort of don't acknowledge that weird intimacy or we just pretend that we're complete strangers with no context of each other.

完全正确。而且在某些方面，有时当这种亲密感被承认时，人们反而会松一口气，因为它化解了所有的紧张感。你知道吗？我能听到你。我能看到你。

Totally. And in some ways, sometimes people are relieved when the intimacy is admitted to because it pops the tension of it all. You know? I can hear you. I can see you.

我看到你没把垃圾拿出去之类的，你知道，不是要打探隐私。你知道，我们总是不想要过度一致，也不想要侵犯隐私，但中间应该有个平衡点。

I saw that you didn't bring your trash out or something, you know, without being nosy. You know, there's always the we don't want Uber conformity, and we don't want, you know, invasions of privacy, but there's something in the middle.

是啊。我住的楼，上帝保佑他们，他们总是试图举办这些社区活动。比如情人节的时候，就会说，下来拿些免费饮料和饼干吧。然后人们会去，但拿了吃的就走。

Yeah. My building, god bless them, they're always trying to host these, like, community events. So, you know, it'll be like, it's Valentine's Day. Like, come down and get some, like, free drinks and cookies. And people will go, and then they'll just take the food and leave.

是啊。或者他们就只跟一起来的人聊天，就是他们本来就住在一起的人。根本没有交流互动。他们没能让人们混在一起。他们到底哪里做错了？

Yeah. Or they'll just talk to kinda whoever they live with that they already came down there with. There's no mixing. They're not getting people to mix. What are they doing wrong?

是啊。你知道，我们需要让居民自己来办一些这样的活动。如果是由一个没有面孔的开发商或物业经理来办，如果能个性化一点，说明是真实的人在主办，可能会更有效果。嗯。你知道，还得有一个积极主动的主持人，尽管当主持人好像很烦人，得说，嘿。

Yeah. You know, we need to have some of these events run by the people themselves. And if kind of a faceless developer or property manager does it, if they personalized it by saying the real person that was hosting it, it might have more of an effect. Mhmm. You know, you also have to have an aggressive host even though it seems like it's really annoying to be the host that says, hey.

我认识你，也认识你。所以你们应该聊聊，因为你们都是护士，而且你们俩的孩子都上三年级。你们应该交流一下。你知道，这才是能把人聚在一起的方式。不是说你摆出情人节饼干，大家就会自动聊天，因为必须有人来打破僵局，把大家聚在一起。

I got to know you, and I got to know you. And so you should talk because you're both nurses, and you two both have third graders. You guys should talk. You know, that is the type of thing that brings people together. It's not just automatic of, you know, you lay out Valentine's Day cookies and everyone's gonna talk because you have to have someone that breaks the ice and brings people together.

嗯，这就是我纠结的地方。对吧？因为我能理解，当你刚搬到一个地方时，这似乎是个自然的机会，可以介绍自己给邻居什么的。但我在我住的楼里已经住了两年半了。我在这个社区住了快十年了。

Well, this is where I struggle. Right? Because I can see how when you first move somewhere, that seems like a natural opportunity to introduce yourself to the people who live next to you or something. But I've lived in my building for two and a half years now. I've lived in my neighborhood for almost ten years.

而且，我觉得已经太晚了。我没有那种新来的借口了。现在时间过去太久了，突然想搞点什么，感觉真的很奇怪。

And, like, I feel like it's too late. I don't have that excuse of being new anymore. Now so much time has passed that it just feels really weird to randomly, like, try to get something going now.

是啊。你知道，刚搬到一个地方时确实挺好的，你有这个借口，比如，嗨，我刚搬来。人们会给你一个蜜月期，觉得这么说并不奇怪。但当你不再是新人的时候，那种‘免尴尬通行证’就没了。不过，你知道，我一直认为这事我们不需要想得太复杂。对吧？

Yeah. You know, it is nice when you just move somewhere that you have this excuse like, hi. I just moved here, and people are gonna give you the honeymoon period of that's not a weird thing to say. That get out of awkwardness free card is gone when you're not new But, you know, I've always believed that this isn't something that we need to overthink. You know?

你必须以某种方式主动接近邻居，邀请他们与你更亲近，这显然非常尴尬，以至于我们彼此之间都不那么亲近了。但每个人都在等待别人对他们这样做。你知道，这很有趣。在某种程度上，我们都在彼此玩囚徒困境的游戏，就像是，我不信任他们，或者我不信任他们会信任我。而他们心里在想，我不信任他们，或者我不信任他们会信任我，或者也许他们不信任我，等等。

You have to just walk up to a neighbor in some way and invite them to be closer to you, which is obviously really so awkward that it's the reason we're all not neighborly with each other. But everyone is waiting for someone to do that to them. You know, that's the funny thing. And in some ways, we're all playing a prisoner's dilemma with each other, where it's like, I don't trust them or I don't trust them to trust me. And they're thinking in their head, I don't trust them or I don't trust them to trust me or maybe they don't trust me or whatever.

打破这种囚徒困境的方法是，有人愿意多做一点，表现出一些脆弱性。所以，送礼物就是一个例子，我特意向你展示了一种善意，不仅表明我更值得信任一点，也表明我认为你也更值得信任一点。在走廊里经过时，提一下你上周末去的音乐会。聊聊你的家庭。不需要透露太多信息。

And the way to break that prisoner's dilemma with each other is for someone to go a little bit above and beyond to have an act of vulnerability. And so a gift is one example of that, which is I went out of my way to show you an act of goodwill, to show you not only that I'm trustworthy a little bit more, but also that I think you're trustworthy a little bit more. Mention the concert you went to last weekend when you're passing in the hallway. Mention something about your family. It doesn't need to be totally too much information.

它可能只是人格层面的更进一步。

It could just be the next level of personality.

你知道，贝卡，即使是在最善意、最老套的邻居互动中，比如去借东西，我自己实际上也有过一次负面经历。

You know, Becca, even at the most sort of super benign and cliched neighbor interaction of going over to borrow something, I've actually had a negative experience with that myself.

你能告诉我那个邻居发生了什么吗？

Can you tell me what happened with that neighbor?

是的。我的意思是，这是一个非常简单的互动。我刚搬进现在的公寓楼。我们有搬家用的箱子，但我意识到我把剪刀打包在其中一个用胶带封好的箱子里了，我需要剪刀来打开那个用胶带封好的箱子拿到剪刀。我想，你知道，这没问题。

Yeah. I mean, it was a really simple interaction. I had moved into my current apartment building. We boxes for moving, but I realized that I had packed the scissors inside one of the taped up boxes, and I needed scissors to open up the taped up box to get the scissors. I thought, you know, that's fine.

我就去问邻居要。每个人都有剪刀。这是个介绍自己并得到我需要的东西的机会。所以我走到走廊，敲了一扇门下似乎有灯光或者看起来家里有人的门。一个非常匆忙的女人来开门，她耳朵上贴着电话，她说，什么事？

I'll just go ask a neighbor. Everybody has scissors. That's opportunity to introduce myself and also get something that I need. So I went down the hall and I knocked on the door that had like a light on under it or something where seemed like somebody was home. And this very harried woman came to the door and she had her phone at her ear and she was like, what?

你需要什么？天哪。我当时就说，哦天哪。真抱歉。我刚搬进来。

What do you need? My god. And I was like, oh my god. I'm so sorry. Like, I just moved in.

我只是想借把剪刀。我不是故意打扰你的，但你有剪刀吗？她有点不耐烦地哼了一声，然后走开拿了剪刀，确实给了我，但态度非常不耐烦。她大概没想到大白天会有陌生人敲门，而且她还在打电话。我就用了她的剪刀，然后默默还了回去，之后我们再也没说过话。

I just needed to borrow some scissors. Like, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but do you have scissors? And she kinda like huffed and then like went off and got the scissors and and she did give them to me, but in like a very annoyed way. She probably wasn't expecting a rando to like knock on her door in the middle of the day when she was on a phone call. I just like went and used her scissors and then silently returned them and then we never spoke again.

你还剪刀的时候她道歉了吗？

Did she apologize when you returned the scissors?

没有。她只是接过去，说了声谢谢。我觉得她可能觉得被打扰了，隐私被侵犯了，但我的请求其实很平常，却遭到了公开的敌意。嗯。所以这让我不想再敲更多门了。

No. She just like took them back and just was like, thanks. I think she probably felt sort of interrupted and having her privacy impeded upon, but also I had like a very benign request and was met with open hostility. Mhmm. So it did not make me want to knock on more doors.

那是肯定的。这只是个提醒，就像，仅仅因为有人住在你附近，并不意味着他们会很友善。你怎么能在不觉得自己是个麻烦的情况下向隔壁邻居求助呢？

That's for sure. It was just a reminder, like, just because somebody lives near you doesn't mean they're going to be neighborly. How can you ask a next door neighbor for help without feeling like you're an inconvenience?

嗯，奇妙的是，你知道，在人际关系中，一切都与我们恐惧所告诉我们的运作方式相反。所以，你认为付出意味着失去，但实际上付出是一种获得。你认为当你展示自己时，会因为你的独特性而被讨厌，但实际上这会让你更受喜爱，而平庸才会让你与他人疏远。

Well, the amazing thing is that, you know, with relationships, it all works the opposite of what our fears are telling us the way that they work. So, you know, you think giving something away means you lose something, but actually giving something is a gain. You think that when you reveal something about yourself, it'll make you hated because people will disagree with the particularities of you, but it actually makes you loved more and being generic is what alienates you from people.

其中一件既让人宽慰又艰难的事是，一方面，想要拥有那种社区感觉如此困难，并不全是因为你不够努力，因为有很多制度性因素在起作用。但另一方面，这也让人沮丧，因为作为一个人，我能改变这些的力量是有限的。

One of the things that's been relieving but also tough is that, like, on the one hand, the idea that having that kind of community you want feels so hard is not just your fault for not trying hard enough because there's a lot of institutional things at work. But then it also feels discouraging because there's only so much I, as one person, can do to change any of that.

这不是我们任何人的错，我们也不应该为此负责。这并不是在指责个人独自解决这个问题。答案并非仅仅是我们所有人都决定更友善、更多联系。这需要我们在个人层面这样做的同时，重建有助于我们这样做的公民基础设施。嗯。

It is none of our faults, and we shouldn't be accountable. This is not a finger wagging at individuals to solve this alone. Like, the answer is just gonna be all of us decide to be nicer and reach out more. It needs to be a mix of us individually doing that and rebuilding the civic infrastructure that helps us do it. Mhmm.

你知道，这不仅仅是联系你的邻居。而是联系你的邻居，讨论我们如何能更好地联系我们的邻居。

You know, it's not just reaching out to your neighbors. It's reaching out to your neighbors to talk about how we can reach out to our neighbors.

那么你在生活中做过哪些事情来承诺并坚持与邻居保持联系？你会给他们带饼干吗？你都做些什么？

And what are some things that you've done in your life to be committed and stay committed to your neighbors? Do you bring them cookies? What do you do?

是的。你知道，我们正在提升送礼的水平。

Yeah. You know, we are increasing our gift game.

好的。

Okay.

我...你最好的礼物是什么？我们现在主要是送烘焙食品和鲜花。实际上，送鲜花是一种双重承诺，因为我们去了本地农贸市场。我们和那里的花商成了朋友，很快还要去参观他们的花卉农场，因为我们决定不仅仅把他们当作买花的人。然后我们把那些花带给邻居，试图在那里建立联系。

I've What's your best gift? We're mostly doing baked goods and flowers now. And and actually, the flowers is a double commitment, which is our local farmers market. We've become friends with the florists there, and we're gonna go visit the florists at their flower farm soon because we've decided to not just, like, treat them as, you know, the person we buy flowers from. And then we bring those flowers to our neighbors and try to have a connection there.

是的。好的。我最后还有一个问题给你，这个问题很哲学。社区对你来说意味着什么？

Yeah. Okay. I just have one last question for you. It's very philosophical. What does community mean to you?

改变我人生最多的一本书是马丁·布伯的《我与你》，他是二十世纪初的犹太神学家。他阐述了两种与世界互动的方式：我-它和我-你。我-它关系是指你将周围的一切——包括他人和整个世界——都视为客体。

The book that changed my life more than any other, it's called I and Thou by Martin Buber, who is a Jewish theologian from early twentieth century. He lays out these two ways of relating to the world. He calls it I and it and I and thou or I and you. And what I and it is is you see everything around you. You see other people, but also the whole world.

你将它们看作对象，它们只是在你生活中扮演某种角色，仅仅反映出它们对你的意义：如何困扰你、帮助你、与你的异同。而我-你关系则是将世界万物都视为'你'，他们是共同的主体，是生命游戏中的参与者，充满生机。

You see them as objects. It's that have served purposes in your life, only reflecting what they are to you, how they bother you or how they help you, how they're different from you, how they're similar to you, I and you relates to all the rest of the world as you. They are fellow subjects. They are also players in the video game of life. They are full of life.

他们有着你无法完全理解的深度。当你真正与他们互动，放下所有衡量他们是否对你有用、是否烦人、或与他人比较的念头时，你会仿佛沐浴在彼此共享现实的辉光中。他们同样存在于此。即使只是通过建立一个小小的关系在这场斗争中取得微小胜利，这绝非小事——它就是一切。

They have a depth that you can't understand. When you really are engaging with them and you let all of the ways that they measure up or help you or facilitate you or bother you or compare with everything else, when you let that fall away, you're, like, bathed in the light of their shared reality with you. They're also there. And even just a small victory in that fight by building a tiny relationship with one other person isn't a small thing. It's everything.

太精彩了。皮特，非常感谢你。能与你交谈并邀请你上节目真的非常非常棒。

That's amazing. Pete, thank you so much. It was really, really great talking to you and having you on the show.

非常感谢。非常欣赏你们正在做的事情。

Thank you so much. So appreciate what you're doing with us.

是啊。贝卡，我很欣赏皮特谈到的小步骤和小关系的重要性。我有时会陷入非黑即白的思维，觉得要么邻居会像那个'剪刀女士'一样讨厌我，要么如果我做对所有事，我们就会成为最好的朋友，晚上在屋顶一起喝啤酒。但就像大多数事情一样，我认为真相往往更介于两者之间。

Yeah. Becca, I appreciated Pete talking about like tiny steps and the importance of small relationships. I think I can get stuck in black and white thinking sometimes where I'm like, oh, the stakes are really high because either my neighbor's gonna hate me like the scissor lady or if I just do all the right things, then we're gonna be best buds and we'll share beers on the roof in the evening. And like, as with most things, I think the truth is often somewhere more in the middle.

还有一个叫做邓巴数的概念。心理学家罗宾·邓巴提出理论，认为人们认知上最多只能同时维持一定数量的关系，大约同时有5段深厚的亲密友谊，但总共可以维持约150段左右的友谊，包括更广泛的熟人圈、朋友的朋友、大学同学等。所以我觉得邻居可能属于那些外层关系，你只需要知道他们的名字和他们狗的名字就足够了，这种关系就挺好。

And there's this concept called Dunbar's number. The psychologist Robin Dunbar has theorized that people are only able to actually cognitively handle maintaining so many relationships at once, about five deep intimate friendships at a time. But you can actually handle about a 150 or so friendships total in your sort of larger web of the friends of friends and the college friends. So I feel like neighbors maybe fall into one of those outer rings where it's okay that you just sort of know their name and the name of their dog. And, you know, that type of relationship is enough.

所以关于我自己邻里关系的一个很小进展是，前几天我见到了那些屋顶邻居，就是一年前我们自我介绍过但之后再也没说过话的那几位。我强迫自己走过去说，嘿，你是某某和某某对吧？我还记得你们的名字。我只是说，你看，因为我们共享一个屋顶，如果你们哪天出门需要我们帮忙浇花，会很方便，我们很乐意帮忙。

So my very small update on my own neighbor relationship is the other day, I saw those same roof neighbors who we introduced ourselves to like a year ago and then never spoke to again. And I sort of made myself go over there and say like, hey, you're so and so and so and so. Right? Like, I remember your names. I just said, you know, I just wanted to offer like, since we share a roof and it would be really easy if you're ever out of town and you need us to water your plants, like, would be happy to.

他们回答说，哦，太好了。我们也很乐意帮忙。所以我们确实向建立一个小小的浇花关系迈出了微小的一步。我希望你为我感到骄傲。

And they were like, oh, great. Like, same. We would be happy to do that too. So we did make that tiny step towards a very small plant watering relationship. I hope you're proud of me.

我非常为你骄傲。

I'm very proud of you.

这可能很快就能过渡到屋顶小酌了。

And that may soon segue into rooftop drinks.

哦，嗯，看看吧。实际上，隔壁有个比陌生人稍微熟悉一点的人，这已经比什么都没有强多了。

Oh, well, we'll see. It's actually a lot more than nothing to have someone right next door who's a little something more than a stranger.

我的意思是，现在每次我唱歌，我知道有人在听。以上就是本期《如何与人交谈》的全部内容。本期节目由我和贝卡·拉希德制作，由朱莉·贝克主持。编辑由乔斯林·弗兰克负责。事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多完成。

I mean, now every time I sing, I know someone is listening. That's all for this episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Becca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck. Editing by Jocelyn Frank. Fact check by Anna Alvarado.

工程由罗布·斯默西亚克负责。特别感谢AC·瓦尔德斯。音频执行制作人是克劳丁·阿巴德。音频管理编辑是安德烈亚·瓦尔德斯。

Engineering by Rob Smersiak. Special thanks to AC Valdez. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Abade. The managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.

今天的节目由Eleven Labs赞助，这家公司创造了听起来不像AI声音的AI语音。就像这个声音一样。Eleven Labs为企业和公司提供技术支持，构建栩栩如生的对话式AI语音助手。他们的语音助手被用于处理各种事务，从客户支持查询、预约安排，甚至提供个性化的一对一辅导。所以，加入已经在其业务中使用AI语音的数千名领导者行列吧。

Today's episode is brought to you by eleven Labs, the company behind AI voices that don't sound like AI voices. Like this one. Eleven Labs powers companies and enterprises in building lifelike conversational AI voice agents. Their voice agents are used to handle everything from customer support queries, appointment scheduling, and even offer personalized one on one tutoring. So join the thousands of leaders already using AI Voice in their business.

访问elevenlabs.ioatlantic即可免费开始使用。

Visit elevenlabs.ioatlantic to get started for free.