如何不再在意他人的看法？一位电影制片人与一位治疗师的解答 | TED每日演讲

在Life Kit节目中，我们认真对待每一条建议。

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously.

我们为您带来基于证据的推荐内容。

We bring you evidence based recommendations.

为此，我们会与各领域的研究人员和专家进行对话。

And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics.

因为我们和您有着同样的疑问。

Because we have the same questions you do.

比如：我的洗发水里到底含有什么成分？

Like what's really in my shampoo?

或者：我该让孩子退出足球队吗？在经济不确定时期该如何处理我的储蓄？

Or should I let my kid quit soccer, or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times?

您可以在NPR应用或任何播客平台收听NPR的Life Kit节目。

You can listen to NPR's life kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

要知道，尽管我们很多人羞于承认，但在某种程度上都在乎别人的看法。

You know, even though many of us may be ashamed to admit it, we all care about what other people think to an extent.

有时这种在意很重要，但有时也完全不重要。

And sometimes that care is important, but sometimes it is also so not important.

很高兴今天能分享TED Talks Daily特别迷你系列《交汇点》的一期节目，探讨我们在乎他人看法的心理。

I'm excited to be sharing today a special episode of a TED Talks Daily miniseries called Intersections that explores the concept of caring about what other people think about us.

《交汇点》是TED Talks Daily推出的迷你系列，汇集专家们发人深省的对话，探讨塑造我们世界的思想。

Intersections as a miniseries is a place where TED Talks Daily is featuring thought provoking conversations between experts who are exploring the ideas that shape our world.

在本期节目中，网络红人巴伦·瑞安将与家庭治疗师斯蒂芬妮·耶茨·安尼亚比莱展开对话。

And today, in this episode, it is Internet personality, Baron Ryan, talking with family therapist Stephanie Yates Anyabile.

你可能还记得，斯蒂芬妮之前曾参加过我们的节目。

And what you may remember is that Stephanie has been on our show before.

我们在五月份曾与她探讨过如何无惧地应对关系中的变化。

We talked to her back in May about how to navigate changes in a relationship without fear.

所以今天能在节目中再次聚焦她，我感到非常激动。

So I'm really thrilled to be spotlighting her again today on the show.

今天她将与巴伦讨论如何戒掉讨好型人格，重获说'不'的能力。

She's talking with Barron today about how you can quit people pleasing and reclaim your ability to say no.

听完本期节目后，若想收听更多TED跨界内容，您可以在任何播客平台订阅TED Talks Daily获取。

After listening to this episode, if you want to hear more TED intersections, you can find it on TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

现在进入对话环节。

And now on to the conversation.

您正在收听的是TED每日演讲，我们每天为您带来新观点和对话，激发您的好奇心。

You're listening to TED Talks daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day.

我是主持人Elise Hu。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

TED跨界对话第二季回归了。

TED Intersections is back for a second season.

这个原创系列节目记录了TED演讲者之间未经排练的对话，探讨他们专业领域交叉的主题。

This original series features unscripted conversations between TED speakers taking on subjects at the intersection of their expertise.

在这场对话中，网络电影制作人Baron Ryan与婚姻家庭治疗师Stephanie r Yates Anyapule共同探讨了一个问题：如何学会爱自己？

In this conversation, Internet filmmaker, Baron Ryan, sits down with marriage and family therapist, Stephanie r Yates Anyapule to answer the question, how do you learn to love yourself?

他们深入探讨了讨好型人格的困境，我们为何如此在意他人看法，以及如何抵制那种暗中攀比的冲动。

They dig into the struggles of people pleasing, why we care so much about what people think of us, and how we can resist that sneaky urge to compare ourselves to others.

我非常尊重我父亲的意见。

I respect my dad's opinion a lot.

但很多时候，因为害怕而不敢打电话向他寻求建议。

And then so oftentimes, won't call him for advice because I'm scared.

害怕自己是错的。

That I'm wrong.

害怕自己是错的。

That I'm wrong.

正因为我如此尊重他的意见，内心总觉得无论怎样他都是对的。

And because I respect it so much that I know there's something inside that says he is right no matter what.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我觉得最不明智的做法之一就是过分听从长辈的意见。

But I think the one of the widest things we can do is not listen to our elders too closely.

自我探索的价值是巨大的，做错事并从中学习，比仅仅知道什么是错的却从不尝试更有意义。

There's a great value in discovery, in doing the wrong thing and learning for yourself, as opposed to learning what the wrong thing is and never trying the wrong thing.

所以我的第一个问题是：你如何看待讨好型人格在你与自我及他人关系中的表现？

So the first question I have is how do you see people pleasing manifest in your relationship with yourself and others?

我觉得你可能比我更适合回答这个问题。

I think you could probably answer this question better than I could.

但对我来说，意识到自己有讨好型人格倾向是一个缓慢的进化和觉醒过程。

But I think for me, realizing that I have people pleasing tendencies was a slow evolution, a slow revelation.

我意识到自己总在拿自己和那些明显的讨好者比较，甚至包括我的客户，你知道吗？

I realized that I was comparing myself to people that I thought were obvious people pleasers, like my clients even, you know?

但我开始发现，当某些人向我提出要求时，即使是我几周前就开始害怕的事情，我也不会拒绝，只因为我害怕如果特定的人觉得我难相处，那就会成为事实。

But I started realizing that when certain people would ask me for things, even if it was something I was dreading for weeks beforehand, I wouldn't say no, just because I think I was afraid that if a specific person saw me as difficult, then that's true.

所以我认为，这很大程度上取决于我对这个人的尊重程度，或渴望获得其喜爱和欣赏的程度。

So I think for me, it was very much based on my level of respect or desire for a person to love or appreciate me.

而且你知道，如果对方不属于这些范畴，我就能轻松说不。

And, you know, if they a person didn't fall into those categories, I could say no.

但如果属于，我连说'这对我来说是个挑战，但好吧，我会为你做'都异常困难。

But if they did, then I had a really hard time with just even saying, this is gonna be a challenge for me, but sure, I'll do it for you.

我甚至会表现得好像对此很兴奋。

And I would almost act as though I was excited about it.

所以讨好型人格在我身上以多种方式显现。

So people pleasing has shown up for me in multiple ways.

我觉得过去两三年里，这个问题变得更加明显，我也开始更有意识地在这方面下功夫。

And I think in the last two or three years, it's been a lot more obvious for me and something I've been working on a little bit more intentionally addressing.

你这边情况如何？

How about for you?

你说讨好型人格？你从不需要这样。

You said people pleasing, you never had it.

那是别人的问题。

It's for other people problem.

我是其他人。

I am the other people.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我想我仍然是个讨好型人格，这很有趣，因为我演讲的主题就是关于讨好他人，而我却能坦然承认这点。

I I had I I think I still am a people pleaser, and it's very funny that I can admit that because my talk is about people pleasing.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但我想你会明白的。

But I think you'll see it.

没有解决方案。

There's no solutions.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我只是看到了解决方案。

I think I just see the solution.

我看到了光明，却不知如何抵达。

I see the light, and I don't know how to get to it.

我认为我们——尤其是我——有这种倾向：一旦意识到自己在做什么，就觉得已经完成了。

I think we I especially have this tendency where once I'm aware of what I'm doing, I think that's it.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

哦，问题解决了。

Oh, problem solved.

我完成了。

I'm done.

而且还不止这些。

And that's not it.

是啊。

Yeah.

我看到这种情况几乎无处不在。

I see it happening pretty much, like, just everywhere.

我不知道。

I don't know.

就像刚才坐优步时，空调开得太猛了。

Just walking just like the Uber here, the air conditioning was just way too hard.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我什么都没说。

And I just didn't say anything.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后他问，是不是太冷了？

And he asked, like, is it too cold?

我说，不冷。

And I said, no.

是啊。

Yeah.

太冷了。

It was too cold.

是啊。

Yeah.

而我...我只是...我意识到了，但什么都没做

And I I just I I recognized it and didn't I didn't do anything about

它。

it.

对啊。

Yeah.

你看，我就是那种人，遇到那种情况，我绝对会说出来。

And see, I'm the type of person who, that kind of situation, I would absolutely say something.

甚至我们刚坐着听讲座时，我看到旁边女士掏出薄荷糖。

I even when we were just sitting in a talk, I saw the lady next to me pull out mints.

我就说：'能给我些你的薄荷糖吗？'

I'm like, oh, I have some of your mints?

我根本不认识她。

I don't know her.

但开口要这个完全没问题。

But don't have any issue asking for that.

但我有些非常亲密的家人...

But I have some family members, that I'm very close to.

那种事，他们绝不会做。

That kind of thing, they would never do.

他们绝不会开口，因为他们太清楚自己可能会给别人添麻烦或成为负担。

They would never ask because they're just that cognizant of being an inconvenience or feeling like a burden on someone.

我认为确实可以采取一些措施来改善讨好型人格的问题。

I think I do believe that there are things that can be done about people pleasing.

我不认为这是个无解的问题。

I don't think that it's something that is solution less.

我认为首先要向自己承认某些事困扰着我们，或可能困扰我们，并坦然接受这种可能性。

I think the first thing is admitting to ourselves that something is bothering us, or could bother us and feeling comfortable to even just communicate that possibility, to ourselves.

当我们越来越习惯承认时——因为有时候事后才意识到，该死，我当时...哦，我能说脏话吗？

And as we get more comfortable with admitting because sometimes it's like after the fact you realize like, Damn, I was Oh, can I cuss?

当然可以。

Sure.

好的。

Okay.

就像，天啊，我当时冷得要命。

It's kinda like, man, I was cold.

所以也许对陌生人不会，但你可以先从亲密朋友开始，说'我其实很抗拒，但愿意为你做这件事'，或者对家人这么说。

And so maybe in a situation with a stranger, no, but maybe you start with your close friends just saying, I'm dreading this, but I'm willing to do it for you or family.

我想，最大的问题是你永远无法完全放心地敞开心扉。

I mean, there's a I guess, the big problem was you never quite feel safe opening up.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为每次你看到，那又是我的一个问题。

Because every time you see, that that's another problem of mine.

我说'你'而不是'我'。

I say you instead of I.

没关系。

That's okay.

我理解。

I get it.

这对讲故事确实很有帮助，因为人们会产生共鸣说'你'，而如果我说'我'，没人会在意。

And it's really good for, storytelling because people relate and say you, and if I said I, no one would care.

但我从未感到安全，去表达和展现自己，因为我总认为如果我那样做，坏事就会发生，而坏事几乎总是会发生。

But I never felt safe, expressing and getting out there because I always thought if I do that, bad things will happen because bad things almost always do happen.

但实际上，我只是不知道当我敞开心扉时该如何为自己辩护。

But in reality, I just didn't know how to stand up for myself when I did open up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我当时正在和朋友讨论这个问题，他有讨好型人格倾向。

So I I was having this discussion with a friend, and he has people pleasing tendencies.

我也有讨好型人格倾向。

I have people pleasing tendencies.

我们当时在说，我认为解决方法在于韧性，而不是封闭自己永远不敞开心扉。

And we were saying I think the solution is, it's about resilience as opposed to shelling up and never opening up.

关键在于敞开心扉，如果受伤了就重新站起来，而不是永远不去尝试或永远躲在自己的壳里。

It's about opening up, and if you get hurt, you get back up instead of just never trying or never coming out of your shell.

我不知道这是否属实，目前我正在尝试这种策略。

And I don't know if that's true or not, I'm workshopping that tactic right now.

就我看来，这似乎比永远不开放要好一些。

That as far as I can tell, that seems to me to be a bit of a better solution than never opening up.

完全同意。

Definitely agree.

我觉得自己很难进行那些表面的对话，因为作为治疗师，我会直接深入本质。

I think and it's hard for me to engage in, like, more surface level conversations because as a therapist, I go right to it.

但我确实觉得你说坏事几乎总会发生这个观点很有趣。

But I do think it's interesting how you said that bad things almost always do happen.

这是对世界和人生的一种有趣理解。

That's an interesting understanding of the world and life.

我认为，对我来说，这意味着你的讨好型人格可能是某种创伤经历的结果。

I think that, to me, that means that your people pleasing is probably a result of some sort of trauma experience.

如果坏事总是发生，那意味着什么？

If bad things always happen, what does that mean?

我无法准确指出某些具体时刻，但作为最小的孩子，你几乎总是在妥协。

I could never pinpoint, certain moments, but I think I was the youngest child, and so as the youngest, you're almost always giving in.

是的。

Yeah.

我想你只是被训练成那样，我也是被训练成那样的。

And I think you're just trained I am just trained to do that.

这种训练在成年后对你有利，但方式非常糟糕。

And that training serves you well in adulthood, but in very bad ways.

我听到你说的是，基本上你总是讨好别人以避免被拒绝的羞辱，或者不敢提出自己的需求，而对方基本上是在告诉你，你不值得被这样照顾。

What I hear you say is that basically, you people please to avoid the humiliation of hearing no, or asking for what you need, and a person basically telling you, you're not important enough for that accommodation.

就像我们回到那个优步的例子，如果你告诉优步司机你感到冷，而他却说，哦，可我觉得热，然后继续开着冷气。

Like, when we go back to the example of being in the Uber, if you tell that Uber driver that you're cold and goes, oh, well, I'm hot, and keeps it on.

现在的情况就像，我已经主动表达了需求。

Now it's like, I put myself out there.

我承认自己觉得冷，而他根本不在乎。

I admitted I was cold, and he didn't care.

他没有做出任何调整。

He didn't make the accommodation.

所以也许不经历这种拒绝，比冒险争取自己想要的东西更容易。

So maybe it's easier to not experience that rejection than it is to take the chance of getting what you want.

确实。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

也可能是因为我需要更焦虑，而不是更抑郁。

It could also be that I need to be more anxious as opposed to more depressed.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

有趣的视角。

Interesting perspective.

我刚想到这个。

I thought of this.

好的。

Okay.

因为我总是在事后反思。

Because like I'm always thinking in hindsight.

你知道，当你和别人互动时。

You know, you you have an interaction with someone.

你会想，我表现得怎么样？

You're like, did I come off?

太过了。

It's too strong.

我为什么没直接告诉Uber司机把空调关掉？

Did I I could why didn't I just tell the Uber driver to turn the air conditioning off?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但如果我焦虑的话，我会提前想，哦，我会觉得冷的。

But if I was anxious, I would look forward and be like, oh, I'm gonna be cold.

如果我不关空调，我会后悔的。

I'm gonna regret this if I don't turn off the AC.

会感冒之类的。

Gonna get a cold or something.

所以出于焦虑，我会说，嘿，你能...所以我试图避免灾难发生。是的。

And so out of anxiety, I'll I'll say, hey, can you and so I'll I'll try and beat the disaster Yeah.

而不是让灾难发生，然后抑郁地回头看。

Instead of let the disaster happen and then just look back in depression.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我能看出那种表情，我认为焦虑是双向的，因为换位思考，你可能在想：如果我告诉他我觉得冷，就会这样那样。

I could see that look, and I think anxiety works both ways because, alternatively, you could be thinking, if I tell him about the fact that I'm cold, then this will happen, this will happen.

焦虑几乎就是在设想所有最坏的情况，你懂吗？

Anxiety is just looking at every worst case scenario almost, you know?

所以我认为即使你非常焦虑，也可能是同样的处境。

So I think even if you were super anxious, it could be the same situation.

那么他人的看法如何影响你与自我的关系？

So how did the opinions of others impact your relationship with yourself?

他人的看法确实会影响我，尤其当我在乎那些人时。

The opinions of others can really impact me, especially if I care about those people.

我学到的是，为了让批评和负面评价不影响我，我必须同时忽略正面评价和赞美。

And what I've learned is that in order to for the criticism and for the negative opinion to not affect me, I have to, also forget about the positive opinions and the complementary opinions.

因此我一直把社交媒体上的各种意见、评论、点赞都视为糖分。

And so I always saw opinions, comments, likes, anything on social media even as sugar.

我们都知道不能摄入过多糖分。

We know not to take too much sugar.

所以我心里明白不能接受太多恭维，不能沉溺于赞美。

So I know in my mind not to take too much compliment, not to take too much praise.

是的。

Yeah.

这对你不好。

It's not good for you.

是啊。

Yeah.

少量是可以的。

And a little bit's fine.

一点点糖没关系。

A little bit of sugar's fine.

不过别吃太多，否则第二天早上会不舒服。

Don't take too much, though, because then you'll feel sick the next morning.

当你得不到时，就会出现戒断反应。

You'll get withdrawals, when it doesn't come.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我想反过来问你。

So I guess right back at you.

他人的看法如何影响你与自己的关系？

How does the opinion of others affect, you know, your relationship, with yourself?

是的，我一直太在意别人的看法。

Yeah, I've always cared way too much what people think.

我其实记得2019年和我奶奶一起乘车时，她给我的印象总是很深刻——她是一个教堂的创始人，你知道的，一个小教堂，有很多意见，尤其是我祖父去世后，她就像是教会的领袖。

I actually remember, I was riding with my grandma back in 2019, and she always struck me as someone who just she was the founder of a church, you know, small church, lots of opinions, especially once my grandfather passed away and she was like the head of the ministry.

于是我就问，奶奶，你是怎么应对这么多人的看法的？

And so I was like, grandma, how do you deal with the opinions of so many people?

然后她说，斯蒂芬妮，他们只是普通人。

And she was like, Stephanie, they're just people.

我当时完全不明白。

That made no sense to me.

现在我还是不明白。

That still makes no sense to me.

因为我总觉得，某种程度上我们总把别人捧上神坛，这很有趣——毕竟作为人类，我自己的观点也充满缺陷且不断变化。

Because I was just like, I guess, in a way, we kinda put people on this pedestal, which is so interesting because as a human being myself, my opinions are so flawed and they change.

但我却过分重视别人对我的看法，仿佛他们的观点不会改变或永远正确。

But I look at other people's views or opinions of me and give them so much weight and look at them as though they can't change or that they're correct.

所以有时我会回想那次对话来提醒自己：这些都只是普通人的看法。

And so sometimes I just reflect on that conversation to remind myself like, these are just people.

有时这招管用，有时不管用，但别人的看法对我来说一直很重要。

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the opinion of people has always mattered a lot to me.

说到出生顺序，我是家里的长子。

Think we're talking about birth order, I'm the oldest.

我觉得父母对第一个孩子往往倾注了最大的心血。

And I think sometimes with the oldest parents, that's when they they put their best foot forward.

就像他们总想培养出下一个顶级运动员或大政治家之类的。

Like, they wanna raise the next, you know, top athlete or the next big politician, whatever.

所以他们有时会在长子/女身上投入比后面孩子更多的精力。

So they put a lot more energy sometimes to that oldest child than they do with the subsequent children.

所以这种要表现出色的压力确实存在。

And so there's this pressure to do very well.

就我个人而言，即使成年后，我依然渴望听到父亲对我说'我为你感到骄傲'。

And so I know for me, even as an adult, I still crave that I'm proud of you from my dad.

你知道吗？

You know?

他确实会这样说，但我从别人那里听到的次数比从他那里听到的更多。

And he he gives it to me, but I hear it more from other people than from him.

每次有人对我说'天啊，你爸爸真为你骄傲'时，

And I always every time somebody's like, oh my gosh, your dad is so proud of you.

我总是在想，真希望他能亲口告诉我这句话，你懂吗？

I'm always thinking, oh, I wish he told me that, you know?

对。

Right.

但我了解他。

But he I know he is.

但我想对我来说，这一切的起点就是渴望得到父母的认可，然后扩展到老师等权威人物，学校管理层，再到你的老板，最后是所有人。

But I think that's where it started for me is just feeling like you want that parental approval, then expanse to the authorities of teachers and, you know, administration at your school, then it's your boss, then it's everybody.

你知道，每个人都有自己的看法。

You know, everybody has an opinion.

而且随着年龄增长，我认为我们会越来越确信自己的观点是正确的。

And as the older we get, I think the more confident we get that our opinions are right.

如果有人持负面看法，尤其是在网络空间里，很难简单地说那只是一个人的观点。

And if someone has a negative opinion, especially being in the online space, it is hard to just say, that's one person's opinion.

但我很喜欢你说的这一点，你必须给予正面评价与负面评价同等的重视。

But I love what you said about, you have to give similar weight to the positive opinions just like you do the negative.

我认为当你在网上活跃多年后，会逐渐意识到这一点——即使是完全相同的内容，最初的评论可能都非常正面。

And that's something that I think when you're online for years, kind of you come to a point because I'm like, everybody it could be the exact same content, and all the initial comments are so positive.

然后只要有一个人说了什么，风向就会突然转变。

And then one person says something, and it takes a turn.

你知道，很多人都会随大流，不管是正面还是负面。

You know, and a lot of people kinda follow the crowd, whether it's positive or negative.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

你甚至可以从数据上明显看出这一点。

You can even look at the numbers of it, really.

但困难在于，社交媒体上的评论区通常并不能代表大多数观众的真实共识。

And but what's hard is that on social media, the comment section is generally not, the general consensus of most of your viewers.

我一直认为这是网上餐厅评价存在的一个大问题。

I always thought that was a big problem with, reviews online of restaurants.

确实。

True.

谁会有时间专门打开应用、登录账号，然后给这家餐厅写评价呢？

Who has the time to pull out their app, sign into the app, and make a review of this restaurant?

有时间做这种事的人，要么是很快就被惹恼了，要么就是对太多小事耿耿于怀的人。

Whoever has the time to do that gets angry pretty quick or gets is a little bitter about a little too many things.

也许评论区也是同样的道理。

Maybe the comment section is the same thing.

我认为评论区代表了一种人群特征。

I think the comment section is a demographic.

这是一种特定的观众类型。

It's a type of viewer.

不过它并不代表你的全部观众。

It's not your overall audience, though.

这个观点很有道理。

That's a good point.

是啊。

Yeah.

你觉得你的评论大部分是负面还是正面的？

Would you say that most of your comments are more negative or more positive?

哦，它们全都

Oh, they're all

基本上都是正面的，我的理论是：那些全是正面评论的人，黑子们肯定躲在某个地方。

they're all mostly all positive, my theory on that is that whoever has all positive comments, the haters are out there somewhere.

没错。

Yeah.

确实。

Are.

他们潜伏着。

They're they're lurking.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们正等待出击的时机。

They're waiting for their moment to strike.

一旦你搞砸了，立刻会有负面评论涌现，他们就会接踵而至。

And the second you screw up, there'll be a few negative comments, and then here they come.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后一切就突然发生了。

And then it happens all at once.

我想事情就是这样运作的。

That's how that works, I think.

没错。

Yeah.

所以他们全都在那儿。

So they're they're all there.

他们全都在那儿等着。

They're all there waiting.

我等着哪天被集体抵制。

I'm waiting to get canceled one day.

嗯。

Yeah.

每个人都会这样。

Everyone does.

我知道。

I know.

这太可怕了。

It's it's terrifying.

但你刚才提到，你仍在寻求父亲的认可。

But, in you were talking about how you're you still look for that good job from your dad.

是的。

Yeah.

谁的认可让你感觉最好？

Whose approval feels the best?

陌生人在这个排序中处于什么位置？

And where do strangers fall into that ranking?

哦，这是个好问题。

Oh, that's a good question.

我依然认为我父亲排在首位。

I still think I still think my dad's at the top.

没错。

Yeah.

我确实这么认为。

I definitely do.

我的家庭环境很不同，我母亲长期与心理健康问题抗争。

My household dynamic was very different in that, my mom, she struggled with a lot of mental health issues.

她在成长过程中经历了太多创伤，能建立起现在的生活真是奇迹，但你知道，在幕后，你会更近距离地感受到这些。

She experienced so much trauma growing up, and it's really miraculous, the life she was able to build, but, you know, behind the scenes, you kind of experience that on a closer level at a closer level.

所以我父亲可以说被赋予了英雄般的角色。

So my dad was kind of given this, I would say, hero role.

就像，你是那个会拯救我们的父母，他们结婚了什么的，但你是会把我们从暴君或那个人手中拯救出来的父母。

Like, you're the parent that's gonna save us from like, they were married and everything, but you're the parent that's gonna save us from this tyrant or this person, whatever.

无论当时发生了什么。

Whatever was happening in the moment.

并不总是这样，但你知道，有些时刻就是那样。

It wasn't always like that, but you know, some moments were like that.

我们和他之间从未真正有过那种关系。

And we never really ever had that with him.

所以我认为我把他视为稳定和安全的象征，随之而来的是满足感。

So I think I view him as like stability, security, and with that comes contentment.

所以有时候，看到那种自豪的时刻，或者知道我在做一个他真正关心的项目，那对我来说意味着一切。

So sometimes, like, seeing that moment of pride or knowing I'm working on a project that he really cares about, that means everything to me.

当他关心的事情落空时，我觉得比全世界看到失败更让我尴尬。

And when things that he cares about, you know, when they fall through, I think I'm more embarrassed about that than the world seeing something fail.

有时我会等上几个月才告诉他某个项目，只是因为我紧张它不会成功，我担心他永远不会说什么刻薄的话，你知道吗？

Sometimes I wait months before I even tell him about a certain project just because I'm nervous it's not going to pan out, and I'm worried about He would never say anything mean, you know?

我爸爸不是那样的人，但我不想让他感到失望。

My dad's not like that, but I just don't want him to feel disappointed.

尽管他没有表达出来，我只是以某种方式内化了它。

Even though he's not expressing that, I just internalize it in a certain way.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我非常尊重我父亲的意见。

I think I respect my dad's opinion a lot.

所以很多时候，我因为害怕而不敢向他寻求建议

And then so oftentimes, I won't call him for advice because I'm scared

害怕自己是错的

That I'm wrong.

害怕自己是错的

That I'm wrong.

而且因为我太尊重他，内心深处总觉得无论怎样他都是对的

And because I respect it so much that I know there's something inside that says he is right no matter what.

是啊

Yeah.

是啊

Yeah.

但我觉得最不明智的事情之一就是过分听从长辈的话

But I think the one of the widest things we can do is not listen to our elders too closely.

确实

True.

他们的话有道理，但探索的过程、犯错后自己领悟的价值更大，这比只被告知什么是错的却从不尝试要有意义得多

They have things to say, but there's a great value in discovery, in doing the wrong thing and learning for yourself, as opposed to learning what the wrong thing is and never trying the wrong thing.

是啊

Yeah.

对我来说一个重要时刻是买房那会儿，那个夏天简直疯狂

I think a big moment for me was when I was buying my house, and at that point, it was a crazy summer.

我在同一个夏天里订婚、结婚还买了房

Like, I got engaged, married, bought a house all in the same summer.

大家都以为我怀孕了，因为事情发展得太快，其实我并没有怀孕。

Everybody thought I was pregnant, because it was happening so fast, I wasn't pregnant.

我只是准备好要结婚了。

I was just ready to be married.

我们已经在一起六年了。

We've been together for six years.

就在我买房的那个时刻，我不断征求父亲对每件事的意见，我需要他的认可，比如'你觉得这个怎么样？'

And I think that in that moment when I was buying my house, and I was asking my dad for his feedback on everything, and I was just I needed his approval, like, What do you think about this?

我不想做出错误的决定。

I don't wanna make the wrong decision.

我突然意识到，我父亲从未买过房子。

It hit me, like, my dad's never bought a house before.

你知道，那时我正在经历超出他人生经验的事情。

You know, at that point, I was living an experience outside of his experience.

我不能再把他当作能给我所有建议的人了。

Like, I couldn't go to him as the person that could give me all of the advice.

但他总是有很多意见，你懂吧？

And he always has opinions, you know?

他确实希望我能...比如他推荐了验房师之类的人选，但他自己从未买过房子。

He definitely wanted me to have, you know, he had recommendations for who should do my inspection and everything, but, he'd never bought a house before.

我们小时候住的房子，是我母亲在认识他之前买的。

We lived in a house growing up, and my mom bought it before she met him.

就在那一刻我突然明白：我的人生已经到了需要经历一些无法依赖父亲建议的阶段了。

And so, it was just this moment where I was like, I'm at a point where I'm having experiences that I can't lean on my dad for.

顺便说一下，我妈妈去世了，所以这就是为什么我在成年后经常提到他。

My mom passed away, by the way, so that's why I'm referring to him a lot in adulthood.

但处于这种超现实的境地很有趣，哇，我正经历着我父亲从未经历过的人生阶段。

But it was just interesting to be in this very surreal position of like, wow, I'm in a stage of life that my dad never was in.

而且，你知道，这有点像第一次不穿救生衣游泳。

And, you know, it's kind of like swimming without a life vest for the first time.

所以我同意你的观点，认识到一个人年纪大并不一定意味着他们知道所有答案。

So I agree with you about kind of recognizing just because a person is older doesn't necessarily mean they have all of the answers.

有趣的话题。

Fun stuff.

我

I

知道。

know.

我们正在互相做心理治疗。

We're doing a therapy session for each other.

好的。

Okay.

这个有点长，但我要我要我要试试看。

This is a long one, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it.

好吗？

Alright?

好的。

Okay.

你说人际关系之所以困难，是因为人们总是以他人的行为作为衡量自己成功的标准。

You say that relationships are difficult because people base their metric of success on what they see other people do.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是否属于关系中的冒名顶替综合症？

Is this a form of relationship impostor syndrome?

情侣们该如何打破这种模式呢？

And how do couples break out of that mold?

哦，这个问题问得好。

Oh, that's a good question.

关系中的冒名顶替综合症。

Relationship impostor syndrome.

我不确定是否该称之为冒名顶替综合症，因为我理解的冒名顶替综合症是指我们通过某种方式让组织或个人误判了我们的能力，并时刻担心被揭穿真实水平的那种恐惧感。

I don't know if I would say it's impostor syndrome only because I think of impostor syndrome as a feeling where we've basically tricked an organization or a person into thinking we're one way, and it's that constant fear of being exposed for not really being that.

你看，我自称是治疗师。

You know, I call myself a therapist.

你真的算是治疗师吗？

Are you really a therapist?

我自称是艺术家。

I call myself an artist.

自称是演员。

Call myself an actor.

你知道，总有人会质疑这些身份。

You know, and someone kind of tearing that down.

所以我不认为这是冒名顶替综合症，因为我不认为自己不了解情况，也许有些相似之处，但基本上，我认为我们对关系应该如何发展有清晰的轨迹。

So I don't think of it as impostor syndrome, because I don't think I don't know, maybe there are some parallels, but I think, basically, that we have clear trajectories of how relationships are supposed to develop.

遇到生命中的挚爱，最终，你们可能会同居。

Meet the love of your life, eventually, you might move in together.

也许你们会订婚、结婚、生子、买房，无论顺序如何。

Maybe you get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you buy a house, whatever the order is.

我认为有时我们不够停下来问问自己，比如，我为什么要这样做？

And I think sometimes we don't stop enough to ask ourselves, like, why am I doing this?

你知道吗，也许你确实找到了生命中的挚爱，但你们真的需要同居吗？

Know, like, maybe you did find the love of your life, but do you guys need to live together?

如果你们同居了，真的需要同床共枕吗？

If you live together, do you need to share a bed?

比如，你真的需要每晚都和那个人同床共枕度过余生吗？

Like, do you have to sleep in the same bed with that person every night for the rest of your life?

我认为有时我们只是太固守成规，认为事情就该如此。

I think sometimes we just get so stuck and this is just how it's always done.

如果我不这样做，也许那才是冒名顶替综合症的部分。因为问题是，如果我不这样做，我的关系还正当吗？

And if I don't do it this way, maybe that is the impostor syndrome part Because the question is, if I don't do it this way, is my relationship legitimate?

如果人们发现我们不同床共枕，他们会怎么想，

How would people feel if they found out that we don't sleep in the same bed,

比如说？

for example?

是啊。

Yeah.

那么我们该如何衡量，该用什么标准来评估关系呢？

How how should we like, what what should our metric of relationships be then?

我们应该和谁比较呢？

Who should we be comparing ourselves to?

我认为关键在于避免比较，因为健康关系有太多不同的模式。

I think the the challenge is to try to avoid the comparison because there's so many different models for what a healthy relationship looks like.

而且十年前你们关系中看似美好的事物，如今可能已不再适用。所以我觉得关键是要经常审视什么对你有用、什么没用。

And even what looked good in your relationship ten years ago might not look good today, You know, so I think it's very much about checking in with yourself about what is and isn't working for you.

这让我们回到关于讨好型人格的话题。我工作中常见到这样的情况：很多夫妻在一起三十年，却不敢告诉伴侣你不喜欢他们的某些行为。

And I think this takes us back to the people pleasing part of the conversation because if you're afraid to open up to your partner, which is what I see a lot, a lot of the work I do with clients is like, you guys have been together thirty years and you're afraid to tell your partner that you don't like X, Y, Z that they do.

因此我认为关键在于坦诚面对现状，表达当前期望，并与伴侣协商解决。

And so I think that it's about being honest about where you're at today, what your hopes are today, and seeing how you and your partner can negotiate that.

比如我对我丈夫说：我觉得我们共用卫生间不太合理。

If I say to my husband, like, I don't think it's making sense for us to share the same bathroom.

我们总是因为卫生间问题争吵。

Like, we're constantly getting in arguments about the bathroom.